What happened to Nopper by her seatmate is outrageous, and most likely sexists.

She really doesn't give us enough details about why the SWA reps laughed at her. Were they laughing at her, or with her.

When you examine her other writings on the net, the woman is an unhinged racist who sees evil in ALL white people, including you Jessica.

http://racetraitor.org/nopper.html

I would not be surprised to find that she misinterpreted her seatmate's reaction, SWA's reaction, or is just lying to foment anger and draw attention to herself.

"If you are past your early twenties, and you're single and want to have children, you need to find a partner now.

My goodness, what a brilliant idea! Find a partner! Despite my longstanding desire to have children, I'd never though of that before! Thank goodness this article is here to show me the way! I kept meeting hordes of wonderful men and women to whom I was attracted and who were attracted to me, with whom I shared goals and perspectives on the world and could live together happily, who were ready to have children, and it never occurred to me to have a baby with one of them! That's the solution I've been looking for! I'll get right on that!

And...your ovaries won't outlast your career? But what, my career can be put on indefinite hold? Like, if I had taken two or seven years off from graduate school in order to have kids, I'd have a tenure-track job at the school of my dreams now, no problem? Or if I do it now, my tenure chances won't be affected?

Somehow it's the job of individual women to compensate for the fact that we have an institutionalized career cycle built around the life of the 1950s man which just so happens to place the time when one has to work hardest during the best child-bearing years for women? It's a systemic problem, one that won't be fixed by me spreading my legs for some guy I don't much like just in order to get knocked up.

Wow, the story about Southwest Airlines was fucked up. If I was on that flight I would have allied myself with the author. That dude shouldve been escorted OFF the plane. However, I did find some of her comments racist and distorted. Whats even more annoying is she seems to glump all white people into a mold of weird rules and outlooks. She seems to insinuate that currently considered white poeple (who were not condsidered white in the past) have the same outlook as those that were considered white in 1950s America. Personally I prefer to identify along culture lines than color of skin. I prefer to see people along cultural lines, ie Italian, Jewish, Egyptian, African ect. so its more individualized. I hate to group people by skin color.

That NYT article...I don't even know where to begin.

*headdesk*

I'll be 25 in June, so, I guess I should just forget about all that money I spent on an IUD and get with the baby making, huh?

That NYT article...I don't even know where to begin.

*headdesk*

I just want to say, about the babies first, career later article, that it didn't come off overtly sexist to me. I didn't LIKE the article, especially not the commanding tone it had, and it's up for debate whether the advice is actually good ("get a partner now" isn't very helpful, for one thing), but given that it admitted that having kids throws off a woman's career and directed its advice at women who want children, not just women in general, I think the author was just trying to be realistic and helpful. I agree with EG that there's a systemic problem making the work/family balance hard for women, but as long as the problem exists, women need to strategize to make it work as well as they can. I just saw this as strategy. Am I just being naive?

She really doesn't give us enough details about why the SWA reps laughed at her. Were they laughing at her, or with her.

Really? She seems to make it pretty damned clear that she wasn't, in fact laughing about anything. How would that look? "Oh, say, this guy grabbed me and threatened to smack me in the face! Isn't that hill-are-ee-us?"?

When you examine her other writings on the net, the woman is an unhinged racist who sees evil in ALL white people, including you Jessica.

Even if true, that would negate her experiences in that story... how?

Personally I prefer to identify along culture lines than color of skin. I prefer to see people along cultural lines, ie Italian, Jewish, Egyptian, African ect. so its more individualized. I hate to group people by skin color.

"African" is not a cultural line. "Africa" is not a country, nor is it a single monolithic culture. You lumped the entire African continent as one cultural line as though it's the same as talking about "Italian" cultural lines. Africa is a pretty damned big continent, and it's made up of 53 seperate countries, 900+ million people, and makes up about 20% of the total land-mass of the planet. As it happens, there are some pretty significant cultural differences that exist within the African continent.

She never says she hates white people, just that she'd like them to shut the fuck up and stop trying to take leading positions in her struggle, assuming that they're the smartest and most capable people in the room full of anti-racists because they're white. I am white, and I agree with her. This is exactly like requesting that men identify as pro-feminist rather than feminist and that they try not to dominate the feminist struggle. Anarchists with dreads actually are really annoying.

It's interesting that this woman points out that people of color requesting equal rights are perceived as somehow being anti-white... only to have a bunch of white people go on about how reverse racist she is or some shit. Would you people also argue that rad-fems are anti-man?

Judgesnineteen, yes. This article is saying that to prioritize your career is "horrible advice." This article assumes that women who want babies must find partners immediately, as if adoption was not a possibility. This article is a blatant attempt to scare women into thinking that they can never ever have babies if they try to have a career.

When you examine her other writings on the net, the woman is an unhinged racist who sees evil in ALL white people, including you Jessica.

Even if true, that would negate her experiences in that story... how?

Because I don't trust racists not to lie about these sorts of issues. Do you?

Sorry Sera, people of color can certainly be racists and there is no reason to think that all "white" people are racists. And to think so, well, that's the definition of racism. Take it elsewhere please, I belong to a movement that tries to move human rights forward and believes that all people are created equal, regardless of race, creed, color, religion, gender, sexual identification, bmi, age, or disability.

The Southwest Airlines article was very, very interesting. I experienced something similar when flying (and was much less brave about it).

As for those commenters who believe that Tamala Nopper is racist, even though I'm white, I have to agree with her assessments.

I've never done or said anything racist in my life. However, I do benefit by being white. This something that I barely think about, let alone fight because of its inherent unfairness. I don't walk into offices or classroom wondering if I'll be the only white person there. I have never had racial epithets hurled at me and had to deal with the emotional aftermath of them. I don't have to face the 100 little things a day that smack of the unfairness of racism. (Sexism? Yes, but not racism, nor racism and sexism combined.)

While I'm not racist in my actions, the fact that I don't act and fight a world that privileges me unfairly, along with the fact that I rarely even see where I am privileged, is racist. I do try to work to see it, but I'm not even close.

Does it hurt to be painted with the same brush used against terrible people who overtly discriminate against other races? Sure. But in the end, I still have privileges that others don't. And if calling me a racist exposes this unfairness, I'll take the label.

An article advising women to jump off the career track and get knocked up might want to take into account what will happen to about 50% of those same women 10-20 years down the road (statistically speaking) when they wind up divorced and with no career, or a career that has been sidelined to the point where it's not a viable means of financial support.

I'm 24 and totally screwing up at the find mate/have offspring thing, but I've got to say, a lot of my mom's friends who got married and had kids and abandoned or never started their careers are in serious financial trouble because of divorce.

Wow, thanks Boston Globe. Thank you so much for setting my priorities straight! I was about to waste some of the most fertile years of my life getting an education, but now I know better. So let me go find a man (because we're all hetero here) and get myself knocked up a few times (because adoption later is clearly not an option), and then I can go back to college later when I've got a bunch of babies to take care of. Man, I was so lost without you, Globe.

Take it elsewhere please, I belong to a movement that tries to move human rights forward and believes that all people are created equal, regardless of race, creed, color, religion, gender, sexual identification, bmi, age, or disability.

Bwahahahaha!

What, seriously? You think that you've got skin made of some sort of anti-racism absorbing teflon? Look. We all absorb racism and sexism and myriad other isms just existing in the world we live in. It doesn't make you a bad person so long as you own it. And telling someone who is owning it that they can take their racism against white people elsewhere so you can continue to forge ahead in your lily white nirvana of enlightened unbiased liberalism is preposterous. So is disregarding the experiences of POC just because you don't like what they think about you. Guess what: Plenty of men just call women sexist for calling shit how they see it, and these men deign to dismiss all the experiences of women just because they don't like owning the sexism they inherited by being in the world.

White people are racist. That doesn't mean we're all hatemongers. I'd heartily recommend Inga Muscio's Autobiography of a Blue-eyed Devil. It might help.

The Boston Globe "baby" piece is comedy gold.

The good news is that psychology research shows you will gain more happiness anyway by finding a partner than by having a good job.

I sometimes imagine what my life would have been like if I had stayed with my ex instead of pursuing my career. Then I wonder where they would have buried me after the suicide.

"[Y]ou have your whole life to get a career."

Oh, really? Because there are so many middle-aged women trying to jump back into their careers two decades after leaving them to birth/raise children that are able to pick up right where they left off, right?

She seems to glump all white people into a mold of weird rules and outlooks.

All of those “weird rules and outlooks� are the expectations of a white, heteronormative dominant culture. She’s not attacking white people per se, she’s attacking a societal structure that privileges them while systematically oppressing and excluding Others.

If you don’t know anything about racism (or don’t care), please read the link below, or do some basic research before posting replies to topics dealing with racial issues. Thanks!

http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/required-reading/

It doesn't make you a bad person so long as you own it. And telling someone who is owning it that they can take their racism against white people elsewhere so you can continue to forge ahead in your lily white nirvana of enlightened unbiased liberalism is preposterous. So is disregarding the experiences of POC just because you don't like what they think about you.

Ah, but what we have in Nopper's piece, and in most pieces is like this is explicitly about people having dick fights over this.

"I am oppressed and a victim of [X] and yes, I have a wee wee wee bit of oppressor in me, but YOU are a white racist thug from the very beginning and the ways in which YOU oppress others is myriad and infinite. Hence my penis is bigger than your penis."

I don't believe in original sin and so I avoid original sin arguments. I think that everyone is privileged in some way or another, and I dislike dick fights which are almost always completely pointless and distracting from the real work.

What happens is that people who are owning their shit are suddenly told they have 4Byears of evolution they have to attone for as well, and this frequently comes from people that use this argument as a way to avoid taking any responsibility for the nonsense they need to own.

Hence Nopper who apparently was "assaulted" and says she wants to press charges until it becomes inconvenient for her. She fails to do her duty as a citizen to press charges and have it proven in court and instead goes over the top (yet again) on the people keeping her down.

Basically she is a racist attention seeker trying to draw attention away from her nonsense by calling everyone else privileged racists.

roymacIII,
Right. I know Africa is made up of other countries, thats why I mentioned Egyptian (which is part of Africa). I meant I prefer to see Americans who come from a variety of African backgrounds as African, just as for whites I prefer European.

"Dick fights?" "My penis is bigger than your penis?"

Bullshit. I call troll. Your use of scare quotes around the word assaulted (b/c if you really doubt that she was, you would say allegedly), coupled with calling her a racist attention seeker is a great stinking pile of horse puckey. I especially love your righteous indignation at her pressing charges until it becomes "inconvenient" for her. It's not her job to bear the burdens that come with pressing charges if she doesn't want to. What does that remind me of...oh! I know! Rape apologists who say that if a woman was really raped, she'd carry it all the way to court and fight like hell for a conviction no matter what happens to her along the way.

