I thought we learned our lesson with R. Kelly?

(Warning: This video is very explicit and may be upsetting)
Obviously, we haven’t.
Excuse me while I got delete all Akon from my playlist.

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190 Comments

  1. Posted April 30, 2007 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    She said “I never thought it was going to be like that.” That is a CLEAR STATEMENT that there was NOT affirmative consent. If there WAS affirmative consent, she would have known that it was going to be like that, because they would have talked about it before hand and he would have said “okay, we’re going to grind on the floor and it’s going to be kind of rough. I’m also going to take you over the audience and move you around a lot, is that okay with you?” If she “NEVER THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE LIKE THAT” the conversation clearly never happened and he did NOT, I repeat NOT have affirmative consent, which it seems pretty obvious to me that ANYONE SHOULD HAVE before doing something so violent to another person.

  2. Posted April 30, 2007 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    Cara – that is what I was asking – the affirmative consent folks here are saying all it is is a matter of saying:
    “hey baby, is this good for you” and the other person saying “yeah, I like it” or whatever
    I am saying that he may have simply said he wanted to do a dance with her and she agreed – now we get down to how much should they have talked about it – beforehand and at what point it would have become criminal.
    I am not SAYING SHE DID GIVE AFFIRMATIVE CONSENT and I don’t think her statment “I didn’t think it was going to be like that” means she didn’t agree to dance with him – it probably means he didn’t tell her everything he was going to do – and if Affirmative Consent was the law – how much information would he be “required” to provide (assuming he knew what he was going to do – I thought the dance looked a bit impromptu) and how often and to what extent? Also, if he got consent for all of the dance except the head banging part which may have occured accidentally – what then?

  3. Posted April 30, 2007 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    I think the fact that he did not stop once her head started banging on the floor makes it criminal. Either he wasn’t paying enough attention to her (in which case it would be gross negligence) or he just didn’t care (in which case it would be assault). It doesn’t matter that it wasn’t accidental. If you accidentally injure someone it is still your responsiblity to stop doing whatever you were doing that caused the injury and to make sure that the person is okay. In this case, he not only kept going, he got up and walked away from her without making sure that she was okay afterwards. I think that shows a clear disregard for her safety.

  4. EG
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Also, I really am rather put off by EG and Nina acting like they are the better “vicitim advocates” simply because they stand up against this guy and say it’s wrong PERIOD from every angle – it’s easy to jump on that bandwagon and be accepted here with open arms as the right kind of feminist.
    I’m not sure what this is supposed to mean. Nina and I disagree with you. We disagree with you because, as roy said, the current “lack of objection” standard doesn’t work and ends up letting men get away with hurting women. Are we supposed to pretend we don’t, or that we don’t think that issues of affirmative consent have anything to do with rape, so that you don’t feel “put off”? You’re the one who was pretty condescending about why we think it’s a good idea, and are now accusing of us jumping on some bandwagon out of some weird, high-school-like desire to be “accepted with open arms,” instead of accepting the fact that it is possible for us to think things through fully and yet still disagree with you.

  5. Posted April 30, 2007 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Cara – Thank you. That is also what I was asking for. I think negligence fits if he didn’t realize he was doing it.

  6. Posted April 30, 2007 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    If he did realize he was doing it then the charge should be more significant – and I also agree that walking away was disregarding her safety.

  7. Posted April 30, 2007 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    “Oh okay. I reread this again, so let me clarify for you. We are asserting that men are currently held to a standard that is lower than a minimally decent one. Therefore, we are advocating that men be held to higher standards than they are now. Women can be held to the same standards. ”
    I also agree with this. And yes, that is what I was trying to say. I was actually thrown off by the initial “MORE” – which I read as meaning men should be held MORE accountable and to a higher standard. The above statment you made is more of what I feel and agree with.

  8. Posted April 30, 2007 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    UCLA – yes, please email me your manuscript, I’m very interested in reading it. Also, please let me know when you have it up on your site and I will link to it from my blogs.
    Thanks!

