“Gray rape” myth reaches college media

The Campus Word, an online college media network, has an article up titled, “The Blurry Line Between Sex and Rape,” which talks about a recent sexual assault incident at Boston University and how “for the most part, these kinds of cases with outsiders coming into random dorms, are not the kind of sexual assault/rape incidents that most girls should be worried about. The ones that are most prevalent are normally situations that we can prevent right from the get-go.” The author continues:

Let me paint you another picture. At a frat party, there is a girl scantily clad in a mini skirt (so short, by the way, you can almost see the bottom of her ass), and a tank top with a plunging neckline. She is downing, and subsequently refilling her solow cup of jungle juice. She then picks out a brother who she wants to be her so-called “project� of the night. . .he asks if she wants to “you know� and she says “yes.� After he has successfully found and put on a condom he climbs on top of her and the right when he is at the cusp, she changes her mind and says drunkenly “actually…� But being so caught up in the moment, he disregards this as momentary insanity on her part and enters her anyway. Who is really to blame in this situation? Yes, the guy should have stopped when she said no, but didn’t she vehemently send the message that sex was what she wanted? I mean, she even showed up to the party looking like pure sex, so who is really at fault?(Emphasis mine)

This is what happens when you make a bullshit “gray area” between rape and sex. This is what happens when a leading women’s magazine perpetuates these myths. “She was asking for it” stories are now being published in college media forums, not to mention the assertion that men can’t control their “urges.” What will happen is that rape on campuses will not only continue, but will now be condoned. And the author of the article is a young college woman; why are young women buying into the myth? Is it because they don’t want to think it could happen to them?
Please go to the article and write in comments to make it clear to these people that there is no such thing as “gray rape.”
Thanks to Andi for the link.

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121 Comments

  1. Luna
    Posted February 4, 2008 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    I used to express the same regrettably stupid opinions as the article writer. Even after I was raped by my boyfriend on many occasions. Maybe especially after. I think now that I simply couldn’t deal with the fact that I was raped, and felt sure that I had to have done something to provoke it, or it wouldn’t have happened. Well, and him constantly telling me that it was my fault didn’t help either.
    Gotta wonder when I see opinions like this if others aren’t in the same position.

  2. A male
    Posted February 5, 2008 at 4:21 am | Permalink

    “That’s tragic about your wife.”
    TRIGGER WARNING:
    Tell me about it. She denies any trauma, or the need for professional help. Originally, I had planned to assault or secretly kill the people responsible before meeting the ones I know of, like her stepmother who used to beat her so severely, my wife says she’s seen blood gushing from her head “like a faucet.” She has visible scars on her scalp and hands/arms to this day. The only reason I tolerate that woman is because there is peace in the house now that my wife is gone, and my wife says her dad needs his wife to take care of him (he has severely impaired vision).
    “Have you thought about trying to explain to her what her legal rights are regarding sex?”
    She is aware of her rights to her body now that she is married. Prior to marrying me, she considered herself in “relationships” with the men who abused her, like the boyfriend of her best friend (now husband) who used to force himself on her regularly when he used to drop in on her apartment allegedly to see NBA basketball on her cable TV. She considered it ok because she liked him at the time, despite him being with her best friend. Then there was her coworker who helped her move to another apartment. Then there was her former boss. The list goes on.
    I have pointed out to her that I am probably the only person whose advances she has ever resisted, I can’t even give her a hug without a reason (she has also never made reports to authorities for anything that happened to her), and my wife was also one of the many women in Japan who was victim to molesters on public transportation, and she was even once assaulted when she went alone to a movie theater, but she told me she did not leave because she wanted to continue watching the movie, and she was not the one who should have left. WTF.
    It is more than a simple cultural barrier, with her growing up in a “safer” environment like Japan (when we got married, she did not know why I considered it necessary to lock doors and windows, or to be aware of her surroundings and people around her when out), with all due respect, something is not quite right with my wife. Considering her long history, it’s as if she was raised to be a natural victim. She is simply fortunate most people consider her “nice” (all the women I know, anyway) that more people don’t try to take advantage of her sexually, financially, and otherwise.
    “Seems like it could help, if you’re genuinly worried about what would happen if she ever drank around strangers.”
    She’s only allowed herself to get drunk once since having children, at a party with coworkers in Japan. She fell off the luggage rack off the bicycle of the man bringing her home and had a huge abrasion on her face. She was lucky not to break any bones, get a concussion, get run over by cars on the city streets, or otherwise die. She or her coworkers could have called me at home watching the kids, or a taxi, for a ride at any time. My wife is not someone who should be allowed to get really drunk. Previously, I recall her getting really drunk in 1995, puking in the public bathroom drunk, during a barbecue for a community group we were in. Otherwise, she got “pleasantly” drunk, and like I said, someone who did not know her as well as her friends or myself would easily think she was simply being forward, and something could happen to her, even if she would not want it to while sober. The other young women I know who drink socially would probably pass your “enthusiastic consent” test while drunk as well, despite it being technically considered rape in the UK or Australia by law, or by my former university’s new sexual assault policy linked in my earlier post.

