"We put the meat on the pole, not on the plate."

Seriously? Seriously? He just seriously called women meat? Well, at least he's upfront with how he regards women. As meat.

I find myself divided between agreeing with you and thinking that if someone's going to run a strip club, I'd sooner see one promoting veganism (or lacto/ovo, which I am) than one just promoting breasts.
Good point that nobody seems to be targeting women in the same way ("We're the Chippendales, and we like women who like meatless meals." or the like.

I am a vegetarian as well. I even work a vegetarian/vegan restaurant. All the food is great and alot of our customers aren't vegetarian/vegans but just love the food and atmosphere. I am all for people trying out/being exposed to vegetarianism/veganism and it's more healthy and earth-friendly lifestyle.

BUT THESE PLACES ARE JUST DISGUSTING! And so the PETA ads. It just goes to show how feminism is necessary and that someone (typically male) can be liberal and sexist or a vegan and sexist, etc.

Carol Adams is amazing, thanks for mentioning her! She is great at showing the connections between women's oppresion and animal's/the earth's oppression.

I was just over reading about skinny bitch at pandagon..great conversation over there too. seriously, i despise anything that uses naked women as a selling point. so whether its PETA, or a strip club.. I don't care its both awful. Furthermore, its pretty sad that these vegan converter-wannabees can't seem to sell veganism through moral appeal. and why is that, cause not everyone can afford a healthy vegan diet, and not everyone wants to give up meat... so instead it's "look you can be skinny if you do this " (which isnt actually true) and "you can look at naked gals" --lame

Also, Ann, I don't think this turns Carol Adam's theory on its head. She mentions the PETA ads and sexism in "marketing vegetarianism." It may be in her later book The Pornography of Meat, but it is there in her analysis.

I was just over reading about skinny bitch at pandagon..great conversation over there too. seriously, i despise anything that uses naked women as a selling point. so whether its PETA, or a strip club.. I don't care its both awful. Furthermore, its pretty sad that these vegan converter-wannabees can't seem to sell veganism through moral appeal. and why is that, cause not everyone can afford a healthy vegan diet, and not everyone wants to give up meat... so instead it's "look you can be skinny if you do this " (which isnt actually true) and "you can look at naked gals" --lame

I've noticed an antifeminist strain in some subgroups of vegetarians too, and more generally in the "slow food" movement. Eating meat (or non-Michael-Pollan-approved food) is unfeminine, and worst of all, it makes you fat. If men or children are eating such things, it's all the fault of women who aren't at home cooking healthy meals for their families. It's got to be frustrating to support vegetarianism for environmental or health reasons and have to deal with this strain of thought that's using it to put women in their places.

priestesssarah, thanks for the head's up. I'll have to check out The Pornography of Meat.

No problem, Ann! Thanks for all your hard work. I love feministing.

This article touches on Adam's criticism of PETA.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0820/is_n210/ai_16019827/pg_3

"The PETA campaign, writes Adams, 'announces that [PETA] doesn't get it' with respect to the 'objectification of women in general and, specifically, the [role] of the patriarchy in oppressing animals.' Until the group stops exploiting women, says Adams, it will never end the exploitation of animals. FAR is not alone in its criticism of the PETA ads."

Check out Feminist for Animal Rights (FAR) for more.

Anything PETA does is disgusting. They aren't really about animals, they are about money and attention. If you are interested in animal rights, there are sooooooo many other groups to check out that will actually further the cause and *gasp* actually help animals. I refuse to respect any group that resorts to death threats or vandalism, or says I'm abusive because I have a dog at home.

if you don't believe me, check out www.petakillsanimals.com

I was just reading about this at Bitch magazine's new site (!): http://bitchmagazine.org/post/meatless
Echidne also has an interesting post about "An article in the Washington Post tells us in no uncertain terms who should be responsible for making Americans slimmer: the moms, or rather the women in families who are already responsible for buying the food and for cooking it." http://echidneofthesnakes.blogspot.com/ It seems to me that a lot of the responsibility for things that fall into the realm of food are considered womens responsibility, as if we don't already have enough on our plates (see, I made a pun, there!)

I wonder how many more way the "left" can be sexist. . . Maybe "green" strip clubs? Ads with naked women promoting world peace?

But you don't understand! The strippers here have empowerfulled themselves to change the world for the better via a totally conscious decision in a complete vacuum where there is no patriarchy! They just happen to be doing it with pussy because everybody knows men can't respond to actual moral arguments! We know this is true because the man running the club said so! Therefore, nobody is being objectified!

