W.T.F.

Yeah, nothing like making women feel they are AUTOMATICALLY victims first, other, there for the taking. OH, but it's okay because they are PERMITTED to offer a YAY OR NAY first. And what of the women who opted to wear NO button?

This is so pathetic and yet so infuriating. Count me in on your idea for a new "open source" project, except I may aim at their heads.

"Nevermind the fact that only women were the gropees."

And judging by the look of the Ferret, most of those tech dudes probably have big luscious breasts as well.

As a woman software engineer...

Tech women, like women in many male-dominated fields, seek approval, and must often work twice as hard as males to gain it.
This is peer pressuring women into doing something uncomfortable. They are super-vulnerable to this type of abuse in the tech field because of the aforementioned insecurities and difficulties gaining acceptance.

I'd like to take ths opportunity to decline a Swift Kick In The Balls.

As I said to someone else in a discussion about it elsewhere, I would have worn a green button specifically so that when they asked me I could tell them to get bent.

Noted, Tom. I'll be sending you a "NO, you many not" button in the mail shortly.

Gosh, and here I was worried that women in tech fields still faced issues with androcentrism and the "chilly climate."

I'm a professional in science fiction and fantasy publishing. I'm not going to any cons this year because I'm pregnant and not flying, but if any guy tried that on me at a con, they'd get their teeth knocked in. Yeah, it's "not tawdry." Sure it's not, guys groping women's breasts at a convention. Ugh. "Excuse me, can I grab your balls and twist? No? But it's not tawdry or anything..."

A great point, geeky girl.

"So apparently at a software convention called ConFusion, a bunch of guys were standing around and talking about how awesome the world would be if they could just reach out and grab any woman's boobs. And a woman near them piped up that they could touch her breasts, and they all proceeded to grope her."

This is horribly inaccurate.

From the clarification post:

The original group was pretty firmly mixed: three women, four men. The originators of the Project were women, who asked first, and received first, with the men asking afterwards. In fact, it started out as women exploring each other.

You also make it sound as though these were complete strangers, when they weren't. It was a group of seven friends.

"Nevermind the fact that only women were the gropees."

(I should note that the men were also touched, but frankly, feeling my man-boobs and Ferrett-butt is a thrill few people appreciate. And rightfully so! Though other, more attractive males apparently got a lot more interest, both at the first and the second con.)

I realize that when trash such as this comes along, it's really easy to get angry and let things get lost in the ether, but it'd be cool to both be angry and not report inaccuracies.

Nevermind the fact that only women were the gropees

Some men say they were groped and happy to have been groped, but a) they're trying to use that as a reason for the project not being so bad, and b) one doubts they'd be happy to be groped or asked by just anyone.

I'm still in shock. Maybe I'm just a sentimental old fool, but the Free Open Source Software(FOSS) movement is supposed to be about respecting members of the FOSS community.

A lot of us in the FOSS movement are unhappy that it is so white and male. And yes, there is a lot of sexism and racism. If you read the forums over at the popular Open Source site Slashdot, you'll find it soon enough.

But you will also find people who criticize the boys locker room atmosphere and are fighting for gender and racial equity in IT.

I'm baffled by the men and women who went along with this. It is so antithetical to the ideals of Open Source.

All I can say is that there are a lot of us Open Source people who are horrified and disgusted.

Mac the Libertarian, this Bud's for you.

Mac, I realize that's how it started. But if the "project" were intended to be among friends, I don't think they would have required buttons.

i know violence isn't good, but seriously...if this guy approached me and asked to touch my boobs, I would love to grab the nearest object and pound him over the head with it...or, maybe a simple punch in the shnoz would do..

It wasn't intended to be among friends. Go back and read the original post.

It's about treating women's bodies as public, communal property; it's about reminding women that we are, first and foremost, objects for male sexual delectation; it's about forcing women to define ourselves physically and sartorially by men's desire to grab our breasts. The science-fiction/fantasy fandom world is pretty fucking pissed off about this.

