Speaking of Nice Guys™

Check this out from PassiveAgressiveNotes.com:

k, so court in michigan met this guy out at a bar. he seemed harmless enough, but court knew right he wasn’t her type. still, she didn’t have the heart to give him a flat-out “no” when he asked for her number. (she couldn’t give him a fake one, either, ’cause he the did the “dial his number into the phone and call” thing.)
says court: “the first time he called, i talked to him and decided right then i definitely wasn’t interested.” by the end of the conversation, she figured he’d gotten the message…but then he kept calling. and then, texting. when she didn’t respond, court says, “i assumed he’d take the hint…but i’m not too sure he did.” um, yeah, you could say that.


Um, scary. Entitled much?

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94 Comments

  1. alixana
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    Oh yes, I’ve come across this. I tend to give flat-out nos, but it doesn’t seem to elicit any more respect than women who don’t. It just speeds up the process of them declaring me shallow and bitchy. I always love how we’re accused of being those things for not liking that specific dude. I like some guys. I don’t like others. Some guys like me. Some don’t. Christ, we’re not, to use the buzzword of the week, entitled to the attentions of absolutely everyone we want it from.
    I’ve been trying Match.com lately, and while I didn’t connect it to this prior to this post, I realize now I’ve been very consciously avoiding Nice Guys. Anyone who has rants in their profiles about those terrible women who don’t respond to their winks (sort of like pokes on Facebook) or emails just got an automatic “moving along now” from me. One guy even had a huuuuge rant about all the women who went out with him once or twice and then never responded to him again – his theory is that they weren’t really serious about dating and were just interested in getting a free dinner out of him. I was gobsmacked that he arrived at that conclusion, instead of thinking, “Maybe they just didn’t like me, maybe we didn’t click.”
    To make it even more entitled and priceless, he followed his rant up for a request that the women who email him have straight, white teeth.

  2. preppy
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    wow. i have definitely dealt with men like this. actually, more than i can count during the course of my life. it seems much easier to blame the woman/girl than to blame yourself for being too lame/weird/unfortunately scary to date.

  3. VT Idealist
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    Because we all know that best way to get a woman who turne you down to change her is to call her a bitch.
    In all seriousness, though, it is absolutely terrifing how quickly some men can go from polite flirting to possibly homicidal when they get rejected.

  4. Meep
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Your comment reminded me that I keep seeing the “but we bought you dinner, you owe us sex/time/a relationship” thing coming up and every time I see it I’m like “woah, if it’s that important to you, don’t buy my meal in the first place – and if you already have and are disappointed that I’m not in bed with you, tell me and I’ll pay you back and you can get out of my life.”

  5. Mighty Ponygirl
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    “I didn’t have the heart to give him a flat-out ‘no.’”
    Um, something tells me that it wasn’t so much “didn’t have the heart” as “got a whif of this guy’s aggressive assholishness and didn’t want to have him unload that anger and assholishness when I was standing right there.” Yeah, flat-out no’s are great, except when you’re not sure if you’re talking to Ricky Ticky Timebomb.
    I mean, to go directly from “wanna get together sometime” to “fine, be a bitch then” in such a breathtakingly-short period of time is a real feat. Not exactly the sort of behavior that comes out of left field with no warning.

  6. https://me.yahoo.com/a/sdefjwgos5lv_EpYhbS2bYdosQkdDc7cmUotyniTXQ--#cb044
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Stop “giving hints”, start saying no.

  7. preppy
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    riiiiight. if we just used the word ‘no’, no one would ever hurt/insult us. why didn’t we think of that earlier?

  8. https://me.yahoo.com/a/sdefjwgos5lv_EpYhbS2bYdosQkdDc7cmUotyniTXQ--#cb044
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    “”I tend to give flat-out nos, but it doesn’t seem to elicit any more respect than women who don’t. It just speeds up the process of them declaring me shallow and bitchy.”"
    I disagree. I have many friends who claim that men just quickly label them “bitch” and/or “shallow” when saying no directly. Which I found weird, why does it happend to them, I’ve never seen it myself or with other friends.
    So I go out with these people, and yes, they say no, and they say it directly, but they say it with
    - A condescending tone
    - Rolling their eyes
    - A body-language that suggests she just had a whiff of something disgusting
    Its extremely rare that if a NO is said with respect, compassion and understanding, that it meets hostility.

  9. DeafBrownTrash
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    There are days when I am thankful for being Deaf. I can pretend to be mute or not understand if an annoying, repulsive man approaches me and tries to flirt with me.

