W.T.F.

Yeah, nothing like making women feel they are AUTOMATICALLY victims first, other, there for the taking. OH, but it's okay because they are PERMITTED to offer a YAY OR NAY first. And what of the women who opted to wear NO button?

This is so pathetic and yet so infuriating. Count me in on your idea for a new "open source" project, except I may aim at their heads.

"Nevermind the fact that only women were the gropees."

And judging by the look of the Ferret, most of those tech dudes probably have big luscious breasts as well.

As a woman software engineer...

Tech women, like women in many male-dominated fields, seek approval, and must often work twice as hard as males to gain it.
This is peer pressuring women into doing something uncomfortable. They are super-vulnerable to this type of abuse in the tech field because of the aforementioned insecurities and difficulties gaining acceptance.

I'd like to take ths opportunity to decline a Swift Kick In The Balls.

As I said to someone else in a discussion about it elsewhere, I would have worn a green button specifically so that when they asked me I could tell them to get bent.

Noted, Tom. I'll be sending you a "NO, you many not" button in the mail shortly.

Gosh, and here I was worried that women in tech fields still faced issues with androcentrism and the "chilly climate."

I'm a professional in science fiction and fantasy publishing. I'm not going to any cons this year because I'm pregnant and not flying, but if any guy tried that on me at a con, they'd get their teeth knocked in. Yeah, it's "not tawdry." Sure it's not, guys groping women's breasts at a convention. Ugh. "Excuse me, can I grab your balls and twist? No? But it's not tawdry or anything..."

A great point, geeky girl.

"So apparently at a software convention called ConFusion, a bunch of guys were standing around and talking about how awesome the world would be if they could just reach out and grab any woman's boobs. And a woman near them piped up that they could touch her breasts, and they all proceeded to grope her."

This is horribly inaccurate.

From the clarification post:

The original group was pretty firmly mixed: three women, four men. The originators of the Project were women, who asked first, and received first, with the men asking afterwards. In fact, it started out as women exploring each other.

You also make it sound as though these were complete strangers, when they weren't. It was a group of seven friends.

"Nevermind the fact that only women were the gropees."

(I should note that the men were also touched, but frankly, feeling my man-boobs and Ferrett-butt is a thrill few people appreciate. And rightfully so! Though other, more attractive males apparently got a lot more interest, both at the first and the second con.)

I realize that when trash such as this comes along, it's really easy to get angry and let things get lost in the ether, but it'd be cool to both be angry and not report inaccuracies.

Nevermind the fact that only women were the gropees

Some men say they were groped and happy to have been groped, but a) they're trying to use that as a reason for the project not being so bad, and b) one doubts they'd be happy to be groped or asked by just anyone.

I'm still in shock. Maybe I'm just a sentimental old fool, but the Free Open Source Software(FOSS) movement is supposed to be about respecting members of the FOSS community.

A lot of us in the FOSS movement are unhappy that it is so white and male. And yes, there is a lot of sexism and racism. If you read the forums over at the popular Open Source site Slashdot, you'll find it soon enough.

But you will also find people who criticize the boys locker room atmosphere and are fighting for gender and racial equity in IT.

I'm baffled by the men and women who went along with this. It is so antithetical to the ideals of Open Source.

All I can say is that there are a lot of us Open Source people who are horrified and disgusted.

Mac the Libertarian, this Bud's for you.

Mac, I realize that's how it started. But if the "project" were intended to be among friends, I don't think they would have required buttons.

i know violence isn't good, but seriously...if this guy approached me and asked to touch my boobs, I would love to grab the nearest object and pound him over the head with it...or, maybe a simple punch in the shnoz would do..

It wasn't intended to be among friends. Go back and read the original post.

It's about treating women's bodies as public, communal property; it's about reminding women that we are, first and foremost, objects for male sexual delectation; it's about forcing women to define ourselves physically and sartorially by men's desire to grab our breasts. The science-fiction/fantasy fandom world is pretty fucking pissed off about this.

In the original post, a group of people approach a young woman none of them know and ask if they can grope her. It was not among friends, and that is an inherently threatening situation.

annejumps, I'm not sure if you're accusing me of trying to defend the project against charges that it's misogynistic or sexist, or saying that I hold the naive belief that because it was ostensibly "opt-in" that it was somehow okay, or whatever.

In fact, all I was saying is that the original post contains inaccuracies, both about the origin of the project and events that occurred. It makes demonstrably false statements, and I think those should be remedied.

It doesn't change the underlying nature of the project, the fact that it reduced women to their breasts and incited a mass peer pressure situation in which women were expected to let people grope their breasts, or that it implicitly validated or did not validate women based on their breasts or their general physique.

That does not excuse falsehoods in challenging it. It was not "a bunch of guys standing around talking about how great it would be if they could grope womens' breasts," but a bunch of friends in which one of the women declared how great it would be if she could grope people's breasts, and a few males who thought "Hey! This'd be a great way for me to grab some tits", and between latent sexism and the Geek Social Fallacies, what should have been A Piece Of Shit got branded as A Great Idea instead among a particular community.

So, to distill down what I was saying for you:
When attacking something that is fundamentally wrong, making false statements is still not justified.

Is that better?

When I first heard about this I was horrified-- you want to touch your friend's boobs, fine. But it's a big leap from that to assuming any stranger who's "dressed to impress" won't mind getting felt up by random horndogs. But after going to the original thread, it makes me very tickled to see so many women putting this perv in his place.

Wow! How topical is this? I am right now researching open source software licenses for a project at work, and I attended the Romantic Times convention last weekend, where the gender distribution was probably the polar opposite of ConFusion.

This story sounds like a high school geek lunch table conversation gone awry. A little fantasizing about the cheerleaders over meatloaf and whipped potatoes, and all of a sudden, you are getting hate mail from across the world. The dangers of the Internet brought home.

While I am at it, I also would like to opt out of the ball-kickee club. Thanks for the offer and all, but I'll just sit here quietly in the corner.

The best (satirical, obviously) response I've seen so far: The Open Source African Hair Project.

As has been said on Something Positive: "These are not free range boobies!"

I saw this last night, and I think this is one of my favourite lines:

For a moment, everything that was awkward about high school would fade away and you could just say what was on your mind. It was as though parts of me were being healed whenever I did it, and I touched at least fifteen sets of boobs at Penguicon. It never got old, surprisingly.

If you need therapy to get over what happened in high school, go to a fucking therapist and leave me and my breasts out of it. My body is NOT here to make you feel better about yourself.

But then there's this:

By the end of the evening, women were coming up to us. "My breasts," they asked shyly, having heard about the project. "Are they... are they good enough to be touched?"

HOLY SHIT that is the saddest thing I've ever heard that didn't involve someone being tortured or dying. Stupid, stupid patriarchy. :(

I'm so glad to see this here! It's caused enormous ripples throughout LJ and Feminist SF and computer communities. I heartily endorse the "Open Source Swift Kick to the Balls Project."

Also, some good commentary at Feminist SF - The Blog!: http://blogs.feministsf.net/?p=340

For those of you not technologically inclined, "open-source" software means the code is available for anyone to use. All-access. Everyone has a right to it. Just like women's bodies! (Get it? They're so clever!)

As a Free Software developer (I have a longstanding dislike of the term "open source", but we won't go into that here), I'd like to take this opportunity to say that even if this crap wasn't annoying me for its misogyny and violation of personal autonomy, which it is (and I could go on for paragraphs about how much that pisses me off, but it's all been said by some amazing people already), it annoys me by appropriating the goodwill that the community has built up around giving away free-as-in-speech software over the last twenty-odd years.

(and don't just take my word for it: Matthew Garrett is one of the core Linux developers and he said much the same.)

Just FYI...Ferrets are not rodents. They're mustelids, in the same family as weasels and polecats. It's a pretty common mistake. ;)

This is pretty reprehensible, but in my experience is not an insane way of thinking at a convention. I used to go to anime conventions, and while I was once told I was 'prostituting' myself by offering a free hug if you bought a drawing from me (Not a pervy hug, just a regular one), generally most people would jump at a chance to freely fondle breasts(men and women alike). It's like all societal rules are suspended inside a convention, and yes, even the girls can get swept up in it too.

Not saying it's right, just that I've been there and I know/understand the mindset.

Right on prairielily, EG, and Marce!

Actually, the swift fierce mass response was from the science fiction community, not from the tech community so much. Though they intersect, this was science fiction fandom in action.

The feminist sf/media community on LJ has been all over this proposal as well (and Ferret Face has posted an apology and retraction of sorts--which I find less than compelling).

