". . . they didn't get the message that women wear their clothes for comfort and fashion, not someone else's fancy."

Ah, in your world. Sadly, there is a multi-billion dollar fashion industry that is thriving and does not agree with your assertion.

I read this an hour ago and could not believe my eyes.

Thanks for the breakdown of the many problematic areas of this article.

What is wrong with the NYT? Seriously, I live in Atlanta right now, and it is too hot for slacks in the summer. So, shorts aren't professional and slacks are too hot - I must be vying for some manly attention.

We gotta start campaigning to get more men to wear skirts. Pants are for boys and skirts are for girls - thats just passe.

That article is nauseating and, yes, it does discourage me from wearing a dress.

Whenever I wear a skirt or dress or anything else stereotypically feminine, I get the "elevator eyes"* from men which only makes me more uncomfortable. Wearing a dress, for me, is like being on display more than I usually am as a woman and I hate it.

*elevator eyes: looking up and down and stopping on specific floors, if you know what I mean.

What is with the crazy dresses articles today?

Check out the top headline on my local paper today: "Hemlines doing their part for the economy: Tough times call for short skirts"

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/360526_shortskirts25.html

Ugh.

I have that dress! And the article is creepy.

Ugh, because all my wardrobe choices should be for the benefit of others. It's not like my clothes ought to reflect utility or my personal comfort. I like wearing skirts and dresses in the spring to celebrate the warm weather but now I think I'll stick to my jeans, thank you very much.

I also like how they describe pants as "a useful wardrobe default for the woman in business." I know the only time I wear pants is to work! And it's not like my university's career center didn't give me a bunch of information about how skirts are much more professional, anyway.

gah. I wear my dresses for comfort. In the winter I wear long skirts made of heavy materials plus sweaters. Sometimes I do wear pants, but the dresses are just comfier on my body type. I certainly do not wear them so that some random man can consider me a decoration on the freakin' landscape. >:P

gah. I wear my dresses for comfort. In the winter I wear long skirts made of heavy materials plus sweaters. Sometimes I do wear pants, but the dresses are just comfier on my body type. I certainly do not wear them so that some random man can consider me a decoration on the freakin' landscape. >:P

I was just thinking this morning how nice it is that I will be able to eat my lunch outside again during my lunch hour...and then I was thinking about this one guy who repeatedly harassed me last year while I ate my lunch outside...It makes me so mad that a simple pleasure like eating lunch outside comes with the caveat of harassment. And it pisses me off even more that times would legitimize the attitude of treating women like objects rather than like people.

Sometimes I like being on display. Sometimes I dress consciously knowing the attention I get will be the sleazy kind along with stares from guys I'd like to attract.

But, dresses and skirts are also comfortable. And it's insane that this guy is acting like women should do it for men's benefit.

And I totally like me men in skirts too, when they have nice legs.

Women are not decorations. Women are not decorations. Women are not decorations. Women are not decorations. Women are not decorations. Women are not decorations. Women are not decorations. Women are not decorations.

Aaaaanyway! What decade is this asshat living in? It sounds like the notion of "career-women" is really novel to him.
In *my* world, pants are the default for most women, not skirts or dresses.

i just threw up in my mouth a little.

there are so many things wrong with this i don't even know where to start. "women are not decoration"--amen, sarahMC.

i just know that it makes me want to wear pants all summer.

also, this little gem was nice:
Certainly it’s much more efficient. “Instead of spending days thinking about your wardrobe,� she said, “you can concentrate on who you’re voting for for president.�

is this woman mentally challenged? how is picking out which dress to wear any less work than picking out which pair of pants? further, in my case i'm pretty sure the jeans, t-shirt, and chuck taylors i wear to work 90% of the time is more efficient than if i had to shave my legs and figure out what shoes and bag go with a particular dress.

Stuff like this makes my head hurt. I've just spent all afternoon emailing back and forth with a DJ, who yesterday on his show was urging a male caller to honk at good looking women on the street.

I told him he was encouraging aggressive behavior to women and after all the going back and forth on the issue what he finally fell back on was, "honking your horn isn't harassment. If it was, it would be against the law to do so. It's very simple."

Would be nice to put this guy in a short dress with shaved legs and let men eye him up and honk all afternoon and see how he feels about it then. Grrrr.

Me. My life with my responsibilities and duties. My decisions how to handle them. My decisions to wear whatever I fancy. I can accept fashion critique - life wouldn't be fun if all of us had the same taste and opinion. Sleazies are a big no-no for me.

Apart from any gender matter, where's basic politesse of live and let live?

@ Riley

I agree with the dress=simple equation. It's a one step outfit, so it's easier.

Also this is nauseating. I like how the slide-show of photos is called "I enjoy being agirl".

Also they get an A++ for only having photos of petite young women.

@ Riley

I agree with the dress=simple equation. It's a one step outfit, so it's easier.

Also this is nauseating. I like how the slide-show of photos is called "I enjoy being agirl".

Also they get an A++ for only having photos of petite young women.

There are many things wrong with the NYT article that I totally agree are stupid and wrong and sexist. However I have one beef with Vanessa's argument.

"I guess they didn't get the message that women wear their clothes for comfort and fashion, not someone else's fancy. "

Fashion IS someone else's fancy. You should be free from harassment, but people will look at other, attractively dressed, people. Looking isn't a crime.
This man's article could be sexual harassment for every woman in a dress he's ever admired, though, and that is a crime. You should not "expect" catcalls just for dressing attractively (the whole "you act like a whore and people will treat you like it" shit women hear all the time). You will be looked at though. I don't know what the line is?... If you notice its harassment and if you don't its not?
Catcallers and this fellow's ilk should all have something terrible done to them.

I was walking around downtown Manhattan around lunch yesterday and it was so hot that I was thinking about buying a bunch of dresses for the season.

I will probably still do that, but now there's going to be something heavy about it. And that makes me so angry. I'm going to be saying, "well fuck them. It's my choice to wear dresses for heat relief" in my head, but I'll still feel like I'm giving in.

: (

I'm wearing a dress right now and I wore it because I love how I feel about my body when I'm wearing it, not because I feel the need to look like window dressing or because I'm too feminine for manly pants. Although this attitude doesn't surprise me much, as it seems to go hand in hand with the "bigger breasts in low-cut top = inherently more slutty" bullshit I end up dealing with on frequent basis, it is disgusting to see it printed in the NYT. The NYT gets held up over and over in my journalism classes as the paragon of excellence in reporting and top-class journalism, but I've seen article after article prove this wrong. Disgusting. I think I'll be writing them an angry letter.

I love dresses - they're easy and there's that whole airflow thing when its hot out that makes it ever so much more comfortable.

This guy is a douchebag. The dress thing and guys is definitely a cultural construct - if you go to places where skirts are worn all the time, pants get the most hoots and hollers.

