Let's not ignore the fact that the dog (a bulldog) is a rotund fellow himself. Because chubby ladies can only hang out with chubby dogs--and even they'll leave when someone better comes along.

Not surprisingly, I first found this video on CollegeHumor.

First let me say that I did not watch the commercial because I did not want to become upset as I think I might become while I'm at work.

Secondly, it's too bad this commercial isn't a kind of parody of the weight-loss industry or just ads in general. So much of our advertising plays on people's fears that if they don't do this or that they will wind up a failure/unloved, but rarely does an ad come right out and say, "Buy our product or end up a failure and unloved" the way this ad apparently does.

It's really interesting how the worst threat this guy can think of is, "you won't be able to find a husband." A fate worse than death!

I would love to see someone make a response ad, where the "fat" woman flicks this guy off and says, "Guess what, I don't even want a husband. I'm happy the way I am. And I'm not going to buy more stuff just because you think I should be unhappy with myself." ...But snappier than that...haha.

Wait, so there's a real life version of White Goodman from Dodgeball?

My mind can't get around this. It's a gym for people that are already skinny? But you don't have to be healthy right? You can be anorexic or bulemic? What an ass. I don't even want to think about the type of people that belong to this gym knowing this is his gimmick and philosophy.

How in the world would you call this the "anti-gym"? If anything it's the proto-gym. I can't imagine anything that would make me want to work out less. A key reason that I joined my gym was that most of the people I saw there were middle aged women and that I didn't have to be embarassed about the very small amount of weight I would adjust the machine too. I just don't understand how this business plan would work?

Wouldn't your living room couch qualify as an "anti-gym" more than this gym-on-steroids?

I wish I believed in hell 'cause I'd feel a lot better knowing this man was gonna get what he deserves.

ugh, what an awful gimmick. i'm not going to watch the commercial. i'm just going to pretend this doesn't exist, because this guy just wants controversy.

I saw one of their ads on TV a couple of nights ago - midway through the evening news. It almost made me cry and did make me turn the TV off. Are they trying to give people flashbacks to mistreatment in school? These are offensive on so many levels - and they employ the bullying tactics that scream hate into the very soul of any person ever teasted, even if they were teased for other things than weight.

how are things like this even legal? this whole getting away with descriminating against over-weight people or plus size people is just pissing me off. You can't descriminate against a person for anything else openly, but weight.

I'm a chubby woman (fat, even) who is about to marry somebody who thinks I'm gorgeous... and I always have sex with the lights on.

But seriously, the frog queen is right. If this were any other minority group there is no way this commercial would get air time. But when it's fat people being targetted, that is just fine.

How degrading.

This reminds me of why I was so afraid to join another gym. I went to one when I started school. I didn't stay with it because I was tired of being stared at and being the butt of jokes (Ooh, look at the fattie work out! teehee!). I was a fat woman who (gasp!) WANTED to exercise/lose size/get fit, but I couldn't take being the fattest, most unkempt person in what was obviously a singles bar/meat market atmosphere. (Seriously. The women all wore MAKEUP to work out! I thought that was insane.)

After many reassurances from my housemate, I did join a gym recently. Thankfully, my neighborhood Y caters to all ages, sizes, and family types. All the staff that I've spoken to have been helpful, friendly, and encouraging.

As far as Mr. Karolchyk's establishment goes, I figure that if grown men and women want to go around acting like the in-crowd in Junior High, they will get the level of discourse they deserve.

As someone who was chubby for a good chunk of my life ... ugh. On so many levels.

Watching Oprah while eating cupcakes in the dark? Is that the best stereotype they can come up with?

If you can stomach enough of the Web site to look through it, you'll find that they're actively supporting legislation to make childhood obesity a form of child abuse. Sure, parents need to help their kids stay healthy, but seriously? Is that supposed to be some kind of eugenics program to discourage people who are genetically prone to being overweight from reproducing (or at least living in that state)?

The one positive thing I saw on that heinous Web site is that they offer wake-up calls. I seriously wish my gym did that.

And on that note, off to the (non-anti) gym I go!

With you 100%, under_zenith. I am an overweight girl who has never turned out the lights for sex and is completely in touch with and confident about my sexuality. I doubt that that anorexic women have truly good sex, as they are probably obsessing too much about their bodies. Then again, isn't that what men like this anti-gym guy want: passive women with whom sex is rape-like?

The best sex I ever had was after a plate of delicious pasta for energy. 'Nuff said.

I live in Denver and this "anti-gym" advertises on a radio station that I used to listen to and the radio adverts are just as bad as the television ones -- one talks about how your ass should break your husband's hand if he slaps it, one features two women talking about how one can't have sex with the lights on because she's so ashamed of her body -- and the station's official policy line is that they can't control the content of their advertisers. They've officially lost at least one very loyal listener and my suspicion is that they've lost more than that, because they had the owner of this gym on the morning show defending himself, abysmally, I might add. It really is sick.

I live in Denver and this "anti-gym" advertises on a radio station that I used to listen to and the radio adverts are just as bad as the television ones -- one talks about how your ass should break your husband's hand if he slaps it, one features two women talking about how one can't have sex with the lights on because she's so ashamed of her body -- and the station's official policy line is that they can't control the content of their advertisers. They've officially lost at least one very loyal listener and my suspicion is that they've lost more than that, because they had the owner of this gym on the morning show defending himself, abysmally, I might add. It really is sick.

Wow...

I'm in Canada, and I have yet to see this. I doubt with the government's agressive anti-bullying campaign featuring endless commercials about adult bullying in the workplace that this would be allowed.
It's fine to let people who are dumb enough to fund this gym me assaulted and degraded, but promoting physical and emotional violence to the general public is going beyond what's necessary.

And good call on the White Goodman, Jeff. It's exactly what it is. I can only assume that Mr. Karolchyk's agressive and violent hatred for fat only stems from his own hate for himself and his fear of not being loved.

And I know for a fact if someone chucked a cupcake at me while I was on the treadmill I would totally eat it.

The commercial is obviously disgusting, but I'm sorry, being fat does NOT make you a minority or victim of discrimination. I'm not saying people don't discriminate against overweight people, but they also discriminate against blondes, bald guys, etc. - calling yourself a minority because you're fat is taking it too far. Unlike your racial status or sexual orientation, you actually CAN control your weight to a very large extent. Yes, genetics plays a part, but most people who are overweight eat too much or exercise too little...it's just a fact. Comparing being fat to being a racial minority demeans the meaning of what it is to be a minority.

How do I know I'm gonna get flamed for saying that?

I'm not really a pro-weight person (I accept that past a certain level health is affected, and I really think anyone past that point should focus on their health for their own good) but this is horrible, and networks shouldn't be accepting it. I don't care how much they paid. Who has let this air? Who can we complain to?

And EyeHeartNY, I'm afraid I'd support that legislation as long as they made provisions for children with medical disorders and were focusing on parents who overfed their children to the point of diabetes or making them bedridden. I've often thought that continuing to feed someone unhealthy food when they were bedridden from obesity and aren't even able to feed themselves should be considered a crime, a bit like bringing razors to a known cutter just because they asked for them, or inducing vomiting in a bulimic. But any such legislation would have to only apply where there is an obvious, overwhelming issue.

Basiorana, show me one incidence of a child being bedridden from obesity, and unable to feed themselves, and their parents continue to stuff them full of junk food. Just one.

Raginfem, if it was possible to change your race or sexual orientation, would that make discriminating against racial minorities and homosexuals suddenly okay? I hate that line of argument, because it totally comes across as: "Well obviously everyone would choose to be a straight white male if they could, but since they can't, it's wrong to insult them."

"Is that supposed to be some kind of eugenics program to discourage people who are genetically prone to being overweight from reproducing (or at least living in that state)?"

I'm sorry, but that's an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. In the '70s there were not nearly as many obese children and guess what - those people probably had similar genes to what people today have, even in the same families. Most kids I know who are obese stuff their faces all day with absolute crap and don't exercise. When obesity "runs" in families they've found that shared eating habits contribute just as much if not more to the weight than genetics. I'm guessing if you fed these kids who are "genetically prone to being overweight" healthy food for several weeks and had them play outside for a few hours every day, their excess weight would somehow magically disappear...

Think practically about that legislation, Basiorana. Do you honestly think it would be helpful to children? How many children do you know who are "bedridden from obesity"? You're conflating two different populations: chubby kids and people who make the Guinness Book of World Records. Here's what would happen: chubby kids would be taken from their parents and put into the foster care system. Does that really sound like a good idea to you? Something that's in the kids' best interests? It's really better to be forcibly seized from a loving home, the only one you've ever known, and put into the limbo hell of the foster care system where so many kids are deprived of basic love and support, than it is to live with loving parents who don't mind if you eat a lot of mashed potatoes, corn chips, and watch TV?

You're also assuming that controlling a child's weight is well within the power of his or her parents. How? Kids who go to school pretty much do what they want food-wise, when they're out of the house. I'm pretty sure that if my mom had known that I was drinking a coke every day with lunch when I was in 5th grade, she would have flipped...but...she didn't, and I'm naturally skinny. If you flipped this legislation, I would have been taken away from my parents because it was impossible for me to put on weight. It's still very difficult. So why should a kid who's naturally chubby be persecuted like that?

All that is leaving aside the poverty issues, which have been discussed at length before--the relative expense of fresh fruit and vegetables compared to processed goods, the difficulty of making ends meet with food stamps, etc.

Karolchyk will be another Asshole of the Week tomorrow.

Nice ads. I propose this one for them:

"The Anti-Gym: Emotional and physical abuse is teh HAWT!"

Asshats.

Uh-huh. And how do you "make" kids play outside when they live in a city? Or if they live by a highway and there's no safe area? Or if they live in a gang-ridden neighborhood and it's simply not safe for them to be on the streets?

Or, as in my case, they'd just rather read a book?

Hey, I thought of another one:

"The Anti-Gym: You too can be that asshole who picked on you all through high school!"

Gee, maybe I should ask for a job in their marketing department?

raginfem, you are using ridiculous stereotypes. I'm a Brownie leader, and I can tell you, the girls who eat the most are actually the really skinny ones - they're the ones who have fast metabolisms so they need lots of food. Our chubby and fat girls don't eat anymore or any worse than the rest (our fattest girl forwent the chips for salad at our last camp, telling me with a big grin: "I love salad!"), nor are they less enthusiastic about jumping up and playing tag and jump rope. Some children are just chubby... it's called "baby fat", and it often disappears after a growth spurt.

Ooh, good point, under_zenith. Allow me to clarify...I guess for me, being a woman or being a different race or being gay are not bad things. But being overweight...well, I don't judge overweight people, and I have many overweight friends, but it's not healthy and most of the time I worry about them because they don't exercise, don't eat well, etc. - and that's just not good for overall quality of life. It's the same with "skinny fat" people - you know, thin people who also don't exercise and therefore aren't actually healthier. Thanks for pointing that out though, my intention wasn't to say that inability to change yourself isn't the ONLY reason we should be against discrimination.

EG, why are you so ardently defending unhealthy living? Kids SHOULD be moving around and using their bodies - as humans we're not supposed to sit in a sedentary state all day. This stuff really worries me because I feel like with all of the video games and computer games and other things kids can do now, many of them don't bother to go outside. This happens even in areas where kids CAN go outside. And if they do live in a city, I think it's a parent's responsibility to get them active - bring them to the pool, get them involved in intermural sports, take them to the zoo and walk around all day - make it fun. And yes, I understand some people can't afford to do that, but that still doesn't mean we should be defending what is essentially unhealthy for children - perhaps we should find ways to help kids like that get out too.

And under_zenith, I am not using ridiculous stereotypes. Any nutritionist will tell you that weight gain happens when metabolic input exceeds output...if you eat more calories than you're burning, you'll gain weight. Some people have lower metabolisms so they do in fact have to either exercise more or eat less, so it is harder for them. But do you honestly think you know everything about those girls' eating habits because you're in GIRL SCOUTS with them? I have friends who eat salad for lunch every day but are overweight because they get hungry later and then eat nothing but junk. You don't see everything those girls eat and simple nutritional science proves you wrong, so I think I'll stick with my "ridiculous stereotype."

How successful is this gym? I can't imagine that feeling ashamed of yourself even more than you probably already do is going to help anything.

I also thought of Dodgeball and found it very sad that someone decided to put it into practice. There's a difference between "tough love" and sadism.

Two points re: the Legislation:
I have worked in children's community mental health for over eight years, and by law we are required to report any form of abuse within 24 hours. In my eight years, I have probably called CPS (Children's Protective Services) ten or so times. Some were for small things, and I called more for liability reasons than anything else, but some were for MAJOR abuse cases. In every single case, not one report was followed up by a CPS worker. We currently have a child (twelve years old) who sleeps naked with his mother at night while she has sex with men for money right next to him, and this has been report to CPS numerous times, confirmed by many sources. CPS has replied that this is the mental health agency pushing our "morals and values" on the family and they are not going to investigate. The blame is not only on the CPS workers either, one case manager I know has over 400 cases assigned to her to investigate - there is no way she can throughly investigate them all. My point? Do you really think that CPS is going to be able to investigate every single report of an overweight child in the home? They are so overloaded as it is! And it takes time and money away from the children who are being severely beaten, sodomized, starved, and neglected. All CPS would do would refer the parents to nutritional programs, all of which were available before CPS entered the picture. We have such a lack of foster homes in Idaho that even those that are being severely abused are kept in the home. It's horrible.
My second point is the irony about this douche claiming on one hand that anti-discrimination laws for overweight people is simply "Big Government" (his words) stepping in again where they are not wanted or needed, but when it suits his needs, big government is fine. It reminds me of Terry Nichols, the OKC federal building bomber, whining because he didn't like the public defender he was assigned, yet he admitted to blowing up the building because he was "getting back at the government." Cry me a river.

under_zenith: The comments about bedridden people were referring mostly to adults who have to live with their parents or a spouse because they can't get out of bed. They're rare, sure, but they shouldn't exist at all, and they should be considered a form of abuse. I'm sorry, upon rereading I didn't make that distinction clear.

EG: I wouldn't want it to go so far as to take kids away. Perhaps a mandatory class in ways to cook healthy food inexpensively (it CAN be done, it's just not something we know automatically) and calorie-counting and a few checkups from CPS now and then to make sure the parents are making an effort (and maybe a fine if they refused to comply). And you would have to make the legislation very precise so that the only way a kid could wind up under CPS's gaze was if they were diagnosed with serious health problems relating to their weight (diabetes, a obesity-related heart condition, etc), and after a certain amount of time their doctor and CPS confirmed that the parents weren't making any effort at all. Again, I am talking the very far ends of the spectrum, not the kids who are a little heavy. And schools should be offering healthier food anyway, maybe parents would push for them more if they were worried about getting written up.

Perhaps it is impractical. I would never support anything like that without reading what the bill said VERY carefully. I still think it's a good idea in theory, but in practice it might cause more problems than it solves.

raginfem: "Most kids I know who are obese stuff their faces all day with absolute crap and don't exercise." is a stereotype. You've admitted that you know people who eat unhealthily and don't excercise and yet are still thin, why is it so difficult to believe that the opposite can be true as well? That people can eat healthy and excercise but still be overweight?

And we're getting a little off topic here, so I'm just going to say: It is not acceptable to show anybody being assualted and humiliated in order to advertise a product. And if the person in question wasn't fat, I doubt it would fly. But there is a perception in our culture that it is okay and even a good thing to humiliate fat people, so companies can get away with stuff like that. And that's bullshit.

keric125: Wow. I had no idea CPS was that bad. I mean, I knew that it was flawed, but it sounds horrible there-- I wonder how bad it is in my state, I will have to research that. I hereby withdraw any comments I might have made about supporting such legislation-- clearly it is not anywhere near as important as reforming and funding CPS for the ones who very severely need it.