Master even gets along with the women working for him! Note the "we." I bet he's dating at least a few of these totally happy femi-libertarian pieces of meat.

I'm the last person on earth to defend PETA, but they have naked-guy ads out there too-- I know because google mail informs me every time I mention "Angel" or "Bones." Okay, David Boreanaz, you're a vegetarian. I GET IT.

I'm vegetarian, too. But why is it, that I do not feel the urge to run around naked? Something mus be wrong with me... or am I just a bad veggie?

To this strip bar owner: Grow a brain already or go back to that cave you came from.

http://wweek.com/columns/letters/

Hmmmmm, maybe the "left" could be even more sexist if the most liberal presidential candidate got in bed with Hustler publisher Larry Flynt. Oh wait, he already did. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jackson-katz/dennis-kucinich-endorses-_b_77226.html
'Kay I'm starting to make myself depressed, now, so I'm just gonna stop.

Liza, I for one am A-OK with throwing a brick through a McDonald's window. The prevaling nonviolence dogma makes you equate all the stupid shit PETA does with property destruction and then use them as an excuse to condemn vandalism, but I'm actually much more upset by the fact that they would take ideas like environmentalism and diversity of tactics and tarnish them with sexist douchebaggery.

Just as PETA does not represent everybody who has ever refused to eat meat, they don't represent everybody who has ever fucked shit up in the name of direct action or been accused of "extremist tactics" by a police force bent on rooting out anybody whose protest methods were affective.

Hmmmmm, maybe the "left" could be even more sexist if the most liberal presidential candidate got in bed with Hustler publisher Larry Flynt. Oh wait, he already did. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jackson-katz/dennis-kucinich-endorses-_b_77226.html
'Kay I'm starting to make myself depressed, now, so I'm just gonna stop.

Those are two great links, beigelights. Larry Flynt and the Nazis who marhed in Skokie were involved in two of the most important free speech of the last couple decades. I don't think a fawning Woody Harrelson biopic should be made about either.

As a feminist vegan, this just makes me so mad! There's nothing else I can really say. I've never met a single vegan who supports PETA or any of the other appalling sexist groups that do this kind of stuff.

I'm glad to see though, that this thread hasn't turned into an anti-vegan diatribe blah blah yet! Some people eat meat and dairy, some people don't and both of those choices are fine.

As Ann noted, the meat industry is just as sexist as PETA and the strip club guy - that's because we live in a sexist society, and it's not an excuse to vilify anyone or their choices, be they vegan, veggie or omni!

Eh, the strip club example is just not very relevant. What wider social trend are you exposing? Of course strip clubs advertise the nake women inside. I don't think this speaks to vegan-advertising much, at all.

As for using women's bodies to sell veganism (like PETA), there's a chance for overreaction here. In a just and equal society there would be nothing wrong with an appeal to health or looks in advocating a diet. Many feminists disagree, but I think that's just b/c they have too much exposure to out very inequal society.

At the end of the day, if there are at least some male models as well (eg: PETA), if the female models are healthy looking (and these seem so) and the women aren't unduly objectified, I don't think it should be a top focus. It's not the biggest problem out there regarding feminist equality and you're only going to alienate people with by appearing unreasonable.

Posted by Liza:

Anything PETA does is disgusting. They aren't really about animals, they are about money and attention.

Correct.

For similar reasons, many of the criticisms above fall short. If you criticize the use of naked women TO promote vegetarianism, you are going to sound lame.

The addicted loser with a sad paycheck in hand understands this much better. He never eats food at a, uh, fashion show . . .

A good way to camouflage your profiting off naked women is to advertise it as a means to a good end. And you might get free air time on TV too. That's all there is to it.

By the way, those vegan strippers? They are doing it to put themselves through law school, medical school, and astronaut training.

Of course I am condemning violence and vandalism! There is never a time when damaging someone's property or person is acceptable. It isn't about a "dogma," it's about having RESPECT for the beliefs of others even if I don't agree with them. It's about being capable of rational debate instead of resorting to physical threats. I can't believe I am actually reading a post that is condoning the use of vandalism, terroristic threats, and violence for any cause!

That is so ridiculous on so many levels that I can't even find words to refute it. And I can usually find words for anything. It's impossible to use logic thought against an illogical argument.

