The best feminist fairy tale I've seen was, surprisingly, in the form of an anime called Revolutionary Girl Utena. It had the trappings of a fairy tale, with a Prince-Princess-Witch setup, while taking place in a rather surrealistic school environment. The reason I found it so fascinating was not only that the main female character is the Prince-character, but that it finally spun the story one step farther and deconstructed the logics behind fairy tales, with all its dreadful prejudices.

It's a bit much for anyone not into anime to jump into, sadly.

Not a day goes by where I don't want to punch Huckabee in the head. I was 8 when he became governor. I'm really sad that I never got the chance to vote against him.

Hey! Before I read any further, I want to say "Thank you" for highlighting the ordination in St. Louis! For more on ordained Roman Catholic Women, check out http://www.romancatholicwomenpriests.org. I had the honor and privilege of being present at an ordination of two women to the priesthood and three to the diaconate in Minneapolis this summer. Amazing!

On the Julia Roberts comment, I too rolled my eyes when I saw clips of the interview, however there really are women out there who want to be stay at home moms and they enjoy that. What would be nice is if we had a male celebrity saying that the greatest joy is to be a stay at home dad, but that's probably not going to happen for a while.

The only thing that gets me is that Roberts continues to "work" essentially and with her success she has all the means to stay at home and take care of her children without every having to do any "actual" work ever again.

It's also cool that she said it was for HER and not something that all women should do.

I live about two blocks away from the Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains. I had no idea that it was the only abortion clinic in Colorado, but I should have figured as such, this being where all of the Evangelicals are and such. The Planned Parenthood in Denver going to meet with a shitload of opposition from the Christian Dominionists down in Colorado Springs, and it's going to get pretty scary, I imagine. I wish them all the luck in the world and believe wholeheartedly in what they are doing. And if the Rocky Mountain clinic really is the only one in Colorado, it is a project that cannot fail.

I absolutely agree that we need more research on the long term effects of hormonal contraceptive use. I'm starting to think that my body doesn't process the synthetic hormones correctly, and that's why I developed vulvodynia. My doctor and I are exploring that possibility, as the onset of the pain seems to line up with the two separate times I was on birth control. I took my very last pill yesterday, and I'm looking at getting an IUD b/c it's the only non-hormonal method with a failure rate that I'm comfortable with.

I think the pill has been a great thing, and I absolutely support it's wide availability at low costs (I wish it were no cost) to any woman who want it. But I also wish there was more research on its effects, b/c there is some evidence piling up that some women's vulvodynia is connected to their birth control, and I feel like if I'd known that sooner, I may have made a different contraceptive choice. I hope that if the pill is what's causing my pain that it's reversible! And I'm nervous about the IUD (Mr. KMP is terrified for me), so any ladies with advice to share?

kissmypineapple- Are you nervous about insertion or other aspects of the IUD? I have Mirena but I'm guessing you have chosen the copper IUD because it lacks hormones. Insertion isn't the most fun thing ever, but it's not bad. I drove myself home after the appointment and had some mild cramping for the day. Taking some Advil about an hour before the procedure should help a little.

I, too, live in the Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains region, and not only that but I work at PP. So, the new clinic in Denver has been something I'm aware of everyday. Of course there are going to be protests, when isn't there?, but I know we're strong and will pull through.

kissmypineapple: I also am getting an IUD, in December. I started my last pack of pills today, and thank god!, because I can't stand the side effects of hormonal BC any longer. I've tried many methods. And, like I said, I work at PP so I know that hormonal BC seems to work fine with lots of women (or they just tolerate the side effects better, or don't care about the side effects), but A LOT of women complain of the side effects. And that scares the crap out of me. Hence, the non-hormonal IUD. I think more studies need to be done, because too many women come into the clinic everyday wanting off hormonal BC all together.

Also, look up IUDS, or Paraguard, or Copper IUD on Wikipedia. I know, I know, wiki. But, seriously. Look at the references and citations at the bottom of the page and READ THEM. They are GREAT scholarly articles about the IUD, not the lame, scare-tactic forums you find when you just Google for the IUD of your choice. Seriously.

