this cannot possibly end well.

Why not?

i hope this goes well. when the story first broke i thought "there's no way this will get positive coverage in the msm," but hopefully oprah will give a comprehensive, open-minded view of the issue. of course anything will be better than the "androgynous freak" comment made by letterman last night.

the whole dark, anticipatory music and 'is the world ready?' in the clip makes me worried about this just being a means of interpreting transfolks as other, rather than being a show that debunks transphobic cisgendered folks' 'fears'.

also, why the 'inside the nursery!' bit? as though their nursery is going to be radically different because he's the one giving birth, or they're a family with a trans parent? i don't get it.

It's hard enough for us (transfolk) to get our legal status corrected to match our gender. Many of us predict that this will make it even harder, with states closing down the loopholes that have allowed us to change our legal statuses without expensive, sometimes unattainable, and sometimes undesired surgeries.

You know, "we must stop this kind of thing from happening in the future." That mindset.

I agree with sarahp .. I hope Oprah does a good job with this .. but we will see tomorrow ..

I don't understand.
Did he choose not to have a phalloplasty (I think I spelled that wrong, but I'm too lazy to look it up) or is he just going to have a C-section. Not that it really matters, I'm just curious.

@ talknormal: I don't know what you mean. The only problem I see is the medical community denying him pre-natal care. For all the right's talk of protecting fetuses, they don't seem to give a damn about this one.

"also, why the 'inside the nursery!' bit? as though their nursery is going to be radically different because he's the one giving birth, or they're a family with a trans parent? i don't get it.

Maybe it's a - they're not really different from other parents - type segment. I remember when I was struggling to overcome my homophobic upbringing one of the most important things that I experienced was overhearing a couple talking in the grocery store. They were just trying to figure out what fruit to buy, but you could tell that they were so in love. It fundamentally changed me to recognize that these two people loved each other in the same way I hoped someone would love me someday.

Anywho...hopefully that what its about and its not some fascination with the scary other.

Sorry I was being taciturn and curmudgeonly before.

Whatever the host's intentions, personally I have yet to witness a trans person appear on a talkshow (trans folks are all over talk shows!) and not have the whole thing end up as a massive cringe fest.

Not that it can't potentially still be a positive, edifying experience for some straight women who've never given any thought to the matter before, but I do grow really weary of seeing trans folks as perpetual curiosities/educators.

If I'm being self-critical I'd say I'm probably being unduly negative about Beatie because, while its great that he has the courage to go public with his reproductive choices the selfish part of me gets bummed that his story means I end up reading the most inane hateful drivel on, eg, Fox News.

Also Yoshimi, I think you're right. It's really none of our business at all whether he had a phalloplasty.

"also, why the 'inside the nursery!' bit? as though their nursery is going to be radically different because he's the one giving birth, or they're a family with a trans parent? i don't get it."

Home stuff is really popular nowadays, and I think that's all there is to it. Talking about how a nursery is decorated will get more people to watch.

It's like if there was a show on some sports star, i wouldn't be interested. However, if they said, "and we'll be showing footage of the sports star's new puppy" I might want to watch.

It's always so hard to tell from promos. They rarely accurately depict the actual feature. It will either be much better, or even worse, I suspect.

The line that pisses me off is "do you think this country, this world is ready?"

It's not up to the country or the world. It's none of their fucking business!

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed and hold my breath that Oprah doesn't screw this up. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if she does, though.

I don't think it is right for this person to have been denied medical care, but I don't entirely blame the doctors and other members of the medical community for denying service. Most people in the medical profession train (both studying and serving internships) for years in their specialty, and therefore feel confident in dealing with any situation. This situation is something I am sure they NEVER studied, or even thought about. I would not be surprised if they did not feel competent to handle this person's situation. However, it was very cowardly to charge this couple thousands of dollars and then change their minds.

heller,
what is drastically different about this medically? All I can think of is that he has been on T for several years. But now he's not.

I don't see what is drastically different about this medically either. So how are doctor's able to deny him care? They are discriminating against him for being a trans person and that's wrong. Like cantdance said, it's just a normal pregnancy except that he's been on hormones.

Heller,

Even though he is now living as a man, he is still biologically female. It's stated in the Advocate article that he stopped taking hormones and his body started to regulate after a few months.

Given all of that information, this isn't a drastically different situation. There isn't an actual medical reason for why they are not treating him. It has more to do with their comfort levels and seeing a pregnant man.