By the way, the Mirriam-Webster definition of "dogma" is "a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds." I'm wondering what the lack of adequate grounds is for not wanting to hurt or kill. Compassion? A sense of ethical behavior? Oh, the horror.

Of course I am condemning violence and vandalism! There is never a time when damaging someone's property or person is acceptable. It isn't about a "dogma," it's about having RESPECT for the beliefs of others even if I don't agree with them. It's about being capable of rational debate instead of resorting to physical threats. I can't believe I am actually reading a post that is condoning the use of vandalism, terroristic threats, and violence for any cause!

That is so ridiculous on so many levels that I can't even find words to refute it. And I can usually find words for anything. It's impossible to use logic thought against an illogical argument.

By the way, the Merriam-Webster definition of "dogma" is "a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds." I'm wondering what the lack of adequate grounds is for not wanting to hurt or kill. Compassion? A sense of ethical behavior? Oh, the horror.

Sorry about the doubly post. I went back to correct a spelling error, and I thought I had stopped it in time.

My roommate got a Skinny Bitch in the Kitch cookbook - the writing style is a step above (or is it below?) Cosmo magazine, et al. The persona of sassy skinny "bitches" who, like, totally love animals is enough to make me lose my appetite.

Thank you for the disclaimer, Ann. And excellent post.

I count myself as a feminist man, and I've been vegan since 1993. I am appalled at the gratuitous objectification of women to promote ANY diet -- even if it is one I subscribe to. I can understand wanting to widen the awareness of vegan diets, but this is a grave disservice.

I became vegan because I was won over by the arguments over reduced environmental impacts, potentially improved resource allocation, and potentially improved individual health that a vegan diet can provide. At the time, the only options I had to learn about vegetarian and vegan diets were to read about them -- not see such objectifying bilge.

Am I the only person here who isn't automatically opposed to strip clubs?

you should definitely read incredible feminist comedian julie klausner's ripping apart of the skinny bitch franchise at salon: http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2008/02/11/skinny_bitch/index.html?source=search&aim=/mwt/feature.

in it, she writes that the abusive tone the authors of SB use to make your normal eating habits moral failures is the voice inside your mind when you are afflicted with an eating disorder. the women who wrote SB, they admit in the back that what they are writing has nothing to do with nutrition or an actual diet. it's all just a ruse to get you eating vegan, or if you are not, feeling horrible about it. plus: FAT SHAMING!

...or says I'm abusive because I have a dog at home

Are you serious, PETA says that? So it would have been better to let my older dog remain wild with her transmissible venereal tumor until that killled her? (saw pictures of that condition advanced when I was researching it, not pretty -- quick round of chemo cured her completely). Or maybe my younger one, allergic to lots of trees & grasses & foods, was better off when her fur was falling out and her skin was all scaly than she is now being sleek and healthy with the allergy shots I give her? Perhaps I shouldn't take them to day care tomorrow to play with other dogs while I'm at work, I'll just dump them off in the woods somewhere instead....

sheesh, how do they expect ANYONE to take them seriously??

if the female models are healthy looking (and these seem so) and the women aren't unduly objectified

Um, not sure about "healthy looking," I just see the typical super-skinny ideal that is shoved in our faces all the time, especially in the left and center ads. And as the discussion about the "skinny bitch" book has been emphasizing, skinny does not necessarily mean healthy.

I am also curious as to what consitutes being "unduly" objectified. Is a certain amount of objectification considered "due"?

The only (!!!)"good" thing I see in PETA's advertising strategies is, that they make at least some people aware of the fact that either their steak once was a feeling animal or that some thing like vegetarism/veganism even exists. But thats about it.

In a just and equal society there would be nothing wrong with an appeal to health or looks in advocating a diet.

BS. In a just and equal society, no one would appeal to looks in advocating healthy eating (which is definition for diet you are using here, I assume). Healthy eating doesn't change ones "looks" or basic body shape. In a just and equal society, this would be understood. It's the current "very [un]equal society" that promotes that lie. "Looks" and "health" are not related in any way.

if the female models are healthy looking (and these seem so) and the women aren't unduly objectified, I don't think it should be a top focus.

What is "healthy looking?" And are you the only one who gets to determine what constitutes "healthy looking"? Do you possess some unknown power that allows you to ascertain one's health status though a photo (more likely touched-up photos, in this case)?

BS. In a just and equal society, no one would appeal to looks in advocating healthy eating (which is definition for diet you are using here, I assume). Healthy eating doesn't change ones "looks" or basic body shape.

