Ski Se Puede? Are you serious?

This blog is really going downhill. First calling Obama a sexist, now mocking the rallying cry of the United Farm Workers?

Is there nothing else you can focus on, like for example, the bill going through Missouri legislature (termed "abortion coercion"), which is packaged with proposals that also would require a woman be given the option of seeing an ultrasound of her fetus before having abortion and be instructed that an abortion may cause pain to the fetus?????

Geez, why the negativity?

That Missouri legislation bit has been mentioned in the blog before.

Just because X thing is not talked about all the time, and sometimes Y is talked about, doesn't mean that either anyone is saying Y is more important, or that X isn't an issue.

And I hardly think Jessica was "mocking" the rallying cry of the United Farm Worksers. The term mocking implies disdain for the slogan, which Jessica is not showing.

And if Obama makes a comment that can be potentially interpreted as sexist, then he can be questioned on it. Fair game. What do you want this to be, an oppressive fundamentalist government?

The Slant, the slogan is from the Women's Sports Foundation's campaign - maybe someone from there can address your concern. (Though I would hardly call it "mocking.")

Re: Obama, if you're talking about the post I believe you are, that Ann wrote recently, that was calling out a sexist remark - not calling him sexist. As far as the Missouri abortion law, we've actually had a couple of posts on MO repro issues in the last few days, but I'll check out that story as well.

Lastly, I have to say that I find it a bit rude to lecture us on what we should or shouldn't be posting on. But that's just me. We're committed to posting on feminist issues across the board, and that includes lending space to organizations (as in this post) so they can highlight their work.

Thanks.

I have to agree with most people. Feminists have gone far down hill with lots of slanted to out right lies to support their “claims� or “stats�. I’ve been made a fool over these so called feminist claims too often before.

Regarding this Ski jump claim, I’m going to have to research it myself, but if there isn’t enough world participation, then that would be a good reason not to give out Olympic medals.

Maybe if there could be an agreement on middle ground. Instead of gold, silver, and bronze medals, they could give “participation� metals for the few women seeking an easy gold metal… or why not have these women compete against the men?

It wouldn’t be fair is only three women from Canada participate in this world competition and get three top metals…

Y'know, Jessica, I generally appreciate the things that are posted here. But I can't tell you the number of times I've emailed you (or one of your counterparts) with what I think are important issues to be discussed, and that request is ignored. Just as one example, the story of Latasha Norman, who (eventually) got a one-sentence blurb in your "weekly feminist reader". The woman was kidnapped and killed by her boyfriend and all she got was one sentence - which is quite ironic because in that one sentence you were slamming mainstream media for not covering the case.

It's your right to post whatever you want. I was offended by the (mis-)use of Si Se Puede, and I believe I am allowed the right to not only be offended, but to also announce that I am offended.

And in case you missed it, you slamming mainstream media for not covering something you thought was important is quite reminiscent of me slamming you for not covering something I thought was important. Yet I get reprimanded and told not to "lecture".

Double standard here?

Seems pretty stupid on their part but I do wonder, is there some cutoff for olympic sports? Whats the term for the sports theyre looking at putting into the competition but just arent there yet? exhibition?

I dont know if there are any standards or what they might be but it does seem fishy. For comparisons sake though, 142 jumpers from 16 countries, how many male jumpers or curling players are there?

The Slant, I appreciate that you take the time to email us story ideas - we depend on emails from readers for a good deal of our content. But we get literally hundreds of emails a day; it's impossible for us to cover all the stories that are important to people. And unlike the mainstream media, who you're comparing us to, we don't get paid, we all have other jobs and we run this site as a labor of love. That's not to say we shouldn't be accountable to our readers - I think we are. But to suggest that we're remiss if we don't write about every story that deals with women's issues is just unfair. We do the best we can given the resources we have.

And of course you have the right to be offended by whatever you like, that's why I suggested that you contact the folks who came up with the slogan (I've also asked them to comment here.)

The Slant - What exactly is the proper use of "Si Se Puede" in your opinion? Where I live I have heard it chanted at political events and soccer games. Obama also uses its English translation often for his campaign. As far as I know, no one owns the phrase. And the only misuse I can imagine would be a grammatical mistake.

"I have to agree with most people. Feminists have gone far down hill with lots of slanted to out right lies to support their “claims� or “stats�. "

Okay. Problem one -who are you to say, that is, how would you know, what "most people" think?

Second of all, yes feminists make mistakes and sometimes provide innacurate information. Non-feminists and anti-feminists do that too, you know. And you're using the term "feminists" here as though it is not a complex movement, which makes me wonder if you are not terribly sympathetic and self-identifying with feminism's purpose anyway...