In the original post, a group of people approach a young woman none of them know and ask if they can grope her. It was not among friends, and that is an inherently threatening situation.

annejumps, I'm not sure if you're accusing me of trying to defend the project against charges that it's misogynistic or sexist, or saying that I hold the naive belief that because it was ostensibly "opt-in" that it was somehow okay, or whatever.

In fact, all I was saying is that the original post contains inaccuracies, both about the origin of the project and events that occurred. It makes demonstrably false statements, and I think those should be remedied.

It doesn't change the underlying nature of the project, the fact that it reduced women to their breasts and incited a mass peer pressure situation in which women were expected to let people grope their breasts, or that it implicitly validated or did not validate women based on their breasts or their general physique.

That does not excuse falsehoods in challenging it. It was not "a bunch of guys standing around talking about how great it would be if they could grope womens' breasts," but a bunch of friends in which one of the women declared how great it would be if she could grope people's breasts, and a few males who thought "Hey! This'd be a great way for me to grab some tits", and between latent sexism and the Geek Social Fallacies, what should have been A Piece Of Shit got branded as A Great Idea instead among a particular community.

So, to distill down what I was saying for you:
When attacking something that is fundamentally wrong, making false statements is still not justified.

Is that better?

When I first heard about this I was horrified-- you want to touch your friend's boobs, fine. But it's a big leap from that to assuming any stranger who's "dressed to impress" won't mind getting felt up by random horndogs. But after going to the original thread, it makes me very tickled to see so many women putting this perv in his place.

Wow! How topical is this? I am right now researching open source software licenses for a project at work, and I attended the Romantic Times convention last weekend, where the gender distribution was probably the polar opposite of ConFusion.

This story sounds like a high school geek lunch table conversation gone awry. A little fantasizing about the cheerleaders over meatloaf and whipped potatoes, and all of a sudden, you are getting hate mail from across the world. The dangers of the Internet brought home.

While I am at it, I also would like to opt out of the ball-kickee club. Thanks for the offer and all, but I'll just sit here quietly in the corner.

The best (satirical, obviously) response I've seen so far: The Open Source African Hair Project.

As has been said on Something Positive: "These are not free range boobies!"

I saw this last night, and I think this is one of my favourite lines:

For a moment, everything that was awkward about high school would fade away and you could just say what was on your mind. It was as though parts of me were being healed whenever I did it, and I touched at least fifteen sets of boobs at Penguicon. It never got old, surprisingly.

If you need therapy to get over what happened in high school, go to a fucking therapist and leave me and my breasts out of it. My body is NOT here to make you feel better about yourself.

But then there's this:

By the end of the evening, women were coming up to us. "My breasts," they asked shyly, having heard about the project. "Are they... are they good enough to be touched?"

HOLY SHIT that is the saddest thing I've ever heard that didn't involve someone being tortured or dying. Stupid, stupid patriarchy. :(

I'm so glad to see this here! It's caused enormous ripples throughout LJ and Feminist SF and computer communities. I heartily endorse the "Open Source Swift Kick to the Balls Project."

Also, some good commentary at Feminist SF - The Blog!: http://blogs.feministsf.net/?p=340

For those of you not technologically inclined, "open-source" software means the code is available for anyone to use. All-access. Everyone has a right to it. Just like women's bodies! (Get it? They're so clever!)

As a Free Software developer (I have a longstanding dislike of the term "open source", but we won't go into that here), I'd like to take this opportunity to say that even if this crap wasn't annoying me for its misogyny and violation of personal autonomy, which it is (and I could go on for paragraphs about how much that pisses me off, but it's all been said by some amazing people already), it annoys me by appropriating the goodwill that the community has built up around giving away free-as-in-speech software over the last twenty-odd years.

(and don't just take my word for it: Matthew Garrett is one of the core Linux developers and he said much the same.)