This is just silly. Maintaining a good diet is probaby more important than exercise in determining your weight. And plenty of people use diets to control their weight. Is this really news? Some feminists are really bothered by the fact that people want to control their looks to be more attractive. Fine. But I think there is plenty of room for a feminist to be okay with it and as long as that's true, advertising based on an appeal to appearances is not a priori sexist.

"Looks" and "health" are not related in any way.

Why don't you back this off to an actually defensible claim? What you're attacking is pretty much a strawman here, anyways. I said 'healthy looking' just to indicate that I think starvation fashion models are inappropriate ways of appealing to consumers. I was specifically using the term to exclude women who are allegedly attractive, but probably not very healthy, a disntinction I imagine you appreciate. Anyhow, its just a subjective judgement and I'm offering my opinion. If you think those women are unnatually thin, I can appreciate why you would be bothered.

I am also curious as to what consitutes being "unduly" objectified. Is a certain amount of objectification considered "due"?

Sexual objectification is also subjective, but I definitely think there are degrees. It depends on the degree to which an image focuses on woman as woman or woman as breasts, for example. Nakedness tends to lead to greater opportunities for objectification, but not always in practice. You should pick your battles, though. Some fights deserve more energy than others. That's what I'm implying with 'undue'.

Some of my best friends have been lettuce ladies for PETA.

It's so anti-feminist when other women try to tell them what's acceptable to do with their bodies.

PETA does NOT say it is abusive to have a dog! PETA advocates dog adoption. What PETA is against is breeding dogs while millions are being euthanized in shelters! The fact is that there is so such thing as a responsible breeder when there are millions of adoptable pets on death row.

Honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic to complain about PETA's risque ads when they speak out against horrendous mistreatment of helpless animals.

Honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic to complain about PETA's risque ads when they speak out against horrendous mistreatment of helpless animals.

Wow! That's the first time I think I've ever seen someone defend PETA.

Having a noble goal doesn't excuse the use of unethical tactics. There are plenty of animal rights organizations that manage to help animals without objectifying women.

Those women CHOSE to pose for those ads because it's a cause they believe in. I wouldn't pose nude for PETA, but that is my decision.

I just find it laughable that some find it more appauling that women might choose to pose nude for some ad than the actual abuses it speaks put against.

Way to completely miss the point, Ava. I'm not talking about what adult women are choosing to do. I, and many others, object to PETA's repeatedly sexist ad campaigns. No time to write further, but I'd suggest you read Jill's essay at Feministe on the subject. It's quite good.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/01/28/those-maligned-peta-ads/

Ann, thanks so much for the post. I hadn't heard of the vegan issue, but veggie or not, there's no reason to exploit women to gain customers or converts.

I wrote about this on www.Slashfood.com:

http://www.slashfood.com/2008/01/17/peta-again-using-scantily-clad-women-to-make-its-point/
-Ellen

Why don't you back this off to an actually defensible claim? What you're attacking is pretty much a strawman here, anyways. I said 'healthy looking'

I was very obviously referring to your comment about appealing to looks in order to press healthy eating. Not your “healthy looking� comment.

I was specifically using the term to exclude women who are allegedly attractive, but probably not very healthy, a disntinction I imagine you appreciate.

Maybe you should have included that in your original comments.

If you think those women are unnatually thin, I can appreciate why you would be bothered.

I don’t believe I said a thing about those women’s weight, as a matter of fact, I didn’t comment on those women at all.

You should pick your battles, though. Some fights deserve more energy than others. That's what I'm implying with 'undue'.

Translation: “But, this issue isn’t as important as X issue!�
Talk about a strawman.

beigelights-

Thanks for posting the link to the Kucinich article. I hadn't read it and didn't know about Flynt's endorsement.

But now I'm depressed too. :(

Lucretia: nope, not the only one. I think the problem is in the execution of it, not the fact alone that it exists.

Lucretia: no. I am fine with strip clubs, as long as the women dancing are treated well and the owners don't allow customers to harass them or touch them inappropriately, etc.

Ava, all I can say to refute you is this:

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/article_detail.cfm?article=134

Look at #1.