ALSO, and then I swear I'm finished, take Ibuprofen before your IUD insert. Yes, it's going to be a bit uncomfortable I'm sure as something is being inserted into your uterus (!). Don't get frustrated with the cramps, and bleeding, and whatever during the first few months. Since you (we!) are going off hormonal BC our blood flow will increase A LOT, like 20% to 50%, so expect that. Expect heavy periods and cramps, and just have that heating pad handy and be ready to pop the Ibuprofen at the first sign of cramps. I think we'll e-survive this together.

kissmypineapple - I have a Mirena IUD (which, given your medical history, would probably not be the choice for you, since it's hormonal.) I chose the Mirena in particular because I had some seriously awful menorrhagia after the birth of my second daughter, and it has cut my flow back to almost nothing at all.

Insertion was certainly uncomfortable, and there was some cramping afterward, but nothing that would prevent me from working or going about my daily business. The heaviest cramps came within 20 minutes after the insertion, and I wished I'd thought to have someone drive me home; the clinic is half an hour from where I live, and while the cramps didn't hamper my driving, I would have felt more comfortable in the passenger seat. But as suggested above, a little ibuprofen before the procedure and then through the rest of the day should make you much more comfortable.

Best of all, I don't have to worry about contraception for five years (well, three years at this point.) I totally heart my little IUD.

"The only thing that gets me is that Roberts continues to "work" essentially and with her success she has all the means to stay at home and take care of her children without every having to do any "actual" work ever again."

I'm kind of confused as to why you're portraying the home work she's doing as some how less "actual" than real "work". Are you saying that the acting she did was "real" work and that raising children and maintaining a home are not? That she's somehow now going to coast on the success of her previous "work" and really wont ever work again? If anything I would say that raising children and housework is on par with, if not more difficult, than acting. I'm sorry to go off on this but the extent to which "women's work" has been devalued in our culture as not being "actual work" really bothers me. I don't think there will ever be equality until we recognize that "women's work" is REAL work. As in its just as hard as pretty much any other job - maybe ever more difficult, especially given that no one seems to appreciate it.

"The only thing that gets me is that Roberts continues to "work" essentially and with her success she has all the means to stay at home and take care of her children without every having to do any "actual" work ever again."

I'm kind of confused as to why you're portraying the home work she's doing as some how less "actual" than real "work". Are you saying that the acting she did was "real" work and that raising children and maintaining a home are not? That she's somehow now going to coast on the success of her previous "work" and really wont ever work again? If anything I would say that raising children and housework is on par with, if not more difficult, than acting. I'm sorry to go off on this but the extent to which "women's work" has been devalued in our culture as not being "actual work" really bothers me. I don't think there will ever be equality until we recognize that "women's work" is REAL work. As in its just as hard as pretty much any other job - maybe ever more difficult, especially given that no one seems to appreciate it. People shouldn't have to "work" a job on top of having children in order to be viewed as successful.

Thank you for covering the controversy in South Korea. I happen to be Korean myself. Shin Saimdang is one of the most prominent female historic figures in Korean history. However, she was really more like the June Cleaver of the United States except that she existed hundreds of years before this.

Bubblex--
Julia Roberts may work really hard at home-- but she never needs to have another paying job. "Women's work" is real work, but it doesn't bring home a paycheck. Not all of us have the luxury of choosing to stay home. Some people need two incomes.

I think that was UltraMagnus' point. Not that Julia Roberts needs to keep acting to be successful, but that she is wealthy enough to never have to work for money again.

She embraced the traditional views of what women should be; chaste, loyal, and subordinate. It was due to Chinese confucianism and 성리학 (sry dont know how to say this in English) that was influential in Korea during that time. Of course, most South Korean women now work outside of their home, independent. South Korea also has one of the lowest birth rates in the world. Btw, Shin was also an artist, I believe, as the column says. However, she is not exactly remembered for her artistry. Thus the controversy is because feminist organizations are saying that she does not reflect the current status of women in Korea. Hope this helped.

Julia Roberts' statement rings a little hollow for me.

She has the money and the means to DO exactly what she's talking about, but she's still working outside the home. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to chase any woman back into the kitchen, but I find it disingenuous to hear a multimillionaire saying "Oh, if only I could stay at home and raise organic cabbage."

Honey, you COULD. You CAN. If that was really what you wanted, you'd be doing it instead of giving interviews about it in between movies.