Just FYI...Ferrets are not rodents. They're mustelids, in the same family as weasels and polecats. It's a pretty common mistake. ;)

This is pretty reprehensible, but in my experience is not an insane way of thinking at a convention. I used to go to anime conventions, and while I was once told I was 'prostituting' myself by offering a free hug if you bought a drawing from me (Not a pervy hug, just a regular one), generally most people would jump at a chance to freely fondle breasts(men and women alike). It's like all societal rules are suspended inside a convention, and yes, even the girls can get swept up in it too.

Not saying it's right, just that I've been there and I know/understand the mindset.

Right on prairielily, EG, and Marce!

Actually, the swift fierce mass response was from the science fiction community, not from the tech community so much. Though they intersect, this was science fiction fandom in action.

The feminist sf/media community on LJ has been all over this proposal as well (and Ferret Face has posted an apology and retraction of sorts--which I find less than compelling).

But what I really want to note is the incredible post by Vito_Excalibur:

The Open Source Women Back Each Other Up Project!

http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/173664.html?view=3724640#t3724640

Following paragraph is quote from VE's LJ:

"I would like to start the Open Source Women Back Each Other Up Program. Here's my pledge: if I see somebody groping you in public, and you're not moaning Yes! Yes! Yes!, I will break through your Somebody Else's Problem invisibility field and come over and ask if you're okay. If your situation looks dangerous enough I can't help on my own, I will call over friends or, if it's a situation in which I think the cops would be on your side, I will call the cops. If you're being harassed by a guy, you can say so to me, even if you don't know me. I pledge I will distract him so you can get away, or I will tell him that he needs to leave, or whatever I can do to the best of my ability. I pledge that yes, actually, because you are a woman I will give you the benefit of the doubt. If you tell me that a guy just did something shitty to you I will not refuse to look at any evidence and tell you that I know him and he's a great guy and you must have been imagining things. I have great loyalty to my male friends but I will not allow that to blind me to the fact that none of us are saints and even my best friends can screw up and may need to be called on it. I pledge that I will walk you to your car if you don't feel safe walking alone at night, and then you can drive me to mine."

NOTE: As discussed in the comments, "guy" is generally agreed to be gender-neutral term in this context!

Better url: the original one led to a comment thread.

Sorry!

http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/173664.html

There are a number things I'm finding really frustrating about this and the discussions elsewhere.

1. This stuff happens at sci-fi/gaming/comic conventions all the time. I was once picked up and carried off by a Klingon at Orycon. I was playing in a vampire LARP! Trying to make it legitimate? Yeah, NO. That the Ferret is trying to make it this whole big thing proves that men + hobbie conventions = deeply inappropriate.

2. The assumption women go to non-professional conventions to get attention from men. Really? REALLY?

3. That I'm having to explain over and over again that the question itself is harassment. That no woman should ever have to say no to that question from a stranger. This is no better than catcalls, just has allegedly better educated participants.

ARGH.

I'm really glad bigger blogs picked up on this though. Geek/gaming women have been dealing with people like The Pauly Shore Wanna Be for ages. It's frustrating, to say the least.

Tiffany...great post and I hear you. Con culture is hard to describe to people who don't go to them, but we already deal with being women in sexualized spaces ALL THE TIME and sometimes it gets worse at cons. I've been fairly lucky, but have also been touched without my permission because men thought it was okay based on either 1. what I was wearing 2. because I was dancing/drinking/walking 3. because "anything goes" at a con, etc.

I'm glad to see such an incredible response from the SF and gaming and geek communities on this though....that's heartening. :)

I'll just second what Xana said; this sort of shitty behavior takes place at cons all the time; this just brought it to the forefront. Here's hoping this "Project" turns out to be a persistent dialogue-starter.

Ann, fantastic post and I agree with you 100%, but I confess I'm disturbed by the picture you included. Anyone could see that same image just by following a link to the original post - I have to ask, is it there for the same reason that many anti-feminists use bad shots of feminists and other women, to discredit someone by means of their appearance? (This happens to Clinton a lot, sadly, and she's hardly the only recipient of 'ha ha, feminists are so UGLY, lol' sentiment). I feel like there's no need for feminists to use that tactic - especially when this guy is so obviously full of sh!t anyway.

ummm . . . yeah. that's freaking scary, even in a "microcosm." I read his original post, and it is really creepy. Really, really creepy. Creepy, creepy. Really, really.