He just wants to look at women in different clothes. Which, we are not put on this earth to be looked at by him, so he can go suck it.

it may just be me - but when i wear a skirt or dress, i'm really doing it for me because i'll admit, i do like to dress up and feel pretty (and of course, it's hot, what girl wants to wear pants in 80 degree weather?). if i ever dress up for someone else, it's usually just because I have work and I want to look presentable, and i do enjoy getting compliments on what i wear from friends or coworkers. i think the difference, however, when men stare at your butt, or look you up and down - they are not complimenting you or thinking how fashionable you are. they are thinking about your body, they're thinking sex, they're imagining you naked, all which are degrading and objectify women. if their stares were really about fashion all the time, then men would be out with a copy of Vogue sitting and watching the women pass by.

That's awful, Camryn!

Men think the Male Gaze is just so flattering and whimsical and complimentary.
It's a different story when THEY'RE subjected to it, isn't it?

Even if a woman is dressing to impress on a particular day or night, what makes choads like this guy think she wants attention from them?

and i agree with kirjava , the problem with articles like this is it makes it okay for men to say women who wear skirts or low cut tops are sluts, and girls who wear dresses are "asking" to be checked out, or stared at. street harassment and cat-calling is not taken seriously enough, especially since it is just the sort of behavior that further escalates into assault. when we become mere ornaments for men to feast their eyes upon, then we simply become objects that they feel they can put their hands on.

irishgirl--it's only simpler if you know exactly what all you're going to wear WITH the dress. if you wear dresses all the time and have a large variety of coordinating shoes that go with most of your dresses, then maybe it's simpler. like i said, the reverse is true for me because most of the dresses i own don't go with the shoes i wear most of the time. for me, it is much easier to wear pants because i know precisely which ones and just grab ANY t-shirt since they all go with jeans and tennis shoes and i'm done.

i'm not knocking dresses or anything and i do like wearing them sometimes, but pretending it's somehow AUTOMATICALLY more efficient for every woman is retarded and doesn't justify wearing dresses so the poor menz can have some eye candy in any way.

also, i find dresses require way more consciousness about one's movements--how you sit, how you get in and out of a car, what if it's windy, etc.

ew.. that was sickly, not only do i not want to wear a dress ever again -- i want to become a butch lesbian.

I love wearing dresses-- it makes me think of spring and summer and, yes, being girly, which at 4'10" I'm never going to really escape anyway. And sometimes I wear them because I know I look pretty and will get compliments-- but usually from other women! I don't really notice that men stare at me any more or less when I wear a dress, but I get a lot more compliments from other girls, which usually means its a cuter outfit anyway. Something like this article wouldn't influence my decision on whether to wear or not wear a dress; I think it's a little silly to base your decisions on that. If you like dresses, wear them, if not, don't!

I saw that article in the new york times earlier today and I hate that the author thinks women should wear dresses to please men. I stopped reading after the reference to "Girls in Their Summer Dresses," but it sounds like it gets worse from there. I usually wear jeans, but when I wear dresses it's not because I want to be treated like an object and leered at while I walk outside on a sunny day. Like SarahMC said, women are not decorations.

Also, I agree with rileystclair that the quote about dresses being more efficient is ridiculous. I can see how dresses can make choosing clothes simpler, but just because I wear pants doesn't mean I spend my days thinking about clothes instead of politics. Comments like that shouldn't be used to justify the author's point that women should be treated like decorative objects.

Ugh, reminds me about all the times I've been cat-called and sleazily hit on for wearing a witch's costume (a dress with hat and broom). Really, I tried to read the original article, but couldn't for fear of vomitting! The whole article reaks with statements reducing women to decorations.

@sivang

I think the reaction is based more on the image the author is creating of men constantly staring obsessively at women because of their cute clothes.

Like the Citizen Kane reference of some dude taking the idealized image of a woman with her back turned and keeping it for life.

When you really think about it it's kind of disturbing.

I don't think it's going to impact my clothing choices, but it is another reminder of what a messed up culture we have.

anyway, i work in a heavy catcalling area. it doesn't matter what we wear; we get yelled at/honked at/leered at/whistled at regardless. the whole dresses as a pleasing backdrop for men just gets way too close to the whole "she had a short skirt on, your honor--she was asking for it!" territory. men can't blame their inappropriate behavior, such as catcalling, on a woman's outfit.

I just wanted to say this: My fashion is for MY fancy. My purple hair, boots, dresses, ripped jeans, etc etc. It's all for me, and I call it fashion. So what if there is a "fashion industry" that makes a bazillion dollars a year? So what if Fashion is suppose to be someone else's fancy? That all ends the moment I put the clothes I choose on my own body!

Yeah, not really adding to the discussion there, I know. :D

I'm with Riley on dress/= simple. Now that it's nice out, I'm continually wondering if I could get away with wearing a skirt. And then I think about how I'll have to walk a mile to school with a full backpack... I'm fully convinced that there's no pair of shoes in the world that will look cute with a skirt but won't become horrible uncomfortable after a half-mile uphill.

I think it's obvious, however, that this man doesn't realize that catcalling makes women uncomfortable because otherwise he wouldn't wonder why dresses are unpopular in NYC.

Fashion = Men's Fancy

Look at who runs the industry...

Nevertheless, criticizing a women's choice of dress because it gives her a diminished chance of getting in your pants is profoundly egocentric.

@ Vodalus and Riley

Sandals are awesomely versatile (if you work someplace where you can get away with that). And if you don't mind showing your feet.

But then, I guess this isn't the place to discuss this!

This brings up an interesting and ongoing discussion between myself and my fiance, who has recently returned from a deployment in the Persian Gulf (he's in the Navy) with many new experiences and perspectives and thoughts and feelings including a deep respect for Middle Eastern culture. Not the terrorist kind the media feeds us, but the everyday hospitality kinds of things. Beyond that, he found (men and) women saying they (the women) cover themselves up in order to help their brethren from having sinful thoughts. We both strongly agree that should be a choice and they should not be forced. Plus you gotta take into account the elephant in the room- the underlying (and widely accepted) notion that men's desires (reptilian brain, blah blah blah) are beyond their control and that it's our responsibility to "help" them with that.

This guy's thinking is exactly why every damn spring I fret and worry about the coming hot months. I wear less layers, I can't wear my safety blanket that is a long fleece jacket, and I feel utterly uncomfortable in pants that aren't too big for me (so forget dresses!). Every single day that it is warm outside I get harassed because of my body. In ok days, I can handle it and shake it off. On bad days this shit actually makes me a prisoner in my own home and I don't go out. If I do go out, sometimes I feel so exposed and vulnerable that I force myself back into my sanctuary because of that type of attention. I go through this every year when the weather gets warmer. While I see people being so happy and excited to wear dresses and shorts, I actually get *scared*. I shouldn't be - but I do. Perhaps I am too emotionally weak, perhaps I've had one too many men demand sex from me, seen one too many instances when it escalated to groping. And the worst part for me is that no matter how hard I try to not bring any attention to myself, I often fail at that.

There has been a 20 year war in my head that started before I was even ten where part of me wants to accept me wholly and the other part struggles to hate everything about my body because of all this negative attention. Attention that this asshole thinks every man is privileged to.

It is that kind of thinking that shows how men feel they have every right to stare and comment and harass and control our bodies, and women feel like they need that affirmation to feel good about themselves. Sorry for the long rant, but this is obviously something that strikes a deep nerve with me. And no, in my opinion, this article is not about dresses; it's about skin. But that's my take.

