WHAT??? thats not even TRYING to be subtle!

ugh this is infuriating...and the picture of the model looking so happy wearing that shirt pisses me off even more. im complaining right now.

::sigh::

And the fact that a female model is sporting it in a picture, smiling, just makes me want to puke even more.

complaint lodged, including wondering why they would sell an item promoting committing a violent crime. Although from the text on the site and type of stuff they sell, I doubt they care. These are just disgusting.

That doesn't even make sense to me. No means no, but only when I'm drunk? And even then, only maybe? Why don't they just say, "No means you go right on ahead!"?

The shirt doesn't even make sense. Does it mean "No means no! Well, there is some gray area if I'm drunk..." or "No means no! Well, it might in fact mean no if I'm drunk. But if I'm sober definitely not." Or are they trying to be sarcastic and just sounding stupid. Who would make a shirt like that anyway?

Yeah complaint lodged!
What a fucking disgrace and you know those idiots are going to claim it's not offensive because it's "just a joke" not realising that pointing out one of the most disturbing aspects of the way we deal with rape in a joke is what's so disturbing about it.
EVERYONE COMPLAIN!!! If we hit them enough times they might get pissed off and stop selling it. I'm hoping the smiling moron in the picture had a plain t-shirt on and the writing was superimposed. I'm an optimist!

Their website says "we make stupid stuff so you don't have to," which leads me to think they are being sophomoric rather than sarcastic. Grf. Idiots.

I wrote a complaint e-mail. What also really disgusted me is that the model shown wearing the t-shirt is quite young looking (teenager-ish),at least imo. Not that it wouldn't be just as horrendous otherwise, but it just seems to make it extra vile. Nothing like promoting rape among among our country's young people.

She does look young, but I'm betting she's older than she looks. Long hair and a round face will do that to a person, and I know that from experience. I look a little older now that I got my hair cut short, but I still look about 15. I once got a 12 and under discount at the age of 17, and its not even like I was trying to trick them or something!

I am so ashamed that this company is based in my hometown... Next time I'm back home I'll see if I can find them and have a little personal word.

Guh. Todd Goldman (the "mastermind" behind David and Goliath) is the antithesis of class and creativity. Not only is this stupid and offensive, it's design was most likely stolen.

Damnit. This frustrates me so much.

I just did a Dating Violence seminar at a high school today and I stressed to them that the thought process of "if she's drunk she might sleep with me" is the mentality that causes rape and that if you acknowledge that the girl will make a decision drunk that she wouldn't make sober and plan on taking advantage of it you are planning on RAPING her.

Then along comes this FUCKING shirt

Look, I've been involved in a situation of ambigious consent, and I chose to err on the side of caution. If everything was ok and we had sex, everythng's cool. But I just couldn't know that was the case. If I was mistaken, she would have been raped and I woud have been a rapist. Better to just put her to bed and kiss her goodbye and steal her key to lock the door and put the key in her mail slot.

May I also complain that on their customer service page has an image of five clearly women all smiling saying they are there to "service" us.

/pukes twice.

what the FUCK. and i love how innocently the girl in the picture is smiling, like she's happy to be wearing something so disgusting. this is just the sort of thing that's teaching boys to grow up to be awful human beings that are detrimental towards equality. fuck. jesus H christ.

Being "gray" raped (as some would my rape) was one of the worst experiences of my life, and it was only compounded by the fact that my friends and family saw it as nothing more than a "mistake" and were horrified that I even suggested I may have been raped. I was the butt of every other joke for MONTHS because of what happened, and I have only been able to really open up to one person about it because most people can't understand why I would be upset at anyone but myself for what happened to me. This t-shirt reflects a culture that honestly thinks it's acceptable to rape a girl during a blackout and then harangue her afterward for being a slut.

It makes me so sad and angry that anyone thinks that's funny.

wow, Joy. I'm so sorry you had to deal with the double trauma of being raped with a victim-blame chaser.

As you well know, there is nothing gray about rape. Being drunk to the point of blacking out does not mean it's open season. I know if you hang here you know that, but I know it's important to be reminded that you're not at fault for your rapist's actions.

