As a survivor of disordered eating, I am hyper-conscious of diets disguised as anything else. My sister-in-law is vegetarian, and she explained to me that it's because "meat makes her feel fat." Putting aside the psychological analysis of "fat" as a feeling, this rationale makes vegetarianism a diet for diet's sake. It's difficult to deconstruct why someone is on a diet, but this book clearly sets forth the idea that veganism is for "skinny bitches." Ugh.

When I went vegan I gained ten pounds, and to be perfectly honest, I thought that cutting out animal products was a shortcut to thin. It wasn't.

There are plenty of good reasons to cut down on animal products or cut them out completely, but luring people in with promises of weight loss is pretty deceptive. I'm sure the book outlines how one can eat healthy and vegan at the same time, but it seems like it's designed to appeal to the type of people who are looking for an easy formula to magically lose weight. A lot of people who stick to the diet will probably lose weight, but that's a hella dumb reason to go vegan.

I'm going to write my own diet book called The Yellow Diet, and you can only eat things that are yellow. Watch the pounds melt away!

I was a vegetarian for 7 years because I'm an animal rights advocate. Weight didn't even factor in when I made the decision to cut out meat. When I brought meat back it was because I was on a band trip to China and the vegetarian options were lacking. I was basically trying to live off of white rice, which didn't really offer much nutrition and definitely didn't supply enough energy to be a tourist and perform in a 90-minute marching band show (in case there were any doubts about this, marching band is physically demanding and can be extraordinarily grueling, especially in unfavorable conditions).

I fully support anyone's decision to go vegetarian or vegan. But you've got to do it for the right reasons, and you've got to do your research so you can stay healthy while doing it.

I am exhausted by how often veganism is pegged as being "extreme" or impossible to negotiate without lots of research and effort. An omnivore is not guaranteed healthy eating, and plenty of meat eaters have eating habits that could be described as extreme (as in processed, fatty, restrictive, sugary, etc.) Please can we stop paying lip service to this idea that vegans somehow require extensive knowledge in order to maintain their diet? Everyone would benefit from knowing and understanding more about what they eat and what they should be eating to stay healthy.

Darn it, you made me dig up my old TypePad username and password for this. I can't read this without chiming in.

Automatically distrusting a woman's motives for eating a vegetarian or vegan diet is akin to thinking of women who get abortions as "victims." Women should be trusted to make their own decisions, and you know that. (Naturally, every person has nagging social pressures applied to her in potentially damaging ways, including the absurd expectation that all women need to be thin and stay home and pump out babies. But then we're talking about free will, which is a diversion more obtuse than this topic necessitates.)

As a fit vegan woman who who also reads up on fat acceptance literature, I detect an unfortunate "us vs. them" undercurrent in FA text; the assumption is that women who are thin are either hungry all the time, aren't getting enough nutrients, or choose a lifestyle conducive to fitness in order to achieve a socially-accepted definition of beauty. The thrust of FA is to judge women and men based on their personalities and actions, not on their appearances, but a small number of FA advocates twist this into judging small women based on their appearances. If real women have curves, does not being curvy mean I'm not a real woman? No one has the authority to define what a woman needs to do or look like in order to be "authentically" feminine.

I completely believe that veganism (or any restrictive diet) is abused by some for aesthetic side-effects. But your suspicions about vegan women are patronizing and insulting, and contribute to a culture in which woman have to look or act a certain way to pass muster. This distrust also undercuts the dedication to animal rights, environmental health, and personal health that most vegan women display.

P.S. I ate cake for breakfast yesterday. Even vegan woman know how to live it up.

And let me preemtively clarify that I do not confuse "thinness" for "fitness." They are very, very different.

I've been a vegetarian and on-again/off-again vegan for seven years, and I agree with faithlesswondergirl - the only difficult part of being vegan is giving up cheese (well, for me) and dealing with an unsympathetic and misunderstanding society. I eat the way I do for ethical and environmental reasons, and also because I feel healthier when I'm vegan. While I understand that some people use veganism to cover up eating disorders, I don't appreciate the stereotype that every vegan must be hiding something.

I agree that weight loss is a very bad reason to go vegan, but I have to disagree that veganism is a "very extreme diet". First of all, it's not a diet at all; it's an entire lifestyle and philosophy that includes not only what we eat, but what we wear, what we put on our faces, and even how we speak and relate to the world. Second, vegan eating is not particularly restrictive unless you want it to be. I own more than 12 cookbooks and make a different dinner almost every night; you'd be amazed at what variety is possible, even without animal products. I have been vegan for over a year and have not lost a pound, nor do I want to.

I have to agree with Rebecca B. that, while there certainly may be some women who use their "veganism" as an excuse to limit their eating, we should not automatically distrust the motivations of female vegans. I know a lot of vegans, both online and in real life, and we come in all shapes and sizes, but we are all to a person motivated by a desire for change and a respect for all sentient life.

As an abolitionist vegan I've had a problem with the Skinny Bitch book since it came out. I don't like the idea of trying to covert people to veganism by promising weight loss. First, veganism is much more than a diet, it's a lifestyle that extends to clothing, household products, personal hygene products, etc.

I've heard a few people talk about how many vegans this book has created, but I have to wonder first, how many are actually vegan v/s just being strict vegetarian, in other words have they actually taken it beyond diet. And secondly, how long is their veganism going to last? Do they cheat like so many do on diets? Will they stop when they've lost enough weight? This isn't real veganism.

I wish more people could feel comfortable talking about their true reasons for being vegan, compassion and the belief that sentient beings who can feel pain and fear deserve the right to freely live out their lives, be it human animals or non-human animals. But instead a lot of people seem like they're afraid to say that they care about animals out of fear of either pissing people off or being made fun of. So instead they try to take the health route which doesn't really educate anyone on the real problems.

One of my favorite quotes is by Alice Walker and is one of the first things I read that made me start thinking about why I viewed human animals as being more deserving of life than non-human animals.

The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men.

BTW, I should probably also point out that I've been vegan for years now and still weigh close to 200lbs. Losing weight is about eating less calories than you burn and exercising. I wish people would realize that this is the only safe and effective way to do it and forget about starving themselves or going on dangerous and unhealthy fad/crash diets.