I gotta say, Flathead, classy.

It's interesting that this woman points out that people of color requesting equal rights are perceived as somehow being anti-white...

wow sera, I never said she hated whites. I think the ass that felt liberties to do what he did, did so because he felt he could because of her race, and her gender. I also feel that she was mistreated based on her race and on the sexist stupidity of the attendants. I just felt she put in a couple of generalizations that werent correct, and seemed to have a bit of belief that ALL whites are exclusively racist.I have seen many races be racist torwards each other, and it doesnt help the problem by seeing whites as all racists exclusively. My relatives werent treated with a silver platter because they are considered white today. Technically my relatives are always identified as something other than my race because of their dark skin, which isnt hard to fathom considering its a country about 40 miles from Africa in the mediteranean. My ancestors used to get harassed by the KKK, and deal with segregation as well. Laws were written in the south making it illegal to have kids with my race, and people of my race have been lynched as well. My grandmother has plenty of stories.

I guess I feel that whoever gets designated with 'whiteness,' by whoever considers themselves with the right to give whiteness doesnt necessarily mean that the race who is now identified as white sees themselves that way.

I'm trying not to be offensive, but the other day I was toying around by thinking of new angles concerning race and how we can perceive ourselves to diminish racism, genocides, ect. I have seen many people of all races be racist against one another, and feel that if we identify with our culture it will create an empathy and collective human self-investment. Perhaps if we respect our own cultures it will extend torwards others as well.I think the rules against racism should be static regardless of the race because thats how we erradicate it.

"White people are racist. That doesn't mean we're all hatemongers. I'd heartily recommend Inga Muscio's Autobiography of a Blue-eyed Devil. It might help."

kissmypineapple,
Fuck. I get it. I wasnt saying I should overlook how whiteness is privileged in society, and NO I fucking dont think that she hates whites. I think its a certain paranoia shes taken on that distorts her self-identity about herself. I think racism is different than sexism since all races have been racist and expressed that racism in a myriad of ways. One gender has always oppressed the other, in all cultures.

J Pierpont Flathead = Troll.

Evidenced by:

1) Examining the victim's background in order to find something, anything to use as a thin excuse to suggest that she is "lying" or trying to "draw attention to herself."

2) Calling the examination of racism and the construct of race "dick fights" and reducing them to an argument of "...my penis is bigger than your penis."

3) Scare-quoting the word assaulted.

"Hence Nopper who apparently was "assaulted" and says she wants to press charges until it becomes inconvenient for her"

"Basically she is a racist attention seeker trying to draw attention away from her nonsense by calling everyone else privileged racists."

Flathead,
Wow, I dont think shes doing that AT ALL. I think the incident actually happened and that uninvited grab on her arm and the verbal threat was indeed assault. I also think it had to do BOTH with her gender and her race. The ass that assaulted her was a misogynist who felt he could do certain behaviors torwards her probable due to docile passive stereotypes about Asians. I wonder if he wouldve done that to a Eastern European woman considering that stereotypes of Eastern Europeans women are along the same lines as Asian women?

judgesnineteen: your bit about culture was more than a bit harsh. It can be entirely constructive to speak of African culture. There is absolutely nothing wrong with EG's statement in that regard. When one speaks of culture, they’re not necessarily speaking of homogeny. For instance, I can have a perfectly reasonable and even academic discussion entirely about the subjects of Asian or North American or European Culture.

You don’t seriously think the culture of Italians and Jews is mesurably less homogenous than African’s, do you?

It's not her job to bear the burdens that come with pressing charges if she doesn't want to.

She's an adult. She's a citizen. She is the first person victim and witness. She lives a privileged life as a grad student and adjunct faculty member.

Letting her "alleged assailant" go just means he will do this again on someone less able to defend herself. He will do this again on a 12 year old girl, or worse.

Who other than her has a duty to stop this one person that she witnessed and that she uniquely can stop?

Don't tell me thinks like men should stop men from raping, or white people should stop white people from racisting, if you're going to let a privileged individual like her NOT press charges because it is inconvenient for her.

GopherII, I think something happened but I am not sure what. I think the best way to stop these sorts of things from happening is in a court of law where everyone has the right to due process. I think the wrong place to stop this from occurring is on the Internet denouncing everyone that you didn't agree with as racists.

Was she assaulted? Beats me. Some creep in an airplane sitting next to her took an offensive wide stance and insisted on it by pressing his leg next to hers. He then behaved like a complete asswipe and a misogynist.

I honestly don't know if that is assault or not. I am not a lawyer. It's different from "alleged assault" where someone says YEinDE hit me and everyone can agree that if YEinDE hit me, that hitting is definitely assault.

I don't know if what this asshole did is actually assault or not. It's definitely impolite. It's definitely asshole behavior. It's almost certainly misogynistic. Is it assault? I don't know.

oops, I was looking at the wrong end of the post for names. Anyway, I made my point.

"I guess I feel that whoever gets designated with 'whiteness,' by whoever considers themselves with the right to give whiteness"

...or to take whiteness away?

"I meant I prefer to see Americans who come from a variety of African backgrounds as African, just as for whites I prefer European."

GopherII, I prefer to see myself as a Texan and an American, thanks. The closest I can come to being "European" is four generations back and I think it would look a bit silly to refer to myself as Czech. How about you let people make their own identifications?

I have no problem agreeing to the idea that whites are inherently racist since it's the equivalent of men automatically benefiting from the patriarchy. Such is the world we live in. However, I do have a problem with the (pardon the pun) black and white nature of the argument. I may benefit from being white, but my socio-economic background, religion and sexuality pretty much eliminate most of that benefit. We live in a world of gray areas and a person may be favored in one column and dunned in the next.

Mina,
I dont know what your last post is about. I think that we should begin to see new angles about ourselves as humans and as races. Technically how can I identify as white if most of my relatives are dark? Yeah, I'M white colored, but it doesnt necessarily say anything about my race. If I identify as white its like I'm not seen as part of my own race and identified with my family. Individual racial identity is what matters and how we connect to it, not what someone else disignated about us.

BTW, I hope I'm not offending anyone but I'm trying to see race from an angle I hadnt considered before using races that have both dark and light-skinned people as a way of perhaps illuminating on the superficialities of identifing by skin color our racial identities. I think it would be freeing to leave those superficial elements about race to be more autonomously identified.

Whoa, I'll be 23 this month- I better drop out of nursing school now and get myself knocked up! Fortunately I have the perfect man but oh crap, I don't think I want kids! What to do???

From the first article:

"Exit polls have showed that fans of Hillary — who once said they would be happy with Obama if Hillary dropped out — were hardening in their opposition to him, while Obama voters were not so harsh about her."

Is that true? I support Clinton, but I would be perfectly okay with Obama. I have some beef with him, but it's certainly not enough to make me "harsh." I would vote for him if he gets the election, certainly. I know several Obama supporters, however, who would rather not vote in the general election than vote for Clinton.

"Mina,
I dont know what your last post is about. I think that we should begin to see new angles about ourselves as humans and as races. "

I was thinking of how race is socially constructed, and how who's ethnic groups are considered "white" can change from era to era and place to place.

FedHu,
I'm merely discussing how I view the races. I'm not telling you how to view yourself. Am I not a part of the human race? Am I not a race? Then I'm sure I can give my personal take on the matter because it helps illuminate my identity, my racial identity, and vice versa. It connects humans to one another, and allows room for more complexity. I have allowed room for others to critisize me, because I am not that schooled on the matter, but I'm sincerely making attempts to analyze my thoughts to discern what I'm attempting to communicate. I think the more people discuss race and how that affects us individually then the more we can accumulate diverse experiences from others to reveal insights about human nature and can use that information to expand on our own self-perspectives and integrate that into a our own personal racial identity.

One gender has always oppressed the other, in all cultures.

Actually, that’s not true. Research has shown that most of the (rare) matriarchal-labeled societies were essentially egalitarian.

shelbywoo,
Personally I think the ideal society was the Amazonians. Shit, THEY had it right.

Mina,
Whats unnerving is how its like some baton thats supposed to denote privilege. Thats why I dont like to identify as 'white' is simply because its too loaded. For example, is a white German who happens to be darker than one of their whiter German peers NOT considered white? Does it "X" out their self-identity? I think the way that white identity was formerly constructed was based on ignorant fear and those of the Eastern or Western European races that have been externally designated 'white' should reclaim their real racial identities. We should establish a more grounded self-identity, or else our racial image will simply be exploited as a way of setting up foundations to launch racism based on something as vapid as skin tone. It becomes some sick racial skin tone hierarchy that establishes the lightest at the top and denotes lesser status the darker you go. I dont identify with this and know many other so-called white people who dont either. By reclaiming our racial identities we can diffuse this sociological defect.

Who other than her has a duty to stop this one person that she witnessed and that she uniquely can stop?

Don't tell me thinks like men should stop men from raping

He has the duty to stop himself. And, yeah, I will tell you that rapists are the ones who bear the burden to keep themselves from raping. Why are you here, again?

Yes, of course rapists have the duty to stop themselves (as do all criminals.) And if all men and women criminals would just do that, we would have no need for a criminal legal industry.

So kissmypineapple, who NEXT has the duty to stop this guy before he assaults an underaged girl that cannot protect herself as Nopper could protect herself?

You really think the only person with a duty here is the asshole in the seat next to her? Why are YOU here then?

Me? I'm here for the intelligent discussion about modern culture vis a vis gender issues. And to make the world a better place for my daughters.

Whats unnerving is how its like some baton thats supposed to denote privilege.

It is unnerving.

For example, is a white German who happens to be darker than one of their whiter German peers NOT considered white? Does it "X" out their self-identity?

No and no.

I think the way that white identity was formerly constructed was based on ignorant fear and those of the Eastern or Western European races that have been externally designated 'white' should reclaim their real racial identities.

'White' is a racial identity. It's the identity of not having a race. Race and ethnicity are not the same.

We should establish a more grounded self-identity, or else our racial image will simply be exploited as a way of setting up foundations to launch racism based on something as vapid as skin tone. It becomes some sick racial skin tone hierarchy that establishes the lightest at the top and denotes lesser status the darker you go.

That's what it's for. That's how it's used.

JPF, once she reported it to the stewards they should have 1) taken her seriously and 2) processed everything with as little inconvenience to her as possible. What, she needs to rearrange HER life because he was an asshat? You don't know where she was going or what her schedule was. She obviously felt strongly about the situation but still needed to get where she was planning to go. I don't see how it is your (or our) place to question her judgement on the matter. By claiming that she "shirked duty" by not getting off the plane, you are placing the onus of the asshat's actions on her without knowing her situation and without trusting SHE knows what the hell she is doing. How about we stop questioning HER actions and start asking questions like why did Mr. asshat feel like he had the right to invade her space/manhandle/address her in such a manner? I can tell you for SURE, that had she been a he, this guy's leg wouldn't have come CLOSE to hers and if she had been white, when she complained the stewards would most likely have at least pretended to take her seriously.

