Funny, I wouldn't let a baby use my organs and nutrients for nine months either if I didn't want it to.

It's interesting that you refer to a baby as an "it" FemiDancer. If more than half the babies conceived are women, aren't you doing exactly the same thing Jessica is bitching about here? Not treating women as people when you refer to them as "it"s?

Besides being insulting, that was just weird. Why would a baby be in a cardboard box? If I thought one was in there, I would be opening the box to get the trapped baby out before it suffocated.

Babies aren't really people with a lot of agency, are they? I used "it" as a gender neutral term. Would you prefer I used the clumsy he/she?

Learn a little bit about the history of the language you use, buffy. Infants and small children have been routinely referred to as "it" in English for hundreds of years. Pick up any 19th-century novel. One could conceivably argue that it is ageist, but not sexist--I quite like it, actually, because of the tacit acknowledgment in the practice that gendering is a social construct and babies are pretty much indistinguishable by sex.

And no babies conceived are women. Babies can be female, but women are adult female human beings.

Back on topic, I love this ridiculous "Schrodinger's Baby" nonsense. Can't you tell if a box has a baby in it? Even without opening the box, you could listen for the sound of the baby breathing, pick it up to see if it weighs the same as a baby, gently joggle it to see if the object inside reacts the way a baby would...forced-birthers are always coming up with these ridiculous hypotheticals that could never, ever happen. Who runs around hiding babies in box factories? Is this some kind of weird baby scavenger hunt? Why is this relevant?

I don't know about you folks, but if I thought there was a chance there was a baby in a box, I'd open the box and get the baby out.

Just sayin'.

KMP, EG, and Johanna: Agreed, and I love the idea of a strange pro-life baby Easter hunt in a box factory.

Why would a baby be in a cardboard box?

Isn't that where everyone stores their excess babies?Here's a simple test to find out if there is a baby in the box...shake it. If there's a baby in there, it'll let you know.

This is the kind of shit that gives people the idea get legislation started to stop all women of child-bearing age from doing anything that might jeopardize a would-be "baby," because, you know, she might not know she's pregnant or she's too dumb to make decisions for herself.

Who runs around hiding babies in box factories? Is this some kind of weird baby scavenger hunt? Why is this relevant?

Even anti-choicers don't think this is a practical possibility, since the box factory in the commercial is computer generated.

The parallel doesn't even make sense. "If there's a baby in a box" doesn't translate, even metaphorically, to "if a fetus is a person." I thought they were going to say "If there's a possibility that you could get pregnant, treat yourself as if you are, just in case." Equally sexist, but at least the parallel would be there.

FEMily - that is what I thought too. I thought it was going to be a "pre-pregnant" sort of thing.

Femidancer: Funny, I wouldn't let a baby use my organs and nutrients for nine months either if I didn't want it to.

BuffyTheWhite: It's interesting that you refer to a baby as an "it" FemiDancer. If more than half the babies conceived are women, aren't you doing exactly the same thing Jessica is bitching about here? Not treating women as people when you refer to them as "it"s?

AAAHAHAHAAA!!!! Are you kidding me? Female feti = women? "Bitching"?

Is it wrong that the first thing I thought of was "Well, I lost my cherry but I still have the box it came in"? And maybe only Catholics have boxes for uteri, as the group is called insidecatholic.com?

Strangely enough, I actually think the argument is more logical than most from that side. I personally don't like to get into the "is the fetus a baby" or "when does life begin" discussion, as I think bodily autonomy and the ability to make one's own medical desisions is more important. However, when arguing with someone who is saying "a fetus is not a baby", it's just as valid, logically, to say "a fetus might be a baby".

I agree with ShelbyWoo. When I saw this, I thought they were going to say 'If you think you could be pregnant, you should take care of yourself, just in case.' I would have taken it as a health service announcement (even though not a very good one). All in all, the uterus is STILL compared to a box. The word woman isn't even mentioned, and it ticked me off how it was all about the baby.

The web address given at the end of the video was more-than-telling... insidecatholic.com?! They've had a long-standing position against women's reproductive rights and contraception, so why am I not surprised that they would equate a woman's uterus to a cardboard box that "Might have a baby in it."