I have honestly never heard of being skinny as a reason for being vegan. And if women give that reason, it seems like more of a food problem than a problem with being vegan. Today a friend of mine said she thought she should cut out bagels! I was shocked. Sure they have a lot of carbs and calories but you need calories! I always look at the nutrition values of the bagels I eat and think wow, iron, protein, omega-3 etc etc. I wonder how women get this attitude.

I read through this book one day at the book store, I was very offended by the tone of "skinny bitch", I felt as if it aimed to shame me into being vegan and skinny. I am a vegetarian, and I know many people who are vegan and vegetarian, but none of them do it to lose weight; they do it to develop a more humane and healthy lifestyle. I do think being vegan is more of a challenge than being a vegetarian, and if I was to do it, I would want to consult a nutritionist. While I understand the poster's concern due to her own experience, I don't think that it is fair to relate this to any woman who chooses to be vegan.

As a vegetarian (though not a vegan), I think beatricious and Rebecca B. make some important points about veganism not being the "extreme diet" lots of people claim it is. And I also agree that lots of people make ridiculous assumptions about vegans, and vegetarians in general.

But on the other hand, I don't think Samhita's original post was designed to offend or dismiss vegans-- despite the unfortunate choice of the word "extreme." As others have pointed out, meat-eaters need to pay closer attention to what they eat if they want to be healthy too, just as Samhita says vegans should. But the larger point is about using a ridiculous and destructive beauty standard (skinny=attractive) to sell this particular way-of-life. The reasons for becoming a vegetarian or vegan are varied, of course, but in general relate to ethical concerns, environmental activisim, or the individual's health-- those are the issues that should be promoted, and not the implicit promise that veganism will make a woman look like one of those ultra-thin supermodels who are always on magazine covers. I think that's the larger point-- veganism, as Samhita says, "can work really well" (in a variety of ways-- both for the individual and the culture), but it's not a "cure" for having a normal, healthy-looking body.

I wholeheartedly agree with faithlesswondergirl and beatricious. I'm also kind of intrigued by the fact that this book is apparently so popular, yet of all the recommendations for vegan books and cookbooks I've gotten, that one has never come up, and I'd in fact never heard of it. The recommendations I do see are Vive Le Vegan!, How it all Vegan, Veganomicon, and--of course--Vegan Cupcakes Take Over the World. (Among other things!)

It is a very extreme diet that needs supplements to make sure you are not deficient in nutrients. It is frustrating, the lack of real nutritional information available
As a healthy vegan woman, I'm a little offended by those assumptions. There is only one nutrient that is commonly deficient in a well-balanced vegan diet. As well, there is plenty of real nutritional information available! Especially as vegetarianism and veganism grow more popular, there are many cookbooks, websites, forums, and other resources with all kinds of helpful information.

So, I can see why there's tension between feminism and the dieting industry, but I don't understand why that translates into tension between feminism and veganism. I have issues with the "skinny bitch" books as both a feminist and as a vegan foodie who's not into packaged meat substitutes. I don't feel veganism is extremely restrictive--especially with all of the amazing vegan cookbooks out these days! And the only supplement you really can't get from plants/bacteria/fungi is vitamin B12, and a lot of brands of soymilk are B12-fortified!

I have read the "skinny bitch" book and have several friends who follow the rules in the book. It does promote veganism but is NOT an extreme diet by any means for weight loss purposes. The authors write that they used the term "skinny bitch" as an eye catching and trendy title to sell books. They explain that weight loss is the result of living a healthy and active lifestyle, and that the American diet is filled with unhealthy tendencies. Both of the authors are vegans, but not strictly for weight loss purposes. They even go so far to say that being skinny is not nearly as important as being healthy and staying away from animal products. I am a little disappointed in this post today because I feel that it took a surface understanding of the book and made a general argument about women and weight loss. Otherwise, I love feministing.com and I will continue to read it everyday. I just wanted to give my perspective on this issue.

I have read the "skinny bitch" book and have several friends who follow the rules in the book. It does promote veganism but is NOT an extreme diet by any means for weight loss purposes. The authors write that they used the term "skinny bitch" as an eye catching and trendy title to sell books. They explain that weight loss is the result of living a healthy and active lifestyle, and that the American diet is filled with unhealthy tendencies. Both of the authors are vegans, but not strictly for weight loss purposes. They even go so far to say that being skinny is not nearly as important as being healthy and staying away from animal products. I am a little disappointed in this post today because I feel that it took a surface understanding of the book and made a general argument about women and weight loss. Otherwise, I love feministing.com and I will continue to read it everyday. I just wanted to give my perspective on this issue.

As a vegan, I have to admit I get a perverse pleasure from hearing someone encourage me to lose weight. Clearly, if only I had a healthy diet, I could be thin *just like they are.* Then, when I tell them I'm a vegan, I get to watch them try to process the fact that I'm an overweight vegan, since it's obviously true that fat people eat only ice cream and vegans eat only spinach. The end result, oddly, is usually a vaguely confused, "Well, you look pretty healthy." It is *so much fun* hearing that conclusion from someone who clearly started the conversation trying to convince me that I might keel over and die within the next hour.

As a vegan, I have to admit I get a perverse pleasure from hearing someone encourage me to lose weight. Clearly, if only I had a healthy diet, I could be thin *just like they are.* Then, when I tell them I'm a vegan, I get to watch them try to process the fact that I'm an overweight vegan, since it's obviously true that fat people eat only ice cream and vegans eat only spinach. The end result, oddly, is usually a vaguely confused, "Well, you look pretty healthy." It is *so much fun* hearing that conclusion from someone who clearly started the conversation trying to convince me that I might keel over and die within the next hour.

I am so over this trumped up problem between veganism, vegetarianism, and feminism- it is yet another example of "x makes you a good _____ (feminist, woman, activist, etc) and y makes you a bad ____ " I understand that feminism is not all things to all people, and that these types of conversations are important to the ongoing exploration and expression of feminism in our individual and collective lives.That said, the amount of hostility expressed towards vegetarians and vegans (by all kinds of people) never ceases to amaze me. A well rounded vegan diet is just as if not better for you than any other well rounded diet. I have know people who practice veganism and are all different shapes and sizes.

Rather than be on the defensive for my own choice to eat a vegetarian diet, I would like to take the question back to the critics:

What is it about veganism and vegetarianism that you find so threatening?

I've been a healthy vegan feminist woman for more than five years now (and a vegetarian for fifteen). My reasons for going vegan had absolutely nothing to do with weight. Also, as many others pointed above, I don't find a vegan diet very restrictive (the only thing I am careful to supplement is B12), and being vegan is definitely about more than just what one eats. So, yes, I was a bit offended by this post as well.

