Why cannot people differentiate between respect for your mate's parents (if they deserve it) and the lack of respect for your mate that treating you like your father's property shows?

One expects nothing less than this...great leader of our nation. *gag*

Yeah we know what "school" you're from, fucktard.

Would that be the school daddy bought you into?

How sweet of People to ask 'did he do right,' too. Ugh.

I know this isn't the point, but somehow I am not surprised that Bush didn't care about his future son-in-law's fiscal responsibility.

Are we surprised? The whole asking the father for permission thing floors me. I will never understand it. No one goes to the groom's mother and asks HER permission do they?

I had this whole discussion on a date a few months back, and despite the fact that I repeatedly said how uncomfortable the whole concept made me, he asserted that he would in fact insist on asking my father's permission were he to decide to marry me.

"It's just a gesture of respect for the father," he said.

"How about respect for me and the fact that I just said such a thing would bother me?" I said, flagging down the waitress and mouthing CHECK PLEASE. "Nevermind that my father would burst into laughter if you tried that. He knows I wouldn't marry anyone who would even think about it."

He didn't really have an answer for that, except to repeat the respect for the dad thing. I am so sorry that guy's not in my life right now...

Ewww! That picture makes it look like Bush is fondling his daughter!

I wouldnt be surprised!

it's too bad. Jenna has (recently) been surprisingly progressive (for the family she was born into, and how she was raised).

Ah, well- just as I suspected:
She's marrying a total dolt. Not unlike her father.

This makes me so angry I actually feel irrational. I think it's because with the things that I've heard about Jenna Bush lately (here on Feministing, too!), its frustrating to know that these are the guys she has in her life.

Is it just me, or does it look like W is grabbing Jenna's breast with his right hand? And to top it off, she looks surprised. Very wierd photo.

I'm not surprised at W's remarks, but I am disgusted by People's question.

Yes, Miss Bush looks like she's acting surprised but cheerful for the sake of the camera, given that her dad appears to be grabbing at her chest.

If you look closely, it's actually Jenna's own right hand that is fondling her breast. W's right hand isn't in the photo at all. No excuses though, I still hate W even if he's not a daughter-fondler.

I wouldn't want any future spouse of mine asking my parents' (mom OR dad) permission, but what is the general feminist consensus on if the guy were to ask permission from BOTH parents instead of just the father? Does that make it any better?? (I think it's still rather obnoxious not to just ask the future WIFE herself, but maybe for the semi-progressive-traditionalist, it's a start??)

Gopher and GottaBeMe -

I saw the picture and said 'wow Bush is grabbing her boob. Gross.' I'm glad I'm not the only perv who's mind went there?

Also, is anyone really suprised that this is coming from Bush? He's just another idiot parading misogony as 'chilvalry'. Ugghh

MissMouse, I think only part of the problem is asking only the father, the other part (and really the worse part) is that daughters are treated like property and sons are not. I suppose it would be acceptably egalitarian if both parents were asked for brides and grooms equally, but the whole thing is rather squicky anyway because parents don't own their children.

I agree Bush here is a moron for more reasons than the fact that he is a sexist jerk. Anyone can see he is pretty much ruining our economy, healthcare, education, and our internaional reputation. But as a guy I think it is totally romantic and decent of a person to ask for the father and mother for the daughter's hand in marriage.

I'm not gonna lie.

If I was marrying the daughter of prez Bush I might ask his permission first. What with all the wiretapping and secret torture prisons and such.

I wonder what Jenna thinks about this, and if prez Bush ever held a purity ball event for his daughters.

PHOTO CAPTION:

Dear me Dad! You haven't felt me up this much since the purity ball!

LMAO UCLAbodyimage! PERFECT caption!

Karen,
Bush seems to like sexually harassing women. Remember Bush and the German Chancellor Angela Merkel anyone?

Nathan!!!
A woman is NOT property!

