I disagree. I think this movie was about men who have been living an extended adolescents and have to learn to give it up. The women in the movie functioned as their opposites (in other words, as adults).

I really identified with the women in the movie. I didn't feel like they were two dimensional.

Plus, I feel like Heigl is totally ignoring that there was that one pothead girl in the movie who would fit more into that fun-loving, goofy camp she describes.

Does she ever explain how Gerard Depardieu came to be her father in that one movie nobody saw?

Yeah, my thought is, "Why did you star in it if you thought it was so sexist?" It's not like she didn't read the script, is it?

I appreciate her mentioning it now at least...

I'm going to agree somewhat, just because you're an adult doesn't mean you have no sense of humor and she's right that, at least for me, the sister came off as a total shrew. And the whole, "there was one pothead girl," to me seems like the "well, there's the one [insert ethnicity here] friend, so they must not be racist!"

And I did feel like the female characters weren't as defined as their male counterparts, then again, this is a movie aimed at young men.

I saw this film the other day and found nothing sexist within the story or at least nothing more that the usual "all women should be thin, rich, beautful"-thingy...
Actually I enjoyed the goofy people in that movie :)
What realy confused me was the fact that when she gave birth to the child, they showed her private parts like three times in a closeup... I was not prepared for THAT to come. Who would expect such a closeup to apear in a mainstream movie in a birth scene? That was sooooo needless.

Aren't they all, though? And how fucked up is that--a comedy about unintended pregnancy is aimed at young men?

I must be really shrew-y because I really identified and sympathized with the married sister. ;)

I went into that movie WANTING to like it, but it was just so meh to me. Leslie Mann seems to play the "psycho bitch" female stereotypes in many of Judd Apatow's movies, which I don't care for at all.

I've only been writing about this since this May when the movie came out. Katherine could have taken a looky-loo at my blog months ago. It was hard for me to simply tolerate the movie. Maybe she could have realized the overt sexism and misogyny saturated in the script when she first read it.

EG-- I'm pretty sure that's because only a dude (not a man, mind you, but a dude)would think unplanned pregnancy is funny.

I thought it was pretty sexist too, although i don't think it was any worse than the other movies targeted at 20-30something men.

And honestly, I just didn't think it was that funny. I was even drunk when I saw it...still...no laughs.

What impressed me about the article is that she's speaking up at all about her recent career choices. How many actors go on record to say they disagree with some aspect of their film careers? As for why did she take the role if she thought the movie was sexist - the script could have changed once production started, or she could have had a recent change of heart.

I also saw another version of this article that focused more on her criticisms of her TV character, and again I say go her for being willing to speak publicly against something that could ultimately affect her bottom line.

Oh, and norbizness...i think you're referring to My Father the Hero, which I had the misfortune of seeing and oddly enough was thinking about recently in a discussion of the song "Thank Heaven for Little Girls" that happened over at Shakesville.

She thinks that's sexist? She needs to watch Superbad....although, I was glad that the main character had his brain in his head rather than his dick, which you can't say for the rest of the male characters.

Eh, I realize no one else agrees with me, but I just want to say a little bit about why I identify with the married sister.

I thought there was something really powerful about having an angry woman on screen. I feel like she doesn't take any shit from her husband or anyone. And I thought that was awesome. I guess though that I'm in the minority in finding her an angry and likeable character. It seems like most people are reading her as an angry and irritating character.

I guess I just identified with a lot of her feelings, concerns about ageism and wanting her partner to be around more often in particular. I feel like these are real weighty concerns. It's not like she was screaming about her husband about nonsense.

Am I the only one who was really moved by her emotions in the fantasy baseball scene?

I disagree. I think this movie was about men who have been living an extended adolescents and have to learn to give it up. The women in the movie functioned as their opposites (in other words, as adults).

Umm, yeah, that's kind of what makes it sexist. This stereotype that it's ok for men to have an "extended adolescence" and women are supposed to be their "opposites," all grown up and mature and there to keep those goofy men in line.

Also, when will these ridiculous pregnancy stereotypes going to die?!?! Women are emotional when they're pregnant, we get it. They think they're fat, we get it. They say they want "natural" childbirth, but change their minds the second a contraction hits (and it's always too late to get the drugs or epidural, so they are forced to have it "natural" anyway), we get it. I kept thinking is that what Judd Apatow really thought of his wife when she was carrying his child(ren)? Ick.

I thought the parts of it were ok, the rest was stereotypical crap right on par for this kind of film. I was hoping for more and got less.

ShelbyWoo,
I guess I thought the characters were drawn with enough dimensions that they weren't stand-ins for all women or all men.
I just didn't see this as a battle of the sexes movie, but rather a movie about particular people. (Though again, clearly I'm in the minority on this one.)

eh i kinda agree and kinda dont...i think it was sexist in how it portrayed women and it was unfair to make these slacker dudes look like cute fun guys while the women had to keep them in line...then again i think it did put the point across that these men need to grow up.
then again...not everyone would take that away from this movie...they might just take it for face value... :\

i thought it sucked when the bouncer dude at the club was all "you old ladies shouldnt be at a club". that was crap....they were going out to a club together and they were still acting 5x as mature as the men in the film. ugh.

IMO, the movie was a lot more than just sexist. I'm no fan of Judd Apatow and his school of perpetual "man-children" who need the loving and domesticating hand of a woman to show them the error of their ways and rear them up right. Yes, these little-boy-men all want to sit around and smoke dope and play fantasy baseball, but then come these terrible women who want to take all the fun out of their lives. Or, if you want to try to be more "positive" about it, here come these wonderful mommy-women who will help them be big boys. Ugh. This is as insulting to men as it is to women. And don't even get me STARTED on the "shmashmortion" BULLSHIT. Suffice it to say that I cannot imagine any woman at any time ever actually becoming romantically involved/invested in co-parenting with the man who replies to her declaration of, "I'm pregnant" with the words, "With a baby?!"

