"Of course, you should feel free to have lots of babies if you like them and they make you happy!"

...and if YOU can afford them.

Gilbert suggests that people claim their kids are their chief source of happiness largely because it's what they are expected to say.

OMG, too true!

Reason can be surprisingly awesome for a "free"-market libertarian publication. When they turn to social or scientific issues, they come out with some great contrarian arguments.

Reason is a terrific magazine. As I have said on more than one occasion, feminists probably have more in common with the free market crowd than with the left wing labor movement. Unfortunately, the movement seems to have aligned itself with the latter.

Free market advocates tend to celebrate achievement, believe in the importance of career and productivity and focus primarily on consensual relationships in both the social and economic realm. I think there is a lot of philosophical common ground that should be explored.

EmmaSteinfeld - so only the rich should have kids?

Simpson's bit is harrlaious.
I do love my own children, and several other people, more than material wealth, but laughter is good too.

Mindy: I don't recall saying that. Does one have to be "rich" to be able to afford children?

I don't think anyone should be having "lots of babies." Overpopulation, carbon footprints???? Hello!!

@Mindy -- there's a wide range between "can afford to feed more mouths" and "rich".
- - - - -
I love my kids but I also know I'd have been happy if I'd never had them. There are plenty of "maggie barfed in your purse" moments when I wonder what the hell I was thinking. But it's also not "the kids" that make me happy, it's stuff we do together (games, trips, conversations, etc). Barf makes me sad, whining about something makes me annoyed, playing a board game is fun, hugs are nice... it's a mix of things.

Children are the one area that it seems every stranger in the world feels justified to have a deep, personal opinion on my life. Many strangers in the store: "Oh, a boy and a girl, you've got a set! So you're done!" A set? If that's my attitude, I'd be better off collecting beanie babies.

Reproduction worked out for me. I wouldn't push anybody else into it if they don't feel like it, though. [Except because I'm jealous about their freedom from babysitters and soccer practice...]

PurdueAttorney-

Unfortunately, the libertarian market-worshipping contingent also supports coercive hierarchies based on who has the most culturally valued "accomplishments" and unrestrained capitalism that screws over just about everybody but rich white western men while the labor-loving left is full of fair and rational human beings. I like it when feminism allies itself with fair and rational human beings.

Maybe you think that feminism is about careers and productivity, and maybe you are convinced that the "free" market as it stands has anything to do with consent (as opposed to capitalist bullying), but I personally find the bridges you're trying to build really really icky.

What Emma and Book_Grrl said.

AMEN!!

I've been saying this same thing for years. Ever since I was young, I knew I didn't want children - EVER. And yet, all kinds of people - from family members to total strangers - keep telling me that I'll change my mind someday, and that I *NEED* to have a baby! My answer is always that I am WAY too selfish to have children, and I love my free time and disposable income too much to have kids. And I am certainly NOT the "mommy" type.

And yet, when I say that, people STILL glance knowingly at each other with their smug little smirks and say things like, "Oh, you just wait! We'll see you in five years with a bunch of kids attached to you!" at which point I shudder in disgust at the very thought. Not only is it rude and arrogant for people to think that just because I was born a female, I NEED to procreate, but it's really nobody's business but mine.

And if they still say to me, "Oh, when are you going to have a bay-beee, you should have a bay-beeeee, you NEED to have a BAY-BEEEE!!", then I tell them to take that sentence and replace the word "baby" with the word "cancer" and that will pretty well indicate my feelings on the subject!!

That usually shuts them up. :)

"Perhaps it's because they don't like them very much."

I can't remember the last time an article's subhead made me want to turn cartwheels and scream "hallelujah"! As I approach my mid-thirties, I've noticed more often than not how cruel and judgemental people can be toward the 'childfree-by-choice' crowd. I get that my mom is disappointed (she WOULD make a wonderful grandmother), but the snarky comments I get from business assoicates or the wives of my husband's friends are enough to make me want to lose my shit.

I don't like children, peroid. I don't like the noise they make, their lack of reasoning skills, the TV programs my formerly sane friends are forced to watch with their kids, etc., etc. I don't know if I am missing a parenting gene or if disliking children is just something that has developed in my nature, but it is what it is.

I DON'T LIKE THEM. My husband doesn't like them. Thank you, Reason Mag, for reminding me that this is okay. Every other day of my life I am made to feel like some sort of social pariah.

I've been saying this same thing for years. Ever since I was young, I knew I didn't want children - EVER. And yet, all kinds of people - from family members to total strangers - keep telling me that I'll change my mind someday, and that I *NEED* to have a baby! My answer is always that I am WAY too selfish to have children, and I love my free time and disposable income too much to have kids. And I am certainly NOT the "mommy" type.
----------

You took the words out of my mouth. (Although it would be "daddy" type in my case.) I realized when I was 12 that I just don't like kids. Almost 20 years later and nothing has changed.

My mother held out hope for grandkids for years, but finally admitted defeat a few years ago. (I'm an only child.)

@ Mz.Stilletto:

Amen, my sister. Again, feels good to hear some likeminded feelings toward something I feel quite strongly about.

When I get the "Oh, just you wait" line, I usually respond with this: "You know those people who accidentally leave their kids in hot cars in the summer, and everyone says 'how awful that a child would die that way' and 'that person should have never been a parent'? I could be that kind of parent, so I'm saving my child's life by not giving it life."

Seriously, I am a completely forgetful person who lives in her head half the time, riding elevators 20 stories past the floor I needed to get off on. I KNOW I would not make an even decent parent, and damn it, I'd like someone to thank me for realizing this and not bring a helpless human into the world.

