I hear the word "breeder" applied to women that are pregnant or with small children quite often. I hear it both from the gay community and (more frequently) from straight women who identify themselves as feminists.

The idea that there is even a word to denigrate people who have families speaks volumes about how much our attitudes have changed in the last 50 years.

Not every feminist holds negative views towards having children. However, some very vocal feminists do and no doubt have influenced others into their way of thinking.

Personally I believe no one should feel ashamed for having children.

Perhaps she's too angry at her to see any truth in the things you point out.

I read this post over three times to parse out my reactive emotions with what is really being said here.

My initial feeling about Walker's view of the feminist movement is that many, many people leave the religion of their childhoods for the same reasons. Feminism, like any god's love (in theory, OK? let's go with this assumption), is perfect and beautiful: it's only when it gets defined and exercised by us silly humans that it gets distorted and horrible.

My feelings are that it is hard to be a feminist in this world and raise future adults. No matter what, you feel like you've betrayed someone, whether it's the kids, the feminist movement (by weakening the argument that women don't need to be mommies to feel fulfilled, by staying at home or downsizing the career instead of "having it all" - I swear, you have to be on meth or something to have it all), or your own desires.

I also want to recount one conversation I had with an older mom, who felt very embittered toward birth control pills. As a young woman in the 1960's, newly graduated from college and ready to start her career, she was under the impression that she could take the Pill and put off parenthood indefinitely, and then have a baby on her own terms. I don't know how the Pill was marketed back when it first came out, but needless to say, when she was in her mid 40's she was unable to conceive. I could see her directing this toward feminism, even though responsibility for her situation belongs elsewhere.

It's entirely possible that, as the younger Walker works through her relationship with her mother, she might see that feminism wasn't to blame, even if it might have been the vehicle or the reason why her mother made certain choices for them. Sure, it hurts that she feels this way about feminism, but I also feel that she is brave to state these feelings, because while it can sound so terribly un-PC, it is the truth about how she feels today.

This is a heartbreaking read.

It also illustrates the dangerous nature of any form of extremism, right and left have no mitigating influence when you're talking about that kind of extreme mentality.

As a little kid in the 70's I certainly felt some of the influence of some of the more anti-male/anti-child persons involved with my mother through her association with NOW. While most of her peers were not jerks towards me there were certainly a few who made me feel bad about my own gender or being a "burden" on my mother. Thankfully my mom never mirrored this attitude, although the fact that she did permit its display I suppose it a little bit shitty.

{{{{{hugs}}}} to Ms. Walker.

I definitely have to agree with Courtney. I am deeply saddened by what happened in her childhood, but I am also shocked by the way that she blames feminism for betraying an entire generation of women into childlessness. It's odd because so often anti-feminists rip on the feminist movement by calling it anti-mothering, which made it easy to write them off because they didn't seem to know much about the movement. But now Rebecca Walker is saying this, who is someone I incredibly admire and who was one of many that helped me to realize that I am a feminist. It is just confusing to me.

But this motherhood issue is a big topic. For my mom, motherhood is equated with the giving up of other dreams, and without the support of an egalitarian relationship or better childcare programs, women may still feel like they have to compromise in one area or another. As a college student, I have even gone through the struggle of will I have time to be a parent in this career direction or will I have enough money in another direction. How often to college men ask these questions? Parenting is still very much seen as women's issue and we still don't have a great system set up that supports working moms (just look at France's childcare, maternity leave, vacation and other policies).

But perhaps this piece will inspire more discussion about motherhood between feminists and others.

Reading Rebecca's piece is very saddening. I can't imagine having that kind of relationship (or lack thereof) with my mother. But I think it's...reactionary? exaggerated? to make generalized statements about what feminism is based on that experience. It's her experience and it's totally valid and obviously would affect her viewpoint - but she's such an intelligent woman that I'm surprised she would allow it to completely encompass her viewpoint (which it seems is what she's doing at times, though I don't claim to know her heart, of course).

She says that "feminism has much to answer for denigrating men and encouraging women to seek independence whatever the cost to their families". I don't know - I don't see feminism as having done these things on a large scale. Sure, there are always people on the extreme end of any spectrum, and her mother could be considered one in this case. But of the feminists that I know - and granted, I'm young and most of them are as well - denigration of men and abandonment of family are not things they champion.

I'm not as familiar with Alice Walker as many other feminists probably are, but it seems to me that a woman who thinks raising children is a form of slavery is a little out there. Especially if she has a child! Yes, at the time she got pregnant (1969 or so, based on Rebecca's age) abortion was still illegal and a woman not having children was practically a heretic - but if her views were this strong about it, I'm left to wonder why she didn't avoid it as strongly as possible? Or why she didn't give her daughter up for adoption? It sounds like she held these views from the time of her daughter's birth or before. Personally, I do not want children and thus...I won't have them. Whatever the situation, I think a woman having children when she doesn't really want them is a terrible thing. It ends up with....adults like Rebecca, who grew up feeling unwanted and resented by their own mothers.

And I agree about that last bit - I think that "middle ground" she's searching for will be well-populated when she finds it; I imagine the majority of mothers would love to live there, too.

