This past week it was really warm in San Francisco where I live. As a result people were wearing less clothes, which is unusual in a city as windy and foggy as SF. I love warm weather, but I have to say for some reason it brings out a new kind of creepy that you forget about when you are bundled up. I forgot that I can't wear a dress, skirt, tube top or anything else the reveals flesh without having people honk their horns, whistle, yell at me or get followed. I have for most of my life learned to ignore this just to get about my day and tell myself it is not their fault, but the fault of this over pornified culture that teaches men that women's bodies are public property, and they are just a product of that culture, right? But that doesn't really make me feel much better about the fact that I have to wear a jacket even if I am sweating and sometimes I just wish I was invisible because I don't want to be looked at.
That is my experience, perhaps other women have a different one, but with the exception of some people I have talked to, I think catcalling is an uncomfortable feeling for most women. CNN asks if catcalling is creepy or a compliment.
According to the study in this report 98% of women report being harassed on a daily basis.
When Holly Kearl was researching her master's thesis on street harassment last winter, she was pleasantly surprised that lewd remarks were few and far between. Then spring rolled around. As part of her research, Kearl conducted an anonymous, informal e-mail survey of 225 women on the subject. She found that 98 percent of respondents experienced some form of street harassment at least a few times, and about 30 percent reported being harassed on a regular basis."For me, anyone who interrupts my personal space to objectify me or make me feel uncomfortable or threatened is harassing me," she says.
But she found that some women did find it to be a compliment.
On the other hand, some women appreciate the attention in certain cases, like Jessica, a 31-year-old health-care educator in Los Angeles who declined to use her last name to protect her privacy."Yeah, it's objectifying and all, but you know, if I walked down the street and didn't have men looking me up and down and catcalling, I'd think, 'Boy, I must really be getting old and dumpy,' " she said.
She's gotten catcalls just walking her parents' dog in baggy sweats. "I thought it was hysterical, like, 'Boy, doesn't take much to impress you, does it?' "
I feel like only in a culture where women are taught that the way they look is their main worth, would anyone call heckling from a random dude you don't know on the street, a compliment. But again, that is just my opinion, I am not trying to be a killjoy for women that enjoy it. I understand that it is complex and I often have to negotiate my feelings of being complimented (or feeling like yeah I do look nice today) by it with my feelings of being scared, freaked out or threatened. It is an awkward position to be in.
Ultimately, the report concludes that men don't know how their behavior is perceived
According to existing studies and her own findings, Kearl says, some men are simply ignorant about how their behavior is perceived. Kearl, who completed her thesis, "Direct Action, Education, Consciousness-Raising, Activism and the Internet: Methods for Combating Street Harassment," last year, thinks posting on Web sites like HollaBackNYC is preferable to resorting to anger and violence."A lot of men have no idea that women don't like being talked to in this way," she said. "It never crosses their mind, and yelling doesn't educate them. If you yell, they often don't understand why you are upset and so they take it personally."
Often, Kearl says, an assertive, clear response can elicit a kinder reaction than one expects.
"A lot of the time, I find guys will just say, 'Oh, OK, I didn't realize it made you feel that way. Thanks.' ".
In my experience, it actually works the opposite way. If you respond, you get even more because they are getting a reaction out of you. I think perhaps in some cases men don't realize how their behavior is perceived, but generally I do think it is a power thing. It is men asserting power in your personal space in a threating manner that causes you to feel uncomfortable. I guess it is just bad manners.
Does this mean that I give the finger to every guy that comes up to me on the street or in a bar or wherever? No. There is a time and a place, but if you are just trying to get to work, being yelled at, whistled at or harassed is at best annoying and sometimes down right scary. I shouldn't have to know that if I am dressed a certain way on a certain day, I have to deal with people yelling shit at me.
Other thoughts?
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Definitely understand where you're coming from on the feeling invisible part. I live in a pretty car-heavy area, so this doesn't happen to me that much, but when it does the tone is really what determines whether or not I get creeped out. Actually, I prefer being a little bit overweight, because it cuts down on this kind of nonsense.
What I really do not understand is why guys do it in the first place. What do they think they're accomplishing?
Exactly. The fact that some women WORRY when they're NOT catcalled (that they're not attractive) is indicative of how patriarchal society is.
I can't help but be annoyed with those women who do call it a compliment; that just feeds into catcallers' LIE that "it's just a compliment!" and encourages them to continue doing it because, hey, SOME women like it!
And I don't for a minute buy that guys are just hopelessly clueless about how catcalling is perceived. The whole point of catcalling women is to exert dominance over women in public spaces. It's practically a male-bonding ritual.
When I was in high school, I took catcalling as a compliment (I had bad luck with boys, and I took the attention to mean that at least somebody thought I was attractive). But as I grew older, I realized that it was demeaning and disgusting, and now that I live in NYC, I have to do my best on an almost-daily basis to ignore the offending men.
While the people doing the catcalling may not think it's creepy, plenty of the rest of us do, and we as men need to put people in their place more often- that they've never considered that catcalling isn't viewed favourably is because other men let them get away with it, or even join in. Ew.
And I agree that you shouldn't feel obliged to reply in any way to someone who harasses you- in some contexts (like an environment dominated by women, or where the man catcalling has very few people he can rely on to take his side) it might get you a positive response, but Kearl seems to be missing the point- it's not her responsibility to deal with their behaviour, nor is it the responsibility of any other woman who is harassed.
I am similarly baffled like Stanna-- what does catcalling achieve as far as the male is concerned? A catcall can completely jar you and make an open, bright public place suddenly seem threatening or at the very least make you highly self conscious and uncomfortable. I struggle with the urge to dress down to avoid harassment (though often, I think, the catcalls have nothing to do with what I'm wearing) and feeling like other people's actions shouldn't restrict or dictate my own. And do men really not see how it's perceived? If so, I suspect it's only because most men don't ever have to walk around with their sixth sense on screening for creeps and potential threats. In that sense, they may not be able to empathize with that insecurity.