But what I really want to note is the incredible post by Vito_Excalibur:

The Open Source Women Back Each Other Up Project!

http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/173664.html?view=3724640#t3724640

Following paragraph is quote from VE's LJ:

"I would like to start the Open Source Women Back Each Other Up Program. Here's my pledge: if I see somebody groping you in public, and you're not moaning Yes! Yes! Yes!, I will break through your Somebody Else's Problem invisibility field and come over and ask if you're okay. If your situation looks dangerous enough I can't help on my own, I will call over friends or, if it's a situation in which I think the cops would be on your side, I will call the cops. If you're being harassed by a guy, you can say so to me, even if you don't know me. I pledge I will distract him so you can get away, or I will tell him that he needs to leave, or whatever I can do to the best of my ability. I pledge that yes, actually, because you are a woman I will give you the benefit of the doubt. If you tell me that a guy just did something shitty to you I will not refuse to look at any evidence and tell you that I know him and he's a great guy and you must have been imagining things. I have great loyalty to my male friends but I will not allow that to blind me to the fact that none of us are saints and even my best friends can screw up and may need to be called on it. I pledge that I will walk you to your car if you don't feel safe walking alone at night, and then you can drive me to mine."

NOTE: As discussed in the comments, "guy" is generally agreed to be gender-neutral term in this context!

Better url: the original one led to a comment thread.

Sorry!

http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/173664.html

There are a number things I'm finding really frustrating about this and the discussions elsewhere.

1. This stuff happens at sci-fi/gaming/comic conventions all the time. I was once picked up and carried off by a Klingon at Orycon. I was playing in a vampire LARP! Trying to make it legitimate? Yeah, NO. That the Ferret is trying to make it this whole big thing proves that men + hobbie conventions = deeply inappropriate.

2. The assumption women go to non-professional conventions to get attention from men. Really? REALLY?

3. That I'm having to explain over and over again that the question itself is harassment. That no woman should ever have to say no to that question from a stranger. This is no better than catcalls, just has allegedly better educated participants.

ARGH.

I'm really glad bigger blogs picked up on this though. Geek/gaming women have been dealing with people like The Pauly Shore Wanna Be for ages. It's frustrating, to say the least.

Tiffany...great post and I hear you. Con culture is hard to describe to people who don't go to them, but we already deal with being women in sexualized spaces ALL THE TIME and sometimes it gets worse at cons. I've been fairly lucky, but have also been touched without my permission because men thought it was okay based on either 1. what I was wearing 2. because I was dancing/drinking/walking 3. because "anything goes" at a con, etc.

I'm glad to see such an incredible response from the SF and gaming and geek communities on this though....that's heartening. :)

I'll just second what Xana said; this sort of shitty behavior takes place at cons all the time; this just brought it to the forefront. Here's hoping this "Project" turns out to be a persistent dialogue-starter.

Ann, fantastic post and I agree with you 100%, but I confess I'm disturbed by the picture you included. Anyone could see that same image just by following a link to the original post - I have to ask, is it there for the same reason that many anti-feminists use bad shots of feminists and other women, to discredit someone by means of their appearance? (This happens to Clinton a lot, sadly, and she's hardly the only recipient of 'ha ha, feminists are so UGLY, lol' sentiment). I feel like there's no need for feminists to use that tactic - especially when this guy is so obviously full of sh!t anyway.

ummm . . . yeah. that's freaking scary, even in a "microcosm." I read his original post, and it is really creepy. Really, really creepy. Creepy, creepy. Really, really.

What's creepy about it? It's his default icon.

"Here's hoping this "Project" turns out to be a persistent dialogue-starter."

Definitely. I hope this might be what it takes to make (ignorant) con-goers aware of the environment and hopefully we can move forward to put an end to such thoughts and behaviors and expectations of women at cons (whether they're dressed like Wonder Woman, Hermione Granger, or covered in a cowl). ;)

Er, that was a reply to Thene about the image at the top, not about the article itself. Sigh.

Three comments:

1. Please be clear that this has nothing, nothing, NOTHING to do with open source. Open source is a term which describes copyright terms, not access. The claim that this -- uh -- misguided idea has anything to do with "open source" is as chowderheaded as the idea that it has anything to do with healthy sexuality.

2. Sadly, the analogy Ann poses is inapt. While there are many things wrong with these buttons, they do not represent violence against women. Demeaning, objectifying, dehumanizing, yes, yes, yes; but violent, no. What we have here are a bunch of geeks who don't get laid enough finding a low-risk, immature way to express their sexuality. A better analogy might be to have buttons which would allow women to make a man drop trou and then rate his testicles on a scale from "puny" to "insufficient".

3. The button which was really missing from this misguided project was the one which read, "Fuck you for even thinking it."

Hi Xana!

I was really pleased, when I posted this to my Livejournal my male gamer/LARP/goth friends went gahadgadhghhg!!!! and thought it was just as sleazy. It's so nice to see that this is just a vocal minority. A dangerous one though.

For a community that's used to dealing with the strange and offbeat, you'd think it would be a little more aware of boundaries. But no.

ugh i have nothing to say that hasn't been said here already. this is completely disgusting. geek culture is sexist enough as it is without this crap.

One point that bothers me is that science fiction conventions are, for some of us, an extension of the work environment. What happens if the person asking to feel my breasts is an editor I desperately want to publish with? What if they run a prominent con? The whole dynamic just went pear shaped, because sure, I have the right to say no -- but I also have the right to have my career negatively impacted by that decision.

Boy, that's fair.

Is that the price of functioning as a professional in the science fiction/speculative fiction world? The sure knowledge that you have to go along with this type of thing because god knows who the askers are, and what position they hold, and what impact that will have on decisions they make about your work.

Hooray :(

"where one person are told with gropes and touches that they are desirable and the other is someone who's allowed to desire."

can we for once be allowed to desire instead of wanting to be desired? I'm so over wanting to be desired.

Who the hell IS this freak, and why hasn't he been Kochno-d yet?

I guess since he's a tech guy he's just so excited to finally make physical contact with a breast after a lifetime of not that he can't help but make a "project" out of it. But my question to him is this: why stop at tech conventions? Why not distribute these buttons to the general public? It would save all of us the trouble of telling you to go fuck yourself. What a fucking retard.

"When attacking something that is fundamentally wrong, making false statements is still not justified."

When apologizing for something you did wrong, nitpicking over semantics makes you sound a lot less genuine.

@ Dondo
"2. these buttons ... do not represent violence against women. Demeaning, objectifying, dehumanizing, yes, yes, yes; but violent, no. "

Are you insane? A bunch of dudes talking about a women's body part, totally decontextualized from her body, and about how awesome it would be to feel up on them? This isn't a joke, this is about taking a complex human being (who happens to have breasts) and boiling them down to oweners of a body part, or even down to just a body part.

halfawake,

"When apologizing for something you did wrong, nitpicking over semantics makes you sound a lot less genuine."

I didn't apologize for anything. I did not start the project, I did not participate in the project, I did not defend it.

However, if you think pointing out falsehoods in the original post is "something I did wrong" or "nitpicking over semantics", then that's a little scary. Being disingenuous, even in the pursuit of a good cause, is still disingenuous.

Ferret, your EPIC FAIL began at, "a bunch of guys were standing around and talking about how awesome the world would be if they could just reach out and grab any woman's boobs" -- wtf. Way to play into the "geeks are perverts" stereotype, you fucking moron.

I am just appalled that women would go along with this. After we've kicked the men around some more, can we talk about that? If it is insulting, violent, stupid etc for the men to treat women as available to them for groping (upon permission) is it self-abasing and submissive and male-approval-dependent for the women to let them? I don't buy the idea that the women are so terrified they can't say no.
Many women posting here say they would respond violently and vociferously if this happened to them. why do you think the women actually subjected to this humiliation didn't do what you say you would have done?

I just finished reading through his entry on LJ. He devotes thousands of words explaining to his fellow con-goers how they shouldn't participate in his insane project, but none of those words are directly devoted to apologizing to these women for encouraging treating them like blow-up dolls on a mass scale. He apologizes to the cons he attended for embarrassing them, and he offers a generic my-bad to anybody else he may have embarrassed. He rambles about how people should feel safe at conferences. But never does he actually say, "Ladies, I'm sorry for my behavior. I'm sorry I suggested large-scale objectification and pig behavior. I'm an asshole." He just flat doesn't do that. What a PRICK.

"(At least I’m fairly sure they didn’t have to worry about me at Penguicon. ConFusion, though? Even though I don’t recall asking anyone I didn’t know personally beforehand? It’s certainly possible I did harm – and if I embarrassed or humiliated anyone at either con, then I do apologize personally to you. As I apologize to anyone who now feels less safe going to cons, for whatever that is now worth.)

Cheers, Ann. I'm thinking I may post over there.

Mac,
I think I misread one of your bolded quotes as being something you were saying, which led me to think you were involved. Sorry. That said, nitpicking over the language in the post here makes your condemnation of the "project" (e.g. 'trash such as this comes along') sound less genuine. Ann's post didn't seem at all disingenuous, and I think her interpretation of what happened was right on.

