When I saw that clip for the first time it made me all kinds of nauseous. Did they not interview this woman on any current events, etc., before putting her on tv? Or the other side of it would be that they did know how ignorant she is, and were okay with that. Either way, I definitely won't be watching The View.

I think we've gone a long way even if it is just from "Not my son if he wants to stay my son" to "Not in my house".
Still not admirable, but if this is the prevailing viewpoint now, and we keep working, it'll get better.

I don't really watch TV, so I've only seen clips of this show online. They make me really appreciate Whoopi Goldberg, though. As for this clip, all I could think was wow, yes, let's just go ahead and shame children because of our retarded gender conventions.

When I worked in childcare there was a little boy who loved to play dress-up because the dresses were sparkly. He like trucks, he was aggressive, he was your stereotypical little boy except he loved things that were shiny and sparkly. He had a thing for the bling, so to speak (he was also 2).

One day his dad picked him up, saw him in a sparkly sack dress with a purple glitter headband, and flipped out. He was furious. We were "corrupting" his son, blah blah blah. He told us, don't ever let that happen again.

So we flat out ignored him, because the teachers-- who had gone to college and studied early childhood education and child psychology-- understood that it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean they're trans, it doesn't make them gay, whatever. It means they like toys that catch their eye and inspire their creativity, just like Whoopi Goldberg said.

Yeah, parents should have control over their kid's life but if a parent told a teacher, "I don't want my son to draw, drawing is a girl thing, if he tries to draw tell him no" the teacher wouldn't do that. It's impossible to police kids, it's unfair to the kids, and it's stupid.

I have a great deal of respect for Whoopi Goldberg right now.

I saw this a while ago. I sincerely hope she gets fired. She gives women a bad name. I wouldn't be so harsh on her if there wasn't a clip of her nearly every week saying something truly idiotic. First the world may be flat, then "nothing predates Christianity", now this.

What are the requirements for getting hired on this show other than having a pulse?

Gotta love the total absence of logic - "I would be fine with my son being gay, but he is not to wear dresses while he is under 18. And no sex in my house before marriage."

Uh, if your son was gay, he wouldn't be legally allowed to get married. So if your son and his partner visit you, they will never be allowed to sleep in the same room, regardless of how long they've been together?

Personally, I was more annoyed by Barbara Walters jumping from "little boy likes putting on a dress" to "oh, he must have an issue with his gender" than I was by anything Sherri Shepherd said.

"Traditional" conservatives opposing boys wearing dresses also kind of cracks me up. Back in our great-great grandparents' day, all babies and small toddlers wore dresses, because it made it easier to change them, and made it harder for them to crawl or run fast and get in trouble. Even as recently as 100 years ago, it was common to dress little boys in clothes that look very feminine to modern eyes--we have pictures of my grandfather in a frilly shirt and long curls as a small child. It all just shows how manufactured and artificial the views we have on these things are today.

This isn't going to be the popular view, and I'm trying not to defend her by any means but I grew up with a "not while you're in my house" rule and it was my parents doing what they thought was best for their child and even if you have shitty (though non abusive parents) you still have to live by their rules because they're footing the bills for your existence. I won't begrudge any parent the right to raise their child how they see fit, regardless of whether or not I agree with their view. Once the kid is out of the house then they can make up their own mind as to how they want to live. Then again, my parents weren't evolution deniers, nor stupid, so it might be very different in the Sheppard household.

I know if Shepherd's son was actually transgendered he'd have a long hard road to travel living under her roof and I would hope that she developed some sympathy. But, as not only a highly "religious" person, but as a black mother then perhaps she fears the retaliation he might face if he were to actually be allowed to cross dress in the house or out. A lot of the parents who let their transgendered kids be themselves are white, in upper class neighborhoods from what I've seen. Black people can be highly homophobic and transphobic, especially toward gay men, and if they're living in a predominately black neighborhood then that could cause some serious problems. I'd hope that she'd give her son some outlet, where he could dress up in his room or something for a little while, but hearing her I highly doubt that.

Having said that, I'm well aware that Sherri Shepherd, is only trying to reinforce old gender tropes because of her religious beliefs and that's very sad,

Sara -- You are completely right. Also, wasn't there some old article about how blue was for girls because it was "calming" and pink was for boys because anything with red indicated warlike tendency?

Fast-forward to the 21st century, where my husband and I were ORDERED by the court to dress my husband's daughter in pink if we wanted to retain visitation.

Also, Basiorana -- Thank you. That is absolutely a common story in ECE as far as I can tell. A lot of preschools make the parents sign contracts so that they understand the school runs an Anti-Bias Curriculum or whatever, and that they do not discriminate based on sex ever.

The title is more disturbing than anything that this misguided hen clatch has to say.

Transgendered children? Children?

How pathetic of a society do we have to claim in order to perversely sexualize children when, at two or three or four years of age, all they are doing is innocently exploring their world.

Transgendered children?

For pity's sake - let the little kids grow up first. Shame on you!

Fast-forward to the 21st century, where my husband and I were ORDERED by the court to dress my husband's daughter in pink if we wanted to retain visitation.

what???

"Fast-forward to the 21st century, where my husband and I were ORDERED by the court to dress my husband's daughter in pink if we wanted to retain visitation."

WHAT???!!

locomotivebreath--

being transgendered is independent of sexuality.

oy.

I can't actually view this lovely footage, since I'm at work, but I get the gist from the comments. This Sherri Sheperd Lady is clearly unhinged.

(disclaimer: I don't have kids, but I have a million nieces/nephews/"god"children) I don't find it hard to love and cherish kids. My nieces and nephews are each different in their own right. Granted, none of them are old enough to have gained their own sexuality yet (I think), but I would hope that if they found themselves to be transgendered/gay that our family would love them still.

That's what I don't get about some of these supposed "Christians" (I'm not bagging on Christians, just "those kinds") - it's really not hard to be amazed by little minds and how they work. You see yourself, your future, your past - it's actually kind of cool to witness. Bringing weird political-social bullshit into their existence seems cruel and, frankly, not very Christian.

Am I off-base? Should I just watch the video at home before I comment?

Well, what else can we expect from someone who thinks the earth is flat?

When my brother was little, he would wear dresses and play with dolls- not G.I. Joe, but Barbie. My brother is gay. Whether his wearing a dress and playing with dolls is an early indication of that, who can really say? My parents never really tried to discourage him much (although my mom did say no when he asked if he could wear her wedding dress), and humored him a lot of the time. Sometimes my dad wasn't too happy with him playing with a mermaid Barbie doll, but he never said to him, you can't play with that, those are for girls. But that's just my personal experience with something like that.

In our culture, we have very narrow and exacting definitions of what girls and boys are supposed to wear, how they are supposed to act and dress. When I was in high school I was one of those kids who liked to wear huge pants and dye my hair pink and wear weird clothes. When I started to come out of that phase and wear "normal" jeans and t-shirts my cousin said she thought it was "great" that I was becoming more feminine. More recently when I wanted to cut all my hair off I was told I'd look like a dyke, too mannish, etc.

I'm not really sure what I'm trying to conclude from all of this, other than that I think assigning boys and girls certain ways to be is detrimental to their growing and learning and creativity.

Little boys and girls who want to dress up or behave the way the opposite sex traditionally does are not necessarily transgendered. It's just authentic, uninhibited exploration.

Spider, PLEASE elaborate because I have a feeling I'm not the only one on the edge of my seat.

And locomotivebreath, transgendered has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Why didn't anyone remind her that women weren't supposed to wear pants up until fairly recently?

Also, black people can be highly homophobic? Let's not go there. AS IF that female WASP they have up there normally wouldn't have taken the same "Boys don't wear dresses" position.

As far as I know, the most hate crimes against gays are in Mass, New York and California. The black population is concentrated in the south, as are crime rates. Can you point me to something that indicates being gays in black neighborhoods have higher instances of being victims of hate crimes?

True that Walters jumped the gun on assuming that any child that tries on clothing not associated with their gender is trans. But the conversation was about what parents, teachers etc should do if they think a kid is trans, locomotivebreath1901. And thanks bittergradstudent for pointing that out. You never hear people getting all up in arms because you called a child straight (you're sexualizing them!).

Well, MirandaJay, gays are also "permitted" to be much more open about their sexuality in NY, MA and CA.
So there are more hate crimes against them simply because a.) there are more of them living there, and b.) they are easier to identify.

"Transgendered children? Children?"

In a word: Yes.

While it is unfair to jump to conclusions about a child's gender over creative choices they make while playing, it is also true that people who are transgender generally recognize their true gender from a very young age.

Transgender children are apt to act in ways that fulfill their real gender's role. Transgenderism is a naturally occurring condition, not a societal construct that we're imposing on children. Someone who is transgender will know it, even at as young an age as two, and it is important from a psychological standpoint to ensure that parents recognize it if their child is transgender.

No one should jump to conclusions based solely on a child's decision to play in a particular way, but Barbara Walters was correct to emphasize the importance of recognizing the possibility so that people can provide the proper support to their children if in fact they were born transgender.