He should've never been denied medical care. Doctors are uncomfortable because he's challenging their privilege as nontrans persons, as people who assume we all fit into neat gender categories.

Looking at Oprah's website, I think she's done some passable shows on trans people before, so hopefully it'll turn out. I'll have to tivo.

Quick question:
Can anyone point me to a good book concerning the issues around the oppression of trans-gender individuals?

I've been reading some scattered essays and articles about the subject recently because I realized that of all the marginalized people groups in this culture, I sadly know the least about the situation for trans-gender individuals.

Help me out! I really want to learn more.

Thanks for clarifying, talknormal. I know it's none of my business, I'm just a nosey person, especially about childbirth right now because my sister is pregnant:)

changethings,

read transgender warriors by leslie feinberg.

I first read about this man here at feministing and i thought the advocate article was really great. a day later i saw it on the yahoo front page saying "man who used to be woman 'claims' to be pregnant" The video was so offensive, making him more into a freakshow than anything else. i hope oprah does a good job with the story.

"'also, why the 'inside the nursery!' bit? as though their nursery is going to be radically different because he's the one giving birth, or they're a family with a trans parent? i don't get it.'

"Maybe it's a - they're not really different from other parents - type segment."

Like "surprise, it's on the nicer side of normal!"?

"I don't see what is drastically different about this medically either. So how are doctor's able to deny him care? They are discriminating against him for being a trans person and that's wrong."

I'm reminded of when I was in school and the health center had flyers all over about how transsexuals have the same rights as other patients. Also, it seemed as if the administration had posted them instead of a student group.

"I don't see what is drastically different about this medically either. So how are doctor's able to deny him care? They are discriminating against him for being a trans person and that's wrong."

Yeah, there's a huge difference between "*you're* a freak, *you* don't deserve treatment" and "*I* don't trust my limited experience with treating your unusual case, *I* want to refer you to a doctor with more relevant experience, lemme check my resources and network to find someone good for you..."

Some of us would consider it an honor to provide care for someone who had such a sensitive personal situation.

He should've never been denied medical care. Doctors are uncomfortable because he's challenging their privilege as nontrans persons, as people who assume we all fit into neat gender categories.

Looking at Oprah's website, I think she's done some passable shows on trans people before, so hopefully it'll turn out. I'll have to tivo.

Oh, I would just love to hear what James Dobson has to say about this. After all, he's always said that "children do best on every measure of well-being when raised by their married mother and father," so this must be a good thing in his book, right?

The idea of a trans man is beyond the readers of my blog's willingness to understand.

I read in another article that he does still have a vagina, so even on that measure, it's still normal business.

He's HOT though. Maybe people just can't deal with how attractive he his. Maybe they want trans people to all be horrific so they can feel better about calling them freaks.

That is such a beautiful photograph. It literally brought tears to my eyes.
On-topic: I really, really hope they don't butcher the story. They probably will spin it and not get everything right, but the first step is to at least get people to understand that transgendered people *are* people. I'm wishing them happiness and lots of energy to deal with their baby and the people around them :)

The coverage of this story in the UK papers so far has been surprisingly positive, though it was only one left-wing daily that chose to question whether Thomas was really a man. The Sun which, for anyone who doesn't know, is the vilest right-wing tabloid arm of the Murdoch/Fox Empire has been surprisingly positive, though it did perpetuate the story that Thomas transitioned only because his home state didn't allow gay marriage.

I'm hoping there will be Torrents of this available after the show is broadcast.

I think it is important not to categorize people who have reservations about this story as privileged transphobes who wish to perpetuate the oppression of trans men and women.

astraevirgo said:
"Doctors are uncomfortable because he's challenging their privilege as nontrans persons, as people who assume we all fit into neat gender categories."

While this may be true, I think it is quite possible that doctors are uncomfortable for far more pedestrian reasons: namely, because this person, who is legally and socially male and who has undergone various medical procedures to advance toward biological male status, now wishes to re-invoke some degree of his female identity for the purposes of bearing a child. From a medical standpoint, one can imagine several problems doctors might have. For example, what effect (if any) might years of testosterone therapy have on the ability of this person's body to produce pregnancy hormones? Is this person, who has taken various (irreversible) steps toward becoming a man, psychologically prepared to accept the realities of pregnancy? Does this person have access to adequate resources and social support to deal with the inevitable fallout from friends, relatives, and society in general? What are the psychological and social implications for the child, who -- while born to loving, committed parents, it's true -- nonetheless undoubtedly will be known as "the kid whose dad gave birth to her".