*hug*

To actually make it funny, yet still keep the "no means no except...", perhaps it should be changed to:
"No Means No - Except when I have a safeword"
Accurate, funny, and still eyecatching

My e-mail to them:
Subject: Please stop encouraging rape.

I was horrified to see your "NO MEANS NO (well,maybe if I'm drunk)" shirt. Honestly, how did that get past the pitch meeting?

A woman who's drunk is unable to consent. Mentally. Emotionally. Legally.

Sex with a woman who has said "no" is rape. Sex with a drunk woman who has said "no" is totally, totally rape.

Rape destroys lives. I'll point you to rainn.org for statistics on how widespread it is, particularly among the demographic that generally wears your clothing. Selling this shirt is a horribly irresponsible thing to do.

I've got a sense of humor - it's just that this isn't funny. I will no longer wear the David & Goliath products that I own, will not buy any more, and will definitely pass this along to my friends.

I urge you to stop selling this shirt, and I fervently hope that you do so before someone wearing it gets raped. If you don't care about the women,maybe you'll care about the lawsuit they'd win against you.

-- [legal name]
[rape crisis counselor credentials]

I wrote to them. I have never, ever complained about anything in my life. The letter was poorly worded but I just felt so depressed by it. I basically said that whether or not they acknowledge it rape is common and not taken seriously, and what a fucking trigger stuff like this can be. *sigh*

From my time working at a rape crisis center I worked out an answer to the “blame the victim” folks. Because, you see, the problem in refuting them is that they know and everyone knows that there are things that a person can do which increases or decreases their likelihood of being the victim of a violent crime such as rape. People, including the survivors, focus on that and then blame the victim when he/she made choices that contributed to bad outcomes.

But the thing is this: first and foremost, there would be no violent crime if the perpetrator didn't choose to violate someone else. Period. It's absurd to make an equivalence between, for example, failing to lock the door to your home and a burglar stealing from it. Do you have a responsibility to yourself to protect your belongings? Sure. But you have a much, much greater responsibility to not steal other people's things. Much more so do violence to other people. So the implied moral equivalence in the “blame the victim” mentality is absurd and deeply offensive.

But beyond that, there is the simple abstraction that moral responsibility is not a zero-sum situation. Failing to lock one's door does not subtract from the burglar's culpability in entering the home and stealing from it.

The real and tragic pernicious nature of “blaming the victim” is that the victim usually has a tendency to blame the victim (himself/herself) and therefore others doing so is a powerful reinforcement. And what we all do, some or much of the time, is place all responsibility on our own shoulders in terms of our choices and consequences of our decisions. “If I hadn't done x then y wouldn't have happened.” And we—wrongly—conclude that the responsibility for y is ours entirely.

And that's never true. Many people are involved in creating any given outcome and they each have their own, indivisible, and non-commutable responsibilities.

The reason this matters a great deal in the rape crisis movement is because part of what rape crisis folk deal with is education and safety. And, at first glance because people think the way I've described, it's hard to square the talk about safety and choices with never in any sense “blaming the victim”. What I mean to say, is that when survivors are hearing about how to be safer, they are inevitably going to be encouraged to walk down the path of self-blame.

And the antidote to that is what I've written: realizing that the two responsibilities of the perp and the victim are grossly unequal; and that neither changes the other. Choosing to get passed-out drunk at a fraternity is just as much a bad decision when the outcome isn't rape as when it is.

All of which is to point out the obvious, or what should be obvious: getting passed-out drunk in a high-risk situation is a bad decision, but it's nothing compared to the bad decision of the rapist. They are not merely not in the same ballpark, they're not in the same universe. The ideas that there's a comparison and that one cancels out the other are absurd and tragic.

I really live the way you put that Keith Ellis - not a zero sum game sums it up nicely.

I would add the other thing I always want to ask the victim blamers "So if you saw me passed out drunk or maybe knock unconscious some other way you would rape me?"

Joy, I'm also sorry. Rape is terrible but to also not have needed support afterwards? Sorry.

"The real and tragic pernicious nature of “blaming the victim” is that the victim usually has a tendency to blame the victim (himself/herself) and therefore others doing so is a powerful reinforcement."