Thanks, Jessica, for the post. This piece brings up so many interesting ideas about the agency of children. Sherri Shephard speaks as though her son as no potential to resist or deviate from the norm she desperately tries to maintain in her own home. After working for my faculty advisor as a research assistant for her upcoming book on Childhood Sexuality, my entire perspective on the social control of children changed. To add onto suissesse's comment, I think in addition to demonstrating love and compassion for children regardless of their gender expression, more adults should recognize that kids often have a greater awareness of the world than many would like to believe. Innocence is a contested term. I am not at all conflating transgender issues with sexuality but instead demonstrating that they're connected when it comes to agency and decision-making on the part of kids.

So kilts are from another culture? Do you ever see a cop funeral in the US without a bagpiper in kilts playing Amazing Grace?

This reminds me of something I once overheard. I was working at a HomeGoods store, and a little boy (maybe 5 years old) was with his mother. She wanted to buy him something for his room, and he saw something he liked. It was a bright pink footlocker/toychest sort of thing. He was begging for it, and she said "No, sweetie, you can't have that, it's pink and Daddy will be mad."
My heart just about broke right there. What a stupid, arbitrary reason to deny a kid something!

She seriously said that there is nothing that predates Christianity? Um, Judaism predates Christianity. Because, you know, Christianity came out of Judaism. Jesus was JEWISH, hello!!! Judeo-Christian Religions aside, the Vedas are at least 5,000 years old, and Buddhism predates Christianity by 500 years. I'm not positive about Islam, but I'm pretty sure it came a couple hundred years after Christianity, but again, I'm really not sure. And before any of the modern religions were being practiced, indiginous religions all over the world were being practiced.
(Religious studies major going on a rant to set her straight)

Now, more on the topic, I have to agree with Whoopi. At a certain age, they're just playing and it shouldn't be taken too seriously. I have to wonder if part of the hyper-sexualization of children in this culture is extending to parents seeing things in their children that just aren't there.

Danielle--

Muhammad lived in the sixth century. Islam talks about Jesus quite a bit, and comes from the same tradition that Judiasm and Christianity does. It is a little known fact (in the West) that the Koran commands Muslim nations to allow Christians and Jews to live within their borders unmolested, beyond requiring that they pay a seperate tax.

Anyone ever seen Ma Vie En Rose? If you're interested in transgendered children (or trans at ALL) you should. It's in French, but with subtitles. It's heart wrenching and wonderful.

I guess they have to have idiots like Sherri Shepard and Elizabeth Hassleback on there to shake things up. It'd get pretty boring if everyone agreed on everything.

After watching that clip, the only thing I'm thankful for is that Elizabeth Hassleback wasn't there. It guarantee it would have been worse.

First I would like to put out there that as a trans woman, the comments by Sheri were well...disgusting. I will be back to that later.
Secondly. Trans women are not gay men. So please do not confuse the two. How a gay male lives his life is very different then how a trans woman lives her life. We are told by those who are a biggest detractors that why couldn't we just be femme gay men, which is rather insulting to our gender identity.

With that being said the proportion of violence against trans women is often heavily tilted towards minority communities. I could go into the reasons why, but it goes beyond just culture. There is a lack of economic opportunities in these communities, and they have not just the burden of being black or hispanic to overcome, they have the burden of being trans and female. There are very few women in America that face the injustice that minority trans women face, especially with regards to employment (thus why the inclusive ENDA was so important to trans people). As a result many trans women find themselves homeless often faced with desperate choices that I myself have never had to face. Prostitution often ends up being a career not because it is desired as such, but because there is no other way to survive.

And this is where trans women of color often run into issues with violence.

Transgender day of remembrance is often filled with the told and untold stories of minority women who find themselves victims of the most horrendous hate crimes.

But remember why these are hate crimes happen. Its because of societies perceptions of gender and race are messed up.

Back to the video.
Sherri reminds me of my family who was actually quite a bit worse then her. Steeped in essentialist views of sex and gender that are often used as a way to deride all queer people, but especially trans women. It is attitudes like hers that prevent us from eventually living normal lives.

Yeah gender variant children sometimes end up gay, they sometimes end up straight, very few carry that gender variation past puberty. Also gender variants who are trans are not always the type to dress up or play with the toys of the opposite sex. Sometimes we are just the kid who never quite fits and is in general socially outcast. How children our is very complex and pinning down their behavioral habits and what they like to play with as signs of their gender identity is a foolish thing to do.

I think Simone De Beauvior in the Ethics of Ambiguity was right when she criticized the imposition of adult society on children, and she did include gender assumptions in that critque. She recognized that it is destructive not only for children and how children treat other children, but also adults. This is a prime example of this. People get to hung up on the wrong things.

I need to get better at checking my grammar when I post. That comment is riddled with errors.

Let me preface my comments by noting that I have no experience with this Shepherd person other than on the video clip linked here. If she has said "nothing predates Christianity" and made other ignorant, ridiculous remarks, I would hate for anyone to think I was defending those.

But if we are discussing this specific clip, I think the sound and fury is a little overwrought. If she is, apparently, their resident "right winger", she's pretty moderate. After all, she seemed to be totally fine with the idea of her son being gay, and even implicitly endorsed gay marriage, something that the public at large does not favour (though if you combine the support of gay marriage and civil unions, or ask the question without the option of civil unions you get close to fifty percent support).

I am a progressive father of a seven year old boy, and I must admit I would not be entirely comfortable with his putting on a dress in school. I don't think that I would go so far as Shepherd and tell the teacher not to allow it, but I would not be super comfortable with it either.

It's not as though I raise him in some homophobic way: just the opposite. I have stressed to him many times that there is nothing wrong with being gay, and that one of the reasons I don't like Republicans (he knows a lot about politics for someone his age) is that most of them tend to discriminate against gays and lesbians. Two lesbian acquaintances of mine stop by from time to time and play with the kids and give them presents, and I encourage this and point out to my son (and daughter, who is four) that these two women are a good illustration of why it is so unfair to discriminate based on sexual orientation. I will even from time to time mention when he is running through scenarios of his adult life ("the woman I marry...") that he might turn out to be gay and marry a man instead.

But let's look around us: there are far more gay men who wear pants than there are men who wear dresses. To be male and wear a dress is sticking your neck way out there. And it strikes me as the kind of thing that would get a boy mercilessly teased, or worse, throughout his school years. If he wants to do it when he is more "fully formed" and feels strong enough psychosocially to handle people's reactions, great. But to start off your school years getting labelled that way seems to me unwise.

I know that several people have already responded to locomotivebreath1901, but for fuck's sake. I'm not sure what upsets me more: the outright claim that children can't be transgender (um, talk to a transgender person. many if not most will say that they were transgender as a child), or the fact that calling a child transgender is deemed "perverse." As people have pointed out, being transgender has nothing to do with sexuality, let alone "perverse sexualization." To call acknowledging a transgender identity "perverse" and then have the nerve to say "shame on" someone else . . . Christ.

For the record, I do agree with everyone about Walter's comments. I think that her heart was genuinely in the right place and that she feels she is looking out for transgender children. I was also insulted by what she said. Unless she believes that a teacher should talk to any parent whose child wears a dress, it's terribly insulting to suggest that teachers talk to the parents of boys who wear dresses during playtime. It has the potential to cause conflict within the family, make that child feel out of place and uncomfortable with themselves and is incredibly conservative in terms of gender roles and their social limits. I do think that there may be situations where such a conversation would be appropriate, but they would be very few and far between and a teacher should have a good idea as to how a parent will react beforehand.

This isn't going to be the popular view, and I'm trying not to defend her by any means but I grew up with a "not while you're in my house" rule and it was my parents doing what they thought was best for their child and even if you have shitty (though non abusive parents) you still have to live by their rules because they're footing the bills for your existence. I won't begrudge any parent the right to raise their child how they see fit, regardless of whether or not I agree with their view. Once the kid is out of the house then they can make up their own mind as to how they want to live. Then again, my parents weren't evolution deniers, nor stupid, so it might be very different in the Sheppard household.

Ultramagnus, I'm not going to get into your other racially-based comments, but I would like to say that I grew up with the exact same type of arbitrary bullshit rules that you're discussing here, and I came out of it with a very different point of view. I came out resentful and wondering how my parents, who are generally intelligent people, could act like such fucking morons. Yeah, I think that parents do have a right to say "no crack houses or orgies under my roof," but somehow that's a little different than what we're discussing here. I also grew up with a father who treated my younger brother this way. He liked traditionally feminine toys and behaviors a lot as a kid, probably because my dad was in the navy and he only had my mom and I to hang around. He dressed up, played house and kitchen, stole my dolls from me and painted his toenails. I would think that my dad was acting irrationally and stupidly regardless -- and probably especially -- if my brother had indeed turned out to be transgender or gay. But as other people here have said, it usually doesn't work that way. In fact, he's a lot like my dad, now.