Some Cat:

Something you have to understand about geek culture in almost all it's forms is it takes a lot for women to overcome being women.

The desire for acceptance in techie, gamer, sci-fi arenas is enough to encourage someone in a male dominated environment to say yes and go along with such stupidity. And often it's women who'd gladly tell someone where to go anywhere else.

Peer pressure in such a incestuous, insular and male dominated environment can be a powerful force.

I think linking to my earlier posts on this subject got me sent into moderation purgatory. (Check the link to my blog - they're the two most recent posts.)

But re the use of the picture and caption: I'm a bit uneasy about the appearance-based bashing, but since the guy tried to defend this "project" on the grounds of body-positivity and then talked about using attractiveness as a criterion for whether he'd proposition a woman, I can't bring myself to give much of a defense.

Men who most likely don't want to be judged for their looks, determining which women are "worthy" according to... their looks. Of course.

irishgirl1983 - huh? Isn't that what "dehumanizing" and "objectifying" mean?

I spent a lot of time arguing in those threads yesterday (handle: mexicanicepick) and this whole thing pissed the everloving crap out of me. That said, I think it's unfair to assume that Mac doesn't care or isn't genuine because he objects to factual inaccuracies; those don't often work to one's advantage.

Moreover—as Mac pointed out to me off this board—claiming that only women were being groped, in addition to being untrue, makes it sound like this project would have (which is to say, did) gain legitimacy if men were groped, too. The fact that men were also groped doesn't make this one bit better.

irishgirl1983 - huh? Isn't that what "dehumanizing" and "objectifying" mean?

Er, would have gained legitimacy.

Also, I mean, if it's worth it to correct the order to which ferrets belong, isn't it worth it to get the facts right?

The fact that the women who participated in the project at Penguicon each actively wanted to be a part of it apparently means little, because they’re apparently not qualified to make their own choices about how they want friends and acquaintances to approach them.

His apology isn't even an apology. It's just more you're-just-not-enlightened-or-empowered-enough-to-get-it tripe.

Is there a bingo card for Nice Guy (tm) comments? His apology reeks of Nice Guy-isms.

I think the thing that bothers me most is the standard that was there for whose boobs they would try to grope. The description of women asking if their breasts were "good enough" sickens me. This is not about making someone feel good for being able to share their body, it's another source of what is and isn't hot setting a standard for women to strive towards. "You won't grope me? no? Okay, I'm off to buy a pushup bra and a tube top, be back in twenty minutes."

I'm sad to say that I delved into the bowels of this genius' website and learned way too much about him. His blog is rife with misogynistic content, from jokes about being an abusive boyfriend to his porn obsession to how he became his wife's "bitch". I don't think he gives a shit about the women he objectified and put at risk with his little stunt. Like the little crap who sent the hate mail last week, I think he's just sorry he got called on it.

Scroll down past the weird cartoons for links to bizarre postings:

http://theferrett.livejournal.com/profile

Oh my goodness.

I didn't think he could get worse, then it did.

"Ok, so, how about you wear the buttons and people offer?" "Well no, because then people might judge me!"

Just. Agh.

A better analogy might be to have buttons which would allow women to make a man drop trou and then rate his testicles on a scale from "puny" to "insufficient".

I'm sorry, how is this a better analogy? In your analogy, no one is being touched – no physicality in your "analogy" at all. There wasn't assessing going on here, there was groping. The two are not equivalent.

really I think this guy is on to somehting
I could go for a vareity of buttons red and green representing responses to different common questions
they´d never have to be asked thye could just look through your button array
which would also allow people to stare at your boobs

Dondo - grabbing breasts is violent in that it's physically violating when one hasn't given consent or is pressured into giving consent. Perhaps a better analogy would be asking to grab men's balls.

However, I definitely support your idea for a pin saying "fuck you for even thinking it." I would definitely wear one. Perhaps keep one with me at all times, just in case.

Oh, come on, I would TOTALLY do this.

Assuming by "breasts" they meant "balls" and there was no standard on how hard they were allowed grabbed...

Oh, come on, I would TOTALLY do this.

Assuming by "breasts" they meant "balls" and there was no standard on how hard they were allowed to be grabbed...

Halfawake

That said, nitpicking over the language in the post here makes your condemnation of the "project" (e.g. 'trash such as this comes along') sound less genuine.
I'm sorry, but no. Insisting on factual accuracy from people who are speaking against something you dislike in no way makes your own opposition less genuine. In fact, as an advocate or opponent for any position, you have an obligation to make sure that the people who are representing your view point are sticking to the truth. You may detest the event, it may have been short sighted and immature, but you should always get your facts straight, especially when you are speaking to people who may not go and look at the initial posts. A few inaccuracies in the initial post can quickly snowball into comments that bear little or no similarity to reality.

Ann's post didn't seem at all disingenuous, and I think her interpretation of what happened was right on.

I am reasonably familiar with his writing, and when he posted this, I skimmed the first post and read the second. If I hadn't seen similar factual errors pop up in other people's responses to the posts, I probably would have assumed
exactly that.

The various people who made disparaging comments about his sexual experience and sex life
At the very least, I want to mention that he is happily married to a wonderful woman. (She's a lawyer who helped a couple of my favorite people on the net navigate the US immigration system when they decided to get married.)
Theferrett didn't start this program, he was just the public face. The other members of the group didn't blog about it in part because of the amount of trollish backlash that it was expected to generate. (Real quick, I want to make it clear that, factual errors aside, I don't think this analysis was trollish. I think it was honest and important, and not too far off from right. I personally think John Scalzi probably has the right of this one in his two part analysis here and here , but then my interpretation is colored by a longish history of reading what theferrett writes. What is actually trollish are comments like the ones in the original thread that fairly brutally attack his wife.) As I understand it, the other people who took part in developing this will eventually be posting about it, but they are going to wait for the total shitstorm to pass. (Not everyone is sanguine with the idea of being attacked in their home blogs.)

In the hedonistic world of cons it doesn't strike me as unusual that this would happen. Not that it makes it right of course, I just am not "shocked" by it.

Once, in my convention days, I wore a headband with cat ears on it. A girl tried to reach out and grab me, and I jumped away with a stern "WTF!". Her response was, "Don't wear the ears if you don't expect to get petted!"

Riiiight.

mdesus: that's nothing new. There used to be a handkerchief code that would let people know about your particular kink.

And Ronin, presumably you read the the things theferret wrote about women asking for it? About sex being like a hamburger? About how women shouldn't make men beg?

Right?

Geeky Girl made an excellent point worth repeating. It's hard enough to gain acceptance as a woman into the tech industry and among such male dominated circles.

Just from having been a total computer geek when I was a freshman in high school, I can tell you that before everything else, if you were a woman, you were expected to be sexually available, if only for fantasies, or you were barely worth tolerating.

This may have been all in fun at first, but you can't imagine the impact it probably had on the women who ended up feeling left out for not making themselves available, let alone on the women who engaged only to avoid feeling maligned. You just don't do this kind of thing in the world we live in.

Cola, but that doesn't make the action any more or less inappropriate.

Mickey -- that's exactly what it does.

Actually, Ferrett is my former business partner, we collaborated on a web comic Home on the Strange for about two years. Ironically, we got a lot of praise for strong female characters and a feminist friendly viewpoint, a rare thing for a web comic. He's not really a bad guy. This was a completely bone-headed, offensive, objectifying thing to post, but from what I gather, the reality was far less alarming.

To clarify a couple of a couple of points:
The project was cooked up by a small group of people primarily consisting of real life friends and spouses.

It then spontaneously spread to some more friends and acquaintances at the con. As in, writing from his perspective, the women were strangers to him, but not to the people doing the asking. I think the buttons were made by someone at a later, entirely different, con something not clear from his post.

They were not advertised or distributed, only given to friends of friends or people that asked around and wanted to participate.

I think in total they gave away something like 40 buttons and this includes people that needed a second because they lost one, or wanted a souvenir.

It was, despite the name, equal opportunity groping. Grabbing the guys however was significantly less popular.

Over and over the participants have said that it was a small group, mostly acquaintances, and the whole thing had a mostly female, safe space, body positive energy. To my knowledge, no one complained, and I saw one anonymous comment in the thread of 1300 that claimed to have been an uncomfortable bystander. Many more people were at the con and never heard of it.

When Ferrett wrote it up in his blog he imposed a very het male, very sexualized, very privileged perspective on it. From my experience with Ferrett quoting me, he tends to spend more attention in keeping things funny and interesting instead of accurate. His write up made the whole experience sound much more prevalent, creepy, entitled and objectifying then what seems most people involved took as a warm fuzzy experience.

