Just out of curiosity, is it insensitive to talk shit about my own body in the presence of people who may have "worse" physiques than I do?

I'm a lot more judgmental about my own physique than that of other people, particularly women. So I'll sometimes vocalize my distaste for my own form when with people who certainly have more body fat than I do.

talking shit about other people's bodies, which I would argue, is an absolute projection of self-hate.

...cos all critics are just jealous and all bullies are really cowards.

Just out of curiosity, is it insensitive to talk shit about my own body in the presence of people who may have "worse" physiques than I do?

...Yes. Yes, it is.

Also, complaining about your body is just incredibly dull conversation, so people of every shape and size will probably be delighted to talk with you about other, more interesting, things instead.

What Sheila said.

I engage in body-snarking all the time, although always in my own head. I'll think "wow, how can she look at herself in the mirror?" or "god that dress makes her look fat". It's utterly the result of me not liking my own body and trying to make myself feel better because at least I don't look like "those" women.

As an aside here, our coffee group mentioned last night that America's Top Model declared a "victory for plus-sized women everywhere" because their winner was a size 10!

Our group has several gorgeous women in it (including my lady friend) and not a one of them is smaller than a 16.

Is it bodysnarking to mock the super skinny models on vacuous television programs?

Is it bodysnarking to mock the super skinny models on vacuous television programs?

Also, a sign of your absolute self-hatred.

Is it bodysnarking to mock the super skinny models on vacuous television programs?

Aren't they at a substantial risk to have an eating disorder? If making image comments is bad, wouldn't targeting women who may have a psychological disorder as a root of their image be extra bad?

There's a difference between bodysnarking and bad-fashion-choice snarking (the bedrock on which the Glamour Don't is built). I do not engage in the former, but will still snark at coinslots.

I have had many lady-friends who are just built super skinny. Or have lost a lot of weight due to depression or medication. Or have been fat and healthy. Or unhealthy. Whatever. It is NEVER appropriate to make judgment calls about body size. That is a personal issue, and unless said person has indicated that they would like their body scrutinized, just don't. It pains me when feminist male friends talk sh*t about skinny women. I get that I'm supposed to appreciate that they don't prefer model-type bodies, but it's still reducing women to their bodies. And totally disrespectful.
Sophia86 - ouch! I appreciate your honesty, and also your ability to admit that your snarking is based on your own relationship to your body. But dang! I sincerely hope that you keep that sh*t in check when you do it (or at least keep your reactions to yourself).

Aren't they at a substantial risk to have an eating disorder? If making image comments is bad, wouldn't targeting women who may have a psychological disorder as a root of their image be extra bad?

GAH. NO, but assuming that any thin woman has some disorder is extra bad! About as bad as assuming that every obese person you see looks the way she does because she just can't stop eating. We know that such assumptions about bigger people aren't acceptable and that we should feel guilty if we make those assumptions, even silently. So what's with this fucking cultural license to assume that if a woman's thin, she's a case study? It seems more than a little tainted with a sexist attitude that suspects all women of neurosis or childish behavior.

I don't know how many times in my life I've gotten the old incredulous "do you even eat?" or "you actually have an appetite!" or even a flat-out "are you anorexic or something?" I even had a high school teacher take it upon herself to school me about eating; evidently she didn't notice that I did it quite often. Somehow, people convince themselves, I guess, that jumping to sexist conclusions just indicates their concern for other people's health. That's bull.

Ugh - I hate this shit! I am a fat girl who loves her body and ALWAYS calls out other women when I hear them talk shit on their own bodies. Flinging their crap talk back in their face actually makes them think about what they're saying rather than just mindlessly verbalizing the self-hate they way so many women have become accustomed to doing.

I agree with Whitemore though, I will rag on an ugly outfit 'til the cows come home. Bad fashion is a crime; our god-given natural bodies aren't.

"Bodysnarking" about others or yourself is just boring, if you ask me. It is one of the reasons I have a hard time finding female friends, because many women expect another woman to join in when they do it but I don't. I just don't see the point.

Although it is interesting to think about why someone would do that. I've noticed my husband doing this a lot more in recent years, and he has simultaneously gained some weight that makes him very uncomfortable with how he looks.

And just to make sure there's still something to complain about even if you *don't* have obvious body "faults," try Googling for "Hot Chicks with Douchebags." Male partners as un-fashion accessories, who'd have thought?