This reminds me of a Flight of the Conchords episode..."Oh my God, she's so hot. She's so flippin' hot. She's like a curry. I wanna tell her how hot she is but she'll think I'm being sexist. She's so hot she's making me sexist........bitch."
Seriously though, we shouldn't pretend that when we're walking down the street, we don't check other people out (men or women). The problem is, some men don't come with a filter, and they feel compelled to voice every dirty thought that comes into their head.
Also, if a women whistled at me while I was walking down the street, I'd feel pretty good about it.
I absolutely hate catcalls of any kind - from the relatively innoccuous whistle to the much more explicit rants some men have been know to go on. Some are easier to ignore than others, but all of them make me feel creeped out in some way.
Chefmatt - being offended/creeped out/whatever at catcalls has nothing to do with pretending we don't check out other people. It has EVERYTHING to do with that filter - and even then there are creepy and silent ways to check people out (think guy who stares down my blouse vs someone who gives me a once over before moving on with his day. Sometimes, yes, my cleavage is out there for the world to see - I'm not going to be pissed if you glance at it. It's the people who openly stare, with or without commentary, that make me want to hit someone)
I think dudes should try something more subtle.
Chefmatt, I don't know about you, but I've never seen someone attractive walking down the street and decided to follow them for several blocks, making graphic sexual suggestions the entire time. And yet that's happened to me more times than I can count, the most recent being just last week. Nor do I growl or make other animalistic noises at people I think are attractive, or call them names, or get angry and start threatening them if they ignore me when I give them "just a compliment". But these are all things that men do to me on a regular basis.
But I guess I'm just "too uptight" because I don't want to be followed around and called names on a daily basis.
I think there is a big difference between a genuine compliment, and a cat call.
You can take the stance that a comment about someone's appearance-good or bad- is uncalled for. I don't necessarily agree.
I do understand the mixed feelings involved, and I don't think all comments are necessarily negative.
We all want to feel attractive. It feels good to receive compliments from people who love us (or people who don't know us). Most of the time, you can tell the difference between lewd comments and genuine ones (hint: genuine ones aren't yelled out of cars and don't involve the term "bitch" or "hit that")
I would say I am average-looking and the last time I was really uncomfortable (which became FURIOUS and a little scared) was when a guy in the passenger side looked at me in the most disgusting, wanting to consume sort of way. There was no pleasantness, no compliment. It was sheer disgusting objectification. His mouth was open and he was staring at me. I hate to use the term (especially being vegan), but I really have to compare it with meat.
When I let him know that that wasn't cool, he got SO MAD and then called me a bitch and all that. Since it was light out and in a public space, I let him have it. I called him a misogynist piece of shit. I also told him he was disgusting. He told me to "suck his dick".
It was really unpleasant.
Anyway, I got side-tracked.
I think that it is flat out wrong to assume that because Jessica feels that lack of attention makes her wonder if she's "old and dumpy" equates to her feeling that her entire self-worth is determined by male attention. Rather she feels, like most people regardless of gender, that lack of attention by the gender one is attracted to, may be a sign of non-attractiveness. And no one wants to feel unattractive and anyone who says otherwise is a liar.
That said, I've never been one to cat call because I thought it was rude and unmanly. Real men can actually respectfully approach a woman AND take "no" for an answer.
Also, as a man who regularly runs on the streets in form fitting clothing I have been the object of cat calls by women. Doesn't bother me in the least bit because, I suppose I am not in fear of physical assault by any of them. Once though I was followed by a man for a few blocks. That was not cute and I can definitely see how such behavior makes someone uncomfortable.
chefmatt, stop with the bogus "I'd love it if women catcalled me" meme. How about if a stranger 6 inches taller than you and 40 pounds heavier came up to you out of the blue and started following you, all the while describing your genitals in lewd detail? And then when you ignored them, they got in your face and started yelling at you to "lighten up and smile for me, bitch!" Would that be welcome to you? THAT is the dynamic of catcalling for women, and you can't compare it to some "feisty" woman whistling at a guy.
chefmatt, stop with the bogus "I'd love it if women catcalled me" meme. How about if a stranger 6 inches taller than you and 40 pounds heavier came up to you out of the blue and started following you, all the while describing your genitals in lewd detail? And then when you ignored them, they got in your face and started yelling at you to "lighten up and smile for me, bitch!" Would that be welcome to you? THAT is the dynamic of catcalling for women, and you can't compare it to some "feisty" woman whistling at a guy.
By the way, check out this Ask Metafilter thread from last year at about this time - http://ask.metafilter.com/60405/Dont-tell-me-to-take-it-as-a-compliment
The whole discussion is interesting.
@chefmatt:
No. Men are not compelled to voice anything. Men are socialized, mostly by other men, to voice whatever comes to mind. 'cause last I checked I was male and last I checked I had control over my mouth.
There's a contradiction in this post. You say "98% of women report being harassed on a daily basis" but then the actual figures turn out to be that "98 percent of respondents experienced some form of street harassment at least a few times, and about 30 percent reported being harassed on a regular basis."
The numbers are still fairly shocking, but there's a big difference there.
I think something people forget when they say that catcalling is a compliment or when men say that they wouldn't mind being catcalled by a woman is that these people aren't attractive in any sense of the word. It's one thing to have your attractiveness validated by someone you might be friends with in another context (in an ideal world, we wouldn't need it validated at all, but...) but when the "compliment" is coming from men 40 years older than me who appear to live at bus stops, I start to feel not only unsafe, but like I'm only attractive to men 40 years older than me who live at bus stops, which is kind of the opposite of a compliment.
