Jen & Carmen: Mixed Media Watchers

Jen Chau and Carmen Van Kerckhove first met in 2002. Four years later they run their own diversity training company, New Demographic; a blog, Mixed Media Watch, that focuses on the intersection of race and pop culture; and the biweekly podcast, “Addicted to Race,� that explores America’s obsession with race with a specific emphasis on mixed race and interracial relationships. And all while both holding full-time jobs!
Here’s Jen & Carmen…

How did you two meet and start working together?
Jen: Carmen and I met at a fundraiser for a film that was getting off the ground about mixed identity. But Carmen and I actually kind of met over email before that. She was doing EurasiaNation, the online community, with her sister, Iris. And I was working on Swirl, which is a community organization for mixed people. So, knowing that each of us was doing something to support mixed communities, we definitely wanted to meet each other.
We talked a little bit that night, and then we met up soon afterwards to talk about possibilities for collaboration. We ended up teaming up with one other person to put on this discussion series based in New York City. That was our first act together. We would have panels and discuss issues related to mixed identity. And then from there we started all these other projects. Mixed Media Watch first, and then we started New Demographic in order to bring seminars and workshops to various audiences—college-age students or companies or organizations. And our latest project is Addicted to Race, the podcast.
What perspectives do you two bring to your New Demographic workshops? One example that you give on your website is addressing intercultural communication problems.
Carmen: I think that the unique perspective we bring is having grown up as mixed race women. The thing about being mixed is that your identity is always fluid so it really allows you to move between different circles pretty comfortably.
And then the other unique thing, and this is probably more true for Jen than it is for me, is that very often, if your appearance doesn’t really match your ethnicity, you end up being put in these situations where you’re serving sort of as a racial spy. We have this segment on [Addicted to Race] every now and then where we share specific stories on the interracial spy experience.
So, basically, through being mixed, through these racial spy experiences, and through moving pretty comfortably between different circles, I think the difference that we bring is we’re really looking at race from a very comprehensive perspective. I think what you tend to see a lot of is people who are going to specialize in African American issues, or Asian American issues, or Latino issues. But there aren’t that many forums where you get to talk about all of that together. I think that’s really the approach that we bring. Whether it’s through the New Demographic workshops or whether it’s the way that we talk about race on [Addicted to Race], at the end of the day, we’re all really dealing with a set of issues that have been handed down in the history of race in this country.
Jen: I think another thing that differentiates us from other people who try to do similar work is that we’re trying to use this approach where we’re having down-to-earth discussion. We’re using humor. We talk about race in a way that is honest and really serious when we need to be serious, but also being light-hearted at times.
We’re definitely finding that so many people are just so scared of talking about race; talking about a subject that brings about strong emotions, and that is so controversial. People would rather shy away. So, we’re actually trying to hit all the issues and the topics that people are scared of but to do so in a way that actually brings people into a conversation. And I don’t think we necessarily set out to do that, but that has been our style just because of the way we are. We’re kind of blunt about it and we try to be funny. [Laughs] And from the feedback we’ve gotten, I think people actually appreciate that. It’s different from hearing about race issues from an academic, or hearing about race issues from a typical diversity trainer who is tiptoeing. We try to use a really different approach and I think it actually winds up bringing more people into the discussion.
Have you noticed differences between doing workshops in a corporate or organizational setting versus university setting? Or have you noticed a difference generation-wise of how people react to race or the assumptions they make?
Carmen: We’ve presented to a really broad range of ages. And I think that there are definitely generational racial differences. With older generations, there’s definitely more hesitancy with talking about race. There’s a little bit more comfort amongst younger generations. But what I have noticed is that among younger people, there’s this tendency towards claiming that they’re colorblind. I think that’s really a miss that we’re seeing perpetuated more and more. That people make statements like, “Oh, I don’t even notice race. I don’t see people for their color. I just see them for who they are.� And that’s pretty disingenuous, because we all notice race. When we’re meeting, that’s the first thing that you’re going to notice. Noticing race isn’t racist. It’s only racist when you notice and immediately start making assumptions about the person based on the certain set of characteristics you think a person from a certain race must have.
So, I think that while there’s a lot of talk about the younger generation being more comfortable with race, and dating interracially more often, I think there’s also a danger in glossing over some of the issues and making it seem like there are no problems at all when in fact colorblindness becomes an excuse to shy away from talking about race.
Are there examples you can give of cultural, racial, or mixed-race assumptions that have been made in your workshops?
Jen: There’s so many. Oftentimes people think of diversity trainings as warm and fuzzy. But there are incidents that happen every day that produce a wear and tear on people.
