I actually didn't get it at first(being that I'm tiny breasted). What I find makes it really disturbing is that they look like they are crying, making them look like battered women, not "just" hit in the face with there own boobs.

Kelly, I'm not flat-chested and I didn't get it.

My not-Pam Anderson, but relatively busty self would never associate images of crying, bruised, beaten women and the "humor" of big boobs possible injuring one while running.

Boobs, don't beat women; assholes do--misogynistic assholes.

Way to go "largest running store" in Canada--you just lost half your customer base.

Seriously, the assholes who came up with this add need some serious counseling.

If those things are supposed to be humorous then they've comepletely missed the boat. The dark background automatically made me think something was wrong, and then I read Vanessa's description and my brain did not compute.

this is sick. plain old sick. perfect example of a pathetic group of male adults (if you could even call them "adults") who are creatively desperate and suck at creating advertisements. Not only should whoever came up with this ad campaign be fired they should be excommunicated from the advertising industry and enrolled in some human decency courses.

It's also plagiarism. The same add idea was used in the UK a few years ago, IIRC.

Yikes. At first when I saw the pic, I thought the woman was supposed to be a kickboxer or some such, and I thought it was actually kind of badassed. Knowing that it's specifically a running store, the insinuation is clearly different and not cool.

I don't know that we can necessarily assume that this was definitely made only by men though. There are plenty of women out there who don't understand why this sort of thing is offensive & harmful, and some of them may even be in the advertising field.

I also didn't get it until I read the explanation. Like, I at first thought they were women boxers or something like that! It's also irrelevant to women - I don't know about you guys, but when I think about sports bras, I am thinking about how to avoid my boobs falling around my navel and bouncing painfully, not about how to keep them from hitting my chin. That's probably why I didn't even get the ad in the first place.

And I agree with someone who said the way the photography was shot was what made it seem offensive. If the women were outside and had clearly been running, or at the gym on an elliptical, it would make more sense and look less like domestic violence. But the whole concept is dumb anyway. They should have done a focus group - no group of women would have thought this was a good idea.

I didn't get it at all.

Is it funny? No, it's not.
Is it clever. No, it's not.
Breasts hitting women in the face because they are athletic and like to run? Not funny. Or clever.
At all.

I'm a runner and this does not make me want to buy running clothes from them.

Images of strong, proud women looking hot, fit and well proportioned in running clothes make me want to buy products...not them having black eyes, busted mouths and broken noses. I want to look and feel good. I want to see the good the products do not see something imaginary that doesn't happen. Stupid. Not funny. Where's the ad for jock straps that prevents guys from being bruised on the abdomen?

Ew! That's incredibly unsettling--not really clever or funny at all.

The fact that anyone finds images of beaten women funny - regardless of the reason - makes me even more concerned about the state of humanity than most of the stuff I read on here.

I don't know if I ever could have figured this out without Vanessa's description. You see, I have very large breasts, and there is no way they would ever be able to hit me in the face while I was running. It just doesn't work that way. The first place my mind went was to a woman who was being beaten up having to run away, Like some kind of twisted reason to always wear a sports bra because "you never know".

Well, if they were bloodied up from some type of sparring, the ad wouldn't be trying to be funny.

Like many of you so far, i didn't really get it at all... I don't think it's physiologically possible for boobalas, no matter how large, to cause a black eye...? Right? ;)

I love Heather Nan's comment that "Boobs don't beat women; assholes do--misogynistic assholes."

I think they're funny. But then I'm a runner who wears a 38DD bra normally (I'm even bigger now that I'm pregnant.) I've made many jokes over the years about how I'd give myself a black eye if I ran in a less-than-adequate sports bra. Enells are the best invention in sports equipment in the last 30 years, in my opinion.

The ads weren't a good idea, but I don't think the company or ad agency meant anything bad with them. Context is important, too.

Blue Pencils- I might agree with you if the ads didn't, to me, look remarkably like spoofs of several common anti-domestic violence campaign posters...

http://osocio.org/images/uploads/act-kate.jpg

http://voxexmachina.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/benetton3.jpg

These ads remind me a lot of the ads posted around town for the Windy City Rollers. They are the main roller derby league in Chicago. I can't find the ads online, but they are really disgusting portraits of girls with black eyes or bleeding noses. I remember one with the blood running down the girl's nose into her mouth and she's licking it. Ah, here it is! It's a really disgusting objectification of women and violence and I feel like that's the way a lot of roller derby leagues present themselves these days. That they are tough broads who are there to kick each other's asses and hurt each other. I don't know why that is considered entertainment.

