As a 5'2" woman (short, but average short), I find this fascinating. I am probably guilty of gawking at tall women as well, though not quite so rudely with side comments. This may be me playing entirely into stereotypes, but I do sense a strong and powerful presence from tall women that I doubt I could ever approach. My apologies to the tall women who I have inevitably annoyed by my less than subtle gawks. Not that it's an excuse, but I'm admiring what to me is a kind of beauty and female presence I can never reach (pun intended).

I'll man up and admit it. Tall women intimidate the hell out of me.

I don't make comments to them, but I have a hell of a hard time talking to them.

I'll man up and admit it.

As opposed to womaning up and admitting it? ;)

Just pointing out, that's a pretty gendered phrase that conflates "man" with "being brave" or "doing something difficult". And, of course, it reinforces, by implication, the idea that "girls" or "women" don't possess the quality.

Tall women intimidate the hell out of me.

What is it about tall women that intimidates you?

One of the things that I find particularly interesting is the destructive ways that women are basically told that it's never right- tall women are stared at and commented about because they're tall, but there's also this social myth that tall women are more beautiful/graceful than short women. Most of the women I know who fall on either side of the spectrum have mentioned wishing that they were on the other side.

i am 5'10'' and have been tall my entire life. i do find that my height intimidates men a little bit, but i think it's more my height coupled with a no-bullshit attitude and very strong opinions...being a bit of an oddity has never really bothered me (despite some teenage awkwardness that everyone feels in one way or another) except when it comes to dating. i simply do not feel comfortable dating men who are shorter than me (not to mention that they are often not comfortable with me) and this cuts into the dating pool significantly. i understand that it's a very petty, and probably has a lot to do with traditional gender roles that i generally reject, but at the end of the day i can't shake the discomfort.

So this is what it actually takes for me to get an account here.

I'm 6'1, and wow. I might be wrong, but I've never seen any of my shorter people so subject to having random strangers tell them not to wear heels when I'm out. Um? I realize high heels are not one of my most feminist tastes, but it's my choice. Yet, for some reason, friends, strangers, coworkers, fellow students--they all seem to act like they have some unique right to dictate what I wear because of my height.

I didn't wear high heels once until I was twenty. One of the reasons I like them now is because, yeah, it feels a little bit like a "screw you" to the people who told me "You can never wear heels" when I was in high school. Not to mention the people who told me "don't stand up so straight!"

The other thing I've found at my height (this might not be true for some of the even taller women) is that I regularly have people tell me, "Oh, you should model." Ignoring how I feel about modeling, how much I weigh, my build, my eating habits, or the fact I'm not exactly a public, attention seeking person. It's like even with some friends, there are times when they look at me when all they see is a Tallgirl.

It's easier now, but when I stopped growing at 15? It was a serious self-esteem issue.

And now I've rambled on. Sorry if this isn't relevant, but I felt the need to add a little of my own experience to that.

As opposed to womaning up and admitting it? ;)

Just pointing out, that's a pretty gendered phrase that conflates "man" with "being brave" or "doing something difficult". And, of course, it reinforces, by implication, the idea that "girls" or "women" don't possess the quality.

It's part of my vernacular, and I'm not a woman, so I can't exactly "woman up and admit it".

What is it about tall women that intimidates you?

Hell if I know. I just know I find them really intimidating.

One of the things that I find particularly interesting is the destructive ways that women are basically told that it's never right- tall women are stared at and commented about because they're tall, but there's also this social myth that tall women are more beautiful/graceful than short women.

Then call me an oddity, as I find short women much more attractive.

That's not to say that tall women are UNattractive. Just that I prefer short women. Shrug.

What an awesome coincidence. I just performed in a poetry slam last night about how much it sucks to be tall.

I'm 5'11".
My main frustration is the way people react to me. Strangers will call me "stretch", "skyscraper", "giant", "amazon woman", and the ever so innovative "tall chick".
Whenever someone asks me if I play basketball I tell them "no, I'm a professional jockey".
And then I get bugged by people whenever I wear heels. I wear them because I like them; it's not because I'm trying to make myself even taller, I just like the way they look.
And then there are they guys like Mild Ennui who are intimidated by me for some reason, even though I see no reason being tall should make me even scarier. What would I do? Laugh at some guy and call him shorty? Pinch his cheeks and go "awwww, how cute! You really think you have a chance with me!"
If he starts a conversation with "how tall are you?" or "do you play basketball?" I am likely to get annoyed because I get asked that a million times a day, but if the conversation starts any other (non-sexist) way, I'm going to be perfectly friendly and not think a second about any sort of height difference.

I think exceptionally tall people get primarily the same response whether they are a man or women, but a tall man can get a date easier. However I think a tall woman can probably get a date easier than a short man. I've dated several guys who were my height or shorter and I have received weird responses about it from a lot of people.

I've certainly received unsolicited comments on my body and it is a reason I'm a feminist. I also absolutely HATE it when strange men tell me to smile. However, I think people gawking at height is less a gender issue but people reacting to someone outside the norm.

As a short (4'11"1/2) woman, this is interesting to me as well. Some of what Ann is describing has happened to me, but in reverse. I get asked how tall am I, am I a midget (I know that's derogatory, sorry), would I like the kids menu, and the worst one--PATTED ON THE HEAD. I HATE that! I don't mind it so much if it's a really good friend, but someone I barely know, or if I know it's to demean me in some way, it really gets on my nerves. Either way, it seems to me that as a woman, in order to be not seen as a freak show, you need to be the "perfect" height. What that is, I don't know. It seems that no matter what height you are as a woman, it's not good enough for someone else.

As a tall woman (5'11'') I find it funny (if flattering) that anyone might think I was in anyway 'graceful'. Having been about the same height since I was 13 I am only just getting out of the habit of walking, standing and sitting hunched over. I still can't walk in heels. (props to Sarolynne for that by the way, learning to walk in them at 20 or later is hard!)
The worst was when I was traveling in Thailand - at times I even had crowds of tiny kids running after me and pointing at the 'giant lady'- it is hard to be confident in your height when at times it makes you feel freakish and unfeminine.

As a petite 5ft 13 I find that - yes, I am observed, more than I would be if I were under 5ft 8, but I don't get comments. Maybe people in the UK don't do that so much? I generally don't wear heels, because I hate that banging your head on the top of a door frame thing, and limboing under them is jsut too showoff, really. I have had people ask me if I used to be a model. Gee thanks - so I'm tall, but too old for it? It can be useful for seeing over crowds and getting things off high shelves.

And then there are they guys like Mild Ennui who are intimidated by me for some reason, even though I see no reason being tall should make me even scarier.

My sincere apologies. I can't help it. It's just an innate reaction. I can't even explain why it's there. Tall women just flat out intimidate the hell out of me.

but a tall man can get a date easier. However I think a tall woman can probably get a date easier than a short man.

Well, yeah. Not only are we expected to be tall, but most (het) women tend to prefer men that are taller than them.

Either way, it seems to me that as a woman, in order to be not seen as a freak show, you need to be the "perfect" height. What that is, I don't know. It seems that no matter what height you are as a woman, it's not good enough for someone else.

I once dated a woman that was your height. I suppose that is mentioned for no other purpose than to say just because someone might see you as a freak show, there's also someone else that won't.

Eeesh. These comments make me feel worse about what I first posted. I know I'm playing into stereotypes, and I hate to do that--trying to get better. As a short woman, it's hard not to play into these at times because at least for me, I feel I'm compared to that standard of the tall and thin beauty. I'll always be in the "cute" realm. The grass is greener, of course. I can to some extent sympathize...I'm amazed at how many people feel it's perfectly acceptable to remark that I'm short, or that my hands and feet are "soooooo tiny!." It gets really old. And comparatively, I'm only two inches or so below average height! If I don't want to be stereotypes or endure rude remarks I will try my best not to perpetrate them!

I think exceptionally tall people get primarily the same response whether they are a man or women, but a tall man can get a date easier. However I think a tall woman can probably get a date easier than a short man. I've dated several guys who were my height or shorter and I have received weird responses about it from a lot of people.

I've certainly received unsolicited comments on my body and it is a reason I'm a feminist. I also absolutely HATE it when strange men tell me to smile. However, I think people gawking at height is less a gender issue but people reacting to someone outside the norm.

I'm 5'11" and I *hated* it until I was in college and went to see Clinton speak - I was waiting in a huge group of people to enter the field where he was speaking and realized that because I was a head above most of the other women, I was the only woman who could breathe fresh air and could see where we were headed.

Well, that experience and years of playing basketball and rowing crew - sports in which height gave me a distinct advantage.

I now have a little girl who we think (hope) will be quite tall as well, but I cringe to think about her going through 5th through 8th grade being the tallest kid in her class and wishing she were 5 feet tall. It was rough in the years when you just want to blend in with the pack.

I used to cry when we had to go shoe shopping because I sized out of Stride Rite when I was about 7. The big feet thing has lingered longer than the height issue - even though I accepted the fact that I wear an 11/12 long ago, it's hard when shoe designers feel it's their place to frequently remind you that your giant feet are better off in orthopedic shoes or men's sneakers. I've managed to muddle through somehow, though. :) Makes me a little sad to think about my baby going through the same process someday.

It's part of my vernacular, and I'm not a woman, so I can't exactly "woman up and admit it".

True, but if you can see that it's a gendered phrase, you can make an effort to alter your vernacular so that it doesn't reinforce harmful stereotypes, in the same way that I, when I was younger, had to work on removing the use of "gay" as a derogitory term from my vocabularly.

I'm 5'10 and I quite like it. I've gotten both negative and positive attention for it, but I think what I like the most is that people don't fuck with me so much. People don't talk down to me (maybe because they physically can't) and older people tend to treat me more as their equal because of my height.

I might be wrong, but I've never seen any of my shorter people so subject to having random strangers tell them not to wear heels when I'm out.
Oh, I hear you on this! I've been told before that I 'can't wear heels'. Um, why not? I love high heels. I love boots. I really enjoy footwear in general and sneakers aside, hate the way flats look and feel. I'm already tall, why not emphasize it? The heels are not making me look tall, my height is making me look tall!

I actually felt totally confident in my height until I attended a new school during my last year of high school. Sure, I had heard I was tall before, but I had never been truly teased about it. At that new school I got all kinds of rude comments and teasing about my thin frame and height. Someone even once started a rumour that I had been born a male.

Some boys might have been a bit intimidated, but I was a very intimidating person in general. Aside from that, I was quite popular and had been asked out by a lot of people. I've never experienced much of an issue with men feeling uncomfortable because of my height (not that I'm saying it doesn't happen), but maybe that's because I don't give douchebags the time of day?

I'm 5'10 and I quite like it. I've gotten both negative and positive attention for it, but I think what I like the most is that people don't fuck with me so much. People don't talk down to me (maybe because they physically can't) and older people tend to treat me more as their equal because of my height.

I might be wrong, but I've never seen any of my shorter people so subject to having random strangers tell them not to wear heels when I'm out.
Oh, I hear you on this! I've been told before that I 'can't wear heels'. Um, why not? I love high heels. I love boots. I really enjoy footwear in general and sneakers aside, hate the way flats look and feel. I'm already tall, why not emphasize it? The heels are not making me look tall, my height is making me look tall!

I actually felt totally confident in my height until I attended a new school during my last year of high school. Sure, I had heard I was tall before, but I had never been truly teased about it. At that new school I got all kinds of rude comments and teasing about my thin frame and height. Someone even once started a rumour that I had been born a male.

Some boys might have been a bit intimidated, but I was a very intimidating person in general. Aside from that, I was quite popular and had been asked out by a lot of people. I've never experienced much of an issue with men feeling uncomfortable because of my height (not that I'm saying it doesn't happen), but maybe that's because I don't give douchebags the time of day?

I get asked how tall am I, am I a midget (I know that's derogatory, sorry), would I like the kids menu, and the worst one--PATTED ON THE HEAD. I HATE that!

YES a thousand times YES. I'm nearly 30 freaking years old, I do not need to be patted on the head, kthxbai. I also have people sing to me, multiple times, "short people got no reason to live." On the flip side, there are enough guys out there who fetishize shortness that I always wondered why exactly a guy found me attractive.

If you're a female you just can't win. You're always too something. Too tall, too short, too blonde, too brunette, too fat, too skinny...

@P. Parkinson - my husband is in the shoe business, and most designers make up to 12 or 13, but stores don't stock them. They can be special ordered, often at no extra cost from a store (for non-chain stores; I think chain and dept stores have different policies), although that is a PITA too because then you have to wait weeks for your shoes, and you don't know if you'll fit. But it's an option (if a bit crappy of one). There's the same problem at the low end too; most stores don't stock under size 6. I had a friend in college who had to wear childrens shoes because of this, until she learned she could special order her size 5's.