I'm completely for animal rights. I was a vegetarian for 7 years. I am generally opposed to animal testing, puppy mills, dog fighting (Michael Vick got off way to easy), hunting and fishing, need I go on? I used to work in an animal shelter and I have seen some terrible, horrible, awful things that people have done to animals. I have to keep a lot of what I saw locked away in a tiny corner of my brain so it doesn't haunt me. I have two dogs that live better than most people. I don't think it's abusive to have pets. Quite to the contrary. I think people should adopt before going to a breeder, and be VERY critical if they do go to one for whatever reason. I believe every pet should be spayed or neutered unless you are a responsible breeder. I believe every pet should be microchipped.

PETA believes in "total animal liberation" which includes "no meat, no milk, no zoos, no circuses, no wool, no leather, no hunting, no fishing, and no pets (not even seeing-eye dogs)." I agree with no zoos or circuses, and with no hunting for sport (I think it's OK to hunt for food, as long as "oh well we eat it" is an excuse for sport hunting). But yes, they do believe it's wrong to own pets. "Abusive" may have been my word, but I'm pretty sure I read *somewhere* that a PETA rep referred to pet ownership as cruel.

dammit, Michael Vick got off way *too* easy.

I hate typos.

I'm veggie. BUT. I think PETA's tactics are pretty gross, and I disagree with a lot of their beliefs. Ditto for that strip club.

On a fun and happy note though, has anyone seen VegPorn .com? It's a sexpositive, multigender, straight/gay/bi/trans/whatever site with nude pictures of all shapes and sizes and genders of folks who also happen to be vegans. They even have recipes! It's been around for years. Which makes me think that Mr. Diablo may have seen it and decided to co-opt the idea?? Maybe?

im not a massive peta fan, but for the posters mentioning petakillsanimals.com, you should kno that that website is owned by the center for consumer freedom, a right wing think tank funded by the tabacco, food and beverage industry, including meat companies like tyson foods, outback steakhouse, perdue farms, white castle, the companies that own applebees, tgifridays, chilis, ruby tuesday, michigan turkey producers cooperative, armour swift-eckrich. that website is far from unbiased, being funded by companies that have an active interest in the continued consumption of meat and dairy. you can check out info on the center for consumer freedom here http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_Consumer_Freedom

so yeah, peta ads are sketchy and objectify women, but petakillsanimals is far sketchier.

i'm a stripper, i'm vegan, and i'm a feminist. i read this blog every day. shocking? while i was somewhat offended by the "meat on the pole" comment...all i thought about was how i'd love to work at a place where i don't have to explain to my clients and co-workers what veganism is...and not worrying about getting enough food that night that i actually can eat. it's my job and i am hungry after dancing all night.

there is also this quote about the club:

"Creatures, human and non-human, should be allowed to do what ever they want as long as they don’t step on someone else’s hooves. In this Universe that is virtually impossible but we mean to change all that … eventually. In the meantime during our battle with God while we are trying to save all creatures from pain and suffering why not come down and have a look see. Casa Diablo Gentlemen’s Club brings you the finest exotic dancers from around the world giving you a healthy dose of cruelty free pleasure … because we can."

from this article here:

http://thedistrictweekly.com/daily/staff-infection/music-blog/2008/02/12/naked-girls-not-smoking-at-all/

i'm a stripper, i'm vegan, and i'm a feminist. i read this blog every day. shocking? while i was somewhat offended by the "meat on the pole" comment...all i thought about was how i'd love to work at a place where i don't have to explain to my clients and co-workers what veganism is...and not worrying about getting enough food that night that i actually can eat. it's my job and i am hungry after dancing all night.

there is also this quote about the club:

"Creatures, human and non-human, should be allowed to do what ever they want as long as they don’t step on someone else’s hooves. In this Universe that is virtually impossible but we mean to change all that … eventually. In the meantime during our battle with God while we are trying to save all creatures from pain and suffering why not come down and have a look see. Casa Diablo Gentlemen’s Club brings you the finest exotic dancers from around the world giving you a healthy dose of cruelty free pleasure … because we can."

from this article here:

http://thedistrictweekly.com/daily/staff-infection/music-blog/2008/02/12/naked-girls-not-smoking-at-all/

For some reason, despite being a good feminist in almost every other way, I just can't seem to bother to be bothered by photos of naked women. That Eva Mendes photo? Beautiful.

The idea of a vegan strip club just really amuses me.

PETA ads are even less offensive than most ads featuring naked women. The women in question choose to pose because they support the cause. And, while I'm not quite sure about PETA, anti-fur is a cause I would strip for.