1) i hope some of these comments made their way to letters@nytimes.com as letters to the editors and
2) This is the part that infuriated me the most!! ..."Certainly it’s [donning a dress] much more efficient. “Instead of spending days thinking about your wardrobe,� she said, “you can concentrate on who you’re voting for for president.� Please, like it is really an either or situation. Hmmm...I really can't decide what to wear today, guess I will think about the growing schism in the democratic party tomorrow! Ugh.

I agree with you Jem- I try not to draw attention to myself either but I get stares and cat calls every damn day. It's terrible.

And right on to the woman who wrote the repeating sentence: Women Are Not Decoration!!!

As a professional Leering Man(R), yes of course I like revealing dresses -- but only on my GF... when she chooses to wear them. Then, I shall leer away. But not at random strangers on the street.

So what's the deal with having a high-powered straight male fashion writer push articles of clothing on women purely for his own enjoyment? In a supposedly "progessive" newspaper, no less? Was this supposed to be a piece of satire? Because if it was funny, it wasn't "ha-ha" funny.

I think what it DOES show, however, is how many things unfortunately get decided in the fashion world. It is hard to overstate the influence that writers for NYT, Vogue, etc have as they pursue smelly little agendas such as this guy's.

Anyway, I also think this charming fellow would call me "whipped" for only ogling my GF. But on the other hand, I would rightfully take that as a compliment :)

I could never stand dresses or skirts. Ever. And this guy's article, topped with all the anecdotes here, cement my commitment to pants and shorts.

“I guess they didn't get the message that women wear their clothes for comfort and fashion, not someone else's fancy.�

I can’t say I agree with this. Why do so many people wear sweats and a t-shirt (or comparably comfortable, unfashionable clothing) at home, but then dress up nicely when they go out or if other people come over? Maybe Vanessa dresses with no thought given to how others will perceive her, but I think she would be in the minority if that was the case.

Honestly, I'm not offended if men look at me and enjoy my figure. I check out guys all the time -- I check out other women too... "Enjoying" something is a reaction, not a choice.

What is a choice is how to respond to a woman if you find her attractive. You can smile, whistle, smack her ass, say something rude, or pretend not to notice. These are the things men control and that's what they should be accountable for.

The error here is that NYT chose a man to pontificate about trends in women's clothing. That to me says more about male gaze and female objectification than any quote from the article.

But kudos for using some WOC in their photos, at least. :-/

I'm so glad I'm going to have a career that requires a uniform. Or is that dressing for the benefit of others as well?

I live in NH, and our local conservative paper prints just about any letter that they receive. Earlier this week, I read one from some nutjob complaining about women who have lost their femininity. Apparently, it infuriated him that all he saw was women in pants, then went on an on about June Cleaver. Needless to say, I was at my computer in moments, firing off an angry letter in response.
Anyway, I love dresses, I just think they're really cool. I even wear them in the winter over pants. But crap like this makes me wanna put on a mechanic's jumpsuit. No leg glimpses for you, NYT!

in my case i'm pretty sure the jeans, t-shirt, and chuck taylors i wear to work 90% of the time is more efficient than if i had to shave my legs and figure out what shoes and bag go with a particular dress.

Not to mention finding one that works in the first place. It's much easier to combine several garments and come up with something that looks decent on you than it is to find a single garment that manages to do everything you need it to do. In terms of time-efficiency, jeans and t-shirts are the way to go.

You can argue that they shouldn't, but isn't it reasonable to assume that many if not most of the women reading the NY Times fashion section do care about men/others finding them attractive? The article is still creepy, yeah, but I don't think you're really being accurate in making a positive statement that women--and in particular the target audience for this article--don't care at all about that sort of thing.

I haven't worn a dress or skirt in years, because you know what they mean to my size 28 self? Chafing. Period. In order to wear a dress comfortably I have to have some kind of shorts or split slip on underneath it, which has the effect of restricting air flow, not enhancing it. So in addition to all the complaints listed above, equating dresses/skirts with beauty is annoying to me as a plus-size woman.

I can’t say I agree with this. Why do so many people wear sweats and a t-shirt (or comparably comfortable, unfashionable clothing) at home, but then dress up nicely when they go out or if other people come over? Maybe Vanessa dresses with no thought given to how others will perceive her, but I think she would be in the minority if that was the case.

Speaking only for myself, neither really has anything to do with what anyone but me wants to see. At home, I wear what's practical for what I"m doing around the house. If I'm cooking, I certainly am not going to wear my dryclean only black linen dress and let it get splattered with penne all'arrabbiata, nor would I necessarily want to wear it for my non-declawed cat to sit on. When I go out, I wear what I ,like to wear. The one thing I am not thinking about in terms of a goal when I get dressed is male attention. Men finding me attractive is more a hassle than anything else.

That article is disgusting. gross. sexist. UGHHHH

on the note of leering menz, I have been frustrated ALL DAY today because I went to the gym to go swim, and of course there's just old men and creepy men there. This one guy kept staring at me all crazy-creepy and I left right before he tried to get in my lane.

I am sick of stuff like this happening!!!

"You should not 'expect' catcalls just for dressing attractively"

Exactly! You shouldn't have to "expect" insults just for dressing unattractively either.

If another woman and I are both wearing skirts, and someone liked her smooth legs and hates my stubble, he (or she) still has no right to harass *either* of us skirt-wearers for it.

Looks like this skirt fascination is a trend:
http://media.www.diamondbackonline.com/media/storage/paper873/news/2008/04/17/Opinion/Letters.To.The.Editor-3330506.shtml
If men are so desperate to see skirts (and subsequently comment on them) maybe they should wear skirts themselves.

I bet women over a certain weight and/or age aren't invited to the Dress Party.

But fat girls and older women aren't really considered "women," now are they. Just thin, pretty, white ladies.

And there is a difference between following fashion and dressing to attract attention from strange men.

The fact that I'm wearing a flowery, low-cut dress doesn't mean I'm doing it to PLEASE YOU, specifically. Some men really think it's all about them.

Someone should send a link to this thread to the writer of this stupid, stupid piece (maybe entitled Women Are Not Decorations!)

Yet another recent example of why the NYT gets on My. Damn. Nerves.

Vanessa did a nail-on-head treatment of the article, highlighting precisely those bits that contributed to the Male Gaze paradigm of, oh, about the last 3-4,000 years in many cultures around the world. To those who think "hey, it's fun, and it's natural for people to check out the opposite sex"--that is not what this article is suggesting.

The quotes Vanessa correctly highlights could be a case study used in a class on the Panopticon, the Male Gaze, and Western art. Specifically the author's pining for tableaux that suggest that very thing--paintings. Please think about this for a second--except for religious/Biblical figures, the majority of Western art that has portrayed the human figure has portrayed the female human figure. The public at large--all ethnic gruops, genders, etc--is primed to watch "The Female" who, no matter how active she appears in a picture, is still in a picture, surrounded by a frame, for our viewing pleasure.