*exhale* Ok, feel better, getting back to work now.

I do agree that people shouldn't be having "lots of babies" because of over-population concerns. In fact, I wish I could say I don't want to have children but I have not out-evolved that pesky drive to reproduce. I think it's fucking ridiculous that people have issues with other people making the decision NOT to reproduce. I have an aunt and uncle whom have no children and I have always loved dearly and I was dismayed to hear my other aunt (a mother and grandmother) make a snarky comment about they "didn't like children and had never changed a diaper." If they didn't like children, they certainly never let it on to me as a child because I loved loved loved seeing them. And it's pretty fucking lame to expect that everyone is going to get some sort of magical fulfillment from scraping baby shit off a screaming child.

This is when I like Big Brothers/Big Sisters. You can have all the fun with a kid without the responsibility of taking care of one full time. I do like kids, but the idea of popping one out and raising one doesn't appeal to me at all.

And I do love that Simpsons episode. "PPASSCCATAG is also a disease of the brain stem." Everything I know I learned from that show.

I love it, I love it, I love it.

I have never wanted kids (I'm 25) and I alway get the 'you'll change your mind' line. I always tell people that when they say that to me, it just makes me more set in my ways.

Would I be a good mom? Yes. Would my parents be amazing grandparents? Yes, because they were wonderful parents to me. But I do not like kids, I do not find them appealing, and I believe that in the time it would take to be dedicated to raising a kid (or two or three), I can invest myself in causes that need the help and that I care about.

And triskelion, your last line was priceless. I laughed out loud at my desk.

I think it's a feminist issue that so many childless here thought they need to frame their decision in selfishness or that they'd somehow be a horrible parent.

There's not need to "level" to the accuser. To make the accuser feel better by putting yourself down.

Just say you don't want to be a parent - you don't want to have kids. If it's a puzzle, it's a puzzle to them.

Frankly, I wish people would not have children as "old age caretakers" or have children because it's the thing to do or have children because they want to be a stay at home mom, but they don't particularly like kids (yes, there are those), or have kids to shut up their spouse or family -- or have kids just on that birth control failure.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is no more of a pro-life position than to have every child be a wanted child and every parent to be a chosen parent absolutely.

@Mz. Stilletto & vtcheme "And I am certainly NOT the "mommy" type."

C'mon now. What IS the "mommy type?" I may or may not be "the mommy type," but I'm a kick-a$$ mom. I dislike the notion that there is a "mommy type" that we can collectively look down upon.

Kali Ma - JEEBUS, seriously? Now I'm being *tsk'd* over my use of the phrase "mommy type"? Good grief!!

I am not "collectively looking down" on the supposed "mommy types", nor am I encouraging anyone else to do so. I'm just saying I'M NOT ONE. Is that OK with you? That I don't feel like a "mommy" in any conceivable way? Seriously, if I had a kid, I'd be the kind to stick it in a cage hanging from the ceiling and forget about it for a few days. Do you still disagree that I should be labeled NOT a "mommy type"??

Try to put away your knee-jerk reactions once in a while; they're not helpful. I'm real happy for you that you're a kick-ass mom, but personally, I couldn't even give a shit. No offense. But surely someone will be offended anyways - someone always is.

I am so, so tired of having to apologize for this, but it's a touchy subject so here goes.

Your kids are fine for you. Enjoy them; I'm sure they're marvelous little people. I do not have kids, and I do not want kids. Please don't take it personally. It's nothing to do with you.
Also I am so so tired of people telling me I'll change my mind because it's what every woman wants, and aren't I greedy/selfish for not having at least one child?
If refusing to bear a child I don't want is selfish, then yeah I guess I am. If insisting that the only way to be a fulfilled woman is to bear children when the world is full of unwanted children already- I was one, I should know- then I do not need that fulfillment.
Again, mothers, fathers, this is not about you or your kids. This one choice, this one decision is about me, and me alone, and that's pretty much the way I want it.

I don't mind children. It is usually parents who piss me off. Not to mention a culture that rewards parenthood with everything from tax breaks to baby showers to minivans with multiple juice-box-sized cup holders to anxiety for women who choose not to bear children. That really gets me, too. But not as much as parents themselves. Ugh. Give me children any day!

I think one day i might want like one kid, but thats after I can have years of a disposable income and living it up and traveling so I don't see that for a VERY long time (i'm only 20 so at the very least 10 years).
I hate when people say that I'll change my mind about babies and have like 12. I don't like babies that much, but I think it'd be cool waaaaaaaaay later on.
In the meantime, i'm enjoying buying books and shoes.

"Perhaps it's because they don't like them very much."

See...I didn't like this part at all. I hate the implication that I must dislike children just because I don't want one of my own.

I love kids. They are generally adorable and far more intelligent than we give them credit for and always thought provoking. I see a baby (even the atrocious ones) and go awe...isn't he just the cutest little thing.

But some people insist that I'm either in denial or a child-hater because I don't want to have one of my own.

Why does not having children have to mean that you think they're vile little creatures? (Answer: probably because you're being demonized for being the baby factory the patriarchy demands.)

I like them...but I don't want my entire world to revolve around them (for any period of time really) particularly one that I can't pick and sure as hell can't return.

The "You'll change your mind" comment is a whole bunch of misogynistic projection. For some reason, parents seem to believe the childfree people, especially childfree women, are getting away with something by not having children.

The common standby of "You'll change your mind" is a feeble attempt to insult and shame childfree women (by essentially calling them immature) and make them feel unsure of themselves. It rarely works anymore.

Take heart that once you get past 40, those comments tend to slow somewhat.