It's just funny how being vegan and feminist puts one on a double defensive. It is always I who am the "weird" one and have to explain my reasons for being vegan and/or feminist.

As Laura pointed out, the real tension here is between feminism and the dieting industry.
I take offense to the idea that one should be suspicious of vegan women's motives and that the diet is extreme--it's not.
As a vegan with a (distant) history of disordered eating, I've found that veganism has helped me overcome a lot of my fear of food. I'm making compassionate choices when I eat, which makes food a positive thing to me. Also, because a healthy vegan diet requires some cooking (any healthy diet requires cooking, but omnivores have many prepared options), I started learning to cook, learn about new vegetables and grains, nutrition...and getting creative with food!
Two years after going vegan, food has become a source of nourishment, fun and compassion--instead of terror.
Veganism is not about deprivation or thinness by any means. For me, it's been about positivity.

I am disgusted, but not entirely surprised, by someone "selling" veganism as a route to weight-loss. I think that's pretty damn insulting to people actual vegans who choose to live this way actually.

People who are vegans, I wouldn't get too up in arms about the choice of the word "extreme" and comments about deficiencies. As someone said, most people who eat omnivorously have completely inadequate diets (I know I do!), taking away meat and meat by-products is huge.

As someone who was a vegatarian (not vegan but I didn't eat anything with gelatine or cheese with meat... crap, I can't remember what it's called, y'know) from 9 years old to 16 I know how hard it sometimes was just for me. Back then you practically couldn't go to dinner unless it was a Hare Krishna restaurant or something, and most snack foods contain some sort of meat or animal byproduct.

Oh, one more thing. While I respect veganism and vegetarianism and get extremely shitty at people's attitudes, and became a vegetarian as a child because of my disgust at intensive farming practices (I do try and get free range meat whereever possible now), being omnivorous has nothing to do with animals being "for" us. Despite removing ourselves from the "wild" in a pretty extreme way, we are still part of a food chain and we naturally kill and eat animals. The only unnatural thing is that we eat waaaaay too much meat, it's just ridiculous.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble

cassie,
that's fresh. love your story.

viceabbess,
i think sami finds veganism so threatening because the hottest man she's ever known was vegan for 13 years.

generally...
i hear most folks on here... i've done the vegan thing for a minute... now i'm on some other tip, where i figure certain agricultural practices are a lot more harmful and life-denying than, say, wild fishing.

all that said, i agree with the posters who say that a well-balanced vegan diet is no more difficult to achieve than a well-balanced omnivorous diet and is certainly easier than a well-balanced meat-n-potatoes diet (of which so many in my fam are adherents).

also, on the note that it's disingenuous to advertise a lifestyle change (veganism) by promoting it as a road to skinny bitchism, jess's first (of soon-to-be many) book's cover is something of a bait-and-switch. there are certain parallels there. that said, restrictive diets for the wrong reasons can be very harmful and the power of reinforcing body image pressures cannot be understated.

i think where danger enters is that, when anything's done for the wrong reasons, it can be harmful. even exercise, probably the most overwhelmingly good thing one could do for one's body, can be abused by folks doing it for unhealthy reasons, with dire consequences.

as far as supplements are concerned, and this is the end of my rant, i've found that a balanced diet of whole foods with ample leafy vegetables, a wide variety of colorful foods, and whole grains can easily make up for any sort of "deficiencies" in a vegan diet. this kind of approach to getting nutrients, while more work-intensive, is also more healthy than using supplements to fill the gaps, as there are many nutrients and interactions in natural foods for which gnc cannot make up (oh, and a lot of the veggie-based pills [ie, no dairy or meat components] smell disgusting).

heights and blessings,
puck

fenris,

two things... one, you just made me miss that free krishna temple food!

two, i think the comment about animals being "for us" is a reference to very common perceptions about why plants and animals exist. many people actually do hold the attitude that plants and other animals exist solely for the pleasure of people and even eronneously interpret the bible to support this claim.

it doesn't mean every person feels this way and it doesn't mean that our relationship to vegetation is any more healthy (look at the amount of pesticide cotton farming - not even a food - is responsible for driving into us soil, or the extreme salinization effects as a result of irresponsible soy farming)

The assumption that a healthy vegan diet is inherently complicated whereas a meat-inclusive diet is inherently easy really needs to end. I started studying nutrition long before I went vegan, and I knew I didn't need to worry much about nutrition as a vegan because if you're already watching your health it's easier to make sure you get all your healthy foods as a vegan than as a carnist. Just about everyone in the western world needs to eat more vegetables, fruits, and whole grains, and boy is that easy when those are the some of the stars of your diet instead of the chores you dread.

The average vegan is lacking in less than half as many nutrients than the average American, so let's face it, better knowledge on nutrition is important for EVERYONE, vegan or not.

Just speaking from personal experience, I have to say that I certainly have come across women who used veganism to thinly veil eating disorders. I had a roommate whose daily diet consisted of three cups of miso soup. She'd often mention her veganism if someone commented on how little food she ate, as if the point was to consume small amounts of food. For her the "I-can't-eat-that-I'm-vegan"
reason became her escape clause for not having to eat much of anything at all.

Interestingly, if offered something that actually *was* vegan, she'd say, "I'm stuffed, I ate miso today." As if BROTH were the only thing one needed to be healthy and satisfied. So I don't think the point of the post is all that far-fetched in SOME instances.

That said, I have of course also known vegans with big collections of cookbooks who ate varied, nutritious, tasty meals.

You know, for me, the issue at hand is more about SKINNY than vegan, vegetarian, bitch or otherwise...

Why not "healthy bitch in the kitch?" There is a reason that the word "skinny" was chosen, and it's because it attracts people. It reinforces the skinny=good ideology. If the word skinny had no bearing on the sales of the book, they wouldn't have included it... "bitch in the kitch."

Furthermore, linking "skinny bitch" with veganism only reinforces the idea that veganism is for weightloss or to hide an eating-disorder. Veganism and vegetarianism have their merits, and it is unfortunate that the author chose to title the book that way, and add those undertones...

Glad to see smart vegans weighing in here.

In the first 5 years of being vegan I put on 30lbs. It's definitely not a one-way ticket to skinnyville: olive oil and nuts and avocados and potatoes and olives and chocolate soy icecream and chips... there are so many delicious fatty vegan foods.