WHA? On what planet has feminism "betrayed an entire generation of women into childlessness"?! I am almost 42, don't have children, likely never will. I felt lots of pressure throughout my 20s and 30s to do nothing but HAVE children. The best I can say is now that I'm in my 40s, people don't really bring it up, and it's not viewed as some great tragedy -- in fact, my sisters with children are totally supportive.

Her childhood sounds shitty, but I think therapy would have been a good option to this crazy essay.

I'm not sure I'd call the younger Walker's thoughts and comments "vicious" (at least, not what I've seen in the article linked to).

She clearly has pain and upset about her childhood. It's not the pain that I have issue with, it's her generalizations about Feminism that I think is misplaced.

I too grew up in a '70's second wave feminist household. I too have parenting issues. But I'm pretty clear that any problems in my experience are due to personal, not political, issues.

I don't think anyone outside the family can really say what happened. It's wrong to assume that the descriptions are true, and as equally wrong to doubt their trueness. Both people on each side of a relationship will have a different view of events.

But any truth about the painful events described sounds like a lack of empathy to me, a failure to take into account how the individual feels, not a political viewpoint causing pain.

Maybe the personal isn't always as political as we think.

I think Rebecca Walker is shading the truth (at the very least). The whole tone of her article was a pity party from the opening paragraph, and her *lack* of anger at the father who seemingly left her with a neglectful mother makes me scratch my head. I also find it incredibly ironic that around the same time she published this hate screed against her mother, she posted *another* essay where she lauded Alice Walker for giving her access to all sorts of cool people and experiences growing up.

Other things I really didn't like -

- Has it ever occurred to her that her mother wasn't happy that she was pregnant because the father was fourteen years her senior and had no intention of marrying her?

- If a child so deserves two parents, why hasn't Rebecca Walker married her boyfriend?

- I do not for one minute believe that she was allowed to walk to preschool at the age of *one*. Kids that age can barely toddle, let alone walk down the street.

- I really pity her son when he reaches the age where he doesn't want his mother smothering him and making him the center of her life. I also hope that he bears no physical resemblance to her mother, because the level of rage that comes through in that article has to have *some* outlet, and if her kid ends up being another writer, or even having his grandmother's physical mannerisms, God help him.

- I hope to God she never has a daughter. Seriously.

I found it interesting that she was unable to separate her own choices from the lives of woman everywhere. She is usually quite insightful and inclusive so it is surprising to hear phrases like "what really matters--a happy family". What matters to you, Rebecca. What matters to you.

Maybe it is easier to pretend that your mom would have been a great mom if the feminist revolution hadn't come along and ruined everything, instead of acknowledging that hey, maybe your mom is just a bad mom all on her own.

There have been women who aren't good at motherhood since women first started having babies, long before feminism showed up.

But I understand how clinging to the idea that it is the fault of some external force is somewhat comforting.

As a contemporary of Rebecca's, whose story is an eerily similar to my own, I totally get her anger and resentment. I too blamed my mother, who was in the throes of the feminist revolution, and maybe who wouldn't even have chosen to have kids in another time that allowed more choices. She sure wasn't Ms. Happy Homemaker.

But I don't blame my mother any more. She was trying to make a better world for me and other women, in her clunky way. And what's the point of blaming a social political movement? It happened. The early days were messy, and some of the women born in the 60s and 70s were casualties of it. It sucks to be one of them, but honestly, wouldn't it suck worse if it never happened?

That said, Alice and Rebecca sound like they have some conflicts that go way beyond political movements. Some people would be shitty parents no matter what their personal or political views.

I had the same reaction. My mother is also, and has been since before I was born, a feminist, and I never felt any of the hostility or neglect that Rebecca Walker experienced. (In fact, I was probably closer to having been smothered with love and protection, haha.) She taught me about the difficulties of being a professional and a mother, but she always pointed out that it was the structure of society that created these difficulties.

The cynical side of me says that the feminism-bashing was in there to get it published. (The Daily Mail does love bashing feminism.) It also may just emerge from the writer's pain. It's hard to see subtleties when you hurt, and I think for some people it's comforting to connect their own struggles with something larger. Makes it feel less immediate, I guess?

is it a take down if her allegations are true?

But i do agree that she did swing too far in the other direction. maybe she's just a bit confused and hurt. for now anyway

Yet another woman who got a chance to learn to read, gets a chance to speak up in public, etc., uses those chances, and then complains about feminism as if she thinks keeping women illiterate and silent isn't far less feminist...

I was very upset to find Rebecca Walker blaming feminism for her childhood. But I also felt that her mother didn't deserve that sort of public treatment. And not because she's famous; even if that sort of thing were true about my own family, I wouldn't dare print it for half the internet to see.

What also bothered me is that she assumes that all women want to have children. I do not want to have children, not under any circumstances, and am trying to get sterilized at the young age of 24, because I KNOW that I never want children. Not all women want to be mothers, and not all women feel fulfilled by being mothers. It scares me that people still think such things.