I have to agree with Bubblex - while I am all for women working in the public domain, the constant devaluation of housework is not a progressive way to get to equality. When a woman leaves the 'workforce' to be a stay-at-home mom, I prefer to say she's changing jobs. Because that's what she's doing, and unfortunately she doesn't get paid for it and instead likely gets chastized for not supporting the women's movement. Which, I have to say, is true. She's not supporting the women's movement by making that decision. But she's still working her ass off, most likely.

"f anything I would say that raising children and housework is on par with, if not more difficult, than acting."

Yeah, the difference isn't difficulty or "realness," it's the payment.

When Julia Roberts accepts an acting role, she's hired by someone else and could possibly make a profit if that someone else pays her enough (y'know, if what she gets paid > the currency equivalent of the goods or services she rendered).

When Julia Roberts has children and a house, and raises them and cleans it herself, she's essentially hired herself for the job and can't make any net profit (being on both sides of the equation and all that).

"'Women's work' is real work, but it doesn't bring home a paycheck."

More accurately, being your own boss and your own client/customer at the same time doesn't bring home a paycheck. Meanwhile, some other so-called "women's work" jobs like nursing and teaching sure can bring home a paycheck...

"I have to agree with Bubblex - while I am all for women working in the public domain, the constant devaluation of housework is not a progressive way to get to equality."

Hold it, weren't women pushed into less-lucrative work because we were unfairly devalued, not because the work was unfairly low-priced? The way to get past that would be opportunities for women to do more-lucrative work.

You know, like with race. When a school district steers most of the black kids towards low-paying jobs with more competition like janitor or maid and more of the white kids towards higher-paying jobs with less competition like doctor or lawyer, is the answer to just give the janitor a raise above market rates for those services or to stop discouraging the black kids from becoming doctors and lawyers too?

the scare quotes were for the acting, which I consider "work" to some degree, which she continues to do despite her stated desire to be a stay at home mom. If that were the case, she'd quite acting altogether, she has the money to do it. Sorry for the confusion.

For the people getting the IUD, it may be more painful than they describe. I'm not trying to scare you, but I was very upset with how much they diminished my pain when I had a saline-ultrasounds. It involved a catheter through the cervix, which shouldn't have been too big a deal but my cervix was being "ornery." So, they had to give me a shot of lidocaine IN THE CERVIX before pumping my uterus full of saline. It was very painful, and I cried a lot. I'm hoping that your IUD insertion (which I believe involves a catheter in the cervix) will be less painful than my experience, but be prepared for some significant pain. Take painkillers beforehand, it should help (I didn't, being told that it was "no big deal" and I'd only have "mild cramping")

Thanks for the advice everybody (holy crapface sunflwrmoonbeam, that makes me very nervous!), I'll definitely take some ibuprofren, and Mr. KMP will be driving me home (and holding my hand!). Yeah, it's mostly the insertion that makes me scared, but the 50-75% possible increase in menses isn't soothing either. Anything's got to be better than the excruciating pain that comes with vulvodynia though, so I think it's worth it for me. Mizza, good luck to you!

testing comments post-upgrade!

Hey, kissmypineapple, I have the non-hormonal IUD, too. I had an OK insertion -- uncomfortable and pinchy, but not as big a deal as getting my wisdom teeth out. Definitely not as bad as the migraines & vomiting I got from pills. I hope yours goes smoothly. A word of warning: I did get some literally breathtaking cramps off and on in the first 2 months. Hopefully you won't, but if you do, I hope you won't let them freak you out (I got freaked by them a little bit, but they eventually went away completely).

It pisses me off so much that women still have to go through all the pain and risk of birth control and there's no prospect of birth control for men...nowhere in sight!!!

It pisses me off so much that women still have to go through all the pain and risk of birth control and there's no prospect of birth control for men...nowhere in sight!!!

Um, there are multiple types of male birth control in development, and at least one is undergoing Phase III testing in the United States. Some work by preventing ejaculation in a non-hormonal fashion (take it a few hours before sex), others are hormonal (taken every day).

Ok, on the whole Julia Roberts thing... I understand what you guys mean about staying at home not bringing a paycheck, but to me when I hear someone compare staying at home to "real work" it implies that those of us who stay at home are sitting around eating bon bons all day long.