When the revival first started, I thought it was a way to be active, stay healthy, and promote female bonding. But now it seems to be about glamorizing violence and injuries by and on these women.

The Windy City Rollers has a page on their web site dedicated to pictures of their injuries!!

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but these ads reminded me of the ones I've seen here for roller derby and the overall uneasiness they give me.

While I "get" it-the images of the women are incredibly disturbing, and this makes me want to NEVER shop there, ever.

It would've been funnier, and more light-hearted, if there was a red mark in the shape of a boob. These just invoke anti-domestic violence campaigns.

"I think they're funny. But then I'm a runner who wears a 38DD bra normally"

I wear a 38 DD too and I use an elliptical trainer. It's just not possible for boobs, even DD's, to fly far enough up to hit a woman in her own face. Yes, they'll bounce, but not that high UP, due to gravity.

I agree that a red mark in the shape of a boob would have been funny. But these photos are shot in a way to make it look as if the women have been beaten, and yes, they do look like they have been crying, which makes the ads disturbing.

This just pisses me off. It's so far away from reality, and the photos absolutely DO look like photos of battered women, which should NEVER be made light of.

I don't CARE if the people who came up with this campaign "meant anything by it". They need to grow the fuck up, and NOW. If they didn't realize why these ads are offensive, then that's really, really sad that there are people out there that oblivious and tactless.

wtf it seriously took me a few minutes to get that. talk about an ineffective, ridiculous ad that was clearly made by men with absolutely no idea of how female anatomy works.

Fucking fuck. These are horrifying. What the hell making "jokes" like this?!

You can email them at shop@runningfree.com, this is what I sent them.



"I saw your ad campaign reading "Support bras, now available" here: http://feministing.com/archives/008656.html. You should read the post and the comments and see how these ads make women feel.

I'm a woman who has to use a sportsbra when I exercise, and I know from experience, that it is simply not realistic for breasts, even large ones, to fly far enough UP and hit a woman in the face hard enough to cause the types of injuries shown in those photos. Yes, breasts bounce, but due to gravity, not that far UPWARD.

The photography is also disturbing - the dark background and the fact that all of the women look like they have been crying, and the fact that realistically, NONE of those injuries could possibly have resulted from any of the women getting hit in the face by their own breasts - these photos look like pictures of battered women, and that should NEVER be trivialized.

I don't know who came up with this campaign idea, but they need to grow up and leave the 13 year old boy humor behind and start thinking of their female customers as intelligent people who deserve respect. They also need some sensitivity training. I read the ad and looked at the photo and did not understand why the woman was injured and looked like she had been crying. It did not make sense to me, and I was trying to figure out why on earth your campaign would use photos of battered women for sports bras.

I am disappointed that your company has shown such poor judgement. I think these ads should be pulled immediately, an apology should be issues for the horribly poor taste that your company showed in using these ads, and you should donate some proceeds to battered women's shelters."

Even if it were possible for someone's boobs to hit them in the face, they wouldn't leave injuries like that unless their boobs happened to be made out of FISTS.

These are horrible. I thought it was some kind of weird ad for abused women.

I think it designed by men. No woman I know associates bouncing boobs with their face. It hurts when my breasts are bouncing downward. But when you see slow-mo's of women running there seems to be a greater focus on them moving upward.

I think few people who say horribly offensive things actually mean to horribly offend people. That's why its so hard to get them to stop. To quote my childhood: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Maybe I'm just not up on the cultural perspective of Canadians. But looking at the image, I was sure it was an ad against domestic violence. THe thought of breasts causing anything like that is just beyond me. If you have to explain it, it's just not funny.

Those photos look JUST like a public service ad against domestic violence. The women look defeated and sad. How is that supposed to make women want to buy from them? Whoever the fuck thought this was a good way to market to women doesn't deserve his job.

Ten to one these ads were written by men. And not just because 90 percent of the creatives in advertising are men, because only men would think this would be funny or effective advertising. (I am in advertising.)

I don't think any of the ad's creators (men or women) actually believe that breasts can produce black eyes like this. The ad's offensiveness has nothing to do with realism or lack thereof.