I agree with your thoughts - I've never thought of feminism as anti-mother, although it may question patriarchal archetypes of motherhood. In fact, I've read many feminist texts appreciating the work of mothers that go unrecognized. In reading this expose, it is clear that Rebecca Walker has been deeply wounded by her relationship with her mother. While we haven't heard Alice Walker's position, I seriously doubt that Rebecca Walker is publishing pure lies, and I'm also certain Alice Walker will take a different perspective. It pains me to think of Alice Walker, I woman I have idolized, as selfish, arrogant, seeking the spotlight. However, Alice Walker certainly wouldn't be the first famous sub-par parent. There are plenty of stories of successful, famous people who turn out to be rotten as fathers or mothers. It particularly stings the public when it's a mother because of the ways we revere mothers and condemn those who don't meet our expectations. I can think of some famous men who put their work before their children and have been publicly criticized for it. For example, Nelson Mandela (before and after he was imprisoned) or Ghandi.

There's an interesting article at Salon about this topic by Phillis Chesler, who makes some interesting parallels to other mother-daughter public splits. However, I really worry about the way this particularly relationship might become erroneously "emblamatic" of feminist motherhood in the media. (http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2008/06/10/walkers/index.html)

Yeah, I was actually really surprised by that essay - I don't think she's outright blamed feminism for her relationship with her mother before. I've actually always respected Rebecca Walker - I saw her speak a couple of years ago, and while she sort harped on how glorious motherhood is a little, she also had interesting things to say about masculinity and making the movement more inclusive. At least I got the impression that she identified as a feminist, and considered herself part of making the movement better.

Also, I've read some Alice Walker stuff where she revels in being a mother and was totally awestruck by Rebecca's childhood development. Perhaps her writing isn't always indicative of her reality, but I've never seen anything by Alice Walker where she straight out writes about hating motherhood, or being sad that she had Rebecca. I know part of Rebecca's complaint is that she wrote too much personal stuff, so I don't know.

I guess I just feel like everyone has some sore spots in their relationships with their parents, and some of that is because of ideology, and some of that is because you can't be so close to someone without feeling kind of freaked out about it.

You know, I was just mulling over a post that would try to articulate what it is I want from a feminist theory of motherhood that I'm having trouble finding, and someone recced me this book.

I dunno. It's hard, because age-wise, I'm not only one of those women who paid the now-much-discussed price of waiting to spawn (I didn't pay it as high as some, but I did pay), but I'm squarely between second and third waves, and finding a feminist community that cares about things like intersectionality but is at the least not overtly hostile to, let alone sympathetic to, the desire for and active pursuit of motherhood, has been a challenge. There have been things said right here on this blog's comments that have left me pretty damned depressed about the whole thing.

I'm looking hard for a theory that looks critically at the whole notion of choices (that is, exams how much the choice to work or stay home is not only a function of things like class and social pressure, but also examines how my individual choice can impact other women by contributing to social constructions), but that still values parenting as something worth doing well. What I do know is that there are a whole lot of women like me, who are struggling not just to find that middle ground, but to find support for the search.

Every time I hear this story, I keep envisioning a nice big venn diagram, with "feminists" on one side, "shitty mothers" on the other, and small sliver of overlap in the middle.

She makes a generalization from her personal experiences with a feminist icon to all of feminism, which I find weak. She seems to want to punish "feminism" for her mother's failures.

But I don't see it as a rejection or indictment of the gains of feminism. Shouldn't feminists be accountable to their personal relationships as well?

Adding: having read Walker's article, I suspect that part of the issue here is that Alice Walker used feminism as a justification for just plain not wanting to be a mother, and instead of examining that critically (which might be too much to expect of someone and might not, I honestly don't know), Rebecca Walker accepted it, and has thus projected her mother's bad parenting onto feminism.

I think her viewpoint is very fair. She has some issues with feminism that she wanted to air, and she has the right to do that. I realize that anecdotal evidence is less credible than research, but posts to this site have cited anecdotes as well and respect them. (Think the post on the doctor who practiced during the pre-Roe v. Wade era.)

She is not the only who says that feminism has issues to work out with motherhood, and I am glad that she speaks her mind. We cannot progress into the future without open dialogue on issues.

This post kind of made me sad lol. I understand what you are trying to say, and I don't think that Rebecca's quotes do feminism any favors. However, I read " Black, White, and Jewish " by Rebecca and did not leave the book feeling like Rebecca was saying her mother was bad, and feminism was to blame. The book focuses on her childhood, which yes did feature neglect, but I dont think this was put in to give a big eff you to Alice Walker. I took away from that book that no matter who you are, how perfect things seem, everyone faces fucked up times. Because of this I think her book reaches out to not only those who read feminist texts. I see this as a positive thing.

I don't know, I just admire both Rebecca and Alice Walker. It makes it hard to think negatively of her, but I understand where you are coming from. We can just hope that the works of Amy Richards, and the ones who follow will help move society away from the thought that Walker is helping push along.

Mina, you frame basic things as privileges that have been bestowed on women by Feminists. It's not accurate, and it seems weird.

Those aren't "privileges that have been bestowed on women by Feminists," those are "basic things" that women wouldn't have the opportunity to do if feminists hadn't fought for them. I see no problem with Mina's framing.

So Rebecca Walker alleges that her talented, famous mother was basically a narcissist and therefore a bad mother. What does that have to do with feminism? Newsflash: You don't need to be a feminist to be a bad mom. And there are lots of kids of feminists who laud their mothers' feminist qualities. Her argument falls incredibly short. I'd like to conclude with the fact that it is no secret that talented, famous people have sometimes been the most intolerable kind to live with. Do a search on Tolstoy, Van Gogh and even Rilke and you'll see what I mean (2 of which were writers like Alice Walker). Couldn't an explanation for her mother's behavior have something to do with the trend that talented, famous people in general just don't fit conventional societal molds? That doesn't necessarily mean that you can denounce an ideology that they hold as the entire reason for their shortcomings. Sheesh!