No kidding. I was sexually assaulted and first I'll mention I hate how people who deny any 'crisis' don't even think about other forms of sexual assault. If as many women as the statistics say have been raped, I can only imagine how many have been touched even after saying no. So there's a big problem. Anyway, point is, I knew all about victims blaming themselves but still felt like I had to actively resist blaming myself. "Shouldn't I have not gotten into a car with him? No, it's not your fault" went through my head many times.

Yo Fenriswolf - a poorly worded complaint is a hell of a lot better than nothing. I don't have the energy after a 10 hour work day to craft anything stellar, either but here's what I sent:
"Rape "humor" is NOT OK. I work with victims of sexual assault, the VAST majority of whom do not report the assault to police because they know they'll be disbelieved and/or blamed for what was done to them. Some of the victims were drunk and targeted by perpetrators who know they can probably get away with it because of the attitude thatsays it's ok or worse yet FUNNY. There is nothing funny about what victims go through. Your rape "humor" t-shirt is not edgy, it is not original, it is not ironic and the people who are deeply offended by it are not just looking for something to be offended by. It's a slap in the face and a revictimization to rape survivors. I am sure you've heard the statistics about the likelihood of women being sexually assaulted in their lifetime (one in three, acc. to national studies.) Do you understand that that means one out of three women seeing this t-shirt are potentially triggered by it and made to doubt and blame themselves for their assault all over again? It's not ok."

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that this was completely nonsensical.

Complaint lodged. A stupid joke, that's not funny.

This is absolutely disturbing! It just seems like a backlash against feminism and the idea that women have the right to make choices about their own bodies. This whole "gray rape is not really rape" mentality continues the notion that men have the right to women's bodies, since apparently rape is a natural consequence of being drunk! I just hope no one buys these atrocious t-shirts and we can get enough complaints in to stop this! David and Goliath is another company I will never buy from....

I swear when I see things like this I just want to cry. I complained to them, pointed out why the shirt was not cool then proceeded to give them shirt ideas that could more "accurately" depict their contempt for people irregardless of race and gender. Naturally I suggested reproductions of "picnic" lynchings that were popular in the American south for decades, a Swastika shirt implying that the Jews asked for it and a reproduction of the bonehead phrase "If she's old enough to bleed, she's old enough to bone" with a picture of a nine-year-old girl on it.

I wrote at the end "I know you don't care anyway. It's a free country, you'll argue. You don't have to buy it, you'll say. People have the right to wear whatever they want. True, true. ... (I'm aware) you only desire "fun" without consequences, get off on people being pissed at you and desire as much attention as you can garner to push your controversial product. I just say, if you're going to be an oppressive white male with no regards for others go all the way and just wear the Klan suit so there is no dispute of who you really are."

Who the fuck buys this shit??

Complaint sent. Maybe not the most grown-up complaint I've ever sent, but I think it's the thought (and volume) that counts:

In regard to your "No Means No (Well Maybe If I'm Drunk)" t-shirt:

Rape is not funny. How is it even possible that you need this explained to you?

David and Goliath, Inc., you are part of the problem. Just take this t-shirt off your website already. It is beyond offensive.

“If as many women as the statistics say have been raped, I can only imagine how many have been touched even after saying no. So there's a big problem.”

One of the things that happened to me when I worked in Rape Crisis and talked about it to people was that a very large portion of women close to me (family, friends) and women who felt they could trust me (classmates, etc) disclosed to me that they were survivors of sexual assault. It was truly horrifying and astonishing and not just because I'm male—most women I know aren't aware of how ubiquitous violence against women is, they don't talk about it with each other and deal with their pain in mostly silence.

Partly based upon what I know from good statistics, and partly from what I experienced personally, I've come to believe that at least half of all women will at some point in their lives experience some form of sexual violence. Half. When I assert this most places, I'm shouted down. Usually by men, but sometimes by women. When confronted by this reality, it was the first time I really took seriously the rhetoric of “The War on Women”.