The only reason why I got the "joke" was because of a similar joke I remember hearing sometime around 3rd grade, the point of which was something about how Dolly Parton gets black eyes when she goes jogging.

Besides everything that everyone else has pointed out as evidence that these were clearly intended as a parody of domestic abuse ads, I think the emotions in the models' faces suggest it too. You could almost see a serious caption below saying something like "This is the face of domestic abuse."

They 100% look like battered women. At first glance I thought it was a 'battered women need support' kind of thing. But no, it's 'wear a sports bra or you'll be battered.' Ewww.

Yeah, to clarify, I *get* it -- of course it's not meant to be realistic; it's meant to be silly. But I don't find them effective nor silly, just kind of gross. It's a little too over the top for me to feel anything but "ugh" when I look at them.

Wow, I never would have gotten from these photos that breasts are supposed to have done this. I have never heard of breasts having anything remotely approaching enough force to cause that kind of damage.

Makes me glad I didn't spring for that "Boobs of Steel" workout video.

Oh... I thought they were seliing sports bras because they would come in handy while running from abusers. "Buy this support bra! It will keep your boobs down, so you can outrun an attacker, unlike this women!"
Clearly, this ad did not do its job, not to mention its extremely poor taste.

Absolutely agreed. 100% ineffective, 100% not silly/funny, 100% offensive on account of making light of domestic abuse.

I was addressing earlier comments which were criticizing the ads for being unrealistic on top of everything else. I agree with the "everything else", but I worry that the company will pay less attention to complaints which include a specific gripe about realism, because that criticism is, I think, pretty much irrelevant.

I also give you 100-to-1 odds that the creators were men. I just don't think it's a foregone conclusion. After all, if we could take it as granted that all women were conscientious feminists, they'd all VOTE feminist, and we wouldn't be cursed with the continued erosion of Roe v. Wade OR Hillary Duff.

I feel embarrassed for those women who don’t wear bras and have lop-sided boobs, or malformed boobs, or low hanging floppy-hippy boobs, or tiny chocolate-chips-on-a-cookie-sheet boobs. If you don’t have nice boobs, please wear a bra… in fact… wear a jacket because you’re just embarrassing all of as and demean us all as women. Boobs are nature’s way of showing men that we are fertile and capable of having children, so if you’re not trying to attract a man… wear a bra! Or a plaid shirt if you’re all the way on the other side of the spectrum. LOL! Joke :)

Yeah, not cool. When I saw that, I thought "Is that supposed to be a sports injury...?"

I make comments all the time about how I'm going to get two black eyes if my sports bra isn't strong enough, so I'm not inclined to be offended here.

Maybe the problem is that it's not obvious enough just by looking at the ads that their injuries are boob related. They probably could have done it without making the wounded look like beating victims, but I think the idea behind them is hilarious.

Possibly because I wear a G cup.

ok, a few things:

1. whether boob-injury is possible or not [of course it's not], you CAN NOT explain away the fact that these images, in almost every woman who has commented here, provoked scary domestic violence ideas. i don't care what the intent was, the result was women feeling creeped out and that's not ok.

2. clearly, this campaign was made by men who didn't get how fucking horrifying these images would be to women. seriously, imagine you are a woman who is in or has recently gotten out of an abusive relationship and you see THIS while walking down the street. my god. how could this not have occurred to these guys?

3. even if you can get past all the creepy violence stuff [and i don't blame you if you can't], there's also a bit of an underlying message about women not being built for sports. like women aren't able to perform athletically because of those CRAZY boobs getting in the way. i guess we should all cut them off like amazons, or else just stay home. right fellas? yeah.

I think few people who say horribly offensive things actually mean to horribly offend people. That's why its so hard to get them to stop.

I don't get why people think they have to have intended to be hurtful in order for someone to feel justifiably hurt, or deserve an apology and a promise to try not to be hurtful in the future. If I am taking off my jacket and accidentally smack you in the face in the process, I will apologize! I won't say, "well, I didn't MEAN to hit you in the face, so you have no right to feel pained by it; obviously you're just hyper-sensitive!" But that's exactly what people do when the injury they cause is emotional rather than physical.