I, too, like to look at women, because I find women's bodies of all shapes and colors interesting, beautiful, and pleasing to look on. Obviously, since I'm hetero, it doesn't have to do with sex. But I cannot conceive of how this author felt justified in unleashing in print a ream of opinions on The Female as receptable of his Gaze.

On a personal note, I don't wear dresses or skirts because I find them uncomfortable. I couldn't live in a world in which trousers and jeans were not options--and I've tried, actually (in my parents' homeland, men and women alike are wont to wear dress and skirt-like garments).

But even on special occasions, I despise shaving my legs and people in this country (U.S.) among others apparently cannot look at women's hair without total revulsion and horror. My significant other, like me, likes the tactile quality of the hair, as do I, and I don't think I would (could?) be with someone who didn't.

What's funny is that all other appearences--lipstick, jewlery, etc--indicate to the observer that I'm completely in line with the dominant cultural norms for hair removal. In fact, even my close friends would be surprised to learn I don't shave. Imagine their astonishment to learn I prefer the feel of a hairy--NOT stubbly, which is satanic-- leg to a smooth one!

I'd say the best thing, aside from Erica Bana, about seeing Troy was all the men ins skirts, or whatever they called them. That was very nice and I say men should start wearing skirts. First, they'll have to don the panty hose to make their legs look smooth and then we'll take the hose away so they have to shave. :)

Sigh... I just got my first "real" job and read this right after spending five hours at the mall for a professional wardrobe overhaul. I live in Florida, and my internship at a newspaper will take me outside, but I'll still have to look professional, so pants are really not the best option. Even though I'm a jeans and t-shirt girl usually, I just bought a couple of skirts to see me through. Perhaps if this author was allowed to wear a skirt, the air flow to his legs would put him in a better mood and he wouldn't have to feel so sorry for himself that he needs the ego boost of leering at strangers.

I hate writing letters to the Times - I don't feel like making sure I'm writing in a way that will look good on the movement if it's printed.

What I do like is writing authors to let them know directly what I think.

If you go to this link theres a form to send a note to the author.
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/t/guy_trebay/index.html?inline=nyt-per

Let 'em look. WTF would I even care? I enjoy my dresses. As long as I enjoy them, I could give a hoot about whether or not the guy who wrote this likes them or not.

This article is absolutely sickening. Besides the fact that it's completely sexist, it's just plain bad writing!

I really don't think people realize how offensive catcalls and things are. Everytime I go to the public library (whether I'm wearing jeans or a skirt or whatever), which is right across the street from my apartment, men who are loitering around the entrance shout all kinds of sexual comments and threats at me that make me feel extremely uncomfortable and unsafe. It's gotten to the point where I try to make sure that my fiance is with me when I go there. It's just awful. I should be able to go to the library without feeling threatened and objectified. Ugh.

To be sure, I find nothing wrong with looking because I look a lot. At everyone. But this guy's whining leads right into the leering and harassment that we women deal with too fucking often. And SarahMC you are spot on - he absolutely does not mean women in general but only those that look like the models. That's a no brainer. It's what I mean when I said this was really about skin, and how much of it a "real woman" - that is, one who is feminine - exposes for all men's sexualized viewing pleasure.

Yoshimi, I see a lot of business pant suits...I don't get why you can't wear one. Then again, I am very naive about jobs that actually require skirts.

And Nichole, good for you. I wish I had that attitude. The older I get, the more women with these attitudes rub off on me - count me as one of those who actually wants to age!

"isn't it reasonable to assume that many if not most of the women reading the NY Times fashion section do care about men/others finding them attractive?" (rocket-)

No, rocket, it's not reasonable to assume every girl wearing a skirt/dress is doing so because she is looking for a response from another person. The default should be that WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO WEAR WHATEVER WE WANT WITH THE EXPECTATION THAT WE WILL BE RESPECTED AND LEFT ALONE.

Your suggestion that any women interested in fashion, or that "dresses up" is out "looking for some response", is insulting.

And no, I don't give a damn what other people think of my appearance, and I certainly don't want men calling at me from across the street to tell me what they think of my body. I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT. In other words, it's my body, leave it the hell alone, it's none of your business! (and I shouldn't even have to say that.)

I stopped wearing dresses years ago because of asshole men commenting on my appearance. For the men it's never about "the fashion" it's always about power, and that's why men "cat call", "hiss", "comment" etc. It's about "putting women in their place" and reducing our bodies to nothing more than a tool for male enjoyment.

Anyone have any successful ways of dealing with "hissers"??? As of now, I've not found a way to deal with them other than to change the way I dress, which I find frustrating, that I am letting a few assholes influence the way I dress. Conundrum.

"When the warm weather comes, I always dread to go outside when I wear a dress for the first time and find men cat-call, whistle and - what's worst for me - stare me down as I walk past them. While I should be happy that the sun is finally out and I can wear lighter clothes again, the spring seems to bring the neighborhood sleazies out of hibernation."

Can we have a talk about street harrassment, especially since spring has sprung and it's walk-with-your-head-down season for so many of us?

I'm certainly not of the persuasion that street harassment happens because women are wearing certain types of clothing. That sounds an awful lot like the "she's inviting it by what she wears" argument that we get so often.

I think it's because more people are outside. Period. People in their cars have the windows open, people are walking on the streets rather than driving, and that makes it a lot easier and more inviting for assholes to harrass a woman REGARDLESS OF WHAT SHE'S WEARING.

Can we not perpetuate myths of "it's due to what she wears" on a feminist site?

Okay, peace!

"Anyone have any successful ways of dealing with "hissers"??? "

I bark. Really.

Ironically, I wear dresses over jeans for the sole purpose of easing my paranoia over people seeing my skivvies when I bend down.

Anyone have any successful ways of dealing with "hissers"??? As of now, I've not found a way to deal with them other than to change the way I dress, which I find frustrating, that I am letting a few assholes influence the way I dress. Conundrum.

Well, my own method of dealing with street harassers, primarily those of what I have come to call the Mobile Asshole Corps, is to swear at them in (Napoletano) Italian. You can pack a lot more stank into Napoletano than you can into English. I wish I could say I had a way of dealing with the pedestrian variety, but I'm honestly a bit too scared of guys like that when they're not driving away from me at 60 kmh to say much of anything.

I have to say that this article didn't bother me one bit... being the girly-girl that I am (I know, I'm the bane of all feminists everywhere), it hit a nostalgic note. As noname said, I have seen too many women wear sweats at home, and then spend hours fretting over what to wear out to believe the arguement made about people not dressing for others. I think that the writer was aiming for a certain nostalgia that is easily misconstrued.

I have to say that I love my dresses. I love my long dresses and skirts because they're cool on hot days, and I love my shorter dresses and skirts because they have their place in my wardrobe for work, and for at-home time. I don't care who cat-calls or harasses me, I know that if I want to dress up and feel feminine, or vamp it up and be a femme fatale, I'm not giving some MAN's comments or "preference" to see me in feminine clothing the time of day. I'm too busy with my own life and my own goals to care what some construction worker whistles out of a window-- how many of the people that cat-call on the streets do you ever see again?