If you want to make the world a better place for your daughters, go read that required reading list posted at the Angry Black Woman that manabanana posted and just LISTEN for a bit instead of interjecting YOUR point of view. You learn when you listen, not when you talk. Most people hang out here for months before even posting once.

And I won't speak for kissmypineapple, but I DO think the only people responsible in this mess were 1) the asshat and 2) the stewards. And hell, it would have been nice if ANYONE else on that plane would have supported her.

I was going to post about the MoDo article but I got carried away with my response just now. Check out my blog if you are remotely interested. http://hamsterdoom.blogspot.com

Also, did the guy on the plane think his threats were cute? I could swear that's a direct quote from 'Anchorman.'

Don't know if anyone else was watching but on the Colbert Report, they just had a report on MyFreeImplants.com. Kind of off topic, but it's definitely a bit creepy. The young women pose to get guys to donate money towards their boob jobs.

What, she needs to rearrange HER life because he was an asshat?

Yes, that's the requirement of being an ADULT CITIZEN.

What she did was let this creep go loose to demean and assault other people. (Probably women, men smaller than he, gays, ...) And then she claimed that everyone was against her.

I frankly have no idea what the flight attendants did, but given her hyperbolic rants about the evils of white people and their privilege, and considering her own privilege as grad student and faculty member, and having flown SWA many times and seen how they handle other people's issues, I have no reason to believe her over SWA's flight attendants.

Regarding the reading list, sorry, but I have read plenty, participated plenty, and am reasonably confident that I have owned up and worked on my own issues. I acknowledge these issues exist. I work on them, but that is not grounds for anyone to force me out from a conversation of gender/race/age/... issues. Or to claim that my insights or knowledge is less.

If you were forced to read everything that anyone that disagrees with you mandates, JUST so that you were allowed at the table, you would be shouting bloody murder about disenfranchisement from the process. And rightfully so.

As I said above, I don't believe in original sin. I think the notion that all white people are racist is a very "catholic" belief that stems from original sin. That, and a racist need for a penis fight.

Or... Tell me at what age white babies become racists. And tell me why again it is that non-white babies can't become racists or don't have privileges. Or why the kids of very rich minorities have less privilege than the kids of very poor white families.

Back to your original question. Does she have to rearrange her life when she is the victim? And yeah, that's the social compact. All of the law stuff, all of that police work, all of that social stuff, all of that demands that adult citizens need to report, and need to press charges, and need to testify.

It sucks for her, just as it sucks for everyone else regardless of what crime was committed against them.

EG – brilliantly put.

What, she needs to rearrange HER life because he was an asshat?

Yes, that's the requirement of being an ADULT CITIZEN.

Really? I don't actually think it is. Since when?

What she did was let this creep go loose to demean and assault other people. (Probably women, men smaller than he, gays, ...) And then she claimed that everyone was against her.

Actually, what she did was properly report it to the authorities on the plane, who then mocked her and when she got upset about that, they began to treat her like she was the one creating a problem, at which point she decided to back off and let it go.

I frankly have no idea what the flight attendants did, but given her hyperbolic rants about the evils of white people and their privilege, and considering her own privilege as grad student and faculty member, and having flown SWA many times and seen how they handle other people's issues, I have no reason to believe her over SWA's flight attendants.

Oh, I see. Did you go out and interview the flight attendant, then? No? So, how do you know what the flight attendant thinks happened?

I work on them, but that is not grounds for anyone to force me out from a conversation of gender/race/age/... issues. Or to claim that my insights or knowledge is less.

And yet you feel completely comfortable in accusing this woman of being a liar and a fraud, and choose to disbelieve her claims.

Interesting how that works.

Back to your original question. Does she have to rearrange her life when she is the victim? And yeah, that's the social compact. All of the law stuff, all of that police work, all of that social stuff, all of that demands that adult citizens need to report, and need to press charges, and need to testify.

It also demands that the people responsible for dealing with those issues not treat victims of crimes like they are, themselves, the perpetrators. It requires that people in positions of authority treat the victims of crimes with respect and dignity, and that they not laugh at the victim.

[roy] your bit about culture was more than a bit harsh. It can be entirely constructive to speak of African culture.

It can be, sure. But, it can also be insulting, in that "African" is waaay too often used in the same sense as "French" or "German". Africa is way too often treated like it's a country.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with [gopher]'s statement in that regard. When one speaks of culture, they’re not necessarily speaking of homogeny.

In the context of saying something like "I prefer to differentiate along culture lines, not color lines", one must almost necessarily be talking about homogeny in some way. If you weren't... how would you differentiate along that line?

For instance, I can have a perfectly reasonable and even academic discussion entirely about the subjects of Asian or North American or European Culture.

You could certainly try, I suppose. I think when you start talking about the culture of an entire continent, you're painting with a pretty broad brush.

You don’t seriously think the culture of Italians and Jews is mesurably less homogenous than African’s, do you?

With regards to Italians, at least, yeah. In fact, I do. I'm sorry, but there's no way that you're going to convince me that a country the size of Italy has the same level of cultural diversity that a continent comprised of over 50 seperate countries does. That's not a slight against Italy, it's simply an observation that you're probably going to find a greater ammount of cultural diversity amongst 900 million people spread out over 53 seperate countries than you are amongst less than 60 million people in one.

roymacIII,
Italy is a mediterranean country. Theyve had PLENTY of cultural diversity. their culture was based on trade and shipping. Accounts of early Rome were very vivid with races from far and wide and ideas spreading throughout the land. How stupid can you be to not even know that? RoymacIII, I think you should take a break, your pompous attitude is turning into racism. I dont mind discussing topics with others who are more rationally based, but youre fucking pissing me off with your anti-Italian rhetoric. Youre basically claiming that the smaller the population the less diverse credence they have. I guess that would automatically make all the races less diverse than Africans because they have the most babies? Youre racist.

I guess according to RoymacIII, Jews, Arabs, and Asians arent as culturally diverse because they dont have as many babies as whoever is now currently holding the record for most babies. Apparently if they had a baby crisis their culture would lose diversity.

Hm, I've been physically threatened a few times by men for sticking up for myself (including a Hells Angel biker, unbeknownst to me at the time) and it usually ended by people pulling me away. Each time I went to a Person Who Should Have Been Able to Help, and they all said there was nothing they could do.

These days when I'm on a plane and the guy next to me lets his testicles spread their wings (which is pretty much every time), I just press or bounce back, and they get the message. Coughing is also fun.

I just hope Ms. Nopper doesn't plan to ride the NYC subway any time soon!

Are you fucking kidding me Gopher?? You're actually talking about Africans/Italians/Jews/Arabs/Asians like they're comparable?

Africa is a fucking huge continent. Asia is a fucking huge section of a continent. Not only are there huge culture differences but a lot of the countries contained within HATE each other.

How can you compare that to Jews and Arabs? And fucking Italians? IT IS NOT COMPARABLE. The US/Canada/entire UK/Australia and NZ are all more similar than a whole bunch of African countries.

I cannot believe this discussion.

Come to think of it, one of the reactions after reporting one of the above incidents definitely involved a smile.

But yeah, if you do ride the subway you're going to get all kinds of men pressing their knees against yours. I know somewhere there's a website that generates fake MTA posters...some day when I have all the time and money in the world I'll create "YOUR PENIS IS NOT THAT BIG, PLEASE CLOSE YOUR LEGS" and post a bunch throughout the stations.

I just saw this article:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/03/06/cleaning_and_child_care_no_longer_womens_work/

"Cleaning and child care no longer women's work

"...The report summarizes several recent studies on family dynamics. One found that men's contribution to housework had doubled over the past four decades; another found they tripled the time spent on child care over that span.

"'More couples are sharing family tasks than ever before, and the movement toward sharing has been especially significant for full-time dual-earner couples,' the report says. 'Men and women may not be fully equal yet, but the rules of the game have been profoundly and irreversibly changed.'..."

Jane Minty: That needs to be on a T-Shirt. Maybe email David and Goliath. lol

fenriswolf,
I wrote that I prefer to see Black Americans as Africans (because they come rom all over Africa) and prefer to call Western Europeans by their culture (or wherever theyre from) rather than just white, or Arab. I like to be more specific. For example, if youre from a variety of cultures within the European countries I prefer European. I never compared all the races as if they were all the same. Are you fucking retarded? I KNOW they are all different. I'm pissed about RoymacIII claim that Italians arent as diverse as Africans. Where does someone get off for saying that?By diversity RoymacIII means cultural color and innovation. To suggest Italians are less cultural than Africans is offensive. Read my other posts before jumping in, swashbuckler.

Forget all that race nice shit. Maybe the passengar who wrote the piece really was being irrational? Maybe she did sort of bring it on herself? There are probably pieces of it that she didnt include because she wanted to position her story as a sort of propaganda piece to make some racist statement about white people to conform to her politics.

I wrote that I prefer to see Black Americans as Africans (because they come rom all over Africa) and prefer to call Western Europeans by their culture (or wherever theyre from) rather than just white, or Arab. I like to be more specific.

So you're placing more importance on white cultural distinctions than Black ones.

Are you fucking retarded?

Classy.

I'm pissed about RoymacIII claim that Italians arent as diverse as Africans. Where does someone get off for saying that?By diversity RoymacIII means cultural color and innovation. To suggest Italians are less cultural than Africans is offensive.

There are more nations and cultures on the continent of Africa than the nation of Italy. What you seem to find offensive is the suggestion that Black people are equally or more heterogeneous than white people. Which says a lot.

roymacIII,
Italy is a mediterranean country. Theyve had PLENTY of cultural diversity.

Did I claim otherwise?
Why, no. No I did not.

their culture was based on trade and shipping. Accounts of early Rome were very vivid with races from far and wide and ideas spreading throughout the land. How stupid can you be to not even know that?

Well, since I did, I'm going to go with "not very"?

I dont mind discussing topics with others who are more rationally based, but youre fucking pissing me off with your anti-Italian rhetoric.

Maybe you should take a step back, then, because I've said nothing anti-Italian.

Youre basically claiming that the smaller the population the less diverse credence they have.

Where did I say that Italy's culture wasn't valid or real? I didn't. What I did say was that you were likely to find less variety in a country than you are on an entire continent. It has nothing to do with Italians being "less cultural".

I guess that would automatically make all the races less diverse than Africans because they have the most babies? Youre racist.

*eye roll*
Yeah. That's what I was saying.

I guess according to RoymacIII, Jews, Arabs, and Asians arent as culturally diverse because they dont have as many babies as whoever is now currently holding the record for most babies.