I think another reason the children-are-the-best-thing-that-can-happen-to-you myth persists is because having kids is such a HUGE and irreversible change, having room for doubt, for the possibility that "it might not work for you" is just unbearably intimidating. When people have kids they need to take a leap of faith that it will make them happy. When feminists go around pointing out the complexity of parenthood, they get shushed because they are challenging the guarantee of "fulfillment." That's too much for a lot of folks to think about.

In general I think the whole "selfish" argument is BS. Do people who have kids really do it for the future economic stability of their population? No. They do it because they guess it will make THEM happy, it will give THEM the lives they want, so THEY will have someone to take care of them when they're old. We all make our life choices for SELFISH reasons, some just have different preferences. And I think the people who call vol-childless people "selfish" are the ones who realized too late that they are not cut out for parenthood, and probably would have had a happier life sans family. Basically, they are jealous.

Wow this is SO ME. I really have never liked kids - I was reading some of my old high school/middle school journals and even in THERE I said "I don't think I need to have kids to be happy". I never sayinever, and maybe my opinion will change, but maybe it won't. I DO know that if I choose to have any, I will only have one and will not use fertility treatments.

I'm very comfortable in this choice but a lot of people seem to think I'm just young and naive for thinking this, or a sour, nasty person for not liking children. They also like to say that since I enjoy "feminine activities" like cooking, baking, knitting and gardening, I'll naturally want to have 4 kids. The thought makes me shudder....

I decided long ago that I didn't want children. Whenever someone asked me the "when are you going to have kids question," my answer was "never." I got more than my share of knowing smiles in return and the "oh you will someday" comments.

Well guess what? I never had kids. I'm now 47 years old and quite happy with the way my life turned out. I'm not old and lonley. I'm not dissatisfied. My life is great. Fortunately, I met my husband, who also had no desire for children, about 18 years ago and we've been selfishly happy ever since.

Yea, we put up with massive shit from our families about our selfishness in not producing the desired male grandchild. So fucking what! I told my father in law that if he really wanted a grandson that bad, I'd spawn it if he'd raise it. That shut him up.

Yes, I admit I'm selfish. I like my clean and quite house. I like that I can do what I want, when I want. I like the freedom of just having adults in the house.

Any maternal feeling I have, I lavish on my dogs. One of whom is Scooter.

I'm sure there have always been just as many women (and men) who didn't want children as there are now. The difference is that access to reliable contraception and abortion are historically very new. I am childless by choice and without reproductive rights I know my life would be very different.

Along these lines, I was once having a conversation with an older male colleague of mine who lives in the suburbs with his wife and children (my nightmare). I told him I can't imagine commuting for hours a day on the train b/c it would interfere with my personal life and he said, "Well, maybe when it's not just you you'll feel different." Ugh it pissed me off so much. Don't assume I'm going to have children just because I'm a woman, and don't assume I'll make the same lifestyle choices as you! It also made me mad b/c his wife stays at home with the rug rats, so the implication that I would be a suburban SAHM was there as well...

I agree that: "Because they don't like them very much" doesn't really cover it. There are lots of people out there who do like children but for various reasons don't want any of their own. Those people may prefer to be great aunts or uncles, or volunteer with children, or work with children (my sister is a teacher and is in no hurry to have children because: "I work with children all day. I don't need to see them when I get home too!")

"I've been saying this same thing for years. Ever since I was young, I knew I didn't want children - EVER. And yet, all kinds of people - from family members to total strangers - keep telling me that I'll change my mind someday, and that I *NEED* to have a baby!"

Ditto. I've had family members tell me that since I first told them (when I was about 3) that I didnt want kids. My family still talks like I'll change my mind saying things like, "here, take this (some family memento) because when you have kids I want them to have it." Its like theyre in denial. Even when I went into my last doctors appointment I asked if I could have my tubes tied (I was about 22). The doctor (whos a woman) asked me why. I told her I didnt want kids, and she acted like she was thrown off course. She asked why, assuming that I was a lesbian and simply thought because of that I couldnt have kids. I told her no, its just that I dont want kids!

(personally I identify as bi, and have a bias for lesbian familys-I just dont want one).

This is where having nieces and nephews comes in handy:) Parents get the grandkids and you get to play with the babeez but hand them back at the end of the day.

I do not want kids and like many here I always get the "you'll change your mind someday" answer or, worse, "Yes you do," which for some reason will send me into the red faster than anything. I think it's because I don't like having people who 1)aren't me or 2)don't know me, assume they know my "true" feelings on the matter.

I am not selfish because I don't want kids. I don't hate kids but really can only take them in small doses.

And my reply now for people who tell me I'll want kids is, "Well, Jesus didn't seem to think they were necessary so why should I? That is, unless you believe some contraversial version of the story." ;)

Usually I'll get stunned stares and some stammering about Jesus having more "important" things to do, to which I reply, "So do I." That usually ends the conversation.

to be honest, i think alot of people act shocked, or say "you will change your mind" or accuse the childless of being selfish (the ones that are the most vehement about it anyway) bc they are actually very insecure about their own choice and may have reservations about what they cannot change. so i think alot of it comes from jealousy and the wish that everyone be as miserable or unhappy as they are. thats not to say that everyone with kids is miserable or unhappy, but i just think there are probably lots that regret their choice (which doesnt mean they dont love their children) and are afraid to just own up to it.

Gopher II: I've heard others say the same thing: when they want their tubes tied, the doctor thinks they're lesbian. Which makes no sense. Lesbian sex can result in pregnancy? It's pretty obvious they haven't thought that one through, probably because there's so much societal pressure to reproduce. I know plenty of people who shouldn't have had kids, but felt that they had to, or that it would fill some void in their soul if they did.