It's not difficult or 'extreme' to be vegan anymore, unless you're living in a remote area and have no access to fresh food or the internet. Like Antarctica, or a developing nation. I've been vegan for 7 years and in at least 7 different countries, and I've never once found it a burden - at the most, it's been an adventure and a great learning experience.

The assumption that a healthy vegan diet is inherently complicated whereas a meat-inclusive diet is inherently easy really needs to end.

I disagree. In US culture, eating as a vegan is more complicated than living as a meat-eater or vegetarian. That's because our culinary culture is very meat/animal-product centered; it's not a judgment on the value of veganism--it's an assessment of veganism's relationship to our culture. I live in big cities and always have, and finding more than one vegetarian option on a menu is never a problem (when I'm planning a meal out with friends--I myself eat meat), but finding a restaurant with even one vegan option is.

Anecdotally, I know plenty of vegetarians, but the few vegans I've known all had eating disorders that they were masking. That doesn't mean that all or even most vegans are, but I don't think that's what Samhita's claiming. She's noting that people with eating disorders can and do use veganism as a cover for their self-harm, and promoting veganism in a way that plays into that dynamic is immoral and irresponsible.

Criticizing this book without reading it is a little bit like the Catholic Church's criticism of The Golden Compass, or people who tried to say Harry Potter encourages kids to become witches or whatever. Don't knock it before you've read it, yo. The authors of Skinny Bitch explicitly state in the book that the end goal is not vegan = skinny. The title is supposed to get people's attention, sell books and present an argument to an audience that would not normally expose themselves to that argument. From what I gather, their goal is to end cruelty to animals - not to make people feel bad about themselves or start eating disorders disguised as social consciousness.

(Of course, I find it impossible to be vegan or even truly vegetarian - no cheese OR sushi??? - but its overall 'wake up and pay attention/think about what you're eating' message is helpful.)

Actually, these ladies aren't the only ones promoting veganism as a weight-loss strategy: Dr. McDougall does as well. http://www.drmcdougall.com/

Thanks for all the comments. Like I said in the post, with proper research it is a very healthy diet and when I was doing it well, it felt great!

There are a lot of issues coming up for me, because I agree that assuming a meat based diet is easy and a vegan one is difficult is problematic, but at the same time, I will insist that I think a vegan diet is extreme.

And I live in the Bay where vegan options are plentiful. It is extreme because when someone brings cake into the office you can't eat it or when you go to your grandma's house in India, you can't eat her fish stew.

Veganism occurs naturally in many cultures around the world, but it is not called a movement as it is in the US. And that movement in the US is usually consistent with being priviledged and white and having access to the information and support needed to eat a vegan diet. Sure I have seen this to be different in certain parts of rasta and Hindu culture, say in Brooklyn NY or in Oakland, but in general, you have to know what is up and have access to do it properly.

And I think it is awesome that so many of you have not become vegan to lose weight or to maintain it, but in my experience, it has been used to moderate weight and cravings and to punish yourself in new ways for eating.

Again, this is only my experience. This is a topic I have many mixed feelings on and like I said I was vegan for TWO YEARS and it wasn't just because I wanted to be thin.

t me address the question posed by viceabbess. I couldn't care less who eats what, as long as they aren't making me eat it. As an agricultural scientist, I range from amused to irritated by people who think veganism is a magical cure-all. That's not to say that reducing meat consumption is bad, I just don't believe it is feasible or desirable to eliminate meat production. The thing that pushes my buttons is the animal rights activism. Granted, it's more of a nuisance to scientists who work with vertebrates, since the idiots in the movement tend to care more about bunnies than beetles - although there are a select few who want to liberate the bees from slavery. Maybe that pisses a lot of people off...but you asked.

The point is absurd regarding eating disorders. There are also tons of women with eating disorders who do eat animal products, but we don't equate a diet including meat with eating disorders. All of this stems from misunderstanings and resentment towards the vegan movement. Clearly, Samhita never fully appreciated the reasoning behind veganism or she would not be an EX-vegan at this point. I'm sorry, but I have trouble taking anything seriously from someone who knows the suffering that animals go through and then chooses to consume animal products out of convenience. Would you do the same regarding clothing made by child labor? It boils down to lazyness trumping conviction.

Many fine points have been made so I'll keep my response brief.

Samhita, despite your response in the comments, I think you need to amend using the word "extreme" in the actual post. If a mainstream organization like the American Dietetic Association can say that a well-planned vegan diet is healthy for all, including pregnant women, your word choice is just unsound.

Also, the only nutritional supplement vegans need is vitamin B12, which can be taken in vitamin form or from eating fortified foods like cereals, grains, and nondairy milks. All other nutritional needs can be met eating a plant-based diet. That includes protein, iron, zinc, and other nutrients.

Additionally, while you and EG point out that veganism is extreme or difficult to adhere to because many cultures are meat-centered, do you then propose that feminists not be feminists because the society they live in is patriarchal and therefore being feminist can be, well, so darn inconvenient sometimes?

Samhita, I'm neither white nor privileged and that is why veganism and animal rights makes sense to me. It makes sense not to exploit animals just because I can. In fact, my involvement in feminism was a clear progression to the awakening I've had in terms of animal suffering. My working class boyfriend has been vegan for well over a decade. So that white and privileged arguement does not hold water with me. After all, beans are super cheap!

Have any of the Feministing posters read the Sexual Politics of Meat?

Finally, I gained 15 pounds after I stopped eating land animals. And I lost 46 pounds when I joined Weight Watchers a few years ago and ate a ton of meat. Those vegan cookies are off the hook at 400 calories each!

"[Veganism] is extreme because when someone brings cake into the office you can't eat it..."

LOLLLLZ! This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

But seriously, I agree with Rebecca B. that your suspicions about vegan women are patronizing and insulting. And I'll go ahead and add disgusting to that list as well.

Yay! Someone said it's okay to be skinny! Seriously though, the term does need to be reclaimed, along with all the other labels slapped on women of every shape and size.

I switched to a vegetarian whole foods diet several years ago, for spiritual reasons, and also for various health reasons, none of which pertained to my weight. Part of the time I followed a vegan diet. I own several wonderful vegan/raw cookbooks, each of which is based on feeling good, having more energy, etc. Too bad they couldn't have marketed a vegan cookbook to women without adding in the negativity. And what's the point of marketing a cookbook to women specifically anyway? Oh right, because we are supposed to do all the cooking and be concerned with our respective weights.