  3. A male
    Posted February 5, 2008 at 4:36 am | Permalink

    “Gotta wonder when I see opinions like this if others aren’t in the same position.”
    I am sure situations like the one in the OP have happened to millions of women in social situations in the US, but were historically simply not considered “serious enough” by victims or those they told, to report to the authorities. To this day, I read comments online blaming rape victims for “choosing” to be drunk or go to parties, calling it simple after sex regret, being irresponsible, or whatever.

  4. avast2006
    Posted February 5, 2008 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    The comments appear a little one-sided here.
    Yes, it is absolutely true that if at any point the woman stops and the man does not, it is rape. That is perfectly straightforward. No argument there.
    However, I see very little acknowledgement of the idea that for a woman to follow a man up to his room, voluntarily get naked, voluntarily climb into his bed, maybe even engage in oral or manual stimulation, and then claim to not want sex and that he was reading her signals all wrong, borders on sociopathic. Having second thoughts at the last minute is all well and good, but many comments (either here or on the original article) seem to approach the concept as if that progression of events is or should be perfectly NORMAL for a woman.
    What would you say about a man who showed up at a woman’s doorstep, waved a bouquet under her nose, whisked her away to her favorite restaurant, flashed a sparkly ring, and then at the moment the waiter approached bearing menus, the man hustled the woman out of the restaurant, chauffered her home, and left her standing on the threshold while he disappeared with the ring in his pocket and the flowers under his arm?

  5. avast2006
    Posted February 6, 2008 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    “What would you say about a man who showed up at a woman’s doorstep, waved a bouquet under her nose, whisked her away to her favorite restaurant, flashed a sparkly ring, and then at the moment the waiter approached bearing menus, the man hustled the woman out of the restaurant, chauffered her home, and left her standing on the threshold while he disappeared with the ring in his pocket and the flowers under his arm?”
    One certainly wouldn’t expect that the man be forcibly returned to the restaurant and relieved of his flowers, ring, and wallet so that his lady friend could enjoy the dinner and all that he had apparently promised her. But one would consider him to be either crazy or a serious asshole to do that to her.
    Having an inviolable right to control one’s own body does not translate into a right and expectation to feel free to behave like a jerk, no matter which gender. Being a prick-tease is being a jerk. Of course it does not justify rape. But it is being a jerk. That’s all I’m saying.