Yeah, see. There's a big difference between approaching someone in a non-hostile, non-threatening way and telling them they look nice and hurling a lude "compliment" out the window as you drive past. There's a sense of common courtesy that is sorely lacking in the world (or maybe just our country?) these days.
One of the many benefits of getting older is that one day you magically become invisible to these creeps. You can walk around unmolested, minding your own damn business and none of them even sees you. It's a truly liberating experience.
I think something people forget when they say that catcalling is a compliment or when men say that they wouldn't mind being catcalled by a woman is that these people aren't attractive in any sense of the word. It's one thing to have your attractiveness validated by someone you might be friends with in another context (in an ideal world, we wouldn't need it validated at all, but...) but when the "compliment" is coming from men 40 years older than me who appear to live at bus stops, I start to feel not only unsafe, but like I'm only attractive to men 40 years older than me who live at bus stops, which is kind of the opposite of a compliment.
Just for clarity: the summary of the study says 98% of the women in the study reported being harassed daily.
What the study actually says is that 98% of women report having been harassed "at least a few times, and about 30 percent reported being harassed on a regular basis."
It's creepy and rude. I expect most men who do it know it is rude and do it as a way to make them feel superior to the women. It puts the women in the place those men want them: objectified and powerless. I like this from the article:
BTW, pet peeve of mine is false characterizations of studies. Samhita's post said, "According to the study in this report 98% of women report being harassed on a daily basis." (emphasis mine)
No, it wasn't a study it was an informal survey. No, the report did not say daily.
This is a topic I've found really interesting since I've started reading Feministing, and as a Psychologist one I'm tempted to research. A few random observations (which I hope to build upon):
There are a couple of theories (off the top of my head) as to why men do this:
1. The "rational" - 1 out of a 100 women will actually go for this, so it can be a successful, low effort pick up strategy.
2. Self control (or manners)- Perhaps the men who do this merely lack the "filter" that tells them this is (or should be) socially inappropriate.
3. Social dominance - Some men simply enjoy objectifying and intimidating women, it makes them feel powerful.
A few other random observations:
1. It is my sense that this is more common among more immature (college aged or younger) and more low status men (this would tend to support the "filter" theory).
2. I would think it is more common when men are in groups ("packs"), and of course, when drinking (also supporting the "filter" theory).
3. The enjoyment men seem to get from getting a reaction (mentioned in this post) would seem to support the "social dominance" argument. This would also tie in well with the advertising/media trends of showing women being harmed, controlled, and exploited that has often been pointed out on this blog.
Any thoughts? For those of you who are more scholarly, any academic readings you suggest?
It's actually gotten to the point for me where I don't want to wear skirts outside anymore, no matter how much I love them or how great they feel on a hot day, because I know that EVERY SINGLE TIME I wear one near a road I will get catcalled. And these aren't super short skirts either (not that that should make a difference), just the flowy knee-length kind. It's especially distressing because it's most likely to happen while I'm alone, and then it usually comes from a group of guys. Just in case I wasn't getting enough of the predatory vibe already...ugh.
I've never tried talking to a guy who did it to me in the moment about how I feel and I don't suppose that that would go well. However, when I have talked to male friends and family members about how uncomfortable it makes me, I have mostly found them very clueless about that result and surprised that I would feel that way. That is the situation in which most guys will say "Oh, OK, I didn't realize it made you feel that way. Thanks." And I like to think that once I've explained things (like the actual physical fear that most men don't walk around worrying about), and once they know how it effects someone they actually know and care about, then they're more likely to say something when their friends start catcalling and making rude comments.
I despise and am offended by catcalling. If I get it, I usually ignore it and then rant about the policing of women in public space to my friends. It has nothing to do with what women wear, how thick/thin we are, or hair colour - this is about exercising and reinforcing male power in the public sphere by undercutting women's security. And i love people who are aware of how uncool it is - thank you if you don't do it and/or try to stop your friends if they do.
Perhaps this is opening a big can of worms, but I recently encountered a situation where i needed to walk through a group of guys sprawled across the sidewalk ahead of me - they didn't move out of the way and watched me (albeit silently) as i picked my way around them. That's happened a few times to me - and while i don't want to start 'ranking' which was worse (the silent staring vs. open catcalling) i did feel very uncomfortable and suddenly became very aware of what i was wearing, what i could possibly be 'exposing' to their looks, and whether i should be 'on guard' for some attack... yeesh.
A few more thoughts: I could buy that most guys think the honking, whistling kind of catcalling is a compliment. Most of the guys I've talked to who do that kind of thing think they're just "showing appreciation" or some other nonsense. But lewd comments, following you around, staring? I don't get how anyone could be clueless about that.
Also I was thinking about what you said about social dominance, macfrugal, and it reminded me of going on study abroad in London a couple of years ago. My friends and I all noticed that for the first few weeks we were there, when we were all obviously American tourists, we got catcalled every single day, several times a day (I can remember thinking I was safe while inside a major museum and then getting whistled at by a pair of tiny 12-year-old boys). However, as time went on and we acclimated to the point where we didn't look like outsiders anymore, the unwanted attention stopped altogether. We concluded that there must be something about us being 'outsiders' or 'the other' that made them feel it was okay to be rude to us, whereas when we were one of them it was disrespectful. I wonder if it functions the same way locally.
Wait wait wait, I never said I did those things. And who said anything about feisty women?? And I never said I thought it was OKAY to follow women around and harass them! I think it's stupid, and creepy. But obviously, since it is an issue, I think it is safe to say that quite few men out there for whatever reason, DO NOT have control over their mouths. It's fucked up isn't it?
