So, initially they were ONLY going to lash the victim of a gang rape 90 times, but now they are doing it 200? I like how they fully admit that it was rape, and she is being punished for being raped.

And by "like" I mean so extremely disgusted I can't see straight.

My heart weeps for this woman and all women in Saudi Arabia.

But, hey, as long as they keep selling us oil, the U.S. will continue to support their government. *sigh*

Yeah, Wahhabism is as brutal as it gets. Take some (small) comfort in knowing that not all sects of Islam are so insanely fundamentalist.

Someday, Saudi Arabia will fall. Until then............

WHAT?

*vomits*

God damn mother fucking bastards. Whoever sentenced that woman, I hope someone fucks them in the ass with a chainsaw.

Is there anything we can do? I can't imagine pressuring out governments to get involved will do much-although I'm still going to email my MP.

Well, what do you expect from a country where the religious police thinks it's perfectly fine to let 15 schoolgirls burn to death in 2002 because they weren't veiled? They wouldn't let firefighters in to rescue the girls from their burning school because the girls weren't properly dressed. Ick, ick, ick.

Takes victim blaming to a whole new level.

Can I sign off this planet please?

you know I shouldn't be shocked anymore, but I am. Wouldn't this type of injustice drive someone to suicide? I know that if I were to be punished for being a victim like the woman in this situation, my spirit would be broken and I'd be looking for a razor. I honestly don't know how women endure it there.

My uncle regularly goes to Saudi Arabia. He travels with a team of people from Raytheon. Some of the team are women and they have to veil up or not go. Ugh.

But here's something that lets you know they're in the fucking dark ages: One time my Uncle got an emergency call that told him he had to be in Saudi the next day because one of the mainframes was inoperable. So he does the 24 hour trip, goes to fix what he thinks is going to be a week-long project and the damn mainframe isn't plugged in.

That should give you an idea of the IQ of the males over there.

Also, every day in the public square they would do their punishments. It's ALL public and you can read in the local paper who's going to get lashed or their hands cut off. Disgusting.

My uncle regularly goes to Saudi Arabia. He travels with a team of people from Raytheon. Some of the team are women and they have to veil up or not go. Ugh.

But here's something that lets you know they're in the fucking dark ages: One time my Uncle got an emergency call that told him he had to be in Saudi the next day because one of the mainframes was inoperable. So he does the 24 hour trip, goes to fix what he thinks is going to be a week-long project and the damn mainframe isn't plugged in.

That should give you an idea of the IQ of the males over there.

Also, every day in the public square they would do their punishments. It's ALL public and you can read in the local paper who's going to get lashed or their hands cut off. Disgusting.

My uncle regularly goes to Saudi Arabia. He travels with a team of people from Raytheon. Some of the team are women and they have to veil up or not go. Ugh.

But here's something that lets you know they're in the fucking dark ages: One time my Uncle got an emergency call that told him he had to be in Saudi the next day because one of the mainframes was inoperable. So he does the 24 hour trip, goes to fix what he thinks is going to be a week-long project and the damn mainframe isn't plugged in.

That should give you an idea of the IQ of the males over there.

Also, every day in the public square they would do their punishments. It's ALL public and you can read in the local paper who's going to get lashed or their hands cut off. Disgusting.

Diana Boston, say what you will about the sickeningly twisted interpretation of Islam and the unforgiving enforcement of Islamic law, but I don't think that an anecdotal story about a guy forgetting to plug in a mainframe is really telling about the average intelligence of a man in Saudi Arabia.

It's not stupidity that's leading Saudi Arabia back into the Dark Ages, it's Wahhabism.

Wahhabism and good old-fashioned misogyny.

I cannot BELIEVE this. HOW can our governments do business with Saudi? I mean, it really, truly is the worst place in the world to be a woman. Other than immediate war zones like Darfur (and not to minimise those in any way) - this is the worst place were misogyny is rationalised, sanctioned, and legal.

I would never, ever go there. Not in a million years. I found Morocco tough enough, and that's feminist paradise compared to Saudi.

ARGH. This stuff makes me SO ANGRY. And I know that there are many people in Saudi who don't want things to be like this, and are working for change, and that is great, and I don't for a minute think that every Saudi person is a misogynist or anything like that. But SHIT. How can we do something about this? That poor woman.

"Horrifying" is all I can think.

|sarcasm| But Saddam was a much more brutal dictator than the ENTIRE HOUSE OF SAUD. Right?|/sarcasm|

Sharia and Juche together have created a dark, dystopic world for all people their influence, especially women.

The extent of the Misogyny is distrubing.
I hope none of you read the comments on that site.... I don't know why I do that to myself.

Re: Saddam...I seem to recall reading, in the 90s, that Iraq was actually the most (barring israel) progressive regime, women's liberation-wise, in the middle east. Not that that's saying much, but...*shrug*

Religion has to pass a certain litmus test with me to be morally justifiable. Kinda like a doctor, "first of all, do no harm." As practiced in Saudi Arabia, islam does not pass that test. Heck, as practiced in every country I know of where it's used as the basis of law.