I blogged about how offensive I found this movie and then linked to that post in the "self-promotion" area of Feministe and response was mostly negative, with people telling me that I was misunderstanding the whole thing. (even my boyfriend wrote about it.) I stand by my dislike. And I'm SUPER GLAD to see Katherine Heigel had some reservations about it too.

hey secondhand, i loved her too! she was my absolute favorite. katherine's character was such a ninny.

Halfmad: it's not like she didn't read the script, is it?

A little birdie told me the original script was radically different than the final movie. Apparently the original was more like Apatow's Freaks and Geeks. (Also, Heigel's character initially wound up with the male nurse.) If you're really familiar with Apatow's work, you can definitely see what's his and what was put in by studio execs.

nerdalert: Leslie Mann seems to play the "psycho bitch" female stereotypes in many of Judd Apatow's movies, which I don't care for at all.

I wonder why she lets him get away with it -- after all, aren't they married in real life?

Cap'n: I'm pretty sure that's because only a dude (not a man, mind you, but a dude)would think unplanned pregnancy is funny.

I've never experienced an unplanned pregnancy, but I did develop a warped sense of humor I was in school and my mother died from cancer. When life really, really sucks, sometimes you reach a point where you either have to learn how laugh at the problem or become suicidally depressed.

Now that you mention it, I wonder if that's really the reason why Apatow -- and especially Freaks and Geeks -- rubs so many people the wrong way.

Aww . . . now I can stop being highly annoyed at her over this movie! Yay!

[Although, Izzy really did annoy me during the last season of Grey's. Haven't started watching Season 4, yet . . .]

Secondhandsally, I was absolutely moved during the fantasy baseball scene. I thought it was a great depiction of how women are expected not to want a reprieve from their husbands and children, and how utterly selfish her husband had been.

I also didn't see the male characters as positive at all. It seemed to me that Ben's character felt lost and knew he was lost the whole time, and rather than making Alison tell him what to do, she (along with his father) told him that they accept him how he is. And it wasn't until Ben realized that until he found some real direction and owned his decisions that he was happy. He didn't want an extended adolescence; he wanted Alison, he wanted family, and he looked around at his friends and realized that he wanted more than that.

Yeah, there was definitely a lot of stereotypical stuff going on, and I think it's great that Heigl is going to speak up when she doesn't feel her work matches her values. That's brave. But I didn't think the movie was awful. I actually really liked it.

And for people wondering why she did the movie: There isn't always a script when you sign on for a project. There's a concept, but not always a script, and changes are made constantly. On top of that, there's the editing which may create a different story than you set out to tell. And on top of even that is the fact that sometimes you set out to do something and it just doesn't turn out how you want it to. I was Desdemona in an all female version of Othello my senior year in college, and I went in wanting it to be a really feminist show, and it fell quite short of that. You can't always know how a project will turn out.

A lot of you are blaming her for not reading the script, but as a couple others point out, thing change during the production process. Scripts are re-written every week and by the time it's gone through the editing room, the movie may be absolutely nothing like the script, which, by the way, also lacks the ability to give one a good impression of the kind of acting that will need to be done. That's why directors stand behind the camera: to direct.

What bothers me about the article is that the attitude seems to be "she loses the right to bitch if she doesn't wear hemp and volunteer at the local women's health clinic." when really, the original criticism was so mild in the first place.

I liked Knocked Up, but it was by men and for men, which like most movies, means it isn't going to please a lot of women. It's a valid criticism.

Meh. I dunno what to think of this issue. I love, love, LOVE, Freaks and Geeks, maybe that's just me. I've only seen about half of this movie, and it's not the second coming for me or anything, but it was amusing. I don't know what smart commentary to being to the convo, just thought I'd add my 2 cents about being into F&G...

I loved the sister too! And I don't think the movie was fair to her character. A subtle and thoughtful viewer could come away from the movie understanding that she had been embittered by her husband's abandonment, and understanding that his abandonment preceded her bitterness. But I believe most of the audience still believed that he had been driven away because she was a shrew, and I believe most of the audience mistakenly believed that she had 'seen the light' in the fantasy baseball scene rather than the other way around. The truth of their relationship was that he needed to rejoin the marriage he had abandoned, not that she needed to be less of a shrew.

And how many of you saw it in the movie theatre? The 'putting her in her place' scene in the delivery room... did anyone else get an audience of guys cheering? Yeah, that was nice.

The guys were a lot more likeable than the women. They were more complicated and had more to do. Paul Rudd's solo scenes were tremendously entertaining and he was allowed to be very likeable. The fact that I was able to find Leslie Mann sympathetic is a testament to her skill as an actress, because she wasn't given very many breaks.

I wasn't offended by this movie. I thought it was funny. Most movies with pregnant women don't show the women having sex, dumping their partners, etc.

My boyfriend and I watched this movie a few weeks ago and neither of us found it particularly funny. I think I actually laughed out loud at only one part, and I can't even remember what it was. It definitely didn't live up to all the hype I heard about it. I didn't find any of the characters particularly likeable and/or endearing; they were really just the same tired stereotypes, typical movie characters with rehashed thoughts and behavior.

I don't know if its just me, but in that pic, Katharine Heigl's right nipple looks like its trying to make its debut.

On closer examination, it appears it could just be part of her dress.

If I remember the film correctly, the sister and her husband had only gotten married because she'd ended up with an unplanned pregnancy, so I guess they could have been the warning that just because you get married doesn't mean it's going to be all light and sunshine. I felt they shouldn't have been together because they just seemed miserable as a couple and if they were staying together "for the kids" then they weren't doing anyone any favors.

Which I was kinda happy to see Ben and Heigel's character not married at the end.