What's creepy about it? It's his default icon.

"Here's hoping this "Project" turns out to be a persistent dialogue-starter."

Definitely. I hope this might be what it takes to make (ignorant) con-goers aware of the environment and hopefully we can move forward to put an end to such thoughts and behaviors and expectations of women at cons (whether they're dressed like Wonder Woman, Hermione Granger, or covered in a cowl). ;)

Er, that was a reply to Thene about the image at the top, not about the article itself. Sigh.

Three comments:

1. Please be clear that this has nothing, nothing, NOTHING to do with open source. Open source is a term which describes copyright terms, not access. The claim that this -- uh -- misguided idea has anything to do with "open source" is as chowderheaded as the idea that it has anything to do with healthy sexuality.

2. Sadly, the analogy Ann poses is inapt. While there are many things wrong with these buttons, they do not represent violence against women. Demeaning, objectifying, dehumanizing, yes, yes, yes; but violent, no. What we have here are a bunch of geeks who don't get laid enough finding a low-risk, immature way to express their sexuality. A better analogy might be to have buttons which would allow women to make a man drop trou and then rate his testicles on a scale from "puny" to "insufficient".

3. The button which was really missing from this misguided project was the one which read, "Fuck you for even thinking it."

Hi Xana!

I was really pleased, when I posted this to my Livejournal my male gamer/LARP/goth friends went gahadgadhghhg!!!! and thought it was just as sleazy. It's so nice to see that this is just a vocal minority. A dangerous one though.

For a community that's used to dealing with the strange and offbeat, you'd think it would be a little more aware of boundaries. But no.

ugh i have nothing to say that hasn't been said here already. this is completely disgusting. geek culture is sexist enough as it is without this crap.

One point that bothers me is that science fiction conventions are, for some of us, an extension of the work environment. What happens if the person asking to feel my breasts is an editor I desperately want to publish with? What if they run a prominent con? The whole dynamic just went pear shaped, because sure, I have the right to say no -- but I also have the right to have my career negatively impacted by that decision.

Boy, that's fair.

Is that the price of functioning as a professional in the science fiction/speculative fiction world? The sure knowledge that you have to go along with this type of thing because god knows who the askers are, and what position they hold, and what impact that will have on decisions they make about your work.

Hooray :(

"where one person are told with gropes and touches that they are desirable and the other is someone who's allowed to desire."

can we for once be allowed to desire instead of wanting to be desired? I'm so over wanting to be desired.

Who the hell IS this freak, and why hasn't he been Kochno-d yet?

I guess since he's a tech guy he's just so excited to finally make physical contact with a breast after a lifetime of not that he can't help but make a "project" out of it. But my question to him is this: why stop at tech conventions? Why not distribute these buttons to the general public? It would save all of us the trouble of telling you to go fuck yourself. What a fucking retard.

"When attacking something that is fundamentally wrong, making false statements is still not justified."

When apologizing for something you did wrong, nitpicking over semantics makes you sound a lot less genuine.

@ Dondo
"2. these buttons ... do not represent violence against women. Demeaning, objectifying, dehumanizing, yes, yes, yes; but violent, no. "

Are you insane? A bunch of dudes talking about a women's body part, totally decontextualized from her body, and about how awesome it would be to feel up on them? This isn't a joke, this is about taking a complex human being (who happens to have breasts) and boiling them down to oweners of a body part, or even down to just a body part.

halfawake,

"When apologizing for something you did wrong, nitpicking over semantics makes you sound a lot less genuine."

I didn't apologize for anything. I did not start the project, I did not participate in the project, I did not defend it.

However, if you think pointing out falsehoods in the original post is "something I did wrong" or "nitpicking over semantics", then that's a little scary. Being disingenuous, even in the pursuit of a good cause, is still disingenuous.