Does nobody watch Flight of the Conchords??
Hey all,
This is holly kearl from the article and I wanted to let anyone interested in my research - CNN mentioned a very brief portion of my 129 page thesis - know that I've got some more detailed info about it online: www.hkearl.com/thesis. The survey I conducted was a small portion of my data. The statistic CNN cites about how many survey-takers reported being harassed was not even the focus of my thesis, but sort of an obligatory question I felt I had to ask. I was more interested in how people deal with street harassment in lieu of realistic legal means, particularly i was interested in how people were using the internet and anti-street harassment websites like streetharassment.org and the HollaBacks.
I read feministing every day - thanks ladies for the good work you do!
macfrugal:
I agree with you in large part, the major exception being this:
(emphasis mine)Take a seat in Bryant Park in NYC or at the sleazy I-banker bars in the Financial District and I think you'll find that its not just the people you describe doing the cat-calling. In fact, I think wealth sometimes empowers men to act this way.
Also, I find "low-status" to be a really demeaning and overbroad term for what I think you're trying to describe. Maybe "different socioeconomic class" or "people with less education" would work better, depending on exactly who it is you're talking about.
I think there's also a cultural element tied up in this, and you don't want to inadvertently generalize people from other cultures (immigrants, particularly those who are in the US to find work and are therefore probably not all that wealthy, etc) as people of "low status."
Oh, OK, I didn't realize it made you feel that way. Thanks.' ".
Yeah, I'm on the side of challenging the cat-callers usually makes it worse. I'm sorry, but I had to laugh at that response. Maybe cat-callers are different in my city, but I'd never expect a guy who just yelled something lewd about my breast to say, "Oh, sorry. I didn't realize it made you feel that way."
"I understand that it is complex and I often have to negotiate my feelings of being complimented (or feeling like yeah I do look nice today) by it with my feelings of being scared, freaked out or threatened. It is an awkward position to be in."
SO TRUE. I have these double feelings all the time. Being someone who was overweight and now is a healthy weight dealing with this is not something I'm used to, and neither is being complimented on my appearance. The worst is the guilt at feeling validated at the get go followed by the fear that something bad might happen to me, and finally the knowledge that this is wrong and I should not feel like the absence of harassment means I'm not attractive.
Also, it always seems to happen more when I am running for exercise (in baggy clothes)... that explains the allure of all female gyms to me!
And from personal experience whenever I try to talk to men in my life (not the men on the street who make comments and catcalls about me) about this issue they always skirt around the subject. Whenever anyone brings up feminism, even in passing, they loudly proclaim how it's not them, and how they feel victimized by it. And maybe they are not the worst offenders, but I have witnessed their behavior on many occasions.
I don't know how it all started, but one quarter my 2 dorm mates and I tried some catcall experimentation. The results were fascinating. All in all we found that there was nothing objective about "Creepy". We tried whistling, honking, winking, and the thumbs up among other things. We also tried it dressed different ways as well as solo and in a group. It taught us a whole hell of a lot.
While I can see how a woman could find catcalling to be both complimentary and insulting depending on the specific instance and their particular mood at the time, the greater point is that it doesn't matter what the woman thinks because it's not going to stop.
The catcallers are doing it for themselves, not the woman. Forcing the subject of the catcalls to define the terms and meanings of the situation puts things ass-backwards. If men don't have a filter, it's because it's not expected of them.
hollykearl here again. The CNN reporter's "quote" "Oh, sorry. I didn't realize it made you feel that way." was a paraphrase. I've never heard a guy say that either!! lol. I told her some women I studied found that having an assertive response made the guy apologize or back down, but, as others have pointed out above, other women reported that an assertive response only encouraged guys to harass more! There is no one-size-fits-all response to harassment but I don't think that means we have to throw our hands in the air and say, "that's life" and think we have to live with it.
How do you all handle street harassment? What are your ideas for dealing with it?
I've never been catcalled in my life, until this year. I've stopped driving my car and started walking where I need to go, and nine times out of ten, some stooge will blow his horn and lean out his car window to leer at me and shout lewd remarks about my body.
Before this, I would have expected it to scare me, intimidate me somehow. I was surprised to find that it just leaves me feeling like a piece of meat. I'm not sure which is worse.
definitely a power thing on so many levels. you are walking - they are in a car. you flick them off - they yell louder (or, as i got once, drive around the block and come back mad. scary!). they can see you - you can't really see them. it happens to me all the time and it ruins my day.
another thought: what do they think i'm going to do, hop in the back of their pick up and ride off into the sunset? (in other words... what's the point, if not power?)
I've noticed that men rarely catcall when the women is in the presence of other males (e.g., co-workers, or family members).
For this reason, I've always thought of catcalling as a passive aggressive behavior stemming from a deep fear of rejection coupled with a healthy dose of male entitlement.
Some of this fear is channeled into outright hatred (e.g. insults and more aggressive behavior). But I think in many cases, when men catcall, it is an attempt to outwardly objectify a woman, with little risk of hurt to their fragile ego.
After all, it is pretty much expected that women who are catcalled will just keep walking and won't look back.
One thing I've noticed: as a black woman, I am almost never catcalled by men who would even remotely fit the profile of someone that I could see as a potential mate.
There is usually a goofy age differential (e.g. really old men); or a weird ethnic vibe going on...like non-black guys calling me "sistah..."; or black guys who are so not my type (I'll leave it at that).
Now that's just cat calling. I'm not even talking about street stalking, i.e., having to duck out of a Hagen Das Ice cream shop in Pamplona (he was a teacher by the way); and having to deal with some fool "waiting aka stalking " outside my hostel in Brazil. Both of these crazies were visitors like me, so I guess traveling emboldens???