Anyway, I generally kept to myself about my diet, and I met ridiculous amounts of slander a few times, because evryone assumed I was doing it to lose weight, even though I am a very petite person. The ironic thing is that I gained weight since I changed my diet. To me, it was always about the state of my health, not my size.

Actually, the real problem that I have with this book is that the authors throw in some wildly unsubstantiated ideas about nutrition in general. (A couple of these are noted in the review.)

I'd also like to add that I began eating vegan a few months ago and while I don't know if I agree with the characterization of it as an extreme diet, it does require effort. It has had a big impact on where my girlfriend and I can eat dinner -- we used to go out frequently for brunch and dinner, and we've stopped going to certain restaurants because there's nothing in them for me to eat. She's an omnivore and doesn't like vegan cooking, so we rarely eat at vegan restaurant.

In short; my experience has NOT been that eating a healthy omnivorous diet is equivalent to eating vegan. Eating vegan has restricted my options a great deal.

I'm happier and feel much better eating this way, but let's not pretend that it's super easy to eat out with an omnivore when you're vegan.

Ok Samhita,

I'm sorry but I'm really offended at this post.

First, i do not agree that its fair to joke around by calling your friends "skinny bitches" if in fact they are of a smaller size. Some women cannot help it and I'm one of those women and I hate it when my friends who are no bigger than I am (but perceptually believe they are bigger) feel like they can bludgeon me around with "anorexia" jokes or by pointing out non-stop that I have no ass. We also live in a culture where you not only have to be skinny but certian parts of ur body should have some weight to them, eg, ur butt. Well, sorry! Its pretty hurtful and it makes me really self conscious. Which means to say that, just because someone percieves themselves to be overweight they have no right whatsoever to bludgeon those they believe are not!

Second, I've been vegetarian for 6 years and recently partly vegan out of no choice, because I'm lactose intolerant. I constantly face criticism about the nutritional value of my diet, I constantly deal with people who believe that i'm unhealthy because i'm eating differently, or that I'm doing it for motives other than compassion for animals. Now, I have another criticism to face. According to you I should be susceptible to the new stereotype that vegans/ vegetarians are disguising an eating disorder and are to be submitted to questioning according to the stereotype. Isnt this another form of monitoring women's choices and lifestyles? I'd love to see how well you'd fare questioning a person of any other race as to whether they truly arent concealing a stereotype associated with that race! How is this any different?
And if you believe that vegan/vegetarian women are unhealthy how do you explain the fact that going on a vegetarian diet is enough to cut down by 50% your chances at any disease out there? Try telling that to my sister who just went under surgery for colon cancer, one of those diseases that is caused predominantly by a meat eating diet.

Dont get me wrong, i find the title of this book offensive- we shouldnt be using titles with the words "skinny" and "bitch" on them as being trendy- both words are offensive. But i feel like the rest of the rant was entirely unrelated to the book's title and catered only to your stereotypes of vegan women. Feministing is exhibiting some form of weight-watch policy recently where everyone and everything seems to be pulled appart to see whether its instructing some form of eating disorder- How about we stop being so anxious about eating disorders since just its mentioning makes more women believe that they are common and that its okay if they have an eating disorder too!? Even if you say its bad, if you increase its normalcy, more women are going to get eating disorders.

If you had eating disordered behavior while vegan, its because YOU have tendancies towards eating disorders. It has nothing to do with veganism. Veganism is not an easy way to keep one's weight down, and to imply that is ignorant and irresponsible. I had half a bag of chocolate covered pretzels for breakfast this morning, how is that going to help me lose weight? Just because YOUR mind is fixated on eating disordered behavior does not mean that all or even a majority of vegan women's minds work the same way. For you to say that veganism needs supplements to make sure one is not deficient in nutrients further shows how uneducated you are. If YOU had an eating disordered perspective, you might have "needed" supplements, because YOU were probably not eating right. A vegan diet is rich in CALORIES, vitamins, minerals, protein, carbohydrates and other nutrients. I'm 24 and have learned that veganism is a great way to eat properly and healthily. All it takes is a little common sense and a little knowledge about the foods we put into our body. Its unfortunate that at 30, you are still inept and far from figuring it out.

Please don't project YOUR issues with eating disordered behaviors on veganism. Please don't imply that because YOU could not get veganism right, that there is something nutritionally wrong with veganism. Again, its extremely irresponsible, and by alluding that those things are directly related to veganism and not the individual attempting a vegan lifestyle, you lose credibility.

Ooh, my second comment in one thread! Go, me!

As far as a vegan diet limiting your choices - three years ago I moved from New York, mecca of vegan goodness, to East Texas, mecca of Tex-Mex and deer hunting. And while the change in location caused me to go from vegan to vegetarian and back again, it wasn't because I couldn't resist all the lard filled beans and burger stands. It's because I'm lazy. Being vegan here is tough, but it's do-able. And it encourages me to cook more at home, and invite people over for delicious vegan meals, which is better for my health, my wallet, and my social life.

And as far as veganism being a movement based on privlege and being about to choose what you eat and buy - I won't deny that. But if I'm in a place where I can make that choice, then I feel I owe it to my health and the planet to do so. Plus I make a point not to judge people who have different diets and lifestyles than me, despite the fact that they rarely return the favor.

The title is supposed to get people's attention, sell books and present an argument to an audience that would not normally expose themselves to that argument.

Yeah - by exploiting women's insecurities about their weight. That's a morally shitty marketing tactic, no matter how noble their end goal is.

(And it's not just the title, here's how they market the book on their website):

If you can't take one more day of self-loathing, you're ready to hear the truth: You cannot keep shoveling the same crap into your mouth every day and expect to lose weight.

Authors Rory Freedman and Kim Barnouin are your new smart-mouthed girlfriends who won't mince words and will finally tell you the truth about what you're feeding yourself. And they'll guide you on making intelligent and educated decisions about food. They may be bitches, but they are skinny bitches. And you'll be one too-after you get with the program and start eating right.

and in reply to stanna, who said:

"Actually, these ladies aren't the only ones promoting veganism as a weight-loss strategy: Dr. McDougall does as well. http://www.drmcdougall.com/"

The McDougall diet is NOT synonymous with veganism. I'm vegan and I eat nothing NEAR to what McDougall suggests for weight loss. Is the Atkins diet is not the same thing as being an omnivore? Please educate yourself.