Nikita...if yu hadn't mentioned the comments I likely would never have read them. *cries* Why do I do this to myself?

I realize I may have come off anti-islam in that last post. I'm not.

Not anymore than I'm anti-any subsect of any major religion that interferes with basic, common-sense human rights. Every religion has it's bad side, I'm afraid. Especially those that dominate an entire society, to the entent of silencing (by law or simply by shame) naysayers.

Anyone else afraid of the US going in that direction with Christianity?

But! But! George Bush is friends with the Saudi Arabian royal family!!! Surely he would never be friendly with the leaders of such an evil regime. Well, at least they don't support terrorists.........oh wait.

But! But! George Bush is friends with the Saudi Arabian royal family!!! Surely he would never be friendly with the leaders of such an evil regime. Well, at least they don't support terrorists.........oh wait.

It's so gross.

The is awful. Absolutely awful.

You want to know what else is awful? Almost every time I read the comments following an article/entry regarding rape - whether it is on a feminist website or not - a commenter writes that the rapist or the judge or the members of the jury should be raped in punishment for their actions or decisions, i.e. gothchiq's comment "Whoever sentenced that woman, I hope someone fucks them in the ass with a chainsaw."

Promoting rape as a way to show your outrage for rape. Cute.

I read some of the comments. I'm not sure which is worse, the rape apologists, or the nutjobs who think every Muslim in the world agrees with the verdict.

*wtf* seriously, wtf?!?!?! i've been to saudi once and must admit it was a culture shock but thats gota be the worst case i have heard of!
theres been a bit of a discussion about the comments here and i think they have been fair-although i would like to say to nick that your post comes off as extremely arrogant. unless you know the in's and outs of every religion, its not fair to just generalise. "Every religion has it's bad side, I'm afraid. Especially those that dominate an entire society, to the entent of silencing (by law or simply by shame) naysayers." i am not saying religion is without fault all i'm saying just because a country claims to be following sharia does'nt mean it is. religion does not dictate, people do. believe me, if they were following islam in this case that woman would have been compensated, not locked up and lashed! and also, in crimes against women comitted by men in islamic law-the penalty is death. whether everyone agrees with these kinds of laws is up to debate.

Alright, here's another walk the walk moment for the feminist movement. No more petrodollars, no more autocratic regimes. So where are the gas boycotts in the name of middle-east women? Where are the make-up boycotts, with their heavy reliance on petroleum? Even the electricity that is powering the computer that you are posting from is funding this Saudi government's treatment of rape victims.

Enough with the "this is so fucked-up" posts. Where are the protests?

How nice for you to be taking an interest in getting involved, Equity. The Feminist Majority Foundation is doing work on global rights for women:
http://feminist.org/Global/

Will I be seeing your name on the donation lists?

The true face of Islam aka The Religion of Peace (TM).

Umm...Sarah, you are very mistaken. The rapists might get the death penalty provided the woman was able to get four upstanding male muslims to testify on her behalf. This is usually hard since most people don't go around publicly committing rape. Also, since the woman in this case has shown that she is of a low character, what with traveling together with unmarried males and all, they would probably be granted leniency even if she was able to produce the aforementioned four upstanding male muslims.

Sorry about the triple post, but I just learnt that the victim was a Shiite in which case I think the court must be considered progressive for punishing the rapists at all.

Wait, so is she being punished because the rapists got into the car and raped her, or because she was sitting in the car with some guy and THEN the rapists got into the car and raped her?

One's fucked up, but the other is like ten levels of fucked up because it's not like she WANTED them to come into the car!

Unless she was riding in the car with the rapists. In which case, also ten levels of fucked up.

Farhat: The Koran says it can alternatively be eight upstanding female Muslims, doesn't it? Not that that's not even harder to find-- I'm just curious as to if Saudi Arabia's ignoring that part. And as for the anti-Muslim note, the blame for this lies with the government and the culture, not the religion.

Honestly, I'm normally very tolerant of other cultures, of gender roles, religious customs, etc, but getting rid of Sharia Law, IMO, is something worth dying for-- and MUCH more so than oil or revenge.

Sarah: yeah, I did come off as a bit more arrogant (and less clear) than I had intended. It's hard to talk about religious belief, something that sounds inherently arrogant to anyone who doesn't share the exact same belief, without sounding arrogant. In my mind, though, singeling out on religious belief without acknowledging the dark side of all of them (including atheism) would be even more arrogant. :/

That said, I stand by my statement. Every religion has it's bad side. At the very least there will always be someone who is willing to exploit it to their own selfish desires. That's no less true than saying every society has it's bad side.

And the second part is even more true. If a single religious subsect dominates a society to the point where naysayers are silenced then that, in and of itself, even if it's the religion of happy puppys and freedom, *is* a bad side.

So it kinda comes down to the old gun argument, and for the life of me I don't know the answer. What kills people? Guns or a few bad apples with guns? Who oppresses people? Easily exploitable religious doctrines, or the bigots who exploit them?

I'd like to take a moment to defend myself here preemptively. I am, as a standard, quite tolerant of different customs, religious believes and practices, and strange viewpoints.