I like macfrugal's approach to the analysis; I think it's important to bear in mind that even though we're discussing "catcalling" as a single phenomenon, its roots are, at least potentially, tremendously broad. Every rationale which is synthesized by the people taking part in this discussion could be 100% accurate for some of the catcallers out there, and completely inapplicable to others.
I'd bet that it's about power for some, and that it's not about power at all for others. It could be an actual pick-up strategy for some (*ahem* Boomhauer), and for others be completely lacking of a decided purpose.
I'd be tempted to say that the one common thread that likely influences ALL of the catcalling is the degree to which the practice is generally accepted, but I'm not even sure we can safely assume that conformity/peer pressure plays into it for everyone. Even if the public attitude were to shift in such a way that catcalling was overwhelmingly regarded as shameful, I'd bet that some of the catcallers would quit, and others would remain oblivious and continue.
Not very helpful I realize; just my $0.02.
Ugh. Catcalling is very creepy.
I also live in a heavily car driven area, I don't experience a lot of typical catcalling. Has anyone experienced a lot of this harassment at gas stations? That's where I experience most of this behavior. As if buying gas isn't depressing enough as it is...
When I first started driving I used to fear going to busy gas stations alone because of it. On several accounts I have both experienced myself and witnessed bi-lingual creeps using Spanish as an intimidation factor when hollering crude comments.
I've developed quite a sharp tongue when handling these kind of situations, so now the only thing I fear about the gas station is the price. And it's true, sometimes guys don't see how they come off sometimes. I've actually received a few sincere apologies.
^Yeah, I live in a rural area where everyone drives and I get all the bullshit at gas stations too. I worked at one for a few years too. I'm sure people get treated like pieces of meat and any service job, but when you're the only employee there it's so much worse.
...
"For this reason, I've always thought of catcalling as a passive aggressive behavior stemming from a deep fear of rejection coupled with a healthy dose of male entitlement."
I totally agree with this.
jmbehrens: I appreciate your comments.
Take a seat in Bryant Park in NYC or at the sleazy I-banker bars in the Financial District and I think you'll find that its not just the people you describe doing the cat-calling. In fact, I think wealth sometimes empowers men to act this way.
I don't doubt "high status" men engage in similar, sexist behavior. It is very likely they feel more "deserved" of behaving that way or more able to get away with it. I think they do so differently. I still have a sense that the very public catcalling/lewd comments is not as common among them. I feel there is more awareness of the social environment, and a restriction of these comments to select "audiences". Basically, they are more concerned about the social repercussions of this behavior, and thus will not do it as publicly. I would expect the more "wait-until-she-leaves-the-room" comments. Again, just a hunch.
Also, I find "low-status" to be a really demeaning and overbroad term for what I think you're trying to describe. Maybe "different socioeconomic class" or "people with less education" would work better, depending on exactly who it is you're talking about.
This is a big difference between psychology and other fields, such as gender studies. We like to lump people together a lot more, and don't consider the more political ramifications of such.
The rationale is that status is a fairly unitary construct, ("socially acknowledged power" would be my shorthand for it), with many ways of achieving it. You can achieve high status via income, knowledge, position/career, group membership, fortune of birth, etc. How ever you get there, the crucial assumption is having it is very much the same.
Are there the differences the more specifically you define things? Yes. Psychology tends to start with big effects, then pick them apart to find the details (reductionism). We don't spend a fraction of the time on defining, or considering the appropriateness and ramifications of our definitions. It is more important when it comes to translating our work back into english, or in actually trying to apply it to the real world (two things we don't do nearly enough of).
Is it insulting to be classified as low status? Yes. We don't tend to walk around pointing at people and say "you're low status" . We describe observed patterns. These people tend to have lower status, etc. Are those two things not as different as I would like to believe? Probably.
So on point 2: I hear you, I'm just not very concerned about it at this junction.
I am a 56 yr old woman and my childbearing years are over (thank god) - and while I still mainain a youthful appearance the fact is that I am middle age. I don't get catcalls anymore.
Like a previous poster said, I am invisible.
I think part of the issue with some guys saying they would be fine with being "cat-called" by women is that street-harassment is a very broad set of behaviors and people have a natural tendency to ignore the extremes.
For example, when I hear the term "cat-calling", I picture a woman walking on a crowded day-lit city street past the stereo-typical line-up of construction workers on their lunch break and getting wolf wistles and corny one-liners. I'm not saying that behavior is OK, just that there are plenty of people (both men & women I think) who would just roll their eyes and shrug at that.
I think that is what men who say they wouldn't mind being cat-called picture as well.
And to be perfectly honest, I would never have associated the type of street harassment some people are describing (being followed and repeatedly propositioned) as "cat-calling" myself either.
This was a well-written and thoughtful post. I hate -- hate -- when I see this. I feel sorry for the women who are forced to endure it. In my experience it's immature men, usually teenage boys, who do it. It's a form of bullying, and it's demeaning.
And it actually happened to me one time when I was about 19 and bicylcing shirtless -- a carload of young women pulled up and started on me. I did not find it flattering -- although I don't think they were being intentionally mean-spirited. They were just having fun, and I was their unwilling straight man. I found it creepy and objectifying in a way I had never felt. And unlike probably a lot of women who experience this sort of thing on a REGULAR basis, I did not feel any threat of physical harm. I suspect that's the worst part for women.
