Wow, I must be doing something wrong then. I'm a thirty-year-old virgin and I'm ridiculously broke. Maybe I need to invest in another hymen. I mean, if one will keep me from being poor, then the more I have, the closer I get to being fabulously wealthy, right?

Oh, wait, I know! I must not have gotten my intact-hymen tax break for the past ... what, fifteen years? C'mon, government, pony up! With my debt, you won't let me go back to school and have that successful future I was promised for not sleeping with every loser to cross my path, so I could definitely use that cash.

(Hey, this not-having-sex thing should come in handy SOMEHOW.)

Are hymens the new graduation watch?

Oh, that was just terrible. I swear, poor impulse control regarding puns will be the death of me. Sorriez.

I think your missing the point just a little. While this ad is incredibly stupid in all sorts of ways, the welfare comment bit is a lot more accurate than you say. Being a 16 year old single mother that hasn't graduated from high school pretty much demands use of the welfare system. No high school dropout of any gender has a decent chance at getting a well paying job, hell, most of them can't get a living wage, especially with a kid to take care of. And because not all women believe in abortions, this is a very real issue for many young mothers.

You know, I clicked on the site to see if they had another billboard with, perhaps, a groom on it. Or someone male. Nope. Of the two billboards they have, both have women on them. And the second billboard has a headless woman. Nice. Why are we the only ones who are expected to be virgins?

jessicarabbit: exactly. WHAT THE HELL??? This just absolutly PROVES how sexist the 'save your virginity or else' theory is. ugh. it literally MAKES ME SICK.

and as for the welfare thing, i think it's ridiculous to say that if you aren't a virgin you are destined to be poor. it's laughable, really. well, moreso if they were kidding.

I've sometimes wondered: if we menfolk had something like a hymen, whose presence would correlate to virginity (so that people would think man-hymen=virgin, even if this rule would have many exceptions in practice), would there then be a similar cult around male "purity" such as there is around female "purity"? I.e. is the cult around female "purity" merely a function of having something by which people think they can verify it?

Or does having that merely re-enforce other tendancies to be obsessed with female "purity" (some of which involve a fear of cuckolding amongst the menfolk)? I wouldn't be too surprised that if in some alternate universe where everything is the same about us human-folk, except that men have hymens too, there wouldn't be some sort of religious ritual around a man loosing his hymen at an early age to a cult prostitute (like they had in old times in our universe) even as women were expected to remain "pure".

I wonder -- has anybody written a sci-fi novel with this as a premise?

Shit, if the greatest "gift" a woman can give me in marriage is a piece of tissue, I don't want it.

Besides, if her virginity is her gift to him, what's his to her?

Das, and if I, as a male, had a piece of tissue to signify virginity, I'd lost it at age seven or something. :X Christ!

Open Sketch,

While not all women "believe in abortions," it may also be the case that many teens simply can't afford them. Medicaid, after all, won't pay for abortions (although it covers the cost of childbirth):

Medicaid was billed for nearly three of every four teen childbirths-with total costs of about $348 million. Private insurers got the bill for 21 percent; 2 percent went to other payers, such as Tricare; and in 3 percent of the cases, the girls had no health insurance.

Source: Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, HCUP,Statistical Brief #31: Childbirth-Related Hospitalizations among Adolescent Girls, 2004.

Don't forget to sign the petition to repeal the discriminatory Hyde Amendment banning the use of federal funds for abortion: http://www.hyde30years.nnaf.org/petition.html

ProFeministMale
"Besides, if her virginity is her gift to him, what's his to her?"

exactly. I want the answer to this question. oh wait.. the woman gives her BODY, and the man gets her... a necklace? a ring? a card? hmmm..

Honestly, if these people are so concerned about teens getting pregnant and dropping out of school - THEY'D TEACH THEM COMPREHENSIVE SEX ED, so this shit doesn't happen.

I honestly think pro-lifers get giddy everytime a teen gets pregnant, because they see it as another point for abstinence education ...

But that's fucked up thinking.

And Kmari - I'll give you my ...err ...children if you give me your virginity. Fair deal, eh?

I hate that photo. Besides the abundance of white, the girl looks young. No more than 18, for sure. And she's all curled up around those flowers in her lap, with her head bowed. I might be reading too much into it, but it still bothers me. She's so subserviant (spelling?) and passive looking.

But, really, what else should I expect from these people? Her body and hymen are GIFTS after all, it's not like she should embrace her dirty shameful sexuality and posess self-confidence!

Anyone look at the website?

MAYBE I can see the logic in earlier date of sexual intercourse = less education, because when people are young, like still in high school or middle school, and they have been given abstinence-only education, they can wind up having a kid and dropping out/not going to college to care for said kid, thus lowering the overall numbers.

And yeah, more teen marriages end in divorce because most teens either don't really know what they want to do with their life or are pushed into marriage by parents.

But that bit about couples being more likely to divorce if they live together before marriage is BULLSHIT. Maybe numbers are skewed because people who don't live together usually don't believe in divorce anyway, but couples who live together for a long time before marrying are more likely to break up BEFORE they marry, thus finding someone that they are more likely to be happy with in the long run because they find out if they can stand to live with the person first.

Also, obviously the man gets the woman's virginity as a gift and the woman gets a man to support her and give her lots of little Christian babies.

"I hate that photo. Besides the abundance of white, the girl looks young. No more than 18, for sure."

Bingo! One thing I've noticed about the wait-until-marriage crowd is that most (not all, but most) assume they will get married very young. The longer they go without marrying, the more likely they are to change their stance on pre-marital sex.

ugh.This whole campaign is disgusting for so many reasons. The real "gift" they're implying has nothing to do with the hymen and everything to do with female subservience. Enforced inexperience means no real ability to be a sexual agent. This "gift" is to be a vessel for the husband's sexuality.

And the lack of a groom shows it's just more of the sexist pressure on girls to be the guardians of "morality," while boys and men are free to pursue sex all the want. "good girls" are just supposed to resist.

And the final insult is reducing women to their sexual experience and the state of their vagina. If I decided to get married, I would expect my partner to appreciate my talents and experience and my participation in sex.

And that picture is just really damn creepy.

talk about the worst gift ever. you're probably in some sort of discomfort, if not outright pain and you have no idea what you're doing! awesome!

this is no to disparage the virgins in the house, but sex, like just about everything else generally requires some practice before you get really good at it.

virginity-in-a-box people are so disturbing.

Open Sketch,

I have to disagree with you and say the welfare comment is way out of line and your comment as well for many reasons. To start with just because a 16 year old has sex, doesn't mean they will get pregnant. Teens, given the proper sex education can have protected sex and avoid pregnancy. Not only that but if a teenage girl did get pregnant there is no reason why she would have to quit school altogether. Public schools are required by law to help teen parents continue their education, the government can also provide housing and childcare while a teenager is in school, which can continue until that student graduates from college. A parent teen could also choose to give up their child for adoption if they could not keep it and we're not interested in abortion. Besides which no one can live off the welfare system because individuals are now limited to getting cash assistance for only 5 years.

I honestly think that a teen or any young parent or anyone not being able to make enough money to live, has very little to do with personal choices like to having sex before marriage (BTW there are lots of married couples who are also on welfare and cannot afford to live on their own) and more to do with the cost of living and wages in this country. If people we're paid a living wage, would getting an education as a young parent be as much of an issue? Or if workplaces offered daycare would it be as much of an issue?