What's the deal with the NYT excerpt juxtaposing blonde-and-blue-eyed with "deformed or handicapped"?

I feel like that was an implicit way of saying women of color should expect to be gawked at bc they're inherently scary to strangers. Yuck.

"i am 5'10'' and have been tall my entire life. i do find that my height intimidates men a little bit, but i think it's more my height coupled with a no-bullshit attitude and very strong opinions..."

Oh man, this describes me exactly.

I guess on the upside, I don't attract guys who are insecure in their masculinity enough to be attracted exclusively to short, "cute" women and who so much lack the ability of self-reflection that they can't figure out why and/or get over it...

I hate hate hate being patted on the head, but what pisses me off even more is when people pick me up. I mean that literally, as in bend over, grab me by the armpits, and pick me up. I was at a party once where I was picked up and the passed around the room to about 10 different men, all of whom felt for some reason entitled to hold me up like a doll. WTF! I actually like being short, but people need to back off.

I have to say though, the tall ladies do have a leg up on us shorties in a crowd. Not only do you get the fresh air, but you get a really good view. I am always getting screwed over at concerts and such because 99% of the adult population is taller than I am. I do like it though when I am shopping and see somebody I don't want to talk to - then I can just head down a row of racks and nobody can see me because I am shorter than the fixtures. I suppose sometimes we all want what we can't have.

Great post. I'm 6'6", my sister is 6'1', and so is my mom. My dad is 6'4". We're quite a sight walking all together... I've forwarded the link to my sister in hopes that she'll stop by to comment.

For myself, my whole life people have felt completely free to comment on my body. In junior high and high school this especially sucked, since I was super skinny. Boys and girls alike seemed compelled to say something derogatory every time they saw me. Bullies took a particular delight in dominating a guy who was taller than they were, even if nowhere near as strong. The end result of all that was that I hated and ignored my body until my mid-20s.

I don't think I can count high enough to tally the number of people who have declared, "You're tall!" For the most part those folks are benign, so my response is usually a deliberately exaggerated, "Reeeeeeaaaallllllly?" People get the point, but it's gentle enough that they ususlly don't take offense. The basketball references are harder for me; since I rejected body-things ('cause I hated my body) and focused on mind-things like classes and clubs, it was a slap in the face to be put into that box. DOn't mind them as muchg now, probably 'cause I'm older.

A brief closing note on a wonderfully different experience (I almost wrote "corrective" but these days I like my experience and wouldn't want to trade it): I spent three years in Southern Sudan among the Dinka and Nuer tribes -- the tallest peoples in the world. I was frequently in the company of people as tall or taller than I. They called my White Dinka. It was really cool to be slightly above average instead of a freak.

I'm a boringly average height (5'6") and, as a soccer player, always felt such envy toward the tall girls. I wanted big feet and extra inches in my legs that are so advantageous as a soccer player. My best friend was always a head taller than me (ended up being 6') and was cool as hell.

But I do know that tall men get stared at and asked stupid questions as well. A guy at my college refused to tell anyone how tall he was because so many people would ask him. I have to admit, the first time I met him, it was the first question I asked. I think the "tallness threshold" for asking stupid questions is different between men and women depending on the heights people are accustomed to seeing.

Wow, Ann. You are more than half a foot taller than me. I'm 5 feet 5 inches. Kind of short for a man.

Hm, interesting!

I was always considered "tall" growing up, even though I am only 5'9", and these days I have a thing for wearing 4" heels, and I quite like being extra tall. ("Extra" because of the added height, not because I think an extra 4 inches makes me extraordinary in any way.)

And I have to admit - I have patted a couple of shorties on the head! (OK, you shorter people, PLEASE don't get pissy at me for using the term "shorties" - none of my shortie friends mind, and I don't mind when they call me Amazonia!) LOL But I try to control that urge, I REALLY do; I completely understand how insulting a head pat can be, even though I have never been bothered by the comments, etc. that people make to me being slightly taller than "average". I work in an office with a lot of very short people, and I always feel like a big, powerful Amazon Woman when I'm riding in the elevator with them! ;) (Sorry if that offended anyone - seems like no matter what you say, or what words one uses to describe one's self, someone is ALWAYS offended.)

But more to the point - what about unusually tall men? Do you think they are bothered by stares & such?
I was in England for 2 weeks when I was 17 once, and whilst waiting for the train a VERY tall man in a sharp business suit & sunglasses carrying a briefcase stepped onto the platform, and both my mom & I flat-out gawked, even though I knew it was rude, but I honestly couldn't help myself! This man was easily 9 or 10 feet tall, I shit you not. He had to bend over right in half at the waist to step onto the train. I have never in my entire life ever seen anyone so tall in my life, and I found it very intriguing. I personally like my men taller than me though; I don't think it has anything to do with an aversion to or prejudice against short men, it's just a personal preference. I think it's because my dad is very tall - you know how they say "a girl will tend to date men with attributes like daddy", don't know how true that really is, since I've dated men with a number of different body types, and enjoyed all of them - but whatevs. I like 'em tall & lanky! ;)

Wow, that did ramble on a bit, didn't it. Sorry if it makes no sense or is irrelevant! :)

Sarolynne: I hear you on the high heels comments! I'm 5'11" and get lectured on this all the time. I'm not sure people realize that until recently (since they seem to have come in style suddenly) it was nearly impossible to find cute flats AT ALL. All the good shoes are heels!

I got married recently, and I got so much "advice", such as wearing flats, having a non-poofy hair do (yes, really), and having my husband wear platform shoes (he is ONE inch shorter than I am). It all got very old very fast.

P. Parkinson: I feel your pain on the shoe size when you were young. I remember crying because I wanted Princess Jasmine shoes from K-mart when I was eight and they didn't make them large enough.

Also, did anyone else get kept out of the ball pit at Chuck E. Cheese when they were still young enough to be going there for birthday parties? Luckily I had some great friends who refused to go in when they found out I was too tall, and one even told "Chucky" about it!

"The worst was when I was traveling in Thailand - at times I even had crowds of tiny kids running after me and pointing at the 'giant lady'- it is hard to be confident in your height when at times it makes you feel freakish and unfeminine."

I can relate to this. I was in Thailand this winter and I felt like a giant. I am 5'9" and h/w proportionate (for an American) and I wear an 8, sometimes 10 pant and I would get looks and comments all the time. A local tour guide actually commented on how big I am and my husband is 6' and never got the same treatment. The worst was clothes shopping when the vendor would call me a big lady.

I have been the same height since 13 and I also developed breasts (D) early. This made me very self-conscious until I was 18. I get comments on my height now even, especially when I wear heels. I personally like being tall and I too get annoyed when people tell me what to wear. People always comment on how tall I am with heels, asking why I would want to be SO tall (I actually like being eye-level or taller than others). I am pretty much only aware of my height when strangers make comments, otherwise I don't feel abnormally tall. This is probably because my family is very tall (most men are over 6'5" and up to 6'9" and women are my height or taller) and my husband is tall.

But really the Thailand trip was the worst. I had a good time but my self-esteem was at an all-time low.

"The worst was when I was traveling in Thailand - at times I even had crowds of tiny kids running after me and pointing at the 'giant lady'- it is hard to be confident in your height when at times it makes you feel freakish and unfeminine."

I can relate an opposite situation. I'm 5'0" and sometime visit the Netherlands. I go to parties and every single person, male or female, is close to a foot taller than me. It could be a Utopia for some of the taller women here.

Being short often makes me feel fat, and yes, unfeminine and freakish, especially when flipping through fashion magazines. I think medium is the only happy medium as far as current standards of beauty go.

Mz.Stilletto: It's funny you mentioned the elevator because that is where I always notice my height the most. I'll be in an elevator and suddenly it will occur to me that I am the tallest person in there.

As for tall men feeling uncomfortable, I think it is definitely true. My 17-year-old cousin is stick thin and 6'6". He works at Target, and nearly every person that comes through his check-out line asks how tall he is. I know it makes him incredibly self-conscious.

"Also, did anyone else get kept out of the ball pit at Chuck E. Cheese when they were still young enough to be going there for birthday parties?"

YES!!! In second grade!

I'm 5'11" and usually appreciate the height (almost everything it my kitchen is too tall for others to comfortable reach without a chair). The only exception is never being able to fall asleep on a flight because of the lack of leg room. Those who automatically recline their seats upon liftoff regardless of whether or not they're sleeping - please consider the person behind you! It really does matter!

Sarolynne: I hear you on the high heels comments! I'm 5'11" and get lectured on this all the time. I'm not sure people realize that until recently (since they seem to have come in style suddenly) it was nearly impossible to find cute flats AT ALL. All the good shoes are heels!

I got married recently, and I got so much "advice", such as wearing flats, having a non-poofy hair do (yes, really), and having my husband wear platform shoes (he is ONE inch shorter than I am). It all got very old very fast.

When I was 21, I was maid of honor in one of my friend's wedding parties, and the best man was about three inches shorter than me.

My friend tells me I have to get the shoes on my own--cute, silver, flats. Uh? Wow. Has she ever tried finding those? And the dress was only about ankle length, so they had to be pretty shoes.

She got strappy silver three inch heels. And I may have loomed over the best man, but it looked fabulous with the dress.

As for everyone who's said they look at reactions to tall people are fairly nongendered: My brother is 6'9, and while he probably gets as much reaction as I do, it's very different. My brother is expected to be strong (which he is--as a horse, but that doesn't mean it's a fair expectation), confident, mature, and... stupid. Which he's not. He also seems to have people pick fights with him pretty regularly.

But as far as I know, he doesn't even have as many people just proclaim "You're really tall!" as I do, and I've never seen him have people tell him how he should dress or how he should use his height.

Tall people are not nongendered.

that is because men are "supposed" to be taller than women. And in fact, in standard gender typing, taller = more manly, or something close to it.

Men get screwed over if they're short. Society does not like short men, it "belittles" them. It's never great to be away from gender norms, in most places.

However, it's a different effect: short men don't tend to stand out, and tall women do. That probably makes it a bit worse; most of the 6'+ women I know get many comments.

6’1� here. Besides all of the annoying comments mentioned above, I hate when people say “How tall is your dad?� Um, yeah, I get my height from my mom, asshat. Mom is 6’0�, her brother is 6’8�, his sons are both around 6’6�. I suppose that very tall men, like my uncle and cousins, do get comments, mostly of the “How tall are you?� kind (they also seem to get automatic respect). However, my 6’2� husband never gets comments, but I do, even though we are virtually the same height.

I have stood up to leave a room and had people literally gasp at my height. I don’t get “How tall are you?� I get “Jesus! How tall are you anyway?� I get people craning their necks backward to stare at me as I walk by. I get comments from men like “Wow, I could climb you!� or “Damn baby, those legs are so long you could wrap them around me twice!� I pretty sure tall men don’t have to put up with that crap. Of course, women of any height have to put up with disgusting comments from disgusting men.

I also hate when I’m talking about how hard it is to find pants that fit me and someone who is 5’1� or so says “Oh, I know, it’s sooo hard for me to find pants too!� Um, no, it isn’t. Almost every department store has a petite section, I know of none that have a tall section for women. I have to order through catalogs, on-line or find specialty tall stores (which are very rare in the U.S.). Shorter women also have the option of hemming longer pants. I can’t make 31� inseam pants stretch to the 37� inseam I need. Sorry, but it is not the same. I’m sure being 5’1� has it’s own issues, but finding clothing isn’t one of them.

I also hate the "you should be a model" comments (although, since I'm over 30 and fat, I don't get those anymore!)Isn't ironic that most models are 5’10� and over, but when the clothes hit the racks, women of that height can’t purchase them because they don’t fit?

I remember watching an episode of Oprah a few years ago and they were talking about public displays of affections that made people uncomfortable. They had polled people and one of the questions was about whether or not they were comfortable seeing a tall woman kiss a short man. Over 60% of those polled said that they were uncomfortable seeing that. 60%!! So, I’d say to the person that suggested that most women prefer to date taller men, that a huge part of that are societal expectations. Your male partner must be taller than you or it makes others uncomfortable. See the commenters above talking about how people feel a need to tell them they should wear flats on their wedding day – god forbid you look taller than you husband, even if that’s the reality (people have asked my husband how he can be with a woman so tall – no joke).