When I get catcalled, I tend to fight back. If it happens while I'm walking down the street, I usually make a comment back about the dude's penis size. Not the most mature or helpful thing, I know, but hell it makes me feel better and it shuts them up. Last summer when I first moved to Western Mass, I was driving home after picking up my son from daycare. I had all of the windows down and was stopped at a light when a car full of frat boys rolled up next to me and started shouting obscenities at me in front of my 2 year old. I flicked them off and they laughed and started to drive off. I wasn't having any of that so I did what a scary dude would do and I followed them. I got on their ass and followed the car for a couple miles. They started to get freaked out and began driving all crazy to get away from me. Perhaps my way isn't the way to get things changed, but I taught those ass holes a lesson that they won't forget.
Like a previous poster said, I am invisible.
My mother has described this to me, and while it must be heaven to walk in public without being harassed, she says that the invisibility extends into professional and most social situations as well. The fact that older women basically get dismissed by patriarchal society is a huge related issue that also has to be addressed. I suppose it's all wrapped up in women only being valued for their perceived sexual attraction.
I know this is a site for young people, but we'll all be there eventually and I think it is worth talking about.
I've noticed that men rarely catcall when the women is in the presence of other males (e.g., co-workers, or family members).
Oh, yes, spike the cat. YES. My husband is incredulous when he calls home (he's overseas right now) and I relate to him how the walk to the post office to mail his care package was fraught with honks and catcalls. It never happens when he's with me, and for a long time I suspected he thought I was making it up.
Apparently it's okay to say what you will to a lone woman. It's not the same as infringing on another dude's "property". It gags me, it really does.
Catcalling/ogling/belligerent heckling/personal space invasion is something I've been accustomed to since age 11.
Men and young boys were really showing their asses with me once I hit 16.
I went through the typical stage of wearing tighter clothing cuz I thought I needed a BF for validity. All it seemed to do was attract unwelcomed attention.
The attention's not as bad now (I'm 27) cuz I wear less tight or more conservative (work) attire pretty regularly. Also, I'm extremely antisocial on mass transit. I read books, keep my iPod blaring, and rock shades to discourage any type of socializing. I go into NYer mode I guess :-)
Some may think that my behavior's extreme, but more and more men nowadays lack good social skills, manners, and are diseased with hypermasculinity. They don't see anything wrong with disrespecting another woman in the fashion that would have them livid if it were their mothers being similarly mistreated. So, I prefer to stay out of trouble cuz it's not a pretty sight when I'm disrespected.
I've found it effective to tell them how my day is going. One construction worker (stereotypes live!) said something like, Hey hot stuff, how's it going? So I told him. "Actually, kind of shitty. I'm tired, I'm going to go home and make lunch, and then go back to the vet to pick up my dog. Then I've got go back home to figure out how I'm getting to Daly City tomorrow to pick up an air conditioner from Target. And on top of it all, it's really hot and I feel like crap because I didn't even have any breakfast. That's how it's going." His only response was, "Um, okay. Uh, hope your day gets better." Hopefully he saw that there's actually something going on in my head when I'm walking by.
Noah, you hit on something.
One thing that's bothersome about catcalling is that the man (or men) is using you, your body, against your will, to work out his own issues, or for his own entertainment.
Sorry that was so poorly phrased.
well said, samhita.
being invisible would be nice, sometimes.
if i had a dollar for every time i got catcalled, i wouldn't have to actually have my job anymore to make a living. i could just get a lawn chair and set it up near my office and walk around in the area a bit. it's insane. generally i ignore it because it is so frequent and i don't want to give them a reaction, but it can really make what is already a bad day worse.
i don't usually feel threatened per se (although sometimes that is definitely the case), particularly during the daytime when there are a lot of other people around, mostly what i feel is embarrassment and anger, like having a penis gives you the unqualified right to voice your uncensored opinions, particularly about my appearance, whenever you feel like it and there's nothing i can do about it. it's a feeling of powerlessness i guess that bothers me most, and invasion of privacy.
blair, "a sidewalk is not a singles bar." a-fucking-men!
Often, Kearl says, an assertive, clear response can elicit a kinder reaction than one expects.
A couple of years ago, some guys called me a ho from their car while I was on campus. The first time, I was walking to class by myself. The second time (yeah, these guys are so smart that they didn't realize they've already harassed me once before), I was with friends. I recognized them immediately, and we paid a visit to campus security with a description of the car and license plate. A couple days later, a campus security guard saw these clowns on campus, and they were warned that if they were ever seen on campus again, they'd be arrested. That's an assertive, clear response, right?
Hopefully he saw that there's actually something going on in my head when I'm walking by.
I would say he was reminded you're an actual person. You were deobjectified.
I'm glad someone brought this up because I also live in San Francisco and just the other day I was waiting for a bus on Mission St with my sister and we saw 3 different cars pass within 5 minutes time full of cat-calling men. My sister and I were fully dressed in sweatshirts and jeans, but a girl standing next to us, in a lovely dress, waiting for her parents to pick her up was the target of these creeps. It was really disheartening to see not one but three cars pass with these lewd calls and noises.
This was before that blazing weekend though, it was freezing out when this incident happened. It happens all the time, despite what women are wearing...this brings to mind the 'well she is asking for it if she wears something skimpy' argument.
Apparently it's okay to say what you will to a lone woman. It's not the same as infringing on another dude's "property". It gags me, it really does.
I agree. It's so ridiculous. The crazy thing is I actually had an encounter with a guy who didn't seem to care that I was with the boyfriend. We were at a mall and I noticed this young dude in passing sort of check me out, but I didnt think anything of it. But then after he passed us this "ballsy" little creep did the whole turn-around-and-lean-back head-tilt and made some crude comments about my ass. He did this right in front of the boyfriend! Of course he didn't take to well to it and immediately started following this creep and shouting crude things while checking out his ass.
I admit it was strange to see him act so aggressively territorial, but it was hilarious and I definitely appreciated that he grave that guy a taste of his own medicine.