"It's the same with "skinny fat" people - you know, thin people who also don't exercise and therefore aren't actually healthier."

Hey, wait, raginfem - What about us fat people who eat healthy, exercise, and are by every medical standard "healthy" - but are just fat? We are not that exceptional. We are not that rare. And you cannot tell from the outside who eats crap and who doesn't, nor is it anyone's business but their own.

It is silly to say that all you have to do to get thin is to eat right or exercise well. This is not a bloody thermodynamics problem. Energy in = energy used plus stored, but the energy used is not a linear equation where you just have to move more to burn more. The body regulates itself to a very particular size within reasonable inputs. It is just as difficult to make a naturally fat person thin and keep them that way as it is to make a naturally thin person fat - that is, it is almost impossible. Study after study are showing this. Check out the blog Junkfood Science.

To say fat=lazy /is/ a ridiculous stereotype and is exactly what these people are trying to tell you - that it is so acceptable to hate on the fatties in this culture that it doesn't even get a second thought. No, overweight people are not minorities, but there are two things to remember here: first, it's not okay to discriminate and hate on people for something they can't change. Second, it's really not okay to do the same for people who can, anyway. It is none of anyone else's business. If shame and humiliation were enough to make fat people thin, there wouldn't be any fat people in this country.

EG, why are you so ardently defending unhealthy living? Kids SHOULD be moving around and using their bodies - as humans we're not supposed to sit in a sedentary state all day. This stuff really worries me because I feel like with all of the video games and computer games and other things kids can do now, many of them don't bother to go outside. This happens even in areas where kids CAN go outside. And if they do live in a city, I think it's a parent's responsibility to get them active - bring them to the pool, get them involved in intermural sports, take them to the zoo and walk around all day - make it fun.

Because I find there to be a noxious level of judgmentalism levelled at people whose preferred ways of life are not considered "healthy" in popular wisdom. Why is it so offensive to some people that others might not consider a one-size-fits-all paradigm of human health worth overriding all their basic urges and desires? I was a very sedentary child. Putting me in any kind of sports would have been punishment--and furthermore, I just wouldn't have done it. You can't actually force a kid who's sedentary to put the book down and run around a field if she doesn't want to. Some people do not like exercise. I didn't walk until I was almost 2. I hated gym class. I wouldn't exercise now if you paid me. Why is it so difficult to accept that people can be fundamentally different, and that what seems like a good thing to you is not at all appealing to me?

Further, what parents do you know who can afford to take a kid to the pool or the zoo every day? Most parents I know work full-time. Their kids go to school. The parents come home, see to meals, household stuff, etc. and the kids have homework. The kids might even want to do an extracurricular activity that isn't athletic, like playing music or writing. Why must all parents make your priorities their priorities? Why does your idea of health outweigh their knowledge of what's feasible for their family and best for their child?

I'm going to do my best to not get upset over this discussion.

It is true that often overweight people could eat better or exercise more. I don't think that's the point of this story, and I think that bringing it up in a thread about this story reinforces for overweight people the idea that their weight is, in fact, a valid reason for verbal and physical attacks. And that they shouldn't whine too much because, after all, they could control themselves if they just tried a little harder.

There is a place for people to focus on healthy eating and exercise, but why does that have to be here, in the shadow of that asshole shouting 'moo!' at that poor, underpaid actress?

I would hope that this would be a place where we could all agree that nobody deserves to be humiliated or abused just because of the way they look. That's the only point that should be derived from this particular story, and having it be a springboard for fat-blaming is upsetting.

raginfem,
I think EG isn't "defending healthy living," but rather pointing out that are ideas of what people could do to be more healthy often involve assumptions that our characterized by our privilege (like that everyone has a neighbor that kids could go out and play in or that people aren't working two jobs and have time to take their children to the pool [the free pool?]).

I also think that this is a really tense issue because although now many people take issue with obesity from the angle that it is unhealthy to be obese. For years (and clearly as this commercial demonstrates, still today), being over-weight has been linked with moral failings (like that person is slovenly, lazy, and stupid and that is why they are fat). Our discussion about weight-loss for health reasons cannot be divorced from the impact of history (namely years of fat-shaming for non-health related reasons).

The fact is, as this commercial demonstrates, issues of body weight are still deeply tide up with people's personal issues of self-worth. To pretend it's all about health is disingenuous.

I have an overweight sister. And, if he treated my sister like this, I'd probably kill him with my bare hands. I'm not exagerating.

Granted, her diet and lifestyle is not something I subscribe to and it surely frustrates the hell out of me. But, that does not give anyone license to hurt someone else.

Sorry, I honestly hate this man.

My comment is full of many embarrassing typos, but I hope what I mean is clear. Sorry!

Furthermore, I must object to the term "skinny fat people." If what you mean is "unhealthy skinny people," why not say that? "Fat" does not actually mean the same thing as "unhealthy."

Well, at least we'll know who to put up against the wall first when the revolution comes: this douchebag and all the dipshits who paid money to be insulted by him.

The fact is, people come in different shapes and sizes FOR A REASON.

I happen to be larger than a size 4 (or a size 10 for that matter) and I AM PERFECTLY HEALTHLY. I do not go to a gym or work out at home, but I am not utterly sedentary either. Nor do I even own a bathroom scale. I do not watch what I eat too carefully (what fun is that?), but I do not eat nothing but "crap" either.

My heart is strong, and yes, I can "move my body" however I damn well wish. No, I can't wrap my leg around my head like a pretzel, but I don't know too many so-called "healthy" people who can do that either.

Not being thin does not equal being unhealthy. And I find the term "skinny-fat" extremely rude and ignorant. Thin or fat, it doesn't matter. It shouldn't even be an issue. And I am mighty mighty sick of those people who try to tell me that they are better than me somehow because they assume I am unhealthy since I couldn't fit into any of their clothes.

I used to be very very very skinny. And now I am voluptuous.

I totally prefer voluptuous!

Did everyone see the story the other day that suggested that it was healthiest to be overweight? Second healthiest body type was 'normal' and skinny and obese brought up the rear.

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-na-weight7nov07,1,6174404.story?coll=la-headlines-health

As a person who is not obese but will never be skinny, let me say 'Woo!' And where is the movement to remove normal weight children from the homes of their abusive parents?

I'm being facetious but really... can we let each other be a little.

I think that anyone who can't let any weight story go without mentioning their negative feelings or opinions about fat people might be having a problem with body image or self-esteem.

Actually, studies are showing that overweight people (BMI 25-30) live longer than normal weight people (BMI 18-25). And being obese (BMI >30) has about the same mortality risks as being underweight (BMI (Source)

Also, while the calories-in, calories-out theory can work on a small scale, like eating one more candy bar a day may cause you to gain some extra pounds, it can not be extrapolated on a large scale to. As in, if one extra candy bar a day would cause you to gain 10 pounds, that does not mean that a 300 pound person eats 200 extra candy bars a day. It does not mean they eat any candy bars a day. My best friend weighs twice as much me, and she certainly doesn't eat twice as much as me. We've lived together before and spent a lot of time together, and often our diets are relatively similar. But, even eating the same exact meals doesn't put our weights anywhere near eachother. What has? When she was bulimic. Some people are just meant to be larger and can't get to a more normal weight in any healthy way.

"But being overweight...well, I don't judge overweight people, and I have many overweight friends, but it's not healthy and most of the time I worry about them because they don't exercise, don't eat well, etc"

I don't judge overweight people - I just tell them how unheathly they are. Because, I'm totally the final authority on what's healthy for EVERYONE.

Ah, concerned trolling. NOthing like showing everyone your bigotry while denying it.

I can't believe the people who observe that Americans used to be a lot less fat, and somehow draw the conclusion that this is a *personal* problem, that individuals just need to exercise more willpower or something.

Newsflash: if everyone in a culture is doing it, it is probably something in the culture doing it *to* them, and shaming them personally, threatening them with the loss of their kids, or otherwise treating it as a personal failing just shows a complete failure of logic. What, in 30 years the moral fiber of Americans completely decayed? We weren't that great of a people in the 70's, you know.

the truth is, if I were to look at a fat person vs. a skinny person, and they are the same age, I would draw the following conclusions:

1. The fat person is probably poorer than the skinny person, and has access to a lower quality of food. Few in America starve, but the cheap food is loaded with fat and sugar.

2. or, the fat person is working much harder than the skinny person. The skinny person has a lot of leisure time to plan meals, cook for themselves, and go to the gym, or take long walks, or ride a bike. The fat person drives on a scarily long commute to a mentally grueling job that involves sitting at a desk for 9 hours, and then drives home, and having consumed something like 11-12 hours at work, has no physical or emotional energy to do anything but unwind in front of the TV or read a good book. Probably the fat person eats a lot of take-out because their time-consuming work schedule allows little time to cook.

3. Or, the fat person gets a lot less sleep than the skinny person, as lack of sleep is known to cause weight gain and diabetes. Possibly for the same reasons as 2.

4. The skinny person might smoke, do drugs, or have an eating disorder.

5. The skinny person might have a naturally fast metabolism.

Except for 5, all of the above are caused by trends in our society. Many fewer Americans smoke, and instead of self-medicating with very dangerous illegal drugs that strip us to the bone, many of us legally medicate with drugs like Prozac that put on the weight. We have less time, less money, bigger portion sizes, more fat and sugar in the food, less support for going outside for activities, longer commutes, and more desk jobs.

NONE of this shit means fat people are lazy. A lot of it means fat people are hard-working. Probably harder-working than the skinny people. Some of it means the fat people are healthier (if you are skinny because you smoke or you do meth, you are not healthier than a fat person.) So the moral judgements that fat people are "unhealthy" and "lazy" have got to fucking go.

Full disclosure: I was skinny as long as I was childless and my life schedule allowed an hour or two to walk every day. I got kids, no longer had the time in the day for the long random walks, and what do you know, I got fat.

I'm kind of depressed to see this kind of prejudice on the site, truly. EG, thank you as always for your great comments.

Ah, the fattist vs. fittest argument. Sigh.

All I can say is: I don't own a car and I walk and ride my bicycle EVERYWHERE. I love to cook and I eat a very healthy diet with lots of fruits and raw vegetables (and not swimming in ranch dressing). I eat pizza or hamburgers maybe twice a month. I bring my lunch to work at least 4 days a week and they're usually bento lunches--small portions of every food group. My blood pressure, blood sugar and cholesterol are low-average.

And I'm a size 20.

Don't look at someone's size and think you know everything there is to know about their lifestyle or health, or that you have the right to judge them. You absolutely do not.

"I doubt that that anorexic women have truly good sex, as they are probably obsessing too much about their bodies."

There is no excuse for ridiculing big people just as there is no excuse for ridiculing those that are thin or have eating disorders such as anorexia. Perhaps your statement was not meant in this way, but it really isn't any of your business or mine who is having great sex based on their body type. I am an ally of the pro-fat movement and supportive of my friends who participate in it and have found strength from it, but it is not an "us" vs. "them" or "fat" vs. "thin" battle. Speculating on a person's sex life because of a legitimate medical condition seems inappropriate to me in any context.

I'm hardly going to go up to a person in the street and tell them they're fat. I wouldn't even do it to someone I knew, because chances are, they know and it's not my business anyway.

But I'm going to go into medicine. So I most likely will wind up telling obese people that they should lose weight someday. Note, OBESE people. With my career choice, I have issues saying "Oh, it's just their choice, they should be considered beautiful for it" because it's not actually truly healthy. But as I said, I would never judge an individual for their weight, and attacking them for it, like this ad does, is worse.

Basiorana, I appreciate that you wouldn't go up in the street and tell someone they're fat, but your statements still kind of sound like your passing judgment...like it's a horrible thing that they are fat, but that you wouldn't want to be rude and tell them so. Sorry if that was not what you meant and I'm reading too much into your comment.

I was a very sedentary child. Putting me in any kind of sports would have been punishment--and furthermore, I just wouldn't have done it. You can't actually force a kid who's sedentary to put the book down and run around a field if she doesn't want to. Some people do not like exercise. I didn't walk until I was almost 2. I hated gym class. I wouldn't exercise now if you paid me.

You just described my childhood exactly (including the not walking until 2!).

Also, the "trend" of Americans getting fatter can be linked to the induction of high-fructose corn syrup to the food market. That shit is evil and it's in almost everything. Evil, like the asshat in the video!

raginfem:
Call it what you will, but the "all fat people are unhealthy" line of argument is merely a semantic restructuring of "all fat people can't control themselves and that's why they're fat."

If I knew you in person, I would challenge you to outlift or outswim me. You wouldn't be able to, because all those skinny girls working out on the next machine or the next lane can't.

It's people like you who come up to me after I get out of the pool and actually say things like "you're an amazing swimmer" with the added "for your size" left hanging in the air unsaid. It actually keeps me from swimming with the Masters team because I get so damned sick of the surprised looks when I can go as far, as fast, and for as long as most of them.

I don't know why I should be surprised though, even feminists absorb the cultural story that if you're fat, you must be lazy and not go to the gym.

Let me clarify-- I understand that there are many, many reasons why people are overweight and thus while I will speak generally of the kind of person who is obese because of their lifestyle choices, I would not actually talk to them about it or treat them any differently than anyone else unless I was their medical doctor, and understood why they were the way they were.

Me too Jessica... feminist sites are a place where I let my guard down, so when prejudiced statements are made here it's like being slapped in the face.

I'm hardly going to go up to a person in the street and tell them they're fat. I wouldn't even do it to someone I knew, because chances are, they know and it's not my business anyway.

Exactly! I don't know why more people can't see it that way.

So I most likely will wind up telling obese people that they should lose weight someday

Just... be careful how you do it. A lot of fat women avoid seeing doctors because when they do, they just get bullied about their weight. (Or have all of their problems blamed on their weight, I know a fat woman who went to the doctor for strep throat and he told her: "Just lose some weight, you'll feel better") So, try to have compassion and understanding about it. And if a person tells you: "Look, I know the risks of being fat but dieting hasn't worked for me and I'd prefer not to be lectured about my weight", try to accept that.

under_zenith, your comment reminds me of the last time I went to see my former doctor.

It was for an annual phyical check-up, and I was sitting there in that little paper gown while she read my file, and then she looks up at me and says, "Well, you have gained X number of pounds in the last 5 years. So what's wrong? What's giong on?? What's your problem???" And she said it so bluntly, it was just like being slapped across the face. (The fact that she is this teensy weensy short petite little bitty woman didn't help.) I felt just like an elephant wrapped in a Kleenex! (I am only a size 12-14.) I was so upset I began to cry, and she sort of backed off a little bit, but continued to insist I tell her why the hell I was no longer very thin. I was so humiliated, I never went to see her again. I have a new doctor, and when I went to see her for my next annual physical, she said I was wonderfully healthy and had a nice, strong heart and all that jazz. I felt so good about myself, I immediately fell in love with my new doctor and will continue to see her always.

So, everyone, I'm conducting a poll:

Which is worse?

this horrendous, utterly disgusting and bigoted commercial

-or-

the fact that people are using something this disgusting and bigoted as an excuse to concern troll?

Decisions, decisions.

"If this were any other minority group there is no way this commercial would get air time. But when it's fat people being targetted, that is just fine." - Under_zenith

Looking through the site, I have a feeling that by their standards "chubbies" (their word, not mine) are the majority, not a minority.

