I really do think that a judge should lose their job after a comment like that.

Victim-blame-and-condeming just piss me off.

"You were dumb for getting into the car. What were you thinking? You partially deserved this ..." is essentially the message being sent here.

I am no Radical Feminist - but I see this as a way of merely pushing women back into the private spheres, because they can't make any decision in the public spheres without being blamed, even if THEY are the victims.

But then again, even in their private spheres, women get raped ...what's this judge going to say next? "What's wrong with you? Why did you marry a rapist? It's all your fault ..."

Sometimes, I think we third-wave feminists and activists are fighting a losing battle, with stories like these ...because the patriarchy is still very much a part of the justice system.

Maybe law schools need a couple of required courses in humanity. After all, this isn't coming long after a judge idiotically stated that a ten year old "probably agreed" to be gang-raped.

At least the rapist got jail time, though 3.5 years is ludicrous.

8%?

How do they measure the number of victims who come forward like that (in absence of those who are assaulted, but stay silent?)

That said...I can't believe that. I can't believe the capacity to help sexual assault victims is that f*cked up. It never ceases to amaze me that some countries that are supposedly more progressive are seemingly more permissive/F*CKED UP when it comes to a preventing and prosecuting violent crime/crimes against women.

Maybe Australia doesn't count, their rape rates are higher than America's, and I get the impression that their views on reproductive rights are just as messed up as ours are (if not more so?)

Ugh....man's world and a woman's hell.

"Maybe law schools need a couple of required courses in humanity."

Ouch, Ariane. We're not all that heartless. My fantastic friends volunteer lots of their time towards family law, addressing human trafficking, obtaining citizenship for illegal immigrants, working for NOW, helping Planned Parenthood, and working for the ACLU. To name a few off the top of my head.

This is depressing.

You all have trained me to think of cases like these in terms of their analogy to other violent crimes. I cannot imagine the victim in any other kind of case being demeaned like that — being accused of low intelligence — as if that were an excuse or explanation for the fact that they were victimized. By a criminal.

What saddens me is that I know many middle-class and upper middle-class women who claim to be feminists (or at least feminist sympathizers) who would call this woman "stupid" in a heartbeat. They would say "what possessed her to get in the car with a strange man?" or "why would you accept a ride to anywhere with him?" I don't know what this girl's particular story is, but there are other issues that come to mind with her story.

Not all women have access to safe and reliable transportation. If you've just gotten off a full shift at work, don't have a car, it's 30 degrees outside, and the bus station is a couple of miles away, then a ride is a welcomed offer. Sometimes desperate need overrides the warning bells in your head (and stomach) that tell you it might not be the best idea.

The judge is an asshole and should be reprimanded, if not fired. I just hope that others who might call her stupid will think twice about it.

UGH!

One very small silver lining:

This made the news. It is shocking to the general public enough to be a news story. That means more people think this behavior is unnacceptable.

If this were truly accepted by society it would not be reported anywhere that feministing could pick up and repost.

right??? right???

ProFeministMale - Calling her stupid is not the same thing as saying she deserved to be raped. Getting into a car with a stranger is stupid. Getting into a car with a stranger does not mean one deserves to be raped.

noname,
Why does the judge think it's stupid to get into a car with a stranger? Because the stranger might attack/rape you.

I see calling this victim stupid as blaming her for a stranger raping her. In calling her stupid the judge is saying "Didn't you know he would rape you?"

It really bothers me that so many people apparently have no problem with living in a world in which women should expect to be raped at any moment of their lives. If they do not fully expect to be raped at any point in their lives, they are stupid. And yet these folks are the same ones who claim that feminists are the ones who hate men.

secondhandsally - First, getting into a car with a stranger is stupid for many reasons, only one of which is the possibility of rape. It is stupid for men, and it is stupid for women.

You can "see calling this victim stupid as blaming her for a stranger raping her" all you want, but that doesn't make it true. The judge never said she deserved to be raped. He said she was stupid for getting into the car. I agree (even if I do not think a rape trial was the appropriate forum for this comment).

noname hit the nail on the head. i don't understand why it is so difficult for so many people to understand that stupidity/recklessness/bad judgment on the part of the victim in no way bear on the culpability of the assailant. i don't care if this girl is as dumb as a bag of rocks (or, more likely, just an 18-year-old who made a mistake)--no means no.

i always remind such people that if i leave the house without locking the door and someone comes in and steals my television, no one would dare tell me that the thief is somehow not guilty or shouldn't be punished for taking something they knew didn't belong to them. not to reduce rape to a property crime in any sense, but the reasoning still holds.

What is the point of calling her stupid, then, noname? She is not on trial. It's not the forum for the judge to be making judgements about her. The only reason he'd call her stupid would be to minimize what happened to her or make her feel ashamed.

Noname, I don't think there's ever an appropriate forum for telling a rape survivor that she is stupid for doing whatever it was that put her in the company of a rapist. Survivors blame themselves enough as it is.

We could debate the relative stupidity of getting into cars with strangers forever and pretend that it has anything to do with why women are raped. Hint though... it doesn't. So this focus on the woman's behavior accomplishes nothing, except possibly shaming new victims from coming forward because they don't want to be told that they were stupid too.

The focus in a criminal case against a rapist should be on the rapist. Period. Leave it to the woman to think back on the circumstances and assess her behavior for herself (unless you assume that women are too stupid to do that?). The victim didn't commit a crime and the judge has no business commenting on whether she is partially culpable in her own attack.

Of course the girl is stupid. She's 18. Eighteen year olds, by definition, are stupid. They don't yet have the experience to realize the unfortunate fact that you can't trust anyone, especially men.

When I was her age, I made stupid decisions like that. I let men manipulate me into accepting a ride from them or letting them up into my apartment. I was extremely lucky that they didn't rape me. Only luck kept me from learning the hard way never to trust anyone.

Now, as a cynical, pissed-off adult, I resent that I can no longer trust anyone. And, to be completely frank, I blame men for it.

noname,
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I don't like to express my opinions as statement of fact, hence the "see" which you so kindly used.