As for the script, yeah, shit changes A LOT even when you go into production. That's why during the strike shows are shut down, because even the day of filming a scene somethings might need to be changed, dialog tweaked, what have you. And Heigel wasn't the first choice for this role, Anne Hathaway was cast first but she dropped out because she was uncomfortable with some of the content (it was the birthing scene I believe) and then they hired Heigel. If she was taking this role during her Grey's Anatomy hiatus then she probably took it hastily, cause TV actors have a very short window to do any film while their show isn't in production, so if you're going to choose you've got to do it quick. Then again, she could have done this while still filming Grey's which is just a super strain on an already full (12-14 hour) day.

There are many reasons why the script could have been something different than when she signed on. Apatow's crew of actors is known for improvisation as well, so that could have also played into it. The dialog that was on the page might have been thrown out in favor of making it up in the moment. I know in an interview with her she said that that was something she wasn't used to, but she learned as they filmed. So that might have also played into it.

One more thing, studios will tell you what you need to do before they'll release the film. I've heard that the original ending isn't what Apatow had in mind, but the studio put their foot down (as in, you don't do this, we won't release it) and he "happy" up'd the ending so it's not really his.

i thought i would like the movie way more than i did. i was really disappointed at how two dimensional it all seemed. i didn't care for the way leslie mann's character seemed to be the epitome of the nagging wife stereotype, and paul rudd was the poor tormented husband w/ the ball and chain he had to get away from. it was predictably shallow and naive, having a baby will bring you closer together and people can grow up overnight.

i am really stoked to see heigl speak out about both this and her grey's character. cara, if you haven't yet seen season four, it gets worse before it gets better.

The movie IS SEXIST and full of MISOGYNY to the brim. I cannot, for the life of me, understand WHY ON EARTH DID SHE DO IT!

I am sick to death of seeing constant validation to the new tendency of men to remain teenagers until well into their 30s. Then, of course, society will blame WOMEN FOR NOT HAVING CHILDREN AT A YOUNGER AGE! GRRR

And NO, UNINTENDED PREGNANCY IS NOT FUNNY. But why would men care about what it would mean to women? Just laugh. After all, they aren't the ones pregnant.

(RANT RANT RANT a bit more) THE END

I was one of the few who liked the movie. It definitely wasn't a feminist movie of the week but I like Judd Apatow and i've always though Paul Rudd was hilarious.

A couple of points that I think may have gotten lost in the delivery.
I don't think that they overly tried to make Paul Rudd's character feel incredibly put upon..I think part of that is just his natural charisma coming through.. He makes observations in the movie that he is a crappy husband towards the end and Ben (Seth Rogan's) Character even calls him out for being such a crappy husband that Heigle's character won't give him another chance.

As for the scene for the sister gets put in her place. I think it was supposed to show how ben's character had finally grown. He wasn't a kid waiting for people to tell him what to do. He stood his ground and showed the sister that he maybe more for real about fatherhood than she thought and that she could trust him....

I dont know. I mean these are guy movies so they're not going to always honestly express real life but most of the comedians in this are very tongue in cheek and I still feel this is much more tastefully done than something like "chuck and larry"

I really enjoyed this movie because I thought it was a nice change from the movies that had been out around the time.
But it bothered me that there was little debate over whether she would have the baby or try and have a relationship with the father.
And I read this AWFUL article in GQ advising men that their girlfriends would like the movie because it's about love and committment. That was the part I didn't like!!!

See, given the things KH has said in the past, I don't think this is a case of "Her being strong and speaking out". SHe's making excuses for herself. Had the movie been made many years ago, it'd be different, but this sounds like she's trying to have her cake and eat it too. (pardon the cliche)This insults me. DOn't do movies if you think they're sexist, or don't pretend to care afterwards...do not insult your fans or the filmmakers.

The sister was sort of the cause of both moments of the film that really wrecked it for me, though not the *cause* of either. The first was the conclusion of the baseball scene; it was so close to being about how she was frustrated with the choices she'd made, wanted some freedom, and needed him to step up and take responsibility--and at last second veered into SUPER CLICHE TOWN with "I didn't know you wanted to come!" "I want you to KNOW what I want without me telling you!" which, gosh, I haven't seen that played for laughs in about a million sitcoms.

The second was the putting in her place scene--it seemed like the sisters were close, so when Ben (?) came in and started screaming and threw her out, even though (that I recall) Heigl's character had never said she didn't want her sister there--like, if he's so adult, why make it about the fact that *he* doesn't like the sister and thus threw her out, and not the fact that he could *deal* with the sister because his girlfriend was giving birth and wanted her there? That would have been a much bigger sign of maturity to me.

Other than that, though, I was surprised; it was still clearly a movie by and for guys, but those were the only moments that really tipped my sexism radar.

I am sick to death of seeing constant validation to the new tendency of men to remain teenagers until well into their 30s. Then, of course, society will blame WOMEN FOR NOT HAVING CHILDREN AT A YOUNGER AGE! GRRR
I don't think the movie validated the tendency at all. The movie's ultimate message was a jab at it, albeit more gently handled than most of us would like.

And NO, UNINTENDED PREGNANCY IS NOT FUNNY. But why would men care about what it would mean to women? Just laugh. After all, they aren't the ones pregnant.
The pregnancy wasn't funny, although people's reactions and actions surrounding it definitely were.

Yeah, the movie was funny, but if I wrote it, it would have been 10 minutes long because she wouldn't have had the baby. And if she did, she wouldn't have tried to include the loser father in her life. So . . . on that note, I hated the sister. KH's character wasn't really a shrew, so I could appriciate her, but I did not like how the sister reacted because I really couldn't relate to her at all. And if my man wasn't man enough to you know, tell me he wanted some time away by himself, then I would definately be evaluating what he was even doing in my life. But it was a comment that was made to me that showed me what the real harm of movies like Knocked Up lie: I was told -- by a guy (aka the key demographic audience sex/age) -- 'you know, I liked it because it showed both men and women's view points.' I proceed to tell him about my 10 min career women gets an abortion plot.