Oh, and my response to the dreaded question “Wow, you’re tall. Did you play basketball?�
Me: “No. Did you play miniature golf?�

6'1" here. Can't tell you how many times I've been asked "how tall are you?" and "do you play basketball? (or occassionally volleyball)". My favorite response to the ever-present comment of "You're taaall!" is to look down at myself, gasp, and respond, "Oh my goodness, you're right! I never noticed that before!" But only if the person is really obnoxious or if I'm in a particularly sarcastic mood!

Yes, I've tried to find cute silver flats (in size 11 of course)...they hurt my feet. I've also had the short-people-can-hem-up-long-pants argument, and have been advised to sew extra material onto the ends of the legs of my jeans. Stylish, no?

In all seriousness, these kinds of things don't bother me that much. The comments are tiresome, but not infuriating, and I can generally find clothes that fit me, even if I don't get my first choices. The dating thing is more of a problem. That stuff about tall girls being intimidating? Total crap. It shouldn't make any difference. Are you a few inches shorter than I am? I don't have a problem with it, you shouldn't have a problem with it. But it's definitely expected that the guy will be taller, which really narrows down the options.

"Also, did anyone else get kept out of the ball pit at Chuck E. Cheese when they were still young enough to be going there for birthday parties?"

Oh man, this happened to me too. It was my best friend's birthday, I don't remember exactly how old we were, probably 8-9, we definitely hadn't hit double digits yet. I was the only one not allowed in, and I just remember feeling like I wanted to crawl into a hole in the ground and cry.

These days I'm just shy of being 6ft. And it's strange but I don't even notice my height that much anymore, that is unless someone else (usually a man) brings it up. I genuinely forget that I'm close to being a foot taller than some of my girlfriends, to the point where when I look at group photos of all of us I'm some what taken aback to see just how much I tower over everyone.

This can also be somewhat problematic when it comes to dating men. I don't really notice height much when scouting out prospective partners. I couldn't care less how tall/short a guy is and it has had no real bearing on whether or not I find that person attractive. Most of the men I've dated have been shorter than me, probably simply because the average male height is 5'9"-5'10". My problem is when shorter men develop a complex when dating a taller woman. For the love of god, don't insist that we're "totally the same height" when I'm really three inches taller than you. Don't tell me not to wear high heels when we go out. Don't act all emasculated just because you're the one who now has to lean up into a kiss. Seriously. I swear, some men act like acknowledging (and being okay with) the height difference is going to make their penis shrivel up and fall off!

I've dated plenty of guys shorter than me. I find that if he's willing to date a girl taller, he has fewer insecurities and hang ups than a lot of other guys.

Then there is the guy who cannot believe that I am 5'11" because HE is 5'11" and I'm taller than him so I must be lying.

Mild Ennui: "I'll man up and admit it. Tall women intimidate the hell out of me. I don't make comments to them, but I have a hell of a hard time talking to them."

Is that gender-specific or height specific?

For example, do you feel uncomfortable talking to tall men and women, or is it something about tall women in particular?

What do you think leads you to feel that way?

I haven't been posting because my dissertation exams are finally in one week, but I couldn't resist getting in on a body image discussion.

We just published two papers that might be of interest.

The first paper deals with the horrible ways that the medical profession pathologizes height in women. Many pediatricians still offer hormonal treatments to stunt the growth of tall girls SOLELY for psychosocial reasons (fear that tall girls will be stigmatized and unable to find partners).

The second paper deals with how both men and women enforce the "male-taller norm" in dating relationships.

PAPER 1: Tall Women's Satisfaction With Their Height: General Population Data Challenges Assumptions Behind Medical Interventions to Stunt Girls' Growth.

One-third of American pediatric endocrinologists offer growth-suppression treatments for tall girls despite serious medical risks and little or no evidence of benefit to psychosocial functioning. A survey of 59,632 adults shows that most tall women are satisfied with their height, which raises questions about the continued use of growth-suppression treatments.

http://dfred.bol.ucla.edu/LeverFrederickINPRESSTallWomenSatisfaction.doc

PAPER 2: Conditional Mate Preferences: Factors Influencing Preferences for Height

Physical stature plays an important role in human mate choice because it may signal dominance, high status, access to resources, and underlying heritable qualities. Although past research has examined overall preferences for height, we propose these preferences are modified by evolved mechanisms that consider one’s own height and prevailing social norms. We examined this proposal using samples of 2000 personal ads and 382 undergraduates. Both sexes preferred relationships where the woman was shorter when specifying the shortest acceptable, tallest acceptable, and ideal dating partner. In the personal ads sample, this norm was more strongly enforced by women than by men: 23% of men compared to only 4% of women would accept a dating relationship where the woman was taller. Preferences for the male-taller norm were less pronounced in short men and tall women, who shifted towards preferring someone closer to their own height. This limited their potential dating pool but ensured they would select a mate within the typical range of variation for height. Surprisingly, endorsement of traditional gender role norms was only weakly related to height preferences, particularly for women. These findings highlight the utility of examining how evolutionary factors, including endorsement of social norms, may influence mate preferences.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V9F-4PRHKN5-1&_user=4423&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000059605&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=4423&md5=f5f5be4b47bc6217c5d4b80c73303877

"Then there is the guy who cannot believe that I am 5'11" because HE is 5'11" and I'm taller than him so I must be lying."

I get this ALL THE TIME. To the point where I get all tin-foil-hat about it and start wondering who the hell has been lying to all these guys for all this time.

Sarolynne: "The other thing I've found at my height (this might not be true for some of the even taller women) is that I regularly have people tell me, "Oh, you should model." Ignoring how I feel about modeling, how much I weigh, my build, my eating habits, or the fact I'm not exactly a public, attention seeking person. It's like even with some friends, there are times when they look at me when all they see is a Tallgirl."

I'm sorry to hear about all the gawkers.

My ex-gf (6'3") had some creative comebacks for when people asked her if she was a model or played basketball.

She would say no, I'm a gymnast (or a figure skater) and then watch their minds whirl as she walked away.

When I was younger, I used to get "How is the weather up there" by pesky annoying folks alot. The dream comeback is to spit on them and tell them it's raining, but that would be just too mean.

"I also hate when I’m talking about how hard it is to find pants that fit me and someone who is 5’1� or so says “Oh, I know, it’s sooo hard for me to find pants too!� Um, no, it isn’t. "

Um, yes, it is. Just because there's different difficulties, or even less difficulty, doesn't mean it's not frustrating to try to find pants when people seem to assume that if you're short then you're super skinny.

And for all the people talking about intimidating tall women and Amazons? Thanks a lot. Seriously, just because I'm short and small doesn't mean you get to laugh at me when I'm angry with you. Nor does it mean you can belittle me or talk down to me, and it doesn't mean I'm going to put up with your crap. And while I'm at it, I don't appreciate being told that I'll be glad I look young when I'm 40.

Being taller does NOT make one superior (and yes I've had people say that before).

As a 5'2 woman, I don't get too many comments about my size, although I definitely get more "you're so little"s and "you're so cute"s than my friends who are 5'4 or 5'5. People DEFINITELY have a tendency to view tall women as strong, intimidating, or even more worthy of reverence or respect than small women. We seem to be viewed as childlike, "cute" rather than "pretty" or "sexy", and easily walked all over in social situations.

My mother is 5'10 and weighs well under 100lbs, and she CONSTANTLY gets people commenting on her size, patting her head, asking how much she weighs (seriously!), and treating her like she's 10 instead of 45. Both of us often find that we have to be much louder, more forceful, and even ruder than we naturally are in many situations just to be noticed or taken seriously. Like Wildberry said, our feelings are also taken less seriously. Men in particular think it's just so damn CUTE when we're mad, and everyone is definitely prone to talking down to us.

And Shelbywoo: It IS just as hard for us to find pants! Petite sizing is different in every store; some places seem to make pants only for chunky short people, others only for sticklike short people, and others that are just plain out of proportion (made for someone 5'2 but with size 12 hips, for instance). The only plus to being short rather than tall is that you can just give up and buy regular length pants and shell out $30 to have them hemmed.

There are downsides and upsides to being both tall and short. But one thing I'll never forget is my mom saying sadly, "When you were little the doctor told me you'd probably be about 5'5... but oh well, at least you're taller than me."

"Also, did anyone else get kept out of the ball pit at Chuck E. Cheese when they were still young enough to be going there for birthday parties? Luckily I had some great friends who refused to go in when they found out I was too tall, and one even told 'Chucky' about it!"

Not me, but the BBC just had an article on (among other things) how hard having an unusual height can be when people assume your age from your height:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/7305035.stm

"What do you do when you are two years old and tower over all your playmates?...

"...Other parents who see Liana often question her mother about her in the street, asking why she is still in a pushchair when she looks like a five-year-old. Others believe she is an older child with learning difficulties.

"'It's heartbreaking,' said Ms Lisle, from Hampshire.

"'Like any mum I'm extremely proud of Liana and I want to show her off to the world. But because she looks about four or five people thinks she's backward, but she's not. She's a very bright little girl.'..."

Yeah... I meant that my mother is 4'10. FOUR FOOT TEN. Oops.

"The only plus to being short rather than tall is that you can just give up and buy regular length pants and shell out $30 to have them hemmed."

Is hemming really so hard that you need to pay to have someone else do it? If you abhor sewing, I totally understand, but it is soooooo much cheaper to buy a cheap sewing machine (they even have mini ones that you can pick up and use to sew stuff you are already wearing), and hem yourself. I have a little one which I use for basic repair, etc.

I dont really get why someone would find a tall woman intimidating but everyone has their own thing. As a guy who is 6'5 and also very wide I usually get the football question not the basketball one. I do remember gawking at one female I knew in high school, she was 6'7 and must have been at least 300 pounds, seeing something that much outside the norm was just startling at first. Women who are -average- tall to very tall, well I hardly notice them unless I stop and think about it. Height doesnt register much to me especially with women as 80% of the guys Ive known over 6'4 and 99% of the girls Ive known over 6 feet have been what I would call skinny or thin, its rare to see someone over 6'4 over 230 pounds who isn just fat. The worst questions/comments I've receieved was when I was dating a 4'11 90 pound woman, a lot of personal questions on how exactly "that works".

I dont know if tall women feel the same way but I often wish I was 6'1 190 and not 6'5 250 just so I could be just a little tall, go unnoticed and have everything in this world from cars to clothes work for me.

I am 5'11, and ever since I realized I had stopped growing, I've been kinda hacked off about it... I was hoping for an even six! The consolation prize is that I am that much less uncomfortable on airplanes. Long rides are brutal enough as it is.

I also hate when I’m talking about how hard it is to find pants that fit me and someone who is 5’1� or so says “Oh, I know, it’s sooo hard for me to find pants too!� Um, no, it isn’t.

I'm going to agree with Wildberry, and state that hell yeah it is. I'm 5'0, and not even the "short" length jeans fit me properly. I find it to be a rather cruel joke that I have to remove almost 3-4 inches off a pair of "short" length jeans. And forget about capri pants; they just look like regular pants, but pretty ridiculous (think tapered-style pants...eek).

The "petite" department caters to just that: petite women. It's almost an useless concept if you're short and have curves. Besides, the majority of "petite" department sections/stores are directed towards women in their 30s-40s. Ann Taylor? Banana Republic? Nope, definitely not for this mid-20 year old.

Is that gender-specific or height specific?

For example, do you feel uncomfortable talking to tall men and women, or is it something about tall women in particular?

It's gender-specific. I'm 6 feet tall, so, most men tend to be my height, or close to it, on average.

What do you think leads you to feel that way?

I couldn't begin to even formulate a guess. I'll be the first to admit there's no rational, or logical basis for it. But there it is.

"I can get out of my chair and look DOWN at them."

Because looking down at someone means they must be intimidated, huh? You sure showed them. All of us short people cower before your mighty tallness.

I've had many people try to pull that on me. I laugh at them, and say "You think that's going to work?"

Nice to know you're the type of person who likes to physically intimidate people.

Well, speaking as a guy who was short for a while until he turned 16, I can say this height thing goes both ways. I know when I was relatively short (5'1"), I was definitely uncomfortable with my height, and got more than a few comments. I since grew nine inches, to fill out around 5'10.5", which is actually above average, and there is a substantial difference in how you get treated as a guy. I mean, short guys do get treated worse, and I know the experience for tall women would probably be of a similar sort.

Nice to know you're the type of person who likes to physically intimidate people.

Oh get a bloody grip ... yes, I'll use my physicality to make the world a safer place for myself. I won't make apologies for that in the slightest.

Interesting that you'll critique a woman for using her body for power and strength though ... nice to know that you're the type of person that can't get past their own issues.