Okay, I finally got the chance to read it and, my god, where to begin? It sounds to me like she never really gave her mother a chance, and is totally disappointed that her mother isn't a traditional mother without realizing that a woman doesn't have to do all of the traditional things to actually love and raise her child. I understand the disappointment, since I have the same kind of issue with my father, but even then I have to acknowledge that while my father paid little attention to me (and when he did pay attention, did ridiculous things), he also managed to pawn me off on a bunch of wonderful people. Obviously I don't know what the people who actually took care of Rebecca Walker were like, but I do wonder if she's so busy looking at what she didn't have that she forgets to look at what she did. And it sounds to me like Rebecca should seriously consider the prevailing ideology about motherhood and perhaps talk to some of us women who really really DON'T want to be mothers (yet still manage to be "maternal").

It also sounds like BOTH of their efforts to talk to each other about their own perspectives have become completely garbled somehow. I know two sisters who are like this, who try to get along but just can't no matter what they do. For instance, one will try to give the other advice because that's how she shows love to people, but the other only seems to be able to see it as the first sister being authoritarian and judgmental. Neither one is wrong in how they act or perceive; they just understand everything from too different a viewpoint.

My mother was exactly like Rebecca Walker describes hers. But my mother was a rabid anti-feminist, blaming her woes on feminism. I question Rebecca Walker's "leadership" in the so-called "third wave" with this dispicable and hateful article. I question her ethics and values. I question her maturity. Rebecca, what do you want from your mother? What if, in fact, motherhood was terrible for her, and your experience is just different? You accuse her of not letting things lie and giving you your space - you are doing the same thing with this public inflammation of your hurt and resentment.

My mother was exactly like Rebecca Walker describes hers. But my mother was a rabid anti-feminist, blaming her woes on feminism. I question Rebecca Walker's "leadership" in the so-called "third wave" with this dispicable and hateful article. I question her ethics and values. I question her maturity. Rebecca, what do you want from your mother? What if, in fact, motherhood was terrible for her, and your experience is just different? You accuse her of not letting things lie and giving you your space - you are doing the same thing with this public inflammation of your hurt and resentment.

I seem to remember way back in my 2nd wave days, having some discussions about the fraught & problematic nature of mother-daughter relationships. It seemed like many feminists had difficult relationships with their mothers. I found this article, which seems relevant, and may have been one I was referred to back in the late 70s.

'The Conflict between Nurturance and Autonomy in Mother-Daughter Relationships and within Feminism' by Jane Flax
'Feminist Studies', Vol. 4, No. 2, Toward a Feminist Theory of Motherhood (Jun., 1978), pp. 171-189

I have access to this article. It begins with a couple of quotes:

For we think back through our mothers if we are women (Virginia Woolf: Room of One’s Own)

“My mother’s worst fantasy is that she will end up like her mother. My worst fantasy is that I will end up like my mother, and I know that as soon as I have that fantasy. I am already trapped. (therapy patient aged 20)”

“What women want is an experience of both nurturance and autonomy within an intimate relationship. What makes this wish so strong and, for many women, so unattainable, is that psychological development occurs within the patriarchal family – in which the mother is the primary nurturer and the father is a symbol of authority. The psychological difficulties that this arrangement causes are reinforced and compounded in later life by the inability of many men to be nurturers, an inability created as a result of patriarchal family structure, and by homophobia, which makes intimacy between women suspect. Women’s need for nurturance is not neurotic, but it can lead to self-defeating behavior under certain conditions that will be discussed.”

This seems to be central to Rebecca Walker’s issues with her mother. Is she not criticising her mother for being too autonomous and not nurturing enough? Flax goes on to develop a psychoanalytic argument, based on 3 years’ experience as a psychoanalytic therapist, feminist experiences, and research into psychoanalysis and political theory. The following is one of her concluding paragraphs.

“We once again encounter that paradox within female development: that an overidentification with the mother can mask a deep rage toward her and by extension all women – a rage that is expressed by extreme hostility to anyone who acts upon one’s wishes to escape the female condition. The hostility toward women results in an alliance with and a subordination to patriarchal authority itself…….[a bit of an attack on the Catholic Church here]… Women become the instruments of their own oppression, just as mothers unconsciously deny or repress their daughters’ moves toward autonomy. “Love” is put into the service of oppression and the perpetuation of powerlessness. The life-giver becomes the life-denier.
The women’s liberation movement is facing an awesome task. The split between nurturance and autonomy is carried by all of us as one of those archaic residues within the unconscious.”

I read this article when it first came out, probably via a Feministe link. I consider it disrespectful and hurtful to Walker's mother. I couldn't do that to my mother, even anonymously. That said, I agree with Nathan and Lucy above. What does this have to do with feminism, is the elder Ms. Walker apparently taught, or the younger Ms. Walker apparently learned, that her experience growing up, is what feminism was about: "my mum taught me that children enslave women. I grew up believing that children are millstones around your neck, and the idea that motherhood can make you blissfully happy is a complete fairytale." Someone was mistaken (What about having a nurturing partner or extended family? What about daycare?). But unless the elder Ms. Walker would care to publicly comment, it is distasteful to simply invalidate her daughter's experience which is apparently what I am seeing here. She is clearly hurting about *something*. So much so, that she would "shock" her readers by coming out with her account, and drive her mother even further away. It certainly is sad.