Btw, I plan on having kids at some point, but not until I'm financially and emotionally in the right place. Family members remind me in not-so-subtle ways that my biological clock is ticking, even though I'm only 26. I am so ready for society to stop telling us women that they know what's best for our bodies and lives. Good for those of you who know what you want and are sticking up for it.

That lesbian comment in response to a request to get your tubes tied just seems bizarre to me - I mean, if your reason for not wanting kids is that you're a lesbian, well that just sort of takes care of itself....

Personally, I've had mixed feelings about having kids throughout my life, but I've wanted them less and less as I've gotten older. Now I'm 36 and I know I'll never have them. I love kids, but I also love my life the way it is and being able to do what I want. Kids change everything.

I have to say, however, that I have never felt pressured to have kids. Because of my work and lifestyle, I am surrounded by feminists and cool people. But even in my extended family, I've never been pressured. Of the five sets of cousins in my family, one of us in each set has never had children, and I've never even heard anyone say anything about that.

The one conversation I remember having with my mom about it - probably 10-15 years ago - I said something about her wanting grandchildren. She said that should be completely irrelevant to my decisions since I was the one who would actually have to raise the kids. Now my sister has two fabulous kids so that's been taken care of.

I agree that: "Because they don't like them very much" doesn't really cover it. There are lots of people out there who do like children but for various reasons don't want any of their own.

Interestingly enough, I usually hear "I do like children, but it's just not for me," more so than the reverse, when people who don't want kids make an attempt to explain why they don't want them.

I don't like kids, and I have no shame in saying that. I don't want kids, not because I don't biologically have to fulfill an obligation to procreate, not because there's enough people already, not because the world is fucked up, not because of "carbon footsteps" as one person already mentioned, but because I don't like kids. Have there been moments where I've tolerated, hell probably enjoyed, the presence of one? Sure, but it's those rare, rare occurrences, in which the child in question has possessed an intelligence, temperament, and comprehension way beyond their age. But even then it's just cute for a while, and back to their parent/s they go.

Some people have tried to "shame" me for admitting so by stating the obvious: "but, you were a kid once." No shit, Sherlock, no shit.

Usually I'll get stunned stares and some stammering about Jesus having more "important" things to do, to which I reply, "So do I." That usually ends the conversation.

Oh, nice comeback...noting it down.

UltraMagnus: I am going to pass that comment about Jesus on to some of my friends who don't want a child. :)

Sera –

Free market advocates are usually pro-immigrant, anti-war and want people to succeed. This is not a zero-sum game I am talking about.

And yes, I do think that feminism should be about careers and productivity. I want my daughter to grow up to be a fully independent adult who can pursue her own career, goals and agenda without being told how by the “labor loving left�. I want to her to have the ability to have a family if she sees fit, and when she sees fit. I don’t want her to have to be dependent on a husband or the government. In fact, one of my roles as a parent is to make sure my children (both my daughter and my son) have the skill set to succeed in the open market.

As an atheist, I was amused that you used the religious language to describe supporters of the free market. It is actually the “mixed economy� that supports coercive hierarchies and rich white western men. When business gets into bed with government, it is the poor and minorities who suffer most. One of the reasons I support the free market, in contrast, is that it is the best way of raising living standards across the board.

You stated that: “the labor-loving left is full of fair and rational human beings.� Setting aside the organized crime element, this is just historically inaccurate. It was the labor-loving left that tried to benefit white men at the expense of minorities. The 40-hour work week, 8 hour day and anti-open shop elements of labor were directly meant to shut out non-white laborers. It was the labor loving left that looked the other way while millions starved to death in the communist block, supported eugenics and basically tried to “whiten� the country. These aren’t the policies of the free market and its supporters. Last time I checked colonialism and the like was a result of mercantilism, not free markets and capitalism.

But what burns me up the most is that somehow my belief that the free market is a good thing supposedly disqualifies me from wanting the best for my wife and daughter. As if I would want to see either of them subservient to any person or government. I can understand,and agree with, the opposition to social conservatives, but why should I have to buy into Leftist economic policies to believe that women are people too.

See, the thing is, I like kids. I like talking to them, hearing what they have to say and what they're discovering about the world. When I was younger and went to Take Your Daughter to Work day with my mom, who is an early childhood special ed teacher, one kid latched onto me for the day and talked his pregnant mother into naming the baby after me. I used to babysit and had a damn good time playing dinosaurs and watching Disney movies with the kid.

But I don't want any myself. I don't want another human being depending on me that completely. I'm going into theater. It's going to be hard enough keeping -myself- fed and clothed, let alone another person. I'll probably have to move around. I'm going to have to work a lot to stay alive. So unless I had a partner who somehow had a higher paying job AND more time to spend with the kid, I don't think that would be a great way to grow up. If I were going to be a parent, I'd want to be the kind of parent *my* parents were, and offer the same kind of love and support and wisdom. I can't do that if I'm going to live the life I want. And I'm not going to restructure the course of my life for somebody else. It makes my mom a little sad sometimes, but she's pretty much accepted it, and is looking forward to my brothers having kids someday. They want to, and they'll be awesome dads.

. . . my dad still thinks I'll change my mind. And I don't dare say anything about it to my extended family, because they'd think it terribly selfish of me not to become a baby machine.