Nathan,

Have you ever questioned the implications of why it's considered "romantic" to ask for a daughter's hand in marriage but one rarely asks for a son's hand in marriage? The latter sounds silly to most people, right? If that isn't evidence of daughters being treated as property and sons not being treated as property, I don't know what is. Disguising it as romanticism is disingenous.

I think it's respectful and appropriate to have a conversation about your decision with your future spouse's parents (bride-to-be AND husband-to-be should do this).

For instance, I think it's great that this guy wanted to talk about his financial plans and things. Jenna may very well have sat down with his mom/parents too--in fact they've probably talked more about this wedding together than he and George W have!

I don't think guys should ask *permission* per se, but it doesn't offend me if they want to sit down and have a "heads up I'm planning on joining your family; any concerns you want to discuss?" type of talk.

I think women should do this with their future mother-in-laws as well. It just sets the tone for a respectful, positive relationship between all parties. This especially pertains to close families, and if the two lovers know each others' parents already. After all this is about two families joining--not just two individuals.

Even though it's the individuals' choice, it's nice to include the parents in the celebration and decision. I'd want to be if it were my kids.

MissMouse,
That may be her own hand, but Bushs left hand looks like its practically cupping, or nearly caressing her right breast. Looks eery.

Perhaps the Bush family is something akin to the movie "Deliverance." I cant imagine any other reason a person would be as stupid as Bush is without the aid of something very taboo that concerns mother nature and who you ARE NOT supposed to have intimate relations with.

Meg77,

In the People article it says that after Jenna's fiance asked Bush for permission to marry, the parents kept it a secret from her, which implies that the man asked Bush before he asked Jenna. I think this is what people are objecting to (in addition to the permission aspect) -- taking her out of the equation and acting as though parental approval is a prerequisite to asking her if she wants to get married. I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing concerns with parents (though I can't imagine what concerns would exist that wouldn't amount to "I don't want you marrying this person") but ultimately I don't think anyone should feel obliged to have that conversation. Not everyone is terribly close (emotionally or physically) to their parents and many people (myself included) don't feel that my parents have a right to be included in my decision to get married, because that's a personal thing between me and my partner.

cheeky kitten - I cannot tell you how many times I have had that exact conversation! It is a load of crap that people think it shows respect to the bride's father. . . shouldn't respect for the bride supercede her father? I was fortunate to meet my fiancee who felt the same way I did. His family on the other hand was horribly upset to find out he hadn't asked my fathers permission to marry me. Never mind the fact that my dad would have outright laughed at him - and then I would have dumped his ass.

They also have a huge problem with the fact that I refuse to wear a veil at the wedding(because I am not a faceless and interchangeable entity who only serves one purpose) and the fact that I refuse to be "given away" also known as "walked down the aisle." (Once again, I am not my fathers property and he cannot give me to anybody) I love my dad and this has no reflection on our relationship - but the in laws do not see it this way at all. They are pretty much fking crazy and I don't really want to be related to them for the rest of my life.

Sigh.

I was agreeing with Meg here. I dont think of a woman or a man as property but it is respectful to ask the parents, kind of a am I good enough for your daughter or son thing. I never thought of the property angle and most people probably don't either when they do this.

I don't have a problem with "asking the parents" as long as a) The actual proposal happens first; b) the man (or woman) asks if it's okay with the woman (or man) before doing it and doesn't do it if she (or he) is at ALL uncomfortable with the idea; and c) if the parents "say no," it makes no difference in whether or not the marriage happens. That way it could be seen as a token gesture to the parents and not just as asking permission, which is sketchy.

Personally my major objection would be the idea of my parents knowing that a guy was going to propose to me before I did. That's just... yikes. Probably wouldn't want it myself regardless, though. Since chances are my parents will disapprove of anyone I bring home.

Err. I may be the odd duck here, but I would consider it polite if my partner talked to my parents about marrying me before proposing. In Asian cultures, family is a BIG thing, and I'd rather he be in good graces with them first (though I can understand if he won't be immediately - he's Australian and my parents are a smidgen strange!)