DAS: """"I've sometimes wondered: if we menfolk had something like a hymen, whose presence would correlate to virginity (so that people would think man-hymen=virgin, even if this rule would have many exceptions in practice), would there then be a similar cult around male "purity" such as there is around female "purity"""

I think it's more likely that having the male hymen would become a source of shame. Men who still had the tissue would be teased, taunted, and harrassed for still having the "Mark" and not being able to score with the ladies. Men who had shed their hymen would be high prestige and looked on with awe and respect by their classmates. Guys would try to sneak surreptitious looks in the locker room to see who still had their hymen and who didn't.

I think that would fit in with the common traditional belief - boys need to have sex in order to become men, girls need to abstain in order to become ladies.

Rileystclair: Yes! There is so much romanticizing of the "first time" and I'm amazed at how many people really believe it, despite their own experiences.

It's like these people feel jipped and have to live vicariously through the younger generation.

I'm going to the web site and emailing them and asking why they don't have any pictures of grooms, or men, in these ads for saving yourself for marriage. It will be intersting to see if I get a response. If I do I will post it here.

UCLA - your response reminds me of Gloria Steinem's "If Men Could Menstruate." It's one of the most memorable reads for me as a freshman a few years ago!

This holiday season, give the gift of virginity.
The gift of awkward first time sex. The gift of "OW WRONG HOLE" "OH SHIT SORRY". The gift of "That's it?".

This holiday season, give the gift of virginity.
The gift of awkward first time sex. The gift of "OW WRONG HOLE" "OH SHIT SORRY". The gift of "That's it?".

geek--exactly. i think it's so very dangerous to build up "the first time" as the end-all be-all of human sexual existence when for most people, it is not.

and as for the welfare comment--way out of line. dhsredhead is right. as fallacious as assuming that every 16-year-old girl who has sex will get pregnant (i guess it's a slightly safer assumption in abstinence-education-only-land, though), it's also ridiculous to assume that 16-year-old mothers will inevitably end up on public assistance. i get that raising a kid is expensive, but it seems to imply that only poorer girls would be the ones getting knocked up, instead of wealthier girls whose parents would help them out with childrearing and finances while they are completing their high school and college education. newsflash: teenagers of all socioeconomic groups are horny and having sex.

Ummm, life-long dependence on the welfare system probably is related to the socio economic status of parents more than whether a ring was on a finger the first time a certain type of sexual act is performed.

Comprehensive sex ed and honest, non judgmental discussion and access to the full spectrum of family planning resources, including birth control, emergency contraception and abortion would be the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancy in high school, which is the link to welfare dependence I think the poster (Open Sketch) and the website are referring to.

Just commenting to say, that the hypothetical male hymen ought to be called the "he-men". Or maybe the hyman, but that may be too confusing with the original.

So virginity is cool, but only for women, and we'll put the woman in this ad in a hideously old-fashioned wedding dress and in a bed that I'm pretty sure my 77-year-old grandmother sleeps in. So chic! Is that supposed to be a bed? It looks like a headboard.

I think one of the most disturbing parts of this ad is that the young woman in it looks pretty young, probably a teenager. Abstinence-until-marriage advocates are only advocating teen marriage. They know that teens have sex, and I guess they want these teens to get married and have children. That's not exactly going to keep you off of welfare.

"The gift of "That's it?"."

Thanks for the gift of iced tea all over my keyboard ;)

I'm 32, not married, and have had sex. With more than one guy!

I'm not pregnant, I have never had an STD, and I have a good career and am self sufficient, and not on public assistance.

So, waiting to have sex until you get married does not guaruntee that you will have a good job, career, or that your husband won't have an STD since this organization seems to be targeting women only, and if you get married very young without geting a good education and get pregnant, you could still end up poor, or on public assistance, even though you waited until marriage to have sex.

Just read excerpts from (what I believe to be) the Gloria Steinem piece and, ain't it the truth?

One thing did jump out at me, though in the whole process:

"Boys would mark the onset of menses, that longed-for proof of manhood, with religious ritual and stag parties."

Actually, in discussions about puberty, I notice many woman talk about the "excitement" they felt about becoming a woman, especially with such things as their first period (which very much differs from how I and many other men felt when we were boys -- excitement never entered into the picture, only "sheeze, now in addition to whatever else we already have to worry about, we now are feeling constantly anxious and horny and have the embarrasment of acne and a part of our body that suddenly decides to go 'boyoyoyoyoing' at the most inopportune times?"). So in this case, I don't think what "boys would do" is too different than what girls do now ... except for the degree of explicit acknowledgement of what's happening (as opposed to having a special party or something a few years after the fact).

FEMily!: Not only does it look like a bed, it looks no bigger than twin size. Full/double at most.

Perfect for a rolicking good time on the wedding night. /snark

Oh, and I just love how these virginity ads are so suggestive of sex. I don't even want to get started on the eroticization (is that a word?) of virginity.

But I wanted a gift certificate to Best Buy!

Kmari1222 - Yeah, haha what does the virgin get? I guess cock and money, since she should also quit her job to devote herself to her highest calling: raising children. Sounds like an even exchange to me!

I just browsed the site. ahem: "Flies spread diseases; so keep yours zipped"

with a picture of a female torso.

wow.

how incredibly witty. *barf*

Hehe cock and money? is that all my vagina can get me?!? But wait: aren't I supposed to give myself away for the sole reason of my husband having pleasure? I'm a woman: apparently I don't need anything in return.

I guess I better keep my fly zipped.. don't wanna give anyone west nile...

GeneticMishap: ""Just commenting to say, that the hypothetical male hymen ought to be called the "he-men". Or maybe the hyman, but that may be too confusing with the original."""

PFM """UCLA - your response reminds me of Gloria Steinem's "If Men Could Menstruate." It's one of the most memorable reads for me as a freshman a few years ago!"""

Good thinking! Yeah, that's a good one. In the hymen case, though, the world would stay pretty much as it is if males had Hymens. (or heman's). Just another way to mark the link between masculinity and sexual assertiveness.

hehehehe

The whole problem with the teenagers on welfare argument for abstinence until marriage is that it conflates becoming an adult with getting married.

I lost my virginity at the age of 23. I had exactly no risk whatsoever of being an unmarried teen mother and I was in grad school when I first had sex. I didn't get married until I was 34. So I'm not *too* too horrified by ads that recommend that people wait until they're adults before having sex; they're problematic too, but at least they're addressing a genuine problem, which is that teenagers, unless they're pop stars or actors/actresses, cannot support themselves, let alone themselves and a baby, without assistance in our society. A person with a bachelor's degree can go out and get a halfway decent job, most of the time; a teenager isn't even legally allowed to work full time unless they're at least 16. And teenagers are more irresponsible than adults (yes, I know there are exceptions; but due to the slow maturation of certain brain centers, teenagers are *invariably* more irresponsible than the adults they are going to be, even if they are more responsible than a given different adult.) So maintaining their birth control *or* raising a baby *or* getting an abortion in today's climate of having to jump through hoops to abort are all more difficult for a teen.