To be clear, his post described a terrible, ill-conceived, solipsistic, misogynistic idea and I argued with him vehemently in half a dozen comments. I think initially they really did mean well. In my experience, Ferrett's not good at looking at things from the perspectives of others and is rather oblivious to male privlege. I'm sure he had no idea his post would paint such a sinister and alarming picture of something he thought was positive, and wouldn't in his wildest dreams predict the shitstorm this has caused.

He and I did argue about feminist ideals a lot and his obliviousness certain issues and how he handled them did play a part in the dissolution of our working relationship.

However, while this was a horrendous idea, it's not an actively malicious one. There were never any hordes of drooling booby-grabbing nerds. In truth I feel kind of bad for the guy because no matter how he franticly he apologizes, this is going to follow him for a long time.

The women are grown adults who I am sure are aware of their actions. I just don't like the insinuation that these women were too stupid and weak, and so fell into these guys' trap.

It's not the women's fault but the environment that allowed that behavior to occur. It's the assumption that men should be able to grope women freely that is ingrained into men AND women.

Jess - yes, clearly it's true that if the groping were done without consent, it would be an act of violence. Equally clearly, that's not what was going on here. I think it's important to resist identifying this behavior as violent. Sexual violence is a different and much more frightening type of misogyny. Though there is clear and inappropriate pressure being applied, these guys are being given permission before making sexual contact. (I believe the legal distinction would be "hostile environment" vs. "sexual assault.") The question of standing up to being pressured into giving consent is the point of the "fuck you" button. A parade of women with those buttons really would make the point in a way even these lizards could understand.

ShelbyWoo -- of course it's hard to find a direct analogue. The root problem here is how sexually demeaning these buttons are. I rejected the idea of "fondle my balls" buttons because that would not make this sort of man feel demeaned. It is difficult to make a man who doesn't already "get it" it to feel insulted by any sexual attention, unless it's explicitly demeaning. It would probably be more honest to have the scale go from "puny" to "I'd fondle that" but again, this type of reptile brain would only hear "I'd fondle that."

Unless, as has been suggested, you add violence -- but I believe that violence is the wrong answer, especially if the original act is not violent.

I'm so sick of hearing people defend misogynistic morons as being "basically good guys." If he doesn't want misogynistic behavior and comments to follow him around the rest of his life, then he should REFRAIN FROM MISOGYNISTIC BEHAVIOR AND COMMENTS. Fucking crying out loud.

Personally, I really don't care "how things went down". What's most infuriating is the fact that this group of men thought it was their right to even ASK women if they could grope their bodies.

What happened here is grotesque, but no amount of apologies/defenses will eliminate the initial entitlement that set things off.

And by the way, "good guys" don't spew the garbage this guy is responsible for--joking, or not.

I've been following this brou-ha-ha for the last couple days. I think that one good positive thing that has come from it is that it has spawned a lot of dialog within the LJ (and wider blogging) community about issues of sexism, sexual assult, misogyny and other things that we read about often in the Feminist blogosphere, but not nearly enough in the rest of it.

I know that it popped up on a few friends' LJs today, and spawned a poll to find out how many men and women have been subjected to unwanted sexual contact.

It's a little ironic that this debacle cropped up during Sexual Assault Awareness month...very timely, if you ask me.

I've also been involved in some discussions of this, and in the end it comes down to bodily integrity.

It's the suggestion that anyone, anywhere, should be able to question my right to my bodily integrity because it will make the world a happier healthier place with butterflies and Bambi and bunnies ejaculating rainbows that got my hackles up, I think.

If it had just been described as something that happened between friends I wouldn't have been bothered. If they hadn't tried to make it into a "movement" I probably would never have heard of it.

For those on livejournal, there's a community, belweather_talk, for discussion of how to make sci-fi cons "safer" space. I'm not fool enough to think that cons will ever be "safe space" until the world is.

I almost wish I were.

I go to a Japanese Animation convention every year and no one has done anything like this. The worst that goes on there is a yaoi paddle that people use to smack eachother in the asses (boys do it to boys, girls do it to girls, girls do it to boys, boys do it to girls... its just an odd thing) but grabbing someone's ti t is just ridiculous. If anyone did that to me I would punch them in return and say "oh i'm sorry i thought your face was like open-source software."
And what's dressed to impressed? People do dress up to these conventions (I myself an wearing a coat right now that is part of a costume) but no one wants their tit grabbed because they're dressed like a character who wears provocative clothing.

These douchebags need swift kick in the balls. Sign me on for THAT campaign!

If any guy tried this on ME, he'd get a front-snap kick to the groin in a heartbeat. And then verbally REAM him out until he cried.

Fuckers.

Aaah, Geeks...

I have some familiarity with this subculture. This is kind of ridiculous & amusing to me. I don't understand why people are getting so angry about it.

Everything is consensual - I'm sure the buttons were supposed to add an extra layer of consent/safety:

green button - I'm in on the thing enough for you to ask

red button - I'm in on the thing and don't even ask

no button - I'm not in on it

Geeks need labels and manuals for everything, it seems.

As to this being a male-dominated environment, yes it is, but it is dominated by geek/nerd males - this isn't a convention of football players. These are basically "Nice Guys (tm)".

They are generally sexually underexperienced but financially well off boys. Some of the few women who attend these things are there to exploit that situation in one way or another.

Is it pathetic and embarassing? Yes.
Threatening, no - not if you know the context.

Definitely not worth getting violent over (kick in the balls crew) ...

No joke, I had a similar experience at an SCA event a few years ago. A drunken Scotsman asked me if he could touch my breasts and I told him only if I could grab his balls and twist.

It was the one and only time I wore a bodice, since my girls are large and tend to be exuberant. I'll stick with my more concealing, if just as revealing, garb, thanks.

Lear:

No. It is not okay that this is happening in a geek context. It is not okay in any context. Women are geeks, too, and they have the right to bodily integrity.

It should not be "expected" behavior. Anywhere. By anyone. It's not "nice." It's creepy.

(Okay, it could be expected behavior in spaces where it's been negotiated as appropriate, like, say, a room party and not the con as a whole.)

I also don't know where people get the idea that all male geeks are "Nice guys" who just never get to see a boobie. I've known far more geeks who were feminist gentlemen and who would be horrified at this sort of behavior. (anecdote != data)

It is troubling to me that he sees a sexuality that isn't dirty as "miraculous." That sounds healthy...

"As to this being a male-dominated environment, yes it is, but it is dominated by geek/nerd males - this isn't a convention of football players."

So?

Playing with computers doesn't make one any nicer than playing football does.

"They are generally sexually underexperienced but financially well off boys."

I bet some of them are sexually inexperienced, financially well off boys who don't actually like computer programming, science fiction, etc. and just hang out in those scenes because some stereotypes say computers and science fiction are just for guys with more money than dates.

What a pain in the ass for people who join those scenes because they do actually like computer programming, science fiction, etc. *and* who prefer politeness.

Kinda like the way some stereotypes say anime fans don't bathe, I bet some people who don't like hygiene or anime go to anime cons because they think they'll fit in there, and many congoers who actually like anime don't think so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd-Mco6QNas

http://board.otakon.com/index.php?showtopic=2448&st=150&p=47978&#entry47978

"No. It is not okay that this is happening in a geek context. It is not okay in any context."

Bingo. Cultural relativism is still cultural relativism even when that card's played on behalf of some straight rich white guy.

Not only what sistercoyote said, but:

They are generally sexually underexperienced but financially well off boys. Some of the few women who attend these things are there to exploit that situation in one way or another.

Did you seriously mean to imply that female congoers are (sorry, that *some* are) prostitutes or "gold-diggers"?

A nitpick: neither Unfunny Business nor JournalFen.net are dedicated to Open Source (though JournalFen does run on such software). It's a site for media fans.

I have some familiarity with this subculture. This is kind of ridiculous & amusing to me. I don't understand why people are getting so angry about it.

Don't let the door hit you on your way out, then.... And I'm hoping that while saying you have familiarity with the subculture, you remember that you are not the only commenter here who is saying that.

Everything is consensual - I'm sure the buttons were supposed to add an extra layer of consent/safety:

green button - I'm in on the thing enough for you to ask

red button - I'm in on the thing and don't even ask

no button - I'm not in on it

The complaint is that no one should feel obligated to wear a button or even know about this project in the first place. And yes, we've read about it and we know it's supposed to communicate consent. Whether every woman is truly free to consent without any pressure is what's under discussion.
A number of women whose comments I've read felt the red button's existence was one of the most objectionable things about this -- because NO should be the default, no button needed, no discussion about this "project" even occurring. Furthermore, your explaining the buttons to us, when it's been exhaustively discussed, is condescending.

Geeks need labels and manuals for everything, it seems.

Yes, we're all just so socially inept. Gosh. Whatever will we do with ourselves. Tee hee. We're incorrigible.

As to this being a male-dominated environment, yes it is, but it is dominated by geek/nerd males - this isn't a convention of football players. These are basically "Nice Guys (tm)".