Wow, Jessica. I've always considered myself a lifelong feminist and now because I'm expressing an opinion about unhealthy living habits I'm told by you that I'm prejudiced. Right. Well, I'm sorry I didn't jump on the bandwagon and make as many excuses as possible for overweight people so that they'd feel better about themselves. Making excuses for unhealthy people isn't going to make them get any better, whether they smoke, drink, overeat or undereat. Personal responsibility is awfully hard to come by in our society right now and I'm tired of it. I don't agree with the commercial which was the subject of the original post, but if I want to point out that most (not ALL) overweight people could probably lose weight if they felt like it (and some don't! I get it!), that is NOT prejudiced, and quite frankly, how dare you call me that.

Aside from that, Jessica, I think you overstep your bounds as moderator on this website. You constantly make negative comments toward people who don't completely agree with the feminist status quo and defend the ones who shoot people with different opinions down. As a moderator your job is to make sure there aren't any blatantly stupid remarks that don't contribute to the conversation, not to play favorites. Whenever ANYONE who has a SLIGHTLY different opinion from the rest of the people on this website posts their remarks, they are instantly flamed and called trolls and sometimes their comments are even misinterpreted so blatantly it seems almost intentional. I am horrified that I was placed in the category of "troll" here when I was doing nothing more than expressing concern about some of my friends' unhealthy living habits - and incidentally, most of the ones who don't exercise and eat and drink too much also magically turn out to be the ones who are overweight. I personally feel AMAZING when I exercise and by mentioning to everyone here that it's a wonderful thing to get involved in, it is somehow interpreted as me shoving my views down other people's throats and insisting they live the same way I do.

Finally, I just have to say that I am deeply upset by the way many of you react to people with different views than you. Again, some people here are "trolls" - name-calling is a great strategy for argument, by the way - but posting comments in a little feminist bubble without actively considering other people's opinions isn't going to change the world in any productive way; it will just make all of you feel validated in your opinions. In many ways this blog just incessantly preaches to the choir. As a feminist I WANT to see change in this world, but ignoring people who don't agree with you on every single topic and refusing to intellectually engage with them by just calling them trolls and moving on isn't the way to go here. Some of you had great responses to my remarks - I especially liked the person who pointed out that I shouldn't call unhealthy skinny people "skinny fat." That's a popular term and I have just realized why it is a faulty one. So thank you to that person; you changed my mind. The rest of you just called me names, alienated me, and didn't further the cause of lessening prejudice against overweight people.

By calling people names without bothering to explain to them why their views might be faulty, you are doing a disservice to feminism. Instead of calling the next sexist guy's comment on this blog a troll, why not explain to him in a very calm, rational way why his way of thinking is flawed? In the case of Amman, for example, someone might have pointed out to him that the definition of sexual harassment is when EITHER gender makes unwanted sexual remarks or contact, not just men, and then added that because it's mainly men who sexually harass women, that's why he perceives it that way. It might not have changed his mind, but it certainly would have done a better job than calling him a troll, which is what many of you tend to do. It's lazy, it's offensive, and it doesn't further the very causes we all believe in. I don't think I'm going to come on this blog anymore, but I hope some of your attitudes change for feminism's sake.

Mz.Stilletto:
When I was 16, I weighed 160 lbs (I'm 5'7"). I swam 2.5 hours a day and could lift a huge amount of weight. My doctor told me I was overweight and should go on a diet. I was a pretty shy kid and totally internalized that and as the years go on and I look back at pictures and marvel at how incredibly fit I was I get so angry at how that doctor treated me. I didn't fit into the "healthy" measures of that era, which made a physically fit girl feel like she was fat - not by the media, mind you, but by a "medical professional."

Bah. I hadn't thought of that in a long time. Now I'm all irate.

raginfem, I'm a fat woman who also feels amazing when she excercises, and that is the whole POINT. That you can't assume all fat people sit on their asses and eat potato chips all day, which is what you're doing, and it's offensive. And for a fat woman who just watched that horrible ad, it is double offensive to return from watching it just to have somebody on a feminist website espouse basically the same view.

Also, several people did explain to you rationally why they thought you were wrong. Read EG or particularily AlaraJ's comments.

I'm sorry I didn't jump on the bandwagon and make as many excuses as possible for overweight people so that they'd feel better about themselves. Making excuses for unhealthy people isn't going to make them get any better, whether they smoke, drink, overeat or undereat.

But raginfem, time after time, experience as well as surveys will show that when people feel bad about themselves they do not improve their own health. Helping people to feel better about themselves does help their health, as it helps them feel that taking care of themselves is a worthwhile activity. Anecdotally, the times in my life when I've felt worst about myself are the times when I consciously engaged in unhealthy behavior the most.

This many not carry a lot of weight with you, since Jessica liked my comments, but since it's her and the other moderators' website, it's entirely up to them what their roles should be. I personally have always marvelled at their abilities not to flip their shit over comments--one of the reasons I could not run a website like this is that I would never, ever leave my computer.

under_zenith, you didn't even bother to read my entire post. That's exactly why I'm not coming on this site anymore.

under_zenith, you didn't even bother to read my entire post. I AGREED with BOTH of the points you just made. This is exactly why I'm not coming on this site anymore.

raginfem:
I'm sorry you feel you've been inappropriately attacked, but I do suggest you come back and read your comments when you've calmed down. The way you discussed your side was insulting and patronizing, which is really why you got the reaction you did.

Even in your last post you talk about how you feel AMAZING when you work out, which is irrelevant to peoples' response to you. I too feel great when I work out, but no one was advocating for people to not work out. They were trying to tell you that the things you were saying were truly unfair and poorly presented at best. Maybe you can't see that now, maybe it's easy for you to be thin and you think that anyone who isn't just like you is lazier than you are. I don't know. All I know is that your assertions about why people are heavier really bothered me because I felt that you were attacking *me* without knowing me. Because I know exactly what you would think of me if you saw me on the street: lazy, eats too much, etc...none of which are true.

Can you blame us for getting upset with you for that?

raginfem:
I'm sorry you feel you've been inappropriately attacked, but I do suggest you come back and read your comments when you've calmed down. The way you discussed your side was insulting and patronizing, which is really why you got the reaction you did.

Even in your last post you talk about how you feel AMAZING when you work out, which is irrelevant to peoples' response to you. I too feel great when I work out, but no one was advocating for people to not work out. They were trying to tell you that the things you were saying were truly unfair and poorly presented at best. Maybe you can't see that now, maybe it's easy for you to be thin and you think that anyone who isn't just like you is lazier than you are. I don't know. All I know is that your assertions about why people are heavier really bothered me because I felt that you were attacking *me* without knowing me. Because I know exactly what you would think of me if you saw me on the street based on what you've said here: lazy, eats too much, etc...none of which are true.

Can you blame us for getting upset with you for that?

EG, that's a really good point. There was actually a study done recently showing that children who were shamed for their weight were more likely to end up overweight in 5 years than children who were treated kindly. Also, putting the emphasis on weight loss rather than healthy eating and excercise for their own sake is harmful. Because if a person is making lifestyle changes in order to lose weight, and they don't lose weight or don't lose as much weight as they would like, then they'll probably just go back to their old habits. Whereas if people make lifestyle changes for their health, and see health benefits but no weight loss, they're more likely to stick with it.

Of course, if somebody wants to eat junk food all day and never excercise, I don't really see how that's any of my concern either.

Mz.Stilleto, that happens to me, too!

Seriously. Sprained shoulder/neck from too much heavy lifting? I'm too fat. Sore throat and persistent cough? I'm too fat. Regular check-up? Don;t have them any more. Every visit I get asked what I'm doing to lose weight, what diets I've tried, how often I exercise and, when I tell them what I'm doing, they pick it apart.

Last time? I mentioned the most recent weight-loss attempt that had worked; alternate-day fasting. Day 1- water. Just water. Day 2- balanced meals. Day 3- water. Day 4-balanced meals, and so on. Plus the hour walk to and from work daily, bi-weekly walks along the pebbled beach and swimming.

My doctor's response?

"And do you think that is enough?"

So yeah, be careful Basiorana. Be sensitive. That sort of thing has resulted in me and my mum both putting off or just plain not going to a doctor for crippling back pain, regular migraines, persistent chest infections, lumps in the breast/armpit, viral infections...

raginfem, you still seem to be equating "overweight" with "unhealthy".

QUOTE: "...make as many excuses as possible for overweight people so that they'd feel better about themselves..."
AND THEN: "Making excuses for unhealthy people isn't going to make them get any better..."

Many, MANY people would consider me to be overweight. And I *am* healthy. And I don't need to "get better". I am perfectly fine JUSt the way I am!

Why was this an appropriate place to talk about how you feel about fat at all? Your failure to see this as a thread decrying the acceptance of verbal and physical abuse is the problem, not anyone else's valid points about how your attitude supports the point of view of the man in the clip at the top of the page.

Oh, boo-hoo, raginfem. Don't let the door hit you.

Here's the thing, RagingFem -- you seem very upset that you came into this and said some things that are very hurtful to a number of people, and then those mean people had the temerity to be mad at you.

I suppose that's your right and all, but consider if someone came onto a different thread, and started saying, "Well I think abortion is fine for women who have accidents. But the sluts who use it for birth control...well, I mean that's just unhealthy. Think of the STDs you can get if you sleep around.", would you think that they were somewhat misguided, and required polite-but-firm correction? Or would you think the person was dealing was at the very least somewhat misogynistic?

I'd take door number two, myself. And if that person responded to everyone's posts about that being offensive by ratcheting up the rhetoric to 11, while saying, "I was doing nothing more than expressing concern about some of my friends' unhealthy sexual habits"...you'd flame away cheerfully.

YOUR COMMENTS WERE OFFENSIVE. Perhaps you didn't mean them to be, but they were. They hurt a lot of people on this site. You're entitled to your opinion, which is evidently low with regard to fat people. But you're not owed a pat on the head and a hearty "well-done." If you offend people, they have the right to be offended. And they damn well have the right to say so.

"Personal responsibility is awfully hard to come by in our society right now and I'm tired of it."

Yikes. Do you know what you sound like, raginfem?? You're being called out on your incredibly prejudiced (negative, judgmental, stereotypical) opinions about fat people. (Fat does not equal unhealthy- there are as many "thin" unhealthy people as fat ones.) Instead of whining about getting called out for it, why don't you poke around at some fat acceptance websites (shapely prose, the round, big fat blog)and educate yourself.

Damn...make that the rotund, not the round.

Aside from that, Jessica, I think you overstep your bounds as moderator on this website. You constantly make negative comments toward people who don't completely agree with the feminist status quo and defend the ones who shoot people with different opinions down. As a moderator your job is to make sure there aren't any blatantly stupid remarks that don't contribute to the conversation, not to play favorites.

Um, actually Jessica is not a moderator. Well, I mean, she is, but I'd say it's a serious mis-characterization of her role. Last time I checked it was her fucking blog (and the other ladies'). Are you seriously suggesting that she's not allowed to express an opinion about the comments left on her blog about a post that she wrote? Because I don't know what else to do but laugh.

Also, I will say that you're behaving in a prejudiced manner. But Jessica never named any names. You decided that she was talking about you.

I agree with the suggestion that you come back later and reread this thread, because right now you clearly don't get it. This conversation on such a post is 100% inappropriate to begin with.

Also, to clarify, I did not call you a troll. I did say that you were engaging in the act of concern trolling. There is a difference, and as far as I know you're not a troll. But you are concern trolling. I honestly understand the misinterpretation, though, which is why I clarified. I can't speak for anyone else, though, and I doubt that this clarification will make you less angry about it, anyway.

raginfem, I can't "overstep" bounds as a moderator--it's my site. And I'll insert my opinion whenever I damned well please.

That said, I AM sorry that you feel badly about people calling you a troll, I'm sure that feels very alienating. But just take a breath, step back, and read the comments--listen to what people are saying without getting immediately defensive. You may take something from this thread more than just being pissed.

On responding to every sexist comment on the site with understanding, etc: that's not my job. It's not my job to coddle sexists, nor do I think it in the best interest of feminism. I spent a hell of a lot of energy trying to do just that (online and off) when I first became involved in feminism--and it was a waste of my time.

There's a great quote from Audre Lorde about how it's not the responsibility of the oppressed to teach the oppressor. They can teach their own damned self. And I'll keep trying to provide the best feminist space I can.

I get almost all my feminist education from this website, predominately from the discussions and I recommend it to my friends with the statement 'and the discussions in the comments are really good they really talk about things not just fighting and flaming to see this one plummet into personal attacks makes me sad. If there's no different oppnions then the debate will just be a collection of pointless agreement and back slapping; which is no use for when we encounter others who may be entirely opposed to your overall aims and need to exercise reasoned arguments. if you can't marshal some when someone in your own camp holds similar but slightly differing opinions but instead turn on them you weaken your own position in so many ways. If some one gives offence it is not permission' to vent anger on them. And when you recognise that the person may have meant something different to how you read it or that the person gave offence unintentionally do you not owe it to them to be kind and explain what you took from what they said with out being punitive about it?

And when you recognise that the person may have meant something different to how you read it or that the person gave offence unintentionally do you not owe it to them to be kind and explain what you took from what they said with out being punitive about it?

No, not really. I don't feel like I owe anyone who offends me anything.

That's not to say that there's no merit in what you suggest. There is. And, in fact, I'm quite positive that what you suggested is what actually occurred on tis thread. The "flaming" started when the offender(s) refused to admit any wrongdoing and just kept digging the hole deeper.

I think you have misread the thread Puka.

under_zenith: "Just... be careful how you do it"-- God, yes, my dad once went in for a foot infection and was told to lose weight. Hopefully I won't become one of "those" doctors. While I might bring up weight if they had a health problem directly relating to it, harping on it is useless.

The problem is that while doctors shouldn't be saying "It's okay to eat way more than the healthy caloric intake" a lot of them are instinctively prejudiced against overweight people, and some really bad ones can't see past that even to find out if someone has a non-diet/exercise related reason for it. If I ever get to be that kind of doctor, hopefully my friends and family will smack some sense into me.

Most people on this thread: I don't think any of us here are saying this ad isn't terrible, degrading, and should be off TV. Since we all agreed on that point, rather than just keep agreeing with each other, some of us decided to talk about attitudes towards weight in GENERAL, whether they are anti-fat, pro-fat, or downright derogatory.

People on this site are quick to accuse others of trolling. Trolling, in my experience, is when people intend to be hurtful, or to get a rise out of people. From what I've seen, there's been lots of accidental hurtfulness and thoughtlessness, but it didn't seem like raginfem was intending to make people respond as they did. She was simply stating her own opinion. Disagreeing with the majority hardly makes one a troll, and it can prompt serious discussions if other people take it for what it is: an honest opinion or belief. If that is offensive, it is unfortunate, but it is nonetheless honest, and unless it is obvious intended to hurt someone, they should take it with a grain of salt.

Also, I'm pretty sure what most people are thinking when they say "overweight" is actually "obese." Way too many people in our society confuse the two. Overweight= usually okay health-wise, obese= getting into the serious-medical-problems realm.

Yikes, things got heated.

I spend a lot of time in the fitness world. I spend a lot of my disposable income on trainers and memberships. I love working out. And I am eager to spread the gospel of fitness -- which is not, in any way/shape/form (literally) the gospel of thinness. The longer I work out, the more clear I become that appearance has damn all to do with fitness.

I'd love to know which national certification agency certified Karolchyk. (I guess none,but anyone can call themselves a trainer without credentials in most states.) No trainer I know would endorse his methods.

And if you poke around his website, you'll see that his gym has a deal with a liquor distributor. Foul.