Actually the intention seems to be a guy jibing at... either women's bad taste in men or else just men's bad taste. Either way it's more body slamming.

figleaf

everybodyever, sorry, hadn't meant it like that, I phrased it too simplistically. The comment I was responding to was "is it okay to mock super skinny models," and I meant that models were at a higher risk for eating disorders since they're judged on their body image on a professional basis. I'm under the impression that models have a higher incidence of eating disorders for that reason, and that eating disorders are one of the most dangerous consequences of a negative body image that a culture of being overly critical of people's bodies is. Is that valid?

Yay! For once I'm proud because I don't do this =)

There are a few things I'd change about my own body if I could, but I certainly don't feel awful about it the way I did when I was a teenager.

I had a funny and somewhat-related dream last night: I dreamt I was in a car accident and a cosmetic surgeon had to remake part of my face. The features he had to refigure he did to what /he/ thought looked good. When he was done with my nose it was smaller (which is something I sometimes think I want) but I thought it was /too/ small and I didn't like the shape and it didn't look right with my face and I was pretty distressed. When I woke up it was a relief to find my familiar "Jewish" nose still there. Happy ending. hah

When I'm bored, I hang out on Yahoo Answers, and I am always surprised by the number of questions that resemble this one: "GUYS: What hair style/clothing style/body type do you like on a girl?"

I always have to step in and tell them that they will never be happy with their bodies until they learn to accept themselves the way they are, no matter how many guys like their looks.

It's time we stop letting your youth think that the answer to all their image problems is fitting in. We need to be accepting of all persons, so that we can allow them to accept themselves.

identity, I'm sorry I snapped. I realize now that my comment sounded really pissed. I understand your point re: models generally potentially being at greater risk than non-models for weight hang-ups, but I think it's unfair to limit that to the "super skinny" ones. Plus, I think it's easy for people -- not you, but just people generally -- to extrapolate comments about thin models' potential eating disorders and apply them to thin women more generally. Because, you know, we women are all so subject to the vagaries of fashion and advertising.

To get back on topic, though, about this bodysnark thing: Thank God I somehow miss out on this. Perhaps it's because I'm friends with a lot of guys and with women who just don't beat themselves up over their bodies. I do notice, however, that my presence -- especially when wearing tight jeans, skirts or bathing suits -- seems to guilt-trip certain friends of mine about their own bodies, and in turn I feel kind of guilty for bringing up the issue just by wearing clothes that flatter my figure.

(I am actually guilty, however, of being hard on myself for not being in better shape. Although I'm thin, I'm not as thin as I used to be, and I tend to criticize myself and sometimes avoid wearing certain things because I feel flabby and not toned enough. Compounding the self-consciousness, of course, is the fact that my ex-gymnast boyfriend is thinner than I am and very toned. It's one of those issues that I beat myself up for yet more because I know it's such an unfeminist, awful way to view myself.)

Whoa, didn't mean to bold all that. Meant to just bold "identity." Whoops.

Nah, you didn't do anything wrong, I just said something that could be interpreted multiple ways.

Sometimes when people look terrible in their outfits, it's because the outfit does not fit the person correctly. Why doesn't the outfit fit? B/c off the rack clothing isn't tailored for a very wide variety of body shapes, and not everyone has access to a wide variety of designers. So really, we are getting back to body type. Next time you want to harsh on someone's outfit, think about how it would look if it didn't bag at the chest or bind at the hips or whatever.

(Mixing spots and stripes is still fair game ;P )

It pains me when feminist male friends talk sh*t about skinny women. I get that I'm supposed to appreciate that they don't prefer model-type bodies, but it's still reducing women to their bodies. And totally disrespectful.

I honestly don't understand the whole reducing women to their bodies thing. I've been seriously confused about what it means exactly for some time and feeling incredibly guilty about it.

Am I not allowed to feel sexually attracted to a woman without knowing them first?

Put another way, if I get an erection because I see some woman I don't know and have no intention of getting to know, should I feel ashamed?

Or is it only if I make judgments about the woman unrelated to their physical appearance?

I honestly don't understand the whole reducing women to their bodies thing. I've been seriously confused about what it means exactly for some time and feeling incredibly guilty about it.

Its basically a reaction of puritanical upbringing that shows shame about ones body.

Put another way, if I get an erection because I see some woman I don't know and have no intention of getting to know, should I feel ashamed? Or is it only if I make judgments about the woman unrelated to their physical appearance?