I guess you've never read discussions about "Nice Guys" (tm) on feminist blogs before. I assume that because you're apparently using their being "Nice Guys" (tm) as an excuse or defense.

They are generally sexually underexperienced but financially well off boys. Some of the few women who attend these things are there to exploit that situation in one way or another.

Leaving aside the "con women are golddiggers" thing (WTF? Are you saying that makes the groping okay, or what?), the stereotype that all geeks all undersexed is not true. TheFerrett himself is married and his wife vociferously defended his actions.

Is it pathetic and embarassing? Yes.
Threatening, no - not if you know the context.

Definitely not worth getting violent over (kick in the balls crew) ...

Everyone, Lear has spoken! You hysterical dames, you.

The thing is, as people have pointed out, peer pressure can be horrible at cons. I have friends who go to them "dressed to impress" - they wear fabulous outfits, sometimes looking very sexy, but there's no way they would be happy about being asked this kind of question.

Fortunately none of them tend to go places alone much, so the peer pressure factor is offset by having friends around who are likely to intervene with a well-deserved "What the FUCK, asshole", but it still makes for uncomfortable situations.

I am not only upset at what those men are doing, but I am extremely upset at the women who actually let them touch their breasts! How can these men feel ashamed for their actions if there are women out there who are silently encouraging their behavior? I give a huge thumbs down to both genders on this one.

Sorry, folks, but I was there both times. Men were "gropees," too, btw - which Ferrett mentioned but perhaps did not highlight sufficiently.

No one was victimized, no one was pressured into participating - hell, no one was even talked to about it unless they were close enough friends with someone involved that the participant knew the invitee wouldn't FEEL threatened or insulted in any way.

This is just what Ferrett said it was - an attempt to take, even if for a brief moment, some of the shame and politics out of sexuality and attraction. While his description may have been clumsy, I stand behind him and the whole "mini-event." However, I am perturbed, to say the least, that people who weren't there and don't know as a result what they're talking about feel so free to condemn others and even joke about taking violent action against them.

Ann, I'll have to add that in addition to what Khym Chanur said, the area where there seems to be the most discussion about this is among fans of all stripes, not necessarily the open-source community. As fandom is widely female-dominated, it's a smaller step to get organized and pissed and make change through feminist attitudes within it.

This post highlights some more responses from the fan community:
http://community.livejournal.com/metafandom/187521.html

A huge issue with comparing breasts to open-source software is that most open-source software is developed by a community. Last I checked, there was no community involved in creating my cleavage.

Dawn said:

"hell, no one was even talked to about it unless they were close enough friends with someone involved that the participant knew the invitee wouldn't FEEL threatened or insulted in any way."

Dawn, that really doesn't follow with what this participant is saying.

Am I the only one here who thinks that it's not only ok to grope a consenting adult, but that it can actually be a pleasureable experience for both parties; and that kicking someone in the balls is ok too (and, in fact can be quite funny) if they consent to it? I mean, am I crazy, or are y'all?

Sapien, yes, you are the only one here. Please go and complain about how my tone has oppressed you someplace else.

Anna, I don't think that your tone has oppressed me. I'm just confused as to what the wrongdoing was here. I mean, some people wanted to touch other people who wanted to be touched. So, they touched. Where's the harm in that?

No one was victimized, no one was pressured into participating - hell, no one was even talked to about it unless they were close enough friends with someone involved that the participant knew the invitee wouldn't FEEL threatened or insulted in any way.

As was pointed out by Anne, apparently you are incorrect.

I'm glad you had the experience and that it worked for you. Seriously. I've said elsenet that I wouldn't have reacted nearly as strongly if ferret hadn't phrased it as a movement, as something that should be done (con)society-wide. Staying within a group of friends; well, that's what friends are for. Asking the wider world, with all the sexist baggage Western Society carries, to accept this as a Good Thing? That's going to get the reaction ferret got.

Also, you really can't extrapolate your experience to be the same for everyone. Just because you, and the people who were friends who you knew who participated, enjoyed and understood what happened, doesn't mean that everyone could or did, as Anne's link points out.

Sapien, had this been in a private place, only involving people who explicitly consented, that'd be one thing. That wasn't what this was.

"This" being what theferrett described/proposed, anyway.

Jeff, I agree that EXPLICIT consent is what's needed. But, would it really have to be in private? How many times have you seen boyfriends and girlfriends playing grab-ass in public?

Yes, absolutely it would. The reason why is that this *isn't* boyfriends and girlfriends, it's relative strangers in a space that's dedicated to an activity that has nothing to do with sex. PDA may be in bad taste, but there's no worry that you're going to be next.

I've got a much more detailed post about that here.

This quote alone encapsulates the scandal for me:
"My breasts," they asked shyly, having heard about the project. "Are they... are they good enough to be touched?" And lo, we showed them how beautiful their bodies were without turning it into something tawdry."

Do you want to touch my breasts? Are they good enough?

The problem with the "consensual" touching is that it was predatory. If Tech-Dudes come away from high school feeling stigmatized, devalued and socially awkward--can you then imagine how most geeky girls feel? We aren't even considered normative in our social niche of choice!

How much better would it have been for this guy to write a blog post about how artificial and damaging conventional beauty standards are? Instead, he wanted to convince women to submit themselves for sexual approval. Even if the standard is that all boobs are good enough, there's more to a woman than her breasts. The whole concept is still predicated on judging women based on sexual desirability. This experiment revolved around men with long-standing social insecurities finding sexual satisfaction by exploiting the long-standing sexual insecurities of their female peers. The fact that men vastly outnumber women in IT, a traditionally hostile field for women, makes the situation even worse.

Women "willing" participate in many sexist, misogynistic activities. It is fairly common for insecure (socially, financially, etc.) women to be consensually exploited. That does not alter the nature of the act.

Anne & Sistercoyote:

Anne wrote:

"Dawn, that really doesn't follow with what this participant is saying."

First - Anne, thanks for the link. Reading it, I see that the participant overheard a conversation, joined in, and then volunteered. She doesn't seem to have been upset until after seeing Ferrett's post, which I've admitted was a clumsy explanation of what happened. So while it turns out I wasn't literally correct about how every participant came to be a participant, I was correct in spirit.

Sistercoyote, you're also correct in pointing out that I can't extrapolate my experience onto others. But so far, the only virulent complaints I've read or heard regarding this have been from people who weren't even there. That's the part that angers me, because it feels as though those posters are judging me and my experience. How dare someone say she is ashamed of me for "allowing" this to happen, as though I lacked the judgment to make this decision for myself? And how dare people who weren't there *advocate violence* against my friends and I?

Now, was Ferrett's public post a bad idea? Definitely. In other words, you're absolutely right - this kind of thing is Not Good as a public activity, precisely because of all of the sexism - and the understandable backlash to it - in our screwed up, poor excuse for a Western culture.

I don't care what groups of friends do for fun. At all.

But to suggest this shit to a larger community as a "good idea" definitely crosses a line. HOW? WHY? would anyone think this is reasonable?

Furthermore I cannot BELIEVE there is an expectation for women to "opt out" of this. You really need me to specify that No, actually, I'm not okay with strangers pawing me???

"I won't deny it was sexual."

Big of you, Mr Ferret.

"But it was a miraculous sexuality that didn't feel dirty, but clean."

There are so many issues contained in that one sentence that I don't know where to start.

Alison: "Furthermore I cannot BELIEVE there is an expectation for women to "opt out" of this. You really need me to specify that No, actually, I'm not okay with strangers pawing me???"

The text of the blog post specifically contradicts this:
"First: The program's an opt-in program, which is to say that if you're not wearing a button, we'll never ask."

nedlum: But it seems a lot of people were recruited, as opposed to asking on their own initiative, and at least once with incorrect information at that (see Anne's post). As well, people without buttons WERE asked at the beginning of this movement, which also describes as its ideal a world without buttons were people can regularly ask this of female strangers - and be assured of a "yes" response.

Part of me is disgusted. I run into these types of guy all the time and they constantly leave me feeling like I need a shower. But there's another part of me that tries to put aside my disgust in the hopes of understanding this phenomenon a bit better.

I suspect that these guys are inexperienced with women and sexuality in general, and feel confused and uncomfortable about why that's the case. I'd love to find a way to help inept guys like this become more comfortable with themselves socially and with women. If that were the case, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be so preoccupied with running around conferences squeezing random women's breasts.

So while my self-protective instinct makes me want to run for the hills, the social scientist in me wants to study the behavior, the kindhearted part of me wants to offer these guys some compassion for their awkwardness, and the activist part of me wants to find some way to fix this for the benefit of geeks everywhere.

Thank you so much for posting that link to WisCon! I love to go to conventions, but currently I only pick one a year, and the one for this year has already been chosen. I'll have to check it out in years to come.