What I was trying to say was: The judge is calling her stupid for not realize that a stranger might rape her if she got into his car. Or in other words "If you hadn't gotten into the car with a stranger, you stupid woman, you wouldn't have been raped."
And as sgzax said above me; this focus on the woman's behavior is inappropriate.

Kesh, let's blame stupid, assholish, misogynistic men, instead, huh?

To blame men for everything, I think, is one of the reasons the stupid and idiotic "MRAs" exist. By doing so, we're only giving anti-feminists ammunition to take a stand against us.

NoName - why the hell would the judge even call her stupid? Is it really important that we chastise a victim? Regardless of whether a woman is smart or stupid, she shouldn't get raped just because she got into the car with someone.

People should be able to do whatever they want without being raped.

I also have a problem with classifying women or rape victims into categories like that ...rape is rape, I don't give a shit her age, experience, color or anything else. Don't make an excuse for rapists or misogynistic judges.

I've made a lot of stupid decisions to take rides from strange men. I once got a great interview from a police detective for an undergrad paper because I let him drive me to the train station alone. I once got a cheap trip home from college because I rode for hours with an administrator I knew, but not that well. I've formed friendships, working relationships and professional ties in cars alone with men I did not know well.

Of course, all my friends tell me how stupid I am: I am taking the risk that one day, one of these men is going to take me to a secluded place and forcibly penetrate me, and it will be my fault.

Except not. Nobody ever says that to me. Nobody thinks I'm stupid to do the things that men take for granted, like riding in cars with strangers who appear normal.

Every time we say to a woman that she is "stupid" for doing something men do all the time, we are saying she is stupid to deny male privilege, to try to live as a person and not a woman.

To try to live as a person. Not as a woman.

Every time someone victim-blames, he supports a separate set of rules for women; he acknowledges that set of rules and chastises rather then cheers women who refuse to be a party to it.

Every time.

Thomas, that was a great post. I also want to add for those of you like noname, victim blaming exists to keep women "in their place." People regularly blame the victim if she had the audacity to go out at night, have a drink, be freinds/partners with a rapist, wear whatever clothing. It is all part of the same system to keep women ashamed, subservient, quiet, and disempowered.

I always assumed that women get raped because some men are rapists, but if we're having a referendum on women's stupidity and resultant culpability in getting raped, maybe we could clarify relative stupidity in the following cases...

Is a woman stupid if...

1. She accepts a ride from a stranger?
2. She accepts a ride from an acquaintance?
3. She goes to a party?
4. She drinks at a party?
5. She allows someone else to give her a drink at a party?
6. She leaves a drink unattended at a party?
7. She wears a halter top?
8. She wears a short skirt and high heels?
9. She goes out alone at night?
10. She shops alone in a strange neighborhood?
11. She walks alone down a quiet street?

Is a woman stupid just for having a vagina in public? Is that it? Is there any way to be smart enough to ensure that you will never be raped? No?

Then lay off with the stupid talk. Thanks.

ProFeministMale, I understand your concern about generalizing, but men don't come with signs saying "I'm a stupid/assholish/misogynist man." If we trust all men out of the gate, when something goes wrong, we're told we should have known better and not trusted strangers. Best to be wary.

thomas, i completely agree with you, but for the record, if you were my friend and in the habit of accepting rides from total strangers, i'd think you were stupid for doing that, too.

clearly the judge accomplished nothing by saying this to the victim and i totally concur with all the statements re: victim-blaming and establishing a separate set of rules for women.

Sgzax, dude, you fucking rock for that post.

Noname, I'm going to have to agree with you. There are many reasons why a man or a woman would be excersicing poor judgement to get into a car with a complete stranger, one of many being the possibility of rape (I'd be thinking more along the lines of, "What if this sick fuck wants to kill me?", but I digress.)However, the judge's job is to deliver a verdict for the guilty criminal, not pass judgement on the victim of said criminal.

Sgzax, you do rock.

And let me add this: if the woman is at a party and having a drink or two, isn't she supposed get a lift home from someone else? Or call a taxi? But if she gets in a taxi, she's in a car with, most likely, a strange man. So is she supposed to drive home herself when she's drunk? Or walk home at night when she's drunk? How, exactly, does a woman socialize without being stupid, unless she's a teetotaler?

Clearly the only "correct" solution to that is for the woman to never socialize, EG. She should be safely married, obviously. [/sarcasm]

YogiDanielle - I agree. The judge did not need to tell the woman she was stupid. Doing so, however, does not consititute blame for the woman.

Getting in the car with a stranger (and a licensed cab driver is an obvious exception to this, EG) is stupid. Even if she got home fine, it would be stupid. And yes, it is stupid when Thomas does it as well (although people that you don't know well are not strangers, people you don't know at all are).

(and a licensed cab driver is an obvious exception to this, EG)

why?? licensed cab drivers don't rape?? THAT is a stupid assumption.

it's been proven, that for women, getting into a car with a man you KNOW is far more dangerous than with someone you don't. most women are raped in their home, and not by strangers! are we all just stupid for trusting men we love? (fathers, boyfrieds, husbands, friends, brothers)

I actually used that example because for a while there were in my local news stories about women being raped by taxi drivers.

Why is a cab driver different? You don't think cab drivers could rape/hurt/rob you?

What ISN'T stupid? Instead of getting in a car with a stranger, what should she have done, noname?

Getting in the car with a stranger (and a licensed cab driver is an obvious exception to this, EG) is stupid.

It probably was a stupid decision, or prehaps naive would be more accurate. Learning that every man who's friendly to you may want to rape you is a hard thing to interternalise.

BUT in the context of a fucking judge saying it, it is passing judgement; it is victim-blaming. You can choose not to see that, but it is, and it's disgusting. Like she doesn't fucking know it was stupid you arrogant man (that's you, not the judge)

EG - I never said cab drivers can't rape. I said using a licensed cab as transportation is not stupid. Why? Because it is a safer way than most to get where you are going. Jumping in a strangers car, on the other hand, is one of the least safe ways to get where you are going.

