I am so sad and disgusted upon hearing of her death. The "slut shaming" that takes place in this country is reprehensible. Are they happy now, that a woman is dead? Disgusting.

Well, if I were facing 55 years in prison, suicide might look like a pretty good option.

On the other hand, there may be something more. Perhaps she had the goods on some high profile people and made a plea bargain to just disappear. Maybe the dead woman isn't even her. Or she could have been silenced.

There's a part of me that believes that Ken Lay had extensive plastic surgery and is living the high life in some South American country. His money could have arranged that.

I don't understand why she wasn't evaluated by a psychiatrist during this ordeal.

I am not a conspiracy theory type at all, but I wonder about this story. I followed the WaPo articles on the case and she seemed to be a real fighter, not the suicide type. But her mother would be able to tell investigators if she was particularly depressed. The CNN story says she was found hanging. If really a suicide, very sad.

I read in one of the stories that the expected sentence was 2-5 years.

I wonder if the prosecutors will even miss one night's sleep.

I'm so happy Feministing is covering this.

When I read the news about Deborah Jeane Palfrey's death, it punched me in the gut. I'd read the $pread interview with her some months ago, and what emerged was the portrait of an extraordinarily smart, tough, unsentimental woman, a fighter you had to admire. Seeing her railroaded to suicide, while the people who used her services (and caused misery for sex workers around the world) get away scot-free, is disgusting.

Thanks for posting about her death. Rest in peace, Deborah Jeane.

This is just heartbreaking.

To go against the grain, a little: I don't think people who purchase sex (as long as they are not violent and doing everything with full consent), or people who sell it should face legal consequences.

I say full decriminalization is the way to go. Johns aren't always awful people - more often than not, they're just "normal".

The "slut shaming" that happens is totally absurd, too.

55 years is a life sentence! What did she do, murder somebody? Yes, it is true that individual infractions add up, but punishment for victimless crime is best viewed as a deterrent for a specific violation, not restitution for a victim; in which case the power of each additional year of punishment should be viewed in the manner of diminishing returns.

I think its absurd the lack of proportionality in our legal system. A quick search online reveals that the average first degree murder sentence in Colorado and Illinois carry a 30-35 year sentence.

SHE WASN'T FACING 55 YEARS. Sorry to type it in all caps like that, but I get sick of people commenting without even bothering to read the actual story. (Yes, I do it too sometimes. Just sayin'.) Anyway, she was facing something like 2-6 years; maybe that first person made a typo and meant to just type 5 rather than 55.

I have mixed feelings about this, however. Obviously her suicide is tragic, though sadly there are many who won't see it that way - but at the same time, I have a hard time feeling sorry for a woman who is essentially a female pimp. I will defend girls who prostitute themselves because in so many cases they've suffered abuse, homelessness, etc. - but what is this woman's excuse? She's selling other women out to men, which is just as wrong to me as if a man does it.

Anyone else have thoughts on that?

SoupChef:

I'm not for having prostitution be a illegal in the sense that it's currently illegal (having prostitutes arrested and sent to jail and all). But there /are/ some serious systemic problems with prostitution. I'm reposting some stats for a second time, since this issue keeps coming up in various forms on feministing:

Some statistics, for whoever asked (You know statistics are always imperfect, and vary from study to study, but here are some different ones I found that should give you a general idea):

"A 1995 study by the National Criminal Justice Reference Service (NCJRS) found that people who were sexually abused as children are a whopping 27.7 times as likely as others to be arrested for prostitution. "

"The CIR study showed that 21.4 percent of women working as escorts had been raped 10 times or more, with comparable rates for other types of sex work. "

http://www.rapeis.org/activism/prostitution/sexworkerscivilrights.htm

"Eighty-two percent of these respondents reported having been physically assaulted since entering prostitution. Of those who had been physically assaulted, 55% had been assaulted by customers. Eighty-eight percent had been physically threatened while in prostitution, and 83% had been physically threatened with a weapon....Sixty-eight percent...reported having been raped since entering prostitution. Forty-eight percent had been raped more than five times. Forty-six percent of those who reported rapes stated that they had been raped by customers. "