Furthermore, IF I needed to, I could kick just about any man's ass... with or without my four inch tall heels... I've done it before, and I'll do it again.

I feel like I'm a little late to the party but I have to comment on this one. This actually just happened to me today, a few hours ago. I wore a knee length black skirt for the first time in a long time with my 10-eye Docs and a camisole top to go out to dinner with my boyfriend. Our neighbors were having a party in the parking lot for whatever reason and when we got home this guy says about me, intentionally loudly enough for me to hear, "I would bang the hell out of that bitch." It made me feel absolutely wretched. And now I read this post and I don't even have the energy to be mad. It's just so depressing.

And why's it gotta be "that bitch" on top of everything else? It's like insult to injury.

No, rocket, it's not reasonable to assume every girl wearing a skirt/dress is doing so because she is looking for a response from another person. The default should be that WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO WEAR WHATEVER WE WANT WITH THE EXPECTATION THAT WE WILL BE RESPECTED AND LEFT ALONE.

Did you read what I posted? I didn't say that every woman in a dress is looking for attention, I said that--contra the prevailing sentiment here--the target audience for the NY Times fashion section probably does care what others think of their appearance, and that the situation is marginally more complicated than women dress for comfort, NYT = sexist.

Did you read what I posted? I didn't say that every woman in a dress is looking for attention, I said that--contra the prevailing sentiment here--the target audience for the NY Times fashion section probably does care what others think of their appearance, and that the situation is marginally more complicated than women dress for comfort, NYT = sexist.

Well, it isn't just the content of the article that strikes me as sexist. It's the fact that the person they chose to extol the virtues of dresses has apparently plenty of experience leering at women in dresses but probably none wearing them, when there are plenty of people who actually have worn dresses in their daily life who would be perfectly qualified to write on the subject.

As someone originally from Washington, D.C., I have to comment about claims that cat-called women somehow asked for it. I can't recall how old the article is, but there was a huge article in the Washington Post specifically discrediting this idea by mostly following one woman, who even got cat-called in the winter while wearing a puffy coat. The article also points out cases such as a grandmother being whistled at. I remember as a 16-yr-old in a t-shirt and shorts (was at a fencing camp)being cat-called by some guys in a car, who I blown off. When they then stopped their car, I freaked and ran into the nearest building. This was at 8:30 pm or something.

I find the dress is the easiest thing to wear. I also have breast and hip measurements within an inch of each other, so they fit me well. My sister has smaller breasts and larger hips and can never find dresses that don't need alterations. I, on the other hand, am five feet tall with a 26-inch inseam, so I can never buy a pair of pants that don't have to be altered. I can get away with jeans that are 28 inches because I can wear them with boots, but all work pants must be hemmed. I'd rather buy a petite dress that I can wear off the rack than pants that I have to pay $15 to have the cuffs done and wait a week. Double that if it's a suit because I'll have to have the sleeves done too. With a dress I can probably get away with just pushing the sleeve up to my wrist, or a 3/4 sleeve is a full sleeve on me.

I often wear a skirt to go out with my girlfriend because she tells me she likes the way I look in them, but she never complains if I wear jeans either. I certainly don't dress for guys on the street. In fact, other than to work, unless I am with her, I don't wear skirts or dresses because I don't want the attention. I feel safer with her. She's rather diminutive herself, but she has a great "don't mess with me" look. I never get hit on or asked if I have a boyfriend when I'm with her, and I do when I'm with platonic female friends.

When I lived in Japan, it was a form of politeness to be well-groomed and dressed nicely in public. It was very soothing to the eye and mind. Previously, I had felt that I should be able to wear whatever I liked and my own comfort was paramount. But when I changed from an "I" mentality to a "we" mentality because that was the mindset of the rural Japanese society in which I lived, I didn't find that changing my dress a little bit so as to blend in better damaged my self-esteem or sense of freedom at all.

The whole premise of this NYTimes article, however, is the opposite. The author is encouraging women to stand out in wearing pretty dresses so that they can be "gazed" at. It's not polite to stare at strangers, nor to interact with strangers against their will when they're in the public square. It's not polite to make your costume so outlandish that people in the public square can't help noticing you either.

Men who bother or stare openly at women in the public square who are just minding their own business and dressing nicely are rude. I think Miss Manners would agree with me.

Reading an article in the NYTimes about how random strangers might stare at me when I wear a dress creeped me out. And the slideshow, titled in the imperative, "Enjoy Being a Girl," offended me too. Those pictures were of women. And maybe they like wearing dresses without thinking of it as helping them fit more snugly into their stereotypical gender role of decorating the world for the amusement of the opposite sex.

“Speaking only for myself, neither really has anything to do with what anyone but me wants to see. At home, I wear what's practical for what I"m doing around the house. If I'm cooking, I certainly am not going to wear my dryclean only black linen dress and let it get splattered with penne all'arrabbiata, nor would I necessarily want to wear it for my non-declawed cat to sit on. When I go out, I wear what I ,like to wear. The one thing I am not thinking about in terms of a goal when I get dressed is male attention. Men finding me attractive is more a hassle than anything else.� – Elise

I didn’t say that you were looking for attention. I said that I think a part of what we like to wear is influenced by how we think others will perceive us. I am not even saying that everyone desires that perception to be positive. If this plays no part in what you choose to wear: congratulations. You are an extremely secure person.

OJD, I truly understand that. Although I am 5'6" my inseam is between 27"&28" and slacks are anathema simply because of that. I find very few that fit without hemming.

So, skirts and dresses are the mainstays of my wardrobe, and either palazzo pants or cropped ones -- neither of which works well at work -- are about the only pants I wear.

I can understand all of us disliking the attitude that we 'are dressing for him/them.' But, to allow him this much time in our heads when we understand exactly what and why he writes this crap and the editors print it? Well, that's kind of a puzzle.

It's what's there allatime and doesn't seem to go away. TBH, I am more outraged by the fashion, perfume and soap ads than by most of the columns I see in the Times & other papers as well.

If we can make a dint in the ads then sure as the world the columns will change as well.

i am a man.

i never honk my horn at women whom i find attractive.

i never catcall. Nor wolf whistle. Nor hubba-hubba. Well, not audibly, at any rate. While mentally i may be acting like the Wolf in a Chuck Jones cartoon, i know how to be respectful.

i do look. Unavoidably, that is a "male gaze," though hopefully not "THE Male Gaze." But my elevator, though it may pause here and there, goes all the way to the top.

The NYT article was indeed stupid and sexist.

I think I liked your post RadFem, but I disagree with this:
"It's not polite to make your costume so outlandish that people in the public square can't help noticing you either."

I actually don't like skirts and dresses. Because I'm pudgy, they make my thighs rub together!

Anyway, "looking" is very different from "ogling" and "gawking." Obviously no one is arguing that men "cannot look." But is it really that hard to "look" while not making obnoxiously obvious that you're looking, or not "looking" in a way that suggests the woman is a piece of meat? It's not that hard to be respectful, guys.

This kind of reminds me of this Onion article: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28017
I know it's somewhat classist, but after having worked three summers in a metal-parts factory surrounded by male welders, it still makes me laugh.