Nothing is 100% safe, but I consider it stupid when someone picks seamingly the least safe way of doing something. There is reasonable risk, and there is reckless behavior. I think getting in a stranger's car is reckless, and therefore a stupid choice.

noname,
What is the point in continuing to focus on the woman's behavior?
Even if it was stupid for her to get in the car with a stranger, shouldn't we be focusing on him for raping her?

"BUT in the context of a fucking judge saying it, it is passing judgement; it is victim-blaming. You can choose not to see that, but it is, and it's disgusting." - Fenriswolf

It is passing judgment on her decision to get into the car. He never, however, blames her for the rape. If you disagree, show me the quote that supports your position.

"Like she doesn't fucking know it was stupid you arrogant man (that's you, not the judge)" - Fenriswolf

So, you admit it was a stupid choice as well? Don't worry; I can see the difference between that and victim-blaming.

BTW, personal insults have no place in civilized discourse. Maybe you need to calm down and take a time out, or something.

secondhandsally - I am responding to the post. It is about the judges comment, which is in turn about the woman's behavior. I didn't pick the topic.

Noname,
I think this is the heart of our disagreement then because
I think that the post is about the judge commenting on the women's behavior when he should have been focusing on the rapist behavior.

secondhandsally - I already wrote that I thought it was inappropriate earlier in the thread. Here is my quote: "I do not think a rape trial was the appropriate forum for this comment". I simply do not see evidence of victim blaming in the judge's remark, and fear that some here are putting words into his mouth.

Jimminy Cricket, people! You know wht's really stupid? Raping people.

Thomas:
...I've formed friendships, working relationships and professional ties...all my friends tell me how stupid I am...it will be my fault. Except not...Nobody thinks I'm stupid to do the things that men take for granted...

Thank you so much for that. I had forgotten how victim-blaming limits people's lives. Not a good thing to start getting used to.

I'll take this one!

Is a woman stupid if...

1. She accepts a ride from a stranger?

Yes.

2. She accepts a ride from an acquaintance?

Depends on the acquantance.

3. She goes to a party?

No.

4. She drinks at a party?

Nope.

5. She allows someone else to give her a drink at a party?

Depends on the someone else.

6. She leaves a drink unattended at a party?

Depends on the party.

7. She wears a halter top?

Nope.

8. She wears a short skirt and high heels?

Well, yes, because it's bad for her feet, but not for the reasons you are implying.

9. She goes out alone at night?

Depends on the neighborhood.

10. She shops alone in a strange neighborhood?

Depends on the neighborhood.

11. She walks alone down a quiet street?

Which street?

OMGWTF I must me so anti-woman, right? But wait, there's more!

Is a man stupid if...

1. He accepts a ride from a stranger?

Yes. People get rolled, killed, beated, etc all the time. This is stupid, male or female.

2. He accepts a ride from an acquaintance?

Again, it depends on the acquaintance, for the aforementioned reasons.

3. He goes to a party?

No.

4. He drinks at a party?

Nope.

5. He allows someone else to give him a drink at a party?

Depends on the someone else. Between getting drugged, robbed, "fouled", or taken advantage of... it is often a bad idea.

6. He leaves a drink unattended at a party?

Depends on the party, see above.

7. He wears a halter top?

Yes. He is inviting abuse, be it physical or verbal. This does not, however, make the abuse his fault, it merely means that his actions were contributory.

8. He wears a short skirt and high heels?

Yes. See above (plus, you know, the bad for your feet thing)

9. He goes out alone at night?

Depends on the neighborhood. Contrary to popular opinion, guys don't wander down the street in dicey neighborhoods with a wink and a nod to the local hoodlums and rapists as they carry on. No, we have to be careful not to be robbed, beaten, or otherwise accosted. And, frankly, rape is on the menu too... it's just less likely and less reported.

10. He shops alone in a strange neighborhood?

Depends on the neighborhood. See above.

11. He walks alone down a quiet street?

Which street? My street is quiet, but I don't walk alone down it if I can avoid it.. not at night.

You see, some things are just flat out stupid to do, regardless of gender. Saying something a victim did is stupid is NOT the same as saying that the victim is to blame.

Was the timing of pointing out this person's stupidity poor? Absolutely. Is it blaming? Absolutely not. To say it is displays a complete detachment from reality.

Question: If the case had involved an 18-year-old guy who had gotten into a strange man's car and subsequently was assaulted, do you think the judge would have said the same thing? I think maybe yes, just because of his age, but I'm really not sure.
Obviously the situations aren't equivalent since shaming of rape victims is so common. Maybe the judge was saying "you stupid kid" instead of "you stupid woman" and everyone (i mean everyone watching the verdict, not everyone here) heard "you stupid woman" because that's the knee-jerk response to a rape victim. It's scary that this message is so ingrained in our culture
that it can be perpetuated even unintentionally. IF it was unintentional, which I'm not claiming.

Coming out of lurk mode for a moment to note why I stay in lurk mode usually. It's because it seems that most threads of this sort start out as a conversation, and ends with a lot of arguing. And in most cases, I just end up confused because it always seems people are arguing the same thing! It looks to me like most people here agree, and now its just come down to semantics, or something that someone thought was said the wrong way, etc. I think we mostly agree that:

1). Victim blaming is unacceptable.
2). The rapist should be the focus here.
3). Women should not have to live in fear that just living their lives will get them raped.

My personal opinion:

As for the judge, he is entitled to his opinions, but either should have kept them to himself, or found a less offensive way to express them. Personally, I lean towards the "not the time or place" opinion, especially since it does make him sound (whether or intentionally or not) like he was blaming the victim.

Regardless about how we feel about the girl's actions, it's really not the focus. We don't know the situation that she was in. We all were very capable of making less-then-fantastic decisions at 18, especially if, like me, you were kinda sheltered. Also, I've been in situations where I was broken down with a dead cell, and accepting a ride was the less dangerous option (and a decision I did not make lightly). I *do* think that, with things being the way they are in the world, the action is potentially foolish. However, calling this girl stupid is presumptuous without knowing the situation at hand. We can separate the action as being not a good idea, without shaming the girl.