"I couldn't begin to even formulate a guess. I'll be the first to admit there's no rational, or logical basis for it. But there it is."

I don't even know you other than a lot of you posts and I'd be willing to bet there's a psychological basis for it. But... you've never struck me as one of the more introspective posters. Thoughts?

Personally...

I have a complex in part b/c nearly every guy who I really liked in high school or college wound up in a relationship with a really short girl. For one of them, I know he's been with at least two girls significantly shorter than he is, who both had dark hair, round faces. I'd like to think it wasn't about them being attracted to shorter girls... but I really have to wonder.

I'm 23 and 5' and my height has always been a big issue for me. Last Monday on the way to the St Patrick's parade in Boston, some drunk firefighters asked me how tall I was and proceeded to tell me that it was "alright" that I was so small because "good things come in small packages." Thanks, because I was totally looking for their approval.

I also had a tall female friend tell me in high school that guys only liked me because they liked feeling powerful. That one has stuck with me for a while.

I work at an elementary school and I'm constantly having parents joke with me because omglol they mistook me for an 11 year old. Real funny.

If being tall is equated with being powerful, then of course being short is equated with a lack of power. It can weigh pretty heavy on someone - I know short guys who get a lot of crap for it too. It makes sense in terms of a patriarchal society since men are generally taller than women; tallness aligns itself with strength and capability, while shortness holds the opposite. I think people are uncomfortable with tall women because they throw this implied sense of male power off kilter.

(And these guys who I liked were all a little taller than me, making them a little above avg for guys.)

I don't even know you other than a lot of you posts and I'd be willing to bet there's a psychological basis for it. But... you've never struck me as one of the more introspective posters. Thoughts?

I'm introspective, to an extent. I don't really ever share personal thoughts/emotions/revelations with anyone who isn't me, though.

I've thought about it before. I really can't come up with an explanation that makes sense, and feels right.

It's not like I'm saying women that are 6'5" intimidate me. Women that are my own height intimidate me.

It makes no real, tangible sense.

You're foolish if you think that simply being tall will make the world a safer place for you.

You think only tall women can be strong? I'm not critiquing you because you use your body in that way, I critique because you actually think that being tall means you are somehow more worthy of respect. I got into a fistfight with my brother, who weighs 250 pounds. That's about 135 pounds more than me. I can't win against him, but I WILL have respect. I've had enough of people belittling me for my size.

I have no issues with my body. I guarantee that I like being short as much as you like being tall. I take issue with people acting like shortness is somehow a disadvantage.

My daughter is just 7 1/2 months old, but is off the charts in height. That doesn't always translate to growing up tall, but given her genes (see my comment upthread) it's likely.

So all you tall women who posted: What's your best piece of advice for raising a tall woman? What do you wish your parents had said or done?

You're foolish if you think that simply being tall will make the world a safer place for you.

Where the hell did I say that? I said I can use it to make me safer as part of whom I am ... no woman is ever safe in our culture.

You think only tall women can be strong?

Where the hell did you get that from? Damn, talk about projection.

I've had enough of people belittling me for my size.

Again with the projection.

Good grief, you've got some serious issues.

5' 10" and will turn 60 in a couple of months. Some things I understand now that I didn't used to:
1. In the long run, no one cares how tall you are. You're either a jerk or not.
2. Some men like going out with tall women precisely because it transgresses social expectations and suggests that they are extra-manly. Think of all those troll-like moguls with their much taller trophy wives.

Some things are and have always been true, however:

1. It sucks be 13 and a head taller than the boys.
2. It also sucks to have Size 11 feet and not be able to buy cute shoes in stores.

Years ago I worked with a woman who told me that she was given hormone treatments to prevent her from growing to her projected adult height of six feet. But the treatments were botched and she topped out at 4' 10" I do not think she was particularly grateful for this intervention.

I grew up (and up and up!) in a Dutch immigrant community in Canada. So - tall was the norm, pretty much.

But I was always the TALLEST. 6'1" now. We'd line up for the annual class portrait and I'd stand, every year, next to Lisa, the #2 tallest.

Even in my huge, 50+ cousin-extended-family-clan, I was named the tallest female last year.

I've been told since I was 18 years old that I intimidate men. This from a woman who wears a friendly smile on her face, and her heart on her sleeve, every day of her life. Well, whatcha gonna do? Sure can't do anything about it, so I enjoy all the perks (reaching things, long legs, etc).

Oh, and I also wear heels just to offer my personal "screw you!" to society's expectations. My favorites are 2-3 inches, and I wear them with pride. Do I get fewer dates because of it? Yeah, probably (shrug). But then again, people who are intimidated by a couple inches are not worth my while anyways...!!

I read about hormone treatments for the first time in this thread. The idea made my skin crawl. Any doctor who suggests it will immediately cease being her doctor.

Comment for jfaustus:

Raise your daughter as you would any other, to be proud of her body, exactly as she is.

Besides that, my mother's best advice was to STAND UP STRAIGHT. She corrected my adolescent-impulse to hunch over, to make myself 'fit in' more. That posture is a life-long gift!!

Also, help your daughter as she develops larger feet and long legs by finding the best places to shop. For example, I love TallGirl (google it) because they carry designer-jeans with long inseams. Often they are even TOO long for me and I get them hemmed (and not a word of complaint from me about this - what a relief to actually have to HEM things!).

Yay for raising confident and beautiful tall women!!

tricia -

I grew up (and up and up!) in a Dutch immigrant community in Canada.

I am from Dutch descent as well! Born and raised in New Zealand though ... but I finished high school in the Netherlands, and it was really nice to be 'average' for a change!

My mother (who at 5'7" was the shortest in the WHOLE wider family) used to say that we needed to be such in order to keep our heads above water when the dikes burst ;)

But she brought up my sister and I to be proud of our heights and not be ashamed of them ...

Btw, might I suggest the GAP 'Long & Lean' jeans? They have three lengths in them, and they rock for me ...

Thanks, tricia.

She's already getting pretty confident. Why just the other day [administrative intervention: we're afraid we can't post that. No, sir. Yes, we understand that she is objectively the greatest child ever to grace the earth. Of course, sir. No, we will not post the 7000-word ode you have written to the blue of her eyes. Absolutely not. Sir, I may have to ask you to leave.]

Ahem.

Anyway, she'll get all the help we can give her to make it through the bound-to-be-awful teen years...

I am 5'11, black, and gay. I HATE the fact that all of this means that people like to describe me as being an "amazon". I know some people mean it as a compliment but really it comes across as a sign of my unattractiveness to most people. When people find out I'm gay on top of that, its like my femininity is totally lost. In many people's eyes I'm practically a dude. I hate this because it a) contributes to the masculinization of black women and b)its hurtful to be told that because you don't fit neatly into what a proper woman should be you just aren't one.

Being tall sucks in a lot of ways that others have already mentioned: shoes (have you ever tried to find cute shoes when you wear a size 12?), clothes (looking for long jeans/jackets/shirts is expensive) and dating (my ex-gf was 4'11 and that was a nightmare at times). But what really bother me is body image. At 5'll if I weigh less than 160 pounds i look sickly. I'm not saying its the case for everyone but it is for me. So I keep my body weight between 160-175 and that intimidates so many other people especially men. And as much a I wish this were otherwise, this also happens in the lesbian community.

Thank you for writing this post and giving me a chance to vent!

Sydney -

I am 5'11, black, and gay.

Er, you wouldn't happen to be towards the end of a law degree would you? I'm just seeing if you are the same awesome woman I dated briefly a few years ago ...

Be sure to tell your daughter in her teen years that the best boys she will ever date are the ones that are shorter than her. Because (as I said above) I feel that shorter guys who are fine with dating taller girls tend to be less insecure, and overall (I feel) much more likely to be cool with unconventional gender roles.

Not that I haven't had good boyfriends who were taller, but when I was growing up, most boys were shorter, and I felt like I couldn't date anyone until someone gave me that advice.

hahahaha- Sarah your suspicions are correct! Good to hear from you!

Woohoo! Yay! Good to see you Sydney! :)

my best friend is 5'11" and gay, and she has an "unfeminine" body type. Broad shouldered, small breasts, waist and hips are about the same width. She has struggled with that her whole life. After she came out people were like "oh, that explains it" as if that body was in anyway an indication of her sexuality. It was disgusting. That being said, she also has a very beautiful face and is awesome to the point of no return.

I think that women who are tall + gay is just a double whammy to insecure men who date only short girls "because they just like short girls" and who call every woman who speaks her mind a "bitch", in order to justify their hatred of strong women.

Btw, Sydney, in addition to the small "woohoo" post above ... I still consider you one of the sexiest and most incredibly attractive women I have ever known ... and while I know you hardly need my affirmation, I just thought I would put that out there for you.

insecure men who date only short girls "because they just like short girls"

Are you really chalking up preferences in physical attraction to insecurity?

I looove this thread, and I can relate to so much of it. Now I'm not exactly 'super tall', I'm around 5'9" or 10". However I am usually either eye to eye or up to a head taller than other people. It took me many, many years to even TRY to stand up straight, because slouching makes me average height.
I can also relate to Sydney, about the masculinity thing. I'm a jeans-and-t's-and-sneakers kinda girl, PLUS I have short hair, PLUS I don't wear makeup... I can't even count the number of times I've been called 'sir' by cashiers, etc. And the weight thing, argh! I'm at a really healthy weight for my body type, considering I'm fairly active and athletic, and people always ask me if I've got an eating disorder, or if I'm a model, etc. People have insisted to me that I should try out for canada's next top model, etc., because I'm tall and thin, and it drives me nuts!
That said, I have grown (har har) to love my height and my body type in general. I used to get made fun of a LOT as a kid for being so darn lanky and it took a really long time for me to realize that I look good, and people who say otherwise can screw themselves anyhow.

UGH and the shoes thing drives me CRAZY... I see sooo many nice shoes that I'd love to have but they either don't come in my size, or once they ARE in my size, they just aren't quite so cute anymore, haha.

As a 6'4" transsexual woman, I have had the unique perspective of being seen as a tall man, and now, being seen as a tall woman. Not a whole lot has changed since transition. People still stare. People still ask the same stupid questions. Clothing is still hard to find, but only just a little bit harder... and in some cases, even easier. And forget about finding women's shoes..... but then again, it's not like finding comfortable and not super expensive men's shoes was ever easy either (I'm a size 14 in men's - 15 to 16 in women's).

For me, my gender hasn't gotten in the way of how people treat my tallness. Being a tall guy or girl has resulted in much of the same uncomfortable icky. :\

I have never seen anything "powerful" about being tall. I've also never seen anything submissive about being small either. It's just a fact of life, even though I will always wish I was a foot smaller. *sighs*

Oh well - it is what it is...

I really don't want to turn this into a tall v. short (although it seems to already have gone there), but short people have significant disadvantages, too. I need a stool to reach most things in my own kitchen or my office, and I'm ONLY 5'3". I imagine it would be much worse if I was shorter than that, because even with my stools I can barely reach things on the mid-top shelves (I cannot reach top shelves and MUST rely on someone else). The typical house is built for the average MAN's height so any woman under 5'8" is disadvantaged in her own home. (Just an example).

I guess the point is, don't dismiss someone just because they're on the opposite side of the spectrum. Re. jeans, yeah tall people may have to special order, but short people have to pay $10-30 MORE than them for pants because of hemming (petite does not fit 70-80% of short people, it's only made for short AND thin people), and we won't even get into dress sizing, although I suspect dresses are way too short on tall women just as they are way too long on shorter women. The fashion and clothes industry is built around the 5'6", 150 pound model and if you don't fit into that, for whatever reason, you're screwed. This isn't a height olympics, but an opportunity to see things a way you maybe haven't seen them before.

I saw the title of this post and thought it was something about the place I work since, well, I work at a store called Tall Girl. No, it's not a 'big and tall'...we sell clothes for women (or men) that want clothes longer than what you'd find at other retailers, and we offer them from size 5 to 22.

Enough of my plug, haha. All I'd like to say is that working at a store that caters to tall women (or, like I said, men who require women's clothes) is wonderful. I daily encounter beautiful, confident women - whether they be co-workers or customers - who have taken any hurtful, negative comments and turned them into positives. They are such inspirations. It's made me grow to not only love my own height (5'10") but to just learn to love myself in general.

Seriously, ladies and gentlemen, if you need clothes please check out www.tallgirlshop.com and if you're near Irvine, CA come say hello! :)

I swear, Ann, I'm not just here to promote my place of business. Hehe.