"Fifty-seven percent reported a history of childhood sexual abuse, by an average of 3 perpetrators. Forty-nine percent of those who responded reported that as children, they had been hit or beaten by a caregiver until they had bruises or were injured in some way...Many seemed profoundly uncertain as to just what "abuse" is. When asked why she answered "no" to the question regarding childhood sexual abuse, one woman whose history was known to one of the interviewers said: "Because there was no force, and, besides, I didn't even know what it was then - I didn't know it was sex." "

http://womensissues.about.com/od/rapesexualassault/a/Wuornos.htm

"I say full decriminalization is the way to go. Johns aren't always awful people - more often than not, they're just "normal"."

Define "normal". It's a bit subjective, don't you think? Most men in this country have /not/ gone to prostitutes, and a very large number of men would be significantly disturbed by the idea of having sex with someone who they knew was only doing it for the money, rather than out of an actual desire to have sex with them...

"but what is this woman's excuse? She's selling other women out to men, which is just as wrong to me as if a man does it.

Anyone else have thoughts on that?"

I guess I kind of agree with you.

In the book "Callgirl: Confessions of An Ivy League Lady of Pleasure" the author describes how working for a madame /is/ generally better than working for a pimp (she was talked to like a person, her madame tried not to send her to too many bad customers, etc.), but she still suffered some abuse at the hands of clients, etc.

It wasn't a typo.

In this article it said she could face "up to 55 years" though obviously I don't know what that means.

So, Liz, you're basically saying the death penalty for a madam is an appropriate punishment? That is what you're saying here, right?

"but what is this woman's excuse? She's selling other women out to men, which is just as wrong to me as if a man does it."

I thought (unless I misread?) that the money made was shared equally among all. That she wasn't making more money off of it than the sex workers? It doesn't sound like the same as trafficking girls illegally and not letting them have freedom.

The statistics cited above are disturbing, but I think people need to realize that a lot of the violence prostitutes face is CAUSED by prostitution being illegal. If you are a prostitute and you are threatened or assaulted by a customer, who do you call? The police will be just as likely to arrest you as to investigate your complaint.

Prostitutes who are able to work legally (such as in the legal Nevada brothels) face DRAMATICALLY lower rates of assault and STI exposure.

And I don't understand why it is relevant (if it is even true) that many prostitutes survived sexual abuse? What is the point of that? Invariably such statistics are used to say that prostitution is bad. Why is something negative just because the people who engage in it have had something bad happen to them? Doesn't it strike anyone else as a way to say that these women are somehow forever damaged and must be protected from themselves?

As for "a large number" of men being "disturbed" with someone having sex with them for money, so what? I would venture to say that most men in this country have not had anal sex with another man. Many might even be disturbed with the idea of doing so. Does that make homosexuality any less valid of a choice? Or something that needs to be justified?

I saw a prostitutes' rights sticker a few months ago that said something along the lines of "Do you believe women have the right to control their own bodies? Great, so do we! Decriminalize now!"

I believe she was also convicted of money laundering, and likely was not paying taxes or declaring the income, hence, the stiffer penalty.

What galls me is that Senator Vitter kept his cushy job after his diaper fetish encounter with one of the Madam's call girls.

Legislation that punishes the prostitutes, but not the johns, makes about as much sense as punishing abortion doctors, but not the woman.

I wonder if she was murdered to shut her up.

"The statistics cited above are disturbing, but I think people need to realize that a lot of the violence prostitutes face is CAUSED by prostitution being illegal. If you are a prostitute and you are threatened or assaulted by a customer, who do you call? The police will be just as likely to arrest you as to investigate your complaint.

Prostitutes who are able to work legally (such as in the legal Nevada brothels) face DRAMATICALLY lower rates of assault and STI exposure. "

Are you sure about this, or are you just speculating? I know that feministing had an article on the case in Nevada awhile back, and it seemed like the situation for many if not most prostitutes in Nevada is actually pretty awful...