If A (veganism) is sometimes caused by B (disordered eating), that doesn't mean B (disordered eating) is always a precondition for A (veganism).

To believe that B=A is a logical fallacy.

I don't know your history with regards to veganism, but you've just put down an entire group of people.

Perhaps you should consider making an announcement that you don't mean "all vegans are disordered eaters" and apologize.

xherbivorex: The McDougall diet is a "vegan" diet...it involves no animal products. Just because it doesn't stand for "veganism" doesn't mean the diet itself isn't vegan, i.e., involved no animal products. It may be different from your type of being vegan, but its still vegan. And this thread has been really hilarious for confirming a lot of vegan stereotypes.

Clearly, Samhita never fully appreciated the reasoning behind veganism or she would not be an EX-vegan at this point. I'm sorry, but I have trouble taking anything seriously from someone who knows the suffering that animals go through and then chooses to consume animal products out of convenience. Would you do the same regarding clothing made by child labor? It boils down to lazyness trumping conviction.

And that's why meat-eaters are sometimes hostile to the idea of veganism. There you go. No acknowledgment that different people require different things in their diets, no acknowledgment of differing metabolisms, no acknowledgment of the importance of cultural traditions surrounding food. Just pure, obnoxious self-righteousness.

while you and EG point out that veganism is extreme or difficult to adhere to because many cultures are meat-centered, do you then propose that feminists not be feminists because the society they live in is patriarchal and therefore being feminist can be, well, so darn inconvenient sometimes?

Your point would be valid only if either Samhita or I were arguing that nobody should be vegan. Since we're not, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

FemiDancer,

Which stereotypes would those be? The ones about how we stand up for animal rights? The ones about how we don't like being misrepresented? The ones about how tell you a vegan diet is healthy (and PS look in a medical journal you'll see that they agree)?

You seem to be missing the point here. The point is that the orginal post served to perpetuate negative stereotypes about vegans.

Your comment regarding the McDougal diet being vegan is pointless. Only eating blueberries would be vegan too, but that doesn't mean that most vegans would suggest it.

wow.

i mean, really... not all animal rights folks are wingnuts who prize "bunnies [over] beetles"...

joselle's point about beans is pretty keen. i mean, on one hand, i've heard vegetarianism and veganism shouted down as a diet of privilege. here, on the other hand, i've seen the same diets shouted down because they don't make it as convenient to go out to eat, which really hasn't been my first concern in my broker days (during which, i might add, dried beans and rice made up a sizeable amount of my diet).

and, btw, i have lived in the midwest, was vegan the entire time and really didn't have that hard a time beyond the sidelong glances and wait staff asking "but what are you eating?"

i suggest, midwest, that you pick up a couple of cookbooks yourself, it'll be really fun! check some of the titles on here (like the veganomicon, by the post punk kitchen, which i haven't checked out, but their cupcake book rawks).

also, there are a lot of chinese and italian restaurants where i lived in the midwest (northeast ohio) and they had vegan options for days.

nata,

while i think most of what you're saying is really keen and that we need to figure out ways to make people happy in their skin, no matter what shape that skin is in, it's still important to talk about problems.

ignoring eating disorders is not going to make them go away any more than ignoring the wage gap is going to make that go away.

oh, and on the B12 tip, sea vegetables, fermented soy foods and vegetables grown in organic soil (manure) are most likely to provide natural sources.

as far as sami's perspective "boil[ing] down to lazyness trumping conviction", that's insulting and best left out of any discussion. she doesn't have to answer for herself, but she is a very compassionate person and i challenge you, lucretia, to avoid using any products with a history of abuse - ie, not only nothing involving animal products, but nothing that makes use of synthetics produced from petroleum (uh oh, there go 90% of vegan shoe options!), nothing produced in unfair work environments, nothing produced from conventionally farmed cotton (primary pesticide burden in the us), etc., etc., etc.

come off it and lets have a discourse.

yo, and sami, i think that veganism is called a "movement" in the us because everything is called a "movement" in the us. people call musical styles movements... especially young people. one difference here is that vegetarianism is so contrary to meat-n-potatoes america that, whether intended or not, vegetarianism is considered counter-culture and is ascribed certain political characteristics regardless of the individual practicioner's intention.

what does that have to do with people's choices? a lot. what does it have to do with whether or not veganism is a valid diet choice? not much.

further, for clarity, i think it's important to recognize that all of us judge based on our experiences. sami was really honest and forthcoming about why she thinks the things she does and folks here jumped on her, calling that "disgusting." that's an extreme reaction. samhita's honest and open enough to say, "look, i didn't do this for all the right reasons, so i sometimes wonder if other people are doing it for the reasons i was." i think it's important to look at that without immediately jumping to horror.

oh, and eg,
"She's noting that people with eating disorders can and do use veganism as a cover for their self-harm, and promoting veganism in a way that plays into that dynamic is immoral and irresponsible."

word. i would love to see some numbers on this, when compared to other choices.

joselle, keep cooking those beans and rice (the dried beans and rice and homegrown tomato diet definitely carried me through a year or two of extreme irresponsibility)!

evil fizz, since it seems like you've read the book, i, for one, would like to hear more from ya.

heights and blessings

Purly: I never stated that the McDougall diet was not vegan. I stated that veganism is not equal to the McDougall diet, just as omnivorism is not equal to the Atkins diet. Perhaps you did not understand that comparison. Let me simplify it: Grass is green, but everything that is green is not grass. Does that make more sense to you?