FWIW, I too could not figure out the point of these ads until it was explained. I thought maybe they were telling us about some program where money from the support bras would go to support battered women or something. You know, like buying pink-ribbon stuff that supports breast cancer research.

Add me to the list of people who didn't get this at first. I really did think it was an ad for something related to domestic violence. The teeny tiny print doesn't really help much, does it?

These adds clearly are not funny...the "boobs of steel" comment, however, is hilarious. I was stiffling my laughter while sitting at work.

Besides the fact that the point of these adds is not immediately apparent (I am happy that I am not the only one who didn't get it at first), when I finally did get it I was too horrified at the images to find any humor in them. As an avid runner I will never buy from this company.

I'm a Canadian and I live in the same city as this store and I've never heard of it until now.

These ads are awful for all the reasons people have posted here. I'm never going to shop there.

And they do look very similar to a powerful ad campaign in Toronto.

http://www.ernestines.ca/index.php?pid=32#

Even if the runner's boobs could hit her in the face, how would they smack her square in the middle of the nose? Black eyes, maybe, but her nose?

These ads are dreadful.

When I saw just the first one, and having been told it was a sports ad of some sort, I thought maybe she was a boxer. But I couldn't really figure out how the ad made sense at all. So I clicked through to look at the other ads, and all I could think is, you need a sports bra to run from domestic violence? I had to move to the comments here to read what the concept is supposed to be.

Which even if I didn't find the concept totally offensive, I would still find these ads inexcusably poorly executed. The ads don't sell what they're supposed to sell. That's just supremely stupid on top of all the other issues.

I'm another one who didn't get it. After reading the copy and thinking about it, I thought it was trying to get at support as in a support group. Like a battered women's support group. These are really dumb ads.

And Suzie, you said, "If you don’t have nice boobs, please wear a bra… in fact… wear a jacket because you’re just embarrassing all of as and demean us all as women." Errrrr, I disagree. I don't find lopsided boobs demeaning. Just because a person doesn't have "nice" boobs, (whatever that might mean) doesn't mean they should feel shamed into hiding them from the world. I think you were trying to make a joke, but it wasn't funny.

I didn't get this at first either - and I have ridiculously large breasts. Maybe it could have been cute and funny if the violence was more silly and cartoonish (or like somebody said above, more like getting hit in the face by a breast might actually look). But I get the feeling that the point of the ad is that we're supposed to have the initial reaction that it's domestic violence, then see the tagline and say: "Ohhh, it's her breasts that did that, haha." That's why the tagline is so small, you're not supposed to notice it at first. I saw people on the other sites saying: "This has nothing to do with domestic violence" and I think they're wrong - I think the comparison to domestic violence is part of the joke.

According to the site Colleen & Vanessa got this from, the responsible ad agency is DDB Toronto. The president's email is david.leonard@ddbcanada.com if anyone's interested...

I'm frankly a little surprised... I understand that this shows women with facial bruising. However, there's no implication that the bruising came from abuse. And not only that, but being a VERY busty woman, I can attest to the fact that most people do not respect the pain that comes from athleticism. It literally hurts. Yes, I have had my breasts hit me in the face while playing volleyball, football, basketball AND baseball. And it hurts. Not to mention the fact that I am proud of the dedication to the game that I show - which often leads to bruises. Could it possibly be that the posters here are offended out of context?

Will this opinion just be pushed aside?

Thanks, Kua. See the note at the top of the post; we've been contacted by Running Free, the store the ad was used for, to make clear that they did NOT use these horrific ads.

Oh - I get it.

I thought the gist was supposed to be something along the lines of showing how "serious" girls were about sports, just like boys.

While stupid, my assumption was vastly more intelligent than what the truth turns out to be - lol!

I got a response from "Running Free":

Hello Kerry,
my name is Nick Capra I am the owner of Running Free. Those horrendous images were pitched to us by an ad agency. When we saw them our first reaction was "you've got to be kidding me". We will never and have never used those pathetic excuses for marketing. Our reaction to them was as yours was and how they got out on to the internet is beyond me. I'm sorry they did and I'm sorry you and who ever else is distressed by them has to waist their time and energy thinking about them.

Please feel free to contact me if you would like to speak about this further.

Nick Capra

Forget the ads. What freaks me out is the possibility that the largest running store in Canada has only recently started selling support bras!

I'm frankly a little surprised... I understand that this shows women with facial bruising. However, there's no implication that the bruising came from abuse.