Oh please. My 7 and 11 year old SONS like to clonk around in my heels (which by my younger-self's standards are pretty LOW). I have no fear that this will make them want to suck teh dick as adults, and even if they do, I don't give a s**t what they do in their private time

Thanks bittergrad student. I noticed after the fact that I failed to include Islam in the Judeo-Christian religions, even though it is an Abrahamic religion. My school offers a class on Islam, which I have yet to take, so I still only know the basics.

Miranda,

No, I can't cite statistics, the only thing I have is anecdotal and personal experience growing up, in both a predominately white education environment and in a black community where being gay was seen as the worst thing you could be, especially if you were a black man. Then I went off to college and found my black friends who were from Kansas City and Chicago and St. Louis grew up with similar experiences, not to mention my black male friends and the conversations about that I've heard them have. The only thing close that I have is research I did in my undergrad study where I researched black attitudes about homosexuality and it could seem to come off as worse than how whites view homosexuality because a lot of black people believe(d) that was only a "white problem". There are very few out gay white celebrities and even fewer black gay celebrities or even out black gay public figures (RuPaul not withstanding)because there is still a huge taboo about it within the community, especially when it comes to terms of the exaggerated "manhood" of hip/hop culture.

Though I completely agree that Elizabeth Hasselbeck would have agreed with Shepherd on the gender roles, because she believes that tripe too.

Ultramagnus, I'm not going to get into your other racially-based comments, but I would like to say that I grew up with the exact same type of arbitrary bullshit rules that you're discussing here, and I came out of it with a very different point of view. I came out resentful and wondering how my parents, who are generally intelligent people, could act like such fucking morons.

I'm sorry to hear that Cara, but we had different parents, so naturally our experience would be different and no one parenting style works for everyone. While I was in my parent's home of course I didn't like it but coming out of it and seeing what they did and how it made me the person I am today I'm happy I had them as parents. They did what they thought was best for me. It wasn't like I was living in a hell house, just that my parents made clear there were certain things that they would absolutely not tolerate and I was to follow those rules until I got out of their house and then I could do whatever the hell I wanted. Most of the lesser rules, like drinking or cursing in front of them, I can do now when I'm at home.

I didn't say that every parent should have those rules, just that I understand that thinking and that I will never begrudge any parent the right to raise their child how they see fit, for better or for worse (worse not including blatant child abuse, be it mental or physical). I wouldn't want anyone telling me how to raise my child and I won't do it to anyone else either.

With regards to the comment on transgendered children by locomotive, I would hardly call it "perverse" to engage in discourse on the gender socialization and performance of children. Further, as many others have noted, trans-identification is separate from sexual orientation.
As far as the comments about race go, there are certainly noted patterns among certain ethnic groups in terms of their tolerance or intolerance of gender and sexuality. However, I would never suggest nor would I condone labeling blacks or African-Americans as anti-trans. Perhaps the fundamental of this issue is that everyone is unique, within a gender or a race or any other group with which that individual identifies.

I definitely appreciated Goldberg's thoughts, and I think that regardless of how much anything influences sexuality, gender identification, or other identity factors, we should always remember that children deserve a childhood. Reprimanding a child for playing with sparkly dresses does little for conditioning a healthy psyche. Imagination is truly the sweetness of our youth, so whether we agree that dolls have nothing to do with homosexuality or that wearing dresses is an indication of gender identity, we should all agree that children deserve fun and stressfree years in their youth.

Oh my god, the racism is astounding. I can't believe I have to read this tripe on these boards. This is meant to be feminist discourse? My fucking foot.

feministorbust:

Do you have a title/author for that forthcoming book on childhood sexuality? or is it already published? I would really like to check it out when it becomes available.

Thanks!

However, I would never suggest nor would I condone labeling blacks or African-Americans as anti-trans.

Except that when you say

there are certainly noted patterns among certain ethnic groups in terms of their tolerance or intolerance of gender and sexuality.

then you are suggesting exactly that.

annajcook:

"Knowing Innocence: Theorizing Childhood Sexuality" (Palgrave MacMillan, forthcoming) by R. Danielle Egan and Gail Hawkes.

Their analysis is cross-cultural, focusing on discourses from the US, UK and Australia. I will keep you posted on when it is in print! Thanks for your interest :)

So...does that mean that Sherri Shepard would let her son sleep with his boyfriend if they were married....and would she support gay marriage? Cuz that was the first thing I thought when she said, If you're not married, you're not sleeping together in my house.

Several have already made the point quite succinctly, but as a transwoman, perhaps throwing in my thoughts of being trans as a child might be useful. The basic point here is that sexuality and gender are indeed two very distinct things, and it is entirely possible for a child to be aware of the fact, even very early in socialization experiences, that hir gender does not align with hir birth sex. Most of the transpeople I know, myself included, have experienced this phenomenon from a ridiculously early age. (Of course, this is not always the case, ymmv.)

One's gender expression might later align with a sexuality, but there are always variances. I was a very feminine little boy, but certainly do not take my role as a woman to be defined around some constructed sense of femininity. I am who I am. To that end, I am also a lesbian, so that throws a monkey wrench in most people's conception of the point where gender and sexuality converge anyhow.

I have no deeper points to make at the moment, but simply wanted to throw out my perspective as fuel for further discussion.

When my aunt was pregnant, she bought a lot of books on going through pregnancy and having a baby. I was reading one of the books that was specifically written for the first year after the child is born.

It was pretty awesome to see that the book addressed issues just like this one. It said that if a child engages in activity that society doesn't think "fits" the child's gender, it would actually be psychologically damaging to try to change the child's actions. It's actually much healthier to let the child do what they want to, as long as no harm is being done. It also said that letting a child play with toys that aren't their "gender" doesn't actually mean anything about their future. So, there's really no need to jump to conclusions.

I'm sure Walter's intentions were good when she was trying to point out that a boy dressing up in dresses can be an early sign of being transgender, even though it really doesn't automatically mean the child is having problems with sexual identity.

And does anyone else notice that it's way more controversial for boys to play with girl's toys than it is for a girl to be a tomboy? I guess it has to do with society's hatred of the feminine and associating that with weakness.

I am left wondering if Sherri's daughter is allowed to wear pants, as boys do.

She is in effect telling her children that femininity is negative, in comparison to masculinity. If her daughter is (presumably) allowed to wear pants, a traditionally masculine style of dress, why should her son be allowed to wear a 'feminine' dress?

What a terrible message to send!

SlackerInc, you still have a lot of work to do as an LGBT ally and as a progressive father. Encouraging your token lesbian friends to spend time with your son and reminding him that he might "turn out gay" does not excuse you from challenging what is left of your own transphobia. A transgendered identity is not a choice and it is not something that can be postponed. Trans children aren't sticking their necks way out there -- our transphobic culture, including attitudes like yours, are sticking their necks out for them before they're even born. The way things are now, coming out at any age is dangerous but that doesn't mean a trans child will be better off if they wait until they're more "fully formed." The self-esteem, confidence, and emotional strength you're talking about will be stunted and beaten down so long as someone is forced to deny their true selves, and as many people have pointed out, transfolks often recall knowing their real gender for as long as they can recall anything.

I think you need to look more at the intersections of sexism and homophobia as they relate to transphobia. The message you are giving your son is that homosexuality is fine but gender deviance isn't. First of all, being queer is a form of gender deviance because our binary is in part defined in terms of sexuality. Secondly, progressive parents like you will likely accept a lot more gender deviance in daughter than in a son. This double-standard comes from the fact that as a culture we still hold on to this notion that for male-born people to relinquish their (superior) masculinity and instead adopt (inferior) feminine traits is shameful, if not totally inconceivable.

If you're comfortable telling your son it's all right if he's gay, you should be comfortable telling him it's all right if he doesn't identify as a son. And you should support him any time he tells you he does, including tomorrow morning at the breakfast table.

SlackerInc, you still have a lot of work to do as an LGBT ally and as a progressive father. Encouraging your token lesbian friends to spend time with your son and reminding him that he might "turn out gay" does not excuse you from challenging what is left of your own transphobia. A transgendered identity is not a choice and it is not something that can be postponed. Trans children aren't sticking their necks way out there -- our transphobic culture, including attitudes like yours, are sticking their necks out for them before they're even born. The way things are now, coming out at any age is dangerous but that doesn't mean a trans child will be better off if they wait until they're more "fully formed." The self-esteem, confidence, and emotional strength you're talking about will be stunted and beaten down so long as someone is forced to deny their true selves, and as many people have pointed out, transfolks often recall knowing their real gender for as long as they can recall anything.

I think you need to look more at the intersections of sexism and homophobia as they relate to transphobia. The message you are giving your son is that homosexuality is fine but gender deviance isn't. First of all, being queer is a form of gender deviance because our binary is in part defined in terms of sexuality. Secondly, progressive parents like you will likely accept a lot more gender deviance in daughter than in a son. This double-standard comes from the fact that as a culture we still hold on to this notion that for male-born people to relinquish their (superior) masculinity and instead adopt (inferior) feminine traits is shameful, if not totally inconceivable.