Now who is being stupid? You're the one that brought up babies, not me. My point was, and remains, that "African" encompasses an entire fucking continent of people- the second largest continent on the planet, in fact- and that the suggestion that a country the size of Arizona has the same level of cultural diversity is, well, kind of silly. It's not about the value of the culture- it's about respecting the fact that Africa is a pretty fucking big place, and that it's not one monolithic cultural group anymore than Europe is. You recognize that when you place importance on distinguishing between "Italian" and, say, "Spanish", but you ignore it when you lump all African cultures together as "African". Particularly since you lump, not only all African cultures together that way, but all black people in general. It's about recognizing that there are a lot of different cultural groups on the African continent, and that they're routinely erased by people talking about "Africa" as though it's a country, instead of a continent made up of over 50 seperate nations. When you use the term "African" in the same way that you use "Italian" you're completely erasing a ton of cultural distinctions, and making it clear that you value the cultural distinctions of typically white cultures over those of black cultures.

I wrote that I prefer to see Black Americans as Africans (because they come rom all over Africa) and prefer to call Western Europeans by their culture (or wherever theyre from) rather than just white, or Arab.

Do you call white Americans "European"? Would you call me "Italian" since my grandfather came from Italy? Or "Scottish" since my last name is? Or would you call me "American" since I was born and live here? Or would you call me European?

It's interesting to me, because what it really sounds like you're doing is still seeing people as colors, but using other words to signify. What would you consider a black man living in France? European? French? African?

I like to be more specific. For example, if youre from a variety of cultures within the European countries I prefer European.

That would, in fact, be less specific. More specific would be to call a person who is from Italy "Italian." Or, even more specific, to call them Friulian, or Sicilian, or whatnot.

I never compared all the races as if they were all the same. Are you fucking retarded?

1. Can you please not ues "retarded" as an insult? It's offensive and hurtful to the many people who are, or who are close to people with mental disabilities. It's hateful word.
2. But, that's exactly what you did, and continue to do. You talk about dividing along cultural lines, but you lump all blacks as being "African". How is that not ignoring cultural differences?

I KNOW they are all different. I'm pissed about RoymacIII claim that Italians arent as diverse as Africans. Where does someone get off for saying that?By diversity RoymacIII means cultural color and innovation.

No, I don't. I mean cultural groups, which are admittedly a somewhat fuzzy concept, but which we regularly discuss anyway. I mean it in the same way that we recognize that different tribes of Native Americans aren't one monolithic "Native American" culture, and the way we recognize that there are many different cultural groups living in Europe. We don't usually erase the cultural distinctions of white folks coming out of Europe- we don't usually just call them European- most of the time, people are very careful to at least make the national distinction- "Oh, he's French" "Oh, she's German".

To suggest Italians are less cultural than Africans is offensive. Read my other posts before jumping in, swashbuckler.

To continue to talk about "Italian"- a national distinction- as though it's the same as "African"- a continental distinction- is also offensive, imo.

Oh, for God's sake, Gopher. Are you seriously suggesting that a small country has a level of cultural diversity comparable to a huge continent is absurd. Zimbabwe does not have as great cultural diversity as the continent of Asia. Italy does not have as great cultural diversity as the continent of Africa. It sounds like you know next to nothing about the very cultures and civilizations of Africa. Italy does not have as great cultural diversity as Europe as a whole, or as Asia. Because Italy, no matter how diverse is a small country, and continents contain countries. Alexandria in ancient times was much like Rome, a major metropolitan center and home to a number of migrants from various cultures. Alexandria was very comparable to Rome--the Romans thought so. And guess what? Africa contains Alexandria, so Africa has all that plus 50 countries more of cultural diversity.

By diversity RoymacIII means cultural color and innovation. To suggest Italians are less cultural than Africans is offensive.

I have no idea what you could possibly mean here. What the hell is "cultural color and innovation"? Roy never said that Italians were less "cultural" than the many peoples of Africa--I'm not sure what that means. He said that they were more culturally homogenous than the many peoples of Africa.

Slagging on Roy, regularly one of the calmest, most level-headed posters here is not on.

What the hell do babies have to do with anything?

Just want to remind folks (ahem, Gopher) that personal insults and slurs aren't tolerated on the site. Consider this a first warning. Thanks.

See, this is why I love it when white people get together and talk about race. I had no idea that racial identity was such a flexible menu from which you could choose to suit your ethnic preferences!

Since my predecessors are Russian and Russia used to have emperors I think I'm going to designate my new ethnic identity as "king of everything." I think this is more specific, in line with my family history, and productive than identifying as white. I would have told that to the cops who were searching bags at my subway stop yesterday but they must not have realized I was NOT white. Also I went in to buy headphones from an electronics store this morning and the owner did NOT follow me around the store. I explained to him that I was in fact NOT white and thus he should probably consider profiling me.

Also I'm working on a time machine so I can go back and change the entire legal history of race in the united states. I think that'll make it much easier to argue that white people who are ethnic minorities are pretty much EXACTLY LIKE black people (and probably also like other people of color too!).

oh wait...

Sorry for responding and instigating (calling someone stupid back), Jessica.

I just wanted to comment on the UN announcement. As someone who really really wants to work at the UN in the future, it really discourages me to see so many celebrities being named Special Ambassador and things like that. It is already much more difficult for Americans to get jobs at the UN than for members of other nationalities, so having celebrities take up those positions makes me worry that there will be even fewer available for me to compete for when I'm grown. I guess its good that they're bringing their star power and media draw to the causes, but it seems like they're taking that position from someone who'd be a bunch more qualified. It seems like one more place where celebrities have it a thousand times better than regular people (like me).

Thats why I dont like to identify as 'white' is simply because its too loaded.

Whether you call yourself "white" or not, if you look white, you're going to be treated like you're white in this society. Calling yourself something other than "white" does not take away your white privilege. You have it based not on what you call yourself, but by how you look. That's how it works.

See, this is why I love it when white people get together and talk about race...they must not have realized I was NOT white...Also I'm working on a time machine so I can go back and change the entire legal history of race in the united states.
Thanks for speaking to the issues anyway, talknormal. I was hoping someone would bring the issues you did.

As a White woman, I have had the luxury of trying to be unaware of race. In the past, this seemed like a reasonable strategy for living an egalitarian life. I was eventually made aware of how infuriating and invalidating this is for non-White people. It hurt, initially, to confront my privilege, but it was important. I think this is the flip side of what you had to say. I can ignore my race, if I choose to, and that is part of my privilege.

I realize that it is not your job to educate people and I truly appreciate your willingness to speak your truth. I think there are a few people here who are burnt out on trying.

Dear Gopher II,

“Young whites selectively resurrect their ethnicity through ‘immigrant tales’ mainly when they feel white privilege is being contested, even though their perceived ethnic history does not necessarily concern a specific nation but rather a generalized idea of European origin. This common, yet fuzzy, connection to the ‘old country’ provides the historical backdrop and cultural space for the construction of white identity, or ‘a yearning for a usable past.’ As the importance of ethnicity wanes in the lives of young whites, the immigrant experience of older (or dead) kin becomes a mythologized narrative providing a historical common denominator of passage, victimization, and assimilation. As white students often tell it, blacks can point to the middle passage and slavery; Japanese and Chinese can speak of internment and forced labor, respectively; and whites have the immigrant experience. In a sense, past group victimization or hardship is part of the American experience; young whites, when confronted by real or perceived charges of racism, can point to the mistreatment of their older relatives when they were newly arrived immigrants in the United States.�

From: Richard Delgado’s Critical White Studies.
http://www.amazon.com/Critical-White-Studies-Richard-Delgado/dp/1566395321

In other words, your rhetoric is tired.

I don't get it.

I read the SWA piece and I'm shocked. SWA is clearly at fault. The seatmate needed to be chastised/expelled from the flight/arrested, and I have sympathy for the writer in that situation.

However, I agree that the posted piece is also problematic. I would have... difficulty relating to the author.

But why can't I maintain those views at the same time? Certainly SWA's actions can be judged independently of the piece. I don't think that someone who writes a piece I disagree with, thereby loses all right to complain about race issues. That makes no sense at all!

Editorial. Airplane. Not The Same Thing.

I agree with Sailorman. The Southwest employees clearly did not handle the situation correctly. The man who grabbed and threatened her should have been expelled from the plane. With all the stuff we hear about Southwest, the girls being thrown off for fighting and yelling at passengers, asking peopel to leave for "improper dress," it would seem that they have a pretty strict policy with their airplanes, and a man physically grabbing and threatening someone should face immediate expulsion and possibly not be allowed to fly on their airline again.

However, agreeing that what happened to the woman in question was wrong doesn't mean I agree with all of this woman's personal beliefs. And I think it is definitely possible for you to be a racist and not be white. I don't understand how white people are the only one's whose racism is important. Isn't all racism important? The racism of white people and white structure might be most important, because it clearly needs to be removed, but racism exists in all cultures. In Costa Rica, most people are extremely racist against Nicaraguans. Homogenous Asian countries like Japan are pretty much racist against all foreigners. Why can't this woman be racist against whites and be called out for it? I mean, she says stuff like this, "for whiteness and white identity--even the white antiracist kind (because there really is no redeemable or reformed white identity)--to be destroyed." It's maybe a little offensive to say that the identity of all white people as white should be destroyed. Wouldn't it make more sense to say that all identity based on racial lines should be destroyed, not just the oppressive white identity?

There is also an undercurrent of violence/hatred in some of what she is writing. "dreadlocks (which, in my opinion, should be cut off from every white person's head"

I think dreads on white people look stupid, but come on?

Well, I can certainly identify with Ms. Nopper's actions. I am put off by comments that blame her for not following through or for pressing charges. The point of the incident was to show that ingrained atttiudes in society marginalize people of color, especially women of color, in two ways:

1) There are some folks (though not all) with the dominant attitude or sense of empowerment who feel they can take advantage of people of color because they are relatively powerless, and wouldn't do so if Ms. Nopper wasn't a female minority

2) Grievances or complaints of women of color aren't taken as seriously by people in positions of power. The powers that be may be intimidating. This may account for an explanation of why women of color might not follow up as aggressively with their grievances. And unfortunately, SWA seemed to prove her point here.

In any case, the responsibility for this sordid state of affairs rests solely with the aggressive male assailant and the poor response from the airlines. Period.

By the way, it's NOT racist for people of color to call attention to racism. The dynamics of racism and prejudice are rarely two ways.

Racism = prejudice + power.

This is what's called institutionalized racism. Let's put it in another way....a black person who has resentment and/or hostility towards white people will rarely have much impact on a white person's life. Sure, a white person is not going to like that on a personal level - but ask yourself----is that "hate whitey" black person going to affect what sort of jobs you will be able to get? Where you can live? How you will be treated in a store, airline?