But the whole "save sex for marriage" basically comes out and says "marry the first guy you really want to get into the pants of so you can fuck." And the first guy whose pants you want to get into is rarely the best guy for you. (And the same is true for the first woman whose pants you want to get into as well.) I *would* have married the first guy who I actually did have sex with -- I proposed to him before I had sex with him, because I had major hangups about sex -- and we weren't really compatible at all, and it hurt both of us. But me more than him, because he just solved the incompatibility problem by sleeping around.

Yeah, and then there's the whole fucked-up-ness of your virginity being a gift you give someone else rather than sex with a person you want being a gift they give you, and the fact that they only pressure girls on this crap, and so forth. But to me, the huge horking problem with this campaign is that while "don't have sex while you're a teen" could be good advice depending on the teen, "don't have sex until marriage" is terrible advice for anyone who wants marriage to last a lifetime.

Errr, the woman in the photo looks kind of grumpy and pissed off to me. I know I'd be grumpy after a decade of unreleased sexual tension.

Errr, the woman in the photo looks kind of grumpy and pissed off to me. I know I'd be grumpy after a decade of unreleased sexual tension.

In the hymen case, though, the world would stay pretty much as it is

And it seems to me that the reason for this non-revolution would be that, unlike with menstruation, the hymen is--for most women--not really a big physical deal at all (at least in my understanding and personal experience). I mean, it's a notoriously poor indicator of a woman's sexual experience anyway, so the meaning we've invested in it comes out of the social conceptions of gender, rather than actual physical experience.

Hence, a physical change for men would not result in a large social change, since the meanings of sexual activity for women and men wouldn't be challenged in any profound way. I wonder what physical bits might take on more significance if men's purity started to matter more to the pro-abstinence-only crowd? I can't think off the top of my head whether there are historical examples.

Yuuuck. Besides being misogynists and having really fucked up ideas about sex and relationships, these people have really bad aesthetic taste. So 80's.

I'm reminded of a marriage campaign that's very visible in Baltimore City. I'm not sure who puts them up, but there are billboards all over the place with pictures of smiling couples and messages like, "Marriage Works" and "Married people earn more money."

For me, all the billboards do is raise more questions.

"Marriage works"... to do what? Legally bond two people? Yes. Get you a tax break? Right.
But that's about it. It guarantees nothing else. Not life-long happiness, not fidelity, not children, not anything.

And the one about married people earning more? WTF? Where's the evidence? Do they earn more than unmarried people a decade younger than themselves and earlier in their careers? Probably. Do they earn more *combined* than they would if they weren't pooling money? Yessss. It's such a misleading statement. Do employers PAY married employees more than unmarried employees? Because if getting married guarantees one a raise, that'd be discriminatory. Not something to broadcast.

Gah. So stupid.

I think they need a little more white covering her in the picture, really get that "purity" idea across. BLAH

Besides the terrible sexist, women as objects for men that this shows...

First time sex is almost always terrible. Wedding night should just be a fun night where you understand each other and can enjoy sex with each other without being nervous, or in pain due to lack of experience.

But that's in a world where men and women are equal in sexuality and honest with each other about it.

Hence, a physical change for men would not result in a large social change, since the meanings of sexual activity for women and men wouldn't be challenged in any profound way. - annajcook

But if men had hemans ( ;) ) ever since the dawn of humanity, would the meanings of sexual activity be different to begin with?

To what degree is the obsession with the hymen simply a product of the general need of certain people to be obsessed with something and the hymen being obsess-about-able? If men had hemans, would there be a similar obsession about hemans?

I'm with y'all above, it would likely play out differently for men. But it is interesting to wonder to what degree people obsess over women's "purity" because they can (*) in a way for which there is simply not parallel way to do so for a man?

* or think they can -- as you point out a hymen is "a notoriously poor indicator of a woman's sexual experience anyway" -- however I imagine that within the context of the kulturgeist that gave us the virginity obsession, it was just assumed that the hymen was an indicator of virginity ... if that era felt comfortable making a similar assumption about some sort of heman, would that assumption have resulted in a cult of virginity for men too?

Again, I think not: indeed, one could even argue that the correlation between the presence of a heman and virginity, even if it were stronger than between the hymen and virginity, would not be given as much weight because men are given benefits of the doubt more often than women due to sexism.

Still, IMHO, it is intriguing to imagine.

I'd be such a good Sci-Fi writer if I actually could take my ideas and bother to make stories with 'em :)

Oh well, if people want to think of their virginity as a gift, that's okay by me. "Gift" has all kinds of meanings; it's not necessarily about an object wrapped in a box with a bow.

What does seem problematic about the campaign is that the ads seem to be directed at women only. The old double standard.

Pitch that message at everyone equally, and I suspect it won't get much traction in contemporary American culture. But hey, if that's what you really think, and you're not sexist about it, go for it.

Oh, and I just love how these virginity ads are so suggestive of sex. I don't even want to get started on the eroticization (is that a word?) of virginity.

I know. It looks like kiddy porn, to be honest. These abstinence people put more of an emphasis on sex than anyone else, like sex is the most important thing in the world. I think they took that "put the pussy on a pedestal" line from The 40-Year-Old Virgin a little too seriously.

Ah, barf. A tulle-draped room and bride? How ugly and old fashioned is that ad? Plus, the poor bride looks more like a little girl holding her teddy bear than a woman holding her bridal bouquet. Is that supposed to be attractive? Lame. How gross that women are expected by these people to go to their first sexual experiences like blank slates, with no sexual personality of their own or developed tastes. I give props to women who choose to wait to have sex, but this ad seems to be about infantilizing women.

Ah, barf. A tulle-draped room and bride? How ugly and old fashioned is that ad? Plus, the poor bride looks more like a little girl holding her teddy bear than a woman holding her bridal bouquet. Is that supposed to be attractive? Lame. How gross that women are expected by these people to go to their first sexual experiences like blank slates, with no sexual personality of their own or developed tastes. I give props to women who choose to wait to have sex, but this ad seems to be about infantilizing women.

Ah, barf. A tulle-draped room and bride? How ugly and old fashioned is that ad? Plus, the poor bride looks more like a little girl holding her teddy bear than a woman holding her bridal bouquet. Is that supposed to be attractive? Lame. How gross that women are expected by these people to go to their first sexual experiences like blank slates, with no sexual personality of their own or developed tastes. I give props to women who choose to wait to have sex, but this ad seems to be about infantilizing women.

ANNAJCOOK: "I wonder what physical bits might take on more significance if men's purity started to matter more to the pro-abstinence-only crowd? I can't think off the top of my head whether there are historical examples. "

I remember vaguely reading a book by Barbara Ehrenreich (The hearts of men) a long time ago that talks about how 50+ years ago there was tremendous pressure for men to be married at a young age. If you weren't married by mid/late 20s you were seen as deficient, childish, or (gasp) a likely homosexual. It wasn't until the advent of publications like Playboy that paired celebration of bachalerhood with blatant heterosexuality that the celebration of male sexual conquests and prolonged bacherhood came into vogue.

I don't know how much I buy it, but that was basically her argument I think. Not quite what you were asking about, but a similar sort of pressure.

Hymen, schmymen. After re-reading "the myth of the vaginal orgasm" (I'm assigning it in a class this spring), I could care less about hymen action or vag penetration. Can he get her off, which requires clit action? Maybe we could all take the abstinence-only nonsense and turn it around on the promoters to promote clit-friendly and clit-positive sex, which could also be same-sex sex. The potential to subvert is good....