  10. https://me.yahoo.com/a/sdefjwgos5lv_EpYhbS2bYdosQkdDc7cmUotyniTXQ--#cb044
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    “”riiiiight. if we just used the word ‘no’, no one would ever hurt/insult us.”"
    Sarcasm always works for ignoring subtleties and fine distinctions when we decide to over-simplify the world.
    If you claim hints never solve the problem, but you have to resort to saying NO to the problem eventually.
    Then why isn’t it just wiser to say no from the get-go? In what area of life does post-poning the problem ever work?

  11. alixana
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    Oh man, sometimes I’ve gotten the WORST harassment from guys when I can’t hear them in very loud bars. I’m not deaf, but I do have a severe hearing impairment, and if a guy approaches me and says something and I say, “I’m sorry, I can’t hear you,” their response is to put their lips right next to my ear to try to speak directly into my ear. WELL, that just removes my ability to see their lips moving (I can’t read lips, but seeing lips moving in conjunction with hearing what they’re saying is essential for me to understand conversations), so I’ll pull back and shake my head and point to my ear and say, “I can’t hear you, I’m sorry.”
    At which point I sometimes get a disgusted look, a dismissive wave of the hand, and a “Fine then, bitch.”

  12. https://me.yahoo.com/a/sdefjwgos5lv_EpYhbS2bYdosQkdDc7cmUotyniTXQ--#cb044
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    “”Um, something tells me that it wasn’t so much “didn’t have the heart” as “got a whif of this guy’s aggressive assholishness and didn’t want to have him unload that anger and assholishness when I was standing right there.”"”
    Except she didn’t say NO in 1 further conversation that was not in person. She had an entire conversation where she “hoping he’d get the message”.

  13. BackOfBusEleven
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    Saying no right then and there is hard, but it’s for the best. In a bar, there are bartenders and patrons around to back you up when someone harasses you. If he started yelling at her and said all of those things he said in the text messages at the bar, he’d be thrown out. Maybe he wouldn’t have said that stuff in public, since it’s very easy to unleash your inner asshole behind the cover of a cell phone.

  14. llevinso
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Saying no is #1 not easy and #2 not always effective either.
    I’ve said no to guys before and sometimes that in and of itself makes me a “bitch.” So then I’ve tried to let them down more gently while still saying a clear no. That has turned into the guy thinking he can change my mind. Ugh, that’s frustrating. In the end, I still end up being the “bitch.”
    My best friend got hit on by her real estate agent. First off, it was completely unprofessional of him so it put her off and secondly, she just wasn’t interested in him in the first place. She told him she did not want to go out with him and that they should just keep it professional. Did that stop him from constantly texting her and asking for dates? No. She had to keep politely talking to him however because of their business relationship. Once she responded saying she had other plans (which wasn’t a lie) to which he simply replied “Tough Shit.” Why does this man, who she’s already turned down, think he’s entitled to a date with her? And being so aggressive about it is downright scary. I’ve advised her to speak to his supervisor and switch agents.

  15. https://me.yahoo.com/a/sdefjwgos5lv_EpYhbS2bYdosQkdDc7cmUotyniTXQ--#cb044
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    “”"Saying no is #1 not easy and #2 not always effective either. “”"
    Its more effective than postponing with “hinting” and “hoping he gets the message”.
    The fact that it doesn’t “always work”, is hardly a reason for not using something that works much better.
    ==
    since we’re into anecdotal stories

    I have a friend who NEVER ever has had a bad reaction, and she gets hit on like 10 times a day. I’m serious. Of course, she says no to each and every single one of them.
    She lives in the exact same city as all these other friends of mine, who wonder why they always get bad reactions to their NOs.
    Its in the attitude, tonality. Not the actual no.

  16. preppy
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    you’re simplifying a totally un-simple situation. as if saying ‘no’ works any better than being subtle. most of us have tried both. some of us that said no have been killed for it. women are taught to be “nice”. not being liked is a CURSE that means you are a failure. so we are socialized to not say NO. that doesn’t mean we don’t try. it’s just people don’t seem to care when we say no ANYWAY. i do not want to have a semantics argument with you about words when really what we are talking about is overall treatment and opinions of women being ‘available’ for men, no matter HOW they try and turn them down.
    and i have every right to give a sarcastic response to such a generalization.

  17. https://me.yahoo.com/a/sdefjwgos5lv_EpYhbS2bYdosQkdDc7cmUotyniTXQ--#cb044
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    Of course you have the right to reply with sarcasm.
    I also have the right to give my opinion of what sarcasm.
    My question is simple:
    - Why are there women who are always direct, and always say no up-front… but don’t get hostile reactions?