That is, until they start negatively affecting the dignity, equality, and basic human rights of others.

I also do not identify all practitioners of a specific religious belief with the ultra-conservative sects. However, when I see an ultra-conservative sect in action, violating that one precept above, I no longer have any desire, nor need, to be tolerant of them. Personally, I don't think this makes me any less of a liberal, or a feminist, or whatever else I am.

Won't 200 lashes kill her? I don't know enough about it, thank God, but I'd always thought that much whipping would kill a person by flaying them alive.

Am I wrong?

Christina: It might not, depending on the force used and her physical condition-- but if it does, do you really think the government officials will care?

Christina, you're almost certainly right. However, in countries like this they do not give two hoots about whether or not the punishment is lethal. They give the order, and if they die in the process, they die in the process. That's just the way of the land over there.

And for those who think this is just Saudi Arabia, take it from a guy who's been to Jordan (one of the most tolerant of the Muslim Middle Eastern nations): it's bad across the board. One stat I came across says up to 70% of women in prison in Pakistan are there for the crime of being raped, and that this is standard in nearly every country in the region. Honor killings, public stonings, all that great medieval hate is alive and well today in every country in the region with the exception of Israel.

I just echo the same statement that others have made: tolerance is a virtue, but tolerance of intolerable acts such as these is taking a virtue to an extreme fault. Whether it's Islam itself that's oppressing women, or the governments using radical Islam to subjugate hundreds of millions (and IMO it's a bit of both), these kinds of thing are unacceptable. They're a throwback to times humanity should have no desire to regress to.

Of course it's not just women, it's also Christians, Jews, and homosexuals, who are probably under the most pressure not to reveal their sexuality, as it carries the death penalty in much if not all of the region. One of my weirdest experiences in Israel was seeing Arab men in Israel who absolutely loved the most hated nation in the Middle East because they were able to be openly gay in Israeli society.

It's not just Wahhabiism, it's radical Sharia of both the Shiite and Sunni variety, and until the world in general (not just us) stops needing oil, this won' change. Even if we stopped giving them oil revenue China and India as well as other developing nations would pay for the petroleum, and the cruelty would continue. Still, these nations have no right to decry human rights abuses when they are some of the most blatant and most terrible abusers in the world.

Sorry for the rant, but this kind of thing just pisses me off. Sometimes I hear about how women fit well in Islamic society, or how it's not a huge issue, and then I remember being in Jordan, a supposedly moderate country, and seeing women forced to wear the burka in 120 degree heat. Stuff like this is the reason why the Dark Ages are known as dark. Scarily enough, Sharia seems to be on the rise in nearly every Western country. There are calls for Sharia by many Muslim immigrants in European nations where they have failed to integrate well.

All you wonderful people who are bending over and spreading their asscheeks to excuse Islam over this, this is the Islamic culture codified in their holy book. All Islamic countries follow this, in a more or less similar fashion. The only exceptions are some in the far east like Indonesia where Islam has been meliorated by contact with Hinduism but there are strong movements to take it back to its Arabic roots. The culture vs religion debate is worthless here because in Islam its one and the same.

Farhat: Westernized, modernized Muslims are a bit more like Westernized, modernized Christians-- it's just the culture of the Middle East that turns Islam into a monster. A code of law based on Christian or Jewish holy law would be about as bad about punishing non-adherents, etc. I mean, look at Europe in the Dark Ages, it was based on Christian doctrine and it was a hellhole.

The people there could be Christian, Jewish, heck, atheist and they would still find ways to use the guise of religion or "science" to oppress women and non-adherents and all who oppose them. The culture and religion are intertwined, yes, but that does not mean they are identical, or that Islam is any worse than any other religion would be if it was given control over politics.

Holy crap. I see what the guest blogger at Feministe last week was saying when she wrote about how Muslim women can be reluctant to criticise misogyny perpetuated in the name of their faith, because bigoted asshats leap on it and use it as a stick to beat all Islam, everywhere, with.

Some of the above commenters need to get a fucking grip. This disgraceful situation occurred because OUR governments have cheerfully sanctioned it, and because of some seriously fucked-up cultural shit. Get over the racist Muslim-bashing. Blame Saudi, not several million of their co-religionists.

Aah, argument 2. Xianity is just as bad. Complete red herring. And anyway we've managed to neuter Xianity. Shouldn't we do the same with Islam rather than repeat stuff like "Mohammed was a feminist"?

And yes, Islam is worse than many other religions which have had control over politics. I don't know why even people try to debate this but while all religions have their negative points few go as bad as Islam when it comes to completely marginalizing the views of women and anyone who is a nonmuslim.

Basiorama. If those feminists can't criticize their religion's bad practices than they are complicit in it. Also, I don't think I see muslims anywhere at all speaking out against this travesty. Unlike, say, all the riots we saw and the nuns raped over a few fucking cartoons. Also, I believe you'll have some cite of OUR government sanctioning this? You will, won't you? You wouldn't have pulled that out of your ass now.

I cannot believe that we have to have this conversation yet again. I feel like we just did this.