Ferret, your EPIC FAIL began at, "a bunch of guys were standing around and talking about how awesome the world would be if they could just reach out and grab any woman's boobs" -- wtf. Way to play into the "geeks are perverts" stereotype, you fucking moron.

I am just appalled that women would go along with this. After we've kicked the men around some more, can we talk about that? If it is insulting, violent, stupid etc for the men to treat women as available to them for groping (upon permission) is it self-abasing and submissive and male-approval-dependent for the women to let them? I don't buy the idea that the women are so terrified they can't say no.
Many women posting here say they would respond violently and vociferously if this happened to them. why do you think the women actually subjected to this humiliation didn't do what you say you would have done?

I just finished reading through his entry on LJ. He devotes thousands of words explaining to his fellow con-goers how they shouldn't participate in his insane project, but none of those words are directly devoted to apologizing to these women for encouraging treating them like blow-up dolls on a mass scale. He apologizes to the cons he attended for embarrassing them, and he offers a generic my-bad to anybody else he may have embarrassed. He rambles about how people should feel safe at conferences. But never does he actually say, "Ladies, I'm sorry for my behavior. I'm sorry I suggested large-scale objectification and pig behavior. I'm an asshole." He just flat doesn't do that. What a PRICK.

"(At least I’m fairly sure they didn’t have to worry about me at Penguicon. ConFusion, though? Even though I don’t recall asking anyone I didn’t know personally beforehand? It’s certainly possible I did harm – and if I embarrassed or humiliated anyone at either con, then I do apologize personally to you. As I apologize to anyone who now feels less safe going to cons, for whatever that is now worth.)

Cheers, Ann. I'm thinking I may post over there.

Mac,
I think I misread one of your bolded quotes as being something you were saying, which led me to think you were involved. Sorry. That said, nitpicking over the language in the post here makes your condemnation of the "project" (e.g. 'trash such as this comes along') sound less genuine. Ann's post didn't seem at all disingenuous, and I think her interpretation of what happened was right on.

Some Cat:

Something you have to understand about geek culture in almost all it's forms is it takes a lot for women to overcome being women.

The desire for acceptance in techie, gamer, sci-fi arenas is enough to encourage someone in a male dominated environment to say yes and go along with such stupidity. And often it's women who'd gladly tell someone where to go anywhere else.

Peer pressure in such a incestuous, insular and male dominated environment can be a powerful force.

I think linking to my earlier posts on this subject got me sent into moderation purgatory. (Check the link to my blog - they're the two most recent posts.)

But re the use of the picture and caption: I'm a bit uneasy about the appearance-based bashing, but since the guy tried to defend this "project" on the grounds of body-positivity and then talked about using attractiveness as a criterion for whether he'd proposition a woman, I can't bring myself to give much of a defense.

Men who most likely don't want to be judged for their looks, determining which women are "worthy" according to... their looks. Of course.

irishgirl1983 - huh? Isn't that what "dehumanizing" and "objectifying" mean?

I spent a lot of time arguing in those threads yesterday (handle: mexicanicepick) and this whole thing pissed the everloving crap out of me. That said, I think it's unfair to assume that Mac doesn't care or isn't genuine because he objects to factual inaccuracies; those don't often work to one's advantage.

Moreover—as Mac pointed out to me off this board—claiming that only women were being groped, in addition to being untrue, makes it sound like this project would have (which is to say, did) gain legitimacy if men were groped, too. The fact that men were also groped doesn't make this one bit better.

irishgirl1983 - huh? Isn't that what "dehumanizing" and "objectifying" mean?

Er, would have gained legitimacy.

Also, I mean, if it's worth it to correct the order to which ferrets belong, isn't it worth it to get the facts right?

The fact that the women who participated in the project at Penguicon each actively wanted to be a part of it apparently means little, because they’re apparently not qualified to make their own choices about how they want friends and acquaintances to approach them.

His apology isn't even an apology. It's just more you're-just-not-enlightened-or-empowered-enough-to-get-it tripe.