You're over-thinking this. People are attracted or not attracted to each other for all kinds of reasons. That's just part of being human. No, you don't need to be ashamed of basic feelings of attraction. Or non-attraction. That's all good.

The only guideline you should remember is not to be an asshole about it. Calling attention to your erection would be harassment. Letting strangers know that you find them attractive or unattractive would be harassment.

Making comments about people's bodies to other people adds to an atmosphere in which people are judged primarily on how they look. Does it accomplish anything useful? No. So why do it if it only produces harm?

Nobody is telling you that you can't have feelings about the people you see. I'm attracted and unattracted to people all the time, I just don't feel obliged to oppress strangers with my opinions.

To add on to what sgzax said,

I have noticed how men (moreso than women) like to try and establish "social norms" for what should be considered attractive in the opposite sex. I hear so many men trying to defend there preferences as "this is biological" or "this is what all men want". No, it's not, b/c different people like different things. So why not just accept that? It's like a lot of men want to make sure they're only attracted to what men are "supposed" to be attracted to or something, or else are trying to convince other men that what they're attracted to is the "best". I assume this is a cultural thing, b/c women don't make those type of comments/have those conversations nearly as much.

And that way of thinking/talking is very objectifying to women, and adds to a toxic culture in which people who fit outside a narrow image (whether it's the "skinny ideal" or the "curvy ideal" or the "girlish looking" ideal etc.) can feel very bad about themselves...

The only guideline you should remember is not to be an asshole about it. Calling attention to your erection would be harassment. Letting strangers know that you find them attractive or unattractive would be harassment.

Heh. I was using the erection as an extreme. :)

So essentially I can think whatever I want in my own head as long as I don't express it in any way. Hrm.

I admit I compliment women (and men) a lot on their clothes especially if I notice something expensive or unusual since I figure they spent extra time on it. I can't imagine it would make anyone feel uncomfortable to compliment them on their shoes, but then somewhere in the back of my mind I worry about it.

The thing is being a young successful white male means that I end up feeling like some sort of oppressor of all. My Jewish/Catholic background doesn't exactly help in the guilt department (both sides claim to have invented it after all).

It would be nice if there was some sort of Modern Man's Guide to Civility.

I always figure "don't be an asshole" should be enough of a guideline when dealing with people in the real world. If you need to nitpick within that broad guideline then yes, there might be a problem, and maybe you do need to examine your behavior and your justifications for your behavior a little more closely.

But I don't think it's always fair to "call people on their shit" either, cubical gal. I am overweight and I hate the way I look. I absolutely hate it. I know I shouldn't, I know it's not fair to me, but I absolutely hate it. I have sisters who are around the same size as me and they are perfectly happy with the way they look and I am so proud of them for it- I really wish I was. And I get huge amounts of crap for not being ok with the way I look and it only makes me feel like more shit. I have co-workers that are much, much skinnier than I am who constantly talk about how disgusting certain body types are, who are constantly talking about how fat they are, who compliment me the second I lose a pound and it just feeds this insecurity. Not to mention that a person who is very close to me used to criticize my appearance almost daily- I needed to diet, my stretch marks were disgusting, when was I going to lose weight, etc... He stopped when I pointed out to him how hurtful it was, but it has still left huge emotional scars, to the point where I hate eating in front of him. Then he gets pissy because "I was just kidding". It's a lot harder to love your body when you are not only surrounded by the media telling you on a daily basis how disgusting and fat you are, but those you interact with every day of your life, or even worse, those you live with and share children with. So if someone "threw my crap back in my face" I would probably just cry. Not in front of you of course, but I can't admit that anyone hurt my feelings, but I would when I got home. I get that it's self-hatred and not healthy, but being scolded and lectured about it only makes me feel worse about myself.
That out of the way, I have a much easier time with other people's bodies than I do my own. I can look at someone who is probably the same size as me, or even heavier for that matter and realize that they have a perfectly normal body type.

I can't relate to the weight insecurities but I have had some fashion sense insecurities so I stick to simple and not noticeable things like jeans and a T-shirt. I just don't want to stand out in case I look bad. So I've always hated clothes shopping but it's getting better I think. I tried to try some new things last time and even bought a casual dress.

I grew up with a mom who counted calories half the time and always wanted to lose five pounds. Thankfully it didn't really affect us, probably just made us determined to not be like that when we grew up because it seems like such a waste of energy.