That's really scary. Security should break that up. I've never been to a Jets game, but I've been to Giants games (they share the stadium) and I've never seen anything like that. We go and tailgate before the game, and it's men and women together having a good time. Just the camaraderie of fans, nothing else. There are lots of women in the stands for Giants games, too, and I've never seen or heard of problems In future I'll avoid Gate D, though!

I went to see a Steelers game @ Bengals and got called a whore and lesbo, etc. Male Steelers fans were called fags, of course. Far be it from me to explain idiocy and sexism to stupid drunken Bengals fans, though.

Rowdy fans have been and continue to be a problem. Comparing American football fans to European soccer fans is not a good comparison though as the documented violence is far far greater with soccer. Sometimes groups, comrprised of men, men and women, or women, get out of hand and the mob mentality can take over. I remember a few pretty rough Eagles games but I've been to well over 100 football games in my life, both pro and college, and when you have 20000 to 110000 people all in a close proximity, alcohol available and so on I would have to say the conduct of American fans has been the best that one could hope for.

I'm a little hazy as to what the point of this blog entry was, a few hundred fans out of 50,000 got out of hand and acted rudely. A few times those fans have even broken the law and they should be dealt with but in no way should events like these be used to paint fans in general nor should it be used to highlight some sort of nexus of all the negative male qualities.

This is interesting... I've been to several Steelers home games, and although the fans here are inclined to hurl profanities at fans of opposing teams, I haven't witnessed that kind of female-oriented abuse. I also read, though, that the Steelers have twice as large a proportion of their fanbase that are women than any other NFL team, and there are usually a ton of women at the games (whereas the article mentioned "few" women at the Jets game).

So if alcohol fueled packs of men do not automatically translate into women-basing hordes in every single setting, it would be interesting to know what it is about Jets fan culture that resulted in this kind of ugly scene (as opposed to gender-neutral ugly scenes that dominate most live football games).

BluePencils, the article specifically says that it's never been a problem at Giants games, only Jets games. Weird, huh?

I read this earlier today and thought about sending it in, but I figured one of the feministing bloggers would find it :)

dananddanica:

"I'm a little hazy as to what the point of this blog entry was..."

I don't think it was to say that all male fans at all sporting events act like this - the article singled out Jets fans at Jets home games. It's pretty extreme, out-of-the-ordinary behavior, and I think that was the point of the article.

I was disappointed in the reporting for this article. The reference to the Janet Jackson incident completely misses the point that the indifferent reaction to such blatant sexism is a serious issue and has nothing to do with an accidental exposure. The interviews were also poorly chosen, as the only woman interviewed was pleased to oblige with the crowd's demands. The conclusion with concerned parents who want to protect their children from hearing curse words takes away from the more fundamental problem that it is still largely considered acceptable to reduce and demean women with such taunts. While it is good that this article will bring more attention to how widespread and mainstream sexist attitudes still are, I think this article was a missed opportunity to highlight the deeper issues underlying such disgusting behavior.

I found the reported official reactions especially repugnant. If these bozos were shouting racist filth, action would be taken. Misogynist, sexist, and homophobic behavior is still acceptable.

I found the reported official reactions especially repugnant. If these bozos were shouting racist filth, action would be taken. Misogynist, sexist, and homophobic behavior is still acceptable.

That's really outrageous. I've never been to a football game, but I've been to plenty of baseball games. I sat in the upper deck at Game 1 of the Mets/Cardinals NLCS game and at a Subway Series (Mets/Yankees) game last year, and none of the opposite teams' fans in my vicinity were ridiculed or anything like that. Nothing more than one would expect as a visiting fan, you know, just boos and stuff. It's all in good fun. Maybe baseball is just different?

I think the average male sports fan would love to have a mate who's in to sports. So I think the sexist behavior of male sports fans might deter women from going to the games, and men lose out on meeting eligible women who love sports as much as they do.

Bastards. Mob Mentality be damned, at some point some guy needs to be like "uhh hey, this is disgusting." They are all responsible for being jerks, I don't care how many other jerks they are hanging out with.

Check out the comments on this blog: http://thebiglead.com/?p=3735. Disgusting.

Am I wrong to kindof think it is disgusting that some women give in to this too? I mean, I'm sure if it didn't work they'd eventually give up.