To Jessica's original question: you couldn't see the bow around my hymen for that honker of a diamond!! I love that image (for those unfamiliar, it was posted a couple of months ago).

Anne Koedt is awesome for having written that article - I still appreciate it and talk about it a whole, whole lot. Are you teaching this in your theory class, Prof?

A serious question: what does the abstinence only movement think of masturbation, since we're talking about Anne Koedt's "Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm?"

At least let them masturbate, Christ! It's the holidays.

Ew.

I have a good friend whose 17 year old cousin, who is still in high school, just got married to a guy she'd been dating for a month. Because she wanted to have sex with him and "didn't believe in sex before marriage." This is what these campaigns result in! It is happening all over the country. Is this *really* what they want? Young people stuck in marriages they haven't thought through, just because they were horny? What happens to these young couples when the honeymoon phase runs out?

And if the hymen is a gift...I never had one to give. Some women are born without one. *raises hand* I guess I'm just naturally trash and should've become a prostitute because I had no gift to give my husband. /snark

PFM: the course is actually on US women's movements. Rather than approach it chronologically, I teach it thematically. Sexual liberation is one important theme that crosses women's movements.

And masturbation -- yes! (ah, Betty Dodson...)

it used to be that a woman's virginity was some sort of guarantee for the man that the children his women would bear would actually be his, and would therefore be the rightful heirs to the man's properties, etc. very paternalistic. i don't think if men had had he-mans it would have changed that, since men aren't the ones to bear children. they'd probably tease each other about it & celebrate becoming a man, like other mentionned, but the double-standard would still be there.

it used to be that a woman's virginity was some sort of guarantee for the man that the children his women would bear would actually be his, and would therefore be the rightful heirs to the man's properties, etc. very paternalistic. i don't think if men had had he-mans it would have changed that, since men aren't the ones to bear children. they'd probably tease each other about it & celebrate becoming a man, like other mentionned, but the double-standard would still be there.

nascardaughter, i have no problem with regarding the "first time" as important stage in the road to adulthood, but "gift" implies that once you give something away, you don't have it anymore. while you may be sans hymen afterwards, it's just creepy to think about the "first time" experience itself as having intrinsic value because that in some way devalues all subsequent sex. the virginity cult discourse implies (or directly states in some cases) that if you've already given this "gift" away, you don't have anything left to "give" to a partner, that you're spent, contaminated, etc.

also, defining virginity is problematic to begin with. why is giving a man an orgasm via vaginal intercourse a gift, but giving him one through oral sex doesn't count? what about anal? what about *gasp* homosexual sex?

bottom line: i am fine with impressing upon teenagers the risks and dangers of having sex early, and even with telling them that they may be happier of they wait to engage in sexual activity (without placing arbitrary clintonesque limits on that term) until they are not teenagers ( only coupled with all the necessary information about contraception, protection against STDS, simple human anatomy, etc, of course) but any more than that opens up a logistic and philosophical can of worms.

Well it only makes sense. Women=things and so anything associated with them is a commodity to be traded and used. Right?

PROF/ACTIVIST"""Hymen, schmymen. After re-reading "the myth of the vaginal orgasm" (I'm assigning it in a class this spring), I could care less about hymen action or vag penetration. Can he get her off, which requires clit action?"""

I haven't read the article you mentioned, but hopefully the article addresses that fact that some women DO orgasm from vaginal stimulation and not clitoral stimulation. For some women, clitoral stimulation is definitely NOT the way the go (if you want them to orgasm, that is). The title makes me worry that the author is just replacing one dogma that doesn't apply to all women with a new dogma that doesn't apply to all women.

Does anybody know what the deal is with the "facts" on their front page? Is any of it legit?

"The good news. abstinence is working! From 1998 - 2004 Franklin County experienced a 34% decrease in teen pregnancies!

And across the county teens are abstaining too, due in most part to the governmental promotion of abstinence education. The federal government wants teens to know it is the expected standard for American teens to wait for sex until marriage. Abstinence helps to ensure a more successful future, avoid STDs and to avoid possible life-long dependency on the welfare system. 54.5 % of American high school teens are still virgins and 65% of teens who were sexually active have stopped (renewed virginity).

You might think that abortions and contraception use has increased, in fact in the past ten years abortions declined 39% and contraception use remained the same. The CDC (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) attributes 67% of the decline in teen pregnancies to teenage abstinence and abstinence education."

ucla: yeah, i get into all kinds of ways of thinking and feeling and doing re: orgasms. But the point is to get everyone away from the idea that vagina = orgasm. This is what frustrates me about the Vagina Monologues, although I love it more than not -- but there's all this attention to the vag and none to the clit. But Anne Koedt, the author, is not "replacing one dogma...with a new dogma that doesn't apply to all women." She's pointing out the bio-fact that _most_ women get off via clit action but are taught to believe that vag action = orgasm. And that's an important point, especially in light of contemporary emphasis on hymen intact-ed-ness.

In my class, we spend an entire day talking about the good/bad/ugly of getting off -- how people learned about doing "it" and how people learned about how they were supposed to get off but what ultimately gets them to the O-zone. It is a good deal of fun, once people start talking about it.

The ultimate wedding gift: total incompetence in bed.

PROF/ACT""""In my class, we spend an entire day talking about the good/bad/ugly of getting off -- how people learned about doing "it" and how people learned about how they were supposed to get off but what ultimately gets them to the O-zone. """"

Sounds really interesting! I'm actually designing a course for the spring (Psychology of Gender and the Body) so I'll definitely check that out as a possible reading. Thanks!

The text notwithstanding, the visual grammar is much more in keeping with brand promotion to men: i.e. "you want one of these." And for too many reasons (even if you *really did* care about abstinence as the promoters do) that's just the wrong message to be sending to men, let alone women.

Also, are these really current billboards? For instance the copyright for the site says 2004-2005.

It's not a completely random question. A little Googling around suggests the model, who would have been a local teen abstinence activist at the time, was only sixteen in June of 2003. Fine if it's a new billboard since it looks like the model is now a college senior but pretty creepy if it was taken in, say, 2004.

figleaf

DIPTUTOD: "The ultimate wedding gift: total incompetence in bed."

The fact that someone is a virgin on their wedding night (or their first night having sex) doesn't make them "incompetent". I am sure many people are quite happy to simply enjoy being with their partner and learn how to be intimate together.

Well, I emailed them earlier and asked why all of the images on their site and in their campaigns feature women only, and asked why they don't have any pictures of men. Haven't gotten a response yet.

This school of philosophy - "wait until marriage" - only encourages horny young adults to make hasty commitments to each other when they don't understand what it takes to have a working and communicative relationship with a partner. OR it backfires out the other side and kids stick it in every other hole they can. This is probably why these ads are aimed towards girls and not boys - because boys gotta put it somewhere! But girls have to keep it out of the vagina because that's where pregnancy starts.

I would wager that most people that believe in abstinence-only education also believe homosexuals don't have the right to marry because it "destroys the sacrament of marriage." So, horny kids marrying for the sake of finally getting laid the "right way" isn't destroying your "sacrament?"

Ugh, you know what sucks? The website is part of A+ For Abstinence, which THANKS TO ARLEN SPECTOR, just got an earmark for $30,000 in the HHS bill.(Any Pennsylvanians want to send an email to Spector?)