  9. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    well okay, Heather, but negligence (debatable, but…) would still make it criminal. I am pretty sure you were earlier arguing against his actions being criminal.
    Not that this inherently proves anything about this case, but Did you know that a couple of years ago there was this horrible case in IL, where two 18 yr-old boys got a girl drunk and gave her drugs and then each had sex with her and taped it. Then at the end of the tape they wrote on her in marker and one of the boys spit on her. At the trial, the defendent turned off the volume on the tape and said “look… look at the way her hips are moving, doesn’t that look like consent to you?” That (highly-debatable) assessment of the video held more credence with the jury than the girl’s own version of the story did, and the boys were convicted of child pornography but not rape. One might think that having a tape would help a case…
    I do encourage you to learn more about the standard of affirmative consent and try to see it in a good way. It’s being embraced by sexual assault awareness groups on colleges across the country, so who knows, maybe in a couple of decades it /will/ be reflected in our laws.

  10. Posted April 30, 2007 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Well I would like to state here, Heather, that that I DON’T think negligence is all that occured here. I think that this most likely was assault. I was following your argument of “what if” the woman had consented to all but the head-banging AND that he was unaware of the fact that he was banging her head. I personally think that both of these instances are rather improbable, and I was actually arguing that even in the most ideal situation (for him), this was still criminal.

  11. donna darko
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    The problem in these cases is too many people including women imagining themselves in the men’s shoes. Why don’t men and women put themselves in the woman’s shoes? Even if there’s a 99% she didn’t like what happened, men and women will fight to the end to defend the 1% chance she liked it. If you put yourselves in her shoes, you almost definitely wouldn’t have liked it. Now that she’s saying she didn’t like it, we should believe her. Otherwise, it’s a double standard.

  12. Posted April 30, 2007 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    Excellent point, donna. Thanks.

  13. Posted April 30, 2007 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    No I was NOT arguing against his actions being criminal! I was ASKING if they were criminal.
    Also – I apologize if I came off sounding condecending about the affirmative consent stuff but this format leaves something to be desired – I feel as though a huge portion of what I am trying to say would be understood better in person where body language, tone, facial expressions and inflection can meand the difference between asking a question and pushing a point.
    Cara that you think MY examples are improbable but all of the other ones here are valid??? Again – I DON’T KNOW what his state of mind was or what he was aware of. Do you? We can all pick the video and statment apart but none of us knows anything other than that.
    As for the IL girl case – the girl was drunk/drugged – to me that is rape. It’s also criminal if she didn’t take the drugs and they were administered to her. She was incapable of giving consent at that point, I don’t care if her hips were moving or how or whatever. The spitting is further evidence of the fact that they had objectified and dehumanized her. I don’t have all of the details of the case, but as you state it, it certainly sounds like an injustice of only being convicted of child pornongraphy and not rape too (and giving her drugs and assault and whatever else they could have hit them with) – hopefully they will have to be registered sex offenders either way???
    I’m telling you guys I don’t condone what he did but I do have questions in my mind as to how things went and to what level consent occured and what the intent of each of them was.
    Also, as a mother, I am always concerned with how to keep girls from ending up in these situations in the first place. We are never going to rid the world of people like this so I would like to approach it from two angles – how to encourage the next generation of men to not objectify women and how girls can be given healthy doses of self esteem so they don’t have to feel as though they need to be hypersexual in order to connect with men.
    Of course the other angle (I guess that makes three) is to make sure there are laws on the books that protect people and that they are upheld and utilized to their fullest extent.
    Also, I still think it’s more productive to criminalize when a person persists past NO or STOP than to criminalize touching that occurs before a yes. That is just my opinion. I think that if a guy KNEW FOR A FACT that NO (even if she “didn’t mean it” or if he thinks she “didn’t mean it) means if you keep going you will be punished regarless of your interpretation – would eliminate the whole “She said no but she meant yes” defense AND it would make those saying NO (men and women) feel like it actually has some power.

  14. Posted April 30, 2007 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Yes, Heather, I do think that it’s more plausible that a woman who agreed to dance on stage did not consent to the type of “dance” we see in this video than that she did consent to it. Why? Because the dance is degrading and violent, and while many women do consent to degrading behavior, they generally do not consent to violent behavior. Also, she said that she didn’t consent. I’m basing my perception on what I’ve seen and what was said– which, like you’ve said, is all we have to go on.

  15. Posted April 30, 2007 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Donna – I am looking at them as two people and trying to put myself in BOTH of their shoes.
    I can much more relate to her position than his.

  16. Posted April 30, 2007 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    Cara – I think we are miscommunicating because what you are writing isn’t really lining up with what I felt like I said.
    I feel like I need a translator or I’m speaking in the wrong language or something. It’s getting very frustrating.