I've decided that I probably won't have children either, but instead adopt children. I would have a very hard time actually giving birth to a child when there are so many children being brought into the world by people who don't have the resources/emotional maturity/mental stability to care for them and so they end up in foster care. But even just wanting to adopt children instead of giving birth to them gets me self-satisfied looks from people. You know, that, "Oh, you'll change your mind later" look, or occasionally a comment along the lines of, "If you can have children why would you adopt?" Which PISSES ME OFF.
It's not like I don't WANT children, I just don't want to GIVE BIRTH to children. And STILL people are weirded out. I don't get it...what is this society's hang-up with choosing not to give birth or have babies?

Not having children appeals to me because while people would criticize me, I'd only be criticized for that one thing.

Meanwhile, parents will be constantly told that they're raising their kids wrong, no matter what they do. I know years and years of all those criticisms would hurt me more than the criticism I'd receive when I say I don't want kids.

I chose not to be a teacher, a firefighter, a lawyer. I am not writing a thread about how awful the day to day lives of people in those professions are. (the hands full of chalk, the pain of burns and high cancer rates, the real drudgery of paperwork and protocol.

As far as I can see, any profession, including my chosen one (not talking about parenting here) has its share of drudgery, financial challenges (if you follow a career in the arts say) and awful days dealing with bad bosses, editors or clients.

I am not writing in defense of motherhood. I am writing to say that there is a bent in feminist discourse I find awkward.

I understand that for women it is different: that the choice to be a mother has traditionally been expected, but also under-respected. I understand that childless women are tired of well-meaning and even nasty comments and inquiries and of feeling like they failed expectations. That is what the women in this thread are venting.

No one who doesn't want to have kids should feel obliged to have them. The job is tough and demanding - I have two.

Still, I have noticed as I parent two girls that men and women (often childless) can treat the choice to parent is somehow a feminist failure, or at least a burden on the economy, as attested by the first comment which says that only those who can afford to have children should have them. (now only rich women should have kids.)

I want to say that I think the work woman and men do to raise kids (feminist, world changing kids) to be respected, not in the "that's the work god meant you to do, so give up the rest of your life" manner of respect. But in a way that matters: that there is real support for those who decide to raise kids(access to daycare, incentives, work flexibility), that we aren't parenting in a vacuum, that we don't have to lose so much of our income just because we chose to share our lives with, admittedly, little tyrants (but cute ones to us, at least as cute as the dog Monty is to his (her) owner.

A feminist of my aquaintence said to me that an educated women who decide to raise kids are "wasting their degrees", that they should be using their education to further the feminist cause instead of changing diapers and introducing a new one to the world.

Children are still pretty important to this world - global footprint and overpopulation taken into account. They are essential to community and essential, I think, to understanding oneself. That does not mean that breeding (I am not using contractions because my eight-month-old decided to help type my message and somehow changed the setting to criatian language symbols...) is required of every woman, but that we recognize the importance of children in our society, that we are all a part of a family somehow and that we need to support families (I do not mean this in any right-wing christian way, but allowing women of many different backgrounds to have children without being so harshly penalized financially). Maybe I am thinking of France.

Anyway, the older one, wants my participation in some imaginative drama involving talking donkeys, a death-defying rescue and magic.

That said, I am coming to the end of my mat leave and am looking forward to more of my life not focusing on day to day demands of children, while my husband stays home while juggling part-time freelancing.

We should not pretend parenting is easy or pretty or not full of days where someone does puke in your purse. But I want to feel respected for my choice as well...

"my formerly sane friends"

Commenting that people who have children lose their sanity/interest/ability to hold a conversation/ambition are just as rude and infuriating as comments that the child-free are selfish. Both types of comments come from insecure people trying to make themselves feel better about their choices.

RE: being able to afford a child:

I wouldn't buy a car if I couldn't afford the gas, maintenance, and insurance. Why would I have a child if I couldn't afford the food, clothing, and childcare?

wanderwoman and janet:

what you said!!!

"I wouldn't buy a car if I couldn't afford the gas, maintenance, and insurance. Why would I have a child if I couldn't afford the food, clothing, and childcare?"

EXACTLY! How is it that people are getting " only rich people should have kids" from "people who can't afford children shouldn't have them?" Being able to afford children isn't necessarily the same as being rich. My aunt and my mother have been teachers for about ten years, so while neither one of them are rich, both of them can afford the children that they have without a whole lot of difficulty.

wanderwoman: I completely agree with you.

My mother, a lifelong feminist, has never worked more than part-time since she's had kids (although she is a pre-school teacher, and most of those jobs are part-time). A lot of people find that to be incompatible with being a feminist, which she (and I) have never understood. My mother has always felt that it was her life's calling to raise and teach kind, aware, mature kids (and make sure her chldren were feminists!) That doesn't mean she isn't a feminist, or doesn't think that women should have full time careers and kids or no kids if they want, it simply means she wants kids for herself.
While I think most people on this blog, and the majority of feminists, agree that women should have choices, and that any choice they make in terms of childbearing, careers and otherwise is valid, I think there is still a minority of feminists and mainstream society, that looks down on women who decide to raise children (just as there are those who look down upon women who choose the reverse.) Feminism is about choices, and making any of those choices shouldn't diminish your feminist cred.

wanderwoman: on point!

feminism is about liberation, right? why replace one set of judgements and strictures with yet another?

brunette, that's mad funny...

"I don't hate kids but really can only take them in small doses. "

Exactly. I worked at a summer camp, and I loved the kids - but it was really great to hand them off to the counselors at the end of the day. I think that if I were to have a kid, I'd end up getting so frustrated and annoyed that I wouldn't give them the care they need.

My best friend is planning on having two kids, and we're both hoping to live within the same geographic area. So, she's decided that I will teach her kids to ride and I can do the whole "teaching little girl to ride and taking her to horse shows thing", and at the end of the day, they're hers.