If you're comfortable telling your son it's all right if he's gay, you should be comfortable telling him it's all right if he doesn't identify as a son. And you should support him any time he tells you he does, including tomorrow morning at the breakfast table.

thanks, feministorbust, it's going on my reading list :).

"Gotta love the total absence of logic - 'I would be fine with my son being gay, but he is not to wear dresses while he is under 18. And no sex in my house before marriage.'

"Uh, if your son was gay, he wouldn't be legally allowed to get married."

Unless he and his fiancé move to Massachusetts or Canada or somewhere. After their wedding, they could have marital sex in her house during visits.

"being transgendered is independent of sexuality."

Indeed. It's like the way my dad didn't perversely sexualize me when I was a baby and he called me "she" instead of "he" or "it."

"She seriously said that there is nothing that predates Christianity? Um, Judaism predates Christianity. Because, you know, Christianity came out of Judaism. Jesus was JEWISH, hello!!!"

Indeed. The "there is nothing that predates Christianity" thing is even stupider than the "everyone worshipped the Goddess until Christianity came along" thing I saw on another forum a while ago.

"I'm not positive about Islam, but I'm pretty sure it came a couple hundred years after Christianity"

My guess is 700something years.

You know how it's 2007 a.D. (anno Domini, starting approx. at the birth of Jesus)? It's 1420something a.H.l. (anno Hejira lunar, starting approx. from Mohammed's move from Medina to Mecca) and 1380something a.H.s. (anno Hejira solar, same thing but a solar calendar instead of a lunar one).

"But let's look around us: there are far more gay men who wear pants than there are men who wear dresses. To be male and wear a dress is sticking your neck way out there. And it strikes me as the kind of thing that would get a boy mercilessly teased, or worse, throughout his school years. If he wants to do it when he is more 'fully formed' and feels strong enough psychosocially to handle people's reactions, great. But to start off your school years getting labelled that way seems to me unwise."

Good points there. I'm also reminded of this advice column, which points out that there can be lots more to being yourself than just what you wear:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/magazine/articles/2007/12/09/green_hair_for_interviews

"My wonderful students often ask me about appropriate attire for internship and job interviews: Do I have to remove my nose, lip, and eyebrow jewelry? Do I really need to change my hair color from green? Can't I just wear jeans? I am aware of the need to respect and understand individuality. How should I coach them?"

"The best thing, I think, is to frame the argument as about empowerment, not conformity. By wearing work-appropriate attire, you're not mindlessly submitting to other people's expectations - you're strategically controlling their perceptions...

"...Also, point out that there is power in concealing parts of one's identity. Photographer Peter Parker doesn't go to job interviews in the Spidey suit, does he?..."

I really enjoyed that this issue was adressed. I know some of you have said this, but I find it ridiculous that Ms. Shepard is so completely clueless. It is obvious that she is ignorant about gender socialization.

seriously sometimes I get so sad knowing that this is the way the mass majority of people think. Because Ms. Shepard has a loud crazy voice when she declared her feelings the crowd laughed loudly, instead of recognizing that the tone was a cover up for her lack of knowledge about the subject.

I really enjoyed that this issue was adressed. I know some of you have said this, but I find it ridiculous that Ms. Shepard is so completely clueless. It is obvious that she is ignorant about gender socialization.

seriously sometimes I get so sad knowing that this is the way the mass majority of people think. Because Ms. Shepard has a loud crazy voice when she declared her feelings the crowd laughed loudly, instead of recognizing that the tone was a cover up for her lack of knowledge about the subject.

Sandinista, I was not promoting labeling a racial group as anti-trans or homophobic. I was, however, as a scholar of race and gender, sharing the fact that there is a wealth of research on cultures of (in)tolerance within ethnic communities (white, black, African-America, Chicano, etc.). Saying that there have been noted patterns is not the same as saying that "black people are homophobic." Studies of minority communites sometimes show cultural differences that contribute to tolerance or antitolerance, but such academic research should never be applied for stereotyping and labels.

Some things to note:

1. The reason Barbara Walters is talking so much about transgendered children is that she did a tv segment a while ago where she interviewed and transgendered children and their parents, about what their life was like and how it happens. It's very interesting(look it up on youtube). So, I think that's a particular issue of concern for her, even though it doesn't justify her somewhat clueless attitude about assuming that because a boy plays dress-up in princess costumes he's incredibly likely to be transgendered. Really, though it's an important issue it was a bit of a nonsequitir from the topic at hand-how bad it is for kids to not conform to societally approved gender roles.

2. I actually think it's good that Sherri Shepard is on the view, ignorant as she is, because the discussion would be less interesting and I think less effective for people holding similar views to watch the rest of the women agree with each other(so, for mainstream audiences better that Shepard is there). This is why debates tend to be more interesting than lectures (if more irritating too, but that's another topic).

I also have to say it's great that a lot of good arguments and liberal positions on this issue are being presented on a mainstream show-it's very good when mainstream shows go beyond just "accept gays" to "challenge gender norms." Sure, it could be better, but it's still pretty good as is.

The level at which people continue to freak out about gender deviance astounds me. It's hard for me to understand why there has to be such concerted efforts to control the actions and inclinations of men and women (in this case children) with regard to their gender identity.

What need to happen is more acceptance of transgender people and in general an encouragement of all to see gender as a continuum, men and women as more similar than different, and not as beings with personality traits and tendencies that are always or must be polar opposites.

And you're right, tupelights, that's exactly why the double standard exists. As a female, I had much more freedom to be masculine than my brother had to be feminine. There's something inherently flawed about this.

I was raised on Star Trek: The Next Generation. I've loved Whoopi Goldberg ever since. :) She only got a few sentences in around all that yelling, but they were all spot on. Everyone else seemed to be yelling about the surface (non)issues of boys wearing dresses or girls playing with toy guns, and she cut straight to the roots. She's wicked awesome.

Tupelights,

Interesting comments--I appreciate your sharing them, even if they were not especially kind. You may be right about the "transphobia" thing: both the father of a good friend of mine, and my own second cousin, are genetically male and live their lives as women. I will admit (hopefully I will not get flayed alive for this) that I find them both faintly ridiculous and kind of sad to contemplate, though I don't let them know this (at least I try my best not to). Whereas I would never in a million years think this about a gay man or lesbian woman (unless they just happened to be ridiculous for some other reason than their sexual orientation). So maybe I'm more of a LGB ally than LGBT ally...?

I don't think it's fair, by the way, to dismiss the lesbians I and my kids hang out with as "tokens". I have known many people throughout my life who are non-heterosexual (heck, one of my mother's best friends lives in a lesbian commune), but I would not go out of my way to seek them as "tokens" any more than I would avoid them because of their sexual orientation. It just develops organically, and how is that my fault?

Alan

Tupelights,

Interesting comments--I appreciate your sharing them, even if they were not especially kind. You may be right about the "transphobia" thing: both the father of a good friend of mine, and my own second cousin, are genetically male and live their lives as women. I will admit (hopefully I will not get flayed alive for this) that I find them both faintly ridiculous and kind of sad to contemplate, though I don't let them know this (at least I try my best not to). Whereas I would never in a million years think this about a gay man or lesbian woman (unless they just happened to be ridiculous for some other reason than their sexual orientation). So maybe I'm more of a LGB ally than LGBT ally...?

I don't think it's fair, by the way, to dismiss the lesbians I and my kids hang out with as "tokens". I have known many people throughout my life who are non-heterosexual (heck, one of my mother's best friends lives in a lesbian commune), but I would not go out of my way to seek them as "tokens" any more than I would avoid them because of their sexual orientation. It just develops organically, and how is that my fault?

Alan

Tupelights,

Interesting comments--I appreciate your sharing them, even if they were not especially kind. You may be right about the "transphobia" thing: both the father (now "parent") of a good friend of mine, and my own second cousin, are genetically male and live their lives as women. I will admit (hopefully I will not get flayed alive for this) that I find them both faintly ridiculous and kind of sad to contemplate, though I don't let them know this (at least I try my best not to). Whereas I would never in a million years think this about a gay man or lesbian woman (unless they just happened to be ridiculous for some other reason than their sexual orientation). I have even taken that online test that digs under the surface to look for hidden biases and found that I have a slight bias in *favour* of gays and lesbians (same for ethnic minorities, which I'm also proud to note). So maybe I'm more of a LGB ally than LGBT ally...? I'm strongly opposed to all genital mutilation (including male circumcision), which makes it impossible for me to support "sex change" surgery.

I don't think it's fair, by the way, to dismiss the lesbians I and my kids hang out with as "tokens". I have known many people throughout my life who are non-heterosexual (heck, one of my mother's best friends lives in a lesbian commune), but I would not go out of my way to seek them as "tokens" any more than I would avoid them because of their sexual orientation. It just develops organically, and how is that my fault?