Shinobi, I've felt for a long time that the more offensive to women something is, the cooler the woman is for thinking it's acceptable. So in my opinion, it is pretty disgusting that some women are willing to cultivate male approval from these losers, but at the same time... what if I happened to be in that area, and then guys started throwing bottles at me when I didn't flash? I might flash them out of concern for my own safety.

Shinobi, I agree that it is sad when women oblige. They should know better too. But I don't think this harassment would subside even without encouragement -- it is a kind of bonding experience for lots of guys. They don't actually expect to get lucky with the girls they holla at, but they impress each other with their confidence. That's the point.

Shinobi, I agree that it is sad when women oblige. They should know better too. But I don't think this harassment would subside even without encouragement -- it is a kind of bonding experience for lots of guys. They don't actually expect to get lucky with the girls they holla at, but they impress each other with their confidence. That's the point.

I have to wonder if women didn't ever go along with this, would it get to the point of thrown bottles and spitting? It might still. (And doing something for your own safety is okay with me.)

*Sigh* Readings shit like this makes me wish I were a lesbian. What's really scary is that these guys are walking the streets, going into bars, possibly even meeting women, and in the presence of a woman would not show the slightest signs of being a misogynist bastard. This macho sporty frat-boy culture is rampant where I live.

If I remember correctly, a few years back, before I moved here, some of the college football players were tried for rape and the University covered it up so as not to spoil their chances of playing football. It makes me so sick to think about.

I think I might go throw up before heading out to work...*sigh*

And people wonder why I am a prohibitionist.

I hope that all of these people are rounded up and dealt with very harshly.

Pretty sad that misogyny, misandry, homophobia, Islamophobia and xenophobia are widely accpeted in our society. Shows the sorry state of affairs our nation is in.

"*Sigh* Readings shit like this makes me wish I were a lesbian. "

YogiDanielle, how exactly would that change anything? If you were in that situation and drunked assholes were sexually harrassing you in public, how would being a lesbian be a deterrant or offer protection? I don't really see what you are getting at. And I seem to recall a thread a few months back with a discussion of the dismissiveness of statements like, "Shit like this makes me want to be a lesbian."

betty, what I took from her comment is that if she were a lesbian, she wouldn't have to worry that some guy she met, liked, and was dating might be the kind of scum who does something like this when she's not there--definitely not that she would be immune to harrassment.

I can understand that sentiment, but it is a little off-putting to hear that whole "I wish I were a lesbian" thing whenever the subject of misogynistic douchebags comes up, which is pretty often.

Yeah, I hear that. It's a fair objection.

Not to bag on YogiDanielle, because I understand the sentiment behind your statement, but the "I wish I were a lesbian" comments also imply that lesbianism is the result of man-hating, rather than woman-loving. And in a situation like the one described here, I'd rather be a straight (looking) lady than a dyke!

When my partner and I were in Istanbul I was REALLY excited to go to a soccer game in a soccer-crazy country, but we were pretty much forbidden to go because of the harassment we were sure to endure, even if we brought men along with us. Not just verbal harassment, but every Turk I talked to assured us that we would be grabbed, touched, molested etc. And they don't even have booze at the games there!

the article specifically says that it's never been a problem at Giants games, only Jets games. Weird, huh?

Krissy--I hadn't actually read the NYT article at that point. Yeah, it is weird. I don't know much about Jets fans vs. Giants fans--I'm not actually a football fan, my husband is. However, I am an ice hockey fan, and I've noticed a big difference in the behavior of NY Ranger and NY Islander fans, something that's been going on since I was a young teen going to games at MSG. I once got bottles and stuff thrown at me--a fourteen-year-old girl--because someone identified me as an Islander fan, even though the Rangers were playing a different team that night. Luckily we were in a skybox (they didn't have glass back then) and I was able to get out of the way. Still, that's besides the point. What I don't understand is why the Meadowlands security allows that behavior to continue. They have a lot of big, beefy security guards, specifically to handle drunk male football fans getting out of control. Why haven't they broken it up? I'm sure they're going to now with the media attention, but that's not good enough. I'm not sure I want to go to any Giants games anymore. I don't think I'd feel safe, even with my husband and his friends.

"The mood of previous Gate D crowds — captured on video clips posted on YouTube — sometimes bordered on hostile, not unlike the spirit of infamously aggressive European soccer hooligans."

I'm reminded of this thread now:

http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28544

"There is an unwritten code of conduct (who the hell would actually sit down and write one?!) around scrapping at the footy. There are basically three 'rules' that are adhered to by most firms..."