I've never had anything bad happen at a convention, but I always costume play as male characters, and I always go with a few male friends, which makes me less of a target. There are entire threads on some websites devoted to people's stories about various con incidents. The sad thing is, the discussion is often rerouted because we're told not to scare off the younger con goers. -_-

I'm a total geek myself, and the world I have to play in really does make me sad. It's hard to find a good video game that has female characters I can respect and really want to play, it's hard to find a series where the main female cast isn't told to wear push-up bras, and I really hate it when I play Massive Multiplayer Online Games and get hit on when people find out the girl behind the female character is actually a girl (and I don't even want to get into what they say about guys who play female characters).

I definitely get that whole devalued feeling a lot, and this particular proposition isn't helping at all. I do think conventions are a place where people generally feel like they can lose the rules for a few days; I mean, you're 25, wearing a full-body costume, and people won't make fun of you for it (better yet, you get prizes for good work). Surrounded by people who have a like-mind, you feel a little less shy about approaching someone, because hey, you know that cute guy over there will actually be impressed instead of laughing when you tell him how many comic books you own.

Hm, but it doesn't make this ok. What I guess I'm trying to explain is how people who normally seem nice would suddenly come up with a bullshit idea like this, and how people who normally have more sense to "just say no" would fall into this trap. I never had a date in high school, and I'm pretty sure if I didn't have anyone to back me up, I would've said yes at that point in my life too. College has helped a lot with that, but even I can't get past the fact that my opinion about Halo 3 just isn't as valued at these places as a lot of men's.

"But it seems a lot of people were recruited, as opposed to asking on their own initiative"
Fair. All I can say is, one assumes, they were judicious in the types of people that they'd ask about the project.

"and at least once with incorrect information at that (see Anne's post)."

Fair. That clearly was a mistake; although it seems to me that most of her problem is The Ferret's packaging of the issue, rather than the botched rules-telling.

"As well, people without buttons WERE asked at the beginning of this movement"
Well, that was before the buttons were made. The Ferret claims that they only asked those people who they believed would be amenable to it.
But, fair: they were asking people who they hadn't ask if they could ask (an awkward phrasing).

"...describes as its ideal a world without buttons were people can regularly ask this of female strangers - and be assured of a "yes" response."

The closest I get to that statement is this: "I wish this was the kind of world where say, 'Wow, I'd like to touch your breasts,' and people would understand that it's not a way of reducing you to a set of nipples"

To my eyes, the take-away from that is "You have great breasts" can't simply be a compliment, but must viewed as a sexual come-on. And that's not healthy.

(Part of me would like the "Free-ranged boob" world, but that's because such a world's existence hangs on the fact that rape presumably wouldn't be an expectation).

Sorry if any of this came out wrong; I'd prefer you blame it on the hour.

Part of me is disgusted. I run into these types of guy all the time and they constantly leave me feeling like I need a shower. But there's another part of me that tries to put aside my disgust in the hopes of understanding this phenomenon a bit better.

I suspect that these guys are inexperienced with women and sexuality in general, and feel confused and uncomfortable about why that's the case. I'd love to find a way to help inept guys like this become more comfortable with themselves socially and with women. If that were the case, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be so preoccupied with running around conferences squeezing random women's breasts.

So while my self-protective instinct makes me want to run for the hills, the social scientist in me wants to study the behavior, the kindhearted part of me wants to offer these guys some compassion for their awkwardness, and the activist part of me wants to find some way to fix this for the benefit of geeks everywhere.

Anyone notice how Ferrett is a tad creepy and loutish to say the least! What I find terrible is that women asked to be groped since that was an affirmation that they were desirable: in Ferrett's words. My brother is a techie, he better not be endorsing this!

"If Tech-Dudes come away from high school feeling stigmatized, devalued and socially awkward--can you then imagine how most geeky girls feel? We aren't even considered normative in our social niche of choice!"

Yeah. Looks to me like just another case of "if you don't like bigotry within the group, then you're bigoted against the group!!!" Why should geeky girls have to put up with this shit even more than "mainstream" girls do?

To clarify: there's a big difference between socially awkward and anti-social, and we socially awkward people shouldn't have to endure anti-social treatment any more than the socially adept people do. ;)

Am I the only one here who thinks that it's not only ok to grope a consenting adult, but that it can actually be a pleasureable experience for both parties; and that kicking someone in the balls is ok too (and, in fact can be quite funny) if they consent to it? I mean, am I crazy, or are y'all?

I agree with you sapien, assuming the right circumstances, but it seems we're in the minority. Best to leave it alone, especially since I'm now finding it hard to tell what really happened. Though I'm glad to hear from someone like Dawn who was there.

Sapian, if it were as simple as touching, then it wouldn't either need to be breasts, or need to be written up by theferret as either using the power of teh_boobies to heal his teenaged-angst or as his mastubatory fantasy.

Touching and being touched is great. Why don't we start with all the guys at Cons who want to break down sexual taboos start encouraging and participating in non-sexual touching between men?

When theferret argues that having folks who are willing to do the touching wear buttons indicating their willingness (instead of having folks who are willing to be touched indicate *theirs*) as "a passive system" instead of an "active" one... well, he's showing his hand.

This, for him, was about being the active touching person, going up to women whose breasts he found attractive and "groping" them. ("Grope" is not a word without conotation. I've been groped in public more than once. It is gross. I have no doubt theferret is aware of the conotation of the word because I do not doubt his intelligence.)

Going up to a guy and saying "Hey, I have breasts, wanna touch them!" would be an *active* thing for me, and a passive thing for theferret - and theferret doesn't want to be in the passive role.

Or, more likely to me, he doesn't want women he finds unattractive approaching him, asking him to touch them, and being put in the position of saying "no".

Either way, he frames this as being all about him, his comfort levels, his sexual-healing, his wants.

When folks come out and say "But that's not what it was!" I don't doubt them - I do not think for a moment that Dawn is lying about her experiences.

But Dawn wasn't the one who wrote up the original post, and she wasn't the one whose words are now being used to champion or denegrade this stuff around the internet.

Theferret's are.

Words matter.

I wish this was the kind of world where say, 'Wow, I'd like to touch your breasts,' and people would understand that it's not a way of reducing you to a set of nipples"

To my eyes, the take-away from that is "You have great breasts" can't simply be a compliment, but must viewed as a sexual come-on. And that's not healthy.

Can you really not tell the difference between: "You have great breasts" and "I'd like to touch your breasts"? The latter is a sexual come on, because breast touching is a sexual act. And if you look at what the open source boob project was, it wasn't a space where men and women could feel comfortable complimenting a woman on her breasts. It was a space where men and women could feel comfortable asking a woman if they could touch her breasts. Completely different things.

I was involved in the event; and for me it was a very fun and open experience. At the first con the "project" was explained to me, and I decided to participate. I was not pressured, oppressed, or violated; it was a choice I made and wanted to make and would make again.

At the second Con, for me it was more of a joke between friends. I had one person ask me what my button was about, and I just told him that it was an inside joke and he went on his way. Looking back, 3 good female friends and two good male friends(who were married to two of the females) were the only ones who touched my breasts, as well as my ass, each and every time with permission.

I can't speak for anyone else's experience with this project; but I can speak for my own, and I had a good time.

I think this was a one-time event; a blending of time and place that made it enjoyable. As for making it a movement and taking it to cons around the world? I don't think it could happen.

I have never heard of feministing until today. My wife reads this blog regularly and naturally she was appalled by this "open-source project".

I have three daughters at home whom I try to protect from predators like ferret so what I am absolutely serious when I say.........ferret, if I ever see or hear of you placing a finger on one of my daughters or anyone else's daughter regardless of whether they asked for it or not I will fucking take you down!

To all of you who keep posting that you don't understand what the big deal is about this subject, try thinking of it in the broader sense. If you're at a party, with your friends, and you want to privately grope each other, FINE. But what this guy is suggesting is that every breast everywhere should be made available to him and to any other man on the street. And these breasts should be such a given that *I* should have to wear a button saying NO or he'll just assume I'm down with it. THAT'S the problem. He says it was just a gag among consenting friends, but his attitude says that he wishes at-will groping was universally allowed. I don't know why this is so hard for you guys to get your heads around. Just because one woman somewhere says OK doesn't mean that it isn't damaging to the rest of us. If that were the case, there would be nothing wrong with the porn industry, and we all know there is.

Ellalthea:

At the second Con, for me it was more of a joke between friends. I had one person ask me what my button was about, and I just told him that it was an inside joke and he went on his way.

If it had been left this way, as an inside thing, between friends, I doubt there would have been nearly the outcry. The problem was, theferret described it as something he thought should be spread to the wider world.

Again, as I said to Dawn, I am seriously glad it was a positive and amusing experience for you. I'm not being sarcastic at all.