  6. A male
    Posted February 6, 2008 at 1:16 am | Permalink

    “The comments appear a little one-sided here.”
    Maybe because we are on a feminist website, and the discussion is rape. If we went to Glenn Sacks, the conversation would be one sided against women for being soo ebil, and men such victims who were deceived into marrying and supporting them and children who may not even be theirs, for the next 18 years, or the rest of their lives. I visit regularly, to know. A number of posters at Glenn Sacks even declare they are on a marriage strike, to protest against the ebil of marriage, alimony, and child support. I have yet to hear of women in their lives crying over these men removing themselves from the dating or gene pool. Women here are not so extreme.
    “Having an inviolable right to control one’s own body does not translate into a right and expectation to feel free to behave like a jerk, no matter which gender. Being a prick-tease is being a jerk. Of course it does not justify rape. But it is being a jerk. That’s all I’m saying.”
    A woman deciding not to at the last moment, despite her participation or invitation, or even asking to stop DURING sex, is not necessarily being a prick tease. Perhaps she genuinely has second thoughts that she does not want to end up with this guy or pregnant by him, and quite possibly, the sex is too rough or painful for her liking. Can you understand this? If you do not, there is no sense in continuing a discussion.
    Even as a man, I understand that not everything my wife does to me is pleasurable, and I have asked her to try again another way, or to stop completely. How can it be otherwise? She has 14 fewer years of experience than I do, in pleasing me sexually. Also, working in a restaurant in Japan using harsh cleansers gave her rough skin on her hands for a few years. Try to imagine a woman giving you a going over wearing Scotchbrite gloves, and you’d want to stop her sometimes, too, no matter how much you love each other.
    The man in the situation you describe is indeed being a jerk. There may be justification, but please describe a realistic situation in which such behavior would be possible *without* the man simply being an ass trying to punish the woman.
    A woman being a deliberate tease would also be being a jerk. But that is not the reason for the majority of women asking to stop, and as you say, no excuse for a man raping them. If men felt pain and discomfort during sex like women sometimes do for various reasons, be it insufficient arousal/lubrication, improper angle of insertion, insufficient stretch of the vaginal walls, improper technique, being too rough, continuing too long, etc., more men would understand why a woman would want to stop even during sex. It has happened to me. In fact, my wife usually has me stop because she does not WANT to continue sex after an orgasm (despite me pausing until she is done, because I’ve learned stimulation during an orgasm can be uncomfortable or too intense for a woman), or she does not WANT more orgasms (for sure, she stops at two). Sometimes she decides she does not want an orgasm at all, because orgasms for her are a physically draining experience (she normally passes out or falls asleep when it is over).
    Do you get it yet? Can you try to imagine things from a woman’s point of view, the reality of which is, sex is not always pleasurable, and certainly does not result in sexual gratification or orgasm as easily as a man?

  7. A male
    Posted February 6, 2008 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    Oh, and naturally, if my wife wants me to stop before my own orgasm, that means no orgasm with her for me, no matter how long or short we’ve been at it, because she is almost never in any condition to “help” me. When with my wife, I’ve learned to enjoy watching her reaction instead of my own.

  8. A male
    Posted February 6, 2008 at 1:35 am | Permalink

    And I am not bragging about my size or sexual prowess. I’ve got a penis shorter than the published averages, and my wife simply has orgasms very easily, though she claims, not before meeting me. I had to teach her how to touch herself, even. She can have an orgasm every single time, and multiple, if she would let me. Unlike most women I’ve read about, she actually enjoys focused, continued direct stimulation of sensitive areas like the clitoris, and I’d need to think how NOT to give her an orgasm. Try asking your girlfriend or wife if she would find the same direct stimulation pleasurable, or if she has orgasms so easily. I sincerely doubt it. I was damned lucky I did not marry the first woman I was engaged to, because her idea of missionary position only, lights out, no looking, and certainly no touching or oral, would have been boring for me.