Hopefully I won't become one of "those" doctors. While I might bring up weight if they had a health problem directly relating to it, harping on it is useless.

Very glad to hear that =)

As for raginfem, nobody accused her of being a troll. She was accused of concern trolling, which is a little different. And I think it was a reasonable accusation... it did seem like she was using "I'm concerned about your health" as an excuse for her negative attitudes about fat people.

They've actually figured out that obesity is strongly correlated with an individual's mother not eating healthily during pregnancy. Its called the thrifty phenotype hypothesis and it is a uterine environment response that makes babies born into starvation more likely to survive. The problem in America that has lead to obesity is not that people are starving - they are just eating way too much nutritionally poor food. The lack of essential nutrients in women who eat poor sources of food (processed/fast) triggers her fetus to develop a conservative metabolism which stores fat remarkably efficiently. This phenotype change is the result of selective genotype methylation patterns that lower the metabolism. The problem is that these babies are then born into an environment where they receive a great deal too many calories for their low metabolism because the food isn't scarce after all, it just sucks. If children gestated in nutritionally poor environments are actually born into food scarcity, they develop normally and have an advantage over children without a thrifty phenotype. The solution to the problem is clearly removing high fructose corn syrup and transfats from everything we eat and educating people about eating better - especially pregnant women.

Ugh. Let's blame mothers too.

i have to say, even with the offensive, prejudicial comments in this thread, i come out of it reassured that the vast majority of people here are thoughtful human beings.

thanks for that, guys.
my best friend for over 20 years (we met when we were in kindergarten) is overweight and i have vicariously experienced fat prejudice through her and it's ugly. it does seem to be one of the few prejudices it's socially acceptable to have these days.

Really nice seeing how they have a female dancer 'on tap' dancing for the gym members.I liked how one of the male coaches was dressed like a woman, and another like an arab. Not racist, or sexist at all.....

What a fucking asshole. Woudnt this anti-gym make great PR/advertising to use by a rival gym? How come no one has used it?

In the case of Amman, for example, someone might have pointed out to him that the definition of sexual harassment is when EITHER gender makes unwanted sexual remarks or contact, not just men, and

Um...for the record, I did tell him that. If...somewhat aggressively...

But I still understand why everyone responds the way they do. Because it's happened, over and over, so many times that it just becomes...tiring to go through the same things again and again with the same exact trolls. And I imagine, in the past, those trolls never, ever changed their tune. Not one iota.

That said, I don't think you're a troll. But it's rather apparent you said things that were offensive, and thus people said things that were offensive back. So it goes.

I suspect bas is right, though...people are using "fat" and "obese" interchangably...when they are two very separate conditions.

That is one nasty demoralizing advert. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Oh well, I hope he uses a blunderbuss.

WTF? Amman is still here!

One vote for his dismissal right here!

I doubt she'll come back to read this, but...raginfem, you don't know why any given individual is fat/overweight/obese, and you don't know whether any given individual, fat, thin, or in between, is healthy.

Also, I don't think anyone's addressed this - you wrote that you don't want to "make excuses" for people's unhealthy (implied: fat) lifestyles. In other words, that you needed to set those people straight. What on earth makes you think that they need to be told that by you? Are you their health care provider? Are you a specialist in those diseases? Do you think that the idea that fat is unhealthy has never before been uttered within their hearing?! Cause let me tell you, as one thin woman to (presumably) another, THEY'VE HEARD. Why would you take a thread that's about how it's ok to humiliate a fat woman and decide that, just for the public good, you'd better remind everyone again about how fat is bad?

Also: you said that Jessica had no business calling you prejudiced. Well i'm sure that must sting, but sweetie, by assuming that fat people are that way because they're unhealthy, and that because they're fat they must be unhealthy, you expressed a prejudice. A belief formed before knowing the facts; that's the definition of prejudice. We all have prejudices, of course. But it's important to be able to confront your own.

Finally, you might find this article enlightening:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/health/07fat.html?_r=1&ref=health&oref=slogin

Okay, I'm going to risk getting myself in trouble and actually go back to the topic of the ad itself. I think it's horrible, inappropriate, and a ridiculous method of advertisement. But I've seen a lot of people post here about how that method of, ah, "encouragement" would never work, and it's just demoralizing, etc, etc.

Funny thing is, you never know what encouragement technique is going to work on a person. Full disclosure: I'm a relatively fit individual, limited in my activities by nasty aerobic induced asthma, but I still have found one way or another to get regular exercise for nearly a decade now. I always have to have a partner (what works for me is a feeling of obligation to someone else), and so I've had a *lot* of partners over that time, moves, lifestyle changes, etc.

And I've known some people for whom that style of...almost abusive assault is what they actively *want* to get. It actually does motivate them. More people than one might think. I've never partnered with that sort because...ah...that's not my style, but they certainly exist.

I can and will attack the inappropraiteness of pushing this advertisement on the public in general...but the people who actually go to this fellow's gym are apparently getting what they feel they need to get to motivate themselves. And that's...well, that's worth some thought.

You know, as a guy who's been fat pretty much all his life, I'd really like to put my foot up Karolchyk's ass -- I've heard that "lazy fat guy" crap too much, even when I was fit enough to run up many flights of stairs and tear a phonebook in half when I got there. The shaming, hurtful, lunatic comments that have been offered to me by complete strangers have left me wounded in ways I can't even begin to describe -- and I absolutely have no interest in being a "victim." Oh, and fuck the radio station that plays his ads. [This really stirred up some long-repressed rage in me; methinks I am really going to unload on the next asshat with an opinion re: my weight.]

Wow, after reading this debate between raginfem and many posters I have to agree with her. It does seem like many posters are ganging up on her. She only seemed to be expressing rational sentiments about being able to be physically free in a world that was meant to be enjoyed by employing every tool the human body has to offer; spirit, mind, and physique.

Second, I'm skeptical about including fat people as a hate crime because skinny people get made fun of as well. Maybe if they made a case for all body types it would make the overall case for non-discrimination based on body shape more legitimate. Arent skinny people technically the minority in America?

BTW, I'm all for keeping sexist assholes off this site, but from what I've read ONLY on this post it didnt seem like she supported the gym, and was merely acknowledging a different opinion about legislating discrimination against overweight people as a hate crime.

I was more insulted by basioranas comments on the "Tonka toy TV commercial" where she defended and says she'll institute gender roles for her future children than I was by reginfem's posts. I would hate to think we lost a good feminist because of it.

Thin people critical of fat people are never going to come across as anything but bullies. and vice versa.

I'm going to offer my own experiences as a fat girl - I've gained 35 pounds over the last four years, which doesn't sound so bad if I were much taller. As it is, I'm short, and I'm clinically obese. Only part of this can be attributed to a poor lifestyle. Especially when you consider that I've changed that lifestyle for the better, nutritionally and physically, and I still gained 8 pounds of fat, when my caloric intake did not seem to match that. I feel emotionally sick because of this. I'm suffering all the negative effects of obesity, and changing my lifestyle has not seemed to help. I feel like I don't have the willpower and the discipline to fix myself when I do certainly have the willpower and discipline. But I don't seem to have a body that wants to listen. I will continue to look in the mirror and see a fat, lazy slob, even though rationally I know that I'm not lazy. I will continue to equate size with moral failing, even though I know I shouldn't. So go ahead and tell me that my obesity is my fault. That I'm an unhealthy, lazy person. You're very wrong. I may be unhealthy, but as much as I'd like to have control over that, I DON'T.

Wow.

Honestly, I feel like the problem here is pretty simple.

Assume that the percentage of people living unhealthy lifestyles is greater in the group consisting of all "fat" Americans than it is in the group consisting of "not fat" Americans. I know that this is a disputable assumption, but it's one that many people here seem to be working from, and it's defensible.

Two of the consequences of this assumption are:

1. There are fat people who lead perfectly healthy lifestyles.
2. There are not-fat people who lead dangerously unhealthy lifestyles.

I think that this is exactly the assumption that raginfem is operating under, and I also think it's the same assumption that many (if not all) of the people who are attacking her are arguing for. If raginfem had replaced every use of the word "overweight" or "fat" or whatever with "overweight person who fails to live life in a reasonably healthy way despite the easy availability of a healthy lifestyle," she probably wouldn't have been attacked nearly as much. She did-- repeatedly-- clarify that she is aware that fat people can be healthy and that thin people can be unhealthy. I think she was probably hoping that the rest of you would read her posts in that light, and understand that she is not asserting that all fat people are unhealthy and lazy and that all thin people are healthy and vibrant. She was discussing a correlation, not a rigid categorization. She made the mistake of speaking in absolutes and hoping that others would understand her meaning.

However, many of those on the other side of the debate have also spoken in similar terms to those raginfem used. I'm not going to go look for them, but there have been plenty of statements saying things like "fat is not unhealthy," and they don't include any disclaimers related to the fact that fat CAN be unhealthy, even if it isn't always so. These people were not attacked, likely because the subject who is being ignored (unhealthy fat people) are likely not offended by the statement, while the ignored subject in raginfem's rhetoric (healthy fat people) are likely to be offended.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that there is really no need for this battle at all. There's a lot more agreement going on than disagreement. I would also add that some of this seems to be the fault of overreaction on the side of those who are attacking raginfem-- I submit that an overweight person leading a healthy lifestyle would have only minimal reason to be offended by raginfem's posts, if those posts were read as they were meant to be read, with an understanding that her comments apply to a subclass of overweight people who do lead unhealthy lifestyles, they're applicable to skinny-but-unhealthy people, and they're not applicable to overweight-but-healthy people. Not to speak for her, but I think raginfem probably phrased her comments in terms of weight both because of the subject of the thread, and for the same reason that issues of sexual violence are often phrased in terms of gender-- women are disproportionately victims of sexual violence, while overweight people are disproportionately likely to lead unhealthy lifestyles.

I'm aware that I cannot speak for the experiences of overweight people who read raginfem's post. I'm a young male with low bodyfat who eats fairly healthy food, plays sports, and goes to the gym regularly. If folks with a different perspective were offended by what raginfem said, that's their experience, I respect the reality of that experience, and I have no standing to question it. I just think that there's a lot of overreacting going on here, and both sides would be well served to chill out a little bit. Some of the comments which followed her missive-- such as saying that "YOUR COMMENTS WERE OFFENSIVE" or saying that it's her problem that she thought Jessica was targeting her, because Jessica never explicitly mentioned her name, despite the fact that Jessica's post was clearly directed, at least in part, at her-- are overly snarky reactions to the situation which are enabled by a form of groupthink which allows someone who has demonstrated themselves to be a dedicated feminist, in repeated comment threads, to be exiled from the board because she happened to use a few too many absolutes in her linguistic choices.

Anyway, I know that I have no credibility here, but that's my 2 cents. There's no reason that a discussion of this issue needs to be anywhere near as polarized as this.

"Ugh. Let's blame mothers too."

Why would you jump to construe a scientific explanation of increasing rates of obesity as the consequence of processed and nutritionally poor foods as "blaming mothers". Its not blaming women to say that what they eat has a significant affect on their child's development. If anything, spreading this knowledge will help women make healthier choices.

Um, PaperCup (and others): raginfem was not "exiled" from the site -- she left in a huff . I personally don't believe she meant anyone any harm, either, but I *do* believe she stepped into something she does not fully understand. For those of us who have been called lazy, fat slobs our whole lives -- even while exercising -- well, we're fucking sick and tired of being patronized by the faux "concern" of people who say they're only thinking of our health, but are actually simply disgusted by our bodies. *That's* the button raginfem pushed, at least in my head, and if she doesn't want to stick around and learn something from the folks who actually have to cope with the shame and anger of this "chubbies" crap, then it's her loss, to put it gently.

But PaperCup, why on earth should thin, healthy people be offended at the idea that there are heavier healthy people? For my part, the minute raginfem used "fat" as a SYNONYM for "unhealthy" (in the "thin-fat" comment waaaaaaay back up there), they lost credibility. And I don't think it's necessarily overreacting to expect that someone with a feminist background might be able to look critically at societal assumptions and question them. Once again, you cannot tell what kind of lifestyle someone is leading by looking at them

CanIbeafeministtoo: Fair enough, she wasn't exiled. She was ostracized.

AnnaTwitch and CanIbeafeministtoo: This is exactly the problem. She spoke in absolutes (what you refer to as using 'fat' as a synonym for 'unhealthy'), and that was a mistake. Her detractors did not care enough to look at the remainder of her comments on this thread to realize that she didn't actually MEAN to use the terms as synonymous.

Is her use of the words as synonymous-- despite her repeated statements that they are not, in fact, synonymous, which could have allowed a reader to infer that she didn't intend to mean that they were synonymous-- that big a crime?

I guess it would be more useful to ask a question of those who were offended by raginfem, because I am legitimately interested in your perspectives and experiences:

Did you really think that she thinks that 'fat' is synonymous with 'unhealthy?' I understand that you thought her choice of language was offensive and poorly made, but did you think that raginfem herself, from a subjective perspective, was equating the two in her mind?

If so, If you look back over her posts with my reading of them in mind, do you still reach the identical conclusion?

If so, why is it that my reading of her posts and your reading of her posts are so starkly different?

Is it solely because I fit into society's preferred standards for body type and you do not?

Is it because we were looking for different things when we read her posts?

AnnaTwitch: I certainly didn't intend to say that thin, healthy people are offended by the knowledge that overweight healthy people exist, nor did I intend to say that they should. I'm not sure where that comes from in my posts, but I didn't mean it.

What, you're Sam Waterston on Law and Order now?

Did you really think that she thinks that 'fat' is synonymous with 'unhealthy?' I understand that you thought her choice of language was offensive and poorly made, but did you think that raginfem herself, from a subjective perspective, was equating the two in her mind?

Yes. I did, and I wasn't alone, obviously.

If so, why is it that my reading of her posts and your reading of her posts are so starkly different?

Perhaps because you haven't heard the same condescending, obnoxious, pseudo-concern about fat people a hundred times before? Because I have. And I've seen its effect on my friends. And I have no patience for it anymore.

Fair enough, she wasn't exiled. She was ostracized.

Having people disagree with you forcefully is being ostracized, now? Gee--who knew? I thought being ostracized was when people demanded you go away and refused to engage with you. Wow--I was totally ostracized back on that thread when several posters objected to me saying that most men hate women. Amazingly, I didn't just take my toys and go home. I actually...you know...thought about others had said.

I submit that an overweight person leading a healthy lifestyle would have only minimal reason to be offended by raginfem's posts, if those posts were read as they were meant to be read, with an understanding that her comments apply to a subclass of overweight people who do lead unhealthy lifestyles, they're applicable to skinny-but-unhealthy people, and they're not applicable to overweight-but-healthy people.

And I'd submit that, when you're dealing with and discussing a group of people who've had to put up with being treated like shit for a long time, that you'd be well served to make damned sure that you're being really clear, and that you're not saying things that add to it. When you constantly use "fat" and "overweight" to mean "unhealthy" you're adding to the misconception that weight is a good indicator of overall health, when it's not.

Not to speak for her, but I think raginfem probably phrased her comments in terms of weight both because of the subject of the thread, and for the same reason that issues of sexual violence are often phrased in terms of gender-- women are disproportionately victims of sexual violence, while overweight people are disproportionately likely to lead unhealthy lifestyles.

Well, except that they're not. Women are disproportionately the victim of rape while men are disproportionately the perpetrators- but overweight people are not disproportionately unhealthy compared to other people. People are unhealthy. Most people don't work out enough, or eat the right food. Most people have bad habits- they smoke, or they drink, or they... well, you get the idea. So, no, it's not the same.