Now take a black person living in a society that is dominated economically, socially, and culturally by white institutions. I think any black person would tell you that the impact is by far greater on them - both historically from the big picture side, and from a personal level.

@FemiDancer, re, "Why can't this woman be racist against whites and be called out for it?"

I'm pretty sure that the aforeposted link to Angry Black Woman covered this. I think the adage that is invoked to rebut this sentiment goes like:

racism = prejudice + POWER

Because Asian Americans (for instance) do not exist in a society in which they systemically accrue power because of their racial identity, it's actually not possible for Nopper to be racist against white people (but if you really want to argue it, sure, ,she can be PREJUDICED against white people-- but that's NO small distinction, imho).

Also I'm pretty sure Nopper is talking about dismantling white identity as in, the system of white supremacy (she's talking about whiteness as a construction that exists expressly for the purposes of domination).

I DON'T think that means abolishing all identities based on racial lines. I think a lot of people might argue that identity based on racial lines can be very useful/empowering (I can has Black Power movment? kthx).

Anyway I think really what she's getting at is an understanding of whiteness as/and power, which seems to be the point that's missed by the "she's racist against whites" line of thinking.

BTW i think to be fair, part of why Nopper's piece may have incited such hostile responses is that her work (at least from my reading) draws very heavily upon a whole body of critical intellectual, activist, and legal thought on race (critical race theory in particular comes to mind--Delgado FTW!--but who knows, maybe Nopper would disagree with me!).

I'm not pointing this out to be like "you plebeians SIMPLY CAN'T UNDERSTAND her writing" what i mean is that a lot of the language and meanings that Nopper employs have like, a huge body political thought behind them and I guess it could be kind of jarring for folks who aren't familiar with some of the concepts (eg, when she talks about whiteness she's getting at a pretty specific and developed philosophy of race and way of understanding whiteness/racial hierarchy/antiblackness that would not be easily explained in a single blog post).

But you know, feel free to call me a presumptive/pretentious jerk. The person who posted the Delgado quote just made me think "oh right there's an entire intellectual movement dedicated to explaining these kinds of ideas"

juan,
Italys a nation?I always thought it was part of the European Union, and part of Western Europe.

"You recognize that when you place importance on distinguishing between "Italian" and, say, "Spanish", but you ignore it when you lump all African cultures together as "African"."

I know to distinguish between the different races of africa. I meant as far as black Americans because their race is mixed from all parts of africa. Same with caucasian people which is why I consider them european. If you read my posts it was because I was looking for an alternative to identifying people by skin tone. I never said or suggested that I didnt see it that way. As a matter of fact I clarified myself countless times in above posts stressing that very thing. READ my posts.

As far as my frustrated sentiment summed up thus:
"Forget all that race nice shit. " is fine(!) I wont write about race. For gawds sakes. I wont even discuss it. Whatever. I think RoymacIII completely distorted my take and screwed up what I was getting across. None of this happened until his crap miscommunication. Hell, I was wrong to even think I knew enough to want to come to the womans aide. If this ever happens on a flight I'll do like the rest of the passengars did and keep quite. I wont even come to the defense of the woman. Apparently I know NOTHING about race.

I think perhaps the "academic discussion" definition of racism could be construed as prejudice plus power, but racism in general, as I have always heard the term used in conversation is just beliefs about a person, often negative, but not necassarily so, based solely on their race. Under that definition (which is the one I've been brought up with) I think this woman is a racist, because she wants to judge all white people solely on the basis of them being white and having white privilege. She said that there is no possible reformed white identity. I.e., no possible white identity, even if the white power structure was removed.

Well, I can certainly identify with Ms. Nopper's actions. I am put off by comments that blame her for not following through or for pressing charges. The point of the incident was to show that ingrained atttiudes in society marginalize people of color, especially women of color, in two ways:

1) There are some folks (though not all) with the dominant attitude or sense of empowerment who feel they can take advantage of people of color because they are relatively powerless, and wouldn't do so if Ms. Nopper wasn't a female minority

2) Grievances or complaints of women of color aren't taken as seriously by people in positions of power. The powers that be may be intimidating. This may account for an explanation of why women of color might not follow up as aggressively with their grievances. And unfortunately, SWA seemed to prove her point here.

In any case, the responsibility for this sordid state of affairs rests solely with the aggressive male assailant and the poor response from the airlines. Period.

By the way, it's NOT racist for people of color to call attention to racism. The dynamics of racism and prejudice are rarely two ways.

Racism = prejudice + power.

This is what's called institutionalized racism. Let's put it in another way....a black person who has resentment and/or hostility towards white people will rarely have much impact on a white person's life. Sure, a white person is not going to like that on a personal level - but ask yourself----is that "hate whitey" black person going to affect what sort of jobs you will be able to get? Where you can live? How you will be treated in a store, airline?

Now take a black person living in a society that is dominated economically, socially, and culturally by white institutions. I think any black person would tell you that the impact is by far greater on them - both historically from the big picture side, and from a personal level.

juan,
Italys a nation?I always thought it was part of the European Union, and part of Western Europe.

"You recognize that when you place importance on distinguishing between "Italian" and, say, "Spanish", but you ignore it when you lump all African cultures together as "African"."

I know to distinguish between the different races of africa. I meant as far as black Americans because their race is mixed from all parts of africa. Same with caucasian people which is why I consider them european. If you read my posts it was because I was looking for an alternative to identifying people by skin tone. I never said or suggested that I didnt see it that way. As a matter of fact I clarified myself countless times in above posts stressing that very thing. READ my posts.

As far as my frustrated sentiment summed up thus:
"Forget all that race nice shit. " is fine(!) I wont write about race. For gawds sakes. I wont even discuss it. Whatever. I think RoymacIII completely distorted my take and screwed up what I was getting across. None of this happened until his crap miscommunication. Hell, I was wrong to even think I knew enough to want to come to the womans aide. If this ever happens on a flight I'll do like the rest of the passengars did and keep quite. I wont even come to the defense of the woman. Apparently I know NOTHING about race.

"want to have a baby-nows the time"

Its fucked that men never have articles written about this. Why arent mens magazines having articles like this one?

GopherII, Roymac is not alone in his interpretation.
What you said is absurd.

juan,
Italys a nation?I always thought it was part of the European Union, and part of Western Europe.

"You recognize that when you place importance on distinguishing between "Italian" and, say, "Spanish", but you ignore it when you lump all African cultures together as "African"."

I know to distinguish between the different races of africa. I meant as far as black Americans because their race is mixed from all parts of africa. Same with caucasian people which is why I consider them european. If you read my posts it was because I was looking for an alternative to identifying people by skin tone. I never said or suggested that I didnt see it that way. As a matter of fact I clarified myself countless times in above posts stressing that very thing. READ my posts.

As far as my frustrated sentiment summed up thus:
"Forget all that race nice shit. " is fine(!) I wont write about race. For gawds sakes. I wont even discuss it. Whatever. I think RoymacIII completely distorted my take and screwed up what I was getting across. None of this happened until his crap miscommunication. Hell, I was wrong to even think I knew enough to want to come to the womans aide. If this ever happens on a flight I'll do like the rest of the passengars did and keep quite. I wont even come to the defense of the woman. Apparently I know NOTHING about race.

"Whether you call yourself "white" or not, if you look white, you're going to be treated like you're white in this society"

So Jews are treated white? I've seen white Asians and Middle Eastern people and my relatives are browne skinned-but were European. I've never heard of any racist incidences because they werent pasty white.

For whiteness and white identity--even the white antiracist kind (because there really is no redeemable or reformed white identity)--to be destroyed." It's maybe a little offensive to say that the identity of all white people as white should be destroyed.

I agree with Nopper here. "Whiteness" as an identity exists only in a hierarchical relationship to blackness. It doesn't represent some kind of shared culture or heritage. The only thing white people have in common is white privilege. Getting rid of whiteness isn't the same as getting rid of someone's ethnic identity.

There is also an undercurrent of violence/hatred in some of what she is writing. "dreadlocks (which, in my opinion, should be cut off from every white person's head"

I don't think that's violence or hatred. I think that's a pretty straight-faced and dry way of playing an over-the-top representation of distaste for laughs. My family and I talk like that all the time: coming home after a particularly annoying train ride, for instance, "I've come to the conclusion that businessmen who use their cell phones in public places should be shot through the head"; or "people who wear flip-flops outside during the winter need to be smacked upside the head." It's an exaggerated fantasy representing one's extreme dislike for other people's choices.

I don't know where Nopper lives, but I've always understood it to be a regional thing, as nobody from NYC has ever even blinked at me using such formulations, but people from other places often seem taken aback.

Nopper is a faculty member at a good University. She has plenty of institutionalized power.

If I bought into your formulation that racism isn't racism if you don't have power (which I don't), then there is plenty of reason to believe that faculty member has greater power than the old white asshole sitting next to her.

Hence, by your own terms, she is a racist.

I don't buy into racism requires power. That is way too relative and is usually used to let minority racists off the hook. It's the same stupid formulation used by the Feminism 101 FAQ to claim that women cannot be sexists.

One for all and all for one. We all are "temporarily abled" and then we are all permanently disabled. We all have various privileges and we all have various disadvantages.

A grad student/faculty member has shit loads more power and respect than most people in society, she has a very safe, non-dangerous job, and apparently she can afford to fly which many of us cannot. She has a great future outlook.

She is a racist.

And anyone that demands society change its ways to suit your needs and your claimed disadvantages had better be fulfilling your civic duty, your civic responsibility. And that means protecting children and those that cannot protect themselves.

Civic duty/civic responsibility goes back to Greek times if not before. And in the United States it is considered to include:
a) informed voting
b) jury duty
c) and yes, taking action to report serious crimes that you were the victim of, and helping to prevent others from being victimized by that person.

If Nopper's essay had been written by a male who saw Nopper being assaulted and then wrote that he decided not to say anything, what would you be saying about that male?

Nopper is a racist, she refuses to expend any energy to protect others less fortunate than her from being victimized (sexually), and she violates our social compact.

Completely unethical behavior on her part.

And then she claims she is the victim.

"Whether you call yourself "white" or not, if you look white, you're going to be treated like you're white in this society. "

Not all races go along a predictable skin tone spectrum. There are white asians, middle eastern, and mediteranean peoples. There are also brown Mediteranean, middle eastern and asian people all within the same race. Are you saying that the ones who have white skin are treated all the same way? If my mom sits next to me at a resteraunt (shes brown) and we eat, I will be treated better than her simply because of skin color?

Italys a nation?I always thought it was part of the European Union, and part of Western Europe.

I don't understand your point. Italy is a nation. The European Union is comprised of nations. Western Europe is a region of the continent Europe. What's the conflict?