I think these are legitimate questions, as is the other obvious question in this case: isn't this person trying to have it "both ways" by reaping the social/cultural benefits of maleness AND the reproductive/childbearing benefits of femaleness? Asking this question will no doubt raise the ire of some here, but like it or not it is a question that will be asked over and over as this case gains recognition in the media.

It is one thing to believe, as many of us do, that gender (and gender identity) is a continuum and that people need not fit into simplistic and/or unitary categories of "male" or "female". However, to dismiss people who have questions or concerns about this story as narrow-minded, trans-hating bigots is reductionist and ignores the complicated medical, legal, social, psychological, and ethical issues this case raises.

Look out - it's crazy time with Jill Stanek!
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/04/manternity.html

The post is titled "Manternity" (har har). She's so full of hate, it blows my mind...

I really hope Oprah handles this well. I find her annoying, but I will admit she tends to handle these kinds of sensitive and controversial topics better than other outlets.

And that Yahoo headline...he "claims" to be pregnant? "Claims," especially when in quotes, implies that he is lying about it, or at least that is can't be proven. I'm pretty sure the goddamn sonogram is proof enough.

Curses, my awesome post is lost to the depths of cyberspace. Now I will paraphrase!

I had asked something about whether we would so doggedly explore alternate explanations for the behavior of healthcare professionals if the possibility of gender discrimination here concerned a nontrans woman. As everyone here is aware, folks rarely proclaim, eg, "I did that because I am SEXIST." Similarly, healthcare professionals often cite clinical reasons for denying care to trans people.

Oh and the other thing I was going to say was about having a cake and eating it too: that's TOTALLY why I became trans! Pimp the system! Seriously, I urge you all to try it: it is an excellent way to CHEAT at life and reap all the benefits of all possible genders with negligible drawbacks. (No really, why do people actually think that?)

Also I think that the future psychological wellbeing of a child is an excellent reason to discourage unconventional family formations, like ones with pregnant dads or gay parents or single moms. Just kidding.

Seriously though, a couple blogs notwithstanding, I am a little surprised at the lack of response to this story from the feminist/reproductive rights ilk-- I would think this falls pretty squarely in the realm of reproductive politics. Anyone have thoughts? Also if this is being discussed and I've been missing it, I would be happy to know.

Crimgal, that was *brilliant* and well put. The idea of parenthood/being pregnant is sometimes scary enough for those of us who live as women and who have always wanted children. There are a lot of psychological factors involved with bearing & rearing children that cannot be left out of the equation.
----------

crimgal said:
I think it is important not to categorize people who have reservations about this story as privileged transphobes who wish to perpetuate the oppression of trans men and women.

astraevirgo said:
"Doctors are uncomfortable because he's challenging their privilege as nontrans persons, as people who assume we all fit into neat gender categories."

While this may be true, I think it is quite possible that doctors are uncomfortable for far more pedestrian reasons: namely, because this person, who is legally and socially male and who has undergone various medical procedures to advance toward biological male status, now wishes to re-invoke some degree of his female identity for the purposes of bearing a child. From a medical standpoint, one can imagine several problems doctors might have. For example, what effect (if any) might years of testosterone therapy have on the ability of this person's body to produce pregnancy hormones? Is this person, who has taken various (irreversible) steps toward becoming a man, psychologically prepared to accept the realities of pregnancy? Does this person have access to adequate resources and social support to deal with the inevitable fallout from friends, relatives, and society in general? What are the psychological and social implications for the child, who -- while born to loving, committed parents, it's true -- nonetheless undoubtedly will be known as "the kid whose dad gave birth to her".

I think these are legitimate questions, as is the other obvious question in this case: isn't this person trying to have it "both ways" by reaping the social/cultural benefits of maleness AND the reproductive/childbearing benefits of femaleness? Asking this question will no doubt raise the ire of some here, but like it or not it is a question that will be asked over and over as this case gains recognition in the media.

It is one thing to believe, as many of us do, that gender (and gender identity) is a continuum and that people need not fit into simplistic and/or unitary categories of "male" or "female". However, to dismiss people who have questions or concerns about this story as narrow-minded, trans-hating bigots is reductionist and ignores the complicated medical, legal, social, psychological, and ethical issues this case raises.