We've made some important strides legally with regard to blaming the victim and also criminalizing marital rape. But, culturally, I'm not sure we've made much headway in fighting violence against women in the 17 years since I did that rape crisis work. I do see important strides forward in the larger feminism movement, but not nearly as much with regard to rape and sexual violence against women in general.

Back then, I wanted to work to create a national college organization against rape and sexual violence that involved both women and men—I think campus rape is more amenable to reduction through education and peer pressure than other forms of rape. And I believe that working from that end will help work against more explicitly violent forms of rape because as we work away at removing the ambiguities, the violence and hate is more and more revealed for what it is...there's nothing to hide behind. I didn't do such organizing, though, for various reasons, among them the eternal difficulties of being a male feminist, where taking any initiative is always seen with suspicion (and rightly so).

Complaint lodged!

complaint sent and will definitely be calling customer service tomorrow. I want to get a verbal complaint in, too.

I thought this stupid shirt had already been dealt with at the same time that students were dealing with Bluenotes for their BLATANT attack on the Canadian Federation of Students No Means No campaign at this time last year. It's so obvious that they're directly ripping off the campaign with the "no"s in purple and "means" in white. It's appalling that they're continuing to get away with selling that piece of garbage.

Keith Ellis, excellent comment. I read it and this came to mind: "If he hadn't raped her, she wouldn't have been raped."

If only we could tilt the perspective this way a bit.

I wrote to them telling them I do not know what they are trying to prove but if they have a mother or a sister then why would they ever think a shirt like this was a good idea? I said they obviously took women and sexual violence as a joke so does that mean they would not mind if their mother or sister were wearing that shirt and someone with the "same sense of humor" as them took it as an invitation would they be mad? I'm going to tell everyone I know to write to them and I told them I wouldn't stop writing until that shirt was discontinued. That is just sickening.

Ugh. I'm putting this on my blog, too. Both of my readers should see this.

As has been noted, the suggestion implied by this t-shirt, that intoxication removes any supposed ambiguity of consent to sex, is not only not funny, but is also offensive, disgusting and dangerous. But there is also another reading of the t-shirt, just as horrible, which hasn't yet been mentioned.

Read directly - No means no... well maybe if I'm drunk - what the t-shirt says is that only sometimes when I'm drunk no means no. In effect, no always really means yes unless I'm drunk, and maybe even then no might mean yes. Basically, fuck me whenever you want because I don't know what I want, but you don't have to fuck me if I'm too drunk, but even if I am, and you do, that's okay.

Hi, longtime lurker, finally "uncloaking". A big hello... and this makes me sick. Sad and sick. I lodged my complaint. I can't believe this garbage.

Complaint lodged!
At least I have a slight hope that their heads might explode while they are laughing at my poor english :)
But I just was to angry to think about right grammar or elaborate words...
Never mind, I hope their heads may explode anyways.
How dare they making such misogynist, sexist, ignorant teshirts?

Or even worse, replace "...because I don't know what I want..." with "...because I'm really a prick-teasing slut..."

Complaint lodged as well.

Urgh. This is absolutely disgusting. Stuff like this makes me so angry and depressed. In a world where 30% of people think a woman is 'totally or partially' responsible for her rape if she was drunk, we really don't need shit like this.

Complaint lodged.

i also sent a complaint.. here it is if anyone is interested

To David and Goliath,

I am writing you to express my disgust and disbelief regarding your choice to promote and sell the "NO MEANS NO WELL MAYBE IF I'M DRUNK" t-shirt. I feel like I should have nothing to say, because the message on the t-shirt speaks for itself. This leads me to believe that your company is either completely ignorant to what rape and sexual assault are, or worse, you simply don't care.

Rape is not a joke. 'Jokes' show what is deemed acceptable by society. The t-shirt and the smiling model in the advertisement are both repulsive and incite victim-blaming discourses that hold women responsible for their own sexual assaults. You, David and Goliath, are promoting rape.

I will no longer be a customer of David and Goliath. I will also be looking into what companies you are affiliated with and I will make sure to discontinue supporting them as well.

I respectfully request that you stop selling and promoting the "NO MEANS NO WELL MAYBE IF I'M DRUNK" t-shirt.
I look forward to your response.