And without even trying, on the website's front page I found a factual inaccuracy. "The CDC (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) attributes 67% of the decline in teen pregnancies to teenage abstinence and abstinence education."

Since I've been working on op-eds for comprehensive sex education all week, I happen to know that is not at all what the CDC reported. Admittedly the figure I found was from the well-known Guttmacher Institute which "reported that from 1995 to 2002 the majority of the decrease in teen pregnancy -- 86 percent -- was due to an increased use of contraceptives, not abstinence."

"Besides, if her virginity is her gift to him, what's his to her?"

I'm not saying I agree, but the answer is obviously, taking it, and hopefully appreciating it - taking care of her, and protecting her and all according to the old model.

"Gloria Steinem's "If Men Could Menstruate.""

Loved it. I believe it was part of one of my required readings for Sociology or History, the anthology Herstory, and the number one or two most memorable essay.

"The ultimate wedding gift: total incompetence in bed."

Nothing wrong with that. Learning with someone can be amazingly erotic. Not that incompetence applied to my wife and I, anyway. I was in better shape 12 years ago. Miss those days.

The title makes me worry that the author is just replacing one dogma that doesn't apply to all women with a new dogma that doesn't apply to all women.

I would also add to prof/activist's response that "The Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm" was written in 1970 and circulated within the women's movement. Koedt was responding to the pop-Freudian sex psychology of the time that was obsessed with the idea of female "frigidity" and suggested that "mature" orgasms were vaginal, whereas clitoral orgasm were immature/wrong/bad. So although "Myth" might seem somewhat simplistic or dogmatic in today's feminist & sexual environment, it was a powerful piece of activism in its context (and still a fascinating read).

"I've sometimes wondered: if we menfolk had something like a hymen, whose presence would correlate to virginity (so that people would think man-hymen=virgin, even if this rule would have many exceptions in practice), would there then be a similar cult around male 'purity' such as there is around female 'purity'?...

"...I wonder -- has anybody written a sci-fi novel with this as a premise?"

Ever read the novel _Ritual of Proof_ by Dara Joy? It's set on a space colony in which boys do have such a membrane (it's on the penis and painfully dissolves during his first time having P-I-V sex). OTOH, the colony was female-dominant before some of its scientists put the genes for a male hymen-equivalent into the population. BTW, the novel's also a gender-reversed Regency romance (Joy has Regency retro style be very fashionable in the colony).

"Honestly, if these people are so concerned about teens getting pregnant and dropping out of school - THEY'D TEACH THEM COMPREHENSIVE SEX ED, so this shit doesn't happen."

I suspect that some of them are just fine with teens getting pregnant and dropping out of school as long as she's married to the father (wasn't that common in the 1950s US?).

"Enforced inexperience means no real ability to be a sexual agent."

OTOH, I'm a virgin too, thanks to awful luck at dating (and not wanting to have sex with a guy against his will). Does my fantasizing, masturbating, looking up info on safer sex, and talking to my doctor about preparing for possibly having sex someday not count as part of a real ability to be a sexual agent?

"Rileystclair: Yes! There is so much romanticizing of the 'first time' and I'm amazed at how many people really believe it, despite their own experiences.

"It's like these people feel jipped and have to live vicariously through the younger generation."

Also, I wonder how many of the people romanticizing female first times romanticize the feeling of breaking someone else's hymen and stretching out someone else's drier-from-nervousness vagina, rather than romanticizing the feeling of having one's own hymen broken and drier-from-nervousness vagina stretched.

"it's also ridiculous to assume that 16-year-old mothers will inevitably end up on public assistance. i get that raising a kid is expensive, but it seems to imply that only poorer girls would be the ones getting knocked up, instead of wealthier girls whose parents would help them out with childrearing and finances while they are completing their high school and college education"

It also implies that only unmarried girls would be getting knocked up, instead of any married teen girls who'd be stuck relying on husbands and in-laws instead of stuck relying on welfare.

"Actually, in discussions about puberty, I notice many woman talk about the 'excitement' they felt about becoming a woman, especially with such things as their first period"

I wonder if that's becoming less common as the age of menarche drops. I got my first period at 11 and was very glad that my mom wasn't all "you're a woman now!!!" Later I asked her about that, and it turns out that the idea creeped her out even more than it creeps me out.

"nascardaughter, i have no problem with regarding the 'first time' as important stage in the road to adulthood"

So when a guy I liked and went on a date with at age 25 refused to keep dating me let alone eventually have sex with me, did that mean he got to stop me being an adult too? That's a big problem with regarding the "first time" as a stage in the road to adulthood.

Her virginity -- do not want!

Why is it that people assume female virginity is a sexually desirable trait? Can't it be a "meh, either way" trait, or a (more accurate IMHO) "I'd really rather not" trait?

I had to have my hymen surgically removed. Does this mean my gift isn't as precious? Should I have asked my doctor to preserve it in formaldehyde so I could give it to my husband on our wedding night? Maybe I can become a born again virgin and make everything right.

Or maybe it's better if I never have sex at all seeing that opening my fly will spread disease.

mina, good point about adulthood. i didn't really mean to imply that having sex is a necessary condition of adulthood. i should have phrased that differently. i meant something like, having sex for the first time is generally a part of one's life path and it's ok to think it's an important moment (as opposed to attaching it to all kinds of other junk or making it out to be the biggest deal ever as the right-wing fundamentalists do).

on another note i also should have mentioned in my previous post the whole idea of determining when one is no longer a virgin is inherently male-centered and heterosexist. what if we considered the loss of one's virginity to occur with the first orgasm induced by a sexual partner, instead of the first time one had hetero vaginal penetration?

Aside from the sketchy 'facts' on the front page, the part where they never explain why virginity is cool, and the girls-only billboards, did anyone else notice that the "events and projects" page contained neither events nor projects?

I am not impressed.

i saved my virginity until marriage and all I got was this shitty inexperienced loser and an ugly wedding dress!

The credibility of the site certainly isn't helped by its use, or rather misuse, of statistics. Somehow, from the average age of first sexual experience for dropouts (16.5) to those with a bachelor degree or higher level of education (19.3) they get this gem: "just by waiting an additional three years teens greatly increase their odds of graduating high school, attending college and graduating with a Bachelor's Degree or higher!" And yes, that exclamation point is actually part of the quote.

Also-

This was a direct link from their "crisis pregnancy" thing.

Also (again). when you have a chalk board that says "FACTS" and then use words like "much greater", I have to call bullshit. Put some stats from the health dept. on there and maaaaaaaybe I can view this as a legitimate site.

busywritingspin--the lack of basic logic in the statement you quoted is mind-boggling.

Cectic's take on abstinence only.

Funnies. It haz tehm.

"Does my fantasizing, masturbating, looking up info on safer sex, and talking to my doctor about preparing for possibly having sex someday not count as part of a real ability to be a sexual agent?"

That wasn't what I meant. I was referring to the "enforced inexperience" that's promoted by the abstinence crowd and clearly illustrated by the photo above. I think people can certainly wait for sex for a variety of reasons and still be complete human beings with a healthy sexuality. I've gone 5 years between sex partners because of lack of opportunty and shyness. But I was certainly sexual.

But the ad campaign and others like it aren't about developing sexuality. They don't promote learning about your sexuality through fantasies and masturbation in place of sex with someone else.