Take a look back at the status of women and Jews in Christian countries over the past several years and then get back to me. When Jews were being burned in York they lived comparatively reasonable lives under the Ottoman Empire.

Do you have actual evidence for these assertions? Not just that Islamic theocracy is bad, but that it's worse than other theocracies.

Farhat: I suggest that you read "No god but God" by Reza Aslan. He examines the idea that Islam is currently going through a reformation, very much like the Christian Reformation.

Christianity and Judaism do have a history of oppressing women. If you have a Bible handy, read Deuteronomy 22:23-28, and then tell me that these religions don't have some skeletons in their closets concerning how they treat rape victims.

The Christian Reformation was catapulted into progression because the Bible was translated from Latin, which only the very well educated understood. All of a sudden, the lay man could read the scriptures of his religion, and interpret them for himself. Much of the same thing is currently happening in Islam. The Quran is being translated into every language in the world, and people are finally able to read the words in a language that they can understand. Before now, Muslims just had to take their cleric's word over what the Quran said. The extreme religious governments that we are now seeing is the result of fundamentalists not wanting things to change. So they are manipulating their religion's laws in order to smoke out any dissent, and any person who would dare be slightly doubtful or liberal in their beliefs.

Can we get back to talking about how fucking terrible this is?

Is this why we don't talk about Saudi as much as we should? Because the conversation gets co-opted by racist asshats?

"Is this why we don't talk about Saudi as much as we should? Because the conversation gets co-opted by racist asshats?"

Probably.

I agree, I think we should focus on how horrible this is, and question why our government lets it go by unnoticed.

I understand education is kind of bad in the US but I'd like to point out that Islam is not a race under any racial classification that I've seen. If we look at phylogenetic studies, most people in the middle east are pretty damn close to Caucasians, so close that there is hardly any discernible difference genetically.

It isn't just the oil companies....McDonalds, Burger King and all the other fast food businesses are in SA, as is Coach and Tiffany & Co. They don't seem to have a problem doing business there but feminists could make it a problem if we turned the screws tight enough. I don't know if boycotts would help but I remember the outcry over South Afdrica's apartheid and the results that followed. Just my 2 cents.

check this out:

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/webspecials02/saudiarabia/day4/story2.shtml

Can we get back to talking about how fucking terrible this is?

I think we were? I mean, don't get me wrong, I agree with you that farhat takes the muslim angle way to damn far...

But is it really accurate to discuss this level of oppression without discussing it from all possible angles and causes?

It wouldn't be complete to talk about anti-choicers without bringing up the influence of the insane, ultra-conservative christian sects that back it...and similarly, it seems disengenious to discuss middle eastern oppression of women without discussing the influence of the insane, ultra-conservative muslim sects that back it...

I'm just saying that giving the religion a complete pass, and pulling the "you're a racist" card against anyone who doesn't, doesn't seem particularly constructive to me for discourse on the subject. Of course, if your comments were completely directed at farhat, I'd be more understanding, but they seemed to be aimed at "racist asshats" (plural).

Farhat: charming generalisation there about the nature of US schooling. Sadly it doesn't apply as I am not American, but your US-centric bias is both telling and unsurprising.

Islam is not a race. These statements however, made by you, are racist:

"The true face of Islam"

"this is the Islamic culture codified in their holy book. All Islamic countries follow this"

"The culture vs religion debate is worthless here because in Islam its one and the same."

"Islam is worse than many other religions"

"I don't know why even people try to debate this but while all religions have their negative points few go as bad as Islam when it comes to completely marginalizing the views of women and anyone who is a nonmuslim."

"I don't think I see muslims anywhere at all speaking out against this travesty."

Go fuck yourself, racist.

Nick, the fact is that anti-Muslim bullshit is a serious stumbling block to discussing stuff like this. It's a problem we need to deal with.

I'm guessing you feel like this hits kinda close to the bone, because right after your first post, you pointed out that what you'd said 'sounded like you were anti-Islam'. Yeah. It did. Good on ya for realising it, but like I said before, the way discussions like this quickly turn into a stick to beat all of Islam with is a) racist and b) in no way helpful.

Is this woman's case waaaay more troubling than Farhat's racism? Hell yes. But a) Farhat (or people who think like him/her) is a major block to us doing anything about cases like this, b) Farhat's racism is being used to prop up other human rights abuses like the war in Iraq and c) I can do something about Farhat's racism, right now. So I will.

(Incidentally I stand by my use of the plural in 'racist asshats'. Though I was speaking in generalities, ie beyond this one thread, more people than Farhat made anti-Islam comments).

Dinogirl,

Let me say I agree with you with regards to farhat. His approach is the verbal equivalent of hunting for food with tac-nukes. Ultimately harmful to himself, his target, and everyone around them.

Yet I suppose I feel somewhat similarly to you. I see too many feminist causes injuring their ultimate goal by being too accepting or inclusive of structures that are set up to keep them down. I sometimes feel like giving religion (oh-so-patriarchal in many cases) in general a free pass hurts our cause, ultimately.