She's ambitious and if she holds out for a role that isn't sexist in some degree she won't work much in Hollywood. I don't blame her for compromising some, and as others pointed out script changes may have been made along the way.

I went to see this for her, having liked her comedy stuff in Grey's, but can't say I was disappointed because I am not a Jack Black fan anyway. I found it unbelievable that a woman who looks like Heigl and has some class (I can only judge this from her talk show appearances) would sleep with a guy who looks and acts like Black's movie characters do.

The schlub guy is overdrawn. I found the similar character played by Vaughn in The Breakup overdrawn, too, though not quite as badly as Black's.

i liked it a lot more than i thought it was only because i thought there was a lot of truth to it. KU could have been written about my first pregnancy.

my partner didnt read the fucking baby books and i didnt feel he was taking the whole thing as seriously as i was. the combination of the situation and the hormones caused me to be a fucking wreck.

the pregnant sex scene was spot on.

and shelbywoo, wanting a natural birth yet screaming for drugs and hiegl's character did is called transition. the fear and doubt and "i just cant do this, dope me up" comes pouring in. transition is a recognisable stage of labour that usually means the cervix is totally effaced and the contractions change to start pushing the baby out.

and i had to appreciate seth rogan's character telling the ob/gyn to stop being a dick because he wasnt helping the situation. he did what a partner should do in the end - be an advocate for the labouring woman.

All of my friends, male and female, came away going...huh. That was hilarious yet insanely sexist. I wanted to strangle the Leslie Mann character. She was totally not sympathetic to me. Heigl's character was waaaay too complicit.

Keep in mind, Katherine Heigl might not have understood how the movie was going to look in its final form. Scripts don't always create a really solid picture of how it's going to sound/look when its done, and actors film the scenes in bits and pieces, and rarely see the whole thing until the screening.

"I am sick to death of seeing constant validation to the new tendency of men to remain teenagers until well into their 30s. Then, of course, society will blame WOMEN FOR NOT HAVING CHILDREN AT A YOUNGER AGE! GRRR"

Those blamers seem to want us to have children in our late teens or at least early 20s...and have them with men twice or thrice our age.

I agree that the script may have been somewhat different when she chose it -- those things can change quite a lot during production. All the more reason to choose your films based on whether you agree with the overall vision and philosophy of the producers (notice I didn't say director/s). And to her saying that the film was "a little sexist," I can only say, "YATHINK???"

Check out this commentary (think I posted this here when it came out too):

" Much more than Alison, it is her sister, Debbie (Leslie Mann), who undergoes transformation. And it is this transformation, together with Ben’s, that concentrates the morality of this movie.

Debbie begins as an embodiment of everything women supposedly become if men “subject� themselves to marriage; she is nagging, cold, annoying, controlling, obsessive, uninteresting, and superficial. She obsesses over her deteriorating attractiveness as a sexual commodity, lashing out at younger women. She even calls her children’s babysitter a “high school c**t.� It is Debbie who drives her husband, who doesn’t even want an affair, to tell her lies just to escape long enough to play fantasy baseball.

The climactic scene of the movie is during childbirth. After disappearing for months Ben reemerges. He’s purchased a house, gotten a job, and finally read the baby books, but these are not the things that prove him ready for fatherhood. He also has not become sensitive to Alison’s needs and to the friendship and support shared between her and her sister, or developed any sort of remorse for his negligence (he admits freely that he never doubted she would take him back).

Instead, he proves himself by asserting absolute ownership over Alison and the soon-to-be child. When Debbie, who went through birth-training with Alison, arrives to help her sister, he takes her into the hall. Out of nowhere he starts yelling, “That’s MY room now! Back the fuck off!� He points to the waiting room and says, “That’s your area. You stay out of MY ROOM and go be in YOUR AREA!�

Debbie, publicly insulted and literally “put in her place,� is speechless for the first time. She slumps into a chair next to her husband in the waiting room and sulks. Then something remarkable happens. She softens. “I like him…He’ll make a good father and he’ll take care of her,� she says. Turns out, she was annoying and cold because there wasn’t a man in her life taking charge. In the absence of male domination, she wasn’t allowed to be feminine and submissive the way she becomes in this final scene. It truly is a Promise Keeper moment."

http://revcom.us/a/097/knocked-up-en.html

I agree.

I didn't think the movie taught men to grow out of their "extended adolescence." It taught them that even if they refuse to grow up, beautiful, successful women will still have sex with them and even end up marrying them!

And ShelbyWoo is dead on about the stereotypes of pregnant women- and of women in general.

I though the movie was one of the worst, most sexist films in theaters. HATED it.

I really enjoyed Knocked Up, as well as Superbad. I feel in both of these movies there are (and really mostly Superbad) sexist parts and comments from characters here and there, but both movies had ultimately non-sexist messages. Superbad was riddled with sexist dialouge because it was about teenage boys on a quest for sex, and I loved how at the end those expectations were dashed and unfulfilled, it has a dose of realism than can't be found in most "teen" comedies these days. I thought Knocked Up was funny and carried a message of understanding, it was a movie really about forced relationships and compromises, and learning to see all sides of people. I loved loved loved how Leslie Mann's character seemed like a huge bitch in the beginning, but the fantasy baseball scene came in and explained all of her felings and I felt I could really see where she is coming from. And for those of you who found it stereotypical that Katherine Heigel's character's hormones made her emotional, having struggled with PMDD I could completely relate to feeling a loss of control over your emotions.
It's terrible to be expected to just get over it or toughen up when you don't even know why you feel sad or what to do about it. And while I've heard the whole "oh that woman's pissed, it's obviously hormones" rant a few times, usually on television, in my personal experience actual hormonal symptoms are not taken very seriously, and usually treated as excuses. I liked that Knocked Up showed hormonal issues in a more serious light instead of the typical sitcom "better hide out at the bar for a few days" attitude.