They're promoting sexual ignorance.

Besides, if her virginity is her gift to him, what's his to her?

Silly people. She gives her virginity in exchange for THE RING!

"mina, good point about adulthood. i didn't really mean to imply that having sex is a necessary condition of adulthood."

OK, cool. :)

"what if we considered the loss of one's virginity to occur with the first orgasm induced by a sexual partner, instead of the first time one had hetero vaginal penetration?"

Personally, I'm considering myself a virgin until/unless I have sex (even if it's cunnilingus), hymen or no hymen. ;)

I'm surprised that hymen is being mentioned so much. I'm sure thats how the abstinence poeople measure virginity but hasn't it been proven as a pretty useless way to judge it. Even if a women has an intact hymen it is not broken , popped ,ripped etc. when she first has intercourse but it wears away over time. Another thing I dont understand is how they demonise pre-marital sex yey turn a blind eye to oral sex - and of course they define oral sex as a blow job. So basically they're saying oral SEX is not sex. Sure and wholemeal bread is not bread either.

"And across the county teens are abstaining too, due in most part to the governmental promotion of abstinence education. The federal government wants teens to know it is the expected standard for American teens to wait for sex until marriage. 54.5 % of American high school teens are still virgins and 65% of teens who were sexually active have stopped (renewed virginity)."

It's funny they brag about that. I've read on many websites that half of Canadian students have had sex by high school grad and I've never heard of abstainance-only programs here. Well, except possibly in catholic schools I guess.

I just can't believe how much religion is present in government. It is the GOVERNMENT'S expected standard for teens to wait till marriage??? And why is the American government trying to get involved in people's private affairs when Americans are supposed to have so much freedom? That's what confuses me.

lyndoor-

maybe I'll move to canada.

but I'm afraid of the cold. :P

Okay, I've been working in a sex shop for too long. With that "I'm too hot for you" over-the-shoulder look, I was expecting to see an upraised wedding dress and the bride presenting her buttocks.

msmullally, the issue of oral sex confuses me too. I used to think I'd be a virgin until marriage for religious reasons, but I didn't see anything wrong with having oral sex. Later I got in with a stricter group of Christians and did decide that everything but kissing was bad (still later I became a feminist and threw out the whole idea of virginity), but my parents and my Catholic church never said anything, good or bad, about stuff like manual and oral sex. I really had no idea what their expectations were. Seems strange. I think the idea that penile-vaginal is the be-all end-all of sex is due to patriarchy, because vaginal sex is not at all guaranteed to lead to female orgasm and in patriarchy, that's ok, as long as the man gets off and the woman gets pregnant. But I also think some people just aren't comfortable going into details because they feel like sex is dirty, and something people shouldn't know anything about until they're married, not to mention just awkward for parents and kids in our culture. It's easier to say "no sex" and leave it up to the kids to figure out whether sex means everything or just penile-vaginal. And kids do try to figure it out, debating whether someone who's done oral sex is still a virgin and so on. But you would expect the more extreme religious people to spell it out - and they do. For instance, someone told me about four rules...I can't remember them all, but one was don't touch anything you don't have, and another was don't show anything that a bathing suit wouldn't cover. Unless you're really creative, they rule out everything but kissing, and then some people say no french kissing, and then there are those who wait for marriage to kiss.

One more piece of info from someone who's been there - the argument that wedding night sex will be bad is not likely to change many minds. I have friends in a facebook group called something about being dedicated to awkward honeymoon sex. And the Christian argument is often that God wants us to wait BECAUSE he's committed to good sex, and good sex is committed sex, not acrobatic sex. Which I thought was so sweet until I started wondering if that idea leads men to not worry about whatever techniques will lead to female orgasm.

Dropping in on the dialup again:) What I'd like to say has been said a lot already (dang it) but on the hymen front, lets not forget for the longest time it was the tearing of the hymen that indicated loss of virginity, especially the bleeding to signify the bride hadn't ever been "touched" before. Some cultures even paraded around the bedsheet.

Having said that, human women aren't the only mammals to possess hymens, it's a frequent tissue in a lot of animals (sorry if someone had already said that) and in humans is really just left over tissue from the formation of the vagina. A great book to read is Virgin: An Untouched History by Hanne Blank, which discusses in depth the obession over virginity.

As for the push for todays young women to be virgins, a lot of what I personally experienced with abstinence only education (in rural MO) and from various things I've read on this and other blogs is that women aren't expected to have sexual agency. You are expected to lay back and think of Uncle Sam while your husband does his husbandly duty. Someone mentioned masterbation and whether or not they teach that. From my experience the answer is no. We were taught that masterbation is something chronic, and to be avoided. Masterbation takes away from your husband, you see, just like pre-marital sex takes away from your husband. I don't know how they feel about sexual experimentaion within marriage, I'd venture a guess that as long as babies were being made it was all okay.

While it is possible for couples to save their virginity for marriage, the usual message is that it is women who should wait and they shouldn't do anything that might make them unsatisfied with their husbands. A funny example I saw of this was from a clip of Wife Swap (or something to the effect) where a conservative woman was demonstrating with a candy bar how women become "used" from pre-marital sex. She took the candy bar out of the wrapper and passed it around the room until it was melting and sticky. She then pointed out that if a girl had pre-marital sex that she enjoyed with a guy, then she might not think her husband is as good as her previous sexual encounter. I thought that sumed up the attitude nicely.

And now I go back to lurking until I'm home with my internet cable...

UltraMagnus, they did that same exercise during one of my religion classes in high school (I went to a Catholic high school). I had to pass a KitKat bar around to different guys in the class, and then I was told that the KitKat bar symbolized me, and why would my husband want a half-eaten KitKat bar, to which I responded by asking if someone was going to be taking a chunk out of my vag everytime I had sex, in which case, why would I want to fuck my husband? That sounds awful!

Anywho, I also find it strange that these wacky Junior Anti-Sex League people don't understand that the hymen doesn't magically disappear after sex. Mine is still attached to me, after three and a half years of committed and acrobatic sex with Mr. KMP. It's looking a bit worse for the wear of course, but, it still there. Blah. I had a friend in high school who didn't want to wear a tampon b/c she thought she might not be a virgin anymore after, and when I cleared that up for her, then admitted that she was concerned that she wouldn't be able to urinate while it was in place. I then had to explain that she has separate openings for separate activities, and eventually she embraced Tampax, but seriously, how does that much misinformation happen? I always kind of giggled at those questions when I would read them in the body answers section of Seventeen, until I realized that actual people thought a piece of cotton could take their virginity. And honestly didn't know that pee doesn't come from a uterus.

"""what if we considered the loss of one's virginity to occur with the first orgasm induced by a sexual partner, instead of the first time one had hetero vaginal penetration?"""

I don't think that works for me. So if my partner orgasms and I don't, then am I still a virgin and she isn't, even though we both considered it our first time? And some women has never had an orgasm, by themselves or with a partner. Sigh, so many rules to figure out with this whole virgin thing.

I say KMP's religion teacher had the right idea - you're still a virgin until you've had sex in a bed showered the bed with kit kat bars. Yum.

The whole concept of virginity is weird and creepy in the first place. Why do we even have a term to describe a person who hasn't done a specific thing? How about teaching our daughters to identify themselves with things they have accomplished, rather than those they haven't?