GopherII: I took issue with the conflating of "Africa" with a country- something that happens regularly, all over the place. If that's not what you were doing, that's great. I pointed out my concern, and you explained what you meant.

Okay, fine. You'll notice I didn't say anything to you about that. It was only after someone else said I was being harsh- which I don't think that I was- and that I pointed out that there's likely less cultural diversity within a country than within a continent that things got heated.

That's when you called me a stupid, pompous, anti-Italian racist, as I recall.

I'm very sorry that I'm pissing you off, but I don't think that I've disorted or miscommunicated anything here. Still, I'll restrict my thoughts on this conversation to my own blog, so-as not to further distract from the conversation here.

Gopher,

if you and she sit at different tables, odds are that your experience will be more pleasant than hers. This the difference between race and ethnicity. Race cares what you look like and whether you can act like a mainstream white person. Race doesn't care what region you come from or what your home culture is. If you look white and you can act white, you get white privilege.

In Costa Rica, most people are extremely racist against Nicaraguans. Homogenous Asian countries like Japan are pretty much racist against all foreigners.

In Central and South Americas racism pretty much follows the Western model. Japan has many different ethnic groups that get shit on by the dominant one.

She said that there is no possible reformed white identity. I.e., no possible white identity, even if the white power structure was removed.

This isn't racist. She's saying tearing down 'whiteness' is fundamental to ending racism. Just like Robert Jensen says curing sexism requires tearing down the construction of masculinity. Both are treated by society as being everything awesome defined in opposition to everything else.

Italy's a nation?I always thought it was part of the European Union, and part of Western Europe.

I figured a scholar of Western History such as yourself would know what a nation was.

I know to distinguish between the different races of africa.I meant as far as black Americans because their race is mixed from all parts of africa.

Ethnicities. Black is sufficient in most cases.

On racism isn't racism if you don't have power...

So when a person walks by another person and one person says to the other "fuck you you -- racial epithet" are you telling me that depending on the relative power, the relative age, the relative ethnicities, the relative genders, that there was either racism or no racism involved? That sometimes the person was rude and at other times the person was racist?

Because this all just confuses my caveperson head.

If an asian lesbian 23 year old tells a hispanic gay year 15 year old that they are a racial epithet, I assume that's racist because asians have more power than hispanics, 23 year olds have more power than 15 year olds, and lesbians have more power (cultural acceptance) than gays.

But if the kid turns around and yells something equivalently horrible at the 23 year old, that's not racism, because the kid had no power.

And if they are all equivalent except for race, say they are both 19 year old heterosexual men, except one is white and the other black, it's not racism for the black guy to yell a racial epithet at the white guy, but it is racism for the white guy to yell a racial epithet at the black guy.

Unless of course they aren't in Ohio. If they are in the Sudan then it's reversed and it's racist for the black guy to yell a racial epithet at the white guy but not the reverse.

Racism is racism. Sexism is sexism.

Try not to make apologies for racists or sexists.

Juan Stoppable: I thought curing sexism required tearing down the standards of masculinity AND feminity. Why would curing racism not require tearing down all racial identity, instead of just white identity? It hought the point was that if we no longer put people in boxes, we wouldn't be able to put one box as superior over another box. If masculinity is abolished, and the standards of feminity remain, we haven't done anything. If whiteness is abolished, but all other racial identities remain, will no other group step up for dominant control?

I don't deny that there is a white power structure, and white people have privilege in most (almost all) situations they encounter because they are white. However, my extremely poor friend who went to predominantly black middle and high schools and was beaten up for being white, by black students. Literally physically harmed, as well as teased and harassed. That wasn't racism? They were targeting her and exerting physical and emotional power over her, solely because she was white. That's not just "prejudice." There are many more opportunities for white people to exert power over minorities, but that doesn't mean that minorities cannot be racist towards whites, ever. And what about systems of oppression within minorities? Can a person of Indian descent be racists towards a person of African descent? vice versa? They are both "under" whites in the racial hierarchy. (I use "under" to state that they are not actually under for any real reason, but that the existing racial hierarchy does place them as inferior)

I also don't like her "oppression olympics" stance. She discounts the oppression of white queers, white women, white transgenders by saying "oh maybe they are a little oppressed, but they still have all the white privilege." People are oppressed. A poor white lesbian in the South might be far more oppressed than an upper middle class, well educated Asian American woman in California. I just really hate this, "my oppression is so worse than your oppression" bullshit rhetoric. I believe this woman faces oppression, but I don't believe that all white people are irreparably assholes because they were born white.

I'm familiar with the critical race analysis standpoint, though its assumptions are far from unassailable. And I continue my personal protest against having very powerful, divisive, and common terms with such extremely different meanings--why not simply clarify? Not that I think CRA is meaningless, but damn, it's a PITA to have such incredibly diverse definitions of such an important--and loaded--word. I'm clearly "racist" by CRA analysis, but not be other analyses.

But in any case, rather than listing power as a required element of racism (thus leading to the inane argument that POC are literally incapable of racism), why not simply add it to the equation?

Ya, everyone can theoretically be racist--which is simply a race-specific way of being discriminatory. Everyone has similar human traits. But obviously the effect of your actions is mostly based on who you "are" in society.

This makes sense. If I was could change the mind of one person so they'd become a non racist non sexist hypothetical "supermoral" being, I'd choose the most powerful person on the planet. Who wouldn't? But if I could change anyone's mind who I wanted to, with no limits, I wouldn't focus on the powerless but I wouldn't exclude them entirely from consideration.

In Central and South Americas racism pretty much follows the Western model.

Juan, my understanding is that understandings of race in Central and South American countries are significantly different from the US model, that rather than adopting the US's one-drop rule, there is a far more variegated racial hierarchy, and that one's status in that hierarchy can be materially affected by money ("Money whitens" is the phrase I remember hearing). Am I misremembering?

...which is to say, that since whites are in power, and are a numerical majority in the U.S.A., it makes sense to focus on changing the mindset of whites (at least in the USA) It makes far less sense from an efficiency standpoint to focus on POC.

But "makes less sens to focus on" and "should be entirely immune from accusations of" are not the same thing.

Well...not just from an efficiency standpoint, but from a standpoint of where the harm is coming from. The vast majority of white people in this country are never going to be harmed or have their life chances materially affected if black people dislike them. The same isn't true for black people facing white racism.

Seven killed in Jerusalen shootings

Two gunmen infiltrated a rabbinical seminary in Jerusalem and opened fire killing at least seven, police and rescue workers said tonight.

Israeli media said about 35 people were wounded and reported police special forces killed the two infiltrators.

This was not racism because in Jerusalem Jews have more power than Palestinians.

This was racism because people with guns have more power than people without guns.

This was not racism because most Jews are members of the IDF and so they do have guns.

This was racism because as seminary students in a dining hall, their guns were not with them, but were at their homes or dorm rooms.

This was not racism because as IDF members, they were legitimate military targets.

This was racism because ...

Yes, that's pretty much what I mean by efficiency, assuming the goal is to "reduce harm from racism."

Oh, er, right. I realized that as soon as I hit "post." Sorry. Somehow I read that and interpreted "efficiency" to mean "efficient at getting the message out"...which was kinda silly of me. Sorry about that.

lol--given the rest of the thread, it'd be easy to miss it when people agree with each other ;)

Juan, my understanding is that understandings of race in Central and South American countries are significantly different from the US model, that rather than adopting the US's one-drop rule, there is a far more variegated racial hierarchy, and that one's status in that hierarchy can be materially affected by money ("Money whitens" is the phrase I remember hearing). Am I misremembering?

Honestly it depends. Money is an insulating factor wherever you go. But there's still a measuring stick of who's more European as opposed to Black or Indigenous. Despite the numerous racial castes white is still on top. You wouldn't believe how many times I've watched a documentary about Venezuela and the upper class people would call Chavez a 'n**ger' or President 'of the n**gers.'

I thought curing sexism required tearing down the standards of masculinity AND feminity.

True, but since femininity is essentially everything outside of masculinity, it's harder to tear down because there's always going to be shifting and contradictory standards.

I too have been subject to rude males taking up half of what little space I am alotted on the plane. I prefer to pay them back in kind. I choose to be just as big an asshat as him. If he feels he must stretch out and take the small space I HAVE PAID FOR, I see no reason I can't make his life just as miserable. I've been known to stretch often, fidget continuously, purposely knock his leg hard (while making it appear like an an accident) and then not appologize, fart the whole way, chew loudly and just be a general all around pain in the ass.

I also love to bring feminist books and printed articles on the plane and read them the whole way. I know they are snooping in what I'm reading and I love it for the sheer fact that it pisses them off.

Ladies, learn how to play their game, don't get upset becuase they want you to. Smile and be an asshole. It's loads of fun. I've actually had them move away from me to empty seats. I don't mind a bit, gives me a little room to stretch out.

By the way, I am a white female.

I too have been subject to rude males taking up half of what little space I am alotted on the plane. I prefer to pay them back in kind. I choose to be just as big an asshat as him. If he feels he must stretch out and take the small space I HAVE PAID FOR, I see no reason I can't make his life just as miserable. I've been known to stretch often, fidget continuously, purposely knock his leg hard (while making it appear like an an accident) and then not appologize, fart the whole way, chew loudly and just be a general all around pain in the ass.

I also love to bring feminist books and printed articles on the plane and read them the whole way. I know they are snooping in what I'm reading and I love it for the sheer fact that it pisses them off.

Ladies, learn how to play their game, don't get upset becuase they want you to. Smile and be an asshole. It's loads of fun. I've actually had them move away from me to empty seats. I don't mind a bit, gives me a little room to stretch out.

By the way, I am a white female.

I found the article on making babies before your ovaries die to be highly offensive. Do mens magazines have articles like this?

Y'all, I am too damn tired after that PP of Idaho incident. All I'll say is:

She never says she hates white people, just that she'd like them to shut the fuck up and stop trying to take leading positions in her struggle, assuming that they're the smartest and most capable people in the room full of anti-racists because they're white.

Sera, I

Damn formatting!

Sera, I heart you!

In a sense, past group victimization or hardship is part of the American experience; young whites, when confronted by real or perceived charges of racism, can point to the mistreatment of their older relatives when they were newly arrived immigrants in the United States.�

So manabanana, according to you
having laws against your race is a "hard" immigrant experience, racial segregation, job discrimination, racial slurs in public newspapers, KKK attacks, and lynchings arent racist, being forced to go to internment camps during WWII- theyre just the immigrant experience? Apparently you dont believe any of that is racist. So what is REAL racism then, because you such the authority on it, right? Is it only considered racism if it happens to a black person? So the Holocaust wasnt racist, it was.....?

"It's about recognizing that there are a lot of different cultural groups on the African continent,"

...and recognizing different cultural groups in the African diaspora too, right?