  9. avast2006
    Posted February 6, 2008 at 1:51 am | Permalink

    Certainly I understand that the prick-tease scenario is most likely an infinitesimal minority of actual occurrences. Certainly there are legitimate reasons to need to stop. What I was reacting to was not specific instances, but the attitude on the part of some posters, (again, expressed on the original article as well as here): namely, that a woman can do what she wants, touch what she wants, suck what she wants, fuck what she wants, and when she says stop, the man’s feelings in the situation count for absolutely zero, zilch, nada. The man is being asked to field one hundred percent of the sensitivity in the situation. What kind of person wants carte blanche to be an insensitive, selfish asshole? Again, for any sane person it would go without saying that one’s partner matters at least a little bit when things like this come up. Why would people state their position in such absolute terms?
    And no, I don’t think it’s too much to ask that a discussion be balanced. Otherwise I grant you about as much credibility as I grant Limbaugh.

  10. SmallTownPsychosis
    Posted February 6, 2008 at 3:04 am | Permalink

    “However, I see very little acknowledgement of the idea that for a woman to follow a man up to his room, voluntarily get naked, voluntarily climb into his bed, maybe even engage in oral or manual stimulation, and then claim to not want sex and that he was reading her signals all wrong, borders on sociopathic.”

    You know, something else for you to consider in your list of possibilities is that after he disrobed and presented his penis for inspection, she saw or felt sores on his genitalia and decided that wasn’t what she had in mind.
    It’s not like people are straightforward about their STDs.
    Just to throw another wrench in the “evil cock tease” paranoia.
    Not out of the realm of either possibility or even necessarily uncommon occurence.

  11. A male
    Posted February 6, 2008 at 3:38 am | Permalink

    “What kind of person wants carte blanche to be an insensitive, selfish asshole?”
    People who believe in personal freedoms. You and I both have license to act like “insensitive, selfish assholes” like the man or woman in your hypothetical right now. It does not mean anyone has to do it, or that people must like us for it, though people who support personal freedoms should respect such views or choices. Just last night, I was reading on one feminist blog how the writer, a feminist, wrote she did not understand the concept of withdrawing consent, saying she sometimes allowed the sex with her man to continue because it was simply the easiest thing to do at the time (which is not to say they gave consent for the sex or for it to continue) and some comments agreed. Considering how little we hear about rape cases like that, and how new this concept of rape after withdrawal of consent, or rape after denying sex after active participation in foreplay are,
    Appeal judges draw fire over sex consent
    via The Advertiser
    By Sean Fewster
    March 20, 2007
    APPEAL court judges have erased an alleged rapist’s criminal record after ruling that a man could not rape and have consensual sex with a woman in the same encounter.
    The judgment has sent shockwaves through women’s groups and prompted an urgent legal review in South Australia.
    In a 2-1 decision, the Court of Criminal Appeal erased the criminal record of a man who twice had sex with a woman in his car.
    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21412920-2,00.html
    [this is the "if you suck, you must fuck" case cited by Feministing, and perfectly relevant to your hypothetical]
    http://feministing.com/archives/006734.html
    that is precisely how I am certain how those, and drunken situations like in the OP, must have happened to millions of women, but were simply never reported to authorities. Offending men, the general public, perhaps not even the women themselves understood such to be rape as people stereotypically knew it (stranger suddenly and forcefully taking innocent virgin by surprise) or “serious enough” to report. Australia, one of the countries that recently (1/1/08) enacted their “no means no” law that drunken women cannot consent to sex, still doesn’t get it, if they think “leading a man on” through oral sex or saying yes once, justifies rape later.
    “Otherwise I grant you about as much credibility as I grant Limbaugh.”
    What does credibility have to do with anything? Read any responsible scientific or medical source you want about sex from the women’s side, and imagine why they would want it to stop despite making out with a man or already having sex. It isn’t all screaming orgasms and squirting like in porn. And I care less if you do not believe me about myself or my wife.
    If you are referring to the “lack of balance” on this site as a feminist site, I agree. Even if what they want is equal rights for all, this is mainly about the concerns and needs of women, not men. You should also apply the same standard to the sites which support men’s/father’s rights. It’s why I visit both here and Glenn Sacks’ site daily, and a number of others. To hear a number of viewpoints from men, women, common people, deliberate trolls and devil’s advocates making extreme statements, academics, the law, the situation in other countries, etc. I have encouraged readers here to do the same instead of (sometimes) simply accepting or reciting any statistic or viewpoint they read just because it supports their own, but cannot tell them how to think or behave on “their” website. Others question what they see as well, as when people are apparently hostile to OB/GYNs or giving birth in hospitals as opposed to also having a midwife or doula present, or having a birth without a hospital or physician.
    I hope you notice at the Glenn Sacks’ site (just this week, he has had to post the necessity of moderating his boards (he says he previously had no written rules) and had to defend himself from some of his own readers and “fans”) that the environment there is considerably more hostile for women who support women and children’s rights (or those who point out how women suffer in marriage or divorce), than here for men (note most here who post as men act like trolls). For example, a number of feminist posters here, like posters on the Sacks’ site, also support the legal elimination of alimony, when certain conditions like equitable wages are met. I was shocked to see it.
    I don’t even bother posting at the Sacks’ site, because most posters, who seem to be hurting over bad divorces and other bad experiences with women, wouldn’t want to listen that it’s not all like what happened to them, or that there are reasons laws were made to help ex-wives or biological children after a divorce (or in “real” cases of rape or domestic violence). I had to read it here (and confirm it through my own online search) that a full 58% of single mothers lived below the poverty line, that the average child support payment received was only about $300 a month, or that only 7% of women actually received alimony (though 15% were legally entitled to it). “Common sense” and reading men’s rights websites would have me believe all ex-wives and custodial mothers of men’s children were making out like bandits, courtesy of Uncle Sam. US federal government statistics like the census, would clearly demonstrate such women, while they exist, are hardly the norm. Also, despite the claim (I will not dispute the figure) that women get sole or primary custody of children in 80% of divorces, I was surprised last week to hear my impoverished brother won 50/50 custody of his daughter with his bigshot accountant ex-wife. I had to change my way of thinking. Sacks’ readers are probably too angry to imagine how it is for the “average” single mother or what happens when fathers do not financially support the children they father, producing such words of wisdom as “75% of divorces are initiated by women” (I will not dispute the figure) and “Her body, her choice, her responsibility,” when justifying why men do not need to pay when women are divorced or bear children.
    And as I openly post here, there are times I happen to agree with Glenn Sacks. He is much more reasonable than the vast majority of his posters. Again, he had to defend himself last week from readers who claimed he is going “soft” by occasionally supporting views of feminists (when Sacks agrees they are right).
    Read Feministing for a while and post respectfully for a few months like I have tried, and see how differently you are treated than the average troll who gets banned for asking what women are complaining about in this day and age, or calling feminists hypocrites, liars and man hating.