Crimgal: I agree that it's very important to acknowledge the complexity of the situation, and in addressing these points, that's exactly what I'm trying to do.

In any pregnancy there are a lot of questions to consider. But for example, in the case of a pregnant teen, her emotional capability for parenting and access to adequate support resources may be as questionable as Beatie's - but they would never be seen as valid medical reasons to deny prenatal care. Complications from reproductive disorders, hormonal conditions, previous chemotherapy or other treatments, could seriously affect a person's fertility. And yet they would never be seen as legitimate reasons to deny prenatal care. Unless, apparently, the person in question is trans.

Can you imagine how reproductive rights and women's health advocates would respond if the medical community denied pregnant teens necessary medical care because of concerns about their "psychological preparedness" or "social support"? Do you really think that such a refusal of care would work towards the physical and social wellbeing of young women? I am NOT, seriously, seriously, NOT trying to say that the situations of pregnant young women and Beatie are the same, similar, or analogous - just trying to point out that complicated life and physical situations aren't generally considered good reasons to deny care. SO when they suddenly seem acceptable in the case of a trans patient, that's worth questioning - and doing so is delving into, rather than ignoring, the complexity of the situation.

I also agree with talknormal - from a reproductive rights/bodily integrity perspective, it seems the doctors that denied him care are complicit in denying him his right to his own body's reproductive capacity.

Crimgal: I agree that it's very important to acknowledge the complexity of the situation, and in addressing these points, that's exactly what I'm trying to do.

In any pregnancy there are a lot of questions to consider. But for example, in the case of a pregnant teen, her emotional capability for parenting and access to adequate support resources may be as questionable as Beatie's - but they would never be seen as valid medical reasons to deny prenatal care. Complications from reproductive disorders, hormonal conditions, previous chemotherapy or other treatments, could seriously affect a person's fertility. And yet they would never be seen as legitimate reasons to deny prenatal care. Unless, apparently, the person in question is trans.

Can you imagine how reproductive rights and women's health advocates would respond if the medical community denied pregnant teens necessary medical care because of concerns about their "psychological preparedness" or "social support"? Do you really think that such a refusal of care would work towards the physical and social wellbeing of young women? I am NOT, seriously, seriously, NOT trying to say that the situations of pregnant young women and Beatie are the same, similar, or analogous - just trying to point out that complicated life and physical situations aren't generally considered good reasons to deny care. SO when they suddenly seem acceptable in the case of a trans patient, that's worth questioning - and doing so is delving into, rather than ignoring, the complexity of the situation.

I also agree with talknormal - from a reproductive rights/bodily integrity perspective, it seems the doctors that denied him care are complicit in denying him his right to his own body's reproductive capacity.

(p.s. i already tried posting this a bit ago and it hasn't shown up...so if two of these eventually wind up here please accept my apologies!!!)

I watched some of it before I had to go get my daughter - it was okay, but Oprah's always had trouble with sexuality and gender issues, IMO - and watching her squirm makes me uncomfortable after a while.

(I once saw something where she talked about a tabloid story that she and Gail were lesbian lovers, and she said it was just the Worst! Thing! anyone could ever say about her - I thought that was very revealing.)

Admittedly, transgendered people really challenge and confuse me because their experiences seem to discredit my beliefs about the nature of gender and biological sex.

HOWEVER, in the much discussed nursery segment, he held up this little outfit with a bib that said "Daddy's Little Princess" and how he couldn't WAIT to see her in it, which pretty much made me want to vomit and I felt like these people are morons.

He's talking about societal gender roles and pressure from society, etc, but already before this baby is born they are all about making her a princess?! Thomas seems like a super nice person, but I'm sorry, that is just straight up ridiculous.

"HOWEVER, in the much discussed nursery segment, he held up this little outfit with a bib that said 'Daddy's Little Princess' and how he couldn't WAIT to see her in it, which pretty much made me want to vomit and I felt like these people are morons.

"He's talking about societal gender roles and pressure from society, etc, but already before this baby is born they are all about making her a princess?!"

Either that or he's got a wider range in the layette and also can't wait to see her wear "MIT Class of 2030," "Sonic Youth," etc. as well as "Daddy's Little Princess"?