"As for "a large number" of men being "disturbed" with someone having sex with them for money, so what? I would venture to say that most men in this country have not had anal sex with another man. Many might even be disturbed with the idea of doing so. Does that make homosexuality any less valid of a choice? Or something that needs to be justified?"

Well, prostitution is objectification of women, homosexual sex is a choice made by two (or more) people, for just as many varied choices as heterosexual couples choose to have sex, although ideally b/c they /want/ to have sex with each other. The cases aren't directly analogous, from a lot of peoples' (and a lot of feminists') moral standpoint.

I couldn't find the article on prostitution in Nevada I was thinking of, that focuses on abuse experienced by legalized sex workers, but here's an article focusing on some different problems with legalizing prostitution:

http://plumer.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html#5839072343217293439

Here, I think this may be the original article I was thinking of. Read it, really.:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/07/usa.gender

"And I don't understand why it is relevant (if it is even true) that many prostitutes survived sexual abuse? What is the point of that? Invariably such statistics are used to say that prostitution is bad. Why is something negative just because the people who engage in it have had something bad happen to them?"

Well, when you realize that having experienced sexual abuse has a high correlation with depression and low self-esteem, it brings into serious question whether people making the choice to prostitute themselves feel very positively about it, or about themselves. I doubt most prostitutes ever sought professional help for their abuse. Don't you think that would be a place to start, making it easier for women in our country to access help for being abused?

"Doesn't it strike anyone else as a way to say that these women are somehow forever damaged and must be protected from themselves? "

No. It strikes me as evidence that we need to provide more attractive employment options for people on the bottom rungs of the economic scale in this country.

tragic and disturbing.

i tend to favor decriminalization of prostitution but i understand how it is a complex issue there are serious downsides. i like to think that a regulated system is possible that would address the problems with the nevada system. it's hard for me to imagine prostitution going away entirely, cynical though that may seem, so i think that some sort of improvements could be made so that we don't have prostitutes (and not johns!) going to jail and being abused. nina, you are totally right about providing more attractive employment options so that everyone really has a choice to do sex work or not and to me that's really the root of any effective solution. i just don't think that leaving things the way they are is an acceptable interim option either.

When you see or hear reports that a criminal defendant is facing X years of imprisonment, reporters are usually reporting the maximum sentences available for the crimes charged or convicted. That is the most sensational way to report it after all, and though technically true generally unlikely. When you are charged with reckless driving you are likely facing 12 months in prison, but even repeat offenders rarely do jail time. I read today that federal sentencing guidelines put Palfrey's likely sentence between 57 and 71 months.

Prostitutes who are able to work legally (such as in the legal Nevada brothels) face DRAMATICALLY lower rates of assault and STI exposure. "

Are you sure about this, or are you just speculating? I know that feministing had an article on the case in Nevada awhile back, and it seemed like the situation for many if not most prostitutes in Nevada is actually pretty awful...

Yes, I am sure about this, there has actually been a lot of research done on this topic. Here are some abstracts if you would like to learn more:

http://jiv.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/20/3/270
http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=210426

Ninapendamaishi,

I read the article you linked, it is about Melissa Farley and her book “Making the Connections.� One of the links I posted above addresses some of the flaws in her methodology (The Journal “Violence Against Women� has an on-going debate between her and some other researchers about this – it is fascinating reading). Here is another take on her “research� that sums things up better than I ever could:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2007/sep/15/hands-tied-on-prostitution/

The legal brothels have a LOT of problems, and I do NOT think it is a good or fair system for the women working there. But it is physically safer than other types of prostitution in America. It is just logical that an activity that doesn't have to be hidden would be safer.

Well, prostitution is objectification of women, homosexual sex is a choice made by two (or more) people, for just as many varied choices as heterosexual couples choose to have sex, although ideally b/c they /want/ to have sex with each other. The cases aren't directly analogous, from a lot of peoples' (and a lot of feminists') moral standpoint.