  18. DeafBrownTrash
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    haha, I’ve been there when those morons would whisper to me in my ear (didn’t they see my hearing aid?!). I also read lips, so I need to look at someone’s face when they speak.
    my friends have told me that I’ve been called a BITCH and SLUT whenever I’d walk outside and guys would call out to me, but I didn’t hear them, then they’d insult me, at which my friends would yell back at those assholes. I’m glad I have friends who stick up for me.

  19. llevinso
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    It’s not always the attitude and tonality. That’s just like saying, well it’s the girls’ faults because they’re just rejecting them they wrong way (as if every guy responds to the same attitudes and tones in the first place?). Now we’re saying “no” wrong? It’s getting waaaay to nitpicky if you ask me.
    If the guy you’re talking to is a huge entitled jackass it doesn’t really matter what tone you use when you say “no.” It doesn’t matter HOW you let him down, he’s still going to think it’s because you’re a big bitch. And in some of the more severe cases he’ll stalk and harass you because of it.

  20. Lilitu
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    No, what she had was another conversation where she obviously thought her disinterest was clear. And even if it wasn’t, look at the time stamps on these text messages. She doesn’t answer in less than 6 hours, so he starts calling her a bitch. She understandably doesn’t respond to that, so he keeps flipping the fuck out. This guy is a fucking nutcase.

  21. alixana
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    All of this commenter’s posts just illustrate how there’s NO RIGHT WAY that we can turn unwanted attention down without being labeled a bitch.
    If we hint around, well, then we should just say no instead. But if we say no, then we have to do it with the RIGHT tone and the RIGHT body language.
    Which of course, I might add, will be interpreted differently by every man who it gets used on. Maybe we were politely toned but we DIDN’T SMILE. Or we smiled but it was a MOCKING SMILE. Or if we’re firm yet polite then it will be considered BITCHY. Or if it’s polite and perfect, then it signals that we’re open to being nudged in the direction of saying yes. At which point a second and third “no” get even more forceful and then suddenly, we’re a bitch.
    In other words, all along we’re being told, “DANCE, FUCKING PUPPET, DANCE.” It’s the rejection, straight up, not how the rejection was delivered.

  22. katie80andstuff
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    All my female friends and myself can attest to llevinso’s statement that saying “no” in a gentle, respectful way results in the guy continuing to bother us.
    Further, I think people are missing the fact that women and girls are socialized to not rock the boat, to be nice and agreeable and that for many women, telling someone a flat-out, firm “no” is extremely difficult. Furthermore, everyone has been rejected by someone at some point. Yes it stings. No you are not allowed to call the total stranger vile names for doing so. Be a human being.

  23. Mighty Ponygirl
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    That’s taking a lot on faith. What if the mob sided with him, and not you?

  24. https://me.yahoo.com/a/sdefjwgos5lv_EpYhbS2bYdosQkdDc7cmUotyniTXQ--#cb044
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    You’re twisting my point.
    Let’s talk about firing employees. Most people feel hurt and lash out at the employer in equal levels.
    If I say that the employer should take into consideration the way the rejection is done, am I saying the employer is wrong for rejecting or that its the employer’s fault?
    Heck, it could be the worst employee on the planet, but that doesn’t change the employer’s tactic changes the outcome.

  25. Lilitu
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    Sure as hell hasn’t been rare for me. It hasn’t been the majority of the time, but it definitely hasn’t been rare.

  26. llevinso
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    You’ve touched on such an important point that I think, unfortunately, is lost on so many, including the poster you’re replying to.
    Women are CONDITIONED to be nice. I think that is one of the main reasons we try to “let men down easy” or give them hints that we’re not interested instead of simply saying no. We’re not supposed to be assertive like that. I mean, this is Feminism 101 stuff. We overstep those bounds and all of a sudden we’re a bitch. There’s no real way to win.

  27. https://me.yahoo.com/a/sdefjwgos5lv_EpYhbS2bYdosQkdDc7cmUotyniTXQ--#cb044
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    All my female friends can attest to the fact that they never get hostile responses or even a bad reaction when they say no in a respectful manner.
    Its about being firm+strong+direct+gentle.
    Most people who claim they gave a gentle-no… but kept being pursued… really were just giving hints… like “Oh, mmmm I think I might not be able to make it” or “No, I’m not really thirsty” or such. That’s not a NO.
    No, is N-O, I’m not interested, but thank you.

  28. https://me.yahoo.com/a/sdefjwgos5lv_EpYhbS2bYdosQkdDc7cmUotyniTXQ--#cb044
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    I agree with you that women are conditioned to be nice and overly-agreeing. I agree this hurts women.
    What I am pointing out is that however that when women finally escape that role they tend to overcompensate to the other extreme.
    Most women go from overly-nice to “screw you if you can’t take no for an answer”
    There is a middle-ground.