And if the comments to this thread proved the stereotypes that vegans aren't eating disordered, then that's awesome. I don't really see anything other than positive, credible and factual information showing that veganism does not promote eating disorders. I see people perpetuating that veganism can be healthy and fat-positive and delicious and easy and fun. I'm totally down for those stereotypes, if that's what you're talking about!

wow.

i mean, really... not all animal rights folks are wingnuts who prize "bunnies [over] beetles"...

joselle's point about beans is pretty keen. i mean, on one hand, i've heard vegetarianism and veganism shouted down as a diet of privilege. here, on the other hand, i've seen the same diets shouted down because they don't make it as convenient to go out to eat, which really hasn't been my first concern in my broker days (during which, i might add, dried beans and rice made up a sizeable amount of my diet).

and, btw, i have lived in the midwest, was vegan the entire time and really didn't have that hard a time beyond the sidelong glances and wait staff asking "but what are you eating?"

i suggest, midwest, that you pick up a couple of cookbooks yourself, it'll be really fun! check some of the titles on here (like the veganomicon, by the post punk kitchen, which i haven't checked out, but their cupcake book rawks).

also, there are a lot of chinese and italian restaurants where i lived in the midwest (northeast ohio) and they had vegan options for days.

nata,

while i think most of what you're saying is really keen and that we need to figure out ways to make people happy in their skin, no matter what shape that skin is in, it's still important to talk about problems.

ignoring eating disorders is not going to make them go away any more than ignoring the wage gap is going to make that go away.

oh, and on the B12 tip, sea vegetables, fermented soy foods and vegetables grown in organic soil (manure) are most likely to provide natural sources.

as far as sami's perspective "boil[ing] down to lazyness trumping conviction", that's insulting and best left out of any discussion. she doesn't have to answer for herself, but she is a very compassionate person and i challenge you, lucretia, to avoid using any products with a history of abuse - ie, not only nothing involving animal products, but nothing that makes use of synthetics produced from petroleum (uh oh, there go 90% of vegan shoe options!), nothing produced in unfair work environments, nothing produced from conventionally farmed cotton (primary pesticide burden in the us), etc., etc., etc.

come off it and lets have a discourse.

yo, and sami, i think that veganism is called a "movement" in the us because everything is called a "movement" in the us. people call musical styles movements... especially young people. one difference here is that vegetarianism is so contrary to meat-n-potatoes america that, whether intended or not, vegetarianism is considered counter-culture and is ascribed certain political characteristics regardless of the individual practicioner's intention.

what does that have to do with people's choices? a lot. what does it have to do with whether or not veganism is a valid diet choice? not much.

further, for clarity, i think it's important to recognize that all of us judge based on our experiences. sami was really honest and forthcoming about why she thinks the things she does and folks here jumped on her, calling that "disgusting." that's an extreme reaction. samhita's honest and open enough to say, "look, i didn't do this for all the right reasons, so i sometimes wonder if other people are doing it for the reasons i was." i think it's important to look at that without immediately jumping to horror.

oh, and eg,
"She's noting that people with eating disorders can and do use veganism as a cover for their self-harm, and promoting veganism in a way that plays into that dynamic is immoral and irresponsible."

word. i would love to see some numbers on this, when compared to other choices.

joselle, keep cooking those beans and rice (the dried beans and rice and homegrown tomato diet definitely carried me through a year or two of extreme irresponsibility)!

evil fizz, since it seems like you've read the book, i, for one, would like to hear more from ya.

heights and blessings

EG,

One more comment for now because I sense this is quickly evolving pointless frustration. So if my culture says it ok to rape and then murder you, that's cool then? Because the meat and dairy industry represents rape and murder. End of story.

someone please erase the double post. sorry.

I'm going to preface this comment with the statement that I'm neither vegan nor vegetarian so the way I read Samhita's post was most likely affected by that.

My original reading on Sami's statement that Vegan is an extreme diet seemed real to me. Many of you have stated that it's not just eating, it's what you wear, what body products you use etc....sounds pretty extreme to me.

My roommate of four years was a vegetarian and our senior year did attempt to be vegan. I do understand that a vegan diet does not automatically equal thin and that it's not just beans. However, my roommate had little money and we were at a college in northwest indiana with virtually no vegan restaurants. My roommate was on a tight budget and lost a drastic amount of weight because all she could eat were beans. she couldn't afford the range of food needed to keep her nutrients up. especailly considering in many areas of the country organic and vegan foods are still much more expensive.

Therefore I interpreted Sami's post as saying that true veganism is a very involved effort and one that is hard to follow without options and money to pay for it. I suppose my roommate could have sacrificed other things to aid in pursuing the lifestyle if it was that important to her but eventually she just went back to vegetarianism.

A note: Atkins is not synonomous with omnivorism because the Atkins diet does not allow eaters to be omnivores. Omnivores eat bread and other complex carbohydrates.

EG,

I'm sorry but if everytime you sat down to eat smth with your non-vegetarian/vegan friends and they noticed you had no meat in your plate they ask, "are you vegetarian?"
If you dare saying the truth, the answer usually is, "Why? I could never do it! How do you do it? Isnt it hard? Well I see you have some egg there on your plate, never thought about the fact that chickens feel pain when they are caged and made to produce eggs? You know its not really good for you! You need your protein, you should eat some meat!" All these things, are inevitably experienced by a vegetarian/vegan person *every single time* (no jokes, its predictable) they eat out with their friends and if you think you cant get any f-ing self righteous on their asses once in a while- you'd explode! If anything, the mere explanation of why you are a vegetarian even if you dont try to criticize the people you are eating with, is bound to make them feel bad. So, the predictable question "why are you vegetarian?" usually leads to a very predictable answer, "I think animals suffer and i dotn want to be part of it." Its the simple truth, but it makes people feel bad.

But not just that, even if you dont say WHY you are vegetarian, you still have to justify to everyone what you are doing to keep urself alive and why you think you are better than them- even though you never make such an assumption (it still happens to me even though i never tell people when they ask me why I am vegetarian), they clearly think that prancing over to the dinner table with meat-free plate means that you are calling them animal killers and fundamentally, evil people. Its just bullying and worse is, I've had times where i couldnt eat because if i had an egg on my plate the person (who was eating meat) made me feel like such a hypocrite for the suffering of chickens that i couldnt finish (or start) my meal and I had to literally get out of there crying (true story). Now you dont experience that because you are not a vegetarian but at this point I've just startd lying to people and telling them i dont want to discuss my lifestyle with them. Its been 6 freaking years of having to explain why and how and more...

I'm also a feminist and a proud supporter of feministing but if i cant even get some compassion here and some understanding- we have to get self righteous, because as you see we have been offended by a post by a feministing contributor has made (where she is self righteous about meat eating), where are we to go? Just asking for some respect. I believe what i believe in, let me to it and dont criticize it and least of all, dont assume I have a pathological disorder.

If my friends were such assholes to me about the way I lived my life, I'd find new friends.

Certainly you can be self-righteous and blow off steam if you want to. But don't expect me not to tell you that you're being obnoxious when you do so. If you want compassion and understanding, being a jerk is not the way to go about getting it.