I don't believe for one minute that Rebecca Walker was forced to walk to preschool by herself at the age of one. That is flat-out ridiculous, and I'm stunned that she expects anyone to believe this.

I also am very glad that she doesn't have a daughter. The sheer level of hatred toward her mother makes me question whether she could successfully raise a female child, especially if the daughter comes to resemble Alice Walker in any way.

I feel very sorry for her.

Please do not post articles from the Daily Mail (UK) without at least some disclaimer about their veracity. The Daily Mail is known to be somewhat patriarchal, occasionally misogynistic, and very much anti-feminist.
Occasionally they post interesting things, but recently they've been in trouble for using Michel Odent's byline for a story which did not accurately represent his views of men, women or childbirth.

Apart from that, her pain is palapable, and whoever compared the experiences of a feminist daughter with that of the daughter of a religious person was right on the money.

"I don't believe for one minute that Rebecca Walker was forced to walk to preschool by herself at the age of one. That is flat-out ridiculous, and I'm stunned that she expects anyone to believe this."

Neglect is a very real thing. Whether you believe it happend to Rebecca Walker or not there are children out their forced to fend for themselves at that early an age.

"Why isn't this acknowledged in Rebecca's vicious take down of her own mother?"

I'm guessing if Rebecca Walker is really in that much pain and sees herself as a neglected child, she's too busy healing to see her mother's side of the story.

Ideally, with doing her own work, that ability to see the other side will come. But it sounds like she's just not there yet. And it's entirely possible that when she gets there, to her it will still look the same.

This shit is tough for anyone, and while I think that it would have made more sense to go through it privately rather than through a public expose, maybe she thought she was doing third wave women a favor by exposing what she saw to be the dark underbelly of the movement. I say as long as it helps her heal, that's what's most important.

"Why isn't this acknowledged in Rebecca's vicious take down of her own mother?"

I'm guessing if Rebecca Walker is really in that much pain and sees herself as a neglected child, she's too busy healing to see her mother's side of the story.

Ideally, with doing her own work, that ability to see the other side will come. But it sounds like she's just not there yet. And it's entirely possible that when she gets there, to her it will still look the same.

This shit is tough for anyone, and while I think that it would have made more sense to go through it privately rather than through a public expose, maybe she thought she was doing third wave women a favor by exposing what she saw to be the dark underbelly of the movement. I say as long as it helps her heal, that's what's most important.

Rebecca Walker says that "Feminism has betrayed an entire generation of women into childlessness. It is devastating."

As a still relatively young woman who has just received the devastating news that I will never be able to carry a pregnancy to term, I am ever-more grateful for feminism. Feminism means that I am not worthless as a woman because I'm infertile. It also means that I can use my voice and my personal power to try to make the world better for other women and their children.

Rebecca Walker says that "Feminism has betrayed an entire generation of women into childlessness. It is devastating."

As a still relatively young woman who has just received the devastating news that I will never be able to carry a pregnancy to term, I am ever-more grateful for feminism. Feminism means that I am not worthless as a woman because I'm infertile. It also means that I can use my voice and my personal power to try to make the world better for other women and their children.

Rebecca Walker says that "Feminism has betrayed an entire generation of women into childlessness. It is devastating."

As a still relatively young woman who has just received the devastating news that I will never be able to carry a pregnancy to term, I am ever-more grateful for feminism. Feminism means that I am not worthless as a woman because I'm infertile. It also means that I can use my voice and my personal power to try to make the world better for other women and their children.

Rebecca Walker wouldn't have shit to write about if her mother wasn't Alice Walker and if feminist-bashing weren't such a perennial favorite. What's so complex? She's another Katie Roiphe. She wants her mother's fame and importance and she's willing to sell her out to get it.

I don't have any sympathy for her at all. She can join the pantheon of anti feminists if she wants but blaming it on her mom while trying to capitalize on her mother's fame is what gives it away.

I'm a 35-year-old mother of a 20-month-old son, and my second is due in January. I've been working all along since my son was born (after a three month maternity leave), but I'm seriously considering staying home for a few years after #2 is born.

Call me idealistic, but to me, being able to make these choices - delaying motherhood until I found the right partner and we were both ready, going back to work after my first was born, having the option to stay home with my kids once the second is born - is what feminism is all about.

This thread ties in nicely with the post a few days back about the job of being a stay at home mother (or father).

It is obvious that there are very deep hurts on Rebecca's part, and ginmar, it is not our part to pass judgment on her.

Also, I think in many ways, she is justified in her claims about certain radical feminists. They have devalued the role of motherhood. Especially now, in a day and age when it is more important than ever to actually treat your fellow human beings as sisters and brothers, having nurturing and loving parents is so important.

I'm a 35-year-old mother of a 20-month-old son, and my second is due in January. I've been working all along since my son was born (after a three month maternity leave), but I'm seriously considering staying home for a few years after #2 is born.