Alecksander, what are you talking about? NEITHER of those films had non-sexist messages!

I must confess that I did not see the movie but I have done some background research and don't know where you folks gets the impression that this movie is anything other than a romantic comedy; a chic flick. The premise of this movie, like many movies targeting women, is that she meets a man living his own life and succeeds in getting him to abandon his lifestyle, get practical employment, get a practical residence, and commit exclusively to her. The pregnancy is simply the literary device that allows her to succeed in this quest.

Secondhandsally offers the conservative point of view that men who live their own lives are "adolescents" who need to "give it up" and take on the traditional role expected of them. Leslie agrees and writes, "I think it did put the point across that these men need to grow up" which again refers to securing proper employment, committing to a single woman, and providing for her financially. Kissmypineapple writes, "Ben realized... he didn't want an extended adolescence; he wanted Alison, he wanted family" which is clearly the stereotypical woman's fantasy not the man's. As mentioned, the lesson the movie teaches is that a man must "grow up" and both commit to one woman and support this women financially. MaryTracy9 goes so far as to express anger that some men are not obeying the role scripted for them and writes that she is "sick to death of seeing constant validation to the new tendency of men to remain teenagers until well into their 30s" and by "teenager" she means not fulfilling her desires and goals by marrying and having children.

Our conservative society and most women are anti-Libertine when it comes to the lifestyle choices permitted of men and this film is designed to reinforce that traditional expectation. That is, men must "grow up" and "be responsible" and commit to a single woman and provide for that women financially. The expectation is that a man should not life as he chooses, should not live his dreams, and should not live his life for himself. But rather should discard his dreams and desires to work and struggle for her goals and dreams - marry her, provide for her, buy a house for her, and have children with her. Finally, as LindaFlores (above) points out the movie not only demands the man get a job, purchase a house, and read the baby books but that he also take on the conservative role of husband (or daddy) which allows her to feel confident that she can now revert to a subservient child (or wife) role. I'm sure both the Christian and conservative MRA crowd love this film.

Leslie agrees and writes, "I think it did put the point across that these men need to grow up" which again refers to securing proper employment, committing to a single woman, and providing for her financially

Sgt york... i never defined "growing up" this way... i never said he had to commit to her or provide for her financially. she had a very successful career and supported herself...and i dont think she was looking for commitment necessarily, just support. when i say he has to grow up i mean that if their drunken one night stand results in pregnancy and she chooses to keep it, he has to mature in the sense of helping her with the kid. no one said he can't "live out his dream"...which honestly, if his dream is to run a celebrity boob website with his friends...he's going to die of starvation or get evicted at some point so thats not even realistic in the 1st place.

Hmmm... Sgt. York, I think you have pinpointed one conservative frame of the film -- i.e. that men are supposed ot "grow up" and commit to sexual exclusivity with one woman. But, I think you are off the mark when you claim that this constitutes a solely female fantasy, that somehow women are the sole beneficiaries of this system. Yes this point of view argues that men should give up their dreams and get to work and be monogamous, but it also considers women's dreams so negligible (or exactly equal to snagging a man and reproducing), that women in these movies don't even get a chance to articulate their own struggles with "living their dreams" and sacrifice! I think this is a societal fantasy, a conservative framework that both men and women in our society are subject to.
I did think this movie was sexist, but I also saw it as a commentary on sexism. The way I saw it, the movie was kind of schizophrenic -- it was, on the one hand, playing sexist stereotypes for laughs, and on the other hand showing how dysfunctional they are and how many double standards pervade society. (the scene with the strippers is juxtaposed with the scene where the women get thrown out of the club). The married couple isn't happy, the pregnant couple isn't portrayed romantically at all-- in other words, the stereotypical sex roles are failing, quite nakedly, on the screen. The saccharine "transformation" ending seemed tacked on and didn't fit with the rest of the movie.

To me, that was part of what I thought was interesting about this movie. It wasn't exactly a critique of the patriarchy, but (if you were lookihg for it), it showed how, in a patriarchal system, most people are miserable or somehow deformed by all the creepy sex roles that they have to fit into.

i haven't seen the movie but you'd be suprised at the amount of story/character development/etc that can be changed through editing.

My first thoughts about Knocked Up always go to when the star of the movie "misinterprets" a whine of "Hurry up and do it" to skip putting on a condom on altogether instead of hurrying up with putting it on. As far as I'm concern, rape by negligence. She didn't want unprotected sex and he purposely made it into unsafe sex.

all the posts speculating on the script-formation are just that: speculation. however i know the truth (insert tongue in cheek here): apatow's films (and tv too) is largely improvised. there is a script they use, but the cast creates it together.

i am dubious re: heigl posing as the heroic victim. as the av club points out so correctly, she must really want movies to tell stories about women's REAL lives, like always being the bridesmaid and never the bride! "27 Dresses" anyone? the next great feminist film?

and i agree with the ambivalence re: knocked up. as most can tell with my nerdy knowledge of apatow's creative trends, i am a fan of his work. freaks and geeks is pure genius, and undeclared is also fabulous. knocked up is not the greatest and most gender-sensitive film ever, but i think it did a pretty fine job of portraying 3-D characters, both men and women. it was kind of a deconstruction of the "my man is a slob and i am a superwoman, and i like it!" syndrome, when it refuses to let paul rudd off the hook. that having been said, i wish they stuck with their guns and went for the ending where they don't get back together. even so, the actual ending is not clear whether they're gonna "make it."

and as a parting shot, i did not find "superbad" to be the cesspool of patriarchy, either. there's an important difference between homosociality and misogyny. yes, the boys in the film are crude, but so are real adolescent males. their strength is not in their being uber-opulent studs who knock up the most chicks or what have you. rather, their value is reinforced by their loving relationship to each other, which is usually taboo to males in our patriarchal world. it sesms to take non-liberal cultures (orthodox judaism, many islamic communities, evangelical communities, others) to create space where men can perform as men and construct their genders. now, the spaces mentioned above hardly construct a masculinity i can agree with (as a feminist man), but those spaces are important. the only other space i have encountered this in is in my radical labor activism group, where we split by gender identity to speak of our gendered and embodied experiences in the group.