Take anti-choicers in the US. They are entirely backed, fiscally and morally, by some of the worst kind of self-righteous Christians. When I discuss anti-choice, I'm going to discuss things like "seperation of church and state" and "religious equality" and "not enforcing your crazy beliefs on others." And I'm going to blame the *specific* churches and Christian institutions that continue to reinforce this behavior for it.

While doing so, I'm going to keep in mind that my parents, both of whom went on the million woman march, and both of whom are probably *more* liberal than I am, are self identified and faithful Christians. And that the faith as a whole and at it's most basic tenants is a positive influence on many people.

Islam is exactly the same. Its basic tenants are laudable, and a good set of rules for life. But again, when I discuss the wrongs done to women in the middle east, I'm going to discuss Sharia law, I'm going to discuss clergy-as-judge, and I'm going to discuss the strong influence of ultra-conservative muslim sects in perpetuating the status-quo.

That said, I think we agree on all points. Extremist asshats like farhat are bad. Extremist asshats like Saudi religo-government is bad. Tolerating either...is bad. We just have a different focus at the moment.

Dinogirl: You keep repeating that word racist, I don't think it means what you think it means. While I may be an asshat, for some definition of asshat, you need to show racism or retract the claim. I have made ZERO comments regarding race anywhere in my comments. Also, I apologize for assuming you were american. I am sorry that education isn't very good wherever you are either.

Nick: Sharia is a basic tenet of Islam. No Islamic scholar denies that. Among other things that are consistent among all major interpretations are death for apostates (I am one), death for adultery (women are the ones primarily affected here given how it is proved), death for homosexuality, women's testimony half that of men, etc. I don't see why people find so many reasons to excuse a system that oppresses so many.

Also, forgotten among all this is that this woman is at extremely high risk of being killed for honour of her family if she somehow manages to survive the 200 lashes. The jail sentence may actually help in extending her life.

"If those feminists can't criticize their religion's bad practices than they are complicit in it."

Many of them DO criticize the bad practices of other Muslims. At great personal risk. They simply practice a different form of Islam.

I see very little difference between Islam now and Christianity in the Dark Ages except for technology. When Europe's government was essentially run by the church, you could be killed for being a heathen or heretic. Same as the Middle East. You could be burned as a witch in some places if you violated the norm for your gender. Similar.

Also, perhaps the term isn't "racist," but you are being anti-Islamic. Yes, the religion has many flaws in it's ancient text. No, it should not be used as a basis of a modern government. But neither should any other religions. The problem is with the fact that the government is a theocracy and the religious leaders refuse to allow the religion to evolve naturally into a more modern one.

There can be an enormous amount of evil in almost all religion, which is WHY the separation of church and state is so crucial. If the government did not impose religious laws on it's citizens, punished them for following cruel religious tenets (like honor killing), and provided good, fair education then Islam would being to branch into more modern sects and life there would improve drastically. Unfortunately, to do that we would need to topple the current regime and impose a new one that is just, and Saudi Arabia is our friend...

If you can judge someone by the company they keep, what does it say about the US that Saudi Arabia is an ally?

nick i certainly appreciate your view. also i hope i did not give the impression that just because i follow a religion i believe it to be all smiles and kisses. i do believe that the quar'an has paragraphs that can be interpreted in different ways and i believe its perposely done to reveal the intention of the readers heart-they can use it for bad or good. i do agree with your post up to a point "If a single religious subsect dominates a society to the point where naysayers are silenced then that, in and of itself, even if it's the religion of happy puppys and freedom, *is* a bad side." i agree with that-but what i'm saying is that people do that, not books. and i say this because not all muslims think this way and we all read the same book.

i know its controversal to say this but, as a practising muslim, i do not believe sharia law should be carried out.

Basiorama:
Many of them DO criticize the bad practices of other Muslims. At great personal risk. They simply practice a different form of Islam.

I applaud that. I understand the personal risks that many of them undertake. What I said was "if they don't criticize these practices for fear of people jumping on Islam, then they are complicit". If they are afraid of harm coming to them, then they are justified in holding back. Everybody is allowed to decide how much risk they want to take in their life.

Also, perhaps the term isn't "racist," but you are being anti-Islamic.

Great, you get it. English has a large vocabulary which allows us to use different words to describe different viewpoints. To use racist to describe anti-Islamic is to simply engage in emotionalism so you can get people to jump in with you so they don't appear racist. I have no issues with being called anti-Islamic, or anti-religion in general for that matter.

While US has propped the House of Saud, I seriously don't see why the situation would be any different had US not propped them. US hasn't propped Pakistan's NWFP, or Sudan, or post-Shah Iran but they are still hellholes. While I am not in favor of US policies in that region, the problems their go far deeper and far more back in time than US interference there or even the existence of US.

farhat-it really wouldnt matter what i say as you've made your opinion very obvious. but i must take you up with one point. "The culture vs religion debate is worthless here because in Islam its one and the same."