"Pretty sad that misogyny, misandry, homophobia, Islamophobia and xenophobia are widely accpeted in our society."

Don't forget the "if you're not Islamophobic then you must be misogynist!" and "if you're not misogynist then you must be Islamophobic!" attitudes out there too. o_O

Oh, nice. The woman gets a warning about indecent exposure for showing her breasts, but none of the men get a word for harassing the women because it would violate free speech laws?

I'm a lesbian and I always get irritated when straight women make comments about it being easier or wishing they were lesbians so they wouldn't have to deal with men. Look, life is hard for everyone, unless you're an upper class white Christian man. We just have different things to deal with. If you really wish you couldn't get health insurance for your partner (or have to pay taxes on it if you can get it), worry about being able to see her if she's hospitalized, and worry about the one who outlives the other losing your home because of unequal tax laws, then come talk to me about how awful it is to have to date men.

Third non sequitur: I've been an opposing fan in pro baseball, pro hockey, and college basketball venues with no problems. My baseball team of choice has a large female fan base, though. I think that's pretty common though I don't know why. When my sister and I have gone to a game and have sat surrounded by male fans of the other team, we were treated simply as fans and the guy next to me struck up a conversation with me about the relief pitchers. I have to say that I'm a little surprised when I'm treated like I know all about the sport (I do), but it does redeem my faith in men a bit. Hockey also attracts female fans though there are definitely more male fans in the arenas than female. Hockey arena announcers like get the crowd's attention during commercial breaks with things like delivering a pizza to someone or having a funny face camera where they will show women as well as men, which would make it a more comfortable place to be a female attendee.

This is just fucking digusting.

ugh, that is awful. i can totally relate to how those women feel. Hockey is really big here, and when my city's team got into the Stanley cup finals, entire parts of the city were filled with people like this. crowds flooded the streets, people broke store windows, started setting things like phone booths and garbage on fire, and harassing women. And it was not just a few guys, it was hundreds of them in the street, chanting! There's a few videos of it on youtube. Here's one where someone sets off a firecracker or something under 2 women in a shopping cart. If you want to die a little, read the comments too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdFnyXv-fjw&feature=related

The entire fracas that went down @ Giants' Stadium was appalling and disgusting.

The security should have arrested all of the men who were chanting (even those who weren't willfully participating) and charge all of them for harassment. And they should have arrested Dennise Rivera for exposing her breasts.

The NFL should fine the Jets and Giants no less than $10,000,000 apiece and strip each team 50% of their draft picks. The Giants' own the stadium, so that is why I would hold them responsible as well. We need to really lower the boom on sexual harassment.

There are other things related to this incident that really infuriates me, such as the lack of surveillance cameras at sports stadiums such as the Meadowlands and Darlington Raceway. Every sports stadium should have security cameras at every part of the stadium at least 12 feet apart from each other. Cameras should be in other areas, too, such as pedestrian ramps. That would've made it easier to find the evil slimeballs that harassed and assaulted these women.

And here is the straw that broke the camel's back: posting actions like this on Youtube. That is what really stirs my vehement opposition to camera phones. I hope that security will confiscate every camera phone before the crowd gathers at all gates at every sports arena for the duration of each event (meaning that the people would get them back after the event is over or if they are leaving early). If security at our stadiums can't at least do those two things, then Congress should step in.

After reading the paragraph before in the NYT, I will take back what I said about arresting Rivera.

Oy, this is what happens when I post whilst operating on two hours of sleep and don't think before I speak. Let me clear this up...

What I meant was that, if I were a lesbian, I wouldn't have to worry about potentially being attracted to a man who is vile in this way. I'm with someone now, but that could change, and if it does, what scares me more than anything is that these guys are probably nice guys on the surface, and underneath they're dangerous and predatorial. And they're out there. Granted, I would still have to work with them, go to school with them, and probably at some point be sexually harassed by them, but I would never have to worry about dating someone who is secretly predatorial in this way. Not that women can't be predatorial, but it's just not as likely, and certainly not as likely on as big of a scale as this one.

I wasn't by any means implying or trying to imply that lesbianism is the result of hating men. If that's what it sounded like then I apologise for my lack of clarity or, rather, lack of thought into what I was saying.