THAT having been said, the female characters in "superbad" were underwritten and 2-D. so boo to that.

Yeah, she speaks the truth

I just came back from a comedy club where male comedians kept talking shit about women, which would be fine, if there was anything at all to balance it out

Men can be just as emotional, controlling, bitchy, bossy, irrational, as women, with women being 51% of the consuming power in the united states right now why don't we see more stuff about that in the enterainment?

Yeah I'll be honest, I didn't see the movie nor do I have any desire to do so. Basically I'm tired of poking fun of pregnant women. Society makes being pregnant into a big joke, and it's now almost shameful to be pregnant. "HAHA pregnant women can't wear normal clothes, HAHA pregnant women have to go to the bathroom all the time and even wet themselves! HAHA sometimes they expose their breast to feed babies!"

The hilarity.

The main reason this movie didn't appeal to me (why I didn't see it) I didn't like the idea that a woman got pregnant by some loser guy and decided to throw her life off track to try and make a bad situation work.

I think a feminist issue here is how limited our imagination is for women.

Say movies are imagination where anything can be told and where anything enjoyable or entertaining can be told.

Why is it that we have so many movies and tv shows where the wife is marge simpson, struggling and striving and grumbling under her breath? Is this what young women have fantasies about?

Because the movie Knocked up is about a chubby, stubbly, pot smoking man who stumbles around in life and yet ends up with the prizes.

Where is that fantasy for the chubby, t-shirt wearing, funny, non-uptight woman? Margaret cho once said these women are wildebeasts and not supposed to have a sex drive.

If you can create that movie imaginary life, why don't we as women get comfortable with movie leads that are less than perfect looking, funny, casual, and yet still get the guy and the happy life and a great sex life?

It's like in many women's fantasy entertainment, women, and I say, women have to have a stunning looking herorine (ok, she has glasses if she's ugly) while there is any number of lovable shlubs, chubby, funny flawed men as leads. A comedian once said when she played ugly, the young women in particular rated her badly.

So I don't think the only factor is that we have a majority of males in the directors and producers seat. If you ask a woman what the chances are for a chubby unkempt, yet funny woman to get laid by a high achieving "good looking" lawyer/mba, they might say, not much.

I wouldn't give this guy character the chance he had with the woman in Knocked up in real life. But this is entertainment. Fantasy. Where is the equvalent fantasy for women? Outside of real life, on film where you can make anything up, why can't we see the enjoyable ending for the average jane character?

It's like for many of us, our imagination won't let us have imperfection with reward, even in a comedy, but men allow it, buy tickets for it, and demand it. It's like their fantasy life has more freedom.

Guys have it served up to them all the time, while the paradigm is, women are marge simpson. What's sad is how conditioned a lot of people are that they defend knocked up as great entertainment.

Set your mind free and get ready to exhale. Allow a women character that has to have her seam let out. That is not a good girl striver, yet still has the happy ending and great sex life without the usual carnage and punishment for such a woman character.

Is knocked up the best we have to offer the fantasy worlds of young women? Be an uptight broad and be the marge simpson mommy to a shlub (as well as baby). I can understand how the guy hit the jackpot, but for the woman...

I agree that the movie was a bit sexist, but I thought it was much better than most of his movies.

I connected a lot to the relationship between the two sisters. The older sister character reminded me a lot of my older sister and they shared the same kind of relationship that we do.

Also, I agree with that the fantasy-baseball scene was moving. If anybody's ever been in a serious relationship, they can understand that sometimes your partner can forget that you need time to relax and have fun too. I thought it was great that this showed up in an Apatow film.

It wasn't perfect, but sexism and gender roles still exist today. We can't hate a movie because those things that are a part of our everyday lives is in that movie.

Linda, wow, I don't think I could have read this scene more differently than you if I tried.

"He also has not become sensitive to Alison’s needs and to the friendship and support shared between her and her sister, or developed any sort of remorse for his negligence (he admits freely that he never doubted she would take him back)."

He absolutely has become sensitive to her needs, and shows himself perfectly capable of being calm and reassuring to her, while yelling at doctors in the other room (advocating for the woman in labor) to get her what she said she wanted.

I also think he had a lot of respect for Leslie's character.

"Instead, he proves himself by asserting absolute ownership over Alison and the soon-to-be child. When Debbie, who went through birth-training with Alison, arrives to help her sister, he takes her into the hall. Out of nowhere he starts yelling, “That’s MY room now! Back the fuck off!� He points to the waiting room and says, “That’s your area. You stay out of MY ROOM and go be in YOUR AREA!�"

I LOVED this scene! The one thing with Allison's sister was that she was way too type A, and had to take over anything she was a part of. But Allison has invited him back into this process now, and he knows the only way he can control the situation (which is not his having ownership over Allison! At this point in the birthing process she needs an advocate) he needed her sister not to take the control away from him. I think he also knew that she (Allison's sister) would respect him for being assertive, whereas she would have thought him weak if he had backed off and deferred to her. If he's going to be anything in Allison's life, he had to show he was willing to own up to his responsibilities and the role she had chosen for him.

"Debbie, publicly insulted and literally “put in her place,� is speechless for the first time."

I think this is the thing I disagree with the absolute more. She's not speechless because she's insulted, she's speechless because she's IMPRESSED. Being such a dominant personality, she respected his FINALLY showing some backbone as well.

"She softens. “I like him…He’ll make a good father and he’ll take care of her,� she says."

I didn't see this as her softening at all, she sits down with respect for Ben for the first time, and that's what this quote is expressing.

"Turns out, she was annoying and cold because there wasn’t a man in her life taking charge."