Think about it. If you were a beautiful young movie star, would you pose naked to support a woman's right to choose?

I find nothing wrong with the campaigns. Those women are doing it of there own free will. I for one support them.

Clair, the argument that "women are doing it of their own free will" can be used in a number of ways, including by those who do exploit women like pimps, or who teach society it is alright to objectify women like Larry Flynt of Hustler magazine. I would support these women, if they are indeed doing it by choice, as opposed to lacking better employment prospects or being oppressed. My readings on workers in pornography or the sex industry (via e.g., NoPornNorthHampton) leave me pessimistic. "Meat." riiiight.

I am about the last person on this site who would object to seeing a beautiful nude woman in life or print, but I personally do not get the overuse of the *female* body in PETA/vegan/vegetarian ads.

Doesn't suprise me. Shoot...these two vegan dudes that go to my college were the same dudes that loved the book we read in class where the author said that women are more fickle than men because they have vaginas that can fit any penis (no joke), that we're in the age of ignorance because women are driving cars, that women should never be on top during sex because it encourages them to fall back on their masculine habits accumulated in past lives, and I could go on for a good five paragraphs about all the shit this author said. These two dudes are liberal, mind you, and despite all of the sexist shit in the book, they still had the gumption to tell me that the author doesn't hate women because he worships Kali.

I'm not saying that all vegans promote sexism, not by any stretch of the imagination, but it doesn't suprise me that even liberal, vegan/vegetarian folks will support sexist notions.

"sexy, trendy and fun loving women whose goal is to inspire men to live a longer and happier life, by making healthier decisions on what they consume."

You gotta be kidding. So these women decide its better if men eat healthy, instead of keeping their self respect?! Now I think they're just plain ignorant.
Just because they decide to shake their toosh in a guy's face doesn't necessarily mean that guy is willing to give up eating meat.
That's just bull...
I hate whem females stoop that low and make us all look like we're just a piece of "meat." I also hate(with a passion) how their actions seem to affect us all!

"I hate whem females stoop that low and make us all look like we're just a piece of "meat." I also hate(with a passion) how their actions seem to affect us all!"

Experience with sex workers (many of whom would actually like to stop) shows the solution is not punishment or stigma, but offering opportunities to get out of the life, e.g. job training. I used to blame women who mad a living with their looks or their bodies (and SAHMs*), but I have learned I was mistaken to believe they had real choices.

http://www.nopornnorthampton.org/

* No flames, please. I'm learning.

PETA does NOT say it is abusive to have a dog! PETA advocates dog adoption. What PETA is against is breeding dogs while millions are being euthanized in shelters! The fact is that there is no such thing as a responsible breeder when there are millions of adoptable pets on death row.

Honestly, I think it's pretty pathetic to complain about PETA's risque ads when they speak out against horrendous mistreatment of helpless animals.

Thus, yes, they advocate rescues but only for existing dogs and want NO breeding - thus no pets.

They also support killing all pit bulls to "save them" from themselves. But I'm sure you don't care about that, because they are of course different from all other dogs

Talking about PETA again.

"they advocate rescues but only for existing dogs"

In nursing school, I read their magazine monthly, and visit their site occasionally, but don't know - what do you mean "rescue" dogs? They raid breeders and dog farms to free or take domesticated dogs?

I went to that vegporn site. Interesting concept, if not my taste.

They have a store:

http://www.thesensualvegan.com

As a nurse, I was interested in their barrier methods (see: Safer Sex).

Vegan Condoms
Vegan Dams
Vegan Latex Gloves

"not tested on animals" lol
"1/2 woman-owned company" lol

So again, even in a committed relationship, if you are not certain of the status of your partner (CDC recommends annual testing), I highly recommend using a backup in addition to any other form of contraception you use, preferably a barrier method to prevent transmission of STD/STIs. This would include a dental dam for use on a female. Also, yes, though I have never actually heard of *anyone* actually using them, gloves could be useful against contact transmission for such as HPV which can reside on the skin.

No, I take that back, as a matter of fact, I use textured non-latex gloves on my wife myself when my skin or nails cause irritation. I had to buy a box of 100 for school.

Nattles: No, I wouldn't take my clothes off to spread awareness about a woman's right to choose. It buys into and perpetuates the idea that women's bodies exist for everyone but them. My body apparently exists for the pleasure of men, for eye candy, for incubation, and for social causes. Everyone but me. Until the advertisement of everything under the sun stops being placed on the backs (or breasts and butt rather) of women, I will never see these PETA ads as anything but gratuitous marketing that takes advantage of the patriarchal culture we live in that has no respect for a woman's body unless it's being employed for someone else's ends.