I live in SF, and just yesterday i stepped out in my jeans and hoodie to run some errands. not only was I called something horrible as I passed a group of men moving furniture from a business buliding but as I turned the corner to head to my house the man who cat-called me pulled up IN A VAN to the cross walk, looked and me and said " haha I guess I'm following you huh?" to which I immediatly screamed "what the fuck" and ran home mace in hand. All I kept thinking was that I shouldn't have worn my red hoodie.
A lot of people have already made good comments so I'm just going to add that the whole women catcalling men back thing doesn't really work because for the assholes that like to catcall, if the woman doesn't respond then she's just a "stuck up bitch" and they move on to the next target. However, if women start catcalling them it only proves (to them) that they are sooooooooo desirable. The womenz wants them oh so badly and it only makes them look good.
I have no idea how to deal with catcalls, I haven't gotten that many and only one has ever been completely lewd (the guy was on a bike as well and he yelled it at me while peddling past). Though I have had the creepy experience of guys driving by me and then going around the block to come back again. It's happened to me twice, once in MO and once in CA and the only time I felt scared was in CA, I was walking home from the bus stop at night and this guy just tails me for about two blocks. I was afraid I would have to walk to the store or something so he wouldn't know where I lived but luckily he got that my not responding to him meant I wasn't about to get into the car with him (yes, he was asking me if I wanted a "ride").
hat the fuck" and ran home mace in hand. All I kept thinking was that I shouldn't have worn my red hoodie.
I've told my BF on numerous occasions how annoying this type of attention is. He said "Those guys aren't really all that interested in you. A guy that's interested doesn't try to embarrass you and they're showing out for props from their boys."
I've noticed that men rarely catcall when the women is in the presence of other males (e.g., co-workers, or family members).
I've had the opposite experience from spike the cat and starknut. I find that the catcall just takes a different form and is addressed to the guy I'm with, usually a 'compliment' to him on snagging me/dating me/marrying me etc. It's happened to my boyfriend and I on the street, at the toll booth, and many other places where they tell my BOYFRIEND, not me, that I am hot — apparently this is an acceptable "nonoffensive" (to the guy I'm with?) way to talk about how I look.
Last week my male coworker and I were getting our daily morning coffee down the street and (with me out of earshot) some random asks my coworker if I'm his wife. He says No, we work together. The random says "oh, you have the best of both worlds! I would do that!"
My granddad wouldn't wear shorts for the last twenty years of his life, no matter how hot it got, because he had open sores on his leg.
I have a good friend who has severe dermatitis that makes his skin look almost alligator-like. It can be distressing to look at if you don't know what it is, plus it occasionally cracks and "weeps," so he's never without a t-shirt and overshirt, regardless of how high the mercury goes.
Heck, I keep my shirt on all summer because I don't think anyone wants to gaze upon my pale, flabby white boy midriff and man-boobs other than my loving housemate.
My point is, lots of people wear way more clothing than the weather may dictate when it's really hot outside. They don't realistically have a choice. If you've got a young, toned, attractive torso and have boobs firm enough to support a tube top, and you're comfortable choosing to wear that outside in public on a hot day, more power to you.
But please don't whine when somebody vocally admires the good fortune God has seen clear to bless you with. There are a lot of people who'd be very happy to just have skin that doesn't hurt when they move.
oops sorry for multiple posts
But, rtred, they're not admiring anything. If they were, why would they frame it so offensively?
Believe me, I am grateful that I have a body that pretty much does what I want it to. I've been sick for a few years now, and am finally being treated, and I feel better and look healthier, and I assure you the men who leer at me are not doing it to pay me a compliment. They are doing it to remind me that they think my place in on my knees eating their short dicks.
As someone who is normally invisible, I can feel that need for validation from other people. But there is a significant difference between having someone pass you by and say "that's a beautiful color on you", or "you look lovely" and someone asking you to shake your ass or suck their dick.
One is a compliment, the other is harassment. On the few occasions I've had men say something positive to me on the street, it was never sexual or demeaning- and that's where the difference lies.
And it irritates me that anyone thinks people should be grateful for having comments made on their breasts or butts. Saying that you have to put up with that as a part of being beautiful is like saying that I have to put of with comments as a part of being fat or unattractive. Both ways, it is harrassment. Both ways, it is rude and inappropriate.
On the "but the compliments are OK" line of thought: I don't want compliments/comments from random people all the time. When some random guy on the street walks up to me and tell me "You're a beautiful woman" I don't feel like that's the same as a compliment from a friend or acquaintance who says "Nice shoes" or "Cool hair". Maybe that's b/c my friends don't generally give me compliments directly about my physical person (such as "You've got some incredible legs there" or "Sweet ass"). However, I really don't think it's about that. I think it's a matter of people you don't know treating you as though you are there for their entertainment, open to their critique of your performance. I know damn well that people are checking me out; I check out people too. I don't expect them not to. But that doesn't mean I expect them to provide commentary on my appearance, and/or to be angry with me when I don't respond to their commentary.
....but, well, I kind of do expect it, these days; at the rate this happens, I'd be a fool to not. I keep telling myself "It's a cultural difference thing, I can't get angry, it's a cultural difference thing, if I'm angry I'm a racist so I can't let myself be angry" but, damnit... it still makes me feel like meat.
So, any thoughts on the issue of cultural difference? Am I a racist if I tell these guys to go away/f--- off? That's what my friend imply. I'm just torn between my sense that I have a right to be not harassed, and this whole question of some street harassment being a cultural thing that I have to accept as a matter of being understanding towards another culture.
Sorry, that was so, so tangential of me.
Misskate, if it's racist to stand up for yourself, you go on and be a racist.