"...Just something to think about."

Indeed. Let's think, instead, about taking a few steps forward. Simply put, a being that already is IS more substantial than a being that "might be."

I don't think anybody truly likes the prospect of abortion, but some people will never grasp the difference between pro-choice and anti-life.

Ugh. Just depressing.

Oh my God, what are they doing to Schrodinger's baby?

Count me among the people who were going "WTF? why is there a baby in a box in the first place?" That's like, the stupidest place to put a baby. It's like they can't even imagine that there's a human being carrying it around because the true analogy would be, "If you thought a WOMAN was pregnant, wouldn't you treat HER better?" or something like that. But, no. It's all about the babeez.

OR, they could have shown storks flying, with those little bundles of joy and made some reference to not shooting a stork out of the sky or something. "You wouldn't shoot a stork if it's carrying a baby would you?" ;)

And what if it's a baby with a bomb in it, like that episode of Dark Angel? Then Jack Bauer will have to torture Jessica Alba - but then who will keep the Silver Surfer from destroying the planet?

Now people know why I have no respect for anti-choicers. Anti-choicers treat women like property and not humans.

I thought the logical flow of the ad was going to be telling MEN to treat WOMEN gently and with respect, just in case they were pregnant. (Still sexist and messed up, but at least it made sense.)

What I really want to know is -- Why is that baby grazing?

I don't think "Why would anyone put a baby in a box?" is the point here.
Inside Catholic's point is that a fetus could end up as a fully-fledged human being (with rights!), so why not treat it like one right off the bat? Which is, in a way, a somewhat valid argument -- if you're (voluntarily) going to have the child you should take care of it, and yourself.

But Jessica is right -- for a video that obviously has something to do with women (we're the ones that have children, after all), why isn't the word "woman" mentioned at all? Are women really nothing more than baby-makers to them?

On a related note, is this supposed to be an anti-abortion video? Because they don't use the word "abortion" either.

I agree that the baby-in-a-box metaphor doesn't translate well to "a fetus is a person." The only thing the ad does effectively is make people ask themselves "wtf?" I actually have nothing else to add because the ad was just that stupid.

I really think that the baby-in-a-box ad is most effective at making people ask themselves "WTF?" Hmmm...I actually can't say much else about it because it was just that lame.

Hah! The special-moment music and the soft female voiceover are just too much. Wait, no, the slow-motion shot of the little white girl-baby in the grass at the end is just too much. Wait, no, the CGI baby-box-factory that starts with a cross on a bed--

*headdesk*

Anomrabbit, I know that wasn't the point of the video, but since the premise of its argument was absurd, that was what I came away with. I kind of felt that going in the direction of "WTF is a baby doing in a box??" spelled out how utterly irrelevant I thought the commercial was in the first place.

"And no babies conceived are women. Babies can be female, but women are adult female human beings."

Calling them "women" at such a young age reminds me of those idiots out there who go "you're a woman now!!!" to girls at menarche, arrange marriages for them years before they can afford to say no, etc.

The first impression I get from the "female fetuses are women" rhetoric is "so what position do you expect the grooms to fuck their fetal brides in?"

Actually, if certain people had abortions instead of carrying to term, we WOULDN'T find babies in boxes. Or dumpsters. Or gutters, front porches, parking lots, grocery stores, hospital drop-offs, forests, or alleyways. Etc.

I supposed "holy fucking christ, what is wrong with people" is also appropriate here.

You have to love anti-choicers who make no qualms about admitting that they don't think women are actual people.
As much as I hate that position, I almost wish that all anti-choicers were like that. It's much more honest than the ones who are all, "But abortion hurts women, we just want to protect women."

It seems like some fool was looking at a pre-packaged box and said, "Hey! it's a cross!" And then someone convinced them this idea was a good analogy.

I think the actual message this commercial is putting out is "BE CAREFUL: There's a small chance that a box contains a baby, so there's also a small chance that a fetus is a baby! So pretend it is, even though it's probably not!"