Islam had to explicitly say that burying your daughters alive is a grevious sin. this is because this was the practise in saudi at the time. a woman can divorce a man after 6 months on the basis that he does not sexually satisfy her and islam had to explicitly say that sexual pleasure for a woman is as important as a mans and that for him to deny her this is a grevious sin. could you imaging this in the middle east? its amazing how you ignore these beliefs about women in islam. like i've said before i do not believe islam to be perfect but middle eastern culture and islam are not the same thing.

farhat-it really wouldnt matter what i say as you've made your opinion very obvious. but i must take you up with one point. "The culture vs religion debate is worthless here because in Islam its one and the same."

Islam had to explicitly say that burying your daughters alive is a grevious sin. this is because this was the practise in saudi at the time. a woman can divorce a man after 6 months on the basis that he does not sexually satisfy her and islam had to explicitly say that sexual pleasure for a woman is as important as a mans and that for him to deny her this is a grevious sin. could you imaging this in the middle east? its amazing how you ignore these beliefs about women in islam. like i've said before i do not believe islam to be perfect but middle eastern culture and islam are not the same thing.

The culture vs religion debate is worthless here because in Islam its one and the same.

Oh, right, obviously. That's why Muslims worldwide have the same culture, whether they be in China, Nigeria, England, or Saudi Arabia.

Please. That's just patently untrue.

"The rapists might get the death penalty provided the woman was able to get four upstanding male muslims to testify on her behalf. This is usually hard since most people don't go around publicly committing rape"

uummm....wer'nt the men sent to prison because they gang raped her? isnt that what is said in the title post?

apologies for the double post. i donno why that happened.

Compared to medieval Christianity and its other predecessors, Islam can certainly be viewed as an improvement. However, modern Islam is basically the same as medieval Islam, while modern Christianity has been significantly defanged compared to its medieval counterpart.

In the past 400 years, cultures have changed. Things that were once acceptable are now considered horrors. Humanity has actually made moral progress in addition to its technological and economic progress. Religious texts tend to reflect the morality of the time in which they were written; Many Christians and Jews have gotten around this problem mostly by ignoring it (remember, God hates shrimp: http://godhatesshrimp.com/) but the practice of Islam is still largely stuck in the Dark Ages. (To be fair, there are lots of very scary Christians around, too. They just don't have as much power.)

Further reading:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060207_reality_islam/

(I could make some quip about Bush having invaded the wrong country, but that would be in poor taste.)

English has a large vocabulary which allows us to use different words to describe different viewpoints. To use racist to describe anti-Islamic is to simply engage in emotionalism so you can get people to jump in with you so they don't appear racist.

Anti-Islamicist is indeed a good description of your hate, but since it's not in common usage (like, say, anti-semitic is) I opted for an equally suitable term. 'Racist' is the appropriate adjective to use in this case. The statements I catalogued above are racist. The same comments made about Judaism would be anti-Semitic, AND RACIST. See? It's not an either/or. But thanks for playing.

You couldn't give a crap about this woman - your only interest in this case is to prop up your hatred. Fuck off.

(BTW - Nick, I think we are very much in agreement, and certainly we need to be taking a look at every aspect of society that contributes to it, and religion by no means gets a free pass. But I hesitate to blame it all on Islam, because what's happened in this case - blaming a woman for putting herself in a position to be raped - is a mindset that is ALL too common here in the West too. I'm just afraid that a lot of the Islam-blaming 'other's the problem, turning it into something 'they' do 'over there'. When in reality we face this shit here too - it's a HUMAN problem, is I guess what I'm saying.)

I was so sickened by this that this morning I brought it up in the Victimology class I'm taking. One of the guys in the class says, "She was breaking the law so she should be punished. That's their culture. Who are we to judge?"

Like dinogirl says, it's a human problem.

It's statements like that, Orual, that make me sick. Is Western society perfect in regards to the rights of women? Absolutely not. Does that mean we can't call a lot of these Sharia rules abhorrent? Absolutely not.

"Who are we to judge?" seems to be the anthem of apologists who think that culture can somehow excuse human rights abuses. Just because it's their culture doesn't mean it isn't evil. Much of human culture has been evil in the past, so why is it that modern culture would be any different?

Umm....more on the trolls in a second, but let's get back to the action part. I happen to be lucky enough to be represented by Keith Ellison, who is not only a Muslim but a huge supporter of women's rights. I just wrote him a letter asking if he can do anything and asking if he or his staffers have any advice on what ordinary citizens can do about Saudi Arabia. I'll let y'all know what the response is -- if you're in Minnesota's Fifth District or want to write him anyhow, contact info is here.

Next, WTF, DaveNJ? Do you see anybody here saying that what the Saudi government did is NOT abhorrent? On the contrary, it's people like YOU and farhat who seem not to care, given how you're intentionally deflecting the conversation away from what we can do by making inflammatory comments, which you know damn well will derail the conversation into talking about something other than action. I also think it's interesting how Islamophobes get all bent out of shape every time somebody points out that Western culture is also misogynist. Sure, it's not as misogynist as most Middle Eastern countries, but that doesn't mean we should ignore our own misogyny and not take into account how it could cripple our efforts to tackle misogyny in other cultures. In fact, I think that's a central reason WHY Western countries have a less-than-stellar track record when it comes to ending misogyny and human rights abuses -- we're no paragon of human rights and egalitarianism ourselves, and therefore our approaches will always contain flaws.