A commercial sex transaction and an intimate encounter are not analogous. My point is that social and legal policy should not be determined based on people’s presumed comfort level with the acts in question. Just because some people are uncomfortable with commercial sex does not make it wrong. There are plenty of sexual acts which are just not my cup of tea, that doesn’t mean that other people shouldn’t engage in them.

Well, when you realize that having experienced sexual abuse has a high correlation with depression and low self-esteem, it brings into serious question whether people making the choice to prostitute themselves feel very positively about it, or about themselves. I doubt most prostitutes ever sought professional help for their abuse. Don't you think that would be a place to start, making it easier for women in our country to access help for being abused?

That would be a great place to start. But how would eliminating prostitution get us there? I can accept that many prostitutes don’t feel good about their work, I could even believe that prostitutes have higher than average rates of past sexual abuse. What bothers me is that these statistics are ALWAYS presented in isolation. No one ever talks about this in comparison to women in other fields. I have never even heard of a study asking any other type of worker about their sexual abuse histories. How many women working in fast food or retail have been abused (or feel negatively about their jobs)? It is probably less than the levels for sex workers, but how do we know? The numbers are never presented next to each other.

So often it seems as if sex workers are just assumed to be miserable, unhappy, and pitiful creatures with terrible lives and tragic pasts. They are never portrayed as competent adult women.

Don't you think that would be a place to start, making it easier for women in our country to access help for being abused?

Seems to me like the place to start would be to stop throwing these women in jail.

"Don't you think that would be a place to start, making it easier for women in our country to access help for being abused?

Seems to me like the place to start would be to stop throwing these women in jail."

I already mentioned I support the latter, you know. One does not negate the other.

analog2000,

I'm glad you concede there are serious problems even with the legal situation in Nevada. But, what you did above to counter the journal article I posted was to post two abstracts by single authors claiming to find "problems in the methodology" of previous studies done on the matter. But since I could only access the abstracts, not the studies themselves, I could not see what "problems" they were talking about. Have you read the articles themselves, so you can explain the problems in methodologies here?

As I mentioned, /every study in the world/ has some imperfections in their methodologies...

"That would be a great place to start. But how would eliminating prostitution get us there? "

Again, I think prostitution is systemic. I think what we need to do is create more, higher paid jobs for people who normally struggle financially (low-income people and especially immigrants). I actually recently had to read a book for Anthro class about Puerto Riccan crack dealers in New York City, and one thing the author does is outline how difficult it is for many of them to get into "legal work", even basic low-paid things many of us from white-collar backgrounds would take for granted, b/c of the differences between street culture and professional work environments. And plus, they can make more money in illegal activities...

"So often it seems as if sex workers are just assumed to be miserable, unhappy, and pitiful creatures with terrible lives and tragic pasts. They are never portrayed as competent adult women."

Or they're portrayed as Pretty Woman or selfish money-grubbing brats (Ashley Dupre anyone?) which are definitely unrealistic. And men who want to use prostitutes, justify it as "choice" without regards to the social, economic factors that possibly contributed to them getting there.

"No one ever talks about this in comparison to women in other fields. I have never even heard of a study asking any other type of worker about their sexual abuse histories. How many women working in fast food or retail have been abused (or feel negatively about their jobs)? "

Well, fast-food work and retail work /usually/ has nothing to do with sex. So wouldn't you assume that the number of people having experienced any given sexual history would roughly reflect the national average?

That would be 1 out of 3 to 1 out of 4 women having been sexually assaulted, depending on what study you look at, btw.

"Or they're portrayed as Pretty Woman or selfish money-grubbing brats (Ashley Dupre anyone?) which are definitely unrealistic"

Btw, I meant the media surrounding Dupre, not that I think that's what Dupre /is/

Studies /have/ been done, for instance, comparing sexual abuse in women from different economic classes. What I have been told, at least, by a non-profit worker is that there is actually minimal difference in sexual abuse, based simply on class background.

When I read the news about Deborah Jeane Palfrey's death, it punched me in the gut. I'd read the $pread interview with her some months ago, and what emerged was the portrait of an extraordinarily smart, tough, unsentimental woman, a fighter you had to admire.