  29. Lilitu
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    Really? Never? Not once? I call bullshit on you having female friends.

  30. Shy Mox
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    This is part of the reason I hardly go to busy bars anymore. I’m small and soft spoken, and I do reject very nicely, which results in either a) Being called a bitch, b) if lets say a guy was trying to get me to dance (I just don’t dance, doesn’t matter who asks) they try to drag me to the dance floor anyway or worse, c) guy gets violent.
    Its really sad too because while bartenders and bouncers will side with me, there’s a group of girls I don’t hang out with anymore because they think I’m being a prude.

  31. https://me.yahoo.com/a/sdefjwgos5lv_EpYhbS2bYdosQkdDc7cmUotyniTXQ--#cb044
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Ok, I did BS. Make that 99% of the time it doesn’t happen, not “never”
    Large enough in comparison to others who get negative reactions like 50% of the time.
    The point remains, there are huge individual differences.

  32. https://me.yahoo.com/a/sdefjwgos5lv_EpYhbS2bYdosQkdDc7cmUotyniTXQ--#cb044
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    The guy is a nutcase.
    That doesn’t change my point which you confirmed. She thought he got the message, but never actually said “no”. She had a conversation with him where she was “hoping” he’d got the message. Who ever “hopes” after saying N-O.

  33. llevinso
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    Now you’re just saying that we’re basically not telling the truth. We say we clearly say no but apparently, according to you, it’s obviously not in a respectful way. Or we were hinting around it and never said a clear no. Otherwise why would the guy be acting so crazy?
    *cough cough* ENTITLEMENT! *cough cough*
    It’s getting pretty condescending to be honest.
    But hey, don’t take my word for it. Please, read what I wrote and then decide for yourself what my own experiences have really been like.

  34. Lilitu
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    She thought she was clear, which means she obviously said something to the effect of ‘no’. But it doesn’t matter anyway, since a guy who flips out this much over a six hour lapse in text responses does not hear the word no whether it’s spoken or not.

  35. VT Idealist
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    That first line should be ‘change her mind’

  36. a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    Okay, you’re obviously not a woman?
    I’m assertive, but polite I think.
    I’ve had guys go crazy on me, even as others take the rejection well.
    Your friend whose never had a bad reaction? Maybe she’s lucky, or maybe she has a different definition of bad reaction than I do.
    However, the point would be that men who are offended by being turned down, no matter how they’re turned down, are expressing a form of entitlement.
    The boss-employee scenario you talk about? The boss actually has some legal obligations to his employee. There are certain reasons for which he or she is not allowed to fire him or her, for instance.
    You have no obligation, as a woman, to random guys in a bar or on a street. If I’m trying to hit on a guy in a bar (yeah I’ve done it) I’m not going to act like an asshole if he’s disinterested, I’m going to feel like an ass. And that’s a big difference, I feel, in how many men and women are socialized.

  37. norbizness
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    “Check this out from PassiveAgressiveNotes.com…”
    Yeah, why don’t I do exactly that?

  38. LindseyLou
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    You’re absolutely right that it depends on the guy. There was a time when I WAS a total bitch when I turned a guy down (due mostly to a misunderstanding) and he never asked me out again. On the other hand, I politely told one guy no and actually gave him a legitimate reason (moving away in a month), and he asked again like 15 seconds later. Um, I haven’t changed my mind in a minute, buddy.

  39. Lilitu
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    She thought–i.e. not hoped–she was clear, which means she obviously said something to the effect of ‘no’. But it doesn’t matter anyway, since a guy who flips out this much over a six hour lapse in text responses does not hear the word no whether it’s spoken or not.

  40. magi
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    To begin with I would like to make it clear that I’m not judging or saying what women deserve, I’m discussing tactics on how to deal with this situation.
    I’ve been in this situation and given my information out when I shouldn’t have. I’ve also paid the price for it. Your contact information…anyone’s contact information is not public domain. You don’t have to give it out. If someone is giving you bad vibe it’s much safer to say ‘No’ and risk a poor reaction in public then it is to give him your information so he can talk to you privately. If he wants to call you names and get butthurt, force him to do it in public, in front of witnesses. Especially if you think he might get violent about it.
    Most stalkers are bullies and bullies don’t like to fight. They like beat to people up, whether it’s emotional, physical, or sexual. If you give them a fight right off, they’ll go away quicker.

  41. Lilitu
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    No, seriously, if they can’t take no for an answer, screw them.

  42. alixana
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Most women go from overly-nice to “screw you if you can’t take no for an answer”
    There is a middle-ground.