Well, yes. But only because she is a heterosexual woman. She's an alpha female who wants an alpha male to match. That's not sexist, that's just real life, for me anyway, as an alpha female who is with an alpha male.

"In the absence of male domination, she wasn’t allowed to be feminine and submissive the way she becomes in this final scene. It truly is a Promise Keeper moment."

Again, not remotely what I saw at all, for all the reasons already listed.

secondhandsally and others, I loved Leslie's character! Definitely angry but still likable. To be honest I think a lot of people are selling the movie short here. The characters were all a lot more complicated than it appeared with a first glance. secondhandsally, you said it best I think: "I just didn't see this as a battle of the sexes movie, but rather a movie about particular people." A movie about particular people indeed.

*absolute MOST, not more.

OK, I never had the least, even slightest, inclination to see a movie called "Knocked Up"

But having read the description of the birthing scene I am absolutely spewing. WHAT THE FUCK?!

"Instead, he proves himself by asserting absolute ownership over Alison and the soon-to-be child. When Debbie, who went through birth-training with Alison, arrives to help her sister, he takes her into the hall. Out of nowhere he starts yelling, “That’s MY room now! Back the fuck off!� He points to the waiting room and says, “That’s your area. You stay out of MY ROOM and go be in YOUR AREA!�"

I LOVED this scene! The one thing with Allison's sister was that she was way too type A, and had to take over anything she was a part of. But Allison has invited him back into this process now, and he knows the only way he can control the situation (which is not his having ownership over Allison! At this point in the birthing process she needs an advocate) he needed her sister not to take the control away from him. I think he also knew that she (Allison's sister) would respect him for being assertive, whereas she would have thought him weak if he had backed off and deferred to her. If he's going to be anything in Allison's life, he had to show he was willing to own up to his responsibilities and the role she had chosen for him.

"Debbie, publicly insulted and literally “put in her place,� is speechless for the first time."

I think this is the thing I disagree with the absolute more. She's not speechless because she's insulted, she's speechless because she's IMPRESSED. Being such a dominant personality, she respected his FINALLY showing some backbone as well.

"She softens. “I like him…He’ll make a good father and he’ll take care of her,� she says."

I didn't see this as her softening at all, she sits down with respect for Ben for the first time, and that's what this quote is expressing.

"Turns out, she was annoying and cold because there wasn’t a man in her life taking charge."

Well, yes. But only because she is a heterosexual woman. She's an alpha female who wants an alpha male to match. That's not sexist, that's just real life, for me anyway, as an alpha female who is with an alpha male.

JESUS CHRIST

I acknowledge the overused gender stereotypes in Apatow's work, but what pisses me off more than that - what I think really demonstrates misogyny - is all the blatant, undisguised vagina hate.

In Superbad and Knocked Up, the word "pussy" was thrown around liberally as the ultimate insult for a man, and the natural functions of female genitalia (Ex - menstruation and childbirth) provoked horrified repulsion in the young male characters. I find this very destructive, as a feminist who prioritizes a world where both genders are comfortable with vaginas. We don't need more adolescents who are grossed out and mystified by them!

The frustrating thing is that I think these films would be amusing and clever without this sexist, phobic bullshit. When young people see films where guys practically vomit at the sight of menstrual blood, I think we have a serious problem, Mr. Apatow.

Icky feelings about vaginas lead to poor body image, inaccurate health info, silence, shame, and an environment where sexual violence can thrive.

I acknowledge the overused gender stereotypes in Apatow's work, but what pisses me off more than that - what I think really demonstrates misogyny - is all the blatant, undisguised vagina hate.

In Superbad and Knocked Up, the word "pussy" was thrown around liberally as the ultimate insult for a man, and the natural functions of female genitalia (Ex - menstruation and childbirth) provoked horrified repulsion in the young male characters. I find this very destructive, as a feminist who prioritizes a world where both genders are comfortable with vaginas. We don't need more adolescents who are grossed out and mystified by them!

The frustrating thing is that I think these films would be amusing and clever without this sexist, phobic bullshit. When young people see films where guys practically vomit at the sight of menstrual blood, I think we have a serious problem, Mr. Apatow.

Icky feelings about vaginas lead to poor body image, inaccurate health info, silence, shame, and an environment where sexual violence can thrive.

I'm gonna be a bitch and say that with people like the commenters who LIKED the movie and where willing to spend money on it, I'm not surprised feminism has no impact AT ALL in the mainstream media, much less in society as a whole.

Fenriswolf - you are way off base with your comments - you should see the movie before commenting. Seriously, way off base.

For example - the guy DOES NOT ABANDON HER! SHE abandons HIM! She decides he isn't grown up enough and ends it with him, not the other way around.

He only comes back because he finally manages to convince her that he is worthy and that he's turned his life around, but it's all on HER terms.

I also definitely agree that when Seth stands up to the doctor at the end it is perfectly right and sensible for Leslie Mann to be impressed - hell I was impressed - because he was finally growing up and taking responsibility and taking charge - exactly what she had been trying to get him to do the whole time.

Some of these comments really annoy me. Especially when some admit they haven't even seen the movie.

For the record I actually really like this movie - I think it's hilarious and yet it also has some important serious parts/messages as well. Is it perfect? No. But it's a far cry from how some of these comments describe it. And I don't think it's a pure guy movie at all, if it was then why would they even have alot of the material about the guys needing to grow up, why make Paul Rudd look so bad for going to baseball, why make all the men realize there is more to life then just partying all the time, etc.

I think the movie certainly played on sexist stereotypes. And the premise of a women trying so hard to develope a relationship with a one night stand was a bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

I didn't think the movie intended to be sexist. I think if you really examine the characters motivations it comes off as fairly balanced. But I think it could be easy to just tune out the women because they were "shrews" and then totally miss the message of the movie. (I LOVED the baseball scene, but I had to explain why she wasn't being an evil shrew to my boyfriend.)