In college, when I wore my hair long, I got catcalled a few times while walking with a group of girls. My response was always to yell out "Thanks!" in my deepest, manliest voice, then watch them peel out.
A couple of years later, I was paying for gas and my wife was sitting in the car, when a group of guys pulled up next to her and started in. As soon as I saw what was going on, I came out like a f---ing silverback, chest out, head down, arms out, and locked eyes with the driver.
He drove off, and I promptly got the shakes, wondering what the hell I would have done if they'd gotten out of the car.
Holy crap, I knew Holly Kearl's sister in high school. Glad to see she's doing good work!
I vividly remember my first episode of street harassment. I was only 11 years old and while I was walking home from the bus stop, a car full of older guys drove up alongside me. One of them stuck his head out the window and mimed cunnilingus with his fingers and tongue. At the time, I had no idea what he was doing, but when I later figured it out I was thoroughly disgusted.
"It's a cultural difference thing, I can't get angry, it's a cultural difference thing, if I'm angry I'm a racist so I can't let myself be angry"
I would think the 'racist' part would be to assume that it's a 'cultural difference' thing and not an a**hole thing.
I make sure when on the streets never to make eye-contact with women, to speak to them, or be too physically close to them. I'll wait until the next elevator car if stepping in means I'd be alone with a woman on it. etc.
Of course, because I'm a man of color, that behavior smacks a bit like the way black men had to act around white women in order to be safe in Jim Crow days. But whatever.
I had a strange day last Friday with this sort of thing. In my town allofasudden the waether has gone up to 90 degrees, and I was baking in Capri pants.
I put on a skirt and biked over to my friend's BBQ. In my town, it's legal to bike in the street, and some what illegal to bike on the side walk. The most direct route over involved a busy thouroufare, so
I was being carfeull and huging the curb as I biked. As I pulled over at a stop light, I heard a female voice yelling at me from the passenger's side of the nearest car "Get off the street! Go on the sidewalk!" Move! Bikes shouldn't be on the streets!" in what I would call a 7 on the 1 to 10 scale of pissed anger, and it was begging to rankle me, as well as make me fear my safety. I felt that making eye contact with a "yeller" usually ups the ante, but to show I wouldn't be cowed I eventually screamed back "shut UP!" as I then , yes, biked onto the sidewalk in case the driver felt like mowing me down to make a point.
As I got on the sidewalk, a group of teen boys who had been across the street watching the exchange suddenly involved themselves. "Leave her alone!" "Yeah, Bitch!"
Then they waved at me, showing themselves on my team. I waved back, somewhat sheepishly.
Now, of course I wasn't sure that they were on my side to advocate bicycle rights, as I was the visible one that was wearing a summer skirt. And, calling the woman a bitch wasn't the greatest way to deal with it. It seems as if the might have catcalled me but due t the situation just joined the verbal fray instead.
But, as a change, it was very interesting to actually have teen males stick up for me, as they have most often been, in my experience, aggressors.
Lastly on that trip, I stopped by the store, to get some lemonade and tuffi cuties. The cashier asks me if I am a school girl. Now, my skirt was just like 3 inches above the knees, so don't paint me in your mind in a stripper costume. English wasnt the cashier's first language so I didn't really correct him. However, my friends who work there say he totally knows better, and is often inviting cute female costumers back to his home country.
It was the first HOT day in my town, and everybody was going crazy.
macfrugal:
I see what you mean re: that the terminology isn't as important as I was perhaps making it out to be.
Still, I'm uncomfortable with the assumption that people of "lower status" (which I think for the purposes of this conversation we mean less wealthy, or, taken more broadly, less credentialed with social capital, be it economic, education, social predominance, etc) have less of a "filter" and therefore a proclivity toward sexist behavior and catcalling and the like. I see catcalling as a serious problem that, in my experience, seems to act itself out across classes.
Yesterday there was a post on this blog about the extraordinarily high rate at which women experience sexual harassment. It just doesn't add up that the bulk of harassment -- catcalling or anything else -- is coming from the lower classes. If there's data to that effect, I'll stop talking right now, but otherwise I'm worried that assumptions are being made based on anecdotal-at-best evidence, and I feel the possibility that personal bias (subconscious) is being introduced.
@jmbehrens: it's entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that the bulk of office harassment is the province of white collar / high status men while the bulk of street harassment comes from blue collar/low status men.
....but, well, I kind of do expect it, these days; at the rate this happens, I'd be a fool to not. I keep telling myself "It's a cultural difference thing, I can't get angry, it's a cultural difference thing, if I'm angry I'm a racist so I can't let myself be angry" but, damnit... it still makes me feel like meat.
So, any thoughts on the issue of cultural difference? Am I a racist if I tell these guys to go away/f--- off? That's what my friend imply. I'm just torn between my sense that I have a right to be not harassed, and this whole question of some street harassment being a cultural thing that I have to accept as a matter of being understanding towards another culture.
Never feel this way. You have a fight to defend yourself. This issue isn't about you, it's about them. It isn't necessarily connected to culture, because, trust me, if they were to see someone act that way towards their female relative or significant others, it will surely irritate them even to the point of violence. I see this happen all the damn time. So they know it's bad to do this. As macfrugal pointed out somewhat, it is a power issue and it's quite frequent of men of lower socioeconomic backgrounds. If they are under the constant dictation of others and have no "power" themselves, particularly over their economic situation, then they will attempt to show "power" elsewhere. Acts, such as catcalling, are one of these outlets. (This is not to say that men with more privileges are not exempt from harassing women, and that every man who has a low income catcalls. Definitely not.)
And this "whole niceness" issue needs to be addressed and it needs to stop. Women need to stop thinking that they have to be nice because they are afraid of what people might perceive of them.