  12. A male
    Posted February 6, 2008 at 4:13 am | Permalink

    “You know, something else for you to consider in your list of possibilities is that after he disrobed and presented his penis for inspection, she saw or felt sores on his genitalia and decided that wasn’t what she had in mind.”
    Of course. And for “balance”, I am certain that there are times when men prefer they not have sex, either due to the woman’s common vaginal infections, natural stages of menstruation, or STIs. Also, it has been found that men who were present during the birth of their children often experienced sexual dysfunction later. Must be discouraging for women and men who would like to resume having sex. A number of medications such as antidepressants can also cause impotence despite the willingness of the men.
    These men are not being teases any more than women who would say no for not being able to perform due to lack of arousal or discomfort or for seeing something they don’t like.

  13. spike the cat
    Posted February 6, 2008 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    “However, I see very little acknowledgement of the idea that for a woman to follow a man up to his room, voluntarily get naked, voluntarily climb into his bed, maybe even engage in oral or manual stimulation, and then claim to not want sex and that he was reading her signals all wrong, borders on sociopathic. Having second thoughts at the last minute is all well and good, but many comments (either here or on the original article) seem to approach the concept as if that progression of events is or should be perfectly NORMAL for a woman”
    Well, I for one consider this behavior somewhat NORMAL in a country that promotes abstinence only education and where women continue to be slut shamed in their own lives and in the media. But this is a whole other discussion.
    Now. If people can’t handle the the above scenario without walking away, then they probably should not be having casual sex.
    I am not sure why there is so much resistance to this concept.