  17. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    Alright Heather… let’s put ourselves in his shoes for a minute. I’m dancing with some girl a lot smaller than me, I start humping her and her head starts banging on the floor. I fucking stop. Also, I would /never/ drag someone around the floor like that. That’s not how horizontal dancing is done. Some of us are trying to put ourselves in each of the player’s shoes in the sense of what’s probable. You seem to be putting yourself in his shoes in the sense of trying to find a pure intention in some really ridiculous behavior. Maybe he was intoxicated to the point where he didn’t know what was going on… his behavior is /still/ criminal.
    Again, we know from the girls comments that she didn’t expect the dancing to be like that… hence she couldn’t have given consent.
    And I’m sorry, but I don’t like the way you keep bringing up other aspects of the girl’s behavior and life as though it’s relevant. You can complain about oversexualizing of young girls in our culture. It still has virtually no bearing on this case, as far as I’m concerned. Like you said, he may have thought she was 18. Eighteen yr-olds have the right to express their sexuality however they want without being subjected to violence. What he did was still criminal.

  18. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    Also Heather,
    Akon actually does have some songs describing sexual violence against women. I rally would prefer that keeping women away from people with bad attitudes wasn’t seen as a better solution than punishing men who do criminal things though. What are you going to do to make sure these things never happen -lock daughters inside? Misogynistic people exist everywhere. I would much rather be thorough about punishing them for criminal acts than focus on restricting women’s freedom. With freedom of speech, singing the things Akon sings and listening to those things is not illegal. Assault or negligence, on the other hand, are.

  19. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    “Also, I still think it’s more productive to criminalize when a person persists past NO or STOP than to criminalize touching that occurs before a yes. That is just my opinion. I think that if a guy KNEW FOR A FACT that NO (even if she “didn’t mean it” or if he thinks she “didn’t mean it) means if you keep going you will be punished regarless of your interpretation – would eliminate the whole “She said no but she meant yes” defense AND it would make those saying NO (men and women) feel like it actually has some power.”
    What about the cases where women can’t say no? Or they’re too overwhelmed to think of it, and think simple screaming will suffice. Or they’re too embarassed? Or they’re feeling coerced and decide to go along with sex because they think that will be easier than fighting it? “Affirmative action” is about sexual partners having a higher level of respect for the feelings of each other. I really don’t understand your objection. Some of us have had sex with affirmative consent. You should try it sometime, it’s really not that bad. And again, it’s not as though it would ever criminalize sex that both people want.

  20. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    uh-oh, “affirmative consent” /not/ “affirmative action”, obviously

  21. Posted April 30, 2007 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    My husband and I have affirmative consent sex every time we have sex. It’s not that difficult, and it was never a conscious decision, it just occured due to our mutual respect for each other. And saying “Do you want me, baby?” or “I want you” before penetration really doesn’t take much effort and really just serves to let each other know that we’re ready.

  22. Posted April 30, 2007 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    “You seem to be putting yourself in his shoes in the sense of trying to find a pure intention in some really ridiculous behavior.”
    Wrong again. I don’t see the point in contiuing with this, you aren’t understanding me and I’m getting increasingly concerned that people are going to believe your interpretation of what I’ve said.
    I don’t think you get what I’m saying or WHY I am saying it nor do I get the impression you care to. Nor am I allowed to carry the discussion beyond the scope of what *you* deem as relevant. Even though I’ve explained my interest in those areas – and have REPEATEDLY stated that I am not expressing my questions as a form of excuse for Akon (gag).

  23. Posted April 30, 2007 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

    Something to ponder:
    I am considered a very liberal fat feminist by – well – pretty much everybody who knows me.
    If we can’t all get along and listen to each other – how do we expect the world to get any better? How to do we expect others to listen to us when we can’t even communicate well on this blog?
    Cara – I don’t have to do that with my husbands and I don’t want to. They know when I want to have sex, it’s made pretty clear – sometimes verbally (which would fit into your senario) sometimes non-verbally. I also make it pretty clear when I’m not in the mood (sometimes verbally and sometimes non and sometimes I’m so busy they don’t bother to ask). Generally you’d have to be blindfolded and have in ear plugs to not know the difference in my house.
    I’m glad it works for you – that is your personal choice. I have no problem with that.