Are you kidding?

I mean come on, I know that you guys are feminists, but this woman was a PIMP. Regardless of how you feel about the legality of prositution, almost everyone not a pimp themselves universally agrees that pimping is a reprehensible, awful vocation that is essentially equal to being a slave trader.

I can't believe how willing you guys are to forgive a woman for things you would absolutely crucify a man over. Double standard much? This woman was scum. The "slut shaming" at the trial had nothing to do with her. It's not her that had to have sex for money. It's the poor girls she abused. So please, save your sympathy for her former employees whose lives are ruined, not the evil person who ruined them.

How do you know that her former employees' lives are "ruined"? That's a judgement you are in no position to make. Also, I am not sure what calling this woman "scum" adds to the debate.

It's really naive that some of you think that prostitution can ever be eliminated. It's called The World's Oldest Profession for a reason. Arguing over the decrim. of prostitution is going to do nothing for women who, for whatever reason, chose to be sex workers. We need to ensure the safety and health of sex workers. Decriminalization is the only way to do that.

Turning women into fall-ladies for a victimless crime only reinforces the prison industrial complex. I have no desire whatsoever to do that.

How do you know that her former employees' lives are "ruined"? That's a judgement you are in no position to make. Also, I am not sure what calling this woman "scum" adds to the debate.

It's really naive that some of you think that prostitution can ever be eliminated. It's called The World's Oldest Profession for a reason. Arguing over the decrim. of prostitution is going to do nothing for women who, for whatever reason, chose to be sex workers. We need to ensure the safety and health of sex workers. Decriminalization is the only way to do that.

Turning women into fall-ladies for a victimless crime only reinforces the prison industrial complex. I have no desire whatsoever to do that.

"Turning women into fall-ladies for a victimless crime only reinforces the prison industrial complex. I have no desire whatsoever to do that. "

No one on this thread is advocating that. Straw argument. We're all against arresting the prostitutes. Reread the thread.

As you would know if you read the articles linked to above, simply decriminilizing prostitution does not protect the prostitutes' health and safety either.

We need a lot of changes: social, econonmic, etc. People should be arrested for buying sex, not for selling it. After we fix the econonmic system and provide more education about violence against women in our country and ways for women to get help. /Then/ maybe prostitution can be decriminilized w/o it simply resulting in more women going into a profession where they'll face abuse, but only if it's heavily regulated.

"It's called The World's Oldest Profession for a reason."

I am an Anthropology major. I can tell you that that is a social/political argument based on speculation, and largely made by men who assumed women would be using sex to get food, protection etc. in prehistoric times. That's also really questionable. Women have always worked hard to gather food and bring the family a lot of calories themselves, but for a long time Anthropology was a male-dominated feel with very male-centric theories...

There are a lot of small towns in America that don't have prostitution. It exists in big cities b/c of the level of anonymity, the large number of poor people, the street culture, the drugs, etc.

We can also probably never completely eradicate rape. We can probably never completely eradicate war. Does that mean we shouldn't try, or we should just take the existence of all those things for granted? I don't think so...

Ninapendamaishi,

what you did above to counter the journal article I posted was to post two abstracts by single authors claiming to find "problems in the methodology" of previous studies done on the matter. But since I could only access the abstracts, not the studies themselves, I could not see what "problems" they were talking about. Have you read the articles themselves, so you can explain the problems in methodologies here?

Two of the links you posted are from the same source: Melissa Farley. The statistics you cite are from a study she (and a co-author) did in which they interviewed 130 women who had been arrested for street prostitution in San Francisco. The other article you linked is NOT about a journal article. It is about a book that Farley wrote after "studying" the legal brothels. The book focuses on the brothel's living conditions. Although Farley mentions a handful of anecdotal stories of violence in the brothels, she does not seem to have conducted (or at least does not write about) any sort of survey or statistical analysis on the subject.

The other article you linked actually discusses how law enforcement deals with prostitutes! And how sex workers are not protected from violence by the police.