Call me idealistic, but to me, being able to make these choices - delaying motherhood until I found the right partner and we were both ready, going back to work after my first was born, having the option to stay home with my kids once the second is born - is what feminism is all about.

I know it's totally tacky to link to oneself, but I wrote about this article a little while ago:
http://katsbitchcraft.blogspot.com/2008/05/good-god-its-been-too-long.html

Yes, I think that R. Walker feels a lot of pain but I don't think that international publications are the places to deal with that.

Also, I read this article on the British "Daily Mail" site, and the DM is known to be conservative. It's possible that some statements were inflated or misquoted to follow their editorial bent....who knows.

Either way, I really don't think that an entire movement should be painted with the same brush as her mother.

Rebecca Walker wouldn't have shit to write about if her mother wasn't Alice Walker and if feminist-bashing weren't such a perennial favorite. What's so complex? She's another Katie Roiphe. She wants her mother's fame and importance and she's willing to sell her out to get it.

I don't have any sympathy for her at all. She can join the pantheon of anti feminists if she wants but blaming it on her mom while trying to capitalize on her mother's fame is what gives it away.

The healthiest and most respectable way to deal with your tumultuous relationship with your mother is to publish a personal attack on her (and all feminists) in the Daily fucking Mail.

What a brat. If it weren't for her mother, Rebecca wouldn't have a career. She's used her mother's fame (and last name) to make a name for herself as an immature, narcissistic, petty "writer."

Does she truly think Alice would have been Mother of the Year had it not been for the evil influence of feminism? The stuff she says is patently ridiculous.
"Feminism has betrayed an entire generation of women into childlessness."
Huh? An entire generation of women is childless? That's pretty amazing.

In another essay (or maybe it was a book), she claims it's impossible to love an adopted child as much as a biological one. Yeah. She helped raise her ex-girlfriend's son, btw. Maybe in a couple decade's he'll publish a scathing article about the ways in which Rebecca ruined HIS life.

She blames her mother's feminism for making her a bad mom, and she's also bitter that her mom made her bi-racial. Daddy gets off scott-free, however. Shouldn't he have saved her from such an awful existance with mom? Nawwww, dads aren't held to the same standards.

I can't even express how much I hate this woman.

So Rebecca Walker alleges that her talented, famous mother was basically a narcissist and therefore a bad mother. What does that have to do with feminism?

Could it be that many narcissistic women have used feminism as an excuse and rationale for their pathological self absorption and so it is sometimes difficult to separate the feminism from the narcissism when dealing with such people? Rebecca was neglected and mistreated and when she asked her mother why, Alice replied, Feminism and you're surprised that Rebecca equates the two? This is made worse by the second wave propensity to celebrate destructive narcissism and denigrate more moderate views.

Younger feminists are trying to avoid recreating our mistakes and I think that although it's very hard to read their criticism it is important to the future of feminism that we admit our short comings. To cling to the position that we did nothing wrong or that anything we did was justified makes us sound a great deal like the hypocrites and narcissists we are made out to be by younger women. I also think that women like Rebecca need to look around at all of the women her age who had great feminists mothers and realize that somewhere between the two extremes there is a middle path that doesn't deny women agency and full participation in life but also does celebrate when that focus to become malignant and destructive...especially to the girls and young women that it's supposed to liberate.

Rebecca Walker wouldn't have shit to write about if her mother wasn't Alice Walker and if feminist-bashing weren't such a perennial favorite. What's so complex? She's another Katie Roiphe. She wants her mother's fame and importance and she's willing to sell her out to get it.

I don't have any sympathy for her at all. She can join the pantheon of anti feminists if she wants but blaming it on her mom while trying to capitalize on her mother's fame is what gives it away.

I would challenge Rebecca to explain how a lack of feminism would have made her mom a better mother. In fact, without feminism, Rebecca's situation probably would have been worse. She probably would have had neglected siblings to commiserate with, and if the divorce had not happened, she would not have experienced the "good" mothering from her step-mother.

I can relate to some degree with what Rebecca says about her mom. For me, it was nowhere near that level of neglect, but my mom was far from being a "Mrs. Weasley" type. But then I look at HER mom who stayed home with six kids. She was hardly mother of the year, and even with her children grown she's a pretty unhappy person. She (unconsciously) tries to undermine her children's acheivements and happiness, perhaps because she was unable to pursue her own dreams. So just buying into the motherhood ideal didn't really solve any problems. It created worse ones.

Even though my mom was not as overtly nurturing as I would have liked, instead of condemning feminism, I am thankful for it. I'd MUCH rather have her as a mother than someone like my grandmother.

Yeah, K, feminism is all about narcisism. Of course a social movement devoted to equality is selfish.

Rebecca isn't an extremist: she's an anti feminist, not part of the movement at all.

I can certainly relate to the lingering pain and resentment Rebecca feels over the traumatic experiences of her childhood. I don't think anyone who hasn't experienced it can understand what it feels like to grow up feeling like a burden on your own mother, and to be reminded of it until you internalize it in ways you yourself don't necessarily understand.

That said, I think it is wildly unfair to blame feminism, and to mis-classify an entire movement by the old canard of "man and baby hating monsters." Isn't that what the right wing misogynists and their apologists are for?