The thing about being tall for me is all about line of sight. I once went to a wedding with some old co-workers, all of whom ranged in height from 4'11" to 5'5". I happen to be 5'10".

It is one thing to be seated and to chitchat and catch up, but once the dancing started things really got awkward for me. There is nothing quite like the fun of dorking out with your friends and dancing to cheesy wedding music. The fun in a large part comes from the ability to look over at a friend and share a laugh at the craziness and whoohoo and all that.

But it's kind of hard to turn your head and make eye contact with people whose faces aren't at the same level as yours by a good 5-11 inches. For me they just don't look up unless I really make the effort to draw their attention, which I could easily do but still. There is a part of me (particularly when dancing) that just wants to enjoy the moment, have fun, and not stand out.

And another thing about dancing (which in general really gets people to notice physical attributes in the people around them), I remember going to my first proper club in college and being so disappointed because my head really was above the crowd, and again I just wanted to enjoy myself with my friends and not really stand out.

Regarding line of sight, I'm sure this is the same for people who are shorter and happen to be in a group of people who are tall. You turn your head and there is no one right there seeing the world from your perspective. Being the odd person out is always like that in the end.

I have had more issues with my height than I like to think. I slouch not because I want to be shorter, I just want to be at the same eye level with the people around me.

Also as I have grown up, height has played with my head a little. It is very strange in high school (for example) to tutor at your old elementary school and work with your old 2nd grade teacher, who is now a head shorter than you. It confused me because I had the height (and then some) of an adult but I so wasn't an adult mentally. Sometimes I feel like I am growing (in maturity) into my height. And sometimes (like the club situation mentioned above) where you have expectations about stuff you will do as an adult, you come to realize that those ideas of adulthood won't exactly play out the way you thought they would. But I'm sure this is the same for everyone.

I think I wasn't clear in the tone of my last post; I really didn't mean to dismiss the inconvenience of tall women having to special order clothes, just to point out the inconvenience of shorter women having to have them hemmed; I think it is comparable (special order=extra time (1-2 weeks); hemming = extra money ($10-30) and extra time (1-7 days)). I was just trying to say, both options are crappy and unacceptable so it isn't right to outright dismiss one or the other. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I just wanted to add my two cents in as a fellow "tall girl." I think all of this - the intimidation factor from men, the dating preferences, at least in a heterosexual context, is all about power through size.

I have a few reasons for feeling this way. I am tall - 5'10". But I am thin too, about 115 lbs. I also have small feet - size 7.5. So even though I've been "tall" my entire life, I have been reading these posts wondering why I have never really been called "amazon" or seen to be "intimidating" and I think that it's because my external, first-impression identity to people I meet is not "tall" but rather "thin". I think my figure trumps my height and people (espcially men) are NOT intimdated me because I still seem "small" and "feminine" and "fragile". ugh. (or at least until I open my mouth).

Okay. secondly. I am bisexual and I have recognized that I have internalized the notions of male/female power relations because when I date and sleep with girls, I don't feel the same way about my body as I do with men. When I sleep with or date men, I want to be SMALL. I want to be thinner and smaller and I want him to be bigger than me. And I am saying this as a 28 year old woman's studies graduate. I certainly recognize the implcations of thinking like this. But at the same time, there it is, this is how I feel.

I think that many of us - Ennui included - internalize this notion that men should overpower women - physically at least. I don't know, thoughts?

being disabled, I cant help be insanely offended by the persons statements about being tall and not a "freak", you know, those people who are suposed to be stared at, like circus freaks or disabled people... yeah... go stare and mock the disabled person struggling to get in the door that lacks handicap opening divices like your suposed to, and leave the poor 6feet and over woman alone...

*seeeth*

My wife from Japan is five foot nine, over an inch taller than myself. In Japan, this is quite tall for a woman, and equal to the contemporary average Japanese male aged 20-24, incidentally the tallest Japanese have been since figures have been recorded. She is a full six inches taller than the average Japanese woman, and the bell curves of height must be narrower in Japan, because in 12 years of living there, I recall meeting less than a handful of Japanese women of equal or greater height, including the time I met professional volleyball players during the 1994 Asian Games. I have also encountered only a like number of Japanese males more than about six feet tall. I have never personally encountered a varsity football sized Japanese male.

Commentators believe the increased height of younger Japanese today (but lower bone density) is due to increased protein in the diet, and a greater likelihood to use Western furniture (e.g. chairs), and not to sit on the floor on top of their folded legs, conjectured to allow growth of bone. Which is to say that generations of older Japanese are shorter. I have encountered a great many Japanese, male and female, under five feet in height, and even down to barely four feet tall, if that (the level of my sternum), even if they are not visibly experiencing osteoporosis. This means that even a "short" American male like myself was taller than approximately 80% of people I passed on the street in Japan, including foreigners (Westerners are only about one quarter of 1% of all people in Japan). I did know at least three Australian women who were six feet and over. This height disparity did contribute to my feeling of security and personal safety while there.

All this to preface how life can be harsh for tall people in Japan, particularly women. Even someone of average modern Japanese height like myself can sometimes have difficulty making it under Japanese doorways or sitting in cars and bathtubs. Kimono are not customarily made for women over average height, and my wife was never able to wear any, even while studying traditional tea ceremony (they are meant to reach the ankle bone, but on my wife, simply look like a dress). Why not have them tailored or custom made? Because back in the day before Japanese shopped for values and expected reasonable prices (the later recession years in the 1990s), even off the shelf kimono (formal ones are made of silk) cost over a thousand dollars, easy. [I once knew an American man who was six foot eight and IIRC, 260 lbs., the tallest person I have known. He had to travel special to a district in Tokyo famous for its sumo training stables to find large clothes, and even then, the clothes were made for obese men, and not suitable for him, the smallest waist size being 110 cm (43 inches). He recalled that children used to amuse themselves trying to jump up and reach his outstretched hands.]

My wife's figure is proportionate to her height, which is to say that while she is slim and well within average weight for her height, with average BMI and body fat percentage, she is a Japanese dress size 13 (US size 6), which made her selection of wedding gowns very limited. Japanese brides are apparently expected to be about 5 foot 3 and 110 pounds or less. Fortunately casual clothes and ordinary suits have more flexibility in sizes. When I was 15 pounds lighter, she could also wear my clothes and shoes.

My wife wears a male US size 9 shoe, with a 24.5 cm foot. Japanese women's shoes in stores are offered up to 24.0 cm in length. This extra quarter inch in foot length meant my wife could not find women's shoes except during special seasonal sales at the largest department store in the region when they were brought in, and cost at least $200. Now that my wife no longer works in a business office environment, she simply wears men's casual shoes, or sneakers. She also shops at American discount stores where her size is not unusual, and shoes can cost $10 a pair.

Tall women in Japan today are seen as more glamorous than previously (a good number of celebrities and leading actresses are tall women, with or without a background in fashion modeling), but there is a strong sense in Japan that men should be taller than their female partners, and tall women not considered appealing to shorter men. One tall (about 5'10"?) woman interviewed for one news article recalled how she was once told that her only chance to "get" a man was to be a prostitute. I wonder how my wife's height contributed if at all, to five failed attempts at arranged marriage. There is nothing about her to make her less appealing as a marriage partner.

"I think that many of us - Ennui included - internalize this notion that men should overpower women - physically at least."

I believe that is what the expected disparity in height/weight is supposed to imply. That or that the man is better able to "protect" the woman. I consider it bullshit, myself, though I do like the feeling of embracing women about four inches shorter than myself (interestingly enough, 5'3" is average height for women in both US and Japan) as opposed to reaching up (my wife has high hips and shoulders). Aside from her height, part of what appealed to me was my wife's strength, mental and physical. At the age of 16, she escaped her abusive stepmother, making her way about 200 miles across the country by standard bicycle over three days to get to her grandmother's house; one night breaking into an elementary school to find a place to sleep, with nothing to sustain her all this time but a single soft drink she bought with a coin she found under a vending machine. I was impressed. She was also strong enough to help me move house prior to being married, carrying heavy boxes up a steep flight of stairs with no handrails. My wife is also supportive when I am at school or between jobs, serving as the only source of income. Currently, I am at home with the children during one of their long school breaks, because my wife is better able to get a job. [Don't ask me why my bachelor's in business, 12 years experience teaching and nine years in a Japanese office including two years supervisory experience, foreign language ability, some publication, computer skills and a nursing license, count for so little in my own hometown.]

I believe what I like about feminism is what I like about wife: I feel less concerned about my own limitations if my wife and women in general are willing and able to care for themselves. I believe in people treating each other with respect or having good manners, but gender based "chivalry" should die.

GrimaWormtongue,

I am neither making light of your situation or your comments, but as a nurse with an interest in psychiatric nursing, with a claimed 4-6 diagnoses of my own, depending on who is receiving $130-$180 per hour, "insanely offended" is a poor choice of terminology. I can tell you that my *alleged* ADHD (diagnosed at age 38) is one reason I was explicitly denied a security clearance for federal employment, and my *alleged* bipolar disorder is why I doubt I will be considered for law enforcement or a permit to purchase a firearm for home defense. If I wanted to harm myself or someone else (as my psychiatrist fears), I wouldn't need a gun.

I'm just under 6', and many people can't get over the fact that I think I'm normal. But, what else am I supposed to think? My worldview is shaped by, well, me! I'm not as tall as some women out there, but I've heard it all--nasty comments about why I shouldn't wear heels, how I should be a model (at least I did when I was a teen and slimmer), asked if I play basketball, asked how tall my dad is (6'3", not especially tall for a man), asked how the weather is up there. "Obviously the air isn't as thin as down there," is my usual reply. Yes, I get the thing about how I'm so lucky in clothes--although I should point out that while you can always hem pants and shorten sleeves, pants don't come with hems to let down. If pants don't fit, I can't get them altered, I have to find others. Try finding maternity clothes for a tall woman who isn't especially slim, it isn't easy. Thank you, Gap and Old Navy! The first pieces of clothing that I ever put on that seemed to be made for my height were wedding gowns. I guess they make them big and expect to alter them down for everyone else (although some did need "extra length.") I love vintage clothes but I've never found any that fit.

Anyway, the whole point of this is that extremely tall women are just another example of "the other" in our society. We make a lot of people nervous because just by our very existence we appear to be taking some of the rights of men. And I'm proud of that, sometimes I feel like I'm doing feminism a favor just by existing. We tall women look powerful and strong, which is why we get the "Amazon" jokes. (In elementary school, when one boy would not stop calling me an Amazon, I finally kicked him hard in the shin and told him that the ancient Amazons used to hobble [lame one leg] their men. He never called me that again except from a safe distance and when he was with a group of friends.) I've always been proud of my height, and I've always been sorry that I didn't grow enough to quite hit 6', although I generally tell people I am 6'. ;) So what I intimidate some men--then they weren't worth my time. My husband is 6'1", and he loves it when I wear heels. And these days I've embraced my Amazon image: the last few years for Halloween I've dressed as a Valkyrie and as Amazon.com.

Faustus--don't tell your daughter she's beautiful because she's tall. Just tell her she's beautiful, and perfect just the way she is.

It's just very interesting to me how society equates body type (in this case, height I guess) with power. I wonder how it got to be that way, sometimes. I think the tall=power is more myth for women, since obviously a lot of tall women experience a lot of disrespect for being so.
I'm quite petite (at 21 I've just finished growing to a ripe 5'1"....barely.) and I have absolutely been through the head-patting, infantilizing treatment by all kinds of people even as an adult. It's pretty shitty, not gonna lie. I just think it's important to remember that regardless of body characteristics or the ridicule it brings as a woman, it all sucks. Being tall doesn't suck more than being short, and being short certainly doesn't suck any more than being tall, etc. It just seems silly to me that people are arguing over who has the most inconvenient clothing alterations when perhaps we should be stepping back a little and looking at why we even have to talk about issues of height.

The height-gender issue is playing out very interestingly in here.

I do see a few sides of this, being that my husband is 6'6" and I'm either 5' or 4'11.5" depending on the time of day. Im also very curvy and he is crazy skinny. Its like Jack sprat and his wife :)

We have the experience of not only being singled out because of our respective heights but because of our weights. And when we are together in public? forget it.

And to try to rise above this whole "who has it worse" that this thread seems to have become to a point, I think we can all agree that we all have problems with people thinking they have the right to treat us like we are public property to be commented on and/or touched because of our bodies and the condition of them (yes GrimaWormtongue, this means you too)

I think height difference is one of those things that goes all the way back to our primate ancestors. If you go to the zoo and ask the zookeepers which chimpanzees are male and which are female, the females will most likely all be smaller than the males.