And between my best friend and five siblings, I think I'll end up with PLENTY of children to be around, if I so choose.

If I want something that's messy, eats it's head off, is expensive, is always requiring new shoes, brings in plenty of medical bills, always needs something new and shiny.... I think I'll get a horse.

... except that buying a car and having a child are not the same. Unlike buying a car, having children - or not having them - is a human right. That's what "choice" is all about. I am not wild about people having lots of children that they cannot raise (not usually a matter of money), but people do have a right to have children. They do not have a right to have cars.

Secondly, we all benefit or are harmed by the development of children. So, we might want to be more supportive of parents than people who want cars. For example, society can (and should in my opinion) provide childcare, education, healthcare, etc. We would all benefit from lower crime and more productive members of society (and lower long-term costs). We could take more responsibility for children as a society and not simply put all that responsibility on parents who "can afford it."

Check out www.sistersong.net for more about reproductive justice.

Buying a car is a choice. Having a child is a choice.
See the similarity there?

So is the implication that some of you (Emma etc.,) are making that because I'm a teacher whose monthly pay check equals the monthly cost of child care, that I shouldn't have kids, while perhaps Brittany Spears should be able to? I don't buy it.

As feminists, we should help foster healthy women, children and families by providing for the welfare of future generations. There are people in this world who want to have children-- they should be allowed to have them, and should be supported in their decision. There are people in this world who do not want to have children. They too have the right to their own decision, and should be supported.

However, I can't but help getting this weird vibe that some of you think that society revolves around those of us with children. Perhaps if you'd ever had the experience of changing a diaper on a dirty bathroom floor because a changing table isn't available, or been scowled at for having the audacity to bring a family member out of your house, or tried to navigate unplowed sidewalks with a stroller, you'd begin to see that the world doesn't actually revolve around parents.

Bottom line: the problem is neither parents nor those that don't wish to have children, it's the self-satisfied libertarians who feel that their own personal wealth exempts them from having to contribute to society.

Wanderwoman,

I find your taking issue with anti-mother feminists on this board to be really, really odd. I say that because, without exception, everyone here seems to have gone out of their way to assert that though they've chosen to remain childless they respect your right to have children if you so choose. What more do you want? As a privileged class in this society (i.e. as a mother, as a chosen parent), my guess is that you've gotten used to that privilege and the praise and social reward that's heaped upon you for having made the reproductive decisions you've made and are a little out of your element when others say simply, "not for me." You end your post by saying, "I want to be respected for my choice as well..." which seem to be a response to attacks against you that were never even leveled to begin with.

You'll forgive everyone here if they haven't written comments that wax philosophical about the beauty and wonder that is motherhood, but the article was not about motherhood. It was about making the choice to forgo motherhood. And if you feel that because women here have outlined their reasons for remaining childless, they somehow project those same values onto your life or regard you with disdain, well that's pretty reductive and insulting. The reason we're all coming together to talk about the nuances and judgments associated with not having children is because it's something that's rarely discussed and understood even less. This is article provides a rare forum to discuss it. No one hates you. We're just not focused on you right now. Pretending we're anti-mother just because we're not talking about your specific experience is like men who say "What about the Penis Monologues! Feminists hate men!" No, we're just not talking about them at that specific moment.

Finally, Spirina said:
"While I think most people on this blog, and the majority of feminists, agree that women should have choices, and that any choice they make in terms of childbearing, careers and otherwise is valid, I think there is still a minority of feminists and mainstream society, that looks down on women who decide to raise children."

And I agree that it's wrong that a minority of a minority of people don't respect your right to have children (so, what, like seven people are really upset about your choice to have kids...). The rest of us here are talking about a majority of the majority of people who don't understand or respect our reproductive decisions. A group that you too, Wanderwoman, seem to fall into as I noted your lovely little lecture about how I'm clearly incapable of "understanding [my]self" since I don't have children. Awesome.

Crystalee:
As a privileged class in this society (i.e. as a mother, as a chosen parent), my guess is that you've gotten used to that privilege and the praise and social reward that's heaped upon you for having made the reproductive decisions you've made...

I know that wasn't directed at me, but as a lesbian parent, I have to say, I haven't really felt any gain in privilege since having my daughter.

Look, there is a very important point being made here: women should not feel that they are required to have children. There are lots of good reasons to not have them, starting with flat out not wanting to. It's disgusting that society often overlooks that point while pushing the norm of woman as mom.

However, I think this discussion is veering towards "this is my decision, and this is why it's better than yours." Having been talked down to by a patriarchal society on a daily basis, I can't abide by that.

@ janet

When I referred to my "formerly sane friends," I was not judging them in any way. In my effort to toss together my thought, some of my lighthearted tone was lost.

Several friends of mine joke that they've lost their sanity over repeated viewings of cartoons and their kids' tendencies to sing jingles, etc. ad nauseum. I didn't intend to infer that I found them insane, I was riffing on conversations where they joke about losing their sanity due to their kids' media habits.

My friend's reason for not having children with her soon to be husband is that she "is really into snowboarding right now". It's my favorite reason for not having kids ever.

The biggest sign to me that sexism exists in this area is women automatically defend their decision not to have children. I've seen that displayed here and in many other forums. I've heard every excuse from "I'm in school right now and my boyfriend sucks" to "I think it's better for the environment not to have children". Honestly we as women don't owe anyone an explanation, it's our body, it's our choice, it's our decision.