"Anyway, "looking" is very different from "ogling" and "gawking." "

Ugh exactly!!!! A glance, whatever. Staring at me to make me feel uncomfortable so I have to leave wherever I am, is UNACCEPTABLE.

This piece was gag-inducing I wrote a letter to the editor; let's hope a lot of people did. I felt like I was in an awful time warp reading it, and it made me question, yet again, WTF is wrong with NYT!?!? Even if the creepy sexism didn't raise any flags (or lunches) among the editors (and again, WTF?), how does such a backwards looking piece count as "fashion & style"?

Anyone have any successful ways of dealing with "hissers"??? As of now, I've not found a way to deal with them other than to change the way I dress, which I find frustrating, that I am letting a few assholes influence the way I dress. Conundrum.

Answer: Have you ever asked your mother or your sister how much they enjoy men hissing at them before? You should.

Some variation of that often does wonders.

I am amazing to when i read about women complaining about the unsolicited approval they get from men when they are seen in public.

I think this discussion begs the question of what is worse: to be complimented impolitely on one's appearance or to not recieve any such sentiments at all?

I suppose if men were not an important part of one's sex life I would see where such attention would be completely unwelcome and rendered unacceptable under any circumstances. On the other hand, If women based thier own self confidence upon thier ability to attract men, or if they had plans to attract men at some point in thier life, I can see how the absence of any such attention could be problematic, perhaps leading to depression and low self esteem.

Needless to say, I see little that benefits the feminist movement by berating, admonishing, and crucifying some man for making an attempt at expressing pride in his own sexuality.

I am amazing to when i read about women complaining about the unsolicited approval they get from men when they are seen in public.

I think this discussion begs the question of what is worse: to be complimented impolitely on one's appearance or to not recieve any such sentiments at all?

I suppose if men were not an important part of one's sex life I would see where such attention would be completely unwelcome and rendered unacceptable under any circumstances. On the other hand, If women based thier own self confidence upon thier ability to attract men, or if they had plans to attract men at some point in thier life, I can see how the absence of any such attention could be problematic, perhaps leading to depression and low self esteem.

Needless to say, I see little that benefits the feminist movement by berating, admonishing, and crucifying some man for making an attempt at expressing pride in his own sexuality.

I understand the writer's frustration with objectification, but is it necessarily wrong for a heterosexual man to enjoy the site of a female body as it is veiled in a dress?

So long as a man is not objectifying women only, but rather appreciating what he sees and respecting a woman's boundaries, can't we ... well ... all get along? Or should I avert my eyes at the sight of attractive women in dresses and feel ashamed for enjoying the unintended images I do take in?

In other words, isn't there an ocean's worth of middle ground here that the author's essentially draining?

PhillyJourno: No, it's not wrong. I like to look at men. Hell, I like men in kilts, especially. I don't pretend otherwise. But I don't leer or ogle or stare. That's impolite. This is really not that hard. Glances, people. The sort you give to everyone on the streets.

And you should remember, there's a long history of women being valued only inasmuch as they please the male eye, and of sexual violence against women, and of women being reduced to their private bits. Divorced from all of this, a catcall _might_ be complimentary (although I'd still think it annoying), but you can't divorce it from what women still have to deal with. All a catcall does for the vast majority of women is remind us that we are still seen as primarily objects of men's pleasure. That's no freaking compliment.

Thanks Random. I could understand why leering or catcalling might be frustrating to experience. This is why I called for that middle ground, where we can all appreciate how what we see pleases us, without objectifying it. The problem, of course, is objectification, and staying on the "right" side of it. When does a look become a stare, become a leer become a sexual response become an ignorance of significance-other-than-as-sexual-object? And so much of this is involuntary. Awareness, of course, helps.

I have no sympathy for your wandering eye Journo.

Logically we all now that we take in a lot of sights every day. Lots of those sights include strangers on the street of a variety of genders.

It is not ok however, to revel in what you see. To start describing people - in a published article - in terms of how much pleasure you get from looking at their person.

*Women are not decorations*

Kabatas - you can "express pride in your sexuality" without making women feel like shit. And for most of us, no, the absence of whistling and catcalling does not lead to "depression and self esteem". An individual woman's self esteem has very little to do with your unsolicited "compliments", thanks very much. You are not doing anyone any favours by expressing your "approval".

I suggest you scroll up and read Jem's first comment, where she talks about how horrible it makes her feel to be catcalled every day.

I'm sure you get through your day without any "unsolicited approval" from random strangers - let's give women the benefit of the doubt and assume we can too, shall we?

I am amazing to when i read about women complaining about the unsolicited approval they get from men when they are seen in public.

I think this discussion begs the question of what is worse: to be complimented impolitely on one's appearance or to not recieve any such sentiments at all?

The problem is that they aren't compliments at all. It is a form of harrassment that operates to instill fear in women and ensure that we can never feel entirely safe in public space.

irishgirl1983, are you kidding me? It's not okay to revel in what you see? That's ridiculous. I revel in cute little babies, hot men's bodies, and occasionally other women's bodies. All of that is okay because I am aware these people do not exist for my pleasure. Similarly, if a guy revels in my body, that's also fine as long as he knows I'm not there exclusively for his viewing pleasure.

PhillyJourno, to answer your question, the main difference between a polite glance and a leer (at least for me, anyway) is time. If a guy glances over my body once as he walks by, that's fine. In fact, to me some guys are absolutely adorable about it - there's the shy, furtive glance, the appreciative quick up-and-down followed by brief eye contact, the glance out of the corner of his eye.

What is NOT adorable is when guys try to intimidate women with their gaze. The difference is pretty obvious to me - if a guy stares and keeps staring long after I've looked back at him and made it clear his attention is not wanted, or if he looks at me in a way that just feels creepy, well, that's the difference. It sounds like you're aware of it, so I doubt you're a major problem for most women.

And as for all the women here - stop giving a flying fuck what these men say to you! I used to get so caught up in what men said, but one day I just forced myself to stop caring, and now I wear whatever the hell I want and if they say something rude, too damn bad. It's a reflection on them, not me.

I'm a male and I don't wear a dress for exactly the same reason. Ech, all those stares and hoots and hollers from strangers would really get to me.

Similarly, if a guy revels in my body, that's also fine as long as he knows I'm not there exclusively for his viewing pleasure.

I can sign on to that. As a woman I find that I respond to things that I find attractive. I just don't feel the need to call attention to my response, and I would never dream of requiring that the person I find attractive be aware of what's going on. Because, as many have already said, other people don't exist as objects for me to pass judgment on.

I have a body, and my body responds to other bodies, but damn it, if I can control myself then men can too. And the only reason they don't (when they don't) is the unearned privilege they enjoy.

I think this discussion begs the question of what is worse: to be complimented impolitely on one's appearance or to not recieve any such sentiments at all?

But I can tell you from experience that that's not what happens. When men find me attractive I get the approving catcalls and, in my experience, when they don't find me attractive I get the disapproving catcalls. I've had plenty of both, and guess what? They both feel exactly the same.