Of course, we humans also have culture to contend with, and it seems to me (a short woman: 5'1") that many men do prefer smaller women because of that ideal of male protectiveness. Anecdotally, this holds true for me. For instance, a very good friend of mine is only ever interested in petite women. We dated briefly years ago and I broke up with him because he became very, very protective as soon as we were officially dating and it drove me insane! I've known/dated a lot of men who were like that, who treated me like I wasn't able to take care of myself because I'm small, to the point that I sometimes had to be more violent just to show that yes, I could actually take care of myself. (There have also been comments made about my supposed better ability to perform fellatio because of my height (!) that suggest that many men think that small women can be dominated easier.)

To all the tall women on this thread, I'm curious: have you ever experienced anything like this (having assumptions made about your ability to physically defend yourself merely because of your height)?

I also hate when I’m talking about how hard it is to find pants that fit me and someone who is 5’1� or so says “Oh, I know, it’s sooo hard for me to find pants too!� Um, no, it isn’t. Almost every department store has a petite section, I know of none that have a tall section for women. I have to order through catalogs, on-line or find specialty tall stores (which are very rare in the U.S.). Shorter women also have the option of hemming longer pants. I can’t make 31� inseam pants stretch to the 37� inseam I need. Sorry, but it is not the same. I’m sure being 5’1� has it’s own issues, but finding clothing isn’t one of them.

I have to agree with the other posters here and say that you're full of shit. I understand it's not the same, but finding clothes most certainly is a problem for small women. And hemming pants that are made for a woman who is 5'6 doesn't give you a good fit, because the rise of the pants is often too long and that means that the crotch is about 2 to 3 inches away from my anatomical crotch, which is not only unflattering, but uncomfortable as well.

As far as height in general, I've had people make fun of me for my height, or at least try to. I'm 5'0 and any time people try to rip on me, I'm like "I don't even understand what you're making fun of. I don't care about being short. I don't see how it's something to make fun of me for." It usually shuts them up.

I am terribly conscious about my height, and I am not as tall as some women here. I am 5'9", but I will say even at that height I get quite a bit of attention for being a "tall woman", and occasionally it does result in harassment. But harassment comes to women no matter what.
With that being said I do not like wearing heels, it is partially because of an ankle injury and a history of back problems, but it is also that I do not like towering over other women.

Clothing is another issue, but my issue is from the perspective is I don't have issues with it. There is something very wrong about being 5'9" and fairly skinny, not having to worry about my cloths, but my roommate who is 5'5" who is fairly curvaceous struggles regularly to find cloths that fit. I think issues with cloths are a problem most if not all women have to deal with to some extent. There are very few that do not struggle.

Can we please start getting away from the "who's got it worse" arguments? It's not adding any constructive ideas to the issue at hand.

waxghost,

Yes. there are assumptions made about my ability to defend myself all the time. I get; "Oh, don't piss her off, she will kick your ass." It's not much of a hardship, just annoying. Mostly because if they really knew me they would know I don't like confrontation, especially physical. I have stopped a few fist fights between people by just getting in between them and telling them "No, not on my watch." Funny how it stopped them cold, because if they had not been so taken aback by my size they surely would have pummeled me for getting in the way.

On the dating front....hmmm...interesting what you say about male protectiveness. I had never thought of it before. I have never felt like any men I have dated felt they needed to protect me. So, then are we discovering that we have two very different views on how men percieve a relationship simply because of our respective sizes? (Or maybe I'm just clueless.) That is interesting all on its own.

This is a great thread! I like being a tall woman...didn't always, mind you...but the older I get the better the air is up here. Thanks for posting this stuff, nice to know we aren't alone.

Can we please start getting away from the "who's got it worse" arguments? It's not adding any constructive ideas to the issue at hand.

It shouldn't be tall vs. short, but tall/short vs. average. (Just kidding... hehe)

I think there can at times be a little annoyance (for me as a tall person) when talking about height with other people because many people don't want to empathize.

Often when height is brought up, I feel like I shouldn't really complain because when I do people give me really strange (almost "fuck you") looks like it is impossible that height might be a problem for me.

I've mantained my whole life that I am 5'10 and only recently had to admit that I might be taller than that. If people keep telling me what a blessing it is to be tall, then why do I still feel shy when I'm taller than the person I'm standing next to, particurlarly if they are a man?

Thinking about it now, I realize that it might be because being tall implies a responsibility that you will be noticed when you walk into a room (or leave on early than you should) and thus, on display more often. As a somewhat shy person, I don't always want this responsibility. I have always felt a pressure to be "tall and graceful" but instead feel embarassed by my at times complete lack of coordination and grace (this also brings up the pressure to play "tall people sports" which I hate because of so many of those typical gym class memories). In many situations it would be easier to quietly go along with the crowd unnoticed. Thank god that this hasn't been the case in my life. I probably would have gotten completely lost in the shuffle. Living up to my height (and my name) has been a challenge, but one that has defined who I am and helped me to become a more fully-realized woman.

I think shorter women also go through this struggle to be noticed for who they really are, as well as heavier women, darker women, plan women...even beautiful women have to work to define themselves apart from their appearance. I don't think men go through this as much, but it might also mean that they lack the depth that results from making peace on the inside in order to fully accept outer appearances.

And on a more personal note, I have walked alongside Ann many times and noticed the onlookers and gawkers, who come in all forms. However, my own personal theory is that they don't stare at Ann because she is tall...well, they do partly but I think mostly they stare because she's lovely and has style and a presence that fascinates people to no end, myself included.

This is such a great thread! I'm 5'10 and have two sisters that are taller than me! When we go places together we often get some stares.

"Also, did anyone else get kept out of the ball pit at Chuck E. Cheese when they were still young enough to be going there for birthday parties?"

OMG yes! But on the other hand we were always tall enough to ride amusement park rides ;)

I've mantained my whole life that I am 5'10 and only recently had to admit that I might be taller than that. If people keep telling me what a blessing it is to be tall, then why do I still feel shy when I'm taller than the person I'm standing next to, particurlarly if they are a man?

Thinking about it now, I realize that it might be because being tall implies a responsibility that you will be noticed when you walk into a room (or leave on early than you should) and thus, on display more often. As a somewhat shy person, I don't always want this responsibility. I have always felt a pressure to be "tall and graceful" but instead feel embarassed by my at times complete lack of coordination and grace (this also brings up the pressure to play "tall people sports" which I hate because of so many of those typical gym class memories). In many situations it would be easier to quietly go along with the crowd unnoticed. Thank god that this hasn't been the case in my life. I probably would have gotten completely lost in the shuffle. Living up to my height (and my name) has been a challenge, but one that has defined who I am and helped me to become a more fully-realized woman.

I think shorter women also go through this struggle to be noticed for who they really are, as well as heavier women, darker women, plan women...even beautiful women have to work to define themselves apart from their appearance. I don't think men go through this as much, but it might also mean that they lack the depth that results from making peace on the inside in order to fully accept outer appearances.

And on a more personal note, I have walked alongside Ann many times and noticed the onlookers and gawkers, who come in all forms. However, my own personal theory is that they don't stare at Ann because she is tall...well, they do partly but I think mostly they stare because she's lovely and has style and a presence that fascinates people to no end, myself included.

Sarah you are not getting this at all. Here is my problem with you: you are just oh so happy that you can get more respect when you stand up and tower over someone. Well while you're benefiting from that, I have a bunch of people not taking me seriously because I'm small, weak, and female. OBVIOUSLY that means I don't deserve respect, huh? Just remember, if you think you can demand respect from shorter people by virtue of your height, those people are going to turn around and do it to me, too. But by all means, enjoy your place of privilege.

"insecure men who date only short girls "because they just like short girls"

Are you really chalking up preferences in physical attraction to insecurity?"

Well, I think sometimes a preference probably is related to insecurity. However, there is a difference between simply being somewhat more attracted to shorter women, and actually feeling intimidated by taller women.

In the latter case, I think you can look at other aspects of the person's life outlook and feelings about women (e.g. believing women are/should be passive during sex, believing women shouldn't be taught about all their sexual organs in school, etc.) and a pattern emerges, that is probably indicative of some overarching view of women that possibly includes some insecurity issues...

Given that it's a cultural trend that many men and certain women fall into, I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate that there's some fear of women/desire for women to be "feminine"/submissive going on in situations like this. This is, after all, a feminist site, where people like to look at the big picture...

"insecure men who date only short girls "because they just like short girls"

Are you really chalking up preferences in physical attraction to insecurity?"

Well, I think sometimes a preference probably is related to insecurity. However, there is a difference between simply being somewhat more attracted to shorter women, and actually feeling intimidated by taller women.

In the latter case, I think you can look at other aspects of the person's life outlook and feelings about women (e.g. believing women are/should be passive during sex, believing women shouldn't be taught about all their sexual organs in school, etc.) and a pattern emerges, that is probably indicative of some overarching view of women that possibly includes some insecurity issues...

Given that it's a cultural trend that many men and certain women fall into, I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate that there's some fear of women/desire for women to be "feminine"/submissive going on in situations like this. This is, after all, a feminist site, where people like to look at the big picture...

OBVIOUSLY that means I don't deserve respect, huh?

Good lord, that's it, you're nuts.

What part of "I did not say that" are you finding difficult to comprehend? You're projecting a TON of your own issues onto the fact that yes, I can use my physicality to make my way through the world a tad easier. No, this does not mean I oppress short-people, it merely means I live in the same fucking cultural milieu as you.

Stop individualising cultural oppressions in society by trying to portray people according to your own insecurities.

You come onto a thread about the experiences of tall women of patriarchy and experiences of sexism and marginalisation in our society and demand that regardless of the space, that the women in this thread are somehow oppressing you as a shorter woman by not acknowledging your own personal oppressions, different from what our own have bee.

To me, your behaviour is not that different from the Mens Rights Activist trolls that come into threads on domestic violence and rape and start going on about "ZOMG, WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZZZ??!!"

I'm done with conversing with you, go find someone else to project your insecurities onto.

Regarding shyness, it is one of the reasons I am happy that I have grown to be tall. I was really shy as a kid and being tall really pushed me to be comfortable with people noticing me more.

People do react differently to my height and the vibes I give off, and I feel that my height compensated for my lack of confidence (though my sister might argue that it actually is the other way around- that my confidence was less because of my height).

As I have gotten older, my confidence has increase and so has the respect I get from people. I happen to be in a profession where most of the people are older than myself, and it helps me (personally) to be taller because people are less likely to worry about my age when they meet me.

On the flip side, when you are tall and don't have confidence, you can sometimes feel like a lumbering idiot giant (personal experience). When I was younger and just entering college, most of the girls around me were quite girly (I hate to use that term but I can't think of a better one at the moment), and I never fit into that stereotype. At times I felt almost monstrous when standing next to smaller females, and no one wants to feel like a monster.

No matter what your height is, I think most people will respond to your confidence in the end- at least I hope so. My best friend is 5'1" and the first time I met her (at work) she totally scared the crap out of me.

No matter what your height is, I think most people will respond to your confidence in the end.

*nods* I completely agree with this ... often when I say I am 5'10" people say "Really" I thought you were taller." Now, while I don't doubt that a part of this is my perchance for heels, but I have heard from a number of people that it's because of how I hold myself. Or in other words, because of projected confidence, they thought I was taller than I am.

I don't doubt that a part of that is due to the benefit of my being tall in our culture, but a goodly proportion of the people that have intimidated me and got my respect were people that were quite a bit shorter than me.

Sarah in Chicago you kick ass.

Here is my problem with you: you are just oh so happy that you can get more respect when you stand up and tower over someone. Well while you're benefiting from that, I have a bunch of people not taking me seriously because I'm small, weak, and female. OBVIOUSLY that means I don't deserve respect, huh?

I feel like there's a difference between saying "sometimes, when I'm feeling like someone is disrespecting me or trying to exert control over me, I will use the fact that I am a big/tall person to my advantage to try to reassert myself" and saying "people who are shorter or smaller than I am deserve to be treated with disrespect."

All of us deserve to be treated with respect, and if someone is imposing themselves on you, I don't think that there's anything wrong with using the tools you have at your disposal to try to regain that respectful treatment. I've used my sense of humor or my intelligence in the same way, before. That doesn't mean that people who aren't as funny or as smart as (I think) I am don't deserve respect- it might just mean that, in cases where that respect is being denied, they have to use different tools to regain it or to make themselves feel safe or confident again.

In the latter case, I think you can look at other aspects of the person's life outlook and feelings about women (e.g. believing women are/should be passive during sex, believing women shouldn't be taught about all their sexual organs in school, etc.) and a pattern emerges, that is probably indicative of some overarching view of women that possibly includes some insecurity issues...