Should I be checking boxes for babies? I often chuck what I assume to be empty boxes down the stairs. Should I do a baby-search first?

Probably--they're sneaky little bastards, those babies. They could be anywhere!

Yeah, everyone should check their shoes before they put them on in case there's a baby in them.

For fuck's sake. This makes me really angry. If a fetus is a baby, then it doesn't need to be in my uterus any more.
Oh wait, what's that?
It DOES need to remain in my uterus?
I GUESS THAT MEANS IT'S NOT A FUCKING BABY YET.

(Sorry for the caps craziness, please return to your usual programmes)

Yeah, anorak-- If it's in the uterus, it's not a baby yet. Just like a baby isn't an adult yet.

It's a fetus. Or an embryo, if it's really early in the pregnancy.

And if you believe fetus=human being/person, go right ahead.

But it's not a baby.

I think the actual message this commercial is putting out is "BE CAREFUL: There's a small chance that a box contains a baby, so there's also a small chance that a fetus is a baby! So pretend it is, even though it's probably not!"

Should I be checking boxes for babies? I often chuck what I assume to be empty boxes down the stairs. Should I do a baby-search first?

I just thought it was kind of funny that these two posts were right next to each other. "It's so unlikely that you'd find a baby in a box." "Should I start looking for babies in boxes?" Tee-hee! But, exactly. There's such a slim chance of a baby being in a box in the box factory that the point that an embryo or fetus just might be a baby sounds completely absurd.

The conspiracy theorist in me suspects there's going to more "baby in box" stories in the media than usual . . . .

You know, I'm kinda liking the idea of 'baby in a box'. Think about it, if we got babies out of boxes then we wouldnt have to worry about abortion because we'd never be pregnant in the first place!

Ok, I know that was bad, but I just had to... lol.

On a more serious note, if a fetus is a baby, why do people say things like 'we have two children and one on the way' instead of 'we have three children'... doesn't 'one on the way' imply it isn't as important as children?

By way, has it occurred to anyone else that, uh, REAL boxes don't start off as a cross? They're like big sheets with slits in them...

That puts a whole new spin on My Box in a Box.

OMG Anorak and Basiorana... I have been dying to leave a little note on the windshields of cars with a message that says exactly that! I have seen a few bumper stickers around town saying "if it's not a baby, you're not pregnant." And I just want to smack those people and say... um... sorry, if it IS a baby, then you aren't pregnant. It's not a BABY till it comes out. If it's in your uterus, IT'S NOT A BABY. Hmmm... I think I'll get some bumper stickers printed out that say that, and slap them over the "if its not a baby..." ones.

I love how they call the fetus an "unborn child". Because that's not prejudicial at all.

I've heard the "if we're not sure whether a fetus is a person we should err on the side of treating it as a person" argument. But this box thing is just creepy--it reminds me of the "guard your diamond/hymen" campaign. It's disturbing to see female reproductive organs likened to inanimate objects.

I'm sorry, I don't feel like spending my whole life acting like Im pregnant. And as other people pointed out, if you think there's a baby in a box, your not just going to be nice to the box, you're going to check to see if there's a baby inside. You know, so you can live you're life without thinking about it...oh, wait, that would take away from my being a baby making machine...

How about this, insidecatholic?

"If you thought there was a small chance that there was a rabid squirrel hidden in a box, wouldn't you treat that box as though it had a rabid squirrel in it, just in case? Wouldn't you shoot the box with buck shot or beat it with a golf club just to be safe?

So, even if you think there's just a small chance that a Catholic Priest is a pedophile, shouldn't you beat him with a golf club, just in case?

Something to think about."

Makes just about as much sense to me.

If you think there's even a small chance that Pope Benedict might be a vampire, or even Satan himself, shouldn't you treat him is though he were?

Okay, the first thing I thought of while watching this was Pink Floyd's Another Brick in the Wall.

The uterus boxes (that is, me) are like the kiddies on the assembly line...going into the meat grinder.

So, Insidecatholic.com, I will reiterate: We Don't Need No Thought Control!