Sincerely,
Jenna Owsianik

just fired off an email:
Hello,

This email is in regards to the "No Means No...except if I am drunk" T-shirt.

I understand your company is supposed to be about edgy humor.

I'm just not sure how the humiliating, degrading, painful, mortifying and physically and psychologically torturous act of rape is considered funny by your company and worthy of a T-shirt.

I would appreciate a reply in explanation.

Regards,
Erin Whiteside

There are so many ways of compounding the problems in UK and USA with assuring conviction of rapists and this is one of the sure-fire winners. I was raped by a guy who went to my school, alot of my childhood friends had been sexually assaulted by him but never told anyone. After the trial was over (he got away with it) these old friends came forward to me and felt comfortable telling me about it. I'm glad they had a chance to speak about it and I was able to tell them that what had happened to them was wrong but, if we didn't have this culture of victim-blaming they would have come forward earlier, I may have never been near the man that night or their evidence could have been used against him in the trial. Can't tell you how frustrating it is to see things like this, a reminder of why his other victims couldn't trust their convictions and come forward.

This is the first time I've made any comment, but this shirt outraged me. I wanted to let everyone know that not only did I write them a letter via email and snail mail, but I also left a message at their customer service office. Apparently 9 am is too early for poor David and Goliath. I also convinced all 8 students in my honors womens studies course to write them emails.

Not only are people NOT getting that rape is serious, but now they think it's funny.

And this t-shirt from the same company is so much better?

http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/shop/images/tees6/6057_0L.jpg

the whole website is discusting. I hate that they play off sexism and rape as "funny" grrrr

My email, also poorly worded, but better than nothing:

To Whom it May Concern,

This shirt:

(url)

is promoting violent crime against women and girls. It disgusts me that you sell this, that the model consented to have her image posted on the internet wearing it, and that you apparently find rape and date rape amusing and entertaining.

This sends the message to boys and young men that sexual activity does not require consent from one's partner. This is completely inappropriate and you should remove it from your website ASAP.

Thank you for your time,
(krissy)

Tricky one. What to do with these types? The more complaints you send in the more validated they will feel as the outrage you're expressing is exactly what they want and will drive sales/creation of more shirts like this. Of course if you could get it over the tipping point, say with a few hundred thousand complaints, it might work but then some other mini-manufacturer will start making them. Web-based sales protect them from what happened to the "boys are dumb" folks who were selling their wares at brick and mortar institutions mainly. Tough situation, shouldn't be tolerated but it can't be eradicated in the near future. frustrating.

I think we won the battle on this one guys...

http://tobestalks.blogspot.com/2008/02/feminist-blogs-made-difference.html

I wrote a complaint also and told all my friends to.

THAT'S GREAT NEWS! THANKS FOR THE NEWS TOBES!

Thanks for the update, Tobes! It's a small victory, but a victory worth celebrating.

I'm speechless. Yet, glad they're already pulling it.

I really, really, wonder where the disconnect for Wal-Mart is, when it comes to violence against women, and other issues they seem to have with females. I'm afraid that my e-mail to them is not going to be as constructive, as the above examples.

A woman who's drunk is unable to consent. Mentally. Emotionally. Legally.

I think these sorts of issues require great care with language. By that definition, 90% of men in this country are rapists - including me.

I think it's cute.

I think it's cute.

Tee hee. But isn't this like about owning your body and stuff? I think it's funny. LOL.

troll spill--cleanup on aisle five!

yah.. the folks at david and goliath seem a little bitter

yah.. the folks at david and goliath seem a little bitter

Wow, what are we teaching our young women? No wonder girls are afraid to report rapes when they are getting mixed messages. When they are told one thing about rape, but the media tells them otherwise, whom are they supposed to believe?

While this shirt is trying to be cute, it is only teaching teens that rape is funny and should not be taken seriously. Would you want your daughter carrying around this message, let alone advertising underage drinking? I can only imagine what guys would think if they passed a young girl wearing this shirt. It is an open invitation to be raped. Rape is never justified, and by promoting it this way, girls will never learn the seriousness of this crime.