And Mina's comment about the valuing of being a stay-at-home mom (not sure I'm comfortable calling it "women's work" since I think we should move away from that sort of stereotyping) just falls right in line with that. Her comment, to me, says that staying at home is viewed the same as being a janitor, and that instead we should be pushing women to go to higher-paying jobs to "make more of themselves." Why is this? Why do we think that women who raise their own kids are devaluing themselves? Why is it not viewed as a worthwhile, important thing to RAISE THE NEXT GENERATION? No, I may not be bringing home a paycheck, but my husband and I are willing to make the extra sacrifices in order to do with one income, and I see spending time with my family and raising my children myself as a better reward than bigger cars and houses.

It also pisses me off when people say that choosing not to work means not supporting the women's movement or even pushing it back. To me, the women's movement is about giving women CHOICE-- choice in how to manage their bodies and lives, the choice to work outside the home and have fulfilling careers for those who want or need that. But saying all women should be working outside the home is, in my eyes, not much better than saying we should all be in the kitchen all day long-- either way you're pressuring someone to not be fulfilled in the way she wants to be. For me, family is more important than career (I'm not doing this b/c "it's my role in society" or b/c I feel pressured, I'm doing it for the sake of my children). What does that have to do with my views on women's rights, and why does that somehow stop me from doing other things to help further the women's movement?

meant to say staying at home VS "real work"

I also want to clarify that I don't think women who work are "bad mothers" or anything like that, and don't want anyone to take that message from my comment. I know many women who are better mothers because they work, b/c they have lives outside the home. That's wonderful. Me, I've always wanted to stay at home with my kids and help raise them myself, b/c that's what is important to me. I see that as a better way to spend my time and effort.

kmp~ i have a copper IUD. had it for two years now. yes, there is some cramping at first. yes, possibly your first two periods might be a little worse than normal...it is afterall a foreign object...you have to get used to it. but then it eases out, and i don't even ever notice mine! no idea what all this talk about catheters and saline and such, none of that for me. the insertion, while painful, was quick and easy. best bc choice i ever made. hope you like it as much as i do...no pills no shots, and no hormonal side effects. take some aleve or something b/f you go in, though.

and now i want to thank marcy for her comment. i am getting out of the military soon, and my boyfriend and i are discussing the possibliity of me staying at home for a while...something i have a desire to do since i have worked my daughter's entire life. as wide and vast and varying as feminism is, i am sick and tired of people viewing someone who actually wants to stay at home and raise the next generation of feminists as holding herself back or demeaning herself. it is time i want to use to volunteer at my daughter's school, start writing again, and pursue some other things i have always wanted.

we are willing to make the sacrifices to make that happen. it's my choice. the same way it was my choice to have a career thus far, it is my choice to stay at home. i don't think we should have to explain that desire to anyone, least of all other feminists who should be supporting women in all the choices we make. i wish more people had the means to make that choice if they wanted...i sure as hell have been there! i know how desperately some people need two incomes...and have worked my ass off to be able to make this choice. please stop making us feel inferior as feminists for wanting to stay at home. this isn't some gender role i want to fulfill, it is a choice to help instil some values and spend time w/ my offspring.

rock on, marcy, and anyone else choosing to stay at home. and rock on all the kick ass women out there who work, in and out of the home everyday!

"Her comment, to me, says that staying at home is viewed the same as being a janitor, and that instead we should be pushing women to go to higher-paying jobs to 'make more of themselves.' Why is this?"

My point was that when "women's work" or "black people's work" gets paid less, at least half the solution should be taking the "women's work" or "black people's work" label off that work and taking the "white men's work" label off the higher-paying work.

"Why do we think that women who raise their own kids are devaluing themselves?"

Devaluing yourself? No. Likely to get paid less? Yes. How do you expect to make a net profit if you practically are your employer and your only client/customer?

Meanwhile, supply and demand apply to the price you can get for services as well as the price you can get for goods. Encouraging lots of girls to become pink-collar workers doesn't really help raise the pay and increase the self-sufficiency of the women who already have those jobs.

BTW, this has nothing to do with the *value* of the goods or services (for example, rice is more valuable than rubies because food's more important than gemstones but costs less than rubies in part because the supply's so much larger).

"But saying all women should be working outside the home is, in my eyes, not much better than saying we should all be in the kitchen all day long-- either way you're pressuring someone to not be fulfilled in the way she wants to be."