I think that this was a vital public service announcement prior to the After Thanksgiving Sales that will be next Friday.

Listen up, ladies, instead of shopping for meaningless crap this Friday at the pre-dawn sales, all women and men (maybe children 5 and up too) should take box-cutters and open all the merchandise held in boxes at the Walmart, Circuit City, Target, Kmart, Macy--heck, any mall retailer--Toys-R-Us and similar and find those hidden babies.

The Inside Catholic people want us to cut up boxes looking for babies. Babies in TV-boxes, toaster oven boxes, dish sets, laundry carts, inflatable mattress pad boxes, Tickle Me Elmo crates-- BABEEZ EVERYWHERE. Forget about the slashing prices, slash the boxes this Friday!!! Save the babeez!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm always baffled by the fact that pro-lifers insist upon showing me pictures of supposedly cute babies as some sort of "reasoning" as to why I should reproduce or at least agree with them.
I do NOT look at a baby and go "Awwww, it's cute! I want one! I must protect and love at the cost of my own life!"
I just don't. I don't want one. I don't think I'll ever want one, or want to be involved with one in any way. Call me "selfish" but I don't think a baby, an old person, a young person, ANYONE should have more worth than me in my own life decisions.

Wow, that was incredibly cheesey. Definitely up there with "Just in case there IS a god, shouldn't you be christian?"

Man, I wish I had been in their ad agency's creative meeting. Just to see all of the baby-in-a-taco, -honeypot, and -beaver concept sketches that got shot down.

Not that I want to start a death penalty debate, and I don't know how many anti-choicers are also pro-death penalty, but I just want to say this to them:

"Just in case criminals are people, don't you think you should obey God's commandment and not kill them? For your own sake... so you don't go to hell."

Just a thought...

If you think there's even a small chance that Pope Benedict might be a vampire, or even Satan himself, shouldn't you treat him is though he were?

If the Pope leaves the US with a stake through the heart, we know who to look at first ;)

Oh my god Peepers, that was friggin hilarious.

Hilaryp08: That should work in theory, but despite the ten commandments, God still seem to ask for a lot of stoning. And, if you broke the commandments, you could be killed for doing so, so the Christians could probably very easily counter it. Of course, we pro-choice people can bring up the times when God ordered his chosen people to go out and kill women and children and "rip up the women with child." :)

"That should work in theory, but despite the ten commandments, God still seem to ask for a lot of stoning. And, if you broke the commandments, you could be killed for doing so, so the Christians could probably very easily counter it. Of course, we pro-choice people can bring up the times when God ordered his chosen people to go out and kill women and children and 'rip up the women with child.' :)"

Hilarypo8: I don't see what point you're trying to make. Do we really need to bring the 10 Commandments into this? I'm a Catholic and even I think bringing theology/mythology into this discussion is redundant.

And FemiDancer: God doesn't ask for a lot of stoning...humans do. Whether you believe Jesus was a man or not, he did say "Let they who have not sinned throw the first stone." Which sounds like pretty good advice to me, unfortunately the fundits don't appear to understand the concept. Also, I'd like some clarification: You seem to equate anti-choicers with Christianity (and unfortunately most of them are) but you seem to suggest that pro-choicers are not Christians by stating "we pro-choicers can bring up the times God..." I believe in a Higher Power and I can do that same thing. The point?

Nightingale: I feel you. In fact, I don't even LIKE babies. I am repelled by them. I just imagine my resources (emotional, financial, social, etc)constantly being depleted by a child.
It's gotten to the point that my mother encourages me not to have children, and I grew up hearing, "I can't WAIT to be a grandma!!"

Hi Xana,
Since the video is from a group called "Inside Catholic," I don't think it's inappropriate to bring theology into the discussion. I also think that's where the tendency here to equate pro-lifers and Christians is coming from.

Hi hilaryp08,
I wanted to pipe in that according to my mother (uber-devout Catholic), there's a loophole in the church's stance on the death penalty: it's permissible if the death penalty is the only way to protect society from a dangerous individual. I'm not sure if that's in the catechism or if that's something JPII said. In any case, there's always the "but how can you compare *criminals* to innocent *babies*?" argument, which I hear much more often.

