Moe and Tracie of Jezebel appeared on a show called Thinking and Drinking recently, with host Lizz Winstead. What ensued has been the subject of many blog posts, a whole lot of comments and a ton of emails to Feministing. I was tempted not to write about this at all, because it seems like a no-win situation: The damage is done, the whole thing was sad, and writing about it very much feels like beating a dead (and drunk) horse.
But the thing is, this is important. As many of you know, I'm on vacation this week with the boyfriend - and despite being all relaxed and laying around, this video caused quite a stir among my friends who were here with us over the weekend. We sat around for a good couple of hours discussing what it means to be a role model, apathy, rape "jokes" and the use of irony and sarcasm in feminism. So it's clear to me that there are plenty of jumping off points for progressive and useful discussion.
For those of you who haven't already been following it, here's what went down.
Moe and Tracie appeared on Lizz's show drunk. Very drunk, it seems. You can watch the whole video here, and the more controversial clips here and here. I was pretty much appalled by the whole interview. But it was the commentary about rape, abortion and birth control that have garnered the most criticism. There really are too many quotable quotes for me to get into them all, so I won't (you can see some here). The gist of it is Moe and Tracie said some extremely offensive and uninformed things - especially about rape - that they're now being taken to task for. (They were later said to be jokes, but no one in the audience laughed.) I don't see the point in fisking everything they said (or some of the cringe-inducing things Lizz said - like berating Moe for not reporting her rape), but I do think it's worth talking about the larger themes that this fiasco has brought up.
Here's the short version for those who don't feel like reading this monster of a post: 1) Whether or not you say you represent feminism, when you write about the subject to a ridiculously large audience, openly identify as a feminist, and make appearances to talk about feminism - you are taking on responsibility for the way feminism is portrayed. 2) It's awesome to use irony and humor as a tool - but if you're using it in a way that hurts women, is it really worth it?
Role models and representing feminism
Some reactions around the blogosphere include the idea that Moe and Tracie don't present themselves as feminist role models and that they were blind-sided by Lizz, who asked questions that were too serious.
By writing for a large audience and agreeing to make public appearances, you are making yourself a public figure - and sometimes a role model. And I don't think it's fair to ask readers to care about your writing and opinions, but when things don't go well or you say something you regret, to tell those same readers that no one should be taking you seriously to begin with. It also doesn't behoove any public figure to suggest that you were ambushed by serious questions, or that you weren't prepared. (In this case, both writers were given pre-interviews and past videos of what the show was like, and knew the topics would include politics and feminism.) If you're not prepared to answer a question, don't say anything. Or refer the interviewer to someone else. The idea that these writers were somehow "set up" to answer serious questions when they were drunk is beyond condescending. Moe and Tracie are professional, paid writers; they are grown women who went to a professional public appearance. They should be held accountable to the things that they said. And while I agree with Amanda about where the two women were coming from, I'm still tempted to ask: so what? Even sad hipster girls who are negotiating their way through patriarchy have some responsibility for the things they say when their job is about writing for and influencing young women.
On being a feminist role model: I have no idea if Moe and Tracie think they represent young feminism (I'm guessing they would say no). After all, how can any one person speak for a movement as nuanced and diverse as feminism? I've certainly thought that myself. But I'm not stupid, and neither are Tracie or Moe. When you agree to speak and do media appearances on feminism, when you use feminism as a justification for writing controversial pieces and when you call yourself a feminist to a tremendous audience, you are representing feminism whether you like it or not. And you know what? I've said things while "speaking for feminism" that I've regretted. It happens. I'm not a perfect spokeswoman, no one is - but that's not an excuse to be flip about it.
And that's what really upset me about this. Whether or not Moe and Tracie believe they're speaking for a movement, for many that's what the takeaway is. And when, in this video at least, they embody all of the things that young feminists, and young women in general, are constantly (falsely) accused of being - uninformed, apathetic, callous, sex-obsessed, etc - it is incredibly frustrating. A lot of young women are working hard to battle back against this stereotype, and videos like this do us no favors.
Apathy, irony and using humor towards a positive goal
Another theme I thought made an appearance here was using humor, irreverence or irony as a tool - some are saying that this was Moe and Tracie's intent, and some viewers just didn't get it. Now, I am a pretty damn sarcastic person. At Feministing we use irony and subversive humor plenty to make larger points (and sometimes just to be smart-asses). And I think that it's an incredibly useful tool in writing, politics and activism. I also think that many of the Jezebel writers do this very, very well.
And while I somewhat accept the explanation that some of the more offensive comments were jokes that fell flat - I'm still struggling to see what the larger point was. What is all of this irony and outragousness in service of? And yeah, I get the cool-ironic I-don't-give-a-shit thing; I lived in Williamsburg, had a boyfriend with a stupid mustache, and did my fair share of regrettable drunk things. But l'm asking this with all sincerity, as someone who has an interest in moving the conversation forward: What is the point? That's not to say that I can't appreciate a good joke just for humor's sake. Joking about serious feminist issues can be funny. I don't even think you need those jokes to be towards some larger feminist goal, or to benefit women. Humor just for fun is great - unless it's for fun at women's expense. (Which I'd argue these jokes were.) And when your humor about rape mirrors offensive things you've written in all seriousness and soberness on your blog, it's hard to accept the excuse that these were all simply jokes that people didn't get.