Alan

Tupelights,

Interesting comments--I appreciate your sharing them, even if they were not especially kind. You may be right about the "transphobia" thing: both the father (now "parent") of a good friend of mine, and my own second cousin, are genetically male and live their lives as women. I will admit (hopefully I will not get flayed alive for this) that I find them both faintly ridiculous and kind of sad to contemplate, though I don't let them know this (at least I try my best not to). Whereas I would never in a million years think this about a gay man or lesbian woman (unless they just happened to be ridiculous for some other reason than their sexual orientation). I have even taken that online test that digs under the surface to look for hidden biases and found that I have a slight bias in *favour* of gays and lesbians (same for ethnic minorities, which I'm also proud to note). So maybe I'm more of a LGB ally than LGBT ally...? I'm strongly opposed to all genital mutilation (including male circumcision), and I find the modern Western trend toward increasing use of elective plastic surgery troubling as well--so at the very least it is hard for me to think "sex change" surgery is a good thing.

But leaving all that aside, I think you err in imagining that since "coming out is difficult at any age" you can draw an equivalence between an adult man wearing a dress and a young boy doing the same, in terms of the social repurcussions. The vast majority of adults, a few rednecks aside, will not harass a man who chooses to wear a dress (though they might stare, they are unlikely to aggressively confront such a person). Whereas grade school boys would almost certainly make such a boy's life a living hell.

I don't think it's fair, by the way, to dismiss the lesbians I and my kids hang out with as "tokens". I have known many people throughout my life who are non-heterosexual (heck, one of my mother's best friends lives in a lesbian commune), but I would not go out of my way to seek them as "tokens" any more than I would avoid them because of their sexual orientation. It just develops organically, and how is that my fault?

Alan

Ack--sorry for the multiple posts! My browser just sat there doing nothing...I copied my text and went to check and still saw nothing. Finally I even added a paragraph to my last attempt! I am redfaced, and again I apologise.

I will admit (hopefully I will not get flayed alive for this) that I find them both faintly ridiculous and kind of sad to contemplate, though I don't let them know this (at least I try my best not to).

Come within sight of me, pal, and I will flay you alive. You have no idea how hurtful and offensive a statement like this is to trans women.

And, a male-assigned person who wears female-assigned clothing is not "sticking [hir] neck out". It's society, the patriarchy, and people like you who are wielding the axes. Saying something like that is blaming the victim, and is no different from the "you shouldn't have worn that short skirt / been drinking / dared to live your life" crap that is thrown in the faces of rape victims.

Hey Alan,

I recognize that you're trying to engage openly and kindly here, so I'm going to try to be open and kind in return -- advance apologies if I sound pissed off.

I'm pretty shocked by your assertion that The vast majority of adults, a few rednecks aside, will not harass a man who chooses to wear a dress (though they might stare, they are unlikely to aggressively confront such a person). Not only is it completely incorrect to suggest that adults don't perpetuate violence against trans folks, it's also way classist to suggest that only "rednecks" would do this kind of thing. As a genderqueer, masculine-presenting, female-bodied woman, I can tell you that I (and literally everybody I know who is genderqueer/gender non-conforming/trans/etc) face violence everywhere, all the time, at the hands of adults as well as young folks. Folks who are not being read as cis- or gender-normative men and women, regardless of how they identify, face a lot of shit, and I'm just as offended by your suggestion that only "rednecks" would perpetrate violence as I am by your complete negation of my and my people's experiences.

I do recognize that what you're saying is that you want your kid to be safe, and that you would worry about his safety if he were to wear a dress to school. The obvious solution to me would be to fight to change the gender oppression and transphobia going on in his school, not to forbid him from wearing a dress. If my parents had forbidden me from presenting the way I feel comfortable presenting because they were supposedly worried about my safety, I would have freaked out. I know what's best for me, and nobody else, and that's been the case at least since I was like 13, if not younger. Kids need to be supported and loved by their parents, and parents need to listen to what kids say they need. So much pain and damage can be inflicted on us when we're young, by our parents' refusal to acknowledge us for who we have come to be, who we know ourselves as. The best thing you could ever do to keep your kid safe would be to love him and let him know that you respect him and however he identifies.

You need to seriously work on your internalized transphobia if you think that transwomen are sad and faintly ridiculous. That shit is offensive, and this community shouldn't have to check you on that. Do it yourself. Go work on that.

Sherri Shepherd is a moron. She has now said
1) I don't know if the world is flat.
2) No one came before the Christians (in reference to the Greeks).
and
3) My kid won't ever wear a dress, be gay, or have sex in my house.

I think they only keep her on the show because The View now gets blogged about every time Sherri opens her mouth.

"The obvious solution to me would be to fight to change the gender oppression and transphobia going on in his school, not to forbid him from wearing a dress."

Not to forbid him from wearing a dress (a la "they're all gonna laugh at you!!! wait until you move out of town if you want to be yourself")...

...and not to push him to go to school in a dress either (a la "stop caring what other people think!!! wait until 100% unsuperficial people move into town if you want to practice social skills") either. The choice of how to express which facets of his identity in which situations should be his.

I'm somewhat reminded of when my face started growing the hair I inherited from Iran via Mom. She plucked her own out but must have thought that was "too adult" for a 10-year-old because she told me to bleach instead.

I was already slow at learning social skills, I felt very lonely instead of thriving without friends, and following Mom's advice made things worse. Even after I switched to shaving and plucking, the other kids remembered my blonde beard and moustache, and I couldn't have a fully female reputation again until I moved from my hometown to a dorm. It still would have been hard for me if I'd removed the hair from the start, but it wouldn't have been as hard.

"You need to seriously work on your internalized transphobia if you think that transwomen are sad and faintly ridiculous. That shit is offensive, and this community shouldn't have to check you on that. Do it yourself. Go work on that."

Right on!

As a feminist it's always been my belief that all things masculine and feminine (pants vs. dresses) are social constructions.

So, when biological males say things like "I've always liked putting on dresses and doing girly things" and then that translates into wanting a sex change operation - well, it just totally confuses me. It contradicts my entire belief system about gender.

I've tried reading more on the subject but I just get totally frustrated with the personal testimonies that go "I always wanted to wear make up" or "I always liked doing boy stuff" and just give up and can't see why I should take it seriously! And I HATE that's how I feel but I just simply don't get it.

Is anyone willing to try to explain it to me?

hey mirandajay,

i'm totally willing to talk with you about gender constructions and trans identity, shoot me an email at hannahwins@gmail.com and we can chat.

One thing that's happening and affecting your view, Miranda, is that most media depictions of transwomen completely ignore all but the femme-iest of transwomen. Transwomen run the full range of butch to femme identities, just as ciswomen do. So part of what's happening is that we're given a distorted view of what it means to be trans.

Another thing that plays into the kind of rhetoric that you find objectionable is that the medical gatekeepers who determine whether or not a person is entitled access to the surgeries and medications that tranwomen need to make liveable lives for themselves have historically been quite conservative when it comes to gender roles. So transwomen needed to create such narratives and stress their femme-iness in order to obtain the care they needed--these are narratives that were formed in response to major social/medical pressures. As an example, I know of a transwoman who, back in the day, had her psychiatrist refuse to sign off on her surgery for an extra year because she had worn (gasp!) jeans to an appointment, which clearly demonstrated that she was not really feminine enough to live as a woman (never mind the fact that this was at a time when those of us born with vaginas schlumped around in jeans constantly). Narratives take on lives of their own, but it's really important not to overlook the specific cultural pressures that form them.

When not being forced to talk in sound bites, transwomen I have met speak with a great deal more nuance about what it mean to grow up with a different gender identity than the one they were being assigned by the outer world. It's not about playing with dolls or dressing up--certainly, not all transvestites or effeminate gay men identify as women--it's about an inner sense of identity that does not match with one's outer identity. In all honesty, I don't know how or why this happens. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

In my opinion, gender identity, like most complex human feelings, comes out of the way socialization affects one's innate character. Our patriarchal gender binary does its damnedest to socialize us into a given gender identity based on our genitals. But the patriarchy is not all-powerful. It can't overcome many women's innate drives to do science, for example, and it is being actively opposed by other social forces. It does not seem beyond the realm of possibility to me that in a small minority of cases, its socialization interacts with a person's innate character to produce exactly the opposite effect than the one demanded by the gender binary, to produce a person with male genitalia who has a strong, overwhelming sense of identity as a woman.

MirandaJay: "Is anyone willing to try to explain it to me?"

I believe it is quite simple. The rest of society is not as ready as you are. There was a time "I always liked doing 'boy' stuff" could have referred to getting an education or working outside the home. You also say:

"As a feminist it's always been my belief that all things masculine and feminine (pants vs. dresses) are social constructions."

Excellent. And revolutionary, because about half of people are male, then as I read earlier today, 66% of women are *not* feminists. Therefore, it is possible at least 83% of other people will make statements that grate on you.

hannah: "The obvious solution to me would be to fight to change the gender oppression and transphobia going on in his school, not to forbid him from wearing a dress."

I'm a man who'd like more variety in what I wear. I am able to wear men's kimono without harm in my community, despite the looks, and even receive some compliments from older Japanese women. However, my nine year old son who wants to wear his sister's dresses (she herself wears them only for special occasions) would be nothing less than a target in basically any setting. My son can wear red, one of his favorite colors. I don't wear red pants, and I wouldn't let him wear pink pants, either (I have pink dress shirts). I have LGBTQQ in my family. They get along just fine in society. But they don't wear signs to advertise it. It would be pretty damned hard to miss a man or boy in pink pants or a dress.