I think that, just from hearing people’s experiences with diversity trainings, it seems like companies do it because they feel that they should. And because they’re not sure how to address it on their own internally. And so you bring in the trainer, or trainers, to have these discussions. But it’s not something that [companies] want to be “disruptive.� They don’t want to completely rile people up. [Laughs] So, how do you talk about [diversity issues] without really getting people upset? But to be quite honest, unless you use an approach to get at how people are really feeling and not make people reactive or so upset, which is how we do things, [Laughs] if you come in to talk about these issues that are never brought up, it’s bound to be a charged discussion. And so, I feel like there has to be a shift in the expectations. Unless a company wants to really do it head on, then you’re really going to have to talk about the issues.
So, we’re steering feedback from people who complete the workshops as well. And we’re receiving feedback from listeners from our podcast. For example, in order to appreciate diversity in the workplace one office decided to have everybody dress up in traditional garb, cook a traditional meal, and sit by their work stations and people would kind of walk on through. I have to laugh; it reminds me of “eatings� in elementary school.
Carmen: Sorry to interrupt. Just to clarify further, one particular detail about that particular incident was that only non-White people were made to dress up. And all the White people served as cultural tourists hopping from one person to the other. [Laughs]
Jen: There’s no discussion there about how you are relating to each other. And are you giving that opportunity to all of your employees? So, it just seems that when a diversity training is done or not, you don’t really get into the deep issues. You don’t get to discuss much beyond the surface because there’s this worry that people will get hurt, or will get upset and riled up. And I think that there needs to be a developmental shift in how we’re thinking about race and diversity in the workplace in the first place.
I think companies may recognize the benefits as being, “Oh, look, we can say we have a diverse staff.� But are you really truly honing in on what diversity brings to your company? Probably not. The only time that you’re actually wanting to recognize it is when you ask people to offer a traditional dish. [Laughs] That’s not really appreciating diversity in a real way. So, it just seems that companies are afraid to take the discussion and deal with it head on. And I think that people just assume that the diversity training is going to be bull because they just want to be able to say they did it. And that’s a shame that now it’s become something you do just to say you did.
Carmen: I just want to come in and chime in a couple more things on that. I think the diversity training, the way it’s usually done, it’s either very softball, as Jen was explaining, or it can sometimes alter situations so that one person feels or is blamed for all the oppression of everybody else. And so, we really take a very different approach. Which is that one of the most important things that we need to talk about when you’re engaging in any kind of antiracism discussion are these stereotypes that exist in every single ethnic group. It’s important to talk about those, and also just to talk about where those come from. It’s not enough to try to change one person at a time and just sort of question them and say, “Why do you have these beliefs about this group of people?� We all do! We all hold these different beliefs! We hold these beliefs because of the long history of images being fed to us. There are very deep, historical and structural roots to all these beliefs. I think that’s another thing that’s unique about our approach is that we demonstrate very clearly exactly where all the stereotypes come from. And so, once you do that, you kind of take the sort of guilt factor away a little bit and then you realize that this is not just about, “Oh, you’re a bad person for thinking these things.� It’s about something much larger.
Jen: It’s about realizing where all that information comes from in the first place. We’ve learned these messages, all of us, throughout our lives. I think it’s really a question of bringing those up and challenging them.
Do you think those taking your workshop have a good idea of stereotypes and assumptions that are made about mixed-race people?
Jen: I think it depends. Mixed-race people who have been in our audiences usually will say, “Oh, thank goodness.� [Laughs] So, obviously mixed-race people can relate and understand what we’re saying. But even then, I don’t think a lot of people have necessarily had a chance to talk about all of the things we bring up in our workshops.
I think the majority of people who are not mixed race are not used to it, or are people who have had no idea. They’ve thought of mixed-race people in the stereotypical positive way, “Oh, mixed-race people have the best of both worlds. They’re going to be the bridges to a color-blind world. All mixed-race people are beautiful.� That’s the kind of stereotypical, cliché thinking that a lot of people have when they’re not [mixed race]. Of course there are some people who will say, “Yeah, I have a mixed family member, a friend, and I’m kind of familiar with the issues.� But I think the majority are hearing these things for the very first time.
Carmen: I think another thing that people come away with is realizing that “positive� stereotypes are harmful as well. It’s disappointing to a lot of people because after going through all the various stereotypes, you realize that positive stereotypes can be just as dehumanizing as negative ones. Positive stereotypes often come at the expense of another group. So, if you’re praised for being mixed, often times by default, the unknown spoken notion is that therefore this other group is somehow inferior. Therefore they’re less deserving of whatever.
I think that’s another important point. People are so used to seeing racism as burning crosses, and wearing hoods, and racial slurs. But in reality, positive stereotypes can be just as racist.