Because the point is not about telling you whether you're attractive or not, the point is demonstrating the power that the male catcaller has over another person. So, yeah, in either case (if you like my big ass or if you don't) keep it to yourself.

Kabatas - mwah ha ha! Stay classy. I don't "crucify" men, only ones like you...and those male friends you mentioned elsewhere who are disgusted with this site...

Anyhow, I gotta say I am not liking some tones that seem to admonish some of us who have a hard time dealing with harassment on the street. I mean, of course we need to get on with our lives - but comments still annoy, hurt, and even scare. So yeah, I can not give a fuck all I want, but at the end of the day...it still makes me weary to have to walk by a large group of loitering men, even one is hard because of the body language they are exhibiting. It still infuriates me that I can't go about my day without some guy "complimenting" me, or insulting me or whatever. Look, I do that too -but for fuck's sake, keep your fucking tongue in your mouth, and keep your comments to yourself. So yeah, this shit affects my life.

And as for all the women here - stop giving a flying fuck what these men say to you! I used to get so caught up in what men said, but one day I just forced myself to stop caring, and now I wear whatever the hell I want and if they say something rude, too damn bad. It's a reflection on them, not me.

To me, anyway, it is absolutely nothing to do with what these guys say. Their opinions are a matter of supreme indifference to me. But that doesn't change the fact that they feel entitled to say it at all. I don't think it's particularly wise to completely ignore a guy twice one's size with what could most charitably be called boundary issues. That's what gets to me. There's no way of knowing for sure whether it's going to stop at intrusive comments.

This is a good example of another double standard that women have to deal with. In our lookist society, you have to "look good" in order to be respected, and "looking good" for a woman almost always means playing up our "feminine" traits. So basically, if we want respect, we have to look at least a little bit sexy, but if we look even a little bit sexy, we have to deal with assholes who think that that makes us sex objects. So no matter what we wear, we can't win; if we wear sweats and an old t-shirt, we're disrespected, but if we wear heels and a dress, we're still disrespected.

And for the record, I have seen women get catcalled in every type of clothing imaginable. So no, it doesn't have anything to do with what the woman is wearing.

I've aged out of street harassment.

Boy, do I miss having men leer at me, the occasional grope in public places, and the catcalls and comments that would often turn to fun, flattering banter like "I'm talking to you, bitch!"

My self-esteem has taken a real blow now that I don't hear "Gonna fuck you bitch" or "pussy pussy pussy" as a frequent refrain on my daily errands. And the challenging, predatory stare-down, especially when you're on a quiet street alone - I can't even tell you how much I miss feeling like a deer in the gunsight. I always found it so flattering. It made me feel so pretty and feminine and wanted.

You'll all attain middle aged invisibility soon enough. And I'm sure you'll miss that mix of anger, humiliation, and fear for you safety that street harassment brings as much as I have. Just remember, though, if you find the attention you're getting now a bit overwhelming: whether you're wearing a pretty summer dress or (like I often was in my teens and twenties) baggy jeans and an oversized teeshirt, it's all just meant as an homage to your unique feminine beauty, and guys just can't help themselves, and it's all your fault anyway. And most importantly, that you're just overreacting, because what kind of irrational female would find being treated like an object frightening or threatening? Men are all perfectly harmless, and a guy who believes it's okay to invade your personal space just isn't the kind of guy who'd ever hurt a woman. He's just a guy that really loves women!

I dress to impress other women. No guy I know gives a shit about what I wear, but I like getting compliments on my sense of style from my female friends.

Sigh. I was thinking about how to respond to this post, then I was street harrassed.

I was walking home from work just today, wearing jeans and an oversized winter jacket because MN decided to have a reprieve of winter.

Some jackass starts yellin something at me (glad I had my earphones on). He then pulls over, keeps yelling, while leering in that predatory sexual way. I remove my headphones and give him an icy stare. He pulls off the street and gets out of his car. I whip out my cell phone, dial 911, put my finger on send and hold it up. He gets back in his car and drives off.

This shit is NOT benign.

But hell, if I get harassed even in my fucking winter coat, I'ma get harassed in anything. Fuck that noise. I'll wear whatever the hell I want and I will continue to yell back, flip off, stare down, and wave my phone at 'em. I sure as hell won't let these fuckers dictate what I wear.

"I mean, of course we need to get on with our lives - but comments still annoy, hurt, and even scare."

Jem, rock on.

To everyone who keeps saying "dont care about what they say" and "get over it" and shit, please stop. When your safety is threatened by men being predatory and hooting and harassing you, you don't just "not care." That's ridiculous. I DO care what these fuckers have to say, because they make me feel LIKE SHIT and UNSAFE and UNCOMFORTABLE. That is NOT ok.

And please stop trying to define 'leering' and playing semantics and all, if you're leering you know damn well what you're doing. If not, then whatever.

"I mean, of course we need to get on with our lives - but comments still annoy, hurt, and even scare."

Jem, rock on.

To everyone who keeps saying "dont care about what they say" and "get over it" and shit, please stop. When your safety is threatened by men being predatory and hooting and harassing you, you don't just "not care." That's ridiculous. I DO care what these fuckers have to say, because they make me feel LIKE SHIT and UNSAFE and UNCOMFORTABLE. That is NOT ok.

And please stop trying to define 'leering' and playing semantics and all, if you're leering you know damn well what you're doing. If not, then whatever.

About the hooting and harassing...

I've found that I can have a lot of fun wearing skirts and dresses in bright colours and artsy combinations; and since the style seems to connote something brainy and unusual, the creeps keep their mouths shut.

You do however, get lots of fabulous comments from artists. ;)

I'll add that I know it's not awesome to change how you dress because of these assholes. :(

But it is nice to be able to go out without being yelled at or feeling afraid or on edge all the time.

I'll add that I know it's not awesome to change how you dress because of these assholes. :(

But it is nice to be able to go out without being yelled at or feeling afraid or on edge all the time.

Um.

“I suppose if men were not an important part of one's sex life I would see where such attention would be completely unwelcome and rendered unacceptable under any circumstances.�

Yes, simply another instance of men buying wholly and uncritically into heteronormativity. A beautiful woman just *couldn’t* be lesbian! (Or maybe she is and secretly wants to be watched by men during sex.) Better gawk.

“On the other hand, If women based thier own self confidence upon thier ability to attract men, or if they had plans to attract men at some point in thier life, I can see how the absence of any such attention could be problematic, perhaps leading to depression and low self esteem.�

Uh, it is not women’s job to “attract� men to them like we’re some kind of birds showing off our colorful feathers to find a mate. (Surely you know that most of the “attracting� going on in the animal kingdom is done by the males of the species, not the females.) People who are romantically interested in each other come together mutually. It is a sad thing that women are encouraged in a patriarchal society to base their self-esteem on the approval of others – approval of their *physical appearance*, no less, not intelligence or personality. Women do not need you to approve of their looks. They are whole human beings who own their minds and bodies.