Is there a bingo card for Nice Guy (tm) comments? His apology reeks of Nice Guy-isms.

I think the thing that bothers me most is the standard that was there for whose boobs they would try to grope. The description of women asking if their breasts were "good enough" sickens me. This is not about making someone feel good for being able to share their body, it's another source of what is and isn't hot setting a standard for women to strive towards. "You won't grope me? no? Okay, I'm off to buy a pushup bra and a tube top, be back in twenty minutes."

I'm sad to say that I delved into the bowels of this genius' website and learned way too much about him. His blog is rife with misogynistic content, from jokes about being an abusive boyfriend to his porn obsession to how he became his wife's "bitch". I don't think he gives a shit about the women he objectified and put at risk with his little stunt. Like the little crap who sent the hate mail last week, I think he's just sorry he got called on it.

Scroll down past the weird cartoons for links to bizarre postings:

http://theferrett.livejournal.com/profile

Oh my goodness.

I didn't think he could get worse, then it did.

"Ok, so, how about you wear the buttons and people offer?" "Well no, because then people might judge me!"

Just. Agh.

A better analogy might be to have buttons which would allow women to make a man drop trou and then rate his testicles on a scale from "puny" to "insufficient".

I'm sorry, how is this a better analogy? In your analogy, no one is being touched – no physicality in your "analogy" at all. There wasn't assessing going on here, there was groping. The two are not equivalent.

really I think this guy is on to somehting
I could go for a vareity of buttons red and green representing responses to different common questions
they´d never have to be asked thye could just look through your button array
which would also allow people to stare at your boobs

Dondo - grabbing breasts is violent in that it's physically violating when one hasn't given consent or is pressured into giving consent. Perhaps a better analogy would be asking to grab men's balls.

However, I definitely support your idea for a pin saying "fuck you for even thinking it." I would definitely wear one. Perhaps keep one with me at all times, just in case.

Oh, come on, I would TOTALLY do this.

Assuming by "breasts" they meant "balls" and there was no standard on how hard they were allowed grabbed...

Oh, come on, I would TOTALLY do this.

Assuming by "breasts" they meant "balls" and there was no standard on how hard they were allowed to be grabbed...

Halfawake

That said, nitpicking over the language in the post here makes your condemnation of the "project" (e.g. 'trash such as this comes along') sound less genuine.
I'm sorry, but no. Insisting on factual accuracy from people who are speaking against something you dislike in no way makes your own opposition less genuine. In fact, as an advocate or opponent for any position, you have an obligation to make sure that the people who are representing your view point are sticking to the truth. You may detest the event, it may have been short sighted and immature, but you should always get your facts straight, especially when you are speaking to people who may not go and look at the initial posts. A few inaccuracies in the initial post can quickly snowball into comments that bear little or no similarity to reality.

Ann's post didn't seem at all disingenuous, and I think her interpretation of what happened was right on.

I am reasonably familiar with his writing, and when he posted this, I skimmed the first post and read the second. If I hadn't seen similar factual errors pop up in other people's responses to the posts, I probably would have assumed
exactly that.

The various people who made disparaging comments about his sexual experience and sex life
At the very least, I want to mention that he is happily married to a wonderful woman. (She's a lawyer who helped a couple of my favorite people on the net navigate the US immigration system when they decided to get married.)
Theferrett didn't start this program, he was just the public face. The other members of the group didn't blog about it in part because of the amount of trollish backlash that it was expected to generate. (Real quick, I want to make it clear that, factual errors aside, I don't think this analysis was trollish. I think it was honest and important, and not too far off from right. I personally think John Scalzi probably has the right of this one in his two part analysis here and here , but then my interpretation is colored by a longish history of reading what theferrett writes. What is actually trollish are comments like the ones in the original thread that fairly brutally attack his wife.) As I understand it, the other people who took part in developing this will eventually be posting about it, but they are going to wait for the total shitstorm to pass. (Not everyone is sanguine with the idea of being attacked in their home blogs.)