And, quite frankly, it's none of your business how healthy someone is or is not. It's their business.

Unlike your racial status or sexual orientation, you actually CAN control your weight to a very large extent.

You can also control your religion. Do you also not believe people can be discriminated against based on religion?

And EyeHeartNY, I'm afraid I'd support that legislation as long as they made provisions for children with medical disorders and were focusing on parents who overfed their children to the point of diabetes or making them bedridden.

Oh great, well then, let's also make laws against letting your child become anorexic because you obviously don't feed them enough or you didn't teach them to love themselves enough, and let's make laws against parents whose children break their bones too often because obviously they're not supervising them closely enough, and let's make laws against parents whose kids get cancer because obviously they exposed them to some sort of toxins or didn't feed them enough anti-oxidant rich food. Or maybe they got cancer because mom and dad used too many synthetic cleaners around the house rather than buying expensive organic brands, and we need to make laws against parents not buying the right cleaning products. Let's make laws against EVERYTHING!!! But oh wait, we don't do this because even if parental negligence were a factor in any of the above, those things don't automatically make a child at odds with society's perception of beauty. Because that's what this shit is really about at the end of the day, is people's juvenile discomfort with those who don't fit the accepted standard of beauty. Otherwise you'd see the fat-haters attacking every other group of people with diseases that can be caused by lifestyle. But it's so much easier to attack an already-hated group of people, plus it's a great way to feel morally superior while probably doing many things yourself that are extremely unhealthy.

Also, it's worth noting that this out-of-control fatphobia also comes back and bites skinny people in the ass. I'm about 5 feet four inches and a size 5, and I've been called fat. It may be TMI, but I try to take a dump right before getting weighed at the doctor because I'm afraid that I'll be told I'm overweight; more and more of my not-fat-seeming friends seem to be getting told that all the time by doctors who are beholden to the pharmaceutical industry. It's getting to the point where a lot of people I know are forgoing doctor visits to avoid the shame.

(Not to go too far off topic, but doctors seem really locked into seizing on some "deviant" part of a person's identity and pegging that as a cure for what's wrong with them. Like, I've just stopped going to the doctor whenever I have fits of nausea because they always assume I'm pregnant. Even if I say I haven't had sex in a year they just think I'm lying and refuse to come up with anything else. I could have a brain tumor, but unless my brain is located in my uterus no doctor will ever think to look there.)

I think it's great that this gym exists. That way, just maybe, at least some of the asshole jerks at other gyms would leave for this jerk-tastic anti gym. Then they can all hit on/abuse eachother or whatever it is jerks like this do. This would hopefully somewhat reduce the number of jerks at my gym, making for a much freindlier work out environment.

The problem, of course, is the abussive commercials being broadcasted to multitudes of viewers, encouraging yet MORE abuse towards overweight people, especially women. I hate people too...

This is exactly the problem. She spoke in absolutes (what you refer to as using 'fat' as a synonym for 'unhealthy'), and that was a mistake.

Yes, it was. It was a mistake, in that it was wrong and also inaccurate, and also offensive.

Her detractors did not care enough to look at the remainder of her comments on this thread to realize that she didn't actually MEAN to use the terms as synonymous.

Why is it other people's responsibility to reinterpret her words? She obviously didn't care enough to, you know, stop equating the two. When you do something offensive, it's your responsibility to correct it.

“Did you really think that she thinks that 'fat' is synonymous with 'unhealthy?' “

PaperCup, while I am seldom mistaken for a supermodel, I fit into a “preferred body type� well enough and get a lot of positive reinforcement regarding my figure. I’ve been fat, I’ve been skinny, and I’ve been all sorts of in-betweens so I’ve been in a position to look at this issue from many different angles. I found raginfem's comments hurtful and offensive and I think she revealed a very judgmental attitude about fat people. Being willing to concede that there are people who are fat and fit and genetically prone to be bigger who actually exist in the world doesn’t give much ground. No, she wasn’t saying fat and unhealthy were literally “synonymous,� but she clearly asserts that MOST fat people are fat by choice and need to be told the “truth� about their unhealthy lifestyles. It was abusive and condescending on many levels, it would be under any circumstances but in light of the content of this post it was especially so. Why should she have the right to go unchallenged when she chose to make these statements in an opportunistic manner since this is a post about the grotesque indignities fat people are subjected to in this society? The very indignities that are fueled in part by the ignorant assumptions raginfem was espousing! I’m pasting some of what she said throughout this thread below (I know others have done so and I apologize for the repetitiveness) I’d like to understand where you’re coming from when you suggest these statements were within the realm of reasonable discourse and should have been taken more seriously.

“Unlike your racial status or sexual orientation, you actually CAN control your weight to a very large extent. Yes, genetics plays a part, but most people who are overweight eat too much or exercise too little...it's just a fact.�

“In the '70s there were not nearly as many obese children and guess what - those people probably had similar genes to what people today have, even in the same families. Most kids I know who are obese stuff their faces all day with absolute crap and don't exercise.�

“I guess for me, being a woman or being a different race or being gay are not bad things. But being overweight...they don't exercise, don't eat well, etc. - and that's just not good for overall quality of life.�

“Any nutritionist will tell you that weight gain happens when metabolic input exceeds output...if you eat more calories than you're burning, you'll gain weight.� (Note from me - I’m Shocked! Shocked! that people whose careers depend on the diet industry would tell you that!)

“...because I'm expressing an opinion about unhealthy living habits I'm told by you that I'm prejudiced. Right. Well, I'm sorry I didn't jump on the bandwagon and make as many excuses as possible for overweight people so that they'd feel better about themselves. Making excuses for unhealthy people isn't going to make them get any better, whether they smoke, drink, overeat or undereat. Personal responsibility is awfully hard to come by in our society right now and I'm tired of it.�

I'd pretty much decided to just let this one go on without me and just follow the comments, but...

ponies and rainbows: In a later post I changed my stance and stated that people were right in saying such legislation would be a waste of time and money needed for other, more important child abuse issues.

Also, if this were a thread about another "disease" caused by lifestyle as you describe, we would ALL be discussing the problems of that lifestyle and how to decrease the incidence of the disease. Now, obesity (medical obesity, not societal) is not a disease (a symptom of one sometimes, but not a disease itself), but it puts you at higher risk for several conditions. While the jerks who made this commercial clearly care only about appearance, I know I for one worry about rising obesity rates because they will lead to potentially preventable health problems.

My point, I suppose, is that while there are people who truly dislike overweight people merely for not fulfilling their definition of attractive, not everyone who says obesity is unhealthy is doing so for that reason.

PaperCup asks:

Is it solely because I fit into society's preferred standards for body type and you do not?

Yes.

I've always considered myself a feminist, but I didn't "get" feminism until I shut up and started listening to women. When I did, I realized that while I had decent intentions, I still was falling short of ideal on a whole host of fronts. Quite simply, it's difficult for a man to understand what it's like to be a woman in this society without listening to women. Also, it's difficult to understand what it's like to be a minority in this society without listening to people of color, it's difficult to understand what it's like being L, G, B, or T without talking to someone who is, and it's difficult to understand what it's like to be fat in this society without listening to fat people.

You have to understand that for those of us who are fat, we have been hearing for as long as we've been overweight how unhealthy we are, how lazy we are, how we need to get up off our fat asses and go to the gym once in a while. That isn't a message we get occasionally on a site -- that's a constant drumbeat that permeates our culture. Fat people are ugly. We can't be the objects of sexual desire. We'll probably end up alone, because we're so fat. And then we'll die early, and it's all our fault.

Raginfem hit all the notes we've heard from fat-bashers throughout our lives. I understand that may not be her intent, but she's obviously deeply internalized the fat=evil message our society puts out. I don't blame her for that; all of us have, including all of the fat people here. But just as internalizing racism is no excuse for behaving in a racist manner, internalizing anti-fat prejudice is no excuse for behaving in a fat-shaming manner.

Jessica put it well above -- it's not the responsibility of the oppressed to teach the oppressor. I learned about feminism by shutting up and listening to women, and not ignoring what they said, and not accusing them of being overly sensitive, and not assuming that their pain was something that could be ignored. I learned about racism by shutting up and listening, about homophobia by shutting up and listening, about transphobia by shutting up and listening.

Sometimes, you have to shut your mouth when someone tells you that you've offended them, and listen to the reasons they give, and believe them. Asking questions is fine, engaging in dialog is fine. But simply throwing out an offensive statement and getting huffy about being called on it is not fine, and I'm not going to pretend it is.

I've learned over the last few years that the only statement on the internet that I should be personally offended by is "Basiorana should not be allowed to share her opinions."

This statement does not absolve anyone of responsibility for their statements nor is it intended to in any way cheapen anyone's feelings on this or any other subject. However, it is a philosophy I have found helpful for my own contentment.

Basiorana,you see fat people and you feel it's okay to make all sorts of assumptions about their health. You want to be "honest" with them to aid in their recovery from what you view as a bad state to be in. I'm willing to give you the benefit of a doubt that you're well intentioned. But there's something you're not getting:

FAT PEOPLE ARE TOLD THAT THEY'RE FAT EVERY DAY OF THEIR LIFE!

They're told by family. They're told by friends. They're told by total strangers in the most disgusting ways. They're told by their doctors and are often denied decent medical care until they reach unrealistic weight expectations. Some subject themselves to starvation or risky surgery in attemepts to lose weight.

People who are fat are not children. They make decisions about their health every day just like thin people. Some are healthy and fit, some are not, that's true of everyone. I am going to assume you're not homophobic and if you had gay neighbors you wouldn't be disturbed by all the gay sex going on in the privacy of their own home. So don't worry if your fat neighbors are eating Ben & Jerry's! It's none of your business.

I urge you and like-minded feminists to let go of your predjudices about fat people and trust that people of all shapes and sizes are capable of being healthy and happy.

My dad is an endocrinonlogist who is the head of the weight loss clinic at UAMS in Little Rock. He was Mike Huckabee's doctor a couple of years ago during Huck's pre-marathon days (my dad is also an ultra-liberal, and fully aware that he's been a big contributor to that campaign......ick. But naturally the health of the patient must come first regardless of any political points they gain from losing 150 lbs). While there's no way I could call myself an expert on this stuff, I have learned a decent amount from reading his research over the years.

Though an average BMI is between 20 and 25, that does not necessarily mean that a person who does not fit into those limits is unhealthy. Everybody has their own "norm." Some people could never get below 27 no matter how hard they tried. It is just how they are built.

Also, extra fat in a body in itself is not what makes being obese unhealthy. It is the metabolic reaction of the body that is the problem. This is the age old question that my dad's research focuses on. He can have one patient who is 300 lbs, but who is metabolically normal. He/she is not insulin resistant; he/she has cholesterol in the normal range; he/she has normal blood pressure. And then there is a patient who is 50 lbs overweight and their body just goes crazy. He/she is diabetic, has hypertension, and they are essentially a heart attack waiting to happen. It's insane.

I know many people have talked about how many people, despite healthy habits are just overweight, and that's that, and I wanted to say that I totally agree. My best friend since I was 8 is one of those people. Her mom is a doctor and ex-hippie who has never bought anything that wasn't ridiculously healthy and organic. My friend was always playing some sport or another. She was very active in soccer, basketball, and volleyball. Her whole life she has struggled with her weight.
In contrast, I was really skinny growing up. I could eat whatever I wanted, and had serious issues finding pants that would fit my tall, thin frame.

Sorry that this post probably seems really ADD, my thoughts are really scattered due to an obscene calculus exam I had today. Ultimately, I feel that people too often equate weight with metabolic health. While there is a correlation, it is not exact, and everybody has a norm for their own body.

We can all agree that abuse probably isn't a good method to combat obesity, but I'd like to think we can agree that being overweight is something to combat. Does society set unreasonable standards at some points? Sure, but that doesn't mean that no standards should exist. We have scientific knowledge of what weight levels are healthy and are unhealthy. If we agree that things like anorexia are bad, can't we also agree that being overweight is a bad thing? I don't think there's any case where it's GOOD to be overweight unless you're an Inuit living off fat reserves.

As for the genetic argument, some people are more genetically prone to be overweight. Still, why is it that this seems to be an excuse more often than not? My family history of heart disease and diabetes is a reason for me to eat better and exercise more than the regular public. It's like regular breast exams when you have a family history of breast cancer, or a colonoscopy when you have a family history of colon cancer.

As for people of all shapes and sizes being able to be happy and healthy, I disagree. I think you can be happy at nearly any weight, but health is a different story. If we can argue that people should use things like condoms not to spread STD's, how can we say that any weight lets you live a healthy life? That's just not true!

Yes, we should not have prejudices against fat people, but it's not prejudice to call being fat unhealthy. In nearly every case it's quite true. Smoking is bad for you. Unprotected sex is bad for you. Being overweight is bad for you. It does worry me if my neighbors are overweight and eating ice cream all the time, because I'd like to see my neighbors live a while longer, and being overweight puts that in jeopardy. There's a difference between prejudice and concern for one's fellow human beings.

So no, we don't need to inundate overweight people with criticism, nor abuse them, nor attack them. But the truth is, a third of the public is dangerously unhealthy. Something needs to be done, because just because you're capable of living a healthy life doesn't mean you're doing so.

I watched bad eating habits and little exercise kill my grandfather and nearly kill my father. Trust me, you don't want to see it happen to anyone you know. If my comment can help someone take steps to changing their life for the better it's my obligation to do so. The overweight deserve our support, but they deserve the truth.

"If we agree that things like anorexia are bad, can't we also agree that being overweight is a bad thing? I don't think there's any case where it's GOOD to be overweight unless you're an Inuit living off fat reserves."

Did you read any of the rest of the comments on this thread before you decided to post? No, we can't all agree that it's bad to be overweight. Even scientists don't agree, as the study posted multiple times above attests.

There may be "a difference between prejudice and being concerned for one's fellow human beings" but there is no difference between your 'concern' and being patronizing to adults who do not require your kind concern. So please feel free to keep it to yourself.

How did you feel about the commercial? It was awful, wasn't it? Did you think it was awful? Because that's what this is about.

Thanks, Dave! I had no idea that people think being fat is unhealthy! Okay, this week we heard the news that it isn't, but still, you know better than science.

I surely appreciate your concern for me, despite the fact that you don't know anything about me. After all, I'm fat, and therefore it's my fault I'm fat, and so you have the right -- nay, the obligation! -- to tell me I'm wrong.

Sorry if I seem a mite sarcastic, but you can't be fat-accepting and rant about how unhealthy it is and say that it's unhealthy "in nearly every case."

I could tell you where to stick your deep and heartfelt concern, but frankly, it's late, and I'm tired of defending my right to exist. But I can tell you your comment has motivated me to go get dinner, and pissed me off, to boot.

Incidentally, after dinner, I'm going to go to the gym and exercise -- but I'm sure that it's still my fault for being so gosh-darned fat.

If we agree that things like anorexia are bad, can't we also agree that being overweight is a bad thing?

Anorexia is an eating disorder. It involves serious emotional problems and always results in severe self-destruction. Being "overweight" is in nowhere near the same category. Being "overweight" doesn't involve any serious emotional problems (at least, no more than just being alive and human involves), and it isn't an all-out onslaught of destruction on one's body. Surely you can see a major difference in actually starving oneself of necessary nutrients and being chubby?

There are eating disorders which involve binge eating and overeating. Those are unhealthy. They're not at all the same as being overweight.

If my comment can help someone take steps to changing their life for the better it's my obligation to do so.