With that said, our imperfections don't mean we shouldn't act; it just means that we have to keep our own shortcomings in mind, and not be surprised when Muslim countries might not take seriously a country that can barely get its own rapists into a courtroom even when we have rape kit evidence and several witnesses. I also think that arguments like Dave's are typical of misogynists -- it's almost a relief to them when they hear about horrible things in other cultures, because it diverts attention from their own misogyny and makes them feel just that little bit less misogynist and morally superior.

Oh, and equityforbothgenders? Way to be a condescending dick who assumes you know everything about people's lifestyles. I don't own a car, never have, and I always encourage people to use buses, bikes or walk. In fact, just this summer I got fucking BEAT UP AND MUGGED while waiting for a bus. Did I go out and buy a car afterwards? Hell no. I still use the bus. So, I'm willing to go to the hospital if it means helping the environment and not giving money to the Saudi government, and I would do it again. What are YOU doing, or does being self-deified automatically disqualify you from such silliness as walking YOUR walk?

*sigh* The comments about me simply prove my point: liberals tend to defend Islam instead of calling it out. I am an ex-Muslim and have met with sympathy only from right-wing nut-jobs; progressives simply defend Islam to me. Progressives perhaps don't realize what's at stake: freedom. People like me, i.e. those that call out Islam and Muslims on their blatant human rights violations, have been forced into silence, threatened, and even killed.

Trust me, I know what Islam is. I believed in it wholeheartedly, and, as such, cheerfully wore the veil and abstained from contact with members of the opposite sex.

Viewed from an objective perspective, Islam is pretty misogynistic. The entire Quran is written to a male audience, as are the vast majority of the Hadith. Whether or not the rape sentence is Islamically sound is besides the point, which is that embedded in Islam is a very anti-woman vein.

All of the following were cited to me by various Islamic authorities, from local mosque leaders to well-known scholars. It's quite easy to find the sources for all of these, as well (and by sources I don't mean Daniel Pipes's homepage or something).

Examples:
A Muslim marriage is called a Nikkah, which simply means contract. The basic rules of it are that a wife is to be constantly sexually available to her husband, regardless of how she feels about it, and a husband is obliged to provide for her financially; essentially, it's contractual prostitution in which a woman signs away her right to claim marital rape. Anything else in the contract is not required (although the contracts tend to be about more than sexual availability and financial support).

A virgin's silence in response to a proposal is considered her consent. If she's too frightened, cowed, or choked up to speak out, too bad, she's being wed anyway. A man may marry off his prepubescent daughter to one of his friends.

A husband may beat his wife after reprimanding her and withholding sex as means of discipline, since a husband is responsible for his wife's religious practice (or neglect of religious practice).

Men can have sex with their slave-girls, with captives of war, or with non-Muslim women. Any punishment for rape is mainly doled out as consolation/compensation for a girl's lost "purity," something that would factor into her marriage prospects ever after.

If a man is aroused by a woman's ornaments, perfume, or voice (even if she hadn't intended for him to be so seduced), she is considered an adulteress.

According to Muhammad's condescending sayings, women are crooked ribs who will break if you try to "fix" them. Women are also deficient in their faith because they cannot fast or pray whilst menstruating.

Whoops, that should read "the comments above me."

Doug S: "modern Islam is basically the same as medieval Islam" Actually, no, it's not. In medieval times, Islam was a religion of science and learning. They were at their peak, and encouraged free thought (to an extent) and scientific advancement. Many of their leaders were known for benevolence that was unheard of to Christians at the time.

They've backslid, yes. But they aren't the same.

Heina: We defend Islam, not these practices. I defend the right of evangelical Christianity to exist, and people to worship it, but when they infringe on the rights of others I say it is time to put a stop to that infringement.

"The entire Quran is written to a male audience" -- as is the Bible, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, and pretty much every religious text written before the 1900's. That was the culture at the time it was written. Most religions are misogynistic, because most of human history was misogynistic-- but religions can be see through different eyes. Blame the cultures, not the religion, unless you are prepared to call foul on every religion ever created an become a secular humanist, in which case, fine, more power to you. But there is no perfect religion and all the Abarhamic religions are about equally bad, it's just that the wording of the Islam texts make their problems more apparent.

Also, the menstruation = evil is a universal constant in Abrahamic religions, as is the "women are ultimately the cause of problems in the world" idea. Muhammad was a little more up-front and didn't use so many metaphors and stories, but he was saying the same thing as every other religion before him.

Heina: As a fellow apostate I can well empathize with your situation. And it horribly sucks when your options are aligning with right-wing ideologues who intentions are less than honourable in supporting you but at least they are on your side, for now, vs left-wing ideologues who would provide moral support to people who would gladly slit your throat while claiming to be standing up for your rights and freedoms.