...but the latter way is also pressuring women who aren't rich to stay less able to feed and shelter ourselves, and often to stay one man (and any STDs he brings home, especially if he takes her for granted and cheats knowing she can't afford to leave) away from welfare or begging on the streets.

"why does that somehow stop me from doing other things to help further the women's movement?"

It doesn't! :)

BTW, did anyone else see this article?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7090300.stm

One way is pressuring women who aren't rich to stay less able to feed themselves, and the other way is pressuring them not to be fulfilled in the way they want to be.

But that's not a real dilemma. People could just give up pressuring them altogether and let them live their lives the way they choose.

Perhaps some women make an economic profit from staying at home even if they take a financial loss. They can satisfy more of their preferences than if they got a paycheck for doing something they don't enjoy doing. That's just a way of saying they can be happier if they do whatever they choose. Of course, when they aren't able to do what they choose - get the paycheck or forego it - because of prejudice or discrimination - then that's objectionable.

Here's another possibly-relevant article, this time on UK rape laws:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7090065.stm

"One way is pressuring women who aren't rich to stay less able to feed themselves, and the other way is pressuring them not to be fulfilled in the way they want to be.

"But that's not a real dilemma. People could just give up pressuring them altogether and let them live their lives the way they choose."

Exactly! :)

"Perhaps some women make an economic profit from staying at home even if they take a financial loss."

Um, was that a typo when you meant to type something like "emotional profit," or am I not yet smart enough in the money department to know the difference between "economic profit" and "financial profit"? If the latter, what's the difference (inquiring mind wants to know :) )?

"Of course, when they aren't able to do what they choose - get the paycheck or forego it - because of prejudice or discrimination - then that's objectionable."

...and meanwhile when it's not because of prejudice or discrimination but because both partners want to forego pay, and are monogamous and not-so-rich instead of having a a 3rd partner or a trust fund to be their breadwinner, then it's a real dilemma.

Mina, I'm not asking anyone to stay at home that doesn't feel comfortable with forgoing that income. I'm also not supporting women who stay home b/c their husband wants them to and then treats them badly b/c he knows they can't leave. Those are different issues. My whole point is that no one should feel this outside pressure to stay at home or work, they should be able to make that choice depending on what their personal and family situations are, free of prejudice from others.

And yes, obviously having a career outside the home will mean you get a paycheck when staying at home to take care of the kids won't give you one. We certainly seem to be looking at this from different sides, though-- you're speaking of the actual monetary compensation or cost, while I'm focusing on the value of staying at home vs working. To me, the value of enjoying time with my children, and being there to teach them life's lessons, is worth much more than the paycheck I would receive otherwise.

There is also the added issue of childcare costs. For many women the paycheck they bring home just barely covers the cost of childcare, so the financial aspect is a moot point.

By the way, I completely agree with your point about stripping the labels off "women's" or "white men's" work. Everything I say here also goes for men who choose to stay home and be "Mr. Mom." My husband happens to make 3x what I would make in my chosen field of work, and is also much more career-driven than I am naturally, but if it were reversed then I think it'd be great to have dad stay home with the kids instead.

"We certainly seem to be looking at this from different sides, though-- you're speaking of the actual monetary compensation or cost, while I'm focusing on the value of staying at home vs working."

Yeah, I was thinking more in terms of survival (for example, the actual compensation in food or something one can exchange for food).

So, when group X is oppressed by being limited to higher-risk and low-paying or no-paying jobs (which are harder to survive on), opportunities for Xers to survive more easily are more liberating and more worth fighting for than pretending the risk isn't there is.

Meanwhile, I was also thinking of Terri Hekker's situation:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0108-04.htm

"...Hekker's advice to young American women now could not be more different from that of 25 years ago when she traveled the country extolling the virtues of making good meals, keeping a clean house and bringing up fine children. She still believes that those things are worthwhile, but she is under no illusions about marriage being forever. Today, she says, women have to look out for themselves as well - to prepare 'for being abandoned, so that if you end up alone you will have the skills to look after yourself'.

"McWhorter Sember agrees: 'Any young woman who didn't acquire skills to earn money for herself is taking a huge risk. It is not just divorce, though. After all, your husband could die.'..."

"By the way, I completely agree with your point about stripping the labels off 'women's' or 'white men's' work. Everything I say here also goes for men who choose to stay home and be 'Mr. Mom.'"

I totally agree!