What a weird, narcissistic fantasy. Let me get this straight: fat people are badgered by family, "friends," acquaintances, the mass media every day of their lives. They're harrassed on the street, at appointments. Nonetheless, they do their best, as do we all, to take care of themselves. And in your fantasy, you make this post that indicates that you really haven't read any of the previous comments, or you say to your next-door neighbors "Hey, you guys are fat! Did you know that's unhealthy?" and...what? What do you imagine happening? The readers here and/or your neighbors smack themselves on the forehead and exclaim "Thank goodness somebody revealed The Truth to me! I will immediately go out and lose weight. It's just that I never tried before. Thank goodness for Dave!"

Have you even been reading the number of overweight people here who describe a remarkably high level of physical activity?

Rose: Actually, I very rarely think one way or another about a person's weight. Only that of my family, because I worry about them because I KNOW their health is affected.

I worry about rising obesity rates because I want to go into medicine and that means more people with health problems relating to obesity, and I would find it HARD to have to say to someone "If we attempt this surgery at your weight you will most likely die." Knowing what that would do to them emotionally is a problem for me. But unless I am their doctor, I will not make any attempt to "help" obese people unless for some reason they come to me first and ASK. I don't care if my neighbor's obese.

I don't use "fat" for a reason-- "fat" in our society ranges from normal and healthy but a bit chubby all the way to bedridden. I worry about OBESITY. Heck, according to society I'm "fat" myself.

Contrary to your belief, simply worrying about preventable health problems common to a body type does not make me prejudiced against that body type. I treat and regard obese people exactly the same way I treat and regard thin people. I won't do so when I am their doctor for the same reason I won't treat a woman the same as a man or an Ashkenazi Jew the same as an Irish person-- they are prone to different diseases or conditions. The difference is that with a great deal of effort and sometimes, some help an obese person can reduce their tendency towards those conditions and possibly save their life.

Dave: I think you mean "obese" not "overweight," there is a difference, and studies have clearly stated that obesity causes health problems, but just being overweight may not.

And everyone, my goal was never to make anyone feel bad about their weight. I wish to apologize to anyone who took my comments as such.

I'm guessing Dave is 17 (and from New Jersey, per his moniker) and I'm willing to give him a little more leeway than I might to someone older.

Dave, I think that you are right to make any kind of decision you like about your own weight, and you can take whatever measures you deem necessary to keep yourself healthy and happy. You need to learn to extend that courtesy to every other adult. Please know that just because people are not exactly like you does not mean that they are wrong or unhealthy or in need of correction. And please know that not every overweight person is just like your father or grandfather. Learn to extend to others the respect that I'm sure you would like to receive in return.

The ad is disgusting. Prejudice against fat people is a terrible thing. If in fact they are unhealthy, they already know it and probably feel bad enough about it.

I'm of the belief that people should make an effort to maintain a healthy weight. If that healthy weight is considered "fat" by stupid people -- remember how many people called Britney fat after the VMAs? -- then that's their problem and they should get over it. If getting to that healthy weight is difficult, than that's for the person to deal with on his or her own, preferably without having to deal with fat prejudice as well.

I do think it's important for parents to try to make their kids eat healthy, at least at home if not at school. And yeah, baby fat exists. After a certain age it goes away, so don't be too quick to judge "chubby" kids. I was one of them until I was five or six and I'm quite thin now. A lot of my friends who might have been "chubby" in fourth grade are now thinner than I am.

Parents should focus on eating right, rather than on looking right. Making sure your kid is healthy is more important than making sure your kid grows up to be a size 2.

I can only speak for myself, but as a thin person, this ad (and some of the attitudes espoused in this thread) actually make me ASHAMED that I fit society's prescribed body type. I don't want the approval of ignorant, heartless, and in the case of the guy from the gym, truly morally bereft and disgusting people. I don't want to be lumped in with people who consider themselves morally superior because they take up less horizontal space, and I don't care how AMAZING people feel when they work out. It doesn't make you that special.

And how sad is it that this strategy works for some people, like Nick suggested? That it's more motivating to scream, "Faster, you fat piece of shit!" than it is to scream, "Faster, you wimp! Snails are faster than you!" or even, "Faster! Your pulse is barely elevated!" for the person who wants that kind of aggressive motivation? It's a sign of our shitty priorities. (Yes, those were crappy examples, but that's not the point, and I'm not a personal trainer.)

I don't know why people are arguing over how 'being overweight is unhealthy' as if that has ANYTHING TO DO with the point of this ad.

It's cruel, inhumane treatment of someone, period. Of a whole class of people actually, since this guy makes a pattern of being an royal asshat to fat people just because they're fat. That's indefensibly wrong.

BTW, *thank you* EG, for saying all the stuff I'm too angry to think of (and probably wouldn't have thought of anyway). Hopefully your reasoned approach will get through to some of the folks who just aren't hearing what's being said here.

"That's exactly why I'm not coming on this site anymore."

Oh my goodness. Those with such INCREDIBLY thin skin probably should throw the first stone.

Just a tip - don't attack others if you can't handle them disagreeing with you.

wow. I've missed alot on this thread. It's really depressing to see the continued stereotypes and nonesense that some people actually believe about peoples personal weight. But I am glad that there are some people with some sense on here. Everyone needs to realise the truth and that is, that your personal size can mean varying things on your health. For instance, it apprears that a lof of people commenting believe that any amount of over-weightness is a sign of bad health and thats just not so. I can certainly understand that obesity will affect your health, but its as if people do not understand what the term obesity actually means. There is a huge difference between carrying an extra 0 pounds and carrying a the double of your healthy body weight. It's as if people can't seperate obesity and being fit, as if there is no middle range of weight gain, which there most deffinently is. Those middle ranges of over-weight have very little affect on your health. Furthermore, there are certain standards to determine whether someone who is over-weight is actually at risk of desease. Have you never heard of waist to hip ratio?

And as many people have said before, this article isn't about whether or not someone is healthy as a justification to be absuive... it's about how abuse is always wrong. jeese. we're sapose to be doing society justice as feminists. Can someone pull out the feminist handbook please?

Can't this whole thing be dispensed with the simple suggestion that so long as you are medically fit (having all diagnostic readings in the appropriate areas, being able to exert oneself to the average of one's demographic, and otherwise displaying no adverse medical effects), you can be whatever weight you want?

And that if you are not medically fit, you should undertake those lifestyle changes necessary to become so, whether this is involves gaining or losing weight or changing diet or whatever?

I fail to see how wishing that people of all weights were healthier equates to some sort of health-paternalism; I'm certainly not kicking down anyone's door and forcing them to get on the treadmill or, conversely, to start weight-buffing diets.

I'm a size 18, 6 feet tall, 230 lbs. and I overheard my doctor (after my physical) tell the med students with him that I was a good example of someone who is VERY healthy!
I was worried because well, my ass, you know...blah blah, but he was teaching other doctors to see me as an example of what is healthy and normal!

"Then again, isn't that what men like this anti-gym guy want: passive women with whom sex is rape-like?"

whaaat?

There is a huge difference between carrying an extra 0 pounds and carrying a the double of your healthy body weight.

Frogqueen, I don't want to sound like I'm attacking you, and I'm sure you think that you're being moderate here, but really, you're just moving the discrimination line up a few pounds. You can't tell how healthy a person is just by looking at their weight, or their BMI, or even their hip-waist ration. You also definitely can't tell how they eat or exercise, or what they've done in the past to lose weight. There are obese people who eat very healthy and exercise much more than I ever could, and there are many, many obese people who have tried every diet possible, some even going as far as weight loss surgery, to watch that all fail and they're still obese. To tell them they'd be healthier if they weren't obese is like telling me I'd be healthier if I didn't have asthma. Probably, but it doesn't matter because it's not going to happen. Maybe you'll find an obese person who'd be thinner if they ate less ice cream or something, but you can't know that just by knowing they're obese, and even if you did know that it's not your business anyways. Health is not a moral requirement. Judging people for their personal choices, especially when you don't know what those choices are, is just not cool.

Here's a concept, raginfem:

You worry about your health, and I'll worry about mine!

Are you the parent of anyone commenting on this site? Of any fat person on the street?

If not, then keep quiet and mind your own business. Who assigned you the repsponsibility of wringing your hands and rending your garments over the ill-health of all those poor, ignorant fat people who are unwittingly damaging their bodies?

Here's my suspicion: Scratch a "but I'm so worried about fat people's health" comment, find "I think fat people are disgusting and I'm hiding behind my 'concern' for stangers' health to make judgmental proclamations."

1 - The commercial is nasty, disgusting and offensive on so many levels that I won't even bother to go into here...

2 - Speaking from personal experience; when I severerly restricted my food intake and coupled it with diet pills and alcohol (from 14 - 18 years old) I stayed relatively small (albeit a size 14). But, when I was forced to let the drugs & alcohol go and eat normally and take care of myself....guess what? I gained weight...and am now, what this asshat (on the commercial) and others, would definitely consider "fat"...

Minervasp73!
Wonder twin powers activate! I'm a bit less healthy but there's not a lot of 6ish 200+ women around.

Barisona, if you are going into medicine you’re going to have to tell people of ALL sizes that the surgery they’re about to have might kill them. That’s just a fact. If you can’t emotionally handle that you have no business going into that field. And if you believe that slim people don’t need to be informed of surgical risks because of how healthy their weight looks to you, it would make you both incompetent and dangerous!

Also, I deliberately use the word “fat� and not “obese.� The word obese has an air of scientific authority to it, as though by saying someone is obese instead of fat, you’re distinguishing between an appearance issue and a health issue. Obesity is related to as a disease, and therefore you can paint yourself as a concerned citizen who simply wants to cure people in a diseased state. Did you know that the Latin root is the word for the past participle of "To Eat" and the prefix "ob" would mean "on account of?� Hence it’s not simply a neutral, medical term, it’s a word wrought with judgment. Fat describes how some people are and look, and it’s a perfectly good description. It only becomes a “bad� word when it’s (ab)used in a derogatory manner.

“We can all agree that abuse probably isn't a good method to combat obesity, but I'd like to think we can agree that being overweight is something to combat.�

DaveNJ17 - Um, no, actually, I don’t agree. And if you actually read and comprehended a great deal of posts on this thread you would see that there are plenty of people feel the same way that I do. Either you’re not listening at all to those who disagree with your assessment or you have some basic literacy problems. I find your response to my ice cream analogy quite funny and telling. The very mention that fat people might enjoy some ice cream now and again (just like thin people do) somehow got translated into eating it “all the time.� Do you see no prejudice in feeling completely confident that you can look at someone and know their health issues? Isn't there some bias to believing you can know how much a person eats and exercises without knowing a single thing about them except for their weight?

I could point all of you to many sources that would shed some light on this issue. These are people who are researching the issue on facts, not assumptions, and who are not in the pocket of the multi-billion dollar diet industry. Read Paul Campos’ The Diet Myth, Gina Kolata’s Rethinking Thin, the blog Junkfood Science, Kate “the Great� Harding’s essay on Shapley Prose, Don’t You Know Fat Is Unhealthy?

But I don’t think you want to look beyond what you feel with certainty is THE TRUTH. So for the sake of argument, let’s say all your assumptions about fat people really are all true. They eat like gluttons. They never exercise. They never eat healthy things and their diet consists of only fast foods and copious amounts of ice cream. Okay. Now what? No really, what would you suggest be done to “combat� overweight people?

Education – check. Some schools are even putting out BMI report cards now, so that children can be shamed, oops, sorry, I mean be encouraged to live a healthy lifestyle in front of all their classmates.

Taxing fast foods – Well it’s in the works. Increasing the share of the tax burden for poor people. What can be more healthy or wholesome than a method that uniquely all American!

State sanctioned monitoring of eating habits? Okay, but don’t complain when the state sanctioned monitoring your sex life is next. I mean, Dave, someone out there might be having unprotected sex, so in the name of public health wouldn’t the monitoring of all our sex lives be a good way to stop the spread of STDs, including HIV/AIDS?

Ask yourselves what kind of society you want us to have. One in which ALL PEOPLE are treated as equals and with respect no matter what. Or one in which we support Big Brother methods of controlling people who you think are incapable of controlling themselves.

I’m warning you, once you open that door there’s no closing it and you leave us all more vulnerable to fascism. That’s why this is both a feminist and a progressive issue and it’s not going away anytime soon no matter how much you remind us that you find other human being’s bodies to be unhealthy burdens to society that are in need of correction.

Here's my feeling about it.

I'm willing to say obesity is a health problem. I'm willing to say it's a serious health problem. All other things being equal, a person who used to be 120 lbs and healthy being 200 lbs at the exact same height is probably not healthy anymore.

But I'm *not* willing to say that it is enough under the control of the individual that fat-shaming or even the patronizing "did you know that being fat is bad for your health? did you try eating less ice cream?" attitude is of any value whatsoever. What needs to change is Corporate America. Because what is making us fat is high-fructose corn syrup in absolutely everything, bigger portion sizes (research shows that even people who know about the phenomenon and know they're in a study looking for the phenomenon will *still* eat more of a larger portion), longer commutes, less free time, fewer safe places for children and adults to get physical activity. The fact that Americans were a lot thinner overall 30 years ago is a *glaring* sign that we are dealing with a societal problem, not an individual problem. Expecting individuals who are fat to will themselves thin is like expecting people who are poor to will themselves rich. It *can* happen but the deck is so heavily stacked against it that it's totally cruel to expect it of people.

So yes, I want to look at obesity as a health problem, but not from the perspective of "fatty fat, go on a diet!" Diets don't work. And lifestyle changes are fucking *hard* when the world around you isn't really interested in offering you much support or assistance in maintaining your lifestyle. The world we live in needs to change to make it easier to have and maintain healthy eating and exercising habits. Any more than it's the fault of an individual woman for being overwhelmed and unhappy because there isn't enough support for her to be both a mother and a corporate worker, there are *social* issues at work and people should focus their energy on changing *them*, not changing the individual person.

BTW, given that being fat is often a natural outgrowth of behavior that Americans actually valorize -- getting no sleep and working your ass off at a difficult but fairly high-paying job -- the relentless conflation of "fat" with "lazy" is really incredibly disturbing and unfair. Sacrificing your own health to make money for your family is a time-honored American tradition; to find time to exercise and eat well, often something else has to give. Maybe America needs to work on its mindless valorization of work for pay and its Puritan notions that sleep and free time are dispensable.

I seriously want to cry. This brings back all kinds of awful memories from when I was the chubby kid in elementary school and got made fun of and humiliated on a daily basis.

I'm still a big girl and though I am in the process of losing weight (19 pounds so far, woot) I am not doing it to find a hubby or any of that other crap and I am insulted that he would insinuate that that's the only reason to do so. I also never ate cupcakes watching Oprah or used a "thyroid problem" as an excuse not to do anything. I simply wasn't mentally in a place where I was ready to lose weight, and now I am.

Alara--

That's an actually sensible and sane way to approach why we may be gaining weight as a society. What is it doing on this thread? :P

Roni: Minervasp73!
Wonder twin powers activate! I'm a bit less healthy but there's not a lot of 6ish 200+ women around.

Count me in as another 6' and 200+ pounds woman! Of course, that ruins the cool Wonder Twins reference.

WOW!

This post has blown up since yesterday.

Listen, PAI is correct, how/why/if people are large has nothing to do with the post. It is irrelevant.

But, we're now on a subject that is debated everywhere--why so many Americans are large. Well, I'd say it has a lot to do with the sugars in the food we eat. Just like it has a lot of do with our sedintary, car loving, lifestyle. Just like it has a lot to do with the person. There is no one element to blame, but many.