I decided to have a child at 19, when I was just starting college and had only been dating my boyfriend for 6 months. I don't feel like I owe anyone an explanation for choosing to have a child or for making the decision not to have more. My pregnancy wasn't planned, but I made the decision that was right for me and right for my relationship.

Oh..and the "if you have money to have them" is stupid. How many people have cars, houses, services that put them into debt? Does anyone buy anything with cash anymore? Not really, so why should people being insulted for having children that cause they to go into debt or ask for some help from the government. Businesses get money to help them stay afloat, why not american families?

eastsidekate,

Families with children are essentially subsidized. Income tax relief, lower per-person-cost of health care for families, state-sponsored insurance for children of low-income families, etc. I understand that it's still a HUGE expense to be undertaken by the parents, but when I make expensive lifestyle decisions, I have to pay for ALL of it myself. The only comparable thing I can think of are the student loans for which I did not qualify. So, yeah, that's the privilege I'm talking about.

And once again, there's this sense that the conversation is "veering towards 'this is my decision, and this is why it's better than yours.'" Which is weird because it hasn't been said or insinuated by anyone! I think that sometimes when people say, "cool. You made a decision, and I'm going to make a different one," people get offended. But frankly, I do think that my decision is better than yours. FOR ME. And that's the key point that the mothers here seem to be mistaking for something else.

Actually, I have very little debt and I live my life in a manner that allows me to keep it that way. If someone wants to go into debt, whether for a car or a child or whatever, that is a personal decision.

The childfree Villagers are already paying what I consider to be our fair share via income and school taxes.

Children are not a necessity and, therefore, if you want them, you get to pay for them. It really isn't a difficult concept.

"Oh..and the "if you have money to have them" is stupid. How many people have cars, houses, services that put them into debt? Does anyone buy anything with cash anymore? Not really, so why should people being insulted for having children that cause they to go into debt or ask for some help from the government. Businesses get money to help them stay afloat, why not american families?"

I'm afraid you need to learn the difference between good debt and bad debt.

Also, people need a place to live, and some people need cars. If its something they need but they don't have the money, then they have no choice but to go in debt, so I don't think that's a good comparasion. And if they're buying a car or house that is more expensive than they need and can afford, I frown upon that as well, because its financially irresponsible. When you have kids and you can't afford them, it's not only financially irresponsible, but heck, I think one could argue that it's selfish that you consider your WANT for kids to be more important than whether or not you can actually afford what those kids NEED.

And I don't typically feel too much pressure to have kids, except when I had a boyfriend who wanted kids, and wanted them to be biologically his, when I was pretty sure that if I ever did have kids, I'd want to adopt. He kept talking about compromise, like having one kid that would be biologically his and adopting the rest, but I told him there was no compromise about it, if I decided I didn't want to carry a child then I wasn't going to. Then he got all sentimental about how nice it would be to have to take care of his pregnant wife, and I nearly puked.

Besides that, the only person I can think of off the top of my head that pressures me to have children is my younger sister, because she wants nieces and nephews, and she can't count on our brother to ever have kids. But that's ok because its not like she's saying that its wrong of me to not want kids. And it amuses me because she says stuff like, "You don't even have to get married if you don't want to, you can adopt!" Which makes me glad that she's accepting of non-traditional families.

Buying a car is a choice. Having a child is a choice.
See the similarity there?

Oh, well, thanks for clearing that up. Clearly, all choices are equal, and mitigating circumstances, or differences in the type of choice being made are completely irrelevent.

It's like how choosing to take the ambulence to the hospital during a medical emergency is a choice! I mean, you could always drive yourself, or have somebody else drive you, or drag yourself, or take public transit. If you can't afford the medical bills, well, then you just shouldn't take the ambulence. Or get the treatment. Or get hurt in the first place.

According to the USDA, a single child, two parent household could expect to spend between $13k and $14k a year in 2006. According to the Census Bureau, the *median* income in 2006 was a hair over $48k. That's pre-tax. Take out taxes and housing, and 14k starts to look like a pretty damned big chunk of a your yearly income. And if you're in the +20% of the population making less than $24k a year... well... I guess those poor people just shouldn't have kids, right?

Please.

This is the last I'll say, because I don't want to derail this thread any further away from Ann's excellent OP than I already have. What I and others have taken exception to is many posters' (crystalee, Emma, prof/activist) yes, insinuations, that society somehow rewards women for having children by bestowing upon them massive amounts of privilege. Lower per-person-cost of health care? I'm not sure that holds for queer parents.

IMO, society punishes women who choose not to have children by looking down on them, yet provides far too little to help to those women who do decide to have children. We're all losing out, while men are free to have fulfilling lives outside the home without having to answer to society on whether they have kids or how they care for them.

Children are a feminist issue, because society expects women to have them, and do all the work of caring for them, at a high personal price. Pretty much every woman on this board, mother or not, suffers in one way or another at the hands of the dogma that children are "women's business".

__
And speaking of privilege.... there are lots of reasons people end up in debt, and not all of them are the result of "personal decisions." Medical bills, anyone? On the job discrimination?

I get the "selfish" and "you'll change your mind" comments as well. When I tell people that I don't like children and that I like my life just fine the way it is I'm told that my priorities will change once I have a child. Um, HELLO! I like my priorities just the way they are. That's when the "selfish" thing comes in. To that I usually ask people that give me all kinds of b.s. reasons for having a child why they don't adopt. Isn't it selfish to want to bring another body into the world when there are so many children that need loving homes? Really folks, what's so special about your genes that you need to reproduce?

Punishing children for being born to poor families is unfair and foolish.
We will pay for children either by providing them with what they need now, or we can wait until they grow up and become criminals. I'd rather pay now.