By the way, Samhita wasn't self-righteous about meat-eating. What she said was that she wasn't a vegan. Do all the vegans here really think that women with eating disorders don't use veganism as a cover? Samhita didn't say that all vegans have eating disorders. She didn't say that vegans should start eating meat. She said that when she meats young women who identify as vegans, she wonders about their method of veganism.

Given the society we live in, is it really so beyond the pale to wonder about the intersection of many women and girls' self-destructive eating habits and restrictive political diets? (I will use the word "restrictive" because as an omnivore, I can eat everything vegans eat, and I can also eat more.)

Lucretia, your rhetoric about rape and murder depends on imbuing animals with the same rights as human beings. "Murder" doesn't mean killing a random life-form; otherwise I'd be commiting murder every time I took antibiotics to clear up strep throat. "Murder" refers to the killing of a human being. Since I reject your first principle, I don't see eating meat and dairy as supporting rape and murder.

One of the things that Alice Waters seems to overlook is that domesticated species are here for human beings, or at least because of human beings, on a basic historical level. Cows didn't evolve naturally; human beings domesticated cow ancestors specifically in order to eat them and drink their milk. Those species would not exist without our interference, and they are not adapted to live in any natural habitat. If we did not continue maintaining them, they'd die.

"One of the things that Alice Waters seems to overlook is that domesticated species are here for human beings, or at least because of human beings, on a basic historical level. Cows didn't evolve naturally; human beings domesticated cow ancestors specifically in order to eat them and drink their milk. Those species would not exist without our interference, and they are not adapted to live in any natural habitat. If we did not continue maintaining them, they'd die."

THIS

Perhaps I'm oversimplifying things but...

Someone puts out a book called Skinny Bitches which is actually a book about veganism.

People buy this book.

Some of the people here have a problem with the wording of this book.

But people chose to buy this book.

I'm not sure what's to be done here.... what's the most extreme view?

Should the authors pull the book off the shelf, apologize to women who may get an eating disorder because of their book? Perhaps we should make a list of words that should be banned?

Ok EG,

Again, people believe what they believe. I certainly dont come to feministing to justify to others why I think animals being killed as murder ( i know you are arguing this out with someone else on this thread but ill jump in, if its ok). Thats just what I feel like it is, thats just how it saddens and gets to me: its a very subjective emotional and visceral experience that I cannot translate to you. We could argue it out, and you could argue it out with any vegetarian out there, but personally, I equate eating animals with some sort of canibalism. Yes that makes no sense to a lot of people! Most people in fact... but thats because I have knowledge of the sensory and emotional (yes) systems of animal behaviour from studying human behaviour according to it (i'm a psych major) and just think that all the signs are loud and clear that they feel pain, that they react just like us. Otherwise, we wouldnt model the entirety of human sexual, behavioural, instinstictual nature on the central nervous systems of mice (since we cant modify people's brains and study them). But if you dont FEEL that way, then you just dont. Its like arguing why I like some form of music over another almost, its very personal.

Let me preface this with: I'm a pro-food-choice vegan. I really have no personal investment in convincing anyone of anything, but I do have a fondness for a good, meaty discussion. And if this is derailing the thread, I apologize. (Although, just putting the word 'vegan' in a title pretty much an invitation for this stuff.)

One of the things that Alice Waters seems to overlook is that domesticated species are here for human beings, or at least because of human beings, on a basic historical level. Cows didn't evolve naturally; human beings domesticated cow ancestors specifically in order to eat them and drink their milk. Those species would not exist without our interference, and they are not adapted to live in any natural habitat. If we did not continue maintaining them, they'd die.

Yes, and with us, they die. I'm pretty sure you're not trying to fool yourself with this, so you realize that even when the meat you eat isn't specifically a young animal, it's an animal that was killed long before it's life would naturally have ended. But, either way, I'm not sure what your point is. We used artificial selection to alter their species. Is that technically true? Yes. Is that pertinent to whether they have rights? Not really. The descent of any individual animal is unrelated to whether or not they have rights, because rights exist outside of the bias of the people providing them. If an animal has rights, it has rights, even if it's evolved along with humans; this is why we given very basic rights (such as the right to food, water, and shelter) to dogs. If an animal doesn't have rights, it doesn't have rights, no matter how much humans were involved. So for vegans the question isn't, "How much have humans altered the gene frequency of this species of animal?" it's, "Given that this animal currently exists, and will until it dies, does it deserve rights?"

Cassie: The point is that if everyone stopped eating meat and dairy product...everyone would stop breeding these animals. The animals that you want to provide rights with would cease to exist if you actually succeed. Isn't it a little ironic that by working for rights for domestic animals (like cows, chicken, and pigs), you are working for their destruction?

"If my friends were such assholes to me about the way I lived my life, I'd find new friends.

Certainly you can be self-righteous and blow off steam if you want to. But don't expect me not to tell you that you're being obnoxious when you do so. If you want compassion and understanding, being a jerk is not the way to go about getting it."

It's easy to say, EG, that if my friends don't agree with me I'll just find new ones, but don't you think that's a little unfair. Perhaps I value my friends and would like them to take the time to understand and respect me, not necessarily agree. Furthermore, where am I supposed to find such friends? I have been vegetarian for 16 years now and is not easy and my boyfriend has been vegan for 8. I am a doctoral student in a very "liberal" department yet I am consistently made to defend my ethics, whether I bring it up or not. And while you certainly have the right to tell other's when you feel that they are being obnoxious, you should probably think about how it makes you feel when anti-feminists say the same to you. People are entitled to their own opinions and I do not try to push mine on others. That said, however, when I live in a world that constantly puts me on the defensive, sometimes I have to make myself heard.

furthermore, just saying that animals are here for people doesn't make it true. That is one way to think about it. Sure, we domesticated animals, but does that mean that they exist for us? Perhaps they would die without our intervention now, but does that mean that it's ok and we should merely accept things as they are? Perhaps righting the wrongs of the past, rather than accepting an unpleasant present would be more useful. And just because an animal is domesticated and requires human intervention does not mean that we do (or should) eat them. We certainly don't eat house cats, dogs, hamsters, etc. I think that it is important to acknowledge that this is an opinion. You believe that animals were put here for people, I believe that living things don't naturally exist in a hierarchy.

Lastly, I will simply repeat a sentiment that has already been expressed. Why are vegetarianism and veganism so threatening?