As for the abstracts I linked, yes I have read the entire texts. Here is a link to one of them:

http://vegaspundit.typepad.com/vegas_pundit/files/VAW-1.pdf

I do not think the other is available free on-line. The criticism of Farley's (and others) methodology includes only sampling street prostitutes (not including other types of sex workers), not including a comparison group of non-prostitutes, using biased language in surveys, and the bias of the researchers. For example, Farley is a well-known anti-prostitution activist.

In addition, if you look carefully at the statistics you cite, OVER HALF of the violence these women report "since entering prostitution" is NOT as a result of their work in the sex industry. Rather it is at the hands of their personal romantic partners

My point remains that MAKING IT LEGAL MAKES IT PHYSICALLY SAFER! Prostitution is often denounced by (misleading) statistics on the physical dangers sex workers face. But a lot of that danger is CAUSED by illegality. It only makes logical sense (and statistics support) that something done in the open would be safer than something that must be hidden! Women who can work openly have access to social and legal services that those hiding in the shadows do not.

It's not her that had to have sex for money. It's the poor girls she abused. So please, save your sympathy for her former employees whose lives are ruined, not the evil person who ruined them.

Why do you have so much trouble seeing the women who worked for Palfrey as competent adults who could make decisions about what to do with their own bodies? Unfortunately, many prostitutes do face threats and coercion. But there is NO evidence that occurred in this case. All of these women were over 18, many of them had advanced degrees (including one woman who had a PhD!). Maybe prostitution is not a free choice for some, but why can't it be for these women?

Of course one could argue that paid labor is never a completely free choice. I work because I and my family need to eat. It isn’t a choice I made freely in a vacuum – it is a choice I made given the realities of life.

IVY! "chose", are you serious? and ANALOG2000- I think your "research" is flawed. at any rate: just because you feel that these women were not under coercion, does not mean that, in general, prostitution is a victimless crime. the exception does not make the rule. oh, and there is overwhelming evidence that things are not all fine in Nevada. you know, peer-reviewed, journal-article evidence. no, I will not hunt it down for you.

"The criticism of Farley's (and others) methodology includes only sampling street prostitutes (not including other types of sex workers), not including a comparison group of non-prostitutes, using biased language in surveys, and the bias of the researchers."

The last two factors there are present in /every study/ to some degree. The other factors wouldn't invalidate the particular statistics, it's just a complaint that she didn't include more data.

"In addition, if you look carefully at the statistics you cite, OVER HALF of the violence these women report "since entering prostitution" is NOT as a result of their work in the sex industry. Rather it is at the hands of their personal romantic partners"

I know violence like that happens too. Whether or not it's right, a lot of men feel that women who work as prostitutes don't deserve basic human rights. Even w/o the intimate partner violence, there's a lot of violence against prostitutes.

Okay. So Farley is against prostitution. She has also spent a lot more time talking to prostitutes than I would guess /you/ have, and that those professors at the university complaining they couldn't get funding to study the issue have. Don't you think that if everything was hunky-dory with the prostitutes she talked to, that might affect her stance?

What you have, from what you've posted, are a few individuals' words against a few others', not conclusive evidence that legal prostitution works swimmingly...

I know plenty of women who chose to be prostitutes, just as I myself went into it willingly and on my own. I wasn't coerced, and wasn't even desperate for money. I quit my job as an administrative assistant because I made more in a day than I did in a week at my crummy office job. I slept with hundreds of men, and only felt degraded by a dozen or so. What was degrading was working in an office for 40 hours a week, answering to an asshole of a boss (who looked down on me and treated me like dirt) while barely making ends meet.

Most of the johns I met were decent guys who treated me with respect (whether they actually respected me, I can't say, but they were well mannered enough to at least act as though they did). Some of the nicest men I've ever met, I met while I was in the business, including my husband. He is one of the kindest men I've ever met, and I never would have met him had I not been in the business.