  14. A male
    Posted February 6, 2008 at 4:55 pm | Permalink

    “If people can’t handle the the above scenario without walking away, then they probably should not be having casual sex.”
    Exactly.
    “I am not sure why there is so much resistance to this concept.”
    Some men really are pigs, and I doubt most others (at least those who desire no obligation sex) care to understand sexual issues for women like it could well be uncomfortable or painful, and gee, a piston action which can result in rapid ejaculation for the male, and very much like solo masturbation, is not the best way to an orgasm for a woman.
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1608/is_3_21/ai_n13504288
    “The orgasm almanac: if she goes to bed without experiencing each of the orgasms below, you haven’t done your job”
    Men’s Fitness, April, 2005 by Belisa Vranich
    “WOMEN WILL PUT UP WITH ONE, MAYBE TWO, nights without an orgasm from you. But you’d better know how to hit her G-spot before too long or you’ll be getting cozy with her answering machine. Here’s why: For 70% of women, penetration alone is not enough to bring them to climax. That’s a hell of a lot of women walking the earth with no satisfaction. See a way to get laid more? Understand her orgasm(s), as well as when and how to give them, and you’ll be a more confident man with a lot more sex in your life. Consider this your contribution to womankind.”
    “Best TOOL to give her one”? “Troubleshooting”? “Spit works just fine IN A PINCH”? “Still not GETTING THERE? Call in a BACKUP . . . Her vibrator”?! Mind you, this article (already a few pages too short on techniques), like many others of its kind as in say, Cosmo on mind blowing sex/orgasms, does not discuss romance, foreplay, or cuddling at all. It’s not as if sex for the woman is only about orgasm, either.
    A lot of men really don’t know, and don’t care, as in the old “joke”:
    Q: How can a real man tell when his girl friend’s having an orgasm?
    A: Real men don’t care.
    or better yet, there are “men” who actually think or talk like this, at least in college I knew some who lived by the motto “Use ‘em and lose ‘em”:
    TRIGGER WARNING
    http://vksempireofdirt.com/index.php?paged=3
    [start quote]
    Truth be told, a woman faking her orgasm with me does not bother me or most guys I know whatsoever. I usually don’t start caring about pleasing her till after the fifth bang or if I feel she might be relationship worthy. But if I just met you on $2 beer night at Lucky Bar, I don’t owe you an orgasm (hell I don’t even owe you my real name). Your’s is just a consolation prize. It ranks up there on my to do list right below shaving my balls and above finding a woman with good credit to love me.
    The first five times is to simply see how much punishment the girl can take, what her boundaries are if she has any. I look for any signs that she might not be able to fully fulfill all my sexual needs. Little phrases like, “Don’t get any on my clothes, don’t get any in my hair, not that hole, the ropes are too tight, I can’t breath with this plastic bag on my face, don’t call me Kim Kar�. After that I’ll start doing little things to show that her feelings and enjoyment are important to me. Like remembering her name or not falling asleep on top of her after I finish. It’s the little things ladies.
    It’s kind of cute though that some women think so much of themselves to actually try and fake it with a guy. Especially on a one night stand where the guy has probably seen better acting in Just My Luck. I mean what’s a guy thinking when he picks up a girl in a bar
    A) Wow, I connect with this girl on such a deep mental and spiritual level, I can’t wait to take her home and connect with her physically giving her much pleasure OR
    B) Look three holes
    [end quote]
    Seriously, with men who think like that around and quite common, I do not see the appeal in casual sex for most women. You most certainly would not like to be drunk or high around men like that.