MSN is promoting a 'Today' article about the Oprah broadcast where all of the headlines refer to him as a 'man' - yes, in quotes. Because apparently his own identification of himself isn't reliable, it needs to be called into question to make him a freak.

The article itself isn't bad, and uses the correct pronouns and lacks scare quotes, but the headline really irks me.

Mmm Talk Normal? "Isn't this person trying to have it both ways?" is not a valid question to ask among feminists because I think we have already established that "male privilege" and "female privilege" need to be challenged. Men can cry, women can grab the bat and run out to protect her pregnant husband and child from a robber.

Hmm, that should probably say
"a woman can" or "protect their". Y Ka'nt Fimmenists Tip?e

Can someone please explain to me how home insemination works? And where do you get the sperm from with this?

I find it very sad that doctors refused to treat him. As if him looking like a man nullifies the fact that he wanted to become pregnant since his wife really can't. Because that's why he did it. At least from what I could see from the advocate article.

Yet noone... let alone a racist, sexist moron like Jill Stanek. Her interpretation of this angers me to no end.

Whoever it was that said that the right wing nutjobs don't seem to care about THIS fetus was dead-right! This little girl is going to be raised by a father and a mother, Thomas even said that in the article. They will probably tell her when she is old enough to understand that Daddy was the one to give birth to her but I seriously do think that it won't bother her because her parents will have raised her not to be a bigot asshat. I would not worry about her mental state in the future. I rather see couples like this have childern than some of the asshats that are "traditional".

ROCK ON, THOMAS AND NANCY! I wish you all the best!

"is the world ready"

Whether or not the world is ready, the baby is going to be born and raised. What would the fucking point be of the rightwing nuts calling the kid a freak or abomination? She's going to grow up either way and we as a society should make damn sure we don't screw her up any more than any other kids in this country.

I know I"m preaching to the choir, but I always hate that question. Instead of society asking if we are ready, why don't we start asking how do we get ready?

LOVE OR PERISH "From a medical standpoint, one can imagine several problems doctors might have. For example, what effect (if any) might years of testosterone therapy have on the ability of this person's body to produce pregnancy hormones?"

Why? Many women take testosterone for various reasons as medical treatments. The general warning is to not take them while pregnant (because it can masculinizes the brain and external genitalia of female fetuses - which is a value judgment, not necessarily a medical judgment).

I'm not aware of any evidence that testosterone treatment have later impairments of pregnancies, but that's a question for doctors.

LOVEORPERISH: "Is this person, who has taken various (irreversible) steps toward becoming a man, psychologically prepared to accept the realities of pregnancy?"

I think many unplanned pregnancies fall under this category too, but doctors still treat unplanned teen pregnancies. Seems like this is a case where a doctor might also want to bring in psychiatrist just in case because of the uniqueness of the situation, not abandon the patient.

LOVEORHATE: "Does this person have access to adequate resources and social support to deal with the inevitable fallout from friends, relatives, and society in general?"

All good reasons for the doctor not to abandon the patient. Specialists deal with these issues all the time - for example, how to balance societal reactions and parents desires when a child is born intersex (e.g., genetically female, partially masculinized phallus).

LOVEORHATE: What are the psychological and social implications for the child, who -- while born to loving, committed parents, it's true -- nonetheless undoubtedly will be known as "the kid whose dad gave birth to her".

ewww... icky, probably like one of those test-tube babies that we still all fear and loathe as a culture. They never should have let that first test-tube baby be born.

I just finished watching the show a few minutes ago on my video recorder. Yes, it could have been handled better by Oprah (I have been watching a few episodes lately, and I believe she interrupts her guests and attempts to inject humor entirely too much - I don't care if she is an otherwise nice person, it is her show, and she is a billionaire), but it is a beautiful story. The only thing "different" about it is Thomas was born female who now identifies as a male, and interestingly, does not see pregnancy as a gender issue. I believed that was one lesson we could learn.

Transpeople may be justifiably worried about legal implications for their own lives, but it is unfortunate that the couple has not been able to receive more support from within the trans community, as individuals. They also seem to be accepted by their neighbors. I hope the media and bigots will be able to leave them alone, because I share their concern that other people are not ready for their situation. I was not under the impression that the pregnancy itself or their plans for the baby were anything unusual.

Hearing Thomas was like myself, from Hawaii and of Asian descent was the real surprise for me. Cool. I also consider him a good looking man with great skin. I wish I had skin like that.