Side note/off-topic:
I understand why the subject matter in threads here make people so angry (myself included), but don't understand why some people get so angry at each other (trolls excluded of course - they're fair game, heh). It's one of the reasons I mostly lurk, and it is really discouraging sometimes to come here to educate myself, and there are people just going at each other. It makes me afraid to post most of the time, thinking one little word out of place will get me skinned alive.

Okay, I'm done. I'm not trying to hijack,I promise, this is just something that has bothered me for awhile here and it seemed like as good of place as any to mention it. Sorry if it doesn't make any sense (had some teeth removed today and am hopped up on vicadin. wee.) =)

Well said.

"I'm not victim-blaming but it's a bad idea to get in a car with a stranger." Lolz. Reads like "I'm not a racist but..." I suppose "don't talk to strangers" is next.

People have to make decisions based on incomplete information all the time. Sometimes it turns out to be the wrong decision, like crossing the street at the wrong time, leaving for work at 8:30 instead of 8:25, and yes, even whether to get into a car with a guy from a party or taking a cab.

You can't keep yourself on lockdown like they do to their women in Saudi Arabia and expect to live a fulfilling life. Ultimately, you have to take calculated risks for everything, and you should expect to be able to do it without condemnation from a judge or random people on the internet.

Kesh: Misandrist. The movement could do with fewer "feminists" like you.

3. She goes to a party?

No.

4. She drinks at a party?

Nope.

5. She allows someone else to give her a drink at a party?

Depends on the someone else.

6. She leaves a drink unattended at a party?

Depends on the party.

jer, it seems you are not comepletely aware of what people say about women/men who do those things.

First, why do you keep repeating "depends on the person/party"? Are you not aware that the majority of rape victims are raped by people they know and trust?

So, if it "depends", when exactly IS it stupid? When she doesn't know the person? Because statistics show that she's more likely to be attacked by a friend, not a stranger.

Besides, your responses don't really represent what many people think. If I went to a party with close friends, got drunk, continuously left my drink sitting on tables, passed out, etc., people probably wouldn't say that I'm stupid for doing so. And that makes sense, right? I mean, these are my friends. I should be able to do this without worrying that my friends might attack me.

However, if I went to a party with close friends, got drunk and passed out, and THEN was raped, many people would be saying that I was stupid for doing all of that. Many people would probably be saying that I was asking for it and that I should have known better. All of a sudden, my actions are "stupid". Basically, they would believe that my actions were partially responsible for my attack.

It's kind of like when you say a man wearing a halter top is "inviting" an attack. Maybe it just wasn't the best choice of words on your part, but to "invite" is basically the same as "asking for it." Saying that a rape victim asked for it is obvious victim-blaming, isn't it? Shouldn't it be as obvious when you say that the attacker was "invited" to attack the victim?

Also, if the woman in the article didn't have money, then her options were limited. If she didn't ask someone for a ride, she probably would have resorted to walking home. AND if she were raped while walking home, you know there would be a shitload of people commenting on how "stupid" that decision was.

"First, why do you keep repeating "depends on the person/party"? Are you not aware that the majority of rape victims are raped by people they know and trust?"

Umm, read the questions. The question isn't "is this likely to get a woman raped" but "is this action stupid". You only confuse the two because you insist on calling the latter "victim blaming" when it is really "calling stupidity by its name"

Here's a clue, jer_. If you're making normative claims on the behavior of the victim, you're victim blaming.

Bonus clue: implicit judgments ("that's stupid") count as normative claims.

Well, for anyone who missed the point, my list of questions wasn't actually an invitation to pass judgment on when women are being stupid, though I should have assumed that some guy would come along and give it a go. It was actually meant to point out the ambiguity of many situations that can result in rape and for which women have subsequently been accused of stupidity (and by extension, complicity in their own rape).

The interesting part to me, is that for the most part the behavior isn't stupid until the woman has been raped. And then people feel that the stupidity is all too apparent in hindsight. You could almost say that people look for reasons to blame women for these attacks!

I'm cynical. I know.

I think it is important to remember that life is a series of calculated risks. Like whether to accept a lift or walk home in the dark. Sometimes they work out... sometimes not. Either way, the person involved did their best and basic politeness should prevent people from second-guessing a traumatised victim.

How on earth does a man wearing high heels invite an attack?? That's just as disgusting as saying that a woman in high heels invites an attack. Misogyny and Homophobia are two sides of the same coing, my friend. Both are ugly. Both are the cause of such attacks. Neither is an excuse.

Casey,

re: "it's been proven, that for women, getting into a car with a man you KNOW is far more dangerous than with someone you don't."

I hope you don't really believe this. It's a distortion of the statistics.

Women are more frequently attacked by acquaintances because they're more frequently with an acquaintance when they're in an environment that makes them vulnerable, e.g. alone, isolated.

Oh, and back to the main point. The judge is an ass.

wonderbunny, sgzax, bravo. I couldn't have said it better, so I won't try.

"Question: If the case had involved an 18-year-old guy who had gotten into a strange man's car and subsequently was assaulted, do you think the judge would have said the same thing? I think maybe yes, just because of his age, but I'm really not sure."

So interesting.

Let me tell you something else about myself, and I am not shitting you. If you are easily disturbed, please do not read on.

I was sexually assaulted at the age of 19, after being lured into the car of a male stranger one afternoon. He claimed to need help finding a certain public school basketball court in Honolulu, and I got in because he could not understand my directions. He even helped me put my mountain bike into the back of his car so I could go with him. How courteous of him.

When he drove past the school/basketball court I thought he was referring to, I did not suspect a thing, because by that time, he had gotten my full name out of me, given me his own (fake, I learned), and we were talking about how he had supposedly lived in my community some time before, and he claimed to know about my father after my giving his name.

We finally came to a stop miles away in a remote area off Waikiki, at another school parking lot. There were a few other cars in the parking lot. It was a Sunday, and I suppose some staff were working in the building nearby. I did not suspect a thing, despite him having found his way so easily to this school so far away that I knew nothing about.