The Slant,

I too have submited ideas for articles that were not written about. However, I'm sure the ladies receive lots of ideas, seeing as they have lots of readers, so I try not to take it too personally. I mean, who am I to judge what the readership will be most interested in? I'm too lazy to start my own blog... And as I recall, the theme of minority women missing being ignored by the media has received more attention in this blog than a mere sentence. I think I've seen at least three posts about it, a couple of which focused on the issue...

@Suzie: Since when is 142 women from across the globe "a few" or the same as three from Canada?

This short post even mentions Lindsey Van by name and says she is from the US team (which implies she isn't the only ski jumper in the US).

"She" (Suzie) does bring up an interesting point though-- why can't the women compete against the menz (especially if the IOC says there are "too few" women to compete against each other)? I mean Lindsey Van apparently has the record (about 5.5 meters more than the highest male) for the Vancouver jump.

Suzie seems to think that women ski jumpers are just seeking "easy" gold metals, but if women are ski jumping better than the men who actually receive the gold metals, who is really getting the gold metals the "easy" way? It seems like the menz, by not competing against worthy women who could beat them.

With the recent influxes of people complaining about the post content, I'm beginning to think there should be a permanent link at the end of every article to the Feminism 101 page "Why are you concentrating on X when Y is so much more important?".

More on topic, it would seem that there are plenty of women to have a women's ski jump event, or even an integrated ski jump event (though it would seem rather unfair to the naturally inferior menz /snark). Plus, if they include the event for this upcoming Olympics, it might cause even more women to go into ski jumping, thus increasing the competitiveness.

priestess,
Would that only apply to ski jumping or all events?

Having this at the olympics might indeed increase the number of ski jumpers and I'm all for that. I have little faith in the IOC as they have numerous marks against them but really mostly for the sake of my curiosity I'd like to know if 142/16 "qualifies" or in general what the standards supposedly are. I know sports have been added and dropped over the years, does anyone know more about this?

A bit OT: We won't have mixed gender competitions at the world class level anytime in the near future but should we? It seems it might be feasible in sports that mix strength endurance and speed with strategy. Was debating this with friends trying to come up with possible sports for this, ruled out all track and field other than ultra-marathons but maybe tennis or (on shortened courses) golf? Still was hard for us to get around the "fairness" issue though, say with golf, anyone can play in the PGA but only women can play in the LPGA, think that will ever change or is the physical difference in the top .001% just too much to overcome?

Meri: "With the recent influxes of people complaining about the post content, I'm beginning to think there should be a permanent link at the end of every article to the Feminism 101 page "Why are you concentrating on X when Y is so much more important?".

Me, too. I've been thinking the same thing today.

dan or danica,

In my post I was refering to ski jumping in particular. I was annoyed at the Suzie post and was following the whole "easy medal" thing to what I saw was its logical conclusion based on the data provided in the post.

But mixed gendered sports is an interesting subject. I don't personally think the "physical differences" are too much to overcome with at least some sports (like ski jumping it seems or gymnastics or figure skating and maybe, as you say tennis or golf).
But I don't know how many people would agree with me.
I think some people/men would be VERY resistant to the idea with some sports, like they are with the military.

priestress,
true and i think it would be cool to have some mixed gender sports at the highest level.
I would be totally in favor of it as well at the school level but there its hardest for the bottom 10% and i dont see a way around that. either you do what my school did and have a girls team and a mixed team, costing the weakest male players spots on the team, or you have only mixed leagues cossting both the weakest male and female athletes, thats a tough one.

got ya on the "easy" medal thing, i read it a bit too quickly. even though i believe the IOC is in the wrong its hard for me to jump all over their case without some more numbers, 142/16 means little to me with no context, of course it seems they are just looking for any excuse, though the numbers one isnt necessarily a bad one.

I am interested in what the required number of countries/participants for a sport to become part of the Olympics is, too. 142/16 doesn't mean much to me either. Luckily, I'm on the internet....

Lets forget all the gender segregation crap and just have one mixed team for everybody. Gender should play no role in sports at the highest levels. I want to see the best athletes, PERIOD.

Or, we could oppose the 2010 Olympics altogether, since it's being held on stolen, unceded, sacred Indigenous land.

http://www.no2010.com/

priestess,
i looked for it, just couldnt find it, hard for me to look for more than a minute or two as my overseer, i mean boss, is still around.

medstudent,
i think that way too at times but then youd have to have some other kind of event or you'd see very, very few women at these games, especially the summer olympics.

According to this story:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/06/sportsline/main1283679_page2.shtml

"Ski jumping boasts more seasoned competitors than women's bobsled and skeleton had when those sports were added to the Games in 2002."

The article is from 2006 and claims that there are more than 120 female ski jumpers from 14 countries (two years ago).

So if women's skeleton (what the hell is that?) can be added with less than 120/14 in 2002, why not ski jumping with 142/16 in 2008?