"Are you seriously suggesting that a small country has a level of cultural diversity comparable to a huge continent is absurd."

Indeed. I mean, I've compared India's cultural diversity to Europe's, but that's comparing a huge nation-state and a small continent.

GopherII, I'm not sure if you're intentionally pretending to be obtuse. In the first place, the quote is an excerpt from Critical White Studies and refers in specific to the use of the "immigrant tale" by whites to justify their knowledge of hardship and deny any culpability in racism since they've "been there" thanks to the experience of their ancestors. I like how you try to accuse manabanana of saying lynchings aren't racist but that racism can only happen to blacks--could you clarify? I also enjoyed your invocation of the Holocaust despite the quote you're referencing mentioning both
"America" and "United States" immigrant experience. So fess up, did you just choose not to read it?

As far as the Southwest airlines story goes, I could see the same thing playing out the same way if Noppler had been white. The jerk didn't call her a racial name; he called her a 'girl' - what woman here hasn't been called a 'girl' by a jerk?

I'm always a bit disturbed by calls to eliminate whiteness. I'm white. If I don't get to be white, what am I? Apparently, I don't have a culture by virtue of being white (unlike people of color who are just lousy with the stuff), and my opinion isn't wanted in a discussion about race - since the message I'm getting here is that I should "just shut the fuck up". Yes, I'll admit that there is white privilege and I'll admit that white people can be racist in a multitude of ways: from sheer malice to sheer ignorance. However, I don't appreciate someone who doesn't know me deciding that I'm part of a white conspiracy to keep the colored man down just because I'm white.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=_61OoR-qEqs&feature=related
I hope we can agree that this schmuck is racist.

What bugs me about the Noppler piece is her refusal to see her part in escalating things by swearing at the guy. Yes, he was being a jerk, but she verbally assaulted him (from his point of view) before he touched her. Should he have said what he said and done what he did? Heck no. But she wants to be seen as a completely innocent victim, and her words evidently perturbed the guy - he did report to the flight attendants that she swore at him.

No, I am not saying women shouldn't ever swear. But don't throw that into an aggressive situation and pretend that the words have no bearing on the outcome.

Holli,
The call to eliminate whiteness bothered me at first too. But reading more about it, I think I can now see where people are coming from. White identity has always been tied into dominance and is not a 'cultural identity' so much, more a system of inequality. As a 'white' person, I don't need to claim whiteness to have culture. And in fact, my culture is not "being white". I am a Canadian first and foremost, and of Dutch ancestry secondly. That is my culture and national/ethnic identity and I haven't got the impression that anyone is suggesting that be stripped from me. Now, I can't choose to simply "opt-out" of being white, as my whole experience is coloured by how society perceives me as white. This is why the whole white framework must be struck down.
Anyone who knows more about this, please feel free to correct me (and/or elaborate on this).

I think you're exactly right, hungerheadache. Whiteness isn't a cultural identity. Being Irish-American is a cultural identity. Being Ashkenazi Jewish is a cultural identity. Being Polish-American is a cultural identity. Being white is merely a descriptor of where you stand in a racial hierarchy.

I really don't see what the problem is with Nopper swearing at all, and it sounds like victim-blaming to me. The man instigated the conflict by being physically aggressive--physically intruding on Nopper's space. When she asked him to stop--didn't smack his leg or in any way return his physical aggression, he became very rude. She was then rude back, and her rudeness included swearwords. Well so fucking what? The fact is, if she had been another man who had sworn at him, he would not have responded in the condescending sexist way he did. He then returned to physical aggression by grabbing her and threatening her.

Why is the woman responsible for doing everything in her power to diffuse and placate an aggressive man? Why shouldn't we express anger? Nopper is the victim here--she is the victim of physical aggression, threats, and the initial rudeness. Swearing doesn't change any of that.

The field of study regarding the construction and maintenance of whiteness and race in general is fairly complex and more than can be explained in one comment. I find Tim Wise to be a helpful introduction to the matter and hope the following links will shed some light onto the matter of rejecting whitness
http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/membershipprivileges.html
http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/WhiteWhine.html
Hungerheadache, you hit the nail on the head. Calls to end whiteness are calls to eliminate the system of dominance based on the imaginary categories of race and not personal attacks on persons identifying as white. I've seen a lot of responses that are loathe to believe that whites could simultaneously participate in such a system and wish reject the notion as the ravings of a racist loon, because surely, only a racist can see race. Part of understanding race and the manner through which it is constructed requires an uncomfortable gaze projected inward at the benefits you may receive everyday without ever recognizing or willingly accepting them. It isn't easy to do when the system is meant to be the unquestioned, invisible, default.

To those people that think that "whiteness" is not some sort of cultural identity and that it leads to all sorts of racial problems, I largely agree with you.

But is "black" or "blackness" a cultural identity then? If so, why? How does that compare to white?

If we are to look at the underlying actual ethnic identities, Irish, Dutch, Jewish, .... Well wait a minute, what's Jewish?

Why should whiteness be broken down and not blackness?

Look at Holli's link. Why does Kambon identify with blacks internationally against whites internationally?

When Nopper calls to eliminate whiteness, why isn't she also calling to eliminate blackness?

Are Hispanics "white"? Apparently by 2050 there will be majority hispanics in the United States? Will they be white by that time?

I am happy doing away with "whiteness" but I think you also are forced to ask, "what is blackness".

"Whiteness isn't a cultural identity."

Yes, yes. I don't identify as white. I recognize that I am white enough to have privilege but that's it. I don't know much about the idea of "eliminating whiteness" but what do I share with other white people besides privilege? We can't assume things about people by looking at their skin colour so why the importance of race?

Okay...

Instead of rereading the numerous posts drenched in willing ignorance and white privilege, I decided to pick through Tamara K. Nopper's article.

First of all, nothing in that article was racist. Neither was it prejudiced or bigoted. Ms. Nopper told the truth, and made some of you feel itchy. Boo-freakin'-hoo.

In his 1920 essay “The Souls of White Folk,� African American scholar and activist W.E.B. Du Bois raised the question: “‘But what on earth is whiteness that one should so desire it?’� Answering his own query, Du Bois responded, “Then always, somehow, some way, silently but clearly, I am given to understand that whiteness is the ownership of the earth forever and ever, Amen!�

...as Du Bois pointed out, the nature of white supremacy requires that white people own everything, including the last and final word.

Not only was this illustrated in the handling of Ms. Nopper's assault, but also in the way that apologists here have been treating her claim.

Nevertheless, white supremacy does not yield to rationality. Instead, appeals to rationality will often make white people angrier.

As I look at the comments posted here, I can't help but see the irony! Am I the only one?

I have, as have many of my friends, indeed, the majority of the world, experienced this type of situation so many times: having white people tell you that what happened to you does not matter, that it is your fault, or that it did not even happen.

Do any of you realize how many times this has happened repeatedly on this site, on other "mainstream" feminist sites, on "progressive" blogs and forums, in these comments?!!

What bugs me about the Noppler piece is her refusal to see her part in escalating things by swearing at the guy. Yes, he was being a jerk, but she verbally assaulted him (from his point of view) before he touched her.

As far as the Southwest airlines story goes, I could see the same thing playing out the same way if Noppler had been white. The jerk didn't call her a racial name; he called her a 'girl'...

I also don't like her "oppression olympics" stance. She discounts the oppression of white queers, white women, white transgenders...

What she did was let this creep go loose to demean and assault other people. (Probably women, men smaller than he, gays, ...) And then she claimed that everyone was against her.

Also, for those people who, for some reason, believe that "white privilege = all whites are racist": It doesn't.

(Do I really have to go through this again?)

If you're born white, it means that you have privilege over others who were not. This does not make you a racist or a bad person. If you are complacent in your privilege and don't recognize for what it entitles you, then yes, Virginia, it does make you a racist and a bad person.

Blackness likely wouldn't exist without the African diaspora. It is not a concept that developed in tandem with whiteness but rather as a result of whiteness. Blackness is constructed as the other, inferior, non normal counterpart to whiteness, enforced through slavery. Blackness is not an identity one can obtain through any action, but rather is stamped via color whereas the historical construction of whitness, at least re: American immigration requires the relinquishment of ethnicity. It would be nice if Blackness could be relinquished, as it would mean that we've given up on the idea of race, but that would also require the end of whiteness. Without whitness to define blackness, blackness wouldn't exist. Of course, I realize that this sentiment "why don't blacks have to question blackness" is just meant to deflect any critique of whiteness but blackness has been questioned in the academic study of race.

What privileges over others do you have Malaika924? Can you recognize all of them? How do you balance them so that you do not take away from others? Which do you exploit, consciously or unconciously, voluntarily or just by being who you are?

Do you atone for your privilege, if so, how?

Where is the gap between Ms. Nopper's essay and Mr. Kambon's speech (Holli's link above)? Is Kambon racist? If not, why not? If so, how does he differ from Nopper?

Is blackness a cultural identity? How does that compare to whiteness? What are the privileges these days of blackness?

When Nopper calls to eliminate whiteness, why isn't she also calling to eliminate blackness?

Because "whiteness" is the result of a history of dominance against People of Color. There was no "whiteness" until the Europeans began their colonization of African and Asian lands and of the Americas.

I am happy doing away with "whiteness" but I think you also are forced to ask, "what is blackness".

"Blackness" is something that Black people have been struggling with for centuries. I know that my ancestors were forcibly taken from their country; sold away from their families; beaten, whipped, lynched, and/or worse for even attempting to keep the history of their homeland alive. In my opinion, Blackness encompasses the various cultures from our various homelands, the struggle that my ancestors endured in the past, and the struggles that I am facing as a black woman today.

Do you have another definition of blackness?

What privileges over others do you have Malaika924? Can you recognize all of them?

I know that I have able-bodied privilege, middle-class privilege, and heterosexual privilege. You?

How do you balance them so that you do not take away from others? Which do you exploit, consciously or unconciously, voluntarily or just by being who you are?

Do you atone for your privilege, if so, how?

First, I recognize that I have these privileges. Secondly, I listen to those who don't have them, and I ask how I can be of service in helping them to get their view point heard.

Your turn.

As we've seen in this thread, and the comments on the original post, one of the easiest ways to exploit one's privilege is to discount, ignore, and define the experiences of non privileged groups. It's easy to fall back on your right not to have to see your own privilege or how it affects others. Taking even just the first step to be aware of the benefits you reap for nothing more than say being heterosexual, or able bodied is helpful for those who are trying to speak out but are silenced by those who are unwilling to listen for fear of making themselves uncomfortable in their own privilege.

In other words, I agree with you Malaika924

Re: Mr. Kambon's speech,

Unfortunately, since I'm at work, I'm unable to view it.