. . . It was then that he suddenly started to fondle and undress me. All I could do was watch in silence. As he continued, I turned to look out the window at the other cars and the building so close by. I thought I could shout for help, but I did not. At the time, I carried a small knife in my bag for self protection. The man was so distracted, that I thought to myself that I could take the knife out of the bag at my side, kill this fag*, and simply go on my way, without anyone ever knowing.

I couldn't do it. And so it continued. And when he was done, he got off me and reached behind the passenger seat for a small green towel to clean me and the car seat off. It was at that point that I finally began to think that this was no accident, because he seemed prepared.

I was still speechless. The man drove me back to my university and unloaded my bicycle from the back of this car. He told me, "Let's ride our bikes together some time," and drove down a highway onramp as I numbly watched.

Back in my dorm, I greeted my roommate who sat at his desk with his back to the door, and I immediately left for the shower, where I leaned the entire front of my body into the corner with the water running, and my body shook as I let silent tears run down my face. I felt so unclean. This man had turned me into one of them. Was I a "fag?" [Or so I felt for a number of years until I finally realized women my age found me attractive.]

And how could I have been so stupid**? How could I not see what was happening to me? The man was small in stature, about my size, why couldn't I have stopped him at any time? Why didn't I fight back? Why didn't I just kill him with my knife and leave his body in the car - that could have been fun? Did it mean I enjoyed it?

The man had given me a name. I could have gone forward. But letting my judo black belt, regionals level high school wrestler college roommate/best friend, who could easily help me stomp this "fag," know was out of the question. Going to the police was out of the question. Asking anyone for any kind of help was out of the question. I was afraid. "Why didn't you stop him? Did you like it? What are you, a fag?" And so I kept it all inside.

Until that day, I wore shorts and beach slippers in public and for going to college, only saving jeans and shoes for "special" occasions. I liked shorts. They felt cool. They were easy to move around in. I liked the way my tanned and slender legs looked: Even a high school classmate - a Junior Miss winner, head cheerleader, about the most popular girl in high school and my friend - told me she wished she had my legs. I didn't even have hair growing on my legs (or arms) until a while later. But after I was attacked, I immediately stopped wearing short pants because I thought the "fag" had noticed me for my legs while riding my bicycle with my short swim shorts on. They were from my high school days, and it was kind of tight and short, but they were a nice black and grey, so I had never thrown them away.

I was so ashamed to show my legs (I later thought that my legs were white and skinny which looked even odder after I got hair on them) that I never wore shorts in public again until just two years ago because I am back in Hawaii and I go to the beach again. I realized that no one cared about my legs now.

* I am sorry for using the word "fag," but that is the way I thought 20 years ago. This man was the first alleged homosexual that I had ever knowingly met. This incident led me to hate all gay men (but not lesbians - they were hot - I really used to think that way) in a religious way. Hated them. They were going to hell. Wished they were wiped off the earth to keep the rest of us safe. Reading Jack Chick and my King James Bible helped me feel this way.

However, I quickly stopped hating homosexuals when I received a phone call from my mother one day telling me that a certain male relative had attempted suicide that morning, after his straight roommate, his best friend, rejected his advances. I really liked this man, he was my favorite [relative]. I felt sorry he felt the need to end his life (he ended up not jumping) "just" because of this falling out with his best friend (that friend had immediately run off and never came back). This [relative] was always friendly and cheerful, very generous with gifts, and living a fairly glamorous life, though he did not "look" or "act" gay. I just thought he was too busy to ever get married. Ha ha. Turns out the rest of his family except for his mother (and I), had known all along since he was in college with his little man friends.

I could not reconcile the thought that this relative was one of those "fags," so I somehow simply stopped hating them. This did not mean my homophobia had subsided. This took at least a couple more years. But I did not hate them any more, just because I could not hate my [relative].

**I will call myself stupid. You will not call me stupid, because I didn't even notice what was happening. There were no alarm bells. I was young and ignorant. I was a guy. I was an adult, not someone a pedophile would attack. Why should I ever have imagined that another man, so small and mild mannered in appearance, would sexually assault me? It took years for the guilt to go away. Now I can openly be friends with gays and lesbians. They're cool. They tell funny stories. There's only one stereotypical one that I've ever met. This "girl" obviously didn't know what she was getting into, either. And that judge is an asshole.

All that was almost exactly 20 years ago. I always thought I was over it. Except . . .

About a week ago while I was riding my motorcycle in the middle of the night, a habit of mine, the engine suddenly died and left me stranded on the side of the highway about seven miles from home. My cellphone was at home. There were few cars going back and forth on the highway. I decided to leave my vintage motorcycle (please be safe) under a tree and walk, it was good exercise. It was a beautiful clear night, with a sky full of stars.

After about half a mile of walking in my heavy boots, carrying my helmet, gloves and motorcycle armor leather jacket uphill in the dark with cars whizzing by within arm's reach of me (there was no shoulder on the road), I decided, "Screw it, I'll hitch a ride."

. . . Except I couldn't bring myself to actually stop, turn around and put out my thumb. As a matter of fact, I had not looked up at the cars passing by at all. I didn't want them to see my face.

So I kept on walking, and soon came upon a large truck with its motor running parked on the other side of the highway with a large man pacing back and forth. It was a DOT road sweeper which had stopped in the middle of nowhere for some reason.

I crossed over to where it was and warily approached. The man who had been walking back and forth had boarded the truck on the passenger side. With all the exterior lights on, I was unable to determine whether or not anyone was seated on the driver's side.

I walked up the right side of the truck, and looked up at the passenger, seated about two feet higher than my head. I asked if he had a cellphone, and asked to borrow it.

I used the cellphone to call home and wake up my wife to ask if she could come get me. I returned the cellphone to the passenger of the truck and they drove away, talking about me. My wife picked me up about 30 minutes later after she found me.

I did not realize until I came upon this thread right now. I do not suffer from flashbacks, but why was I unable to hitch a ride 20 years later, three inches taller, and 50 pounds heavier, normally so confident I can take a man about my size? Why have I never again gotten into a stranger's car after that first time? Why was I so uneasy about approaching a clearly marked government vehicle with maybe two men in it?

I'll need to think about this. That fucking judge.