Yes, the obvious solution would be for the closed minded people to change their minds, but as you have told us, ALL the people you know are in danger of violence "everywhere, all the time," despite whatever you, and ALL other feminist or LGBT activists do. This is not encouraging. If I choose not to make myself or my son a public target of violence, "everywhere, all the time," and even more so by drawing attention to myself by being outspoken, that is my choice to make.

My son will be an adult, able to make his own choices, and look out for himself as a "man," well before the average man or boy will be accepted dressing "like a woman."

MirandaJay:

Others have given a you the short answers. I'll offer my own analogy, if you were offered a choice to become physically male for the rest of your life (with no going back), would you? If not, it's probably because something deep in your subconscious is saying "because I'm not male," yes? The same is true for many trans woman.

For an more in-depth answer (and a look at how trans issues intersection with feminist issues) I'd recommend checking out Julia Serano's excellent book, "Whipping Girl."

Alan:

I know you're trying... but yeah, your feelings toward trans woman ARE pretty offensive. Try substituting "blacks" or "Jews" or whatever in your "faintly ridiculous and kind of sad to contemplate" sentence and see how it comes across. And if you think genital reassignment surgery is "mutilation," try this thought experiment. Imagine you woke tomorrow, with a vagina rather than a penis? Would you want your penis back? I suspect you'd probably want to bring your body back into congruence with your inner sense of maleness, yes? Would it be "mutilation" to use surgery to make that happen?

FWIW, your comments come across as not just transphobic but also misogynistic (i.e. you're reacting to them "lowering" their status by living as women). Again, I'd recommend reading Serano's book if you want to unlearn some of that.

I am not Alan, but I have done that kind of thought experiment myself numerous times before. As long as the change is not too drastic (i.e. suddenly becoming an elderly homeless woman with chronic health issues), I like to believe I could accept waking up to whoever I became, including white, black, openly gay, or a woman. Since you put it so explicitly, if I woke tomorrow with a vagina, my wife and I might both love it.

"William's Doll", anyone!? That's all I'm going to say.

Well, thanks for the responses.

I think EG's makes the most sense to me. It's not the sex change operation that bothers/confuses me, Lena. It's the GENDER identity issues.

It's the equating changing your biological sex because you like wearing dresses or pants or playing with dolls instead of trucks.

MirandaJay, I had some similar questions about trans, and this thread on Feministe: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/28/what-trans-means-to-me/ cleared up a lot of them up for me.

"I think EG's makes the most sense to me. It's not the sex change operation that bothers/confuses me, Lena. It's the GENDER identity issues.

"It's the equating changing your biological sex because you like wearing dresses or pants or playing with dolls instead of trucks."

Yeah, the impression I got is that who wants to play with which toys isn't enough info to tell who identifies with which gender.

For example, suppose 3 kids with penises play with Barbie dolls. Maybe one is a boy who thinks "who says boys can't play with these?", one is a transgirl who thinks "they say girls should play with these so I will", and one is another boy who thinks "playing with my sister's toys is fun because it annoys her"?

Wow, Mina! My 9 year old is number one. He claims to like being a boy despite associating with girls and "their" things.

I'm much more flexible with my identity, but like women only.

Lena,

I don't believe I'm misogynistic--in part because contemplating waking up with a vagina (as long as I also woke up with breasts and other feminine features) doesn't really sound bad to me. I'm sure I'd be a lesbian, though, unless something also changed radically in my brain.

I think women are awesome, and frankly I have to admit the world would be a better place if there were more women and fewer men, and just the opposite if it were the other way around. Certainly, as Ann Coulter recently said, if women were eliminated from the American electorate, we'd have total Republican dominance (which she of course thinks would be great--she apparently hates her own gender). There are a few cool men around, but when you look at all the violence, capitalist exploitation, and so on...men have a bad record.

Getting back to "sex change" surgery (which doesn't give one ovaries, a uterus, etc., which is why I put that in quotes): I guess I don't fundamentally accept the premise that people need to surgically alter their body parts to fit what they believe is their "true" self. There's that guy who thinks of himself as a tiger and has had whiskers surgically attached and his face altered. Where do you draw the line? How do you differentiate between "valid" reasons for surgically altering one's body and those that are signs of mental illness?

I also don't think being black is equivalent to being transsexual, though being Jewish might be a better analogy since it is a chosen religious viewpoint (and I am an atheist who dislikes most religion including Judaism, though Buddhism seems okay).

Thanks for engaging in the discussion, even if you aren't crazy about my perspective.

Alan

Getting back to "sex change" surgery (which doesn't give one ovaries, a uterus, etc., which is why I put that in quotes)

But there are plenty of cisgendered women who lack ovaries and a uterus, such as those who've undergone radical hysterectomies, and women with certain chromosomal abnormalities. Certainly you're not suggeseting that ovaries and a uterus make one more authentically a woman than a vagina, let alone one's inner, stable sense of identity.

I guess I don't fundamentally accept the premise that people need to surgically alter their body parts to fit what they believe is their "true" self.

I'm not sure why you're using so much hedging language here--"what they believe is their 'true' self." Surely they're far more qualified, by and large, to assess their own identities than random internet bystanders? And why put "true" in quotation marks? If you're making a philosophical comment on the impossibility of ever knowing any truth at all, I suppose that's one thing, but I suspect it's a slur on transpeople's sense of self, and I don't see why.

But your point is a different one from the issue of transexuality in general. There are plenty of transpeople who opt not to have sexual reassignment surgery for various reasons. That doesn't mean that their identities are somehow invalid, or, on the other hand, that those who do require sexual reassignment surgery don't need it. There are just different ways of navigating an identity as a transperson.

Your tigerman analogy doesn't work--I highly doubt that the tigerman is living as an actual tiger, on a wildlife preserve, hunting and eating herbivores, vulnerable to poachers, without any amenities of modern life. Transwomen are women and experience life as such.

Why do you think that being trans is a choice?

The thing is, gender is learned. Once that little boy puts on a dress and gets corrected with something like, "Boys don't wear dresses. Girls wear dresses," they just learned gender. If he wasn't corrected, him putting on a dress would be gender neutral behavior, at least to him. Now, even if a child was labelled transgendered from when he first started wearing dresses, I don't think he would learn to be transgendered. Even though a lot of transgendered males might say, "I've always known I was female deep down. I liked wearing my sister's clothes and playing with my sister's toys," I think that's a way to make a very complicated situation easier for them to grasp, like they're trying to find a reason that makes sense to them.

And jeez, even when Elizabeth Hasselbeck isn't there, someone on The View ends up saying something kind of dumb. Props to Whoopi for keeping it together and trying to understand Sherri. Whoopi is always so nice to her, even with the whole "Is the world flat" thing.

Oh the slippery slope theory. If you let men become women, where will the craziness end? Next thing you know, they'll be marrying goats!

Alan:
Those are the single most offensive statements I have ever read on feministing.

Equating trans medical care (be it surgery or hrt) to mutilation and claiming trans people are mentally ill for seeking out this care is by far the most insensitive thing you can say to trans people.

You are throwing out misogynistic and trans misogynistic viewpoints that that have been around for years.

The bodies we are born with do not fit our identities. Period. This is really all about control over ones own body, and when I say the same patriarchal assumptions that are detrimental to womens health care are also present with trans health care, well your opinions are prime example number one.

You are the type that throws up barriers for trans people to get medical care that in many cases is life saving. This is NOT cosmetic surgery for those who chose to get it. HRT is not just some fun thing to do. It is how men and women who were born with basically a birth defect come to a point of congruence.

If you don't get it. FINE. But don't force upon us your assumptions regarding medical care and call what we need to do mutilation.

You ask why can't we be comfortable in our own bodies. We can't our own bodies are NOT who we are.

There is nothing more disgusting then a cis-gendered man saying that what a trans person has to do is mutilation and calling it mentally ill.

Also last time I checked, the unemployment rate in black communities did not hover around 60-70%, which is percisely the unemployment rate for trans women as a whole. I could go into the suicide rates or persistent discrimination as well.

Your assumptions about this being a choice is disgusting as well.

Alan no offense your words not only strike me as transphobic, but also misogynistic. Why? Because it assumes women who are born with biological disadvantages cannot make decisions on their own regarding their bodies, and assumes their crazy for making those decisions. So to say this is upsetting to a trans person is more mildly upsetting...its outrageous.

If you don't get it leave it at that. Its pretty hard to understand if your are not trans, we are fine with that. But respect our gender identity and who we say, and don't assume we are mentally ill because of it. This is a medical problem, and don't force your assumptions as somebody who does not have to deal with this issue onto us. It reeks of the patriarchy.

Also the focus on the surgical aspect is also a bit off putting because it focuses on basically a minor part of how a trans person lives their lives and comes into congruence.