"(Part of me would like the "Free-ranged boob" world, but that's because such a world's existence hangs on the fact that rape presumably wouldn't be an expectation)."

You have a point. Maybe in a world without misogyny and sexual violence, this sort of thing really could be nothing but light-hearted fun, even between strangers. But we don't live in that world. We may want to, for a whole host of reasons, but trying to bring a perk from that imaginary world into this one without first making the really important changes will always be creepy and predatory.

harlemjd--exactly, well said.

This whole thing is creepy because there's always that chance that if the guy asks and the woman says no, he'll DO IT ANYWAY. That's the thought that pops into my head on every date I go on, every time I'm in a bar with my friends...

Maybe the people who don't understand why this thing is damaging are MEN, who, let's face it, don't live with the threat of rape in quite the way the rest of us do.

It really skeeves me out that this thing is referred to as a "project"...as others have said, good for you if you were there and had a positive experience. But can't you also put yourself in other women's shoes and consider why this is troubling, considering how male-dominated this sector is?

Fair. All I can say is, one assumes, they were judicious in the types of people that they'd ask about the project.

The Ferret claims that they only asked those people who they believed would be amenable to it.

The people who were asked were women (the Ferret said nothing of asking men if they wanted to be groped). So, how exactly can you tell what type of woman "would be amenable to it" just by looking at them? Unless you are asshat that employs sexist stereotypes (as evidenced by Ferret himself who referenced the fact that a woman's attire helped them determine who was "amenable" to the "project"), you can't. Sorry, but only asking women in tight shirts isn't judicious, it's sexist.

What a steamin' pot o' wrong.

I am compelled to point out that the gentleman who refers to himself as a malodorous weasel-like creature assumes the privilege to:

1) Reduce women to their boobs. (There is no opting in or out of this, if it has already been done, it is done.)

2) Objectively declare said boobs to be "good enough" to secure the Almighty Male Sexual Approval. (That some women may indeed seek this Holy Grail is immaterial.)

3) Then speak for everyone. (His intentions were unfailingly benevolent and it worked out well for him. Hence, there is not a problem. STFU.)

4) Defend to the bitter end his option to exercise 1 through 3.

Also, the "groping" of boobs, while sometimes assumed by certain men (*ahem* porn-addled *ahem*) to be sexually stimulating for women, seldom actually is. The "groping" deal is rather one sided. I might be more inclined to consider the "you may lick my clit" movement.

This reminds me of the 1991 Tailhook scandal. I remember when this took place and the media made it out to be just some boys having fun, but that was an extreme misrepresentation. I ended up doing a retrospective conversion project with Government Documents and one of the documents I inventoried was the congressional hearings concerning this incident. What those men did was heinous and criminal. The public was not given any of the salient details and it all got swept under the rug. Seems like it was a lot easier to get away with that kind of obfuscation and deceit before the internet.

It's the Open Source Who Gives a Fuck What Midwestern Tech Nerds do at A Sci-Fi Convention Project!

Um, yeah, there's this election and this war...

I'm not saying your reactions are unwarranted so much as... Come ON, it's a stupid idea, right from the get-go. Ain't like this shit has legs. If anything I'm in a much better to be pissed off position because douchebags like this make respectable progressive chick-positive meganerds like myself have to do an awful-lot of apologizing.

Pengo, you are not a respectable progressive chick-positive meganerd if you deign to tell women what should and should not matter to them. It is a huge anti-feminist straw-man to say, "You shouldn't care about X issue because Y and Z exists!" You're trying to impose your opinion of what is most important on us. That's anti-feminist. Also, and this might be hard to understand, but we can care about more than one issue at once. THIS thread is about this issue. Shall we direct you to other threads about the war and the economy? If you took two second to look through this site, you would find them.

You need to do a lot more learning, listening, and thinking before you can consider yourself a progressive. We'd love to have you join us, we'll give you some guidance if you're really willing to listen. But you're off to a shit start.

Further proof that Communal Boobs sound great on paper, but don't work in practice.

Honestly, this guy is really only guilty of taking his "Brilliant at 3 am" idea and putting it in a space where not everyone "was there".

I'm more than a bit disappointed by the threats of physical violence and rampant lookism that this guy's critics seem to display.

A lot of people here seem to be stating that this guys idea is that if you don't want people running up and groping you, you must have a "no" button.

From what I can tell, this is a misrepresentation. He seems to not know where the "no" buttons came from, and from what I can tell, the default was always "no", the "no" buttons were mostly redundant, except as to say "i know about it, but i'm not into it."
As a totally "opt in if you want to, if not that's cool, the default is no" type scheme, this isn't all that offensive. As I said above, kinksters, swingers and gay folk have been using hankerchief systems for decades to proclaim that an individual is into this or that activity. This guy just reinvented the wheel, and had the poor judgement to write about it in a slightly skeezy manner.

I'm getting a laugh out of all the "if he ever tried that on me, i'd karate chop him then do a double back flip groin kick and eviscerate all his friends and maybe his unconcieved children as well through the sheer force of my hate" people. I guess internet tough-guys are everywhere, including feminist boards.

CtoC - All responsible kinksters and swingers that I know of have systems and safety precautions to make sure that everyone is safe and comfortable. This project didn't.

An example of a way they could have done this that would have been much more respectful? Advertise the project but give buttons to people who want to participate as touchers, not touchees. Then make a rule that touchers may not initiate contact. Then the project would be much more likely to be a no-pressure, opt-in situation.

Yes. This was a poor reinvention of the wheel, yet I"m not seeing the huge difference between this system and the handkerchief one.

Lets take an easy example. Someone who likes to be spanked wears a say... red handkerchief. We'll call him chip. A spanker sees the handkerchief and wants to spank. We'll call her Sarah.
Sarah: i see you're wearing a red handkerchief, that sometimes means you are into being spanked. Perhaps i could spank you sometime
Chip: sure! (or no way!)
end scene.

as opposed to this open source silliness:

Sarah: hey, you're wearing a green button, can i fondle your junk?
Chip sure!

or

chip: hey, button, can i grope your chest?
sarah: y/n

As for safety procedures and all that, none of thatcomes into effect until after the decision to play has been made.

Yeah, plastroncafe, so nice to be you. This is a guy who said women should be beaten for giving in to men, who's said that women who want attention can't complain when they get it, who has said more than a few times that women who ask sexily are asking for it, and so on.

This is not a nice guy. He is an asshole about women. Which raises the question: what about the people defending him. He may be nice to you, but he thinks women ask for it, he likes to exploit them, and he thinks he should get to decide whether a pregnant woman continue or end her pregnancy.

Republican hippie. He wants free love and total control of womens' bodies. Why are people even bothering with this shite?

Sign me up for one of those 'please don't kick me in the balls' buttons too.

But this has me thinking....

When we get to the day when women are no longer sex objects, and power is equally distributed between the genders, I think a lot of men would enjoy walking around with a green 'ask if you'd like to fondle me' button.

At least I would. I'm a total slut.

Handkerchief system = not gender specific, focuses on no specific body part that someone feels entitled to grab.

Boob project = targets women, focuses on a specific body part to which women are reduced each day in the media, on the street, and in casual conversation AND which someone feels entitled to grab.

How many other ways is there to say this? Are you people on crack?

ginmar, did you read his story Why I Can't Rape My Wife?

http://www.theferrett.com/showarticle.php?Rant=24

Fascinating. I mean, what gal doesn't like a good rape fantasy?

"Yes. FAIL. But rather than dwell on the Ferrett's many failures, I choose instead to heartily endorse the "Open Source Swift Kick to the Balls Project."

What's with the hate? Why does the feminist take on an issue inevitably lead to kicking someone in the balls? Simone de Beauvoir never kicked anyone in the balls.

Besides, it's a double standard if you argue for sexual liberation, but chastise people who want to be groped. If there's ever a revival of this project, I'm wearing a kilt with an extra-large "yes you may" and daring anyone to say I'm not revoltingly, pervertedly egalitarian.

Oh god, I'm sure half of these guys were goons and had bigger breasts then the women they were touching. Another way to show how out of touch some of these people are with society. Probably wish life was just like Second Life or something.

marcus - i don't agree that this kind of thing deserves a violent "kick in the balls," but i don't think you understand how offensive this really is to a lot of women. the idea, when stated by ferret, comes off as an attempt to dehumanize and objectify women, to presume that their breasts are there for the groping for any man. i don't think "the feminist take" always leads to kicking people in the balls; i think that is just a visceral reaction by readers to the image of this situation happening to them. (honestly - there's no need to imagine that all feminists want to kick you in the balls, especially since many feminist actually ARE men.)
this violent response occurs because this "movement" isn't about sexual liberation; it's about sexual objectification. it's not about getting off on touching/being touched by random strangers. it's about reducing women - smart women, presumably, if they are at a con like that - to their breasts. admittedly most of us weren't there and don't know the exact circumstances; however, as reported, the whole deal reeks of sexist objectification, and i for one would not like to see it become a worldwide trend, however "miraculous" theferret thinks it is.