There are plenty of other shy, lonely men who have a hard time finding women to date, and they're willing to pay for sex from a woman willing to sell it to them. I find it very offensive when you guys talk about putting johns in jail. They (as a whole) are totally undeserving of your vitriol. Rather than waste time and resources arresting "johns," they should just focus on going after men who rape and otherwise assault women. The most effective way to do that (as far as sex workers go) would be to decriminalize prostitution so that women would come forward when attacked.

Many women willingly go into sex careers. Look around the web and you can't help but to run across women posing for a camera in pop up ads. The money is good and they do it of their own free will.

As for prostitution. There is a guy who shows up on TV from time to time and he says that most men pay for sex. Some just don't do it as a direct transaction. He says that paying for a date is really just an indirect way of paying for sex. I think that makes perfect sense.

"I know plenty of women who chose to be prostitutes, just as I myself went into it willingly and on my own. I wasn't coerced, and wasn't even desperate for money. I quit my job as an administrative assistant because I made more in a day than I did in a week at my crummy office job. I slept with hundreds of men, and only felt degraded by a dozen or so. What was degrading was working in an office for 40 hours a week, answering to an asshole of a boss (who looked down on me and treated me like dirt) while barely making ends meet. "

That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say we need to create more attractive job opportunities, actually. I'm well aware it's hard to make ends meet on a minimum wage or near minimum wage job, and that the working conditions are often crummy, and that prostitution pays much, much more.

What I'm suggesting is that minimum wage should be higher, there should be more govt programs to help out low-income people to always have basic necessities, workers should be treated better at their jobs, there should be more jobs available, etc. It /is/ possible to improve the market that way, it all goes back to public policy.

"As for prostitution. There is a guy who shows up on TV from time to time and he says that most men pay for sex. Some just don't do it as a direct transaction. He says that paying for a date is really just an indirect way of paying for sex. I think that makes perfect sense. "

Well, that's certainly an argument many non-feminist men make. But I think it's crap.

What if the woman pays for the date? What if they go dutch? Many women (myself included) want to have sex for reasons having nothing to do with economic transaction, but rather because you /like the person/, they turn you on, etc.

"Many women willingly go into sex careers. Look around the web and you can't help but to run across women posing for a camera in pop up ads. The money is good and they do it of their own free will."

There are also a lot of women doing porn on the internet who /aren't/ doing it of their own free will, FYI, b/c the internet is so unregulated. But for the ones who are, like web cam girls, sure. It's a lot less dangerous to be a webcam girl, I imagine, than to be a prostitute. I'm not saying all forms of sex work should be illegal...

"The most effective way to do that (as far as sex workers go) would be to decriminalize prostitution so that women would come forward when attacked."

I mean in theory, this seems right. But do you really think that would happen. As it is, the majority of women who are /not/ sex workers and who are attacked will not come forward... and even when they do, it's extraordinarily hard to get a conviction, due to the evidence thing being so fishy. (And the men usually argue "yes, we had sex, but it was consensual") I would imagine this would be even moreso the case with prostitutes. Not saying it's right, just feel like realistically that is what would happen.

"What if the woman pays for the date?"

Then the man becomes the prostitute. No shame either way.

"What if they go dutch? "

Then I guess his logic wouldn't apply in those cases but you can't claim that his logic is 100% inaccurate. Many people (male and female) go on a date hoping it will end in sex. Like it or not.

Comparing prostitution to dating on the basis of money is a valid comparison in my opinion.

"Then I guess his logic wouldn't apply in those cases but you can't claim that his logic is 100% inaccurate. Many people (male and female) go on a date hoping it will end in sex. Like it or not. "

Why would I not like that they're hoping it will end in sex? My point is that it's not usually like one person is doing it mainly for the sex, and the other person is doing it mainly for the money. It's usually like they're both wanting to get to know each other and have sex if they like each other.

I was so glad to hear a mainstream NPR host -- Kojo Nnamdi -- and regular commentator Johnetta Rose Barras say that there should not be prosecution for the kind of crimes Palfrey committed. They said it as though that position was not controversial. I was surprised.