  15. avast2006
    Posted February 7, 2008 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    It occurs to me that my writing may have been unclear. Let me try to clarify.
    1) It has never been my position that someone should be forced to go through with any sexual activity that they don’t want.
    2) There is always the possibility of an extenuating circumstance that comes up and makes it necessary to stop right in the middle: pain, discovery of a disease, discovery of an unpleasant aspect of the partner’s personality, discovery of some failure of protection, the list is practically endless. These are all well and good. They are not the same thing, however, as insisting there is nothing wrong with making standard operating procedure out of going as far as possible as fast as possible and then slamming the door in one’s partner’s face.
    3) Barring one of these extenuating circumstances, it is considerate of one’s partner to deal with hesitations as early in the process as possible. Far better to say “No, this is a bad idea” on the dance floor than at the very brink of penetration.
    An few rare occurrences can be chalked up to be lack of experience. Making it a regular thing and insisting there’s nothing wrong with it is crazy. Someone who thinks that kind of behavior is okay should have no problem with being regularly run out on, mid-meal, during dates. If a guy forgot to take his wallet to the restarant once, one hopes you’d forgive him. If he does it every time, you’d think he was pretty stupid.

  16. A male
    Posted February 7, 2008 at 2:24 am | Permalink

    “Barring one of these extenuating circumstances, it is considerate of one’s partner to deal with hesitations as early in the process as possible. Far better to say “No, this is a bad idea” on the dance floor than at the very brink of penetration.”
    Oh, certainly.
    “Making it a regular thing and insisting there’s nothing wrong with it is crazy.”
    One hopes individual women are not sexually assaulted and raped often. My wife is an atypical victim, and I and my psychiatrist believe there is something going on which makes her particularly vulnerable to victimization.
    “If a guy forgot to take his wallet to the restarant once, one hopes you’d forgive him. If he does it every time, you’d think he was pretty stupid.”
    No, he’s forgetful.

  17. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted February 7, 2008 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    Wow. This thread went off on quite a tangent…
    Just checking in, and I feel a need to reply to this: “However, I see very little acknowledgement of the idea that for a woman to follow a man up to his room, voluntarily get naked, voluntarily climb into his bed, maybe even engage in oral or manual stimulation, and then claim to not want sex and that he was reading her signals all wrong, borders on sociopathic. Having second thoughts at the last minute is all well and good, but many comments (either here or on the original article) seem to approach the concept as if that progression of events is or should be perfectly NORMAL for a woman”
    I’m going to take a shot in the dark and say that you guys are from a different generation, and/or a more conservative culture than the one I’m familiar with. I have to say that for both men and women I know, “hooking up” (that can mean simply making out OR manual sex OR oral sex OR intercourse) with someone you just met and then falling asleep in the stranger’s bed even, is fairly standard. Not every guy is looking for intercourse, the way you paint it avast. And going no farther than manual, or going no farther than intercourse, seems to be things both guys and girls I know in college are comfortable with. I don’t think there’s anyting selfish or jerk-like about it on either end…

  18. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted February 7, 2008 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    oops, sorry, that should have read “and going no farther than manual, or going no farther than oral, seems to be things both guys and girls I know in college are comfortable with”

  19. A male
    Posted February 8, 2008 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    “and going no farther than manual, or going no farther than oral, seems to be things both guys and girls I know in college are comfortable with”
    Then I would say the people you know are different from the rapists and victims we are talking about, otherwise rape of young people wouldn’t be such a problem, and men AND women wouldn’t be blaming victims. I fail to see the appeal in casual sex for a woman except as just another opportunity to be exploited, beaten, raped, impregnated or pick up a disease. And yes, that would be the rapists’ fault. Men of course, get to get off with a real live woman instead of their own hand, and hopefully walk away without commitments, paying child support or picking up a disease.

  20. A male
    Posted February 8, 2008 at 12:20 am | Permalink

    Ah. By having sex with women they trust and with whom they share similar values such as regarding boundaries and consent, men can also avoid being accused of rape.

  21. GamesOnline
    Posted November 8, 2009 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    Mina–agreed!free online games

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