“Needless to say, I see little that benefits the feminist movement by berating, admonishing, and crucifying some man for making an attempt at expressing pride in his own sexuality.�

Exaggerate much (LOL @ “crucifying�)? I’m also curious to know, if cat-calling for men is “expressing pride in one’s sexuality,� what equivalent “expression of pride in their sexuality� do women have? To be quiet and look pretty? How nice. I’ll also observe that it’s no coincidence that men making obnoxious loud remarks to women passersby are almost always in groups. It’s not about “expressing pride in their sexuality.� It’s about having an immature whose-dick-is-bigger contest. The woman is secondary, hence the “object.�

Many men who stare when not in groups are simply creepy and it becomes frightening. I’ve been nearly followed home midday from the public library by a man who complimented me on my appearance and whom I merely *acknowledged* with a smile and thanks. I was a college student living alone. I had to stop off at the grocery store to lose him. Some men think acknowledgement of their leering is an invitation to follow you home. It’s scary and ridiculous and women should not have to put up with such bullshit while going about their daily lives simply because they’re women. So please don’t purport to tell women that they’re going to have “low self-esteem� for not wanting to be harassed and followed home by weirdos. Stop spouting off your feigned indignation and defensiveness and put yourself in a woman’s shoes for once.

This is in reference to the linked-to items consisting of men whining about women dressing 'unfemininely':
I think it could be said that many men these days dress in an unmanly manner. The baseball caps and over-sized clothes that are currently favored by a lot of American males(at least where I live) give the impression that we've been invaded by very large 8-year-old boys. There's nothing especially masculine about a guy who looks pre-pubescent.

Men who insist that catcalling and oogling women is just an expression of pride in their sexuality are the same guys who'd go ape-shit if gay men acted that way towards them.

What?! It's just an expression of pride in their sexuality!

I can't believe, in this long thread, people are still arguing that because women are interested in fashion, or like looking a certain way, sexual harassment is WANTED and this writer's article isn't objectionable.
There is a difference between a woman wearing dresses because she finds them comfortable, fashionable, attractive and confidence-boosting and a man telling the women of the world to wear dresses because he likes looking at them in dresses. That he's obviously only referring to young, slim women has already been pointed out.

Ksms, you rock.

I am amazing to when i read about women complaining about the unsolicited approval they get from men when they are seen in public.

I think this discussion begs the question of what is worse: to be complimented impolitely on one's appearance or to not recieve any such sentiments at all?

KabataÅŸ, is this a fucking joke? There is no question here. It is worse to be "complimented" impolitely. Am I heterosexual? Yes. Does my self-esteem hinge on whether or not men want to fuck me? Um, no. Are you out of your fucking mind? And I really don't give a shit if the poor little men will be hurt when we call them out on FUCKING HARASSING WOMEN IN PUBLIC. That reflects much more poorly on them (and you, for defending their actions) than it does on the feminist movement.

ok...I've been whistled and hollered at before numerous times and each time, no matter what age I was, I felt very embarrassed and degraded. It started getting to me so bad, but I never had a good comeback other than "fuck you" so I don't know if it worked.

I like to wear dresses, but prefer not to. I love to wear pants because personally I think they're a lot more slimming and make me actually feel a lot better about myself. Plus, they make me feel powerful. With a dress, or skirt, I feel like I have to have a certain "body shape" just to please ppl and I hate that. I hate that women are looked upon as "decorations" as someone mentioned earlier. We are NOT decorations. My mother, for instance, always wants me to wear skirts or dresses, but she's really conservative and doesn't get that no everybody likes that look. I am just so confused as to when will this degrading and harassment stop finally? I am so sick of men and their looking at us like we're just dessert.

Oh...and on a side note...my sales manager at work-who is a womanizer, grr-just told me today to meet other guys out there instead of just staying with my fiance, who really is a genuine, nice person. Well, to my sales manager-FUCK YOU!!!!! Who is he to tell me that I should experience other men...seriously...FUCK YOU!! (ok, I feel better) hehe

ok...so, I don't know what happened to my post, so I am going to repost..
(might be written differently)

I have been whistled at and looked at by men in the past,and I become more aggravated everyday by these men. I have lost most respect for men because of the guys I dated, or posts like there, but I am glad that I wear pants. I think I look better in them and they make me feel powerful. I am not out there to impress anyone-especially the male population.

Also, on a side note-I seriously have to post this...my sales mgr today at work told me that I should go out and experience new guys instead of staying with my fiance, who I have been with for 4 yrs, and who really is a genuine, great person. I quickly told him that I don't want to thank you, and that I hate men anyway. This sales mgr-btw-is a huge womanizer. So yea, I wouldn't expect him to say anything else, but seriously, to my sales mgr, I say "FUCK YOU!" Why would I want to experience "new" guys anyway...seriously...FUCK YOU!

sorry about the two separate posts-my computer was acting up, so I wrote the two posts... sorry... :(

It must've been 1950s day at the New York Times. Maybe sexism is retro or something.

I didn't know this sort of thing went on anymore. Here in the South, everybody is wearing warm weather clothes most of the year, so thus no leering. Well, when there is leering, it's about things like some chick's tiny skirt blowing up revealing her nekid bootay. Which I saw more than a few times on the FSU campus - but no one ever catcalled.

When I used to live up north, I remember being leered at. I was 12 or 13, and it scared me. A friend of mine would yell back stuff like, "Don't I know it!" or "You're looking good too, sweet cheeks!"The guys would always laugh and leave us alone after that.

In case anyone's interested, I wrote a letter in response to this article that was published today. You can read it here.

Not a regular reader, but followed a link here.

I was already thinking this and the comment by RoseColoredGlasses confirmed it:

I'm male and work in construction in downtown Charlotte (North Carolina). I almost never hear other construction workers shouting obscene comments at women or cat-calling. Occasionally men will quietly mention to each other that a good-looking woman is walking down the street, but that's about it.

More to the point, virtually every man I've heard making obscene comments or cat-calling is a transplant from New York. We've had quite of a few of those in recent years. If called on it, they insist that women LOVE it.

I've been thinking about this recently when I was on a construction site where there was a lot of whistling - but mostly it was hispanic men whistling at other hispanic men, to warn them that a crane was swinging a load near them (watch out!) or otherwise get their attention.

So is cat-calling a regional and cultural thing, or am I just oblivious to it?

The Bosnians I mostly work with are quite patriarchal in their attitudes (they have a low opinion of American men for putting up with American women), but would never condone behavior that would make a woman passing by uncomfortable. So what does this say about the usual critiques of patriarchy?

Whoops. Misread the attributions. I was referring to the comment by GoodGolly, NOT RoseColoredGlasses.

You know what sucks? The more acutely aware you are of all the gross men out there noticing you, the more they actually pay attention. really.

Someone asked how to respond to catcalls, and if you must, I recommend taking a picture of them on your phone. (Only during the day and when others are around, lest you inspire anger in your perp.)

Here is a link to the Street Harassment Project in NYC. Lots of stories of harassment are posted here, and strangely they may both anger you and make you feel better - you're not the only one out there with this problem (both thankfully and sadly). Also, some of the stories are very inspiring as women talk about how they've successfully handled situations.

http://www.streetharassmentproject.org/index.html

Joy