  24. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    Again Heather, there are plenty of instances in which women don’t want to have sex and find saying “no” to be impossible or not easy (let alone having that “no” respected).
    Under our system, people who don’t want to communicate about their desires to have sex don’t have to. So long as it doesn’t later turn out one person actually /didn’t/ want to have sex, no one is going to have a problem. So you and your husbands can continue doing whatever it is you’re doing. You’re lucky if they are very sensitive to your body language and wouldn’t dream of presuming sexual rights over your body. Not everyone is that lucky when it comes to the attitudes of their sexual partners. “Affirmative consent” lets people know that they are expected to be sure of their partners desires before doing things, and it provides legal protection for those people whose partners might not be so in-tune and caring about the other person’s feelings.

  25. Posted April 30, 2007 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Nina – I know – I’ve been a victim of those circumstances myself.
    Perhaps it would be helpful if you would provide me with some links to study the subject further.
    Yes, I am very lucky – but I also would not be with a partner who would ignore my needs or overpower me to take something from me.
    I wish all women would demand the same respect for themselves. I feel that in some ways we have made great strides in this area, but I still see teen girls who cut themselves and hurt themselves and go out with boys who want to control them. It makes me cry when I have to try to convince these girls to do better for themselves and that they deserve better.
    I am doing a photo project I call “Ophelia” which is the study of adolescent girls in society. I find the rituals and dress and cues they give each other fascinating and also sometimes deeply sad. I also recognize many of the patterns, partly because I lived them as a troubled teen with an eating disorder myself – so sometimes it’s like watching the young me.
    Perhaps I do not have a full understanding of what you are saying affirmative consent is, because as it has been in this thread – the definitions are somewhat ambiguous as to how much a person is supposed to say, when etc.
    If I were to flirt with my husband early in the day and tell him I wanted to have sex at nine – then he approaches me at nine and starts putting his hands all over me – but I’m tired and forgot and got busy – has he violated it by not asking me first? Has he violated me if I simply disreagred his advances as a misunderstanding and I don’t feel violated, even though he didn’t ask?
    See, what I am having trouble with is the way you guys keep making it sound so easy – you know – he asks “hey baby do you want to” and she says “hell yes” and so forth – and life has taught me that nothing is as simple as it sounds at first, so I am trying to understand all of the “rules” that go with AC and what breaking that rule would mean in terms of criminality and to what degree.
    So, links, studies, information would be helpful.

  26. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    “Yes, I am very lucky – but I also would not be with a partner who would ignore my needs or overpower me to take something from me.”
    Well, even if a woman breaks up with a guy as soon as she has a bad experience with him, she will still be affected by that bad experience.
    “If I were to flirt with my husband early in the day and tell him I wanted to have sex at nine – then he approaches me at nine and starts putting his hands all over me – but I’m tired and forgot and got busy – has he violated it by not asking me first? Has he violated me if I simply disreagred his advances as a misunderstanding and I don’t feel violated, even though he didn’t ask?”
    Well of course there is some room for interpretation. There is some room for interpretation with the laws we have now. I would say that if you don’t feel violated, you’re not going to allege sexual assault in court, so I don’t see the problem. In the scenario you gave he apparently stopped when he realized you weren’t into it. If, however, he continued and went on to have sex with you in spite of the fact you didn’t want it and made no indication that you did, I think most people would feel somewhat violated.
    What kinds of “studies” do you want? What do you need evidence for? In terms of learning about “affirmative consent,” you can google it and read definitions and opinions on the matter and read about the experiences of the number of schools that have already institutionalized the standard as well as I can provide you links.

  27. Posted April 30, 2007 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    I thought you might like to provide some of your favorite examples of success in this area, but I can Google it.

  28. Posted April 30, 2007 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    Heather, perhaps I was being too vague– I wasn’t talking about my husband and I sitting on the couch, I was talking about when we’re already making out/touching each other/being sexual and preparing ourselves for the penetration part of sex (which is why I chose the word “penetration”) when we give the verbal consent I previously described. We signal our desire to each other up to that stage mostly through enthusiastic kissing and touching of each other. I believe that is a method of affirmative consent, as well. Where as, for example, if he was touching me sexually but I was not giving him any verbal encouragement (“that feels good”) or physical encouragement (kissing him, touching him back), and was instead just laying there and not participating, but NOT telling him to stop, there would not be any affirmative consent and as a considerate and concerned partner, he would stop and ask if I’m okay, or he’s doing something wrong, etc. I think that is what we (or at least I) am talking about as affirmative consent. I’m really getting the impression that you’re misunderstanding what we mean by the way that you seem to be reacting to it so negatively.