You're really misinterpreting things I've said.

For one, I never said "women should be passive during sex", I simply said that as far as grammar and such goes, and explained my thoughts on why the language is "the penis enters.." instead of "the vagina envelops..."

That does not denote that I think women shouldn't participate or be active sexually or something.

The other thing is a simple measure of the fact that I don't think for the purposes of a "Health" class, learning about sexual pleasure isn't really important.

I don't think it stems from insecurity. I find a lot of things intimidating that have nothing to do with insecurity about them.

Like I said, women that are even taller than average intimidate me. A woman that's 5'10", which is not taller than me, is intimidating.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and there's no real deep-seated reason or explanation.

You never explicitly said that, but when you do your little trick of towering over people, are you not implying, "Respect me, for I am tall?"

You keep going on about my insecurities. I suppose when people disrespect me for my sex, its because I'm insecure? Hardly. In the same way, I will be harrassed for my height regardless of my insecurities or lack thereof.

I'm sorry but I didn't realize that because the original post was about tall women, that short women weren't allowed to talk about their experiences. The original poster should have put "FOR TALL WOMEN ONLY" in her post then so that it would be clear that my opinion was unwelcome. Plus you'll notice that I've really only taken issue with you, because you were the one who said how much you love the fact that you can intimidate with your height.

But I've said my piece and I'm done with this conversation. Just remember next time your reveling in the use of your intimidation tactics, that height is valued in our society, and those values from which you benefit are the same ones that result in the disrespect I recieve. As far as I'm concerned that's a form of privilege. But by all means, continue to dismiss my issues and do your best to perpetuate them to your benefit.

Ennui:

A cigar is just a cigar, and the psychological reaction that is to be "intimidated" by something nearly always has deeper, underlying causes, when it's not an obviously rational fear.

Wildberry:
"that height is valued in our society"

You are essentially working under a totally different assumption than most of the posters in this thread (those of us who are very tall especially). The whole point of this thread is that we feel like height is /not/ valued in women overall in our society. Sarah was pointing out that height as a woman has advantages, but that doesn't mean that it's overall "valued in our society". Short women may hate being called "cute" and thought of in that way, but I can tell you that the people who have told me height is "beautiful" (or whatever the positive stereotypes people on here people have mentioned were) have been very, very far between indeed. And my college friends who are short, are mostly quite open about the fact that they feel like men /do/ prefer shorter women and that they attract more attention at parties b/c of it. Now, that's not saying there aren't disadvantages to attracting male attention, and advantages to being able to physically intimidate men, but it /does/ mean that very tall women are /not/ valued by society as a whole.

Wildberry:

I realized maybe I can explain this to you in even shorter form:

Being intimidating is NOT the way "our society" thinks women should be. Therefore, being intimidating is NOT a culturally/socially valued trait for women. Being very tall causes women to be perceived as "intimidating". Therefore, being very tall is NOT a culturally/socially valued trait for women. Savvy?

I realize that not every single person in our society is going to consider it a bad thing for a woman to be intimidating, but feminist theory and social theory in general requires talking in /generalities/.

A cigar is just a cigar, and the psychological reaction that is to be "intimidated" by something nearly always has deeper, underlying causes, when it's not an obviously rational fear.

I don't think it does, really. For instance, jellyfish freak me out. Why? There's no real reason for it, but they do. Sometimes something just is, without a rational explanation.

Mild Ennui: You don't see a difference between being freaked out by jellyfish (for which, actually, there seems to be a rather reasonable rational explanations for: jellyfish are an animal with stinging tenticals that are alien in appearence, since they lack many of the features that human beings tend to find comforting or normal in animals. Namely, the absence of facial features or defined body parts), and being intimidated by tall women?

There are almost always reasons for the emotional reactions that we have to things, whether we're completely aware of those reasons or not.

""insecure men who date only short girls "because they just like short girls"

Are you really chalking up preferences in physical attraction to insecurity?"

Oftentimes, yes. I'm not saying that you are one of these guys, I don't even know you. I've known many guys, though, who will explicitly not date tall women because "they prefer short women." And even if he meets a tall woman who he hits it off with and shares a lot in common, and he finds her otherwise attractive, he won't date her because of his own insecurities.

I personally like darker guys. If I'm scoping out a room for a cute guy, a non-white guy usually piques my interest. However, I have nothing against dating white guys. I have dated white guys, and I will again if I hit it off with someone. My personal preference just means that I'm less likely to persue one from the start.

That's the difference between a personal preference and an insecurity.

I might be wrong, but I've never seen any of my shorter people so subject to having random strangers tell them not to wear heels when I'm out.

As a 5' woman, I get the opposite -- why don't I wear heels? Um, maybe because I have short, stubby feet and heels over 1" are incredibly uncomfortable?
I think we can say that society gives women a hard time if they're on either side of the spectrum and people don't feel inhibited about making whatever remarks they want about your height, or lack thereof.

i'm not even tall compared to most of the tall girls posting here (5'8) but i definitely concur with some of your complaints. i've even gone on dates with guys who complained about my wearing heels (a standard pair of 3-inch heels puts me at 5'11) because it would make me taller than them or w/e. i tried to be nice about it and realize that our expectations about men being taller are deeply ingrained, but it really did rub me the wrong way, mostly because i LIKE wearing heels when i go out and i like feeling tall and knowing that a guy that i was out with was uncomfortable with it made me feel self-conscious and like there was something wrong with me.

i also get frustrated with this obsession with height that a lot of people seem to have. i know personal preference is fine, but i have so many short friends who categorically refuse to date anyone under 6'0, which just sounds absurd to me. height really doesn't figure into my evaluation of attractiveness like, at all. it just doesn't. i have like, zero height preference, other than maybe keeping out some extremes. half the time i don't even really notice if someone is shorter or taller than me unless it's a marked difference and i frequently date men shorter than me or the same height so it's frustrating to me at times to hear people rule out a person based on height alone, but i guess that's just how it is.

i like my height, but at times i do wish i were a little shorter because i am susceptible to the cultural ideas that women are supposed to a) be shorter than any man they are dating and b) be small and feminine and delicate and somehow tall negates some degree of this.

jfaustus--i don't know you, but based on your posts on this site, it sounds like your daughter is in good hands, whether she's tall or not. the only thing i would really add is to somehow try to convey the notion that she doesn't have to date people who are taller than she is to erase some of this programming that might make her feel uncomfortable dating a shorter guy.

Sarah in Chicago: You are clearly disrespecting me because my favorite color is orange. And because I eat shellfish. You didn't refer to wither of those things, it's true. It's more a matter of tone. Please desist.

Mild Ennui: Everytime I see a clown I burst into uncontrollable sobs. The fit lasts no less than 30 minutes, and once -- when I accidentally bumped into one in Washington Square Park -- I was incapacitated for three days. I don't have an explanation for my reaction. In fact, I am reasonably confident it's one of those random facts of the universe, totally unrelated to any emotional issues I may have.

Sarach in Chicago (in all seriousness): we're an interesting contrast in the social construction of height. I'm a 6'6", 220 lb., guy. But until my late 20s I was scary, stick-figure thin. Growing up, bullies loved to screw with me. I guess they got points in some obscure bully book for dominating someone taller, albeit weaker, than themselves.

Combine that with a, shall we say, excessively physical style of discipline at home and the result is someone paralyzed by any form of phsical confrontation. Even staring contests.

Sarah in Chicago: You are clearly disrespecting me because my favorite color is orange. And because I eat shellfish. You didn't refer to wither of those things, it's true. It's more a matter of tone. Please desist.

Mild Ennui: Everytime I see a clown I burst into uncontrollable sobs. The fit lasts no less than 30 minutes, and once -- when I accidentally bumped into one in Washington Square Park -- I was incapacitated for three days. I don't have an explanation for my reaction. In fact, I am reasonably confident it's one of those random facts of the universe, totally unrelated to any emotional issues I may have.

Sarach in Chicago (in all seriousness): we're an interesting contrast in the social construction of height. I'm a 6'6", 220 lb., guy. But until my late 20s I was scary, stick-figure thin. Growing up, bullies loved to screw with me. I guess they got points in some obscure bully book for dominating someone taller, albeit weaker, than themselves.

Combine that with a, shall we say, excessively physical style of discipline at home and the result is someone paralyzed by any form of phsical confrontation. Even staring contests.

ROYMACIII: "I feel like there's a difference between saying "sometimes, when I'm feeling like someone is disrespecting me or trying to exert control over me, I will use the fact that I am a big/tall person to my advantage to try to reassert myself" and saying "people who are shorter or smaller than I am deserve to be treated with disrespect."

I admit to doing that sometimes, particularly in potentially dangerous situations (e.g., a guy who was physically assaulting a woman in a parking lot, and using my height to intimidate him to back off).

But what happens in your example when you substitute "male" or "white" or other physical characteristics other than height.

E.g., When a woman is being disrespectful toward me, I use my male attributes to

E.g., When an Asian person is being disrespectful toward me, I use my Whiteness to intimidate them.

Why is it any different to say that "When a short person is being disrespectful to me, I use my height to intimidate them"?

All three of those cases involve mismatches in physical traits that have different cultural valuations. Why is it okay with height but not other traits?

I'm of course guilty of using my height to my advantage sometimes as I indicated earlier. But when you put it like this, it does seem fairly inappropriate.

rileystclair: Thanks for the kind words and advice. She'll also have a good role model in my 6'1" sister, who is currently dating man much shorter than she.

jfaustus:

The clown thing -was that a joke or actuality?

I know I was scared of clowns for awhile, and it was partially related to Poltergeist (the movie) and partially related to having one pop a balloon near my face when I was a kid.

Anyway, if I was a psychologist (I'm not, admittedly) but if I was, I think I'd say that there's probably some reason behind your reaction to clowns, and that it /did not/ simply appear out of nowhere.

This whole discussion reminds me a bit of people who have been abused (sexually or otherwise) when they were very, very young. Sometimes people don't remember traumatic experiences they had when they were very young, but then they learn about what happened to them again later in life, and suddenly it helps them explain a portion of their adult behavior they'd previously been taking for granted.

So unless you're going to argue that you're just genetically programmed to be upset by clowns (which personally, seems a bit far-fetched...) I imagine there's /something/ there. Whether or not you'd consider it a "significant" event at this point in your adult life, is a whole other matter of course... But often young'ns are far more sensitive about things that adults wouldn't think twice about...

UCLAbodyimage: I don't think we'll all ever agree on this, but I personally think there's a difference between using your height to your advantage and using sex or race. I have trouble speaking in public or making announcements, for example. My voice just goes all quiet and I can't really help it. One of my friends, however, has an extraordinarily loud, booming voice that carries right across a large room. She uses this to command attention when she needs to.

The fact that she uses her voice to hold attention doesn't mean I'm any less deserving of attention when I have something to say, it just means people are more likely to tune me out whereas it's nearly impossible to ignore her.

Regarding intimidation, is it only acceptable to use your mental abilities and talents to defend yourself? I guess it comes down to what the situation calls for.

I remember thinking about this after reading those older feministing posts on women getting catcalls and being harassed on the street from a few weeks ago. It just doesn't happen all that often to me anymore, yet it happened a lot when I was in elementary school. I always attributed it to being taller than most people coupled with a certain fuck-off look I now always have (except when I'm at work, of course).

I have no problem using my physical body to intimidate when I feel physically threatened, and I agree that using height to "intimidate" shorter people or to "remind" shorter people of the difference in height is a pretty asshole thing to do.

But what happens in your example when you substitute "male" or "white" or other physical characteristics other than height.

I suspect it's circumstantial. All of us go through life dealing with the ways that other people treat us, and we have to make certain choices regarding how we respond or react to people. If someone is threatening us- one of the circumstances presented in this thread, I believe- I don't see a problem with using the attributes we have to our advantage. If making a point of height difference helps end threatening behavior or reasserts our sense of safety in a situation where someone is threatening us, I don't think that implies that someone shorter is somehow less valued or deserving of threatening behavior. It may mean that someone shorter would have to respond in a different way, though.

I think that's different from using physical attributes to bully people, though. If you're using your height to intimidate people who haven't wronged or threatened you, then you're bullying them, and that's wrong, for example.

I'm not sure about the situations you listed, because I'm not sure how that would work in the same way as height does. But, you're right, there may be situations where it's inappropriate. I don't know.