And while snarkiness about rape may make for good traffic, it also can actively hurt women. These are writers working for a huge site, with a huge budget, who have a very real influence over a tremendously large audience. Jezebel says that it wants to be the "sort of women's magazine we'd want to read," and to take "all the essentially meaningless but sweet stuff directed our way and give it a little more meaning, while taking more the serious stuff and making it more fun, or more personal..." And that's great - and it's something that its writers can do without falling into the trap of being all about irony for irony's sake or narcissistic self indulgence. If we're going to make the more serious stuff more fun and personal, let's do it to the benefit of women, not the detriment.
To a large extent, I really didn't want to write about this at all; I don't think there was much, if any, thought put into the interview. But I do have to respond. Because I deeply care about the way that feminism is portrayed, the ways that feminist issues get talked about and how to create a better world for women. And maybe that makes me some post-hipster too-earnest uncool idealist, but I'd rather be a dork with a cause than a nihilist with a lot of page views.
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There's another issue that's getting overlooked, namely alcohol.
Lately there seems to be a trend of incorporating alcohol into progressive events (Thinking and Drinking, Drinking Liberally, Green Drinks, etc.) The idea appears to be to create a more relaxed and fun environment, but this interview is a great example of the downside. In addition to being extremely alienating to those who have suffered abuse in alcoholic households, events such as these form associations between their goals and drunken irresponsibility.
The idea of incorporating drinking into any event that could have or is intended to have widespread consequences seems ridiculous to me. People just don't do their best work when they're drinking (Drinking and Surgery anyone?) I'm not saying that alcohol is inherently bad, but I am saying that it's a big mistake to act as if it's inherently good.
Oh fucking waah. These girls write endlessly about sex and shitting and stinky tampons left in their cooches for a week, and then they're "blind-sided" by questions about sex and things that are too icky serious? Puh-leese. Slut Machine even posted a notice for the event on her blog saying, "Lizz will be interviewing us, I'm guessing about feminism and sex and politics and this "over-sharing" business." They knew what they'd be interviewed about.
I've checked out Jezebel several times and can honestly say I find nothing that even approaches "all the essentially meaningless but sweet stuff directed our way and give it a little more meaning," not "even" when they deride celebs for wearing ugly shit, or try to convince me that Delia's catalogs are really feminist-friendly because all the girls are smiling! Yay!
Thank you for posting on this. I think it is hard because these two almost feel like friends. It's easy to call out the hard core misogynists or rapists, but much harder to call out those who we know share some of our values.
We live in a world where some would like to deny rape even exists or would like to blame the victim far too often. Some women are not even allowed to say the word rape in their attackers trials. We simply cannot let ANYONE, men or women, feminists or conservatives to further undermine that situation without protest.
'I'd rather be a dork with a cause than a nihilist with a lot of page views.'
And that pretty much says it all. I want that on a t-shirt, for real.
Kind of off-topic, but I don't understand why the comment that "pulling out is the most fun way not to get pregnant" is being subject to such ridicule. The withdrawal method can have a success rate comparable to condoms when done correctly. Yet it has such a bad rap.
Pulling out gets a bad rap because it does not take pre-cum into account, which can cause pregnancy. Also, doing it correctly is difficult and quite prone to miscalculation, especially in the heat of the moment. Lastly, it does not prevent STDs.
I love Jezebel. And do you know why? Not because of the editors, though I do like some of them quite a lot (especially Dodai). I love the commenters. The main posts are really just the jumping off point for reliably hilarious, interesting, and insightful comments. I have never found another blog whose comments I reliable want to read. If you don't "get" Jezebel, I have to ask if you have read the comments before. A lot of people just comment on the front page content, and if that's all you've ever looked at, you are completely missing why that blog means a lot to a lot of us.
Nowhere in this entire brouhaha has anyone mentioned the community that Jezebel creates. It is a community of funny, irrevent, honest women who support, challenge, and listen to each other. Sure, there are dust ups and flare ups, but if you ACTUALLY READ that thread on Jezebel about this issue (and there are nearly 1200 comments), you will see how much people care about that site, and each other. They reason this is a big deal is because WE CARE about that community. And I've been part of real-life meet ups via Jezebel where I have met some wonderful women in real life. Again, the community that blog inspires amazes me, and I think it's something to celebrate, warts and all.
(And for the record, OF COURSE I am disappointed in Moe and Tracie. But they do not represent the totality of Jezebel, or feminism. Before you write something off like some commenters here are doing, maybe you should try to understand why it means a lot to some of us and not just focus on the bad, icky, or unappealing parts. Hm, that sounds like how I defend feminism in general a lot).
Thank you for posting on this- I agree that this dust-up seems sort of blogosphere-specific or whatever, but it touches on so many issues that I think we as feminists today do deal with.