As I said above, my sister is obese. She and I have vastly different diets.

She loves fast food. I only eat it when I really want it or driving far distances.

She loves drinking regular soda. I drink diet.

She loves snacks. I hardly ever snack (except Thanksgiving when I can house a Fruits of the Forest pie from Springdale Farms in NJ).

She likes being driven places. I walk 3 miles home from work almost every night.

That doesn't mean it is her fault she is larger than me. Even as children she was larger. Always has been. It means, she isn't helping the situation by eating bad food and drink, hardly any movement and lifestyle.

While I'll agree there is many contriibuting factors to obesity, "self" seems to be one of them.

Granted, I'm not a doctor or scientist. I don't have a professional opinion. I don't preach to her about her weight, unlike her smoking, which I do! But, if that guy from the gym did that to my sister, like I said yesterday, it would NOT be pretty.

Wow... so much anger! So much self-righteousness! So many excuses and so much blame from both sides of the argument.
Isn't it a little sad that there are more comments on this post because of the issue of weight than there often are on feminist issues, especially considering that this is a feminist website?
Weight is a very difficult issue for many people, and so is health. Sometimes, they are connected, for both physical and mental reasons, and sometimes they are not. It is awful the amount of discrimination that occurs because of weight. It is also awful that anyone who is concerned about the health of someone else can be told they are hurtful or offensive, just for trying to approach the topic. While nobody truly has the right to intrude upon another person's life or choices, let's keep in mind that this issue does extend to more than just the personal feelings we may or may not have. Obesity is a real problem for many people in this country and must be faced, one way or another, and that it will take a lot of maturing and knowledge to face it with dignity for EVERYONE.
That being said, to return to the original topic of the post... are there actually any WOMEN at that gym? Because I cannot imagine going there, being stared at, getting told I'm never thin enough, seeing women objectified, and actually paying for the experience. Ugh. There was a time I may have bought into the societal ideal that being skinny meant being attractive, successful, and healthy, but we've all been shown that's not necessarily true. I can't imagine walking into a gym like that and feeling good about myself, for any reason.

And how sad is it that this strategy works for some people, like Nick suggested?

@prairielily: Yeah, that's one of the directions I kinda wanted to see this discussion move in. Because there *are* people who apparently want/need that kind of abuse to force themselves to exercise. Heck, there's an entire gym full of them! And like Marissa said, at least they're all in a gym with each other, and not crowding my gym with me.

Whenever I see an advertisement like that my first thought is usually something like "my god...this apparently works for people so well, that it generates a reasonable risk/reward ratio to spend money on telling more people about it. Terrifying."

But it makes you think about your own priorities as well. If you work your life so that you exercise regularly, no matter how liberated you think you are there's always a little part of you asking "why?" Do I skip lunch twice a week for yoga, get home late twice a week for Krav Maga, and try to get out on weekends to play tennis, or at least to the batting cages for an hour, because it makes me feel good and I want to be healthy? Or am I doing this because, subconsciously, there's a large part of me that insists I maintain a certain culturally mandated body shape? For me, I came to peace with this for myself a while ago. I see the way the male romantic leads fit into their clothes, and I'd like to approximate that myself (totally not there, but one can dream). And it has the nice side effect of giving me a bit more energy than I have when I'm not doing such things, and I guess theoretically making me healthier than I would be if I wasn't regularly exercising. But really, my motivation is more the body shape bit.

Sad? Yeah, a bit. But I'm at peace with it, because my personal expectations are only applied to myself, not to others. Which is what makes this commercial suck so bad. We can each be as cruel to ourselves as we can handle...but the moment we start being cruel to others a line has been crossed. IMO. I have similar feelings about evangelical religions.

"It is also awful that anyone who is concerned about the health of someone else can be told they are hurtful or offensive, just for trying to approach the topic."

Those who were told they were being hurtful and offensive – were being hurtful and offensive. Ignorance and bigotry must be countered. They "I'm just trying to help!" excuse for saying incredibly mean and clueless things doesn't fly.

When the topic is approached with "I don't hate you fatties, but you really need to lose weight because I heard somewhere on t.v. that fat was bad and even though I have absolutely no medical training whatsoever, I know EXACTLY what you need to do to be happy and healthy!" – how "caring" are they really?

Here's a novel idea for all those "I’m just concerned about your health" types – instead of preaching, how about *asking* the person if they are happy and/or healthy. Before deciding that you know what's best for them.

(not saying You, Nightingale, did these things.)

I don't use "fat" for a reason-- "fat" in our society ranges from normal and healthy but a bit chubby all the way to bedridden. I worry about OBESITY. Heck, according to society I'm "fat" myself.

See, part of the problem, Basiorana, that that "obesity" has that same range that "fat" does. I assume you are talking about obesity as defined by BMI, which is the most common definition right now, although one of the less accurate. You can be 180 lbs at 5'4", for example, with a 28" waist and no health problems or you can be immobile. Both are considered obese. So when you "enlighten" them about the dangers of fat, (because of course no fat person has heard that before and tried to fix it at some point in their lives, if not repeatedly) please look at all of the test results before deciding if they are obese and healthy or obese and "in need" of your poking them about it. Better yet, try to think up some new suggestions for losing that weight - maybe something they haven't tried yet. Best of luck with that one.

Society works better than any doctor for letting a person know when they fall outside the acceptable ranges of body size. They let us know over and over and over daily, so that our own minds tell us this every time we look in the damn mirror, where we may only go to the doctor every 4-6 years or so, when there is a problem that we would like advice about.

Everybody's got me all confused. When it comes to high heels and make up which are both proven to be bad for you nobody better say anything because feminism is about choice and we don't care about if it's bad for us or not, we know but it's still our choice, DAMN IT!

But if fat is a choice then all of a sudden we can talk about how unhealthy it is and how we should all agree it's bad to be fat because it's unhealthy and it's a choice... but everybody was just saying about how great it was to make a choice that was unhealthy just because you liked the way it made you feel and look?

I'm getting mixed messages here.

And also - whenever the whole "gay is a choice" thing comes up people generally ask the question "Why would anyone choose to be gay?" to prove that being gay is not a choice.

So I'd like to present that argument here. If being fat is a choice, given all the discrimination fat people face, how hard being fat might be, both emotionally and physically, why would anyone choose to be fat?

Marle, how is anything you just wrote to me, relevant to what I wrote? um.. *confusion*

If being fat is a choice, given all the discrimination fat people face, how hard being fat might be, both emotionally and physically, why would anyone choose to be fat?

Well, obviously fat people are just lazy and bad, and gay people are immoral and perverse. Jeez. Get with the program, already. (That's sarcasm, just in case anybody's reading quickly.)

Jessica, I want to thank you for this post, for being so clear-eyed about this issue and being able to see the kind of hate espoused by M------l K------k for what it is. Nobody deserves this kind of ritual public humiliation just for being the size and shape she is.

And shame on the radio and television stations that thought this hateful garbage was suitable to air. I mean, why don't they just go ahead and air KKK ads while they're at it, if it's really all about "free speech"?

And I want to thank the posters on this thread, most of whom have managed to refrain from the typical round of fat-bashing that usually accompanies a thread like this and show a good understand of fat-bashing as a feminist issue.

And for those few of you still stuck on the fat-people-are-all-lazy-gluttons-and-thus-deserve-whatever-abuse-they-get stereotype, I have a little social experiment for you. Next time you're at a mall or any other public place replete with us fatasses, I want you to approach any 10 fat white adult females you see and ask them if they was on a diet (i.e. being calorie restricted and forced to "exercise") by the time they were in the eighth grade. I'll bet you every single one of them will answer "yes." Now ask those same women how many of them were being dieted that same way by the fourth grade. If at least half of them don't answer "yes," I'll whip up a batch of chocolate chip cookies and substitute salt for the sugar.

"if they was on a diet," eek, subject-verb agreement lost in editing, sorry. Make that "if they [were] on a diet," if you're going to quote me.

Ailea: I don't think anyone goes into the doctor thinking "I'm thin" and is "enlightened" that they are obese (Although a surprising number of parents need to be enlightened if their children are-- but that's a completely different issue).

While I was talking about BMI, there are many other tests that can determine weight-related health and merely showing up as obese on the BMI charts does not actually prove a person is obese. A good doctor will understand that.

Good doctors bring up a patient's body condition briefly in regular checkups ("So do you exercise and eat healthy? Do you avoid unhealthy fad diets?" etc), and if they are coming in for a condition that either might be causing the weight or be caused by it. If a person says "I don't want to lose weight despite knowing all the potential risks and complications (if any) of being at my weight level," then doctors may not be able to do certain procedures on them, but they should let it go.

MirandaJay: Similarly, if someone comes in with leg problems common to heel wearers and they say "I wear high heels" I'm gonna tell them that's probably why.

I can accept that weight is a person's personal choice (well, unless they genuinely just CAN'T lose weight) but it is someone's personal choice if they want to drink alcohol in excess, too, and that doesn't mean we should all turn a blind eye to liver cirrhosis.

Regardless, though-- and I know that in replying to comments I have gotten off the true topic-- no one, whether thin, "normal," overweight, or obese-- should be stigmatized, humiliated, or abused due to their appearance. I see a lot of people assuming that since people are saying that obesity is unhealthy they are also saying that this commercial was in some way okay-- but it's not, and I don't think anyone really believes it is except for the pricks who go to that stupid gym.

"If a person says "I don't want to lose weight despite knowing all the potential risks and complications (if any) of being at my weight level..."

Basiorana, this is the last time I'll bother you about this, because, actually I don't think there's that much more to say and I'm getting seriously tired of this whole bs "debate". But do you see the assumptions you're making about people when you say that? That you believe people are stubbornly refusing to lose weight even though they know all the risks associated with it suggests that they're making a willfull and indeed a very bad choice in not losing weight.

What if sustaining weight loss for them involves living on less than 800 calories a day? What if it means taking dangerous diet pills? What if it means having to vomit up your food if you go over your "allotted" calories for the day?

These are not healthy behaviors. That most people ultimately make the choice to abandon dieting rather than abandoning their lives and yes, their HEALTH, in favor of dieting is a postive, life-affirming choice. It's simply and healthier, happier and more sane way to live.

Almost everyone knows at least one person who eats a lot of food and remains very skinny. According to your logic and the logic of some of the other posters here, the majority of those people must be closet bulemics. Why? Because if you believe calories in/calories out, you get fat if you eat fat, well, doesn't this also apply to the thin? How can such people even exist, except in tiny numbers, based on your position that weight is almost always determined by the number of calories you eat and how much you exercise?

Personally, I wouldn't want someone with your attidute regarding fat people treating me for illness. It's so important for people in the medical industry to get past their anti-fat biases and to get to know their patients on an individual basis without making assumptions. Given where you're at, I truly don't believe you're someone who will be capable of that, although I hope you'll develop in this area before you're in practice. Because while you'll fit in fine with the medical establishment's status quo, there are real, live human beings who are being harmed. They stop going to doctors because they can't take another lecture, the look of pity, and/or disgust in their eyes. And most of all they can't put themselves through anymore futile weight loss attempts in order to validated as human beings who are worthy of good medical care. Many of them, if faced with this choice, abandon seeking medical care. They don't know what else to do.

Doesn't the oath start with "First, do no harm?"

Trolling, in my experience, is when people intend to be hurtful, or to get a rise out of people.

Actually, that's "flaming." Trolling is subtler and can be intentional or not, but ultimately produces the same result--it derails the thread and gets everyone arguing about another (possibly semi-related) topic. "Trolls" usually accomplish this by introducing a tired, unoriginal argument that the commenter somehow thinks has never occured to anyone else. Which is part of what makes it offensive--in this instance, it's implied that "fat" people have all been living under a rock or something, and have therefore never had anyone say "But, being fat is unhealthy!" to them.

"Concern trolling" is a specific form of trolling wherein someone expresses a politically-correct-sounding "concern" related to the post or comments phrased in such a way that posters who failed to express that same "concern" feel obligated to defend themselves against the implied charge of insensitivity and/or ignorance. Thus they are baited into engaging in the same stale old argument, just like any other troll.

Another way that trolling differs from flaming is that flamers set out to offend everyone, whereas a troll may successfully win newbies to their side with their apparently "reasonable" arguments, because said newbies haven't been around long enough to recognize the standard troll song-and-dance.

As for the "fat" debate, I'm staying right out of it. Roymac usually has some good comments on the subject, and has done some excellent blog posts about it as well. Read those. As for me, apart from placing mental bets as to how long it will take before the concern trolls show up, I tend to ignore posts about weight and body image, save for the odd bit of snark. I just don't have the time.

I went from a thin but suicidally depressed person to a fat person on antidepressants (which have weight gain as a side effect, for those who didn't know). I'm off the meds now, but after years on, some of that weight is here to stay. Part of me hates it, but the logical part of me has decided that it's better to be fat, alive and happy than thin, depressed and dead. So I tend to ignore people who tell me I'm lazy, unhealthy, or that I choose to be fat, because I'd far rather be "fat" me today than "thin" me 10 years ago.

Some things are just more important.

How is reginfem being offensive? She made the distinction that you can have unhealthy skinny and overweight people, and that you can have healthy skinny and healthy overweight people. She made that distinction earlier in her posts torwards under_zenith comment.
Reginfem didnt say anything wrong. She ended her post by explaining she felt the anti-gym owner is a total asshole, gave antidotal evidence about obese people and witnessing their eating habits, and giving some proof concerning eating habits negative effect upon obese peoples lives ( such as the rising obesity epidemic in America). She commented that she did not feel she should tell others how to live their lives, and also that she does not judge them based on their weight. Reginfem explained that shes concerned for her obsese friends, and concerned for todays kids (as am I)because the rates of childhood obesity is rising. She explained its because kids are no longer getting outside and playing. I also say it has to do with the advertising industry and how they chronically shove junk food commercials down their throats. How is she being mean? Most people would agree with her statements and they are factually based.

Second, obesity IS unhealthy. Its not fun to be riding a motor-scooter because you cant walk long distances, or have to buy two airline seats because you cant fit into one. Overeating is an addiction in as much as smoking is. It physically starts to take over, and impairs life. Yes, I know some people dont find their life impaired because due to their weight and she said she expressed no worrys over them. She DID express worrys over people whose lives ARE impaired.

Gopher, both she and you are being "mean" by assuming that all "obesity" is a result of pathological behavior and self-destructiveness. We are not all "compulsive overeaters" stuffing our faces with junk night and day and not exercising. That is a stereotype as gross and demeaning and narrow-minded as the man-hating lesbian, the flaming gay guy who hates his mother, the atheist with no ethics, and so on.

You can always find people who conform to any stereotype; that's not the point. The point is that we should not be forced to jump through flaming hoops to prove we do not fit the stereotype in order to be treated like decent human beings. As for me, I could, if necessary, provide notes from a dozen different doctors explaining to you that I have a metabolic disorder, if you require that in order to get myself off the hook with you. But why should I need them?

Furthermore, even if you could prove that I did have an evil twin who was pounding boxes of Krispy Kremes without my knowledge, wouldn't you be curious as to why, instead of simply resenting me for existing? I don't know about you, but if I find out someone actually does have an eating disorder, my first reaction is generally not, "How dare they!"

Here is raginfem's first response in this thread, verbatim:

"The commercial is obviously disgusting, but I'm sorry, being fat does NOT make you a minority or victim of discrimination. I'm not saying people don't discriminate against overweight people, but they also discriminate against blondes, bald guys, etc. - calling yourself a minority because you're fat is taking it too far. Unlike your racial status or sexual orientation, you actually CAN control your weight to a very large extent. Yes, genetics plays a part, but most people who are overweight eat too much or exercise too little...it's just a fact. Comparing being fat to being a racial minority demeans the meaning of what it is to be a minority.