  29. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Most of what I know about affirmative consent comes from the organization at my college and personal experience. I don’t really have “favorite” studies per se, and I can’t read your mind to tell you what would convince you it’s a good idea. If you are simply interested in learning some in a general way.
    The “Men Can Stop Rape” site has some information on the matter.
    Here’s a paper with a slightly different view:
    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=782367
    Here’s some philosopher’s view on the matter. I didn’t read it through, but again, I don’t know what constitutes valuable opinions to you, if it requires PhDs or wahtnot:
    http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/bclrarticles/3(2)/wertheimerfinal.pdf
    Also, some colleges are promoting “affirmative consent.” Vanderbilt has a policy. A bunch other colleges do too. But again, given that you may not find the same things compelling I do, I think it might be more affective for you to do research on your own. I’m assuming you want multiple perspectives, and would not research with an agenda to disprove that it’s a good idea.

  30. roymacIII
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    I wish all women would demand the same respect for themselves.
    I think that’s sort of one of the points of advocating enthusiastic consent- you move away from a situation where men and women think that it’s okay for men to force themselves on a woman or ignore a woman’s autonomy, as long as she’s not saying “no.”
    If I were to flirt with my husband early in the day and tell him I wanted to have sex at nine – then he approaches me at nine and starts putting his hands all over me – but I’m tired and forgot and got busy – has he violated it by not asking me first?
    If he comes up, tries to initiate sex as you suggested, but stops or checks in with you when you don’t respond to his advances, then no. However, when you don’t respond with enthusiasm, he should be checking in with you to see if that’s still the plan. If he walks up, sees that you’re not in a good mood, or tries to kiss you and you don’t respond in kind, but he still starts groping at you or trying to fondle you, then I think he’s ignoring enthusiastic consent, and, yes, I think that’s a violation.
    Has he violated me if I simply disreagred his advances as a misunderstanding and I don’t feel violated, even though he didn’t ask?
    A rebuffed attempt is not a violation as long as it was a reasonable advance in the first place. It’s when it’s an unreasonable advance, or it’s an advance despite lack of consent that it moves into the realm of violation. You said you wanted to have sex at 9:00, so it’s reasonable for him to attempt to initiate sex at 9:00. If you don’t respond in kind when he starts initiating, then he should stop, even if you don’t specifically say “no.”
    If I try to kiss someone and she turns her head, she’s rejected my advance. If I then grab her ass, I’m violating her.
    See, what I am having trouble with is the way you guys keep making it sound so easy – you know – he asks “hey baby do you want to” and she says “hell yes” and so forth – and life has taught me that nothing is as simple as it sounds at first, so I am trying to understand all of the “rules” that go with AC and what breaking that rule would mean in terms of criminality and to what degree.
    Honestly, I don’t see that it’s hard. It’s mostly about making sure that your partner/s are actively engaged in the goings-on. It’s about communication- verbal and non-verbal. As Cara says, physical actions can be part of enthusiastic consent. If my partner is grabbing my belt, kissing me passionately, and pulling me to the bed, I think that’s pretty enthusiastic consent. If she stops participating, though, I would stop and check in and make sure that everything was okay in some way. It’s not a complicated series or rules, and, honestly, it sounds like you’re probably already doing it, without calling it that.
    The problem is that people who don’t know each other don’t have the information to accurately gadge all of the non-verbal cues, and we’ve got a lot of men who think that lack of “no” counts as consent because we’ve stressed so much that no means no, but we haven’t stressed as much that lack of no doesn’t mean yes. The idea behind enthusiastic consent is that it’s not okay to have sex with someone who isn’t actively engaged in having sex with you- it’s not enough for the person to give up and yield to pressure- the person has to be actively participating, and providing enthusiastic conent. That can take the form of a “Fuck me now” or it can be that person kissing you passionately while you’re having sex or saying “Oh, god, yes, that feels good” or whatever other of the countless forms of positive reinforcement there are.

  31. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    yep good job, roymac

  32. Posted April 30, 2007 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    It sounds like enthusiastic consent and affirmative consent are two different things.
    Is that correct?

  33. Kimmy
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    No, Heather, as far as I know, it’s just two terms for the same thing.
    And I’d like to chime in as another one who routinely practices affirmative consent in my own sexual relations. I have to agree with whoever said it was hot as hell, because it is.