I watched the linked Fox video about the vegan strip club. It was gratuitous, with reporter gawking at dancers posing, and repeated underwear flying through the air landing on him. Totally unprofessional.

It was basically a commercial for the business. BS.

Nattles, I'm not necessarily offended by women's naked bodies, but I am offended by the fact that we are used so often in advertising, for anything and everything, often as if we are the actual product rather than a human being. The artist in me appreciates the beauty of these pictures but simultaneously their societal context makes them repulsive.

What I find offensive and troubling about this is not the nudity per se, but the appeal to some of the worst tactics of misogynist culture. It deliberately uses the idea that access to women's bodies is something men can earn through certain behaviors.

1. PETA's ads featuring naked women target women, not men.

2. Who eats at a strip club?

If, for instance, a group of girls pooled their money and started a little burlesque (male AND female) spot that served vegan food (which I could TOTALLY see working in Portland), that's one thing. This LA Transplant, bordering-on-a-midlife-crisis, "Johnny Diablo" assclown has Bad Idea Jeans written all over him.

He's using veganism as a tool of power (as opposed to a lifestyle choice) in his "cult," as a means of trying to control his "stable" (I've experienced this kind of thing firsthand, and when I called bullshit I was promptly fired). It's not unlike a Christian Fundamentalist strip club (which I'm sure exists SOMEWHERE); you're using "morality" as a tool to influence your employees. This guy is unsavory in so many ways.

Plus, he apparently finds it amusing to deceive the customers who think they are ordering beef. I'm sure he won't be laughing when someone brings legal action against him due to a soy allergic reaction.

I would also expound further on PETA's emphasis on naked girls and their overall sexism (have they ever spray painted a male wearing fur? how about a male with an entourage?), but frankly they have ceased being relevant to me.

Almost forgot...I bet Nigella Lawson wouldn't call you a "bitch." Too bad those authors aren't half the woman she is (and I'm not referring to size)!

In nursing school, I read their magazine monthly, and visit their site occasionally, but don't know - what do you mean "rescue" dogs? They raid breeders and dog farms to free or take domesticated dogs?

Being PETA though it depends where you are - they've stolen dogs from shelters, rescues and probably breeders.

What I was referring to was shelter/rescue dogs indeterminably with one term :P

I'm a vegan and I don't agree with this at all. Sure I support the cause but it angers me to see this garbage. It’s kind of sad that they lack the creativity to come up with a new idea.
I used to donate money to PETA every month because I believe so much in what they do for animals, but recently I wrote them a letter telling them that they wouldn't receive another cent from me, specifically because of those types of ads. I hope that others do the same. Maybe someday soon they will see how it’s all connected and find another way to promote animal rights.
In the words of Kathleen Hanna, “Eat meat, Hate blacks, beat your F-ing wife, it's all the same thing�.

Since this has turned into a talk about PETA, I'll say this and believe my posts are currently done for the site:

I see value in every one of their arguments. I read their literature. I visit their website. I watch their videos online. I see their commercials. I see some ads posted at school. If I weren't lazy, I'd lean vegetarian.

I just disagree with their methods, and their association with some extremist groups/individuals which I have linked to before.

SOME of their methods. I'm out.

These ads represent just one more instance of PETA's hypocritical methods of serving their own agenda, namely, making money:
http://www.activistcash.com/organization_financials.cfm/oid/21

It's been well-documented that many of the models/actresses in PETA's campaigns enjoy, wear and sell products made from animals. They regularly exploit children, animals and sick people in addition to women's bodies to get people to send in cash.

This opinion is not a comment on vegetarianism.

http://www.petakillsanimals.com

Reading all these comments made me remember all over again how much I love feministing! As a passionate vegan and feminist, how wonderful to find a sensible discussion of this insane issue. I'm still shocked by this weird subset of misogynist vegans, and had to process it all on my blog here: http://lagusta.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/feminist-radio-yo-also-fun-vegan-infighting/

I haven't gone through all the comments, but let me just say as a vegan and feminist I am disgusted! To me the two are so intertwined. I see the power-over oppression of women as being very similar to the treatment of animals in our society. This perversion and seperation of the two movements really makes me sad. This is anything but progress...obviously.