    Oh christ, now we have to add more to the puzzle. We shouldn’t be “overly-nice” but still reject using, “respect, compassion and understanding” according to your first comment up above. And then once we do that, and we get ignored, we shouldn’t get pissed. We should do what, exactly, since this magical politeness you’ve been expousing up until now didn’t work? And this mysterious middle ground, what does it contain? Where in the middle DOES work? Closer to “overly-nice”? Closer to “screw you if you can’t take no for an answer”?
    Please, just stop. It’s a fucking joke.

  43. magi
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    To begin with I would like to make it clear that I’m not judging or saying what women deserve, I’m discussing tactics on how to deal with this situation.
    I’ve been in this situation and given my information out when I shouldn’t have. I’ve also paid the price for it. Your contact information…anyone’s contact information is not public domain. You don’t have to give it out. If someone is giving you bad vibe it’s much safer to say ‘No’ and risk a poor reaction in public then it is to give him your information so he can talk to you privately. If he wants to call you names and get butthurt, force him to do it in public, in front of witnesses. Especially if you think he might get violent about it.
    Most stalkers are bullies and bullies don’t like to fight. They like beat to people up, whether it’s emotional, physical, or sexual. If you give them a fight right off, they’ll go away quicker.

  44. alixana
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    Whoops, italics cut off early, they should extend to include “There is a middle-ground.”

  45. katie80andstuff
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    You are proving the point of the OP– it’s about entitlement. The manner in which the rejection is delivered counts for shit. The rage for these dudes is about being REJECTED when they feel they are owed something, period.

  46. rebekah
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    I think no matter what women do we are wrong. I have very rarely met a man, especially one who is almost for certain drunk if you are at a bar, who takes rejection well. All men have this sense of entitlement istilled into them from the time they are little the way girls have it instilled in them that we are always to say “no” to sex but a definite yes to whoever wants to take us out to dinner, no matter if we actually have chemistry with them or not. When women go against that the men who are asking them out ect. eiter get angry and start being violent (which is what happens most of the time) or they just start calling you things like “bitch” “prude” or “whore” (really would like to study why some men call you one while others call you two). We should have the right to say no without fear that one of these two things is going to happen, and because we can’t, it results in situations like this all the time. Good luck to courtney and I hope that she figures out a way to get rid of him once and for all.

  47. SarahMC
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Is this really the cross you want to die on?
    A lot of men do not accept “no” anyway! A guy who is going to react this way is not going to smile and walk away from a woman who says “no.” He’s going to flip his shit either way. Trust, it is often scary to say “no” to a man’s face because too many of them fly off the handle.
    If you want women to start saying “no” then you better start making this world a safer place for them to express their true feelings.

  48. SarahMC
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    I’m sure that, as a man, you have great insight into the female psyche, and that all your female friends have reported to you that men are always cool to deal with. I’m even more sure this story is 100% made up.

  49. FrumiousB
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    I am SOOO glad that you are here to tell us how we REALLY acted when we turned those men down and to tell us how they REALLY responded b/c being there in person and all, we couldn’t possibly what REALLY happened. You know, you are being quite a jerk with the way you keep denying people’s experience with rejecting men.

  50. spike the cat
    Posted August 14, 2009 at 2:21 pm | Permalink

    Why this is so hard:
    Both men and women have have the right to define their own social experiences. But I do think the dominant trend in these conversation is the degradation of the traditionally feminine dating perspective brought upon by the extreme othering and sexual objectification in our culture.
    I’ll explain.
    There is a tendency for men to see their experience in quantitative terms, i.e, number of rejections, hotness scale (1-10), number of advances, number of partners. Emotional self-preservation takes precedence.
    There is a tendency for women to see their experience in qualitative terms. We tend to pick apart the interaction in detail and analyze each interaction on their own merit. Physical self-preservation takes precedence.
    Of course these are trends with many exceptions and overlap. Both experiences are legitimate. But that’s rarely how folks see things.
    For example the default position on traditional courtship is that women are passive actors. Because the traditionally masculine perspective tends to focus on the quantitative side, then by definition, women–no matter what we say–really can’t add anything to the conversation it would seem. Even so-called outlier women who discuss taking on the traditionally masculine role are told that they are social anomalies and their perspective is essentially rendered void.
    In another problematic example, we are told that men cannot read our cryptic signals and body language, yet at the same time our tone and body language are the reason for us being verbally insulted.
    These conversations will continue to be rendered highly ineffective so long as women’s perspectives are being discounted and othered to these extremes that we are seeing. A little misunderstanding of course is to be expected, but what I’m seeing seems to be extreme.

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