Stupid adolescent fantasy. They should offer to be groped by each woman they grope. I'm so disappointed that there are men who act this way...

artemiscuous,

"as reported, the whole deal reeks of sexist objectification"

Exactly. From the initial descriptions of the project, to the backpedaling clarifications, this whole thing is about objectification.

A few factual inaccuracies in some of these posts which should probably be cleared up:

1. Men's penises were also groped by women
2. Women groped other women
3. It was started by women groping other women, and then expanded to include men
4. Default assumption was you did not want to be included; had to give consent and indicate you wanted to participate

Having read through all the comments and various accounts of the events, the main issue I and other feministing posters have really isn't so much what happened - consenting adults can do what they want - it's how this creep wrote about and how this guy seems to view women and their bodies. That's where the real issue in all this is. To me at least.

HoneyBee: the man promoting the even specifically rejected the notion that women should be able to grope men's penises because it was too sexual. If women did it anyway, how many men groped women without asking or after having been told "no?"

Also, for the women-groping-women thing, are you aware of male gaze?

He can't rape his wife? Well fucking bully for him! As he's written in the past---and IN THIS FUCKING POST FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, how did you miss that?---women ask for it all the time. This is the guy who wrote, "They're not rapists, they're enthusiasts."

Yeah, thanks, this is not a feminist-friendly guy. He's advocated beating women and has said several times how they ask for it. Just because he's pretentious and a geek he's got people fooled. Here's a hint: feminists are what they do and say. What this asshole has said many times in the past has proven he's an enemy of women, at least the ones outside of his circle.

Ugh, this whole thing just creeps me out. Creepier still is this essay the Ferret wrote about "the day [he] killed the only child [he] ever had".

I agree with ginmar - enemy of women, indeed.

The Open Source Swift Kick to the Balls is nice & all, but a more practical solution is the Open Source Women Back Each Other Up Project. We have buttons! and soon a better website! (backupproject.org)

"This is the guy who wrote, "They're not rapists, they're enthusiasts.""

Context

Just so you have it. Because, absent it, one might thing you were accusing Ferret of excusing actual rapists.

"Creepier still is this essay the Ferret wrote about "the day [he] killed the only child [he] ever had"."

Could you elaborate on where your problem with this is? I've read it a few times, and while it's creepy, it's creepy in the way any story about a teenage boy taking his girlfriend to get an abortion would be.

Nedlum, it's creepy when dudes make their girlfriends' abortions all about them - all about their loss and suffering. Give me a break.
He never *had* a child if his girlfriend's pregnancy was terminated.
I bet his grief is compounded when he imagines the "baby" as a boy, natch.

"Nedlum, it's creepy when dudes make their girlfriends' abortions all about them - all about their loss and suffering."

It's *his LJ*. How in the world could he possibly describe her thoughts on the matter? He isn't saying that she didn't have profound feelings on the procedure; just that, not being her, he didn't feel them.

There are three possible actions he could take. He speculates on the feelings of someone whose head he is not in. He writes the essay he wrote. Or he doesn't write at all, and his feelings are simply ignored.
Abortion, takes a toll on both partners. I don't see the harm in acknowledging it.

Definitely bits and pieces of this guys stuff is creepy. "Why I Can't Rape My Wife" is a really unfortunate title. The boob-groping experiment is pretty adolescent, of course...

That being said, I think I actually like a lot of what he writes about this stuff, too.

Nedlum: on the context you provided about his remarks that rapists=enthusiasts: WTF? The post made my stomach turn. It does NOT make what he said better... in fact, it just goes to show how much he means it (in a faux-ironic "just kidding! but seriously" way, no less).

About the people who have been disappointed in the lookism surrounding theferrett and this incident... yeah. This is a hard one. On the one hand, I completely agree, and overall I do think it's better to shut down the body elitism machine altogether.

On the other hand, though, this dickwad is the king of judging women by their looks. I have to say I won't lose sleep over the turnabout here, because it's infuriating that men feel they have the privilege to rank and judge women's bodies, no matter how gross their own are.

He shouldn't be apologizing, he should be thanking all the women he assaulted (and conspired to assault) for not pressing criminal charges.

"It does NOT make what he said better."

I disagree. Lacking in context, it sounded to me like Ferrett was defending rapists. In context, it turns out that he's trying to figure out why a woman who dresses to attract would be offended if a man is either clueless or guileless enough to state his attraction in the most forthright/tactless manner.

I understand that his essay might be seen as poor taste, and I could see why you might (and if I'm putting words in your mouth, I apologize, but you're not really explaining your reaction beyond saying what it is) feel he's objectifying women.

But Ginmar, to be blunt, is quote-mining. Divorced form context, the statement sounds like a defense of rapists as just people who are more enthusiastic about having sex than their victims are. In context, it means something else entirely.

"he should be thanking all the women he assaulted (and conspired to assault) for not pressing criminal charges."

tps12: With all respect: One can fire all manner of accusation at the Ferrett. The ones you think the legal system should be pressing him with, however, are not among them.

Because of those who took part, only one person (that I've seen. If others exist, I missed them) has real misgivings. And she never even saw the Ferrett. No one who was directly affected by this, to my knowledge, is calling it "assault". And they're the only ones who can actually decide whether they felt assaulted or not.

Nedlum, I think that you're correct in that what bothers us about Ferret's writing is that it objectifies women. I would like to take it one step further and say that we're also bothered because his writing routinely objectifies women. The continual framing of supposedly "enlightened" and libertine sexual opinions in crass, objectifying terms does not give the indication that he respects women or appreciates them in non-sexual contexts. It also appears that he only recognizes and condemns the most egregious of violations of a woman's bodily integrity. One does not get the impression that he has any real awareness of the daily low-grade sexism most women are exposed to at work, during their commutes, while socializing with friends, etc.

Why then does this bother us? Because he's being defended as a deep down "good guy" and his opinions are being defended as woman- or body-positive. But they aren't and they display a consistent ignorance of women's issues. His views are further being picked up and championed by various other nerds who are similarly blind.

It does seem that in some ways Ferret is being overly targeted for being a privileged white male nerd on the internet. There are lots of them and there is plenty of similar sexist gibberish plastered all over the net. It's just a pity that we can't point out the sexism and exploitation inherent in the "Open Source Boob Project" (not the "Open Source Boobs and Balls Project") and get a sincere recognition of the women's issues bound up in our complaints.

How hard is it to sincerely apologize for not considering the perspectives of others? Or just admit that something was written in poor taste without defending yourself to the hilt? Seriously, I think a two-line post saying "I'm sorry, that was a bad idea. I like to think of myself as a feminist ally, so I'll try to be more considerate in the future" would have made all this blow over much faster.

Honestly, I think that sort of approach to these mini-scandals should just be taken every time. It's hell of a lot more effective than saying "I'm sorry that you're offended."

I just saw an article which reminded me of this post:

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/national/news/20080424p2a00m0na007000c.html

"Japanese man under fire in Philippines for tapping woman's bottom at airport," (Mainichi Japan) April 24, 2008

"...Local authorities say the man tapped the bottom of the governor's 26-year-old daughter, who happens to be a lawyer, while collecting his luggage that had arrived at Manila airport from Cebu on the morning of April 8.

"The lawyer took exception to his behavior, and the man was taken into custody by immigration officials and detained on suspicion of violating immigration laws through 'undesirable' behavior.

"In comments to a major newspaper, the lawyer said that after the incident, the man told her that hitting a woman's bottom was a custom of Japanese men. The female lawmaker has requested a harsh punishment, saying that more respect should be shown to Filipino women..."

I totally agree that this guy's essay was gross, sexist and objectifying... but it giving him free publicity really the way to go here? He's a NOBODY -- without this feminist condemnation, his idiotic idea would have faded away in a matter of days. Now there might be chauvinistic men who carry it forward just to piss off the "feminazis." I love it when you guys post examples of ridiculous sexism from respected sources, like politicians or newspapers or television programs, but how is this any different than a headline reading "Construction Worker Whistles At Passing Woman." It's sexist and repulsive, for sure, but is it really news? Ferret is experiencing his 15 seconds of fame as we speak, and as far as I can tell it's thanks to feminist blogs, and I bet there's a big part of him that's enjoying all the attention. I'm not defending him in any way, but I really feel this hoo-hah is going to extend the half life of his ridiculous "project."

Wow, look at Nedlum defend this guy.

Joshua, I know--whenever somebody says something horrible about women, let's just pretend it didn't happen. This guy has a long history of hating women. Nedlum, try not to be such an ass kisser. TF's not here. You can kiss his ass but the saliva dripping is getting to be kind of messy.