For me, the choice to have children would seem a lot more selfish than the choice to not have them. My family's full of depression, anxiety disorders, suicides, etc. I've lived with depression and anxiety issues for the past 15 years. I really don't want to gamble that my child would be free of such things, and I don't want my child to have the burden of a psychologically unhealthy family. It's just not worth it to me.

I don't look down on everyone those who has children, but I do look down on the ones who have children and refuse to change their zany lifestyles to take the kids' needs into account (which also often impacts other people, not just the kids, but it does the most damage to the kids.)

I also resent the ones who think they should be treated better than I should simply because they have had kids. I know I'll ruffle at least a few feathers with this, but just having kids is not an accomplishment. Raising them well is.

Wander, Crystal, et al.

WAIT. Let's not argue amongst ourselves. Its really easy to get defensive and say thing that to someone else might sound as if we do not respect each others choices. I think that this is especially true with issues that cut right to the heart of womanhood, independence, and patriarchal expectations. I know I start to get a little bristle-y at the topic, even when I know the people involved aren't deriding me. So before we draw our swords, let's try to remember that at least in this space we can expect our choices will (by the vast majority of people) be respected.

It's disappointing to hear so many people, particularly progressives, say that they hate kids. Since when is it OK to hate on an entire group of people, particularly a group of people as profoundly disempowered as children? Kids are individual people. Some of them are fantastic, and some of them are assholes, just like adults.

wanderwoman - no one here is denigrating mothers. parenting is important and respect the choice to do it. i agree wtih crystalee's response.

further, your comment about it being in everyone's best interest, parent or not, to help and encourage the development of children is to some extent true. i'm very interested in what is often referred to as the "work-life balance", and that includes for many people balancing career with raising children. i absolutely think this country has a long way to go in that area and it is imperative to achieving anything like true gender equality.

anyway, i've never been too fond of children and consider them completely uninteresting until they can carry on a conversation. i'm content to be the cool aunt and play with other people's kids until they become obnoxious and i can send them home. i'm discovering more and more female friends who feel the same way but are reluctant to admit it for fear of those oh-so-condescending smiles and the "you'll change your mind SOMEday" remarks. it's nice to know i'm not alone.

American "families" already receive financial assistance from the government in the form of all those credits and deductions they get on their tax returns. The childfree? Nope. We don't get those, which means we're already subsidizing American "families." We pay more taxes already. How much more would you have us pay? Should we be put into financial hardship to support the personal choices others have made? Why...especially when we may have made the childfree choice partially because we could not afford to raise a child? And then you want to bleed us dry financially to support others' children?

Medical bills? With the exception of elective procedures, they are a necessity.

Job discrimination? I don't think anyone chooses to be discriminated against.

Having children? That's clearly a choice.

"I think that this is especially true with issues that cut right to the heart of womanhood, independence, and patriarchal expectations."

Interesting. I've only had one man ever get pissy with me about my choice to remain childfree. All the others (and there have been a LOT of them) have been women...more accurately, mothers.

Whew, finally someone said it. I have passed my mid 30s and have realized that I just do not want to have kids. Kids are a lot of money and responsibility, and I am just not ready for that commitment yet and not sure if I ever will be. I respect anyone who decides to have kids that can take care of them...but it's just not for me.

"RE: being able to afford a child:

"I wouldn't buy a car if I couldn't afford the gas, maintenance, and insurance. Why would I have a child if I couldn't afford the food, clothing, and childcare?"

To stick it to The Man, outbreed the people in power, obey patriarchs, and/or blame anyone else but yourself for your children being where you chose to have children?

Emma, I've had the same experience with my choice not to have children. My male friends don't even mention my childlessness at all; women, however, even my close friends, express puzzlement and often derision at my decision. Odd.

I do find interesting the notion that women shouldn't explain themselves and their reproductive decisions. And while I whole-heartedly agree that I don't OWE anyone an explanation for what I choose to allow to go on inside my own body -- and later in my home and family -- I don't think that makes it wrong or somehow latently influenced by sexism to discuss here the reasons I've chosen to forgo a traditional family structure. Simply saying 'I'm not gonna have kids cuz I don't wanna' is fine -- no one is OWED a further explanation, but I think that any well-reasoned human being does have more reasons than that. Hell, I have a further explanation for what I chose to eat for dinner. And I should feel free to share it or not share it as I please.

Coming to a place like this and saying, 'I like having the freedom to travel' or 'I don't much like children' isn't necessarily being "defensive" as much as it is saying, 'I have reasons for doing or not doing things because I am a fully actualized human being.' And I find it interesting to hear about other women's stories and the ways that they prioritize their lives. This would be a really boring thread if we all just said "I don't want kids" "I do want kids" "I don't" "I do" It's a discussion, not a survey. And I think it's great that women feel like they can come here and be open about why they've ordered their lives in they ways that they have.

I would like to see women's - including poor women's - choice to have children supported as vehemently by feminists as their right not to have or bear children. But putting that aside...

We're already paying for kids who are not supported while they're growing up. We just choose to put that money into prisons and sending them off to war than providing support to families and parents. The latter would be cheaper and would provide a much greater benefit - both financially and otherwise.

Secondly, I think we all agree that getting pregnant is not always completely a choice. Unless you're advocating forced abortion, then having a child may not be 100% a choice either. Not to mention that many poor women cannot get abortions even if they want them.

I don't understand what poor women in this situation are supposed to do.

As a femminist, I find the "don't have them if you can't afford them" bullshit a little, I don't know....Bullshitty.

If women across the country, of every socioeconomic background had access to birth control, heatlth care, sex fucking ed, let alone when or whe