If the FIS does approve of introducing ski jumping like the original post says, it seems like it is just the IOC procrastinating and, yes, looking for an excuse.

According to this blog:

http://fourthwavers.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/women-not-allowed-in-olympics-ski-jumping/

"This compares with 34 women from 10 nations in snowboard cross, 30 women from 11 nations in skier cross and 26 women from 13 nations in bobsled."

So, if that is correct, ski jumping has a lot MORE women from MORE nations than other winter sports, so I'm not buying the numbers excuse AT ALL.

And it is really annoying because the Olympics website has all these pages of vagueness about "advancing women in sport's"--bullshit.

A word on why I chose "Ski Se Puede" for the title of this post...Although the origin, Si Se Puede, was created by Dolores Huerta for the United Farm Workers, it has become the a powerful rally cry, used with respect, by protesters all over the world. Literally meaning, "Yes, It Can Be Done"...and somewhat reinvented as Yes We Can...it carries an important historical sense of equality, struggle, and hope in light of it all (hence, Obama's affinity for the saying). Bottom line, the Ski Jumpers, like the United Farm Workers, are standing up against the same societal ills: oppression, discrimination and marginalization. The title "Ski Se Puede" by no means mocks the likes of Cesar Chavez, but rather gains inspiration from the victories of those who came before us. Whattya say we united in our struggles on account of socioeconomics, race and gender, instead of finding ways to further divide ourselves?

awesome, thanks priestess.

i think skeleton is like bobsledding without the sled. crazy.

i think what will be interesting to see is if they can resolve this ski jump issue as well as many others, what effect that will have on viewership of female sporting events.

Most of the fans I know of any sport at some time in their life played that sport. as we have more female athletes perhaps the audience will grow. I personally don't watch any female sports, I tried to get into the WNBA as I like the NBA but its simply a different game at a different speed, ditto for soccer. I was a track guy in school so I can watch women's track and appreciate it but I still like watching the person who runs the fastest, jumps the highest, or throws the farthest. Still it will be interesting to watch the stats over the next few decades.

On the subject of mixed gendered sports -

Fencing is alreading mix gendered, at least at the local level (or at least at my local level). Although at the world competition level it is segregated by gender.

Just in case there are still some people like The Slant who don't think this is a serious issue of blatant sexism and gender discrimination, remember that previous reasons for not allowing women in the ski jump competition included "concern" about damage to their delicate ladyparts.

kind of like when women used to be barred from club sports because it was bad for them to sweat geek? Amazing how some things change and some dont.

hmmm fencing might be a good one, would any of you embrace a worlds best athlete competition, say the olympics, if it wasn't divided by sex? I know med student mentioned it but i wonder how widespread that is. also, is ping pong an olympic sport?

To add another really interesting (and infuriating) angle to this issue -- consider the recent IOC decision to ADD women's SKICROSS to the Games. Despite lobbying efforts for YEARS to get women's ski jumping added, and oodles of development programs and female athletes worldwide, the IOC strangely chose to add Skicross - a sport that is virtually unknown in the international realm. It gained recent popularity by its inclusion in the Winter X Games. I attended the X Games this January and got the scoop from female pro skiers themselves and others: The skiers confirmed that there are virtually no development programs internationally for this event, and it's more something retired downhill racers can get into in the X Games. (wiki it)

So WHY the IOC decision to include it over ski jumping? CARNAGE. Wrecks. The speculation is that people love to see crashes. Think Nascar popularity. Word on the winter sports scene is that the IOC thinks it's "sexier" and more exciting for the average Joe TV Viewer.

Hmph. Glad to see the IOC chooses carnage over women's rights. Add sports all you want, but if the men get ski jumping, the women should too.

I think I saw ping pong at the last summer Olympics.

I'm not sure about the idea of men and women competing against each other in many sports. For something like skating, I can see men doing better and then the judging and the subjectiveness of it would be questioned and stuff like that.

I, for one, would be thrilled if shooting events were gender integrated again. A skilled targetshooter came to my base when I was in the military, and told us that men and women's shooting events were gender segregated after a woman tied him for the bronze medal at some competition. He said he asked them to give them both the bronze, but instead he told us that they went to some ninth-level tiebreaker that he had never seen used in a competition before or since. He said that after that, events were gender segregated because "women are better shots." He chalked it up to better fine motor skills.

Also, are the horsebackriding events gender-segregated still? That makes no sense.

BTW, did you guys know that a woman currently holds the record for swimming the English Channel?

Damnit, I'm wrong! A man is on top again. But perhaps not permanently--women have been the fastest recorded swimmers of the channel more than once. :)

The women's ski jumping controversy was JUST now covered on NPR's All Things Considered. Check it out. Transcript available within the hour.