There's no implication of where the violence came from at all, but those injuries aren't very consistent with sports injuries- particularly not the middle picture. If you've seen pictures of domestic abuse victims, these photographs are disturbingly similar.

Will this opinion just be pushed aside?

Saying things like that is more likely to get other people's backs up than just disagreeing or questioning, because it comes across as a little bit antagonistic- why would you think that it would be pushed aside?

missruthie,

If you read all of the comments above, you'll see there there is actually a fair amount of contextual evidence which suggests that the ads are designed to make the viewer believe, at first glance, that they relate to domestic abuse. It's not just over-sensitive people looking for a reason to get upset.

Also, it seems unlikely that the ads are actually pitched at people who, like yourself, have legitimate reason to fear from breast-related injury of this sort, because the models to not appear to be sufficiently well-endowed for that to come into play. I realize that they don't actually show you their breasts, but given the headshots I don't think it's likely.

That's just fucking weird. As someone who practices muay thai at first it just looked like a reference to competitive martial arts - but her facial expression was horror rather than joy or even pain so my first reaction was WTF?

When I saw the rest of them though... That is just awful. They look like domestic violence ads, nothing else. *gag*

Please don't boycott this store for an ad they never ran. DDB has now been contacting sites asking them to take this down.

Yes, people, obviously a breast is not going to fly up and hit you in the eye hard enough to bruise no matter how hard you're running. That's why it's a fucking JOKE. I still think the idea is funny. I would have never approved the ads myself because of they obviously can be interpreted in more than one way. Possibly if the models were smiling and looking rueful. (Although I'm sure someone would then complain that it was making the women look complicit in their supposed abuse.) What were those ads years ago where the models had black eyes or whatever because they were willing to fight rather than give up their...cigarettes? (I can't remember what the product was.) It was obvious that the model hadn't been abused. If the models were more along those lines, and made the copy a lot larger and more obvious, it wouldn't be so offensive. Anyway, the point is moot, the ads were never run. Still, I'm entitled to my own opinion, and still I think it's funny. And, yes, I'm just as much a feminist as any of you. Also it's sad that I feel like I have to append that.

Still, I'm entitled to my own opinion, and still I think it's funny. And, yes, I'm just as much a feminist as any of you. Also it's sad that I feel like I have to append that.

I'm sorry that you felt like you had to- I don't think anyone was accusing you of not being feminist enough, just because some of us didn't find the ad funny.

Once on a work project, two women sat across from me and loudly joked to my prudish embarrassment about how they both risked black eyes from their jogging routines. (In my opinion, it was more plausible for one than the other, but I extremely wisely kept that comment entirely to myself.)

Point is that there is probably a way to repeat that joke in an ad WITHOUT showing shocking depictions of likely domestic violence photos.

Funnier would be a cartoon of a tired but cheerful-looking relay runner of a particular build getting treated trackside with two icepacks by the team trainer, one for each eye, with the caption, "Once again, Gertrude took two for the team...."

The premise doesn't bother me. I have big boobs on a relatively small frame and I'm always complaining that my boobs are going to reach up and smack me in the face if I don't wear like 6 bras when exercising. I know that it's not actually going to happen, but it's a humorous way to deal with my frustration.

The way the concept is presented is a problem though. The plain black backgrounds, the lighting, the severity of the injuries, and the unhappy expressions on the models' faces, etc.

I stared in confusion for a while. "Is she a boxer?" I thought. OOHHH!! Boobs. Hitting the face. Right. This is an execution completely disconnected from its premise, which should have never made it to the execution stage in the first place, on account of it being dumb.

I have actually joked about my boobs hitting me in the chin when running (I like my sports bra very much), but I wouldn't associate that joke with that image, nor do I think it's particularly funny when someone attempts to depict it using a real woman. It's really more of a cartoonish statement to begin with.

I am Canadian, and I think that's just bizarre, so...

When I saw the first image, I thought maybe that they were just portraying her as rough and tumble, someone who would trip and fall and then get up and keep running anyway. But understanding the ad campaign, it's clearly just a bad idea. I mean, it doesn't even make any sense. I've heard rude guys make comments about busty women risking two black eyes if they jog without a bra, but who ever heard or a blood nose or a busted lip?