Oh, it's incredibly stupid to get into a car with someone you don't know, especially when you're 18 and should know better. But that's not the point.

But that should NEVER be an excuse for some sicko's actions.

Being raped in a graveyard? That takes creepy to a whole new level.

My heart goes out to the victim and her family.

In the states, they teach things like "don't get in a car with strangers" from a young age. Maybe that is something they need to emphasize in Canada.

I just want to thank you for sharing your story, a male. And to answer a question you asked in another thread: "instruct" has a whole lot of baggage attached, but a word like "coaching" implies a less autocratic exchange. Maybe you could try out "coaching," both in your written words and in your thoughts.

ModernFemme - No one here has tried to excuse "some sicko's actions".

"Here's a clue, jer_. If you're making normative claims on the behavior of the victim, you're victim blaming." - MrMorden

Not necessarily. If your claims are about the actual victimization (it was stupid of her to be raped), then I agree. That is obviously victim blaming. If your claims are about a separate action (it was stupid of her to get in a car with a stranger), then I do not agree. This is just common sense.

Note: Reading back through the thread, I realize that I need to be more careful to label the action stupid, not the woman. Plenty of smart people do stupid things from time to time.

Ya know, I was going to let this thread devolve into stupity, because I'm tired of fighting the same old rape myths. But after reading the wonderful post about this over at Shakespeare's Sister, I've found the strength to repeat myself.

Let's be clear - this judge is VICTIM-BLAMING. There is no difference in this case between "you shouldn't have gotten into that car" and "you shouldn't have gotten yourself raped." Period. If you can't follow the logic, ask yourself: what exactly prompted the judge to tell a rape victim not to get into a car, except to tell this woman how NOT to get raped?

We live in a world that tells women the lie that if they just didn't do X, they wouldn't be raped. Newsflash: any one of us can be raped at any time. Women are raped at night, in the day, by strangers, by friends. Women are raped at work, at the store, in the dentist's chair, on the playground, in church, in their own beds by their husband of 30 years.

If you're focusing on the woman's behavior here, it's probably because you'd like to be able to control whether you or someone you love gets raped. And to repeat: you can't.

A Male, thank you for sharing your story. I'm so sorry that happened to you; it can be very difficult to talk about rape, and it's brave of you to do so.

A male: Thank you for sharing your story.

noname: If genuinely not clear to you (ie, you're not trolling) then you need to spend some time reflecting on the nature of victim blame, because you just don't get it.

There is no difference in this case between "you shouldn't have gotten into that car" and "you shouldn't have gotten yourself raped." - AnnaB

Except that they are different comments with different meanings referring to different events. Other than that, though...

MrMorden - Maybe you are right. Can you give me the definitive definition of victim blaming?

And noname plays Socrates for the win! Or not. Educate yourself.

Here's a link to Melissa McEwan's post on Shakespeare's Sister:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/

Highlights:

Left to my own devices, I never would have been raped. The rapist was really the key component to the whole thing. I was sober; hardly scantily clad (another phrase appearing once in the article), I was wearing sweatpants and an oversized t-shirt; I was at home; my sexual history was, literally, nonexistent—I was a virgin; I struggled; I said no. There have been times since when I have been walking home, alone, after a few drinks, wearing something that might have shown a bit of leg or cleavage, and I wasn't raped. The difference was not in what I was doing. The difference was the presence of a rapist.

Consider for a moment, how stupid victim-blaming really is, when rapists are, if nothing else, opportunists who exploit the goodness of people's natures and prey on weaknesses.

That's the thing about rapists, you see. They rape people. They rape people who are strong and people who are weak, people who are smart and people who are dumb, people who fight back and people who submit just to get it over with, people who are sluts and people who are prudes, people who rich and people who are poor, people who are tall and people who are short, people who are fat and people who are thin, people who are blind and people who are sighted, people who are deaf and people who can hear, people of every race and shape and size and ability and circumstance. The only thing that the victim of every rapist shares in common is bad fucking luck.

Quite literally, the only thing a person can do to avoid being raped is never be in the same room as a rapist. Since they don't announce themselves or wear signs or glow purple, that's not a very reasonable expectation, is it?

Enough victim blaming. Enough.

More of my html challenges... All of the above is quoted from the blog. Sorry that's unclear.

Victim blame n. - Making a normative judgment on a victim or victim's behavior, esp. in reference as to how they could have avoided victimization

What do I win, Socrates?

Except that they are different comments with different meanings referring to different events. Other than that, though... - noname

Right - the judge was telling her she was stupid to get into that car because the judge was worried the guy might be a bad driver. Or wasn't good with directions. Or was unlicensed. Or didn't do regular car maintenence. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's why the judge lectured a shell-shocked woman right from the bench.

MrMorden - So as soon as one is victimized, they are beyond reproach?

"Educate yourself" - sgzax

I believe we are here to talk this out with others who care about these issues, sgzax. MrMorden told me I didn't get it. I thought it might be helpful to make sure we were talking about the same thing before we continued. It turns out we are not. I think that victim blaming only takes place when the victim is blamed for the action taken against them (in this case, the rape). As far as I can tell, MrMorden seems to think that it is when they are criticized for anything. I do not agree with his definition, but I can now understand why he thinks this is victim blaming (by his definition, it is).

“Right - the judge was telling her she was stupid to get into that car because the judge was worried the guy might be a bad driver.� – AnnaB

It is stupid to take rides from strangers because one has no way of evaluating if they are dangerous (for example, if they are rapists). Admitting this does not mean that the victim is to blame for an attacker’s actions.

What is the problem here? I agree that a victim’s actions, no matter how ill-advised, do not shift the blame for rape away from the attacker. I agree that a rapist is 100% responsible for his actions. I agree that in this particular case as well, the victim’s behavior should in no way be seen as making her culpable in the rape. I agree that the trial was an inappropriate forum in which to lecture the victim for her behavior. Seriously, what is the problem with what I have said?

noname: At this point, I'm going to say that no one can explain it to you. You're going to have to figure this one out for yourself.