Jen: I just want to add one more thing. I think another positive benefit that comes out of our workshops that have to deal with mixed-race identity is that one of the messages that we’re really trying to bring is that mixed-race people are not trying to separate themselves. I think people come away from our workshops with an understanding that, “OK, because Jen and Carmen are sharing this information, they’re not trying to say, ‘We’re a complete separate class of people and that we should be treated a certain way, and that we should have our own community on a random island somewhere.’� Many of us identify as mixed, but we also identify with our other communities. And I think that’s something that a lot of people don’t know, get, or understand. I think a lot of times the misconception about mixed-race organizing is that we’re trying to completely separate ourselves. And that is not the case, at all.
Student groups will say, “Oh, my gosh, how can we reach out to our mixed Asian students here on campus?� Well, we’re not reaching them because we’re not looking for them. Or you did find them, and they didn’t want to be a part of the group. So, it sheds some light on community. The Asian community is more diverse than you think. Mixed people probably do want to be a part of it but for whatever reason, they’re not coming to you. I like to bring people together, and build this awareness.

What are your views on a multiracial box for use in government and educational censuses?
Carmen: That’s a whole other set of misinformation and misunderstanding that’s out there when it comes to racial classification. I would say the majority of organizations in the mixed-race community are against a multiracial box. What we’re standing behind is what the 2000 Census offered, which is the ability to check multiple races. Because the danger of a multiracial box is if you look at the people who are really trying to push that multiracial box, it’s people like Ward Connelly who are trying to get rid of affirmative action, and who want to try to abolish racial classifications altogether. And the multiracial box is one step to accomplishing that.
The problem with not defining is, for example I’m Chinese and White. If I were to check a multiracial box, and then I experienced racial discrimination on the basis that I’m of Asian descent, there’s no way for me to follow up that complaint because there’s no racial data on what I actually am. I’m just this morphus multiracial box that is pretty meaningless. And so basically, the whole “check one or more� is really a necessary step up to ensure civil rights monitoring.

From your work on Mixed Media Watch, what stereotypes do you think the mainstream media is most guilty of perpetuating of mixed-race people?
Jen: I think the most is that mixed-race people are these exotic, beautiful beings. You see that time and time again. You see a lot of it on “America’s Next Top Model� when mixed models are constantly praised for being exotic. You see it constantly in articles about musicians or celebrities, “Oh, they’re exotic because their mother is from here and their father is from here.� Usually people are praised for having a mother and father of different ethnicities and it doesn’t go much farther beyond that.
If you look at models, more and more, they’re ambiguous looking. And it makes sense, you get more bang for your buck if you have someone who is ambiguous looking and can appear in an ad in a Black publication and in a Latino publication. And it’s even better if you can put that person in an Asian publication, too. Most mixed people are just appreciated for their looks. It’s just the idea that mixed people are the way of the future, and we’re hip. We represent modern. I think that’s the most common.
Carmen: And the whole idea that mixed race people represent this future without racism. That whole utopian fantasy is pretty dangerous because then basically, if mixed people are going to solve the racist problems of the world simply by existing, then what does everybody else do? [Laughs] Everybody else gets to just sit on their laurels and wait until the day when the world is run over by completely mixed-race people. That’s one problem. And the other problem is that it completely ignores the fact that as a mixed-race person you yourself can be racist. Also, it ignores the fact that within an interracial relationship there can be a lot of racism as well. The relationship can be based only on a racial fetish, a kind of sexual fascination with the race. Also, I definitely know of relationships where a partner may see his or her spouse as the exception to the rule. For example, that in general, s/he is part of this entire group but then they see that person as an exception to that. So, simplistic notions of being the best of both worlds, and bringing about this colorless future is pretty dangerous.
The first anniversary of Addicted to Race was July 24th. What are some of your favorite episodes of the podcast so far?
Jen: I think that my favorite is a tie between my interview with Octavia Butler, because she’s one of my favorite authors, and with this debate that Carmen and I had on the “Boondocks� because I thought it was a rare moment. [Laughs] Carmen and I kind of joke about the fact that we kind of agree on so much, which is probably why we work so well together, because we have the same goals. But we had this one disagreement about the “Boondocks� TV show. That’s one thing that we have consistently disagreed on. I just liked it because it was different. [Laughs]
Carmen: I would say that I really enjoy the rants that we do on the show. One of the rants that I did was on the limitations of racial satire. And basically, I was talking about the fact that these things like “The Chapelle Show� and cartoons or comic strips like the “Boondocks,� or the recent “Confederate States of America� [movie], talking about race in satirical terms, ultimately, do they do more harm than good? What happens when your audience doesn’t really get that you’re being satirical? So, I think that was an interesting show. We got a lot of feedback.
And I think another that was my favorite was a rant from Jen on the “Oppression Olympics.� Which is the way that ethnic groups try to out-oppressive each other? [Laughs] Trying to find the right verb! But basically, the constant struggles to say, “We have it worse off than you. At least you have this going for you, we have it much worse off.� It’s really ridiculous jockeying for a position between different communities of color when in reality, the roots of oppression are really wide, and are part of the same kind of common history of common stereotypes and media structures.