Hmm, I guess I did assume that the premise for the argument as to why you would treat the box so carefully in case there is a baby inside is because if you kill the baby, then you'll go to hell (my bias about Catholic guilt I guess). But, it sounds like you are supposed to treat the box so carefully because babies are just so darn cute!! (said with sarcasm...).

So, that might explain why I brought up the God argument. Again, I prefaced what I said with "I don't know how many anti-choicers are also pro-death penalty." Maybe I should have said "I don't know how many Catholic anti-choicers are also pro-death penalty."

AnnaSoror - that is a funny loophole. I wonder if that implies a basic distrust of the prison system?

it's permissible if the death penalty is the only way to protect society from a dangerous individual.

Well, there you go, then. Fetuses are dangerous to pregnant women. Look at what happens to women during pregnancy.

I noticed yesterday that the baby at the end is a white girl, and I've been pondering the race and gender issues behind that choice since then. Does it seem racist or sexist to anyone else to feature a little white girl as the ultimate "victim" and ideal child to "save" from being aborted?

I'm a bit of a comic book geek, and I've noticed that when a superhero is rescuing some random person from a burning building, it's invariably a little girl with pigtails, and that little girl is usually white as well. I just bought a Batman book this weekend that uses that paradigm.

"And I just want to smack those people and say... um... sorry, if it IS a baby, then you aren't pregnant."

nitpick: Either that or you are pregnant with something else (like maybe you got pregnant again within a year of giving birth).

"Since the video is from a group called 'Inside Catholic,' I don't think it's inappropriate to bring theology into the discussion. I also think that's where the tendency here to equate pro-lifers and Christians is coming from."

I'm not sure about the Orthodox denominations, and don't a whole bunch of Protestant denominations not forbid abortion? I'm not even Christian and I still know there's way more to Christianity than Catholicism.

I could just as easily say "even if you think there's a small chance women are free citizens, shouldn't you treat them like they are? You know, with individual rights and choices?"

Anti-choicers never fail to disturb me.

Scary people..

If anything, the video seems to promote the use of birth control.
"Keep babies out of the box factory!"

And Liza - right on.

Does it seem racist or sexist to anyone else to feature a little white girl as the ultimate "victim" and ideal child to "save" from being aborted?

Interestingly enough, we have a collection of pro-life billboards here in chicago that feature infants, all of which are white. And come to think of it, the majority of images the pro-life movement shows are of white fetuses and babies. It's interesting because the majority of pregnancies that end in abortion are for women of color.

As for the video itself...

Are we seriously going to compare a baby in a cardboard box to a pregnancy? I think the intention of this video was to dumb us all down. Who the fuck actually has such a simplistic idea of pregnancy like that?

box = womb?

If I found a baby in a box, I'd rip it open so the baby wouldn't suffocate to death. That doesn't exactly work the same way with wombs though. Bad analogy, lifers. :)

(i'm going to throw a bunch of stones at a bunch of birds...you will have to excuse me, i'm tired)

that video is disturbing. i'm saying that from a "recovering catholic" point of view.

the baby did make me go "aww", i had that feeling because i've become a mother recently.
so i guess i just have more questions, because is it women who already have childern that they are aiming at?
"you have one, why not another" was that one assembly line symbolic of ONE WOMANS LIFETIME?

its transparent as to how its trying to use the infant to guilt those thinking of aborting, and gather more "holy soldiers" to stop them lawfully from doing so.

the other debate is when is it a person.
for me, it wasnt untill halfway though my pregnancy that i decided she was real. and that was because i saw her move.

I DECIDED. and i have the right to decide. and i'm not greatful for that, because as far as i'm concerned its a given anyway.

pushing for everyone to agree to this "pro life" movement, while using fundementalist christian ideology shits me no end.
and doesn't hold a strong argument. (because to me they all seem crazy)

pro life?
who's life is it anyway?

they should be more specific, like pro "let nature take its course". in which case i'd expect them to also decline modern medicine and die at the ripe old age of 35.