In the same vein, my closest friends have to be good with him first. I love him to bits, but I trust my friends too, and often they spot things I haven't noticed. So far they adore him too (one of my best friends has fallen in love with him without even meeting him) so it's all good.

I dunno. In our culture, it's considered polite. It's not the only conversation the partner has with the other side's family (and of course I am in contact with his family - his mum in particular seems to have taken a shine to me and I adore her!!) but it's just polite to inform them and get their blessing.

While it may not be appropriate to ask for 'permission' to marry a man's daughter it is respectful and appropriate to at least ask for his blessing (along with her mother's).

If it is inappropriate to ask for a man's permission to marry his daughter then it is also inappropriate for that man to walk his daughter down the aisle during the ceremony. In doing so he is symbolically 'giving her away' to the groom.

I wonder how many fathers say 'no' when asked, if any. Since a negative answer is so unlikely the act of asking is really giving the man a heads-up that you are planning on asking his daughter to marry you. It is custom and it is a polite thing to do, especially in families that are very close.

Hiker29,

Why is it a custom and polite to ask a father (or parents) to marry a daughter but virtually unheard of to ask a parent(s) to marry a son? This is what makes it frankly backwards and implies that women are property in a way that men are not.

As for this...

"If it is inappropriate to ask for a man's permission to marry his daughter then it is also inappropriate for that man to walk his daughter down the aisle during the ceremony. In doing so he is symbolically 'giving her away' to the groom."

You're right, and I personally (and others here) think both of those things are sexist traditions which treat women as property.

I think that the only version of this tradition that I'd be comfortable with would involve the *couple* getting both sets of parents together to tell them that they're planning on getting married. Maybe going as far as asking for their blessing, but that's kind of pushing it for me.

And I also played the "and whose hand is whose and where" game with that creepy picture...

MissMouse, I think it's absurd for a man to seek permission from a woman's father before proposing marriage. It's obviously sexist. And as much as people want to say, "Well he could ask the mom too!" that rarely happens.
And even if it were common for men to ask both the woman's parents, the most sexist aspect of the whole thing is the fact that the woman is inactive. Women don't ask their boyfriends' parents for permission to marry their sons. I'm sure a couple have, but it's simply not common enough to be even a blip on the radar. Why isn't it a tradition? Because men have never been considered property to be handed over from one family to another! The tradition is sexist. There is no way to argue with that.

WOW.

Nathan, someone doesn't have to INTEND something to be sexist, in order for it to be sexist. The guy can think he's being romantic and sweet and wonderful and yet in fact, unintentionally and unbeknownst to him, he is perpetuating harmful myths and stereotypes about the relationships between men and women. The thought of needing to ask another person's "permission" to marry a CONSENTING ADULT carries with it the implicit understanding that the consenting adult in question is not in fact free to make her own decisions. I agree with others here that it is respectful for both parties to make sure both sets of parents are on board, because family is important, and these two sets of parents could someday be grandparents together. It would be best if the grandparents can at least be cordial with the parents. However, I'm still squicked out by the idea of just one person going alone to the parents... it carries a hint of "the grown-ups are going to talk now, you can come back in later." I think it's weird for either side. I say talk to your families/parents together, not just one of you.

And I agree that having your father walk you down the aisle is also sexist, and not a tradition I intend to uphold. Sigh... that is one conversation I do not look forward to having. I envy those of you ladies on this site whose fathers are avowed feminists.

For that matter, and this one's a lot tougher to get even feminists on board with, I think engagement rings are sexist and I'm totally opposed to them. And while we're at it, I don't like guys "proposing" either (or girls, for that matter). If the two of you are at a point in your relationship where you want to seal your commitment with a legal and/or religious ceremony, sure, one of you might broach the subject, but it shouldn't be to the point where one person "knows" and the other person is "surprised." That just spells inequity for me, and I don't think there's anything remotely romantic about it.