Sorry Alan, but your assumptions...need to go. Read Julia Serano's Whipping Girl. Because everything you are writing is short sighted and off base.

alan> I find them both faintly ridiculous and kind of sad to contemplate, though I don't let them know this

J7> Well that's big(oted) of you. I find the same about most men, and especially the bigots. I believe I have just as much right to exist as anybody else, even if I don't fit your gender norms, thank you very much.
I think that it's more of a mental sex v physical sex thing, than to do with socially constructed gender expression. My mind tells me I'm female, my body used to be male (helluva birth defect) but appropriate gender expression is obviously variant by culture. 50 years ago women did not wear jeans, now we do. Men used to wear silk stockings at one time. Neither activity had anything to do with trans.
Every society has trans people - some value them as people who can see gender from both sides, while others reject, belittle and attempt to deny them the right to exist.

*sigh*

Femily/MirandaJay: Perhaps, in future, you might want to actually read what transpeople have to say about our own lives before coming out with this (quite bizarre) nonsense about what we supposedly think.

I have no idea where this bizarre cissexual fantasy about how transpeople supposedly think "gee, I like really feminine things, therefore I must be a woman" came from, but it's pretty frustrating to see it continually hashed up again and again by people who apparently can't be bothered reading what we actually think.

For the umpteenth time, being transgendered has very little to do with whether one is masculine or feminine. There are transwomen running the entire gamut from super-femme to stone butch and everything in between; there are transmen running from really feminine through to macho man types and everything in between.

As a trans woman, I personally tend to be perceived as neither particularly feminine or masculine - I get taken as a femme in a queer context, but am generally seen by straight people as a bit of a tomboy. Most transpeople I know generally fit between the two extremes of gender expression, although I've known both transmen and transwomen at both ends, just as I've known cissexual men and cissexual women at both ends..

I just don't understand why this is so hard for some cissexual people to understand.

Ditto with what Rebecca said.

Also with regards to the use of transgendered male to describe a trans woman. Not cool and it is offensive to both the trans guys and trans women.

Obviously, I found Sherri's remarks to be really self-hating. Which brings me (hope this is not too off-topic) to ask anyone out there their opinion as to why some women are so misogynistic and sexist. I have my ideas but I would really be interested in hearing other opinions if you would like to share.

Obviously, I found Sherri's remarks to be really self-hating. Which brings me (hope this is not too off-topic) to ask anyone out there their opinion as to why some women are so misogynistic and sexist. I have my ideas but I would really be interested in hearing other opinions if you would like to share.

From what little I have seen of her, I believe her religious fundamentalism has reached the point of intolerance. She plainly sticks to her Bible as closely as she can, which is what leads to her "I don't know if the world is round" type statements. People like me who are not Biblical literalists, according to what christiananswers.net, are hopelessly liberal.

I was raised in a minor denomination (100,000 total) with links to the Southern Baptists. They would be the types to decry anything that challenged traditional family values, including of course homosexuality. Some like the pastor - while knowing it would be unpopular even among the congregation - sermonized against remarriage after divorce (divorce ok despite undoing "one flesh," but remarriage per Bible, for woman at least, was adultery).

They are also against evolution, practicing ID long before it ever became a household word - say 30 years ago, showing videos of dinosaurs coexisting with humans). They were also young earth creationists. The original Zondervan New Testament, which took some time to be accepted over the KJV, used to have an inside cover timeline with creation at 4004 BC. And about 30 years ago, they used to distribute Jack Chick tracts - the guy who believes the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, the Pope the Antichrist, Russia and China to be Gog and Magog, with Armageddon to be expected within one generation of Israel becoming a nation in 1948 (watch out!), etc. etc. Sherry would feel quite at home.

On the up side, they sing and play nice music, having a musical tradition. That pastor, 69 years old, plays a cool electric guitar.

Mind you, they are decent people. But eventually, they are going to talk to you about being saved, or wanting to pray. And they certainly would not agree with feminism or LGBTQQ.

I was surprised to hear that woman entertain the possibility of tolerating the a son being gay (not being sent to a camp a la South Park to be "cured"), or him somehow getting married and having sex in her house. There may be hope for her.

I am cisgendered myself, but I *think* I understand what's going on with transgendered people, so let me throw this out there and please, correct me if I'm wrong. This might help to explain it to other cisgendered people.

There are actually *four* aspects of sex/gender (at least), which are commonly confused with each other or conflated with each other. The first is brain sex. This is the sex your brain feels itself to be. (Or your "soul", or your "mind", if you prefer a less biologically based metaphor.) Then there's body sex, which is the sex your body manifests (and if you're intersex or have a condition like androgen insensitivity, it's even more complicated than that, but let's just say that we're talking about a person who has a single, congruent biological body sex.) Then there's gender role conformity drive. This is the need to conform to the established gender role for your brain sex, whatever that gender role may be. Thus, the need for some men to establish their "masculinity" by doing things coded by our society as male; the need for some women to do things coded by our society as female; and so forth. And finally, there is sexual orientation, which has to do with who you fall in love with and want to have sex with.

Your gender role conformity drive can be strong or weak, positive or negative. A weak gender role conformity drive produces a person, of either sex, who really doesn't give much of a damn about conforming to the gender role society has assigned them. A negative gender role conformity drive means a desire to conform to the rules for the opposite sex, but *does not* say that you actually "feel" yourself to be a member of the opposite sex. A man who has a strong desire to express his feminine side, and likes girly things, but sees himself as a man, would have a negative gender role conformity drive. (In the case of a woman, behaving like "a man" while identifying as a woman might mean a desire to get the goodies society reserves for men, or a negative gender role conformity drive.)

(BTW, I don't mean negative or weak as epithets; I mean negative in the sense of "opposite" and weak in the sense that you don't have much gender role conformity drive. If anyone can suggest less unpleasant-sounding terminology, please let me know.)

Some homosexual men -- men who feel love and sexual desire for other men -- have a negative gender role conformity drive. Some don't. But if a homosexual man dresses as a woman but still thinks of himself as a man, he is not transgendered.

Transgendered people are *just* like cisgendered people except that their brain and body sex are not congruent. Some transgendered people have a strong positive gender role conformity drive, which looks to the outside world, because their brain and body sex don't match, like a strong negative gender role conformity. Some have weak gender role conformity. Some have negative. Some are gay, some are straight. The point is that what makes them transmen or transwomen is that their deep sense of "I am a man" or "I am a woman" does not match their body sex.

If your brain and body sex are congruent, you may have a hard time figuring out what brain sex *is*, especially since what it *isn't* is gender role conformity drive. So I propose a thought experiment. You are, right now, yourself as a disembodied genderless being. You need to manifest as a man or a woman, in a post-feminist equalist utopia where the roles of men and women are *exactly* the same and you will experience no discrimination whichever you pick. As a man, you can experience pregnancy if you choose; as a woman, you can have a device or another person gestate your child if you wish; there is no difference between men and women, but you gotta pick one, and once you embody as a man or a woman you're stuck that way until you die. Which do you pick? (Be honest. Don't think "I'd pick the opposite sex because I'm really curious what it's like." You will have to stay that way your whole life.) Whichever you feel would better match who you feel you are, that's your brain sex. Most of us are lucky in that it matches our bodies. Transgendered people have a brain sex that doesn't match their bodies. That's all.

AlaraJRogers,
That would make an interesting graph.

*chuckles immaturely at the term "brain sex"*

In all seriousness, I think that is a very good explanation AlaraJRogers. I'm cisgendered and I wonder if there are any books/sources you could recommend about that theory? That's if I'm right in guessing you didn't just make it up here.

Whichever you feel would better match who you feel you are, that's your brain sex.

That is a really interesting thought-experiment Alara; thanks for posting it.

It's actually exactly where I always stumble in terms of trying to understand transsexuality. I identify myself as a woman, and I was born in a female body. I've always felt very much at home in my body (barring a few bouts of body image issues). I've never felt distinct from my embodied self in any looming way.

The problem is that this means it's difficult for me to imagine being other than at home in ANY body I was born into. My body feels like home because it's ME. If I had had been (or in this imaginary future world, chose to be) born/manifest in a body with different parts . . . would that not equally be me? Could I not learn how to be embodied in that way equally well? How would I know, physically, which body better matched who I was, if the only body I've ever known is my own?

I'm not saying sex or gender identity "doesn't matter" . . . just that I don't have enough distance from my own experience of it to imagine being other than who I am, physically.

I don't mean this to be questioning the validity of people who have the ability to articulate that sort of distance between themselves and their bodies. It's just a difficult thing for me to try to re-conceptualize my understanding of our physical selves as an aspect of personhood you could actually experience as wrong. Particularly when it's separated from all the assumptions of gender identity.

Shorter FEMily: "Can't you trans women [b/c it's always trans women who get criticized this way] understand that gender is socially constructed? I know better than you do! Innate, shminnate!!!"

Sorry, FEMily, I do enjoy reading your comments on this blog, but I've got to call you on this one.