Ninapendamaishi: The clown reference was a bit of snark directed at Mild Ennui's claim that his being intimidated by tall women doesn't have any emotional roots.

re. using your height to intimidate others...I think UCLAbodyimage has a definate point, as does kjalepepper. If you're defending yourself or others from physical harm, then by ALL MEANS use each and every tool at your disposal. I don't think anyone has a problem with that. But imagine this situation: you came in late for work. Your boss is angry with you. Your boss is also half a foot taller than you. s/he walks up to you, close enough so you are face to face with her/his chest. s/he then rounds her/his shoulders and looks down at you. You are forced to look up at her/him like a child to an adult. You are then yelled at. That situation (well the physical part anyway) happens to shorter people (men and women, and children)ALL THE TIME, at work, in social situations, in stores, everywhere. It is extremely scary, very intimidating, and infantilizing. It is using one's size to tell another person that you have physical power over them and you aren't afraid to use it (much like picking up and tossing about smaller people, which also often happens, although that is a particular favorite of men that women don't usually do). It is a threat to their person and it is abusive. IMO it's no different than saying "I'm going to beat you", "I will kill you," or other verbal threats of physical violence. It is the body equivalent.

Now, I believe that is most likely NOT what Sarah was talking about, but for people who this happens to often, hearing that someone likes to use their size to intimidate shorter people, is kind of like a flash back. It reminds us of that abuse that we have and will suffer. That is probably where Wildberry's comments came from.

Fear of clowns (such as generally any other phobia) is a conditioned response. I have a fear of needles. There is no real rational reason for it. A needle cannot cause much damage, other than a little prick, yet getting my blood drawn causes me to have to lie down for ten minutes or so while the nurses laugh at me in the next room. This all started when I was 12 and had my first panic attack in science class while my teacher was talking about donating blood. The attack was unrelated to the subject, but I have ever since associated needles with that awful feeling and avoid them at all costs.

A frightening experience could have occured to make you afraid of clowns, and you might not even remember it. It could also be social conditioning. Clowns are very often portrayed as creepy by things such as "IT", or creepy paintings, or the fact that John Wayne Gacy was actually a clown when he wasn't killing people.

Intimidation by tall women could also be a social conditioning. We are taught that women are supposed to be around the 5'6" mark or below so when we are confronted with a woman who is considerably above that, it challenges our expectations, and some people might find that intimidating.

Sometimes telling ourselves that we don't have a reason for our hang-ups is just trying to save ourselves from confronting what might be an uncomfortable truth.

Edit: It is the body LANGUAGE equivalent.

Ninapendamaishi: The clown reference was a bit of snark directed at Mild Ennui's claim that his being intimidated by tall women doesn't have any emotional roots.

Well, who says it does? I can think of *nothing* that would have caused it.

Sometimes telling ourselves that we don't have a reason for our hang-ups is just trying to save ourselves from confronting what might be an uncomfortable truth.

Or maybe the truth is that there's nothing behind it.

"Or maybe the truth is that there's nothing behind it."

With all due respect, I seriously doubt it. Our bodies do not just develop a fear or hang-up about something for no reason.

Can you honestly say that you don't see why being intimidated by tall women (and not tall men) is sexist?
It's like how some white people are much more uncomfortable around black people. There is no rational explanation for it, it is an unconscious hang up. It's mostly fueled by how our media portrays blacks. Can you not possibly see the connection between this behavior and yours considering how women are always expected to be shorter.

Although it has been great to vent about my tall girl sob stories I think the general consensus seems to be that society makes pretty much everyone insecure in some way by how their physical appearance differs from the 'norm' (obviously some are affected to a greater extent than others). Just reminds me of a great poem about bullying I studied in school: Back in the Playground Blues (quote from the middle if you're interested)
"Well you get it for being different
And you get it for being black
Get it for being chicken
And you get it for fighting back
You get it for being big and fat
Get it for being small
Oh those who get it get it and get it
For any damn thing at all"

With all due respect, I seriously doubt it. Our bodies do not just develop a fear or hang-up about something for no reason.

Sure they do. I hate crowds. They make me uncomfortable. I have never had anything embarrassing or traumatic happen in a crowd. I have never had any confrontation or bad thing happen in a crowd.

They just make me uncomfortable, with no rational reason why.

Can you honestly say that you don't see why being intimidated by tall women (and not tall men) is sexist?

I don't see how it is sexist. You can't really claim an innate reaction that is outside of my control is somehow sexist.

Is it sexist to be more intimidated by very attractive women, as well?

Well, excepting, again, that there are plenty of reasonable, rational explainations for why people experience agorophobia or claustrophobia. Or even why we may find heights uncomfortable.

That you've choosen not to explore why you're having the feelings your having doesn't mean that there aren't reasons. And that you don't know the reasons and, thus, may have a hard time overcoming the feelings doesn't mean that the feelings are innate or outside of your control. I have a fear of needles. It's an extremely powerful fear that goes back to my childhood. But, that doesn't stop me from dealing with it, and getting shots when I need them or having blood drawn when it needs to be done.

Just like the language thing mentioned before- if you had the desire to change the attitude, you would. You're choosing not to doesn't mean that it wouldn't be possible.

Believe what you want. Sorry to say it doesn't make your thoughts correct, though.

Some things just are, and have no reason.

It's hard to be sure, but I think my fear of clowns can be traced back to the time a bunch of rodeo clowns on speed bludgeoned my cat to death when I was 5.

My wife, whom I jokingly sometimes call "my shorty", is 4'10" and 95 lbs. I'm 5'10" and 200. She said that she doesn't think that it affected her perception that much, that she ever felt that different. Mostly, she says, men felt that she was "cute" (I certainly did) and sometimes will help her with things she doesn't need help with (offering to help her under the hood of her car and stuff). She has to use a stepladder to get at a lot of things in the kitchen or around the house, and often has some trouble with clothes. She often has to get alterations or tailoring, and one time bought like a dozen pairs of the same shoes she liked that were in her size so that she'd have a supply for a few years. She has trouble with a lot of things of mine that are built for my size. She couldn't easily use my 19.2V cordless drill, has trouble seeing over the dash in my car, and can't handle a lot of types of guns when we go shooting (I tried to get her to shoot a magnum load from my 12-gauge once for laughs, she balked, to my disappointment). She says that she gets more attention than she thinks she otherwise would, people notice her. I've always thought that she has an outsized personality for her size, sort of a version of a Napoleon thing, she has to do more sometimes I think to get people's attention or be taken seriously, or at least thinks that she does. She was the one who more or less asked me out initially.

I just finished reading the April Elle, which has an article about a woman who sewed a basketball team for sexual harassment (i can't remember her name and the magazine isn't with me right now). She was the VP of the team, in some capacity or other, black and also a former basketball star at her college, and I think something like 6'1. Although there were many complications in the issue, one particular part stood out to me when the author related an anecdote about a friend's reaction. When the woman filled for sexual harassment and it broke in the news, the man said he didn't believe a man would sexually harass this woman because she just wasn't attractive enough to be sexually harassed. The article also detailed the way men at work were intimidated by her for the fact that she was a forward, high powered black woman, but also that she physically stood up to them, unlike other women who had always been shorter and white. Basically, she was sexually harassed so the men could regain some power. It's interesting that to be a powerful woman is one thing, but to be a corporatly powerful woman in a field dominated by men and tall can lead to a slew of complications in terms of co-worker power games.

As for me, at 5'1, I'm worried about my own career. I'm entering into theatre carpentry, which is highly dominated by men (I've been told the largest theatre festival in Canada has about 6 women carps in the local union which employes over 100 people) and find I am constantly trying to assert that I am as physically tough as I am mentally tough, to be taken seriously. My newest boyfriend, although he knew I was short (he's a convenient 5'6) spent a lot of time saying "you really are very short" once he got up close and in my face to kiss me. I've found that presenting myself as tough and wearing unfeminine clothing makes me appear taller in people's minds. Except for those over 6 feet. They never get over the shortness.

"I am not deformed or handicapped, I’m not a circus attraction. I have strawberry blonde hair and blue eyes. What makes me different is that I’m 6-foot-4, and I’m a woman."

Admittedly I haven't read every single comment on this post (not sure if this has been addressed)...but does anyone else find this portion of this article utterly irksome?

sweet. you're not a cripple. therefore you shouldn't be persecuted.

but me, on the otherhand - 4'9 and clearly 'deformed'...well i guess i got whats coming.

discrimination indeed is not legitmate...however neither is this attitude of "well i'm normal, i'm just tall...don't lump me with the circus freaks".

this...this is what makes me lose faith in people. feminists included.

guh.

I've never been intimidated by tall people, personally. Maybe it's the fact that I went from 4'11" to 5'1" in one month because of back surgery when I was younger so I always feel really tall even though I'm not. Or maybe it's the fact that I've always been able to slip through crowds really easily. Or maybe it's the fact that people who try to use their height advantage over me usually have shins and knees within reach of my feet if necessary. ;)

Also, Heg, I should say that my awareness of the overprotectiveness of a lot of men may be because I've always been fiercely independent (couldn't even stand to be called someone's girlfriend for a long time when I first started dating), so even the slightest bit of protectiveness was/is irritating to me.

jfaustus - you're quite welcome. not to be too feministing lovefesty, but it does make me hopeful that dads are posting here. this is a bit of a rant: my dad wasn't immune to gender socialization (who really is?), but he got a lot of flak from some family and friends and just random people for raising two daughters the way he did in the heart of the bible belt and i'm ever so grateful he stuck it out. i can't remember ever thinking as a child that my parents were treating me differently in any material way than they would have if i had been a boy. they allowed us to be as "tomboyish" or as "princessy" as we wanted without reproach (and probably typically, my sister and i exhibited plenty of both behaviors) it was really actually kind of upsetting to me when i started socializing with other children more and was informed by other people that transformers and hot wheels cars were "boys' toys" and that i should be more interested in playing house or with baby dolls, which was probably the ickiest thing i could think of as a little girl. i was always shocked when playmates would rather pretend to cook or clean or feed babies when they could pretend they were like, space pirates. not that there's anything wrong with playing house of course, i just wasn't interested. a little boy who lived down the street from me growing up would always want to tag along with his older sister to play at our house because my parents would let him play dolls with us and his parents wouldn't. he grew up to be a marine for chrissake--learning to navigate the complex world of outfitting malibu barbie didn't divert him from dudeliness.

the extent to which children are discouraged from being themselves at such a young age because of gender roles is so abhorrent to me. i really didn't regard my upbringing in this regard as abnormal until i was much older, but by the time i was in high school i really began to notice among my friends a correlation between those whose parents were stricter in enforcing or encouraging what they deemed appropriate behavior for girls and those whose parents seemed to develop more distant and contentious relationships with their daughter as teenagers. often-times it seemed to me like the dads were acting out of protection of their property than out of love and concern. i'm not saying my dad has never made pointed allusions to having a shotgun and knowing how to use it in the presence of any of my hapless suitors or made me go upstairs and change because he thought my skirt was too short, but i know that he was far more proud of me for being a national merit scholar than he was for being a debutante.

my probably quirky advice for any dad raising a daughter: 1) encourage her imagination. the ability to relate to both male and female characters in stories without a second thought from early on strikes me as fundamental to ultimately developing one's truest sense of self independent of gender (or as independent as we can get).

2)never, ever let on that YOU think she is not a fairy princess (i.e., that she has value, has powers to harness, and is the heir to a great kingdom--your love and your knowledge). just make sure she knows that her specialness doesn't require a tiara and she can't wait on anyone else to slay the dragons.

my apologies. thanks Grima Wormtongue. glad to see i'm not alone.

A male: "GrimaWormtongue,

I am neither making light of your situation or your comments, but as a nurse with an interest in psychiatric nursing, with a claimed 4-6 diagnoses of my own, depending on who is receiving $130-$180 per hour, "insanely offended" is a poor choice of terminology."

you, "a male", too irk me, for dismantling the ONE other comment that critiques this problematic and ableist article on the ground of semantics.

"I understand it's not the same, but finding clothes most certainly is a problem for small women."

Yes, since high school I have known a good number of young women about five feet tall and 100 lbs or under. They may report having to shop in junior's departments of stores. Not very flattering if one is a professional like say, high school teachers, or being treated as "childlike" in general.

"you, 'a male', too irk me, for dismantling the ONE other comment that critiques this problematic and ableist article on the ground of semantics."

The OP offends because of the "freakish" element. I can respect that. Someone denied employment or the rights of "normal" and "healthy" US citizens solely on the grounds of alleged mental conditions such as ADHD (as with security clearances or federal employment) which should ideally be diagnosed in early childhood also has the right to be offended by casual use of the word "insane."