I know that my ancestors were forcibly taken from their country; sold away from their families; beaten, whipped, lynched, and/or worse for even attempting to keep the history of their homeland alive. In my opinion,..

We share something in common then because this happened to my ancestors too, and within the last 70 years.

I know that I have able-bodied privilege, middle-class privilege, and heterosexual privilege. You?

I know that I am disabled, middle-aged, easily discriminated in a job because interviewers can easily determine age, overweight, poor, living week to week on a paycheck, struggle to pay rent before the eviction notice comes, forced to live in uncomfortable warm temperatures because A/C is mandatory where I live but I cannot afford it. I have had my children taken away by the state when my former wife was given permission to leave the state I live in, although I had 50% legal and physical custody.

My daughters asked me just two nights ago why people tried to turn us into soap and lampshades.

We are constantly put upon by others that want to know why we don't have a Christmas Tree. I grew up being told I killed Christ.

I see African Americans, Hispanics, and others celebrate Christmas, and I have no understanding of what that is like, and they have no understanding of what I celebrate, or why. But I look on with envy at how they assume they are normal and I am abnormal.

I have an outie belly button and have always had body image problems because of that, primarily because of how a group of girls in elementary school used to tease me and abuse me over that.

But I am told I am white and thereby privileged, and I actually do recognize that and the many privileges I have enjoyed.

But why do you think that Blackness can encompass many cultures and many different cultural experiences, some as former slave, some as former slaveholders, some from desert, some from rich agricultural lands, many from many different languages, tribal and cultural customs, and even from many many different genetic makeups, when you think that whiteness cannot do that?

I think there is a whiteness, but I wonder if it has more to do with so-called middle class norms and assimilation regardless of race than it does with actual skin color.

And I think there is no whiteness apart from stupid fields we are forced to fill out, and as names we are called by idiot racists both "white" and "black."

Do I atone for my privilege? I try to recognize it. I try to do right by others and recognize the privileges they don't have as well as they ones they do. But the privileges I was born with? I don't apologize for that. And I don't blame others for the privileges they have or demand they apologize for those privileges.

We're individuals, and how we were born is accident, and random choice and none of us had any input into that. We should fight for equality, but we shouldn't blame people for how they were born.

I can't jump. I can't dance. I'm not seen as cool. I'm not allowed to make outrageously racist statements about others. I'm told I must conform to certain standards of clothing. I am subject to age discrimination.

We all have various privileges, we all have various handicaps. I don't believe in original sin, and I don't believe in collective punishment.

I agree with everything you said Malaika (btw, I love your name, it's my nickname for my best friend), except for white people not being racist. I suppose it's possible, but it would take an extremely large effort to root out all of the cultural messages that one had absorbed during their entire lives. Racism is a continuum, right? I don't mean all white people (and again, that includes me) are malicious. But I don't know anyone who has gotten rid of all of these messages just lurking in their subconscious, and I don't know anyone who isn't still benefitting from their privilege. I just can't see how being immersed in classist, racist, sexist culture, one can magically emerge untouched by any of it. It's a lot of work, and some of that might be there and you wouldn't even know until you're confronted with it.

Do you see what I mean at all?

And, this is late, but Flathead, the only one ever responsible for that man's actions is himself. So, no, it's not her responsibility to make sure he never assaults anyone again. I don't care how you spin it or how many times you mention defenseless children, the onus is on him and no one else.

Also, I move to have Flathead's posting privileges revoked. Anyone?

I didn't realize that acknowledging one's privilege meant that you are wailing, gnashing your teeth and sorrowfully apologizing for existence. No one is asking that. But let me posit if someone who was young and able bodied listened to you speak about your economic disadvantages and simply told you to pull yourself up by your bootstraps since if they can do it, you can do it. It would make them a jackass. All one can ask for is that in situations where you are the one who is privileged, that you listen to those who aren't instead of taking their words as a condemnation of you because of that privilege. Issues cannot be resolved if the one party with the ability to effectively combat inequality refuses to open their ears. No punishment, no self flagellation, just listening. That's it.

And, this is late, but Flathead, the only one ever responsible for that man's actions is himself. So, no, it's not her responsibility to make sure he never assaults anyone again. I don't care how you spin it or how many times you mention defenseless children, the onus is on him and no one else.

Seriously? So if you saw someone assaulting someone on an airplane or on the street, you would feel no responsibility to stop that?

Do you participate in Jury Duty? If so, why?

Do you say, or have you heard, things like "Men should stop men from raping?" If so, why?

Also, I move to have Flathead's posting privileges revoked. Anyone?

Why?

If we are to look at the underlying actual ethnic identities, Irish, Dutch, Jewish, .... Well wait a minute, what's Jewish?

I'm not sure I understand the question. There are more ways to deliniate a cultural group than just by the lines on the map.

Are Hispanics "white"? Apparently by 2050 there will be majority hispanics in the United States? Will they be white by that time?

Um. Some will be. But, since "Hispanic" doesn't actually have anything to do with skin color or race, and since there are Hispanics who are black, white, Asian, or Native American, I'm not sure what kind of answer you could possibly expect.

We share something in common then because this happened to my ancestors too, and within the last 70 years.

As you said, we have something in common.

But I am told I am white and thereby privileged, and I actually do recognize that and the many privileges I have enjoyed.

Based on your previous comments, I don't think you do.

But why do you think that Blackness can encompass many cultures and many different cultural experiences, some as former slave, some as former slaveholders, some from desert, some from rich agricultural lands, many from many different languages, tribal and cultural customs, and even from many many different genetic makeups, when you think that whiteness cannot do that?

Eh? When did I say that?

I think there is a whiteness, but I wonder if it has more to do with so-called middle class norms and assimilation regardless of race than it does with actual skin color.

And I think there is no whiteness apart from stupid fields we are forced to fill out, and as names we are called by idiot racists both "white" and "black."

And this line of thinking is your white privilege at work.

You wrote about how you felt around those who celebrated Christmas, and how they perceived themselves as "normal". Christians are seen as "the default" in American society. As a Christian, I don't know what it's like to see Christmas trees, Santa Claus, and hear Christmas carols and not be a part of it. If I choose to, I could disregard the feelings of those who aren't Christian. There wouldn't be much of a backlash because, in that case, I am one of the privileged.

The reason that you can see race as simply "stupid fields we are forced to fill out, and as names we are called by idiot racists", is because your race - White - is the default, just as my religion - Christian - is the default.

As a Black woman, I don't have the privilege of ignoring racist shit and the casual discrimination against People of Color. As a Jewish man, you don't have the privilege of ignoring anti-semitism or the casual discrimination against Jewish people.

But the privileges I was born with? I don't apologize for that.

I don't think anyone wants White people to apologize for being White. What I would like, however, is for you to evaluate what it means for you to be White. And also, to simply give an open ear to those of who aren't.

I can't jump. I can't dance. I'm not seen as cool.

Now you're drifting into Offensive Stereotype Land.

Seriously? So if you saw someone assaulting someone on an airplane or on the street, you would feel no responsibility to stop that?

Do you participate in Jury Duty? If so, why?

Do you say, or have you heard, things like "Men should stop men from raping?" If so, why?

Yes. Seriously. And the situations you concocted are not analogous to this woman's situation. You said that if this man goes on to assault someone else it is because she failed to fulfill her civic responsibility. That's not true. Then you asked if I think I have a responsibility to stop a crime in progress. I have a responsibility to alert the authorities. And I would do that. If the person attacked decided not to press charges for whatever reason, that's their call, and their attacker's responsibility does not magically transfer to them in doing so.

Yes, I do serve jury duty. I actually just completed jury service two months ago. That would be an excellent example of something that is actually an adult citizen's responsibility.

Yes, men are the ones who can stop rape. Specifically, male rapists. Why do I say so? Because they are the only ones who have a choice in the matter. It's not their victim's responsibility to stop them or diffuse their attack. Only the attacker's. Rape wouldn't happen if rapists did not exist. Simple.

And I think your posting privileges should be revoked because you are a troll. You are racist and you are very close to being some sort of rape apologist, what with insisting that victims have a responsibility to stop sexual assailants from attacking.

Legally speaking, as a general rule there's ABSOLUTELY NO responsibility to intervene on someone else's behalf. There is even less (can you have less than zero in this case?) to suggest that someone's obligation will sprout up as an amorphous "duty to the public." Puhleease. So a claim that she "should have" done something is, on its face, completely at odds with our law and the general practice of the country.

Also: It's not as if everyone here thinks that Farrow is a saint. I certainly don't. But you're really not helping things by your insanity; can you please get off my side?

Based on your previous comments, I don't think you do.

I don't think anyone wants White people to apologize for being White.

Kambon wants to kill us over that. According to the wikipedia, many black supremicists agree. How can you ignore that or not see that?

Now you're drifting into Offensive Stereotype Land.

Respectfully, I disagree. I am told as a white man, I can't dance over and over by the media and by many people. Same thing with being cool. I am told as a middle aged slightly chubby white guy, that I am just not cool and never can be. Over and over. By people, by society, by culture. Ageism, racism, fatism.

And this line of thinking is your white privilege at work.

No, because checking White is inaccurate as we've agreed. Checking Caucasian is not accurate as I am not from the Caucas mountains, checking non-white, other is inaccurate.

Why is it wrong for people to associate whiteness with Irish, Italian, Jewish, English, German, some Hispanics, but it is not wrong for people to associate blackness with (and I truly do apologize if I get this wrong) speakers of Swahili, Bantu, Yoruba, or ǃKung or Buganda, Bura, Kongo, Zulu, Hutu, Tutsi, Jamaicans?

I am told Nopper is not saying Irish identity is bad, or German identity is bad, but White identity is bad.

Why then is Black identity okay? Isn't it really Zulu, or Tutsi, or Jamaican?

Shouldn't we be abolishing whiteness AND blackness? Just as others would say we should be abolishing masculinity AND femininity?

Based on your previous comments, I don't think you do.

Well, I don't think you understand the privileges YOU have. Can we ever determine who is right? Who actually recognizes their own privileges? Is it a question that can be answered, needs to be answered, or should be answered?

We all have privileges. They are different privileges. Demonizing people and throwing them out of conversations or telling them to STFU or take a backseat because they are XX is just wrong and doesn't lead to good outcomes.

Note to Sailorman: you're clueless. So clueless you don't even have the names right.

I'm not allowed to make outrageously racist statements about others.

Too bad, so sad. You are just mocking the notion of privilege now. You say you try to recognize your privilege, but everything you say demonstrates otherwise.
You have an outie bellybutton? Since when are people with outies treated like second-class citizens. All you're doing is listing tiny physical characteristics you dislike.
You don't like when people dismiss the struggles you face as a Jew, do you? And rightly so. And yet you eagerly mock people of color.

Sorry folks, this thread is devolving so I'm shutting it down.