How do I know I'm gonna get flamed for saying that?"

Do you still wonder why people took offense?

She responded to an argument nobody made when she got upset about fat people calling themselves a minority. By doing this she changed the subject of the thread away from the responses to the commercial and started in on what seems to be a pet topic of hers. People already smarting from the extremely triggering commercial responded with understandable offense, and rather than concede that they had a point she argued and argued and argued. She made bad points and didn't concede them when she was proven wrong. And then she cried about having been attacked and misunderstood. That's what happened. See?

And Gopher, if you can't understand why people who have just watched that commercial want to take the head off the next person who comes along all *concerned* about obesity and health then you deserve to have your head taken off. You really deserve it.

Wow. That is probably the vilest ad I have ever seen. Glad I don't live in Denver, or I might be tempted to run this guy over with my car. Then back up. Then push a pie in his face.
Now excuse me, but this "bearded lady" needs to stock up on mustache wax, throw away the antiperspirant and get cupcakes for my Oprah marathon.

Xana: I didn't mean to be judgmental. All I meant is that sex can be good regardless of body type. What pissed me off most about the ad and the gym website is that it implies that skinny people must have better sex. I was just suggesting that people who don't properly feed themselves just might not have the energy necessary for exhilarating sex; that doesn't seem such an outlandish statement to me.

Second, obesity IS unhealthy. Its not fun to be riding a motor-scooter because you cant walk long distances, or have to buy two airline seats because you cant fit into one.

*sighs* People who can't walk long distances because of their weight are a tiny, tiny minority of obese people. 99% of the obese people I know have no trouble getting around. Most of us are even capable of things like running, swimming, biking, dancing. Please, make an effort to educate yourself before you come on here spouting your fat-hating nonsense.

In addition to my incredulity that such a place/person exists, I'm incredulous that people could think either the ads / the very existence of the "anti-gym" (which as others have pointed out, is a complete misnomer and from the web site looks like something putrid that Joe Francis shat out of his equally aggressive, self-loathing ass) or the broader prejudice against overweight/obese/fat people AREN'T FEMINIST ISSUES. Are you serious? Even if it were not disproportionately targeting and aiming to humiliate women on the basis of their body type and *marrying potential*, anytime social power is leveraged against or taken away from a group on the basis of some perceived "deviation" from a cultural norm or desired social standard (hmmm...who gets to set those again? oh yeah) you'd better believe it's a feminist issue. Whenever someone's personal autonomy is intruded upon (unsolicited, patronizing advice or comments; assumptions about morality or worth or personal characteristics) so that someone can feel more comfortable in their own social dominance and privilege and *rightness*, it's a fucking feminist issue.

My only consolations are that I am fairly confident no such bullshit legislation would ever pass, and (hopefully?) there will never be a large enough client pool to sustain something like the anti-gym for any significant amount of time (or if there is, once said clientele pass a certain age or maturity level, those people can be *deprogrammed* and help deprogram future anti-gym clientele).

Vervain, you don't know me at all, but I always love your comments and insights here (I will never forget "poor richard" in particular), so count me as someone else who is glad you are alive and happy.

So where can we email Anti-Gym to tell them we're Anti Anti-Gym?

Just a few days ago I had to give a talk on fat prejudice. I discussed all manner of harm it does people fat and skinny, healthy and eating-disordered. The time came for questions. Instead of questions, I received several comments on how the activists and skinny-scare targets on my slides were unattractively heavy, unattractively thin, and/or otherwise failed to meet my audience's appearance standards for others.

My jaw dropped. I reiterated my main points. Then I went home and cried.

You wanna know what's really heavy? That so many people feel entitled to pass judgment on what women's bodies look like, even in contexts that explicitly negate the appropriateness of doing that. Boy howdy, I find that depressing.

Thanks, EG, for being stand-up and for maintaining a sense of humor.

Thanks, roymacIII, for consistently being a lucid and patient egalitarian.

Thanks, Jessica, for declining to coddle.

Sometimes you folks keep me sane.

I watched the Tyra Banks show today. Typically I hate her show, but nothing else is on. The show that aired concerned womens body issues. One woman who is skinny described how she has body issues, because people will call her scrawny, and her family encourages her to gain weight. She had the same body issues as the heavier women. If they were to make any legislation about non-discrimination based on the body then it would have to include both skinny people, and heavier people. We shouldnt assume that discrimination against heavier people is any worse than discrimination against skinny people. It would also have to include anything that has to do with discrimination based on looks such as being bald, or having a mole on your face.

sgzax,
Your argument that she changed the subject is wrong. The Frog Queen expressed the belief that if this was any other minority then these kinds of commercials would not be aired. She was astounded that this was even legal. The sentiment was backed by under_zenith and reginfem was just offering a different opinion. Two other posters brought the topic up before she posted. Check for yourselves.
There was also a video on the body fascists website that showcased a taped episode of a visit he had on a local tv show. There was a panel that was discussing whether or not the legislation should be introduced to include heavy people under hate crime. She may have watched this segment and have thought to respond after the other posters comments.

Meowser,
I agree. Any person (skinny, heavy, middle, ect) should not have to wear a badge that showcases their life habits to the world. Reginfem agreed with that when she said that she knows theyre unhealthy skinny people. She even gave a later post in which she clarified her statement further by explaining that she worrys for both her overweight, and her skinny friends. She stated that skinny people have unhealthy eating habits as well.She also said that not being able to change yourself isnt the only reason not to have discrimination laws. Its a common concern for many people today as more media attention is given to the negative effects unhealthy eating habits have on people. As a person who values her friendship with these people, she was merely expressing concern for their well-being. It would be hard to watch your friend die from a body condition, or watch a friend suffer because their eating addiction is taking over in spite of the will of the individual to overcome it. It makes it even harder when you already have a pre-existing condition, such as diabetes, or suffer from congestive heart failure. I fully understand that many people have metabolic disorders. Some people look overweight because theyre taking steroids that make them bulk up in order to fight illnesses such as leukemia. I'm refering to obese as in, they have an addiction to eating, and unlike those that are skinny,( but have unhealthy eating habits) these people have the genetics that make them gain weight. Too much weight starts to injure your body in a variety of ways. For example you can gain pressure on knees, and may create problems such as sleep apnea. You also claimed that I should be concerned as to why someone would be eating a whole box of Krispy Kremes. I did, as I stated that when you are obese, eating has mutated into an addiction, which turns into a unhealthy relationship with food and these people, like most of us, do not have the genetics that just burns it off, and they gain weight. Of course if you are happy with the way you look regardless of body shape (skinny, fat, whatever) then it is not an issue to yourself. However, most people arent happy with the way their bodies are because they understand eating has turned into an addiction, and oftentimes is used as an outlet for stress. That becomes self-abusive. It has to do with addiction, and bad genetics that most of us share.

sgzax,
you chased away a perfectly good feminist solely based on your hyper-conclusions, and even defended your overreaction. Thanks. The cause really thanks you for that. Perhaps a little 'chill down' time couldve been employed before you began debating with reginfem? Reginfem was only responding to your bad, ill-explained points as well. It wasnt ALL her fault.

Oh, yes, Gopher, sgzax chased away Raginfem all by herself. She yelled BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA! and Raginfem headed for the hills. Give me a break. There were many, many posters who vehemently disagreed, and did their very best to explain calmly, rationally, in a polite manner, why exactly her comments were rude and bigoted, despite the fact that, of course, Raginfem is absolutely entitled to feel that way and tell anyone she wants how she feels. Raginfem chose to be wounded rather than provoked into thought or to just settle things by demuring from an argument that she clearly was not budging in either direction, agreeing to disagree, etc. Plenty of people disagree with me, and like EG said, I don't pack up my toys and go home. If you can't handle having a majority of any class of people disagreeing with you, then you are poorly suited to being a feminist. The majority of people in the world think I'm wrong about all of my beliefs regarding human rights, but I don't throw a tantrum about it.

I'm sick of these stupid statements that some people eat too much b/c they hate their bodies and it's an addiction and it's soooo unhealthy and stop hiding behind genetics and I'm just really concerned about you and I'm not blaming you for being fat or judging you but seriously you could drop a few pounds blah blah blah.

Everyone's heard it before. You will change no one's mind about anything by shaming them. It's not your business what other people eat or how they take care of their bodies. You can't tell a single thing about someone you don't know by looking about their figure. I'm thin, I've got bright skin, great hair, rosy cheeks, and I eat junk and never excercise b/c I'm busier than fuck. Hip-Waist ratio's tell you nothing either. I have a low hip-waist ration b/c the Lord didn't bless me with the bodacious curves I would love to have. That says nothing about my diet, my lifestyle, or anthing else. It just tells you I don't have a high hip-waist ratio. God I'm so pissed off right now! How does someone else's fatness affect you??? How does my eating nothing but snack food all day have anything to do with your life??? Let's pretend fat people are super lazy and eat nothing but junk all day long. The problem with that is what? Do you have to pay someone else's giant grocery bill? Is that why you're mad? Are you having to pick up the slack of all these mythical lazy fat people? I mean what the fuck is the problem with being fat? Seriously? Why is it sooooo terribly offensive to you that some people are fat? Does it just gross you out? Are you busy moralizing? B/c sanctimonious assholes gross me out. Damn.

Gopher said:

"I'm refering to obese as in, they have an addiction to eating..."

"...as I stated that when you are obese, eating has mutated into an addiction, which turns into a unhealthy relationship with food and these people, like most of us, do not have the genetics that just burns it off, and they gain weight. Of course if you are happy with the way you look regardless of body shape (skinny, fat, whatever) then it is not an issue to yourself. However, most people arent happy with the way their bodies are because they understand eating has turned into an addiction, and oftentimes is used as an outlet for stress. That becomes self-abusive. It has to do with addiction, and bad genetics that most of us share."

Wow, that's a lot of "most's" and other sweeping generalizations about obesity = food addiction; I'd be very surprised if you had any actual data to support your assertion that the majority of people who are obese are addicted to food. You mentioned not usually watching Tyra Banks, but all that canned pop psychology you're spouting sure sounds like it came off SOME talk show. I'd be very curious to hear your definition of "obese," since earlier you equated it with having to ride a "motor scooter", as if anyone who is obese is no longer ambulatory.

Second, all of your *chasing away a good feminist* and *losing a perfectly good feminist* talk is sounding mighty like concern trolling to me (see definition kindly offered by other posters above). Hmm, the notion that feminist anger over a feminist issue should get toned down to avoid offending people or "hurting the cause" by making people uncomfortable, now where have I heard that one before? But seriously, there is nothing saying raginfem can't continue to be, and likely will continue to be, a feminist because of all this...are you under the impression that one's feminism starts to fade once we click to another web site or turn off the computer? Or that one difficult interaction or confrontation is all it takes to throw away an entire belief system / worldview? That's pretty shallow and to my mind it actually demeans raginfem more than challenging her does. Part of feminism, part of raising awareness of different -isms and forms and systems of oppression, necessitates getting called on our own prejudices and blindspots once in a while and having the guts to stick around and hear what people are saying.

Gopher said:
"sgzax,
you chased away a perfectly good feminist solely based on your hyper-conclusions, and even defended your overreaction."

I did what? You haven't read the thread, have you? Here are my first three responses on this thread, verbatim:

Comment 1:
“I'm going to do my best to not get upset over this discussion.

It is true that often overweight people could eat better or exercise more. I don't think that's the point of this story, and I think that bringing it up in a thread about this story reinforces for overweight people the idea that their weight is, in fact, a valid reason for verbal and physical attacks. And that they shouldn't whine too much because, after all, they could control themselves if they just tried a little harder.

There is a place for people to focus on healthy eating and exercise, but why does that have to be here, in the shadow of that asshole shouting 'moo!' at that poor, underpaid actress?
I would hope that this would be a place where we could all agree that nobody deserves to be humiliated or abused just because of the way they look. That's the only point that should be derived from this particular story, and having it be a springboard for fat-blaming is upsetting.�

Comment 2:
“Did everyone see the story the other day that suggested that it was healthiest to be overweight? Second healthiest body type was 'normal' and skinny and obese brought up the rear.

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-na-weight7nov07,1,6174404.story?coll=la-headlines-health

As a person who is not obese but will never be skinny, let me say 'Woo!' And where is the movement to remove normal weight children from the homes of their abusive parents?
I'm being facetious but really... can we let each other be a little.

I think that anyone who can't let any weight story go without mentioning their negative feelings or opinions about fat people might be having a problem with body image or self-esteem.�

Comment 3:

"Why was this an appropriate place to talk about how you feel about fat at all? Your failure to see this as a thread decrying the acceptance of verbal and physical abuse is the problem, not anyone else's valid points about how your attitude supports the point of view of the man in the clip at the top of the page."
---------------------

I'm not responsible for raginfem's over-reaction and I won't take on any guilt you want to dish out. If other people were responsible for "driving away a perfectly good feminist" then so what? Is this site the staging ground for the coming revolution? It's a blog. She has removed herself and is free to return. The drama is a bit over-done.

The "actor" who plays the "fattie" makes me want to do violent things. May I at least throw a pie in her face (he would need a huge budget to hire an f/x artist to do that kind of work)? How low is your self-esteem to star in this kind of commercial? Did she trade services for personal training?

There are limited options for overweight actors, and I suppose she was grateful to have work. As pointed out in another movie though, "There's work at the post office."

I have to chime in with agreement with under_zenith, EG, AlaraJ, and even Jessica’s comments about raginfem, whose tirade, to me (yep, another chubbie) comes off as being incensed that we object to her blaming “most� overweight people for being that way. And now we have Gopher championing raginfem’s cause. Super.

This is what I saw: Even though she repeatedly admitted that not *every* fat person is leading an unhealthy lifestyle, raginfem ALSO repeatedly continued to assert that she believes *most* of us do. It’s very frustrating to be endlessly told that we have absolute control over our metabolism when we absolutely do not!

For one thing, this is in no way helpful. As someone said; if blame and shame were effective, there wouldn’t BE any fatties. All gyms would operate the way that the disgusting ad this thread is about does if that sort of thing were even remotely effective.

The bottom line is that we are people with feelings and we get way more than enough disapproval everywhere else in our lives; doctors, co-workers, family, friends and even perfect strangers.

I also HEARTILY second the recommendation of Junk Food Science to tease fact from fiction about obesity. Sandy Szwarc is a saint for doing the tedious and time consuming work of delving into numerous studies to sift out the real facts.

BTW as to the “difference� between overweight and obese? No one really agrees where that line is; not doctors, not researchers. What we work with today was pretty much arbitrarily decided by the government based on studies done by researchers who were predominately funded by the weight loss industry. Check out a book called “Fat Politics� by J. Eric Oliver.

It's no surprise that the vitriol extended to overweight and obese people is not of the same quality or intensity as the judgment of people who smoke, drink a bit much, or engage in lots of risky sex. Granted, those groups take a good amount of heat from time to time, but it's really not the same, is it?

So when we're talking about attitudes towards fat, can we at least be honest in that we are largely talking about APPEARANCE and quit hiding behind the "it's unhealthy!" smoke screen? Isn't that sort of like a fundamentalist whack-job who defends their anti-contraceptive views on the fact that the pill is linked to a slightly increased risk of cancer? If you don't like the way fat people look, just say it and get it out there. Don't pretend it's because someone at greater risk for certain diseases and that just makes you so upset. Because you can find a lot of other types of people who fall into the same category yet aren't on the receiving end of so much outright hate.