I definitely agree that Moe and Tracie dropped the ball (I watched the whole interview on the Shoot the Messenger web site); first with the drinking and then with their flippancy. For me though, these two women continued in real life the tone and level of the discussions they engage in on Jezebel.com. I was not surprised to hear them say the things they did say, only a little embarrassed for them.
Having said that, I am surprised that no one here has mentioned Lizz's reaction as a negative. Granted, Tracie and Moe's statements were def. controversial, and at times dumb and unelaborated, but to me Lizz's constant lecturing and patronizing tone were what really tipped the whole interview into the toilet. I couldn't help but be reminded of the 2nd vs. 3rd wave issue, and how Moe especially does not heart older feminists just for the sake of their being older. Maybe it's because I work with a bunch of older women and I hear that shit CONSTANTLY, but it was that part of the interview that bothered me the most.
Additionally, I've always felt, for better or for worse, that the writers on Jezebel embrace the 'feminist' label only up to a point. I think there is a deliberate refusal there to do what they see as kowtowing to the ideologies of what Moe refers to as the "bonerkiller squad." So again, no surprise that Moe and Tracie were as flip and apathetic as they were. Would I have been the same, myself? No- but I am not them and they are not me.
I also take issue with the idea that Moe and Tracie are supposed to be role models. What is a "role model?" Mothers, fathers, celebrities, politicians? Who among these groups has NEVER made a mistake? Tracie especially insists that her life is her own, and that she neither recommends to others how to live theirs nor holds her own up as an exemplary specimen.
The saddest thing here is that for all the commonalities that Lizz, Tracie and Moe share (white, college-educated, in the entertainment/media industry), they seemed to be talking across a gap as vast as the Grand Canyon. Lizz seemed VERY disturbed at how Tracie and Moe presented themselves and their views, while Tracie and Moe were approaching the issues Lizz brought up from a very limited, personal perspective that went mostly unarticulated because they were both so "blotto" as Tracie puts it. It's like, can we have a do-over?????
Finally, the worst part of it for me was Moe, who so clearly (unless this was some super-Sarah-Silverman in-the-Aristocrats humor that I was not able to catch) needs to deal with the issues brought up by her date rape. I mean, every statement she makes is punctuated by a LOOONG pull of her beer. Moe is so awesome, I love her stream of consciousness-y writing and her fuck-it attitude. For Lizz to chastise her for not reporting her rape is so heinous.
What happened to sisterhood? I mean, not every women is a feminist. Does that mean we reject her womanhood, and treat her as the enemy (Ann Coulter does not count)? Shouldn't we try to engage more of the disparate voices out there (which includes many WoC, differently-abled and LGBT women who do not ID as feminist because they feel there is no room for them or their voices), rather than castitgate members of our own ranks? Just saying.
I thought the interview had good entertainment value. Clearly the audience thought so too because there was lots of spontaneous laughter.
Feminist-value-propagation value? Not so much...
I think we might want to just get over the idea that Jezebel is primarily, or even secondarily, a feminist site.
Part of the issue that some seem blind to is that this was not a one-time mistake. It was more like the final straw.
Tracie trivialized rape in a prior post where she said the 13-year-old who was ass raped by Roman Polanski knew what she was getting into because 1.) it was the 70s and 2.) she knew what a quaalude was.
Let's see, she's also trivialized STD transmission - she never tells her partners she has herpes and HPV and condoms are optional.
She also also thinks watching a developmentally disabled girl get fucked on camera is hysterical.
She also tells readers how to stay thin - order prescription drugs like aderall off the internet. Drink a lot.
Now this.
I don't consider Jezebel much of a community to share disparate ideas when the first person who points to the Polanski court documents and says Tracie's take on it is out of line, is banned, bazam. As were several other people who criticized this incident.
I like her too. She's a talented and funny writer. But at what point do you say, I can't continue to support ideas that undermine everything other women are working to have taken seriously? Like rape. Like exploitation. Like drug addiction. Like responsible sexuality. Like compassion for others.
For me and many others, that time has come. I hope she grows up. I hope she has better things to say in the future. But I can't continue to look the other way anymore.
an unabashed sexually adventurous feminist asserts that her smarts have allowed her to be a slut machine without being raped. I want it to believe it's that simple. Really.
No one was watching, but one slow news day in the twenty four hour news cycle later and tracie and moe are a talking-points bullet.
They are consistent, no one versed in the Jez should be shocked by any of this. Furthermore, I don't come here or jezebel to have my worldview mirrored, I come to be challenged.
The challenge this week is to maintain your dignity while being disappointed in two chicks you have a mad crush on.
Archie never had to deal with THIS shit...
jessica, thanks for the great response to this.
this is exactly why i hardly ever read jezebel anymore. there were moments in the interview that would have been hilarious in a different context, but i think as funny as tracie and moe are and as good at being hip and edgy, they showed their true colors by making such ignorant, careless statements.
let's just put it this way, i think it's possible to be both brilliantly mocking and hilarious AND thoughtful and informed. feministing achieves this balance to a t and something tells me that no matter how drunk we got jessica et al, they just wouldn't say anything this callous and stupid because deep down they don't think it's true.