Given the societal trend toward focusing on the behavior of the victim in the aftermath of rape, what you are now experiencing is a group of people who have collectively decided that the victim is not the subject. The victim should not be the subject. The victim will not be the subject. At all. Her behavior, her judgment, her dress, her gender, her lifestyle... none of that is on the table for discussion. At all.

When the subject is rape, the rapist is the subject and only the rapist's behavior is on the table. Until society as a whole recognizes that the problem with rape lies entirely with the rapists and not with the people unlucky enough to encounter them, you will find increasing resistance on the part of people to discus the victims of rape and what they might have done to avoid their fate.

I'm going to quote Melissa again:
Left to my own devices, I never would have been raped. The rapist was really the key component to the whole thing.

And since the rapist is the key component, until you're willing to point your laser focus on his stupidity and sociopathy you'll meet with exactly this much resistance. Women are sick of being blamed for rape. We know when it's happening (even when the people doing it deny it up, down, and sideways) and we call bullshit once and for all.

"Oh, it's incredibly stupid to get into a car with someone you don't know, especially when you're 18 and should know better. But that's not the point."

I've been thinking about it all night, and am unsure whether I was 19 or 18, because I cannot peg the year.

I know this is not directed at me, and I feel much better now. However, I grew up in a small island community where basically everyone had some sort of connection with everyone else, even if we did not know each other personally. The atmosphere is different now with tens of thousands of people coming in from outside, but it is still common to see adult men and teenage boys, or hitchhiker couples with their thumbs in the air on the side of the road (no women only).

Sure we heard the messages not to hitchhike or get into cars with strangers at home, or during formal little programs at school. Sure there used to be safety PSAs on TV when I was a child. But that sort of thing did not happen in our little island community (20/30 years ago), so why worry about it? Little shirtless elementary school boys even (ok, still not only girls), with swim shorts, slippers and a bodyboard under their arm, would just get into the back of a pickup (also illegal) or back seat of a car with strangers, on their way to the beaches. In local slang when I was a child, we called sitting in the back of a car, "Taxi." That was how you rode with strangers. If it was family or friends, naturally you seat yourself starting from the front.

Back to the point. Despite all the messages, and my supposedly very high IQ as a child, the message had not internalized itself. My hometown was a close knit community. I knew no outed alleged homosexuals at that time, and never any known pedophiles or rapists.

As a guy, at least, **I never thought it could happen to me**. And I still do not believe a woman would physically attack me either.

"I just want to thank you for sharing your story, a male"

Well thank you for following along. I wasn't fishing. This is the first time I've told the story in that much detail, and I have told exactly three people in real life - a later college roommate with his own sexual identity issues, molested by his previous roommate (male), sick bastard used to watch over and videotape him in his sleep and masturbate over him, my wife with her own decades long history, and my psychiatrist - no one in a quarter as much detail.

My doctor this year looked at me wide eyed and slackjawed unable to speak when I vaguely told him I had been sexually assaulted at 18(?), out of the blue. His face was SO funny.

Call me Eric.

"Plenty of smart people do stupid things from time to time."

Then it's not really relevant, unless one fails to learn despite one's repeated experiences, like Bush. I thought he graduated from Harvard and Yale, and was president of maybe two companies. What is his problem?

"Quite literally, the only thing a person can do to avoid being raped is never be in the same room as a rapist."

Mmmm. I'll still pass on all I can to my wife and kids though. And if it's acquaintance rape, they'd better be *real* tight with me if they don't want me to personally go 'cap them or set their houses on fire.

"It is stupid to take rides from strangers because one has no way of evaluating if they are dangerous (for example, if they are rapists). "

Seriously everybody: Here is one way to know "beyond a reasonable doubt" if someone is a rapist: check the local sex offender registries online. I did. Know what I found? Three of them live in my neighborhood (with maps, addresses, and photos)! How do you like that? I never knew. I won't go to their houses with a baseball bat, but I don't let my kids play out of sight! And the nature of the charges suggest they had sex with a minor, probably a daughter or niece.

Who can people ride with, exactly? Not even relatives or taxi drivers, as we have noted, can be safe.

*sigh*
"She is stupid and deserved to be raped"

That's victim blaming.

"She asked for it"

That's victim blaming.

"She was stupid for not mitigating her risks"

That is not victim blaming, that is pointing out the truth.

Should the judge have done so? No, it was impolite and unkind. But it wasn't victim blaming.

You see, victim blaming implies that... wait for it... YOU ARE BLAMING THE VICTIM. That's right, to victim blame, you have to be saying "It is entirely your fault".

If I get mugged as I walk out of an atm because I didn't do my due diligence and put my money away... I acted in a stupid manner. I didn't "deserve" to be mugged. The perpetrator of the crime is no less guilty or at fault; but the fact is, I acted foolishly.

Likewise, getting into a car with a stranger, REGARDLESS OF YOUR GENDER, is foolish. It doesn't mean you deserve it if something bad happens. It doesn't mean the criminal is less to blame. It does mean that you did something stupid.

Saying anything else simply shrugs off any sense of personal responsibility. Would it be nice if we lived in a crime free world where nobody has to worry about such things? Of course. But ignoring that and saying "There just shouldn't be rapists, thieves, killers" is head-in-the-sand stupidity.

jer - You and I are defining victim blaming differently than others on this thread. By our definition, this judge is not victim blaming. By theirs, it is. Once a rape has occurred, most here cease to differentiate between criticism and blame.

"The victim should not be the subject. The victim will not be the subject. At all. Her behavior, her judgment, her dress, her gender, her lifestyle... none of that is on the table for discussion. At all."

Good. Now that 'victim is not subject' has settled in... now that we're trusting her (the non-criminal) to assess her decisions for herself, maybe we can explore why you guys are so much more interested in assessing and controlling the behavior of women than the behavior of rapists. Maybe we can figure out why you just can't let it go... why you just have to return and return and return to her behavior... the behavior of the non-criminal. Why is it so damned difficult to talk about the rapist instead?