It's offensive and disrespectful not just to Alice and her generation, but to mine (I'm in my early 30s) as well. What annoys me the most is that Rebecca is obviously smart enough and experienced enough to know how much more complicated the issue is than that. She didn't seem to have a problem with her mother's choices when she herself was reaping the benefits of being Alice Walker's daughter, which in my eyes makes her a hypocrite and an ingrate.

Rebecca has a right to her rage and I suppose if she feels the need to take down Alice that's her right too, I just wish she wouldn't take the rest of us down with her.

BTW, she has a response to the Salon piece, taking them to task for excerpting a bad article from the Daily Mail (the UK equivalent of the NY Daily News, if I'm not mistaken), which itself improperly summarized her original interview.

So it's within the realm of possibility that we could be casting aspersions and horribly generalizing for nothing.

I think some of the harsh responses to her article may be due to a high level of hero worship. It sounds like she had a tough life filled with mixed messages. I think it is important to keep in mind that it was probably a very different experience for her living and growing up with the leaders of the feminist movement, than those of us studying them and feeling the effects of their efforts second and third hand.

I have read on Feministing many times how abuse is wrong, mental as well as physical. I can only imagine what she went through growing up in an environment so politically charged. Kids, particularly young kids, don’t know or care about politics. They care about mom, then a far distant second dad and others. Given the reaction feministing has when a partner is mentally abusive for destroying a women’s self esteem, I am surprised at the lack of compassion here. For example, imagine if when you are so young and vulnerable you knew that your mom felt you were a burden, and a low priority. This would make the abuse of a partner pale because as an adult you have choices and abilities. As a child you are totally and completely vulnerable and dependent on your parents. Then imaging when you hit that tween stage in life and you are trying to build your identity and self confidence, what it would be like if your mom published a poem calling you a calamity (even if that is not the reality but only your perception of reality).

I think it is fair to say (and expect) that these experiences have had a fairly strong impact on her perception and view of life and feminism. This in turn has lent itself to her agenda. She is not hiding it. This should certainly not be a problem from a feminist perspective; after all she is following in the steps and using the tools learned from the women she saw growing up - using writing and public engagement to get across her message on what she feels is critical for women to think about.

Having recently embarked on the parenthood journey, I am curious if the heart of the issue is that both “sides” of this argument need to be honest and a bit more upfront. Having children is a massive commitment that will, regardless of available support, impact your life and force choices, decisions and compromises. You need to be clear that regardless of your choice it is the right one for you because once you have chosen a path there are no going back. But if you are not certain, my personal view is that if you should skip children because then if you choose wrong and you decide at 40+ that life without children was a mistake only you pay the price.

@ norbizness: Rebecca Walker responded publicly to Chesler's piece in Salon, but not, as far as I can find, to the Daily Mail piece in the first place. Which seems odd to me, that she wouldn't post something disavowing it, but would go to the trouble to get angry at Chesler for citing it.

Nobody is showing "lack of compassion," and many many many people on Feministing had similar childhoods with many different types of women as mothers which led them to vastly different conclusions.

I, for one, was raised by a liberal feminist. She paid other people to take care of me while she worked a job that realistically, was incompatible with having kids to the point where my first language was that of my babysitters and not my family or the country that I lived in. My sister was able to get away with bullying and physically assaulting me for many years because we had no supervision whatsoever. I was molested by a repairman she left alone in the house with me and almost died in a faulty car she bought for me to placate me as a teenager rather than speak to me but neglected to tell me she'd been too busy to actually check up on.

Fortunately for me, I realized that the problem was not my mother's feminism, but her political liberalism. Particularly, her mainstream rich-person politics meant she was comfortable with the notion of feminism as a vehicle for the career advancement of rich white women, with poor brown women being paid poverty wages to stay home and care for the kids, if anybody was at all. Her worship of capitalist systems led her to believe that women could achieve liberation by climbing the same hierarchies that previously only destroyed men. Her efforts to get to the top of the ladder in her field made her suffer from the same emotional distance from her family as a man who is encouraged to view himself primarily as a provider rather than a nurturer, that is to say a source of cash rather than a source of hugs.

Becoming a radical feminist with a healthy critical stance towards capitalism and the claims of liberals that women will achieve equality with men by being equally represented in the structures that men have built to foster masculine hyper-competitiveness was an important step in healing for me. As was learning that if you don't want kids, you don't fucking have kids. As was learning that a culture where even "feminists" rail at length about how important family should be to all women everywhere much more effectively fosters child neglect (by encouraging women who don't want kids to have them anyway) than actual feminist introspection.

Rebecca is significantly older than I am now, and I have absolutely no sympathy for her if she hasn't fucking figured it out yet.

@ norbizness: Rebecca Walker responded publicly to Chesler's piece in Salon, but not, as far as I can find, to the Daily Mail piece in the first place. Which seems odd to me, that she wouldn't post something disavowing it, but would go to the trouble to get angry at Chesler for citing it. (sorry if this posts twice: technical difficulties)

norbiz-
Thanks for posting that link. When I read the DM article I was shocked at how clunky and inarticulate it was in many places; even how gushingly confessional it was. Suspicious when compared with her other work, and even with the verbiage of the Salon article, which abuses neither the adverb or the word "very," like the DM piece. Thankfully. So I'll reserve my judgments and personal comparisons until I find out how inaccurate the DM piece was.