  34. Posted April 30, 2007 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    I agree that affirmative consent and enthusiastic consent are pretty much interchangeable terms. I suppose that you technically could get affirmative consent that is not particularly enthusiastic, but that would be fairly weird.

  35. Posted April 30, 2007 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    The way it’s been described on here I got the impression that enthusiastic consent could be non-verbal consent given by enthusiastic interaction whereas affirmative consent as you all have described it seems to be sort of a verbal consent of sorts between people who know each other (like Cara and her partner) or more like a verbal contract between people who are less familiar with each other.
    But you are saying that really they pretty much mean the same thing – so it could be verbal/non-verbal – it pretty much entails men being more…er…perceptive I guess is a good word – or taking a more active role in being certian the partner is comfortable.
    I have not been feeling well today and I haven’t yet had a chance to look at the websites that Nina provided. I will though.
    Also – are any of the supporters of EC/AC saying these things should be enforced legally or they are sort of a cultural measure to assure a woman is not violated?

  36. Ninapendamaishi
    Posted April 30, 2007 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    They would, at the least, make for a good cultural measure.
    However, since a number of colleges (including mine) have introduced the principles of affirmative consent into their policies on sexual misconduct and sexual assault to determine whether an allegation of assault actually requires punishment of the perpetrator, I think they could be legal as well.
    One of the links I gave you actually referred to some legal opinions on various sides of the issue. Certainly, it would be legally feasible as much or moreso than the “no means no” rule.

  37. roymacIII
    Posted May 1, 2007 at 8:39 am | Permalink

    The way it’s been described on here I got the impression that enthusiastic consent could be non-verbal consent given by enthusiastic interaction whereas affirmative consent as you all have described it seems to be sort of a verbal consent of sorts between people who know each other (like Cara and her partner) or more like a verbal contract between people who are less familiar with each other.
    You’ll probably find that different people have slightly different standards on that. I think that it’s possible to give enthusiastic/affirmative consent in non-verbal ways. People who lean more towards that Antioch standard think that verbal consent is always required. Generally, I find that most people seem to agree, though, that you can give non-verbal consent, if you’re being active.
    it pretty much entails men being more…er…perceptive I guess is a good word – or taking a more active role in being certian the partner is comfortable.
    Yes.
    The idea is that we all have a responsibility to make sure that our partners are actively engaged in what is happening. Ultimately, I think, the idea is that men will stop assuming consent has been given because there’s a lack of opposition, and women will start to feel more comfortable showing and expressing their actual feelings, because enthusiastic consent is so tied up in communication. Getting people to communicate with each other, especially about sex, is hard, but the result- less rape and better sex- is pretty worth it.
    Also – are any of the supporters of EC/AC saying these things should be enforced legally or they are sort of a cultural measure to assure a woman is not violated?
    Personally, I’d like to see both, to some extent. I think that, in some places, it’s already being tied into legal definitions in some ways. It’s not enough, anymore, for a guy to say that the woman wasn’t saying no- we recognize that there are times when women, for whatever reason, are unable to say no. That a woman hasn’t said “no” doesn’t mean she’s consented. That’s how it ties into legal definitions. I think, at this point, it’s important to start getting it out as a socio-cultural message, though. It’s important to start getting people to think of consent more in terms of affrimation, rather than lack of denial.

  38. Posted May 1, 2007 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    Okay – think I have the concept a bit better.
    Not sure how this will translate from a college situation to the nation as a whole.
    Are any of you dealing with this or seeing it done beyond college?
    Are all of the folks I’m talking to in this thread in college?

  39. Kimmy
    Posted May 1, 2007 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    I’m not in college, although I do work at one. Guess I ought to take a look at whether our policies mention affirmative consent or not.
    I do know that I’ve seen more discussion of “did she consent” in rape cases lately, rather than just “did she say no.” So I think that’s a small step forward. Now we just need to spread the idea into wider and wider areas until everyone (or nearly everyone) is thinking that way.
    It would be a great step to have affirmative consent be part of the legal code, but even just getting the idea out there should be a huge help in people’s attitudes.

  40. EG
    Posted May 1, 2007 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    Are any of you dealing with this or seeing it done beyond college?
    I haven’t been in college for 10 years. I heard about the concept a year or two ago, and have been a fan ever since.

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