Who reads this site and doesn't know noname's schtick by now? Seriously? It is so utterly fucking played out and lame. There is no point to earnestly debating with noname, people. Noname's privilege (and apparently, jer's, although I am not as familiar with his *work* yet) blinds him from the realization that when you are a woman, many *decisions* (or as I might call them, in many cases, *necessities*; actions that are a part of normal living) put you at *risk for rape*, by the asinine standards imposed by this privileged motherfucking judge and by people like noname. The girl needed a ride to a bus station, for fuck's sake. If she had not accepted the ride and had walked alone at night in an unsafe area (or whatever else we might extrapolate), someone would show up to call THAT *stupid*. Guess what else could be called *stupid* by these ignorant, bullshit standards? Getting onto an elevator, as a woman, with a man. Being in a stairwell at the same time. Getting on an empty bus with a male driver. Getting pretty much any taxicab. Entering a store with a male clerk that is otherwise empty. Going to a male *friend's* house to watch a movie. Being in the room with a male relative. Parking in a lot with a male attendant. Going to study at the library with a male classmate. Really, the criteria here is NOT the type of space the woman enters and how fucking "objectively risky" it appears to be to some doofus on the Internet(stranger's car, laundromat, private home, what-the-fuck-ever), it is the presence of a rapist. Women perform a number of these (non) *rape-risky* actions out of necessity and inevitability because they are LIVING THEIR LIVES alongside men. Living one's life literally requires trusting the others around us in order to GET ANYTHING DONE AT ALL. Trusting others to the extent necessary to navigate one's life is not *stupid*. Trusting others, period, is not *stupid*, and is utterly irrelevant in a rape case. How utterly cynical of you, of the judge, of anyone who does not see that. Trusting others is necessary for getting through life, in a million fucking ways. Raping people is, as has been pointed out, the stupid part of the equation, the part that bears comment and critique and public shaming from authority. So is victim-blaming. So is refusing to examine your own privilege the millionth fucking time someone points it out to you.

No doubt you'll show up again to argue the degrees of *necessity* involved in getting a ride from a stranger versus the necessity of 1,000 other things, despite knowing NOTHING of the context of that girl's situation at that moment in her life. Because apparently, you have nothing else going on. Congratulations, really, readers like yourself are why many people abandon reading sites like this, or at least the comments. But that's probably what you're going for, right? Well I'm done. Fuck off.

Women cannot assume themselves to be safe with men, even with relatives, partners or authority figures. I get it. Even I can't be safe with a man.

But particularly because there are so many LGBT and their advocates here, I feel it necessary to point out:

http://www.loribgirshick.com/booklet.html

Lori B. Girshick, Ph.D.
Trainer/Consultant
LGBT Domestic and Sexual Violence

"Studies over the past two decades on lesbian sexual violence show a range from a low of five percent to a high of 57 percent of respondents claiming they had experienced attempted or completed sexual assault or rape by another woman, with most studies finding rates of over 30 percent (Brand & Kidd, 1986; Duncan, 1990; Lie, Schilit, Bush, Montagne & Reyes, 1991; Loulan, 1988; Renzetti, 1992; Sloan & Edmond, 1996; Waldner-Haugrud & Gratch, 1997; Waterman, Dawson & Bologna, 1989)."

http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book/companion.asp?id=8&compID=95

"Although the majority of rapes are committed by men, women can and do rape.1 As with sexual assaults committed by men, the perpetrator may be a partner, an acquaintance, or a stranger, and it can happen to any woman, regardless of her sexual orientation."

. . .

"The experiences of women who are sexually assaulted by other women are not widely enough known or discussed. This silence makes it harder for those of us who are sexually assaulted by women to get appropriate health care and support. Service providers, media, educators, and assault survivors can help end this silence by talking more openly about this abuse."

If you have continued reading to this point - I am sad to see that some readers have already left - we need to be sensitive to these women as victims too, because not only are they victims, it is quite likely they feel ignored and betrayed by their own gender.

Charity - Insults and putting words into my mouth. Nicely done.

szgax - Once again, the original post is about the judge and his comments regarding the victim, so naturally comments here have centered around the judge and the victim's actions about which he commented.

Hi noname, stupid Eric here.

Yes, comments are about the fuckhead judge who couldn't keep things professional and focus on the rapist. As a nurse, I'd try to be sure she's receiving the support she needs. If he can sit through a trial twiddling his thumbs allowing lawyers to bring up any objections, he could take a few minutes to open a phone book or get a card out of his drawer. What a dick.

A male - What???

Comment about judge: asshole.
Comment about comment about victim: unprofessional at best.
Your comments: the readers have heard them numerous times already, and neither side is going to change their minds.

What don't you get?

A male - You know, it is his job to sit through trials and evaluate objections, among other things. It is not his job to look through the yellow pages to refer you to the alleged victim.

Why are you calling yourself "stupid Eric"?

"It is not his job to look through the yellow pages to refer you to the alleged victim."

I am not saying he should send the victim to me. Hell, no. I look after the day to day needs of the institutionalized elderly and others with self-care deficits. She should be informed about support groups and professional therapy. I am just saying what I would do in his place, with my mindset. Would take a couple of minutes at best.

You believe it IS within his job description to call a rape victim
"stupid?" I wonder how much time he spent on the lecture he chose to give instead of real assistance? What a penis.

"Why are you calling yourself 'stupid Eric'?"

Remember writing this?

" . . . getting into a car with a stranger is stupid for many reasons, only one of which is the possibility of rape. It is stupid for men, and it is stupid for women."

That describes me in 1987 on all three counts. Fortunately the attack is far enough behind me, so to speak, for your comment not to be personally insulting.

A male - Doing something stupid doesn't necessarily mean you are stupid. Don't be so hard on yourself. And no, I do not think the judge's comments were appropriate. I have already been very clear about that here. Repeatedly.

The judge's comments were not appropriate, however I can't help but think he's right. The world is not the way we want it to be, or the way it should be. To act like it is...is stupid and naive.

She may learn more about the ways of the world when she gets older, or maybe she's learning the hard way. Maybe her family and friends will support her through this.

Ignorant and naive are different from stupid.

I hope no one here has children who will be or act "stupid," otherwise we may have to reconsider what "stupid" means.