As it is it seems more like they're suggesting that the bra will help support you in your quest to leave your abusive boyfriend.

Unicron_The_Vagina "I don't know that we can necessarily assume that this was definitely made only by men though. There are plenty of women out there who don't understand why this sort of thing is offensive & harmful, and some of them may even be in the advertising field."

Yeah, I guess it's generalizing to assume this was done by a man, but the thing is, I don't know any woman who would find this amusing. I had female friend who worked in advertising and she said that it was one big boys club, like the newsrooms and political circles. The guys, even if their ideas sucked (or were offensive), got all the jobs, deals and promotions. (My friend was an "assistant copywriter", I think and constantly got pushed around by her coworker "frat" boys).

I actually stopped watching TV because everything I see just bothers me. The shows, commercials, everything. To me it's obvious that mostly all the producers of shows are male because it shows. I think television would be a whole lot different if even a slightly higher percentage of stations and programming were owned/done by women and minorities. The advertising is most definitely mostly produced by men, even the commercials directed at women all seem to be exuding a sense of "what some guy thinks all women like/think about". I guess thats the best I can describe it, it's a certain "I don't know what" but it bothers me.

I remember seeing the ad with the girls getting hit in the face by their boobs and I thought "Oh, who the hell thought of that, definitely couldn't of been female, no female would have thought that clever or funny." Maybe I'm being sexist with that comment, but I really do believe that no woman would make an ad like that. I'm also really offended, frankly, by all those reality shows that show a gaggle of self-obsessed women vying for some jerk (esp. that one on VH1, name?). I mean who thought of those shows anyway. They seem so offensive to me because basically they put these women up in a line on display for the guy to pick and choose, like pieces of meat in a store. And I don't think any better of the shows where the contestants are men, they also are being treated like products on a store shelf, which I find just disgustingly offensive and shallow, I mean have any of these people ended up living "happily ever after" NO!

I also hate the same old overplayed gender stereotypes. Right now the "slacker male" and his "overbearing, overachieving, perfectionist girlfriend" stereotypes are very popular, like in "Knocked Up". I didn't see it, but I have a male friend that loves Apatow movies and is convinced woman "are" the way they are portrayed in these movies, and can't understand why I don't pay more attention to my appearance and how come I'm not telling my boyfriend what to do all the time like a good little Judd Apatow movie character. Idiot.

There's a ton more ads and shows that I find myself saying: "who the hell thought that up??" so it's easier for me now to just stop watching TV altogether, until at least there's some equality in programming, and maybe some more intelligence and sense interjected.

I used to wear bras but when I turned 19, I stopped because they pinched.

My father keeps pressuring me to wear a bra because of HIS "religious beliefs".

Then again, as an adult, I don't need to listen to that!

Although the busty girls beating themselves up while not wearing a bra was a common thought that went through my head when I was about 12, to see women beaten up in this context is unsettling.

One more comment...I thought the ads were for domestic violence too. Horrifying. Glad the company ditched them. I wonder who their ad firm was, we should be writing to them too.

This allllllmost could've worked. It's the pathetic, sad faces that say "abuse" to me. I have pictures of my face bloody and bruised, and I'm usually standing next to my opponent, arms around each other, face to bloody face. You use pictures like that, your models better damn well look like they kicked some ass.

I also think the "flying boobs" joke could have worked, if it were done right - campy and tongue-in-cheek (The Crab, your idea is hilarious!). And when I first saw the ad, I thought, like several others, that it was about boxing or martial arts. But when I read "support bras," I was thinking - oh, she's a boxer (she looks tough and athletic) and she just lost a fight; the pun is on "support" since that's what she needs to overcome her disappointment. But I also thought, "wow, this isn't a very clearly-done ad at all," and now that I realized I totally missed its (really stupid) intended meaning, I can see that I was right!

Jeez Louise. Yeah, I though the ad would be for boxing equipment too, and got incredibly confused when I found out it was for sports bras. I ran in high school and was a small B, but my teammate was a DD, and it just struck me as incredibly sucky for her that she had to double or triple up on sports bras. She was so much faster than me though, dammit :)

"Glad the company ditched them. I wonder who their ad firm was, we should be writing to them too."

Yeah, good question!

GottaBeMe, maybe you could write back to Nick Capra (since he said "Please feel free to contact me if you would like to speak about this further.") and ask him?