Heh... I should just write my own book of revolutionary marital mores.

I find the 'asking paternal permission' tradition utterly revolting. But then, I'm with Faerylore on the whole parental involvement issue. If there's to be any, it should be in the form of an announcement of intent by both parties, parental objections be damned. Because, ultimately, it's none of my parents' fracking business whom I marry.

But then, I'd dump any guy who proposed anyway, because I make my views on marriage (i.e. I don't want to, and you aren't going to change that view.) clear from the beginning. But that's a separate issue.

Yeah, I guess Bush would have plenty of valuable advice to give about closing a sale. Didn't he bankrupt one or two companies?

If a guy asked my dad if he could marry me before he asked ME, my answer would be NO. But it's a nonissue anyway because I'd never get that serious with a guy who was supportive of backwards, sexist gender roles. No surprise that Bush is though, I mean the man and I agree on nothing so I would be shocked if he didn't treat his daughter's engagement as a business transaction between himself and the fiance.

I find the idea of asking one's fiance's parents to marry creepy and pointless, even if it's done for both the male and the female parties (which pretty much never happens, we're just talking pure theory here). It's really not up to them, so it doesn't matter what they think.

Oh and I agree with The Law Fairy that the whole idea of the man proposing is problematic. Frankly my husband and I just found the whole idea of staging a proposal to feel fake and inauthentic. I can't even remember when we decided we wanted to get married, it just kind of happened over time and a lot of discussions.

Your right Law Fairy, you don't have to intend something to be sexist in order for it to be. I agree totally.

So that means you are against VAWA and for a new gender-nuetral domestic violence law that affords equal protection and support for both genders that suffer from the violence of their partners?

That means you are also for default shared parenting bills that afford custody to both parents as the standard opposed to the legal precendent of giving the mother custody in a divorce even if both parents are equally capable?

You are also for punishing those people who are guilty of raping others as well as those who falsely claim that they were raped in order to protect victims of rape?

The list goes on and on. Sorry if this sounded like a tirade, but you get so offended by something that is so personal to people. If my girlfriend believes its important to involve her family and mine in the relationship, I will ask her parents for their blessing. While I believe wholeheartedly in independence and freedom for all, everyone still "belongs" to their parents, I belong to my mother and father and extended family. They don't own me but I still have to respect them.

Law Fairy, I completely agree with you about engagement rings and proposals, too.
I'm in a book club with a group of really cool women. They are all very smart and seemingly progressive.
A few are married, and lately it seems a lot are getting engaged. They ALL have fancy engagement rings and they all took (or plan to take) the man's last name.
If my boyfriend and I marry, we are either both wearing SIMPLE "engagement" rings (no diamonds) or neither of us will. Wearing a ring to symbolize that you're "spoken for" is so old-fashioned. And yet it's a given in our society. If you *don't* do it, YOU'RE the outsider.

What do your red herrings have to do with this issue, Nathan? "Personal" decisions can be sexist, you know.

How would you feel if your girlfriend asked your mom for permission to marry you, and then surprised you with a proposal and a ring?

The whole "it's respectful" excuse is bullshit because what if the father says "no?" Are you going to honor his wishes and forget about marrying his daughter? Or are you going to do what you'd planned to anyway? How is that "respectful?"

Maybe the question we should be asking Bush is more like Would you be happy for your daughter to work for Halliburton?

If my girlfriend did that I would feel surprised, duh! And I wouldn't mind because since I we had an open and communicating relationship she and I would have talked about this since this kind of thing is PERSONAL to us two. That is what I mean by personal that its up to the couples to decide how they feel about such issues, and both people in the relationship should respect the others feelings and wishes. How that is sexist I do not know.

Also what red herrings are you referring to. The Law Fairy opened the door to my comment and it was meant to be a red herring to take away from this specific issue since I addressed it as well. Please learn the correct meanings of your metaphors! (I am not one of those dumb illiterate men you think we all are.)