"Also, I think in many ways, she is justified in her claims about certain radical feminists. They have devalued the role of motherhood"

I know some feminist have taken a "hard line" on motherhood, but I do not believe that feminism has had a major part in devaluing the role of motherhood. And here is why.

For the most part, society values motherhood as redemptive act.

To break it down: women by default have lower value for simply being born female; and motherhood is the means by which a woman can redeem
herself thereby increasing her worth as a human being.

This concept is further supported by the fact that many traditional cultures absolutely tie a female's value to being a mother or her potential to be a mother and to very little else.

Feminism is right to strip away the mythology and the mysticism surrounding motherhood.

If that turns some women away from motherhood, then perhaps we need to be examining greater society and not shooting the messenger.

Ms. Walker is entitled to her feelings but I'd hope that people don't lose sight on the bigger picture.

My feminist mother -- now approaching 70 -- read RW's piece. She's not a huge fan of AW, but having spent 35 years teaching English to high school kids from pretty poor backgrounds, her reaction to the essay was simply, "Oh get over it! Does this woman really think it's all about her?"

If she wanted to write a "Mommy Dearest" piece, fine. I'd read that. If she wanted to write a piece lamenting the way second wave feminism marginalized motherhood, fine.

But when a David Brooks column extrapolates an anecdote into a cultural indictment, we all laugh at him. I think there's a case for responding to this with mockery also.

Anyone got a "no wire hangers" joke handy?

Yeah, K, feminism is all about narcisism.

That's not what I said. I said,

"Could it be that many narcissistic women have used feminism as an excuse and rationale for their pathological self absorption and so it is sometimes difficult to separate the feminism from the narcissism when dealing with such people?"

They are two different things. Try reading for comprehension.

Of course a social movement devoted to equality is selfish.

Where did I say that? Sounds like a typical red herring.

norbiz-
Thanks for posting that link. When I read the DM article I was shocked at how clunky and inarticulate it was in many places; even how gushingly confessional it was. Suspicious when compared with her other work, and even with the verbiage of the Salon article, which abuses neither the adverb or the word "very," like the DM piece. Thankfully. So I'll reserve my judgments and personal comparisons until I find out how inaccurate the DM piece was.

I loathe the Ms. R. Walkers of the world - the overfed children of privilege whose unchecked id-ridden personalities waste perfectly good column space.

When will Ms. R. Walker understand that her feelings of resentment are common to us all? Dear god, when?

Just about every person can spin a yarn about how their parents "took umbrage" at their actions and choices. She bellyaches on and on “As the child of divorced parents,” unaware that nearly 50% of Americans also claim that identify.

Becoming pregnant at 14 (or in R. Walker’s synthetic Victorian language “I fell pregnant at 14”) isn’t a new thing. Unless one can “make it new” by telling their story with their own impressive approach, ending contact with one’s mother is not an attention-grabbing scenario either. **Yawn**

So I’m left trying to decide which is worse – Ms. R. Walker’s artificial shoddy writing, or her conceited assumption that feminism is to blame for her pathetic state.

So it goes.

Yeah, K, try writing for intelligence. Of all the things that feminism is, that you could have asked, you picked narcissam.

The only narcissist here is Rebecca Walker.

Yeah, K, try writing for intelligence. Of all the things that feminism is, that you could have asked, you picked narcissam.

The only narcissist here is Rebecca Walker.

I'm horrified at people's responses this. How can some of you completely discredit what she is saying? So people who experience abuse and they speak about it are narcissists? Really?

Lucretia I don't think anyone meant to imply that Rebecca is a narcissist for speaking out about her abuse, but because she presumes to speak for her entire generation by making a sweeping indictment of feminism based on her own experiences.

Voltairine - you are brilliant! Amen.

Or, I guess we could continue to castigate the author based on the injudicious edits of a Rupert Murdoch paper.

Norbiz, I don't think too many people have spotted your link to R. Walker's response to this article that appears to be fabricated. I was slightly confused by R. Walker's reaction. I would be furious if someone put my name on something I didn't write.

@oxygengrrl: I too found it odd that she would respond to the salon citing of the piece and not the piece itself.

But in her responce she says, "the fact is the piece to which she refers is an inaccurate tabloidization of an interview I gave. No matter how much she would like to see the piece as factual and however sensational the article may appear, my father is not a descendant of Holocaust survivors, I never used the word fanatical to describe my mother's views, and so on."

It would be helpful if Rebecca Walker came out and dismissed the original story that we are all discussing here if it really is "an inaccurate tabloidization of an interview [she] gave."

Ditto SarahMC.

Pardon me while I roll my eyes at Ms. Walker's tantrum.

@oxygengrrl: I too found it odd that she would respond to the salon citing of the piece and not the piece itself.

But in her responce she says, "the fact is the piece to which she refers is an inaccurate tabloidization of an interview I gave. No matter how much she would like to see the piece as factual and however sensational the article may appear, my father is not a descendant of Holocaust survivors, I never used the word fanatical to describe my mother's views, and so on."

It would be helpful if Rebecca Walker came out and dismissed the original story that we are all discussing here if it really is "an inaccurate tabloidization of an interview [she] gave."