Nor was I implying that it would be easier to be a lesbian on the whole, simply that it would be something I wouldn't worry about. On the otherhand, I'd have a laundry-list of other things to worry about. I'd have to worry about douchebag men for much worse reasons, as a matter of fact. If these men hate women, then they probably are homophobic as well (perhaps as an extention of that need for macho assertion). The threat of rape/sexual harassment compounded with the fear of violent hate crimes is something I will never have to worry about.

I will end by saying that deconstructing heterosexist and patriarchal norms in language and society is a process, one which I am still working through, and thank you for calling me on it. Heterosexist views of reality aside, as a former philosophy major, I should know better than to make illogical arguments.

Thank you YogiDanielle, I see where you are coming from. I've definitely said some things on this board and come back a few hours later and thought, "Doh! That didn't come off how I meant it."

I know it sucks to have to look at guys, especially potential dating partners, and wonder if they are the same assholes who do shit like this. But nonetheless, it is always important to examine the statements we make in response to that frustration, which is why this board is great for calling out things like that and providing an opportunity for further discussion and consideration.

"There are other things related to this incident that really infuriates me, such as the lack of surveillance cameras at sports stadiums such as the Meadowlands and Darlington Raceway. Every sports stadium should have security cameras at every part of the stadium at least 12 feet apart from each other. Cameras should be in other areas, too, such as pedestrian ramps. That would've made it easier to find the evil slimeballs that harassed and assaulted these women."

Now I'm reminded of another part of that Cyburbia thread I linked to earlier:

"...Veterans Stadium was so bad with fights that they built a special courtroom in the basement just for game days so people could be prosecuted on the spot..."

This is one of the many reasons I have such a disdain for sports.

Syndicalist702, incidents like that is one of the main reasons why I watch pro sports on TV. And to top it off, I hardly ever go to high school football games outside of Williston-Elko's Devils Den.

Jovan - My disdain lies in the way we as a culture hold athletics in too high a regard. Besides, when's the last time you saw a pep rally thrown for the Beta Club? *crickets* I don't remember one either. That's the problem. Brawn matters more than brains in our society. That's why we've become a bunch of impulsive dimtwits - we've all but ignored intellect while praising jocularity (made that one up myself) - thus propagating unabridged patriarchy and other societal ills. I feel that as long as athletics take a higher priority in learning institutions and in society than intellectual pursuits, we will continue to regress as a species.

Syndicalist, thanks for being specific. I can understand your frustration with the fact that other extracurricular activites such as the Future Business Leaders of America (FBLA) and Beta Club are hardly ever recognized in our society. I was an FBLA member in my last two years at high school.

And the patriarchy-lovers will probably hate what I am about to say: we can mix brains with brawns. I heard for the last two days on the news about how few people are reading. It is just sad.

"we've all but ignored intellect while praising jocularity (made that one up myself)"

BTW, just so you know, someone else made up "jocularity" too:

http://www.answers.com/topic/jocular

joc·u·lar (jÅ?k'yÉ™-lÉ™r)
adj.
Characterized by joking.
Given to joking.

[Latin ioculÄ?ris, droll, from ioculus, diminutive of iocus, joke.]

jocularity joc'u·lar'i·ty (-lăr'ĭ-tē) n.
jocularly joc'u·lar·ly adv.

(from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2007, 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.)

"Syndicalist, thanks for being specific. I can understand your frustration with the fact that other extracurricular activites such as the Future Business Leaders of America (FBLA) and Beta Club are hardly ever recognized in our society."

I agree. Meanwhile, part of the recognition problem seems to be the organization brand name thing. Before looking it up today I didn't know if Beta Club was another business thing or a techie thing or whatever. I bet a lot of you don't recognize Odyssey of the Mind (see http://www.odysseyofthemind.com/ ) either.

So...suppose a bunch of different schools all have groups of kids playing soccer and/or saxophones. Chances are that they all call it "soccer team" and "band."

Now suppose a bunch of different schools all have groups of kids playing with technology and/or public service. Chances are that one school calls it "Odyssey of the Mind" and "Beta Club," another calls it "FIRST" and "Key Club," yet one more calls it "Science Team" and "Interact," etc.

Hmm.

What if lots of schools had "public service club" and "tech team," and meanwhile one school had "NCSL" and "Sax Quartet," another had "EuroFootball" and "Brass Bandwagon," yet another had "Metro League" and "Jazz Club"...?

Mina... shows how much I know. Duh. Thanks for clarifying.