The whole virginity movement is the ultimate sexual objectification, treating girls' (always girls') sexuality as a single-use, disposable thing that becomes worthless and disgusting once it's been used--like toilet paper or something.

And what about the girls who slip up, or worse yet, are raped? How do you un-do years of this kind of indoctrination and convince your daughter that she's still a worthwhile human being deserving of respect? If I'm not mistaken, most of the girls in these programs still end up having premarital sex. Meaning most of them fail.

Why would anyone set their own daughter up for something like that?

Can't I just get a nice blender?

"Why would anyone set their own daughter up for something like that?"

In the hopes of achieving some goal ("honourable" reputation, high bride price, going to heaven, whatever) they value more than their own daughter?

My hymen broke while i was riding a horse bareback... dose that mean that i should have married the horse?

My friend took an anthropology class in which she learned about the !Kung people, and she said they don't have a word for virginity. And also that people explore sexuality from a very young age.

As a transsexual woman, do I get to be a virgin? Does it count, or not, that I had sex when I was a man? I didn't get a hymen in the surgery, so I guess I miss out on that bit.
And if I do get to be a virgin, do I have to have sex with a man to stop being one, or can I have sex with anyone...

I read somewhere that some arab men paint their penises green on their wedding night, and if their new bride shows shock, surprise or laughs then "Kill Her"...

I really want to (have to, almost) believe that the people who push the commoditization of virginity are just misguided and stupid and haven't thought through what they're saying.

I saw that Wife Swap or whatever that Ultra Magnus mentioned, and it just plain didn't make sense. The woman doing the candy bar demonstration was not a virgin herself, and she didn't come across as being so self-loathing that she thought of herself as a squashed, dirty, used up candy bar. Stupidity is the only explanation that makes sense to me.

I want to believe that people are basically well meaning, and want to protect their children from the risk of early pregnancy, STDs, and the emotional complications that go along with sexual relationships--especially during the already volatile adolescent years.

I have to believe that they just haven't thought through the messages they're sending their children.

As a transsexual woman, do I get to be a virgin?

J7Sue, I think your questions might be a little too complicated and mind-blowing for CoolVirginity.com. I think you should e-mail them over and see if their server crashes ;).

what if we considered the loss of one's virginity to occur with the first orgasm induced by a sexual partner, instead of the first time one had hetero vaginal penetration?

. . . as someone who has yet to have partnered sex (not intentionally, it just hasn't happened), I'd like to throw out there that, if losing one's virginity is going to be equated with sexual knowledge, even people who haven't had partnered sex could be non-virgins :).

I can see the ritual-cultural importance of having language to speak about initiation into partnered sex--but "virgin," with its myriad cultural meanings, isn't really a word that makes sense when I try to apply it to myself.

You know, I believe everybody should be able to define the loss of their own virginity. I was raped when I was 12 and I will never think of that as the loss of my virginity. I'm offended that anybody would think it was.
As for women being treated like objects, it's just so horribly wrong. I'm sure they meant well, but they didn't do any good. Don't have sex until marriage! That's not all the information that people need.
Who's to say that sex before marriage will result in pregnancy, an STD, poverty, or emotional problems?
I've been having consensual sex since I was 17 and I have not had any of those problems. I know my boyfriend's sexual history, I know that he's a good person who would never hurt me, and I'm on the pill. If that makes me a bad person, then I don't want to be a good person.
Also, my boyfriend always says that he believes that we are spiritually married (We love each other and have agreed to spend the rest of our lives together. We're just too young and have no money, so that's why we're not legally married). How does that come into play with this whole issue? Can you have sex without legally being married and still have it be right (according to their backward thinking)?

rileystclair commented: "the virginity cult discourse implies (or directly states in some cases) that if you've already given this "gift" away, you don't have anything left to "give" to a partner, that you're spent, contaminated, etc."

Interesting point. I like the idea of having a gift to give, but it certainly seems healthier to me to consider the "first time" with any given person to be that gift, in the sense of "hey, I like YOU enough to get this intimate with YOU together."

With any given potential relationship, then, it becomes a question of "will we get there?" and if we do, THAT is something special, the combination of the two people.

The funny/sad thing is I bet we could reduce teen sex if we became more comfortable with the thought of teens having orgasms! I wonder how many 15 year olds know you can have great orgasms without sex. Or how much they know about the clitoris. Billboards like these show sex as THE end so who wouldn't want to try it to see what all the fuss is about. I mean I'm for letting teens know they have options for fun other than sex. I think condoms should be easy enough to get if you have any money but other kinds of birth control and abortions could be more difficult, particularly if you can't talk to your parents about it.

"Interesting point. I like the idea of having a gift to give, but it certainly seems healthier to me to consider the "first time" with any given person to be that gift, in the sense of "hey, I like YOU enough to get this intimate with YOU together.""

You know, I actually never thought of it like that. Being raised to think sex is evil, I always thought of it as a one-time gift, but now that I think about it, can't the gift be re-gifted over and over again with however many people you feel like giving it to?

Sure. A "first time" with each partner is special. Probably more exciting than what will be going on for the next 40 or 60 years if they stay together.

Did everyone else get a reply from coolvirginity too? I just did.

It seems like they're kinda pissed we found their website.

And apparently they aren't biased because they have one billboard that shows an extremely young couple at the alter kissing.. "knowing we both waited... priceless"

My first time sucked. I had planned for it, knew it was going to happen, and all that jazz, but it was still lame because my partner was comatose in bed (and in life, I was to find out). I had sex with two other guys after that before meeting the love of my life. I am actually quite glad that he wasn't my first and I wasn't his first, as the first time we had sex was mindblowing (as is 90% of our sexual activity even now, more than a year later).

If either of us had been nervous or inexperienced, I doubt it would have been quite as fun. Plus, I know for sure that he's good in bed since I've had sex with other people. Maybe the experimental thing isn't for everyone, but it shouldn't be forbidden as long as it's safer and responsible sex. My mother once told me not to masturbate because it would cause problems with my husband and also that the reason one should hold off on sex until marriage is that you would inevitably compare others to your husband in bed. I'm so glad I didn't take her advice. I'd rather be considered "dirty" or a "whore" by religious fundies than be sexually ungratified for the rest of my life.

There are some comments about clitoral orgasm vrs. vaginal orgasm up thread. I never use to have vaginal orgasms, and I was very ignorant about clitoral stimulation. Once I learned more about clitoral stimulation, I actually found out that I could orgasm vaginally as well. Usually, I would have the clitoral orgasm first through oral sex or manual stimulation, and I had the vaginal orgasm through sexual intercourse that followed. I found out that there is such a thing as a g-spot. Anyway, I found out that for me to have a vaginal orgasm, I had to have clitoral stimulation first. Sometimes both at the same time. I know that this might not work for everyone, but I'm happy with the results.

I really did not like that article, "Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm." I am not confused about my orgasms or anatomy nor am I submitting to patriarchy.

I always masturbated vaginally and had experienced orgasms before I even knew what a clitoris was. The first time I heard the word "clitoris," it was only described to me as a highly-sensitive pleasure-center for women. By that definition, I thought my g-spot was my clitoris, without knowing the words for either. As I grew older and gained knowledge, I found out what each spot was actually called, but what type of stimulation I liked remained the same. Not that I don't ever give my clit some love, mind you, I just feel offended that I'm considered less of a feminist for being a g-spot (and sometimes u-spot) girl.