Heina: As a fellow apostate I can well empathize with your situation. And it horribly sucks when your options are aligning with right-wing ideologues who intentions are less than honourable in supporting you but at least they are on your side, for now, vs left-wing ideologues who would provide moral support to people who would gladly slit your throat while claiming to be standing up for your rights and freedoms.

Though I'd add that I'm seeing more and more liberals who are finally tired of being called "Islamophobic" every time they call out a bad practice in Islam. I think the riots and murders for cartoons was a turning point for many people I know personally.

Anti-Islamicist is indeed a good description of your hate, but since it's not in common usage (like, say, anti-semitic is) I opted for an equally suitable term. 'Racist' is the appropriate adjective to use in this case.

I guess people on this website are not bright enough to understand compound multisyllabic words lie anti-Islamic so you've to use smaller words like racist to rouse them.

You couldn't give a crap about this woman - your only interest in this case is to prop up your hatred. Fuck off.

I guess you know the above from your awesome remote mind reading abilities. Do you also moonlight as Ms. Cleo?

Farhat, it was just last weekend that another poster was defending his own racism and going around calling those who disagreed with him idiotic and ridiculous. He was banned for being an abusive poster. If you want to contribute to the discussion, do so. If you want to continue to post abusive comments that do not contribute to any discussion and only defend yourself by calling others morons, then you'll be gone by Monday.

Kissmypineapple: the only poster I've posted anything ad hominem against is dinogirl. I did so in response to her (going by the nick) because after posting a couple of times rationally to her, though admittedly snarkily, I could see that it wasn't going to lead anywhere. If I've called anyone a moron, explicitly of implicitly (other than dinogirl) I apologize and take that back.

...explicitly or implicitly...

I'm another apostate from Islam and I've been called racist as well, which to me sounds patently absurd.

I'm frequently disappointed in the lack of liberal realism when it comes to issues of religion -- it's asinine to be tolerant of intolerance.

It's a little flabbergasting to see y'all so appalled that a victim is being further punished by the Saudis, and yet not notice that you are yourselves quite comfortable with telling more victims of Islam to "fuck off." Pretty.

Speaking of Saudi Arabia, I lived there for 18 years and was held in a religious prison for 3 hours with 3 of my other girlfriends. The reason? 3 cars full of men were following us since the fucking McDonalds employee kicked us out and our driver (you can't travel without a driver as public transport is UNSAFE for women) had already left. We had no option but to try to hail a cab ASAP before we would inevitably be shoved into a GMC suburban (this is common practice) and probably raped. Hence, we ran when one car opened their door to try to pull us in, causing us to get the closest cab we could.

And what punishment did those fucking obnoxious men receive for harassing and almost raping us?

They got to watch us get taken away to the headquarters of the religious police that was all male of course.

Did I mention I was kicked in the foot there for not knowing arabic? And I was forced to cover my face and finger printed (as though implementing nylon drapes in saudi heat wasn't enough).

This was when I was 15. Fif, fucking, teen.

Blame the cultures, not the religion, unless you are prepared to call foul on every religion ever created an become a secular humanist, in which case, fine, more power to you.
I am a secular humanist for that very reason.

But there is no perfect religion and all the Abarhamic religions are about equally bad, it's just that the wording of the Islam texts make their problems more apparent.
It's not just the wording, it's what actually happens in the Muslim world. Bad things happen to women all around the world, but Muslim countries justify infringing on women's rights with religion, and they are, sadly, theologically justified in doing so.

Farhat, IndieBindie, Heina: I am not denying that in the Arab culture there is a lot of inherent sexism and racism and it is being justified by religion. I simply place my blame on the culture, not the religion, because there are many liberal Muslims who got out of that culture and still believe in the basic rules of Islam without oppressing women, homosexuals, non-Muslims or apostates or denying them human rights.

If most Christians and Jews could get over all the sexism, racism, etc etc inherent in and justifiable by their religion once they moved to secular government, Muslims can do it too.

Oh don't get me wrong, I completely agree. I was just sharing my experience as I have went through the most absurd series of incidents there.

The government needs to move away from forecefully instilling a Wahabi (the most black and white school of thought in Islam) way of life on every resident. The government uses religion as a way to legitimize their own rules, and as a large population of Saudi Arabia is actually illiterate, very few people know what their rights are keeping religion in mind. However, I don't think any government should incorporate religion, especially when it thrives on a foreign work force.

Most religions are inherently sexist in some way or another. And im not saying don't practice religion or anything of the sort, I just personally think that to each his own. If my idea of Islam isn't covering my face and being told im a whore (which did happen) and getting kicked, I shouldn't have the religious police telling me I have no other way.

"I read some of the comments. I'm not sure which is worse, the rape apologists, or the nutjobs who think every Muslim in the world agrees with the verdict."

Well, think of it this way, if an act of extreme sexism is committed against a woman in the United States, doesn't some of the blame reside with them men who are happy not to challenge the status quo and just want to live their life enjoing their male privilege in our sexit culture?

Well, the same logic is applicable here. There acts under 'sharia' law are made possible because muslims do not protest it, and as such, they become complacent in it.

I meant sexist and complicit