I've noticed that, with rare exception, everyone who claims that intrinsic gender identity (what Alara named "brain sex" upthread) doesn't exist or is purely a social construct, is cisgender; in other words, trans folk hear this from people who have *no idea*, at a gut, personal experience level, what it's like to be trans. (And those rare exceptions are generally trans people with serious internalized transphobia / trans-misogyny issues).

I do agree that how we *express* our gender is largely culturally determined; we reference patriarchal norms regardless of whether we follow them, resist them, or just don't care --- but, gender expression is separate from intrinsic identity - a distinction that most cis people have trouble understanding, b/c it's not their lived experience.

"I do agree that how we *express* our gender is largely culturally determined; we reference patriarchal norms regardless of whether we follow them, resist them, or just don't care --- but, gender expression is separate from intrinsic identity - a distinction that most cis people have trouble understanding, b/c it's not their lived experience."

For example, whether a kid is female or not is intrinsic, but whether she grows up thinking it's more feminine to compete in a beauty pageant or judge one* is cultural, right?

* see http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/travel/destinations/africa/article453610.ece

Thanks for the positive comments, guys.

Webbess, I actually did make it up, on the basis of listening to trans people. The first trans person I ever met was a lesbian transwoman who still loved to work on cars. This made me realize that everything I had been taught up to that point about how transpeople "naturally" are oriented to the opposite sex to their brain sex, and "naturally" pursue the interests common to their brain sex rather than their body sex, were just wrong. Whatever it was about Judith that made her feel herself to be a woman, it wasn't her sexual orientation, because she liked women before and after she transitioned, and it wasn't her gender expression or her interests, because she was a huge Star Trek geek (except in the world of fanfic, this is coded male) and liked to get into the guts of cars and motorcycles. There was something else there, some little inner voice that had nothing to do with the jeans she liked to wear or the cars she liked to work on or the women she liked to date, that said "Despite all this, I am a woman."

Everything i've heard from transpeople since has backed this up.

So I went looking for that little voice in myself, and I found it. I'm a bisexual computer geek who loves science fiction. As a teenager, when the girls around me were all turning more womanly, I turned much more androgynous, actively rejecting femininity. I saw it as weakness (because it is culturally coded as such) and conformity (because it felt like others were trying to impose it on me.) I would have dressed in drag if a 5'0" woman with a soft round childish face and a high-pitched voice could possibly pull it off. And yet I have never questioned feeling like "a woman", even though I have rarely felt "womanly". I am female, though not feminine. So why? Just because I do happen to have a vagina? What if I suddenly got changed in a blast of magic, what then? I came to the conclusion that if I was turned into a man by magic powers, I would feel "wrong" to myself -- it wouldn't change my interests, in some ways I might fit in better, in other ways I'd still be a nonconformist, but in my *mind* I would be wrong. Because in my mind I'm a woman. I just *feel* that way.

It is possible that some of the supposedly cisgendered actually *don't* have a strong internal sense of brain sex, that they just kind of default to what they are biologically. It's also possible that that sense is harder to find as a cisgendered person when you don't spend your entire teen years reading books about androgynous or intersex characters or people who change gender, and so you just never think about the question "Am I male or female deep down inside? What if I changed sex, would I care?" Maybe I'm able to understand transpeople better because despite being cisgender I thought about androgyny and the boundaries of gender, a *lot*, as a kid. Or maybe i'm full of shit, because not being transgender myself I can't tell if my theory really does match how it seems to me they are describing their experiences. But being able to separate out the desire to conform to the gender role for your sex, or to specifically *not* conform, with your actual sense of what that sex is, I think that's helpful in a feminist analysis of gender even if you aren't using it specifically to understand transpeople.

Has anyone here read "As Nature Made Him" by John Colapinto? When I was in college, I read John Money's study of a little boy who, due to a horrific accident, lost his penis at 8 months, and was raised as a girl thereafter. Money came to the conclusion that the person was a perfectly normal, feminine girl. In grad school I found out that the person had instead discovered at the age of 13 that he was in fact male, and he promptly identified as a boy and claimed to experience profound relief. if your penis was cut off when you were 8 months old and you were surgically reconstructed into a girl, and then raised as a girl, how could you possibly "know" deep down inside that you are a boy unless there's something in the brain that says so? How could a little boy raised as a girl, who enjoyed playing with dolls and such, guess that he was "really" a boy without reference to his anatomy or his desired fun activities? He knew because there's something in us independent of anatomy, independent of what we like to dress in, independent of any kind of cultural pressure or socialization, that says "I am male" or "I am female." And that doesn't scare me as a feminist, because I know that sense *is* independent of what role you want to play. You can desire to have the pretty things women have and still "feel" male, you can desire to have the power men have and still "feel" female. There is nothing essentialistic about gender *roles*. The essential is what sex do you think you are. Everything on top of that, culture and your own tendencies put there.

BTW, that little boy committed suicide at the age of 24 or so, according to the book. Denying children the right to be their true gender, their brain sex, is *devastating*. My heart goes out to all the transpeople who suffered that denial as children. Forcing your child to deny their brain sex could, in fact, end up killing them. it did kill the little boy in John Money's experiment.

Alara.
You are pretty close. Honestly, as close as I can say anybody who is not trans explain it.

Also I think what you are calling "gender role conformity drive" most trans people (and some gay and lesbians too) call gender expression. Its not about conformity, because some gender expression is natural to a person and is related to on a deeper level as much as gender identity. Gender experession though is also socialized.

You seem to have a better idea then most, and in simple and relatively easy to understand terms you are pretty close.

With regards to this being something to deal with, its not. Being trans is probably one of the most complex situations one can face with tremendous cost that any who transition are well aware of. Its a struggle for anybody to deal with.

Second part of the post (since my computer acted up):

The one thing I would note is the fact it is a struggle to deal with, when one is removed from the situation and says they could deal with being in a body that does not conform to their gender identity. To live the reality is just a little harder then just theorizing about how you can handle it. Its a little bit different to learn to deal with when it is something so deeply felt that is continuous. One cannot live with ambiguity forever when ambiguity is not who they are.

John Money is a crackpot. I learned about that case in one of my WMST classes and watched a documentary on it. The man (David, I think was his name) did eventually commit suicide, and it was suspected that his brother did as well. Both had been traumatized by Money's failed gender experiment. There is actually a Law and Order: SVU episode based on this.

Alara, isn't it possible that this man killed himself at least in part because while he identified as a man, he had no penis or testicles? Having no sexual organis would be a bit depressing, I'd think.

Just a thought.

Alan

I just wanted to express my appreciation to everyone for their comments on this thread, particularly the trans commenters who were willing to share their perspectives.
I've never encountered a transperson outside the internet, but I'm hopeful that should I meet one in the future, I will be a little less likely to say something stupid or hurtful to them out of sheer ignorance. Thanks.

There is a really helpful and insightful new book that was recently released this past June.

It is called The Transgender Child: A Handbook for Families and Professionals by Stephanie Brill and Rachel Pepper

It has been called "a comprehensive, first-of-its-kind guidebook for the unique challenges that thousands of families face raising children who step outside of the pink or blue box".

Brill and Pepper describe the process that many families go through after learning that a child is transgender or gender variant and lay out strategies for parents to move from crisis to acceptance. This book covers developmental stages of the transgender child from birth to college, transition decisions, appropriate disclosure, and the educational, medical, and legal issues that parents and therapists need to know.

Here's what other people have to say about the book:

"The Transgender Child is a ground-breaking book. It is a sophisticated and sympathetic look at a world unknown to many of us. Families with transgender children often suffer because of society's prejudices. This book opens a door and shines a light on members of society who deserve the compassion and understanding of us all."
-Peggy O'Mara, Editor and Publisher of Mothering Magazine

"A 'must read' for the families I see. I will suggest that parents provide copies to their school nurses and administrators. I will also recommend it to my colleagues in pediatrics and adolescent medicine. As a pediatrician, I find no greater pleasure than helping children grow and develop into happy, healthy, well-adjusted adults. This resource will help me in that goal for gender-variant and transgender youth."
-Irene N. Sills, MD, Professor of Pediatrics, SUNY - Upstate Medical University, Joslin Center for Diabetes and Endocrinology

About the authors:
STEPHANIE BRILL is the founder of Gender Spectrum Education and Training, which provides education, resources and training to create a more gender-sensitive and supportive environment for all children. She founded and runs the Children's Hospital Oakland Support Group for parents of gender-variant and transgender children and teens. She also co-produces a national conference, Gender Spectrum Family (genderspectrumfamily.org), for families with gender-variant and transgender children. Brill wrote 'The Queer Parents Primer' (New Harbinger Press) and co-authored 'The New Essential Guide to Lesbian Conception, Pregnancy, and Birth' (Alyson).

RACHEL PEPPER is the Coordinator of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Studies at Yale University. An award-winning journalist and an editor at Curve Magazine, she is the author of 'The Ultimate Guide to Pregnancy for Lesbians' (Cleis Press) and co-author of 'The Gay and Lesbian Guide to College Life' (Princeton Review).

For more information about the book and/or authors, I suggest visiting: http://www.genderspectrum.org/book.htm