As a feminist woman who waited (and waited) for sex with the right person. I have to say the idea of waiting for sex is not a bad one. The idea of gifting your virginity upon your marriage is a really horribly bad one. When I compare 'my first time' stories with my friends I was the only one who waited till she knew she was old and wise enough to really enjoy sex. My first time was awesome and I even had an orgasm. I think it was because I was old enough to understand that sex is NOT only about men getting off.
I am thrilled I waited till I was almost 22 to have sex. It was great, and I'll always fondly remember the first man I had sex with. I don't doubt that waiting till YOU are ready is the absolute right decision for both men and women, what I do doubt is the idea that marriage is the right time. I wish we would spend as much time educating children to know their bodies as we spend telling them sex is dirty and only dirty girls get boys off.
I can only hope that one day if I CHOOSE to have children they will wait till they are old enough and mature enough to have an orgasm and a lot of fun the first time they have sex. Sex isn't dirty until society makes it that way.

I don't have a problem with people waiting until their older to have sex, but I also don't have a problem with people waiting until they're married. I think that it's a personal choice. However, I think that people need to be educated better about how their body functions. I remember reading in my sex ed text book that a woman has an orgasm when the penis rubs her clitoris during intercourse, but the textbook picture showed the clitoris above the vagina. WTF? Talk about confusing! The teacher didn't even mention the clitoris at all. All she talked about was orgasms during vaginal intercourse. My mother didn't talk to me about the clitoris either (did she even know?) It's great that some women can have vaginal orgasms only, but I don't think that would have been possible for me to have one without clitoral stimulation first. I was almost 21 years old before I had sex, and I hated it for a long time because I was so hung up on the vaginal orgasm only. My boyfriend thought that it would help to rent porn movies to "get in the mood." That certainly didn't help. Well, my husband and I found what works, and I'm perfectly happy with it. I don't think anyone should be considered less of a feminist no matter how they achieve an orgasm.

Heina, the article addressing historical views of sex between men and women is from 1970, and the G-spot didn't really have a place in public discourse until the 80s. Koedt's central point, viewed in context, is solid and very important.

I got a response from Cool Virginity also. Here it is:

"Thanks for your questions, I’m alittle confused as my site is under construction and you all three asked about the same question on the same day. So if you don’t mind, please let me know how you came across my site. I don’t have any ads or a news campaign, this site is just for follow-up for our abstinence education programs we do for our local community.
In response to your concerns, the coolvirginity site is part of our abstinence programs that we conduct for schools and other organizations. We are a very small organization and have been conducting abstinence education for 14 years. Two years ago we got a small grant and part of which was used to design the website and billboards you see. The model is one of my previous volunteers. The other billboard that I made was a couple that waited until marriage (friends of mine), more balanced. First of all, I don’t like how the web designers did the site, looks too female and they didn’t put the other billboard on either so I totally understand and agree that the site looks out of balance. I fought the web guys and the response being that they needed more money to fix it (which we don’t have). They didn’t even fix my email or remove all their links that I wanted off! So I went on a search for a volunteer that will revamp it for me, just found one before Christmas so hopefully we’ll get it worked out soon. Our program focuses on abstinence for all youth as the best way to avoid STIs, teen pregnancy and instead focus on their future. Our program is different from many that are tagged “abstinence-only�, we are a compliment to what is taught by the school. The teachers contact us to do our presentation because we provide the teachers with up-to-date information on STIs and the teens love the skits. We don’t charge for the program, its worked great all these years. We’re not about getting bigger, we just provide this to our local communities.

Here’s a copy of the Billboard that I we put up and I wanted this on the site, it will be soon. Please know that the education we do is very balanced, we’ve been providing this for 14 years with no complaints about being one-sided because we’re not. Like I said if my site is somehow getting promoted without me knowing it, please let me know, I need to figure out how to stop it because its not fixed yet. On another note, if you went to the pregnancyministries.org site, that is designed for females dealing with pregnancy issues so yes, that is designed to appeal to females. Coolvirginity is a division of our local pregnancy care center, sometimes that can be a little confusing, pregnancyministries... for females, coolvirginity… for both.
Hope that helps and thanks for your inquires!
Sherry"

Here is the photo of the male/female billboard they sent in the email:http://www.flickr.com/photos/techlily/2148695493/

the couple look like they are in HIGH SCHOOL! So apparently this organization is fine with kids getting married really young so they can have sex, regardless of how well prepared they are for the commitment of marriage.

I'm sorry I haven't read all the comments, and if someone has already written a similar answer to DAS's thoughts, then my bad.

DAS: "I've sometimes wondered: if we menfolk had something like a hymen, whose presence would correlate to virginity (so that people would think man-hymen=virgin, even if this rule would have many exceptions in practice), would there then be a similar cult around male "purity" such as there is around female "purity"? I.e. is the cult around female "purity" merely a function of having something by which people think they can verify it?"

I think the fact that women have a measurable indicator of virginity (the hymen) has little to do with the creation of the cult of female purity. Rather, because there is a cult of female purity, the hymen has become an important measure of virginity. In other words, if men had some sort of tissue that indicated whether or not they were virgins, that wouldn't really matter because their purity is not prized in the first place. Traditionally, women's purity is prized because part of our social value is determined by the heirs we can produce for men, and if you marry a guaranteed virgin, then you know her children are yours and your children will inherit your property. What women's bodies can provide to men (something to gaze at, sex, children) loses value when the hymen is broken since a) they don't get to gaze at the mythical virgin form, b) the sex supposedly won't be as good (because she's not in pain? who knows. fucked up logic), and c) if a woman has had children, she's supposedly ruined and worthless.

Oh our deliciously fucked up culture! I hope that was a good answer to your question DAS!

If a man can prove beyond a doubt that he is a virgin, then he too can offer his virginity to his future wife as a lovely gift.

Would save on flowers, I guess.

If a man can prove beyond a doubt that he is a virgin, then he too can offer his virginity to his future wife as a lovely gift.

Would save on flowers, I guess.

"the couple look like they are in HIGH SCHOOL! So apparently this organization is fine with kids getting married really young so they can have sex, regardless of how well prepared they are for the commitment of marriage."

That is idiotic. The fact that people actually have this idea, not your comment. It is no wonder that some states have marriageable ages so low (previously as low as 13 or 14) in this day and age, even lower than legal ages of sexual consent, allowing child molesters to marry their naive victims and avoid prosecution (an issue I read of in a women's magazine - a 39 year old man with a 13 year old girl, and the accompanying smily photo of their embrace was just WRONG). And to think that the girls' parents actually give the required consent for the girls to marry that young, or approve of such adult/child relationships. I'd like to know how such relationships turn out, particularly once the girls develop out of their childhood desirability, or the young woman realizes her man is a sleaze.

"If a man can prove beyond a doubt that he is a virgin, then he too can offer his virginity to his future wife as a lovely gift."

Like what? Premature ejaculation and lack of foreplay, or worse yet, imitating what they see in porn (think - groping "foreplay," oral with hands pulling on woman's head, numerous changes in position, piston action and male climax scene sans condom), which is what numerous young Japanese women complain of? Sweeet. I am glad I read sex ed books and women's magazines since childhood, to know that missionary only, was not the way.