You know all those movies where the woman works too hard and just has to learn to loosen up and be more fun-loving (by quitting her high-paying job and getting with some guys)? (See "In Her Shoes" and "Just Like Heaven")

All I meant by my first comment, is that this movie doesn't do that. Instead of it being Heigels character who has to learn to be more "like the boys" and loosen up, it's the guy who has to learn to be like her. I don't feel like the women in this movie are asked to trade power for love.

And yes, I think it's the definition of sexist to say that men and women as a group are all one way (fun-loving or mature). But again, I don't think this movie was about all men or about all women. I think the characters were too well drawn for that.

NOW i can like Katherine again. I could barely sit through this movie without wanting to throw something at the screen. She is 100% right about how it depicted women. Her sister in that movie was such a horrible, whiny, nasty human being that OF COURSE her husband was not going to want to be around her. She was the epitome of everything I cant stand about women and how the media portrays women, and frankly, I was hoping she would get her comeuppance in the form of some divorce papers but it never came. What kind of wife checks his email, then BREAKS AND ENTERS to a house where she found some random address, and then treats fantasy baseball like its an affair? A crazy woman thats who. All her talking about how you need to "train" men and whatnot was sexist to both genders, and honestly she is exactly the type of woman I dont want to be associated with, much less have that be a representation of all women on the big screen. Where is the dignity for women in this movie?

Katherine turned into a bit of a shrew, and frankly, I think it is a absolutely horrible message to send young girls that if you get pregnant after a one night stand, you will fall in love with the guy and he will love you and everything will pretty much work out. I can hardly believe I dont see more women on this board mentioning that. It is an absolutely horrible message to send, I was shocked people even thought it was an ok movie bc i couldnt get past that at all.

And on top of all that, it just wasnt all that funny. ugh. I couldnt believe how much i hated that movie. Perhaps what is even more depressing is that feminist on this board think its an accurate representation of life. yikes.

Can we please stop making commments that if you liked this movie you are somehow a deficient feminist? I think that there are many text/works of art that have traditionally been read as sexist in which one could find a feminist reading (Madame Bovary for example).

This is a difference of opinion. There is no need to start the purge.

I saw it with the guy I was dating at the time (my second time watching the movie, his first) who was a single dad, and when I said the Leslie character was overwrought, he set me straight. I had sort of gotten the baseball scene at that point, but what he told me was that in a relationship that long, it is not always the person who seems overtly aggressive who is inflicting the most harm. Or something like that.

And are you guys forgetting the scene in Vegas where Paul Rudd basically calls himself a screwup for not being able to accept his wife's love? And says that he loves her as well? Sure, he's on drugs, but he does seem to mean it.

And when Leslie says "Just because you don't yell, doesn't mean you aren't mean."?

I think there is a lot more emotional depth in relationships here, although yes, I did think it was a touch unrealistic that 1) she would sleep with him in the first place, 2) she would consider a relationship with him, instead of just involving him in the child's life.

I did like the "fuck you, hormones" scene. I thought the Ben character showed some maturity b/c he recognized that the extreme behavior was not how Alison would have normally reacted. Having had friends who've had post-partum issues, and depression based on birth control, I think a partner who recognizes that hormonal issues are NOT THE WOMAN'S FAULT is head and shoulders over those who don't. Like my friend who got all weepy post partum (so not her) and her husband said "you're acting like the baby." I told her, yeah, inject him with the hormones running through your system right now, and he'd be bawling his eyes out too. It made her laugh a bit and feel better, and realizing that the problem was CHEMICAL and not due to any deficiency in her as a woman (I think) made her recover much easier.

and Mary Tracy I think your comment is 100% right on target.

Fenriswolf: you are surprisingly astute with your comments considering you have not seen the movie.

Because it is a Judd Apatow movie it is better than many others, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't rehearse a lot of the same tropes that have been explained so well in many comments above.

I have two more reflections:

"Alpha male" and "Alpha female" are ways for people to say "I'm better than you." Do you know anyone who describes themselves as a "Beta male" or "Beta female"? Why not? Because it would mean that they were saying they were inferior to the "Alphas"? All I hear when someone says "Alpha" is privilege and unwarranted feelings of superiority.

"Driven" might be a better phrase.

Also, I think the issue of female funlessness (if that's a word) is where wingnuts and MRA's have all of their overlap. Wingnuts want sex to be a punishment for women. They want women to have no option to avoid pregnancy and they want women to have no good social service options to help support unexpected children once they arrive. MRA's want women to bear all responsibility for children, and would like to maintain the right to breeze in and out as they see fit with no real change to their own lifestyles. Women don't want men to be miserable, they just want an equitable distribution of responsibility and an equitable expectation of choice in planning our destinies. When we are able to control reproduction we are able to relax and have fun. Fancy that!

I was listening to the radio this morning and the DJs started talking about this story. They were upset with Heigl, and the comments were, "She says the women were uptight? Isn't she proving that right now!" They basically said she was an uptight ungrateful bitch, and said that men and women are presented this way because that's how they really are. Isn't that a Catch 22? She wants to be a working actor, but her highest profile work is in a movie where she gets to be the uptight bitch in contrast to Seth Rogen's loveable schlub. She's right to want more! She's right to be frustrated! But unfortunately that understandable frustration is seen as a confirmation of the mirthlessness of women in general. How wonderful it must be to be among the privileged, who have the freedom to choose from many different roles and aren't forced to perform the pinched and joyless form of femininity that is rehearsed for us in almost every mainstream movie.

i would also like to mention that if there was a movie about a fat, slobby, lazy woman who got a good looking guy, alot of women here would be like WOW what a great message. and then if some dude came on here and called her fat and slobby, we would crucify him for being sexist and sizest. now of course i do NOT agree with the media tendency towards making guys like this the norm who then have beautiful women fall in love with them, however I just think its a little hypocritical.