I like that the "pro-life" response is basically to say, "Yeah, well they're just wrong." Very convincing.

Unfortunately, this report reiterates what we already knew: when abortion isn't legal, women skirt the law to find other ways to induce abortion. If we continue to endanger the right to safe and legal abortion, abortion rates will likely only rise. Dina Morad posted on Womenstake.org with more details on this.

When I read this article in the paper, I feared that the anti-choice perception of it would be "so it won't be any different if abortion's illegal, so why not make it illegal?". Because, frankly, since most anti-abortion legislation has to have its proverbial arm twisted to add a 'health of the woman' clause added, health concerns do not seem to be in their line of sight.

Isn't the experience in the US just the opposite? In the seven-year period from 1973 to 1979, the number of abortions more than doubled, whether we take the CDC numbers (from 615,831 to 1,251,921) or AGI's numbers (from 744,600 to 1,497,700). That certainly doesn't support the assertion that the abortion rate remains the same whether legal or not.

Isn't the experience in the US just the opposite? In the seven-year period from 1973 to 1979, the number of abortions more than doubled, whether we take the CDC numbers (from 615,831 to 1,251,921) or AGI's numbers (from 744,600 to 1,497,700). That certainly doesn't support the assertion that the abortion rate remains the same whether legal or not.

We ought to file that one under the things that should be labeled a no-shit-sherlock, but, for one reason or another, are not.

buffythewhite, there's more than one factor at hand. One could just as easily point out that the lowest rate of abortion yet recorded in the history of the US was during Bill Clinton's term, despite (and perhaps, ironically, because of) his pro-choiceness.

werechick - There very well may be other contributing factors. Please share them and assign a % of the 100% increase in total abortions that took place over a 6 year period to those other factors and what small percentage legalization played. Even if 50% of the increase came from verifiable other factors, that's still a 50% increase in total abortions in a 6 year period assignable to legalizing the procedure.

buffythewhite, I would imagine that before the procedure was legal, not a lot of women were admitting to it. The increase we see in the numbers may merely be due to better reporting.

That's one possibility, Emmy. Another possibility is that women were taking advantage of the new right. I'm sure there was an exponential increase in the number of votes cast by women after 1920. What's your point, buffy? Besides, abortion rates in the US have been going down each year for the past many years. It's not 1979 anymore.

Actually, I think you'll find the real moral is that, "Even though making abortion illegal doesn't save the lives of any little ones, it does result in proper punishment for some of those sluts who have them; just one more reason to ban abortion now."

Or, y'know, so the forced-pregnancy movement would probably say if they had half of my massive, throbbing...frontal lobe.

...okay, I'll stop digging a hole for myself now.

Currently at the university I am attending, the pro-life campus club is holding their annual "Genocide Awareness Project" (aka GAP; website www.unmaskingchoice.ca) which displays pictures of aborted embryos, fetuses and premature babies on display.

Today we were protesting this display, (woohoo!) and we also came about some interesting opinions some of the GAP people (*cough* who were mostly MEN, argh) and I thought it was.. interesting.

For example: one man said he thought it was okay for a woman to have an abortion as long as her life was in jeopardy or if she had an ectopic pregnancy. He said the logic behind this was that if one life could be saved at least it was better than losing two.

Now, an important thing to keep in mind is the difference in the death rate of reproductively active women in countries where abortion is illegal in comparison to where it is legal and widely available. According to a pamphlet I have (Abortion in Law, History and Religion, 1995, Childbirth by Choice Trust, Toronto, Canada) illegal abortions were the principal cause of death in women of reproductive age in Latin America. Now, this being said, we also know that in these countries there is no universal health care, contraceptive availability is low and they are mainly Catholic. But still: #1 killer of women our age? jeez!

According to this pamphlet, the Netherlands is an example where abortion rates have actually decreased although it is legal. This is more than likely due to their comprehensive sex ed and their family planning options for all citizens. I say: rad!!

If anything, this makes sense. Obviously if we educated children about what sex REALLY IS (and not just for PRO-CREATION) then I'd like to think this might end up in a lower occurrence of unwanted pregnancies.

--Sorry for rambling.

"illegal abortions were the principal cause of death in women of reproductive age in Latin America."

I heard that they're also a major cause of death in married women in Kenya. So much for abortion bans targeting premarital sex...

"According to this pamphlet, the Netherlands is an example where abortion rates have actually decreased although it is legal. This is more than likely due to their comprehensive sex ed and their family planning options for all citizens. I say: rad!!"

Now I wonder what it looks like if you compare Dutch communities with high schools that have comprehensive sex ed and Dutch communities with high schools that don't have any sex ed (lest condoms or abstinence offend the students' in-laws):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3398769.stm

"...Mieke van Kooten Niekerk of the Rutgers Foundation, which carries out research into sexual problems, says immigrants have different norms and standards from their Dutch counterparts.

"'Often they are very careless, especially the young ones, 13 and 14 years old. The men don't like using condoms. And there is not such a taboo surrounding teenage pregnancy.'

[my guess is that marital teen pregnancy is what's not taboo]

"Ms van Kooten says girls from Holland's ethnic minorities live in two cultures - the conservative one of their parents and the open one of Dutch society.

"'It is not easy to reach them with sex education. It is not even taught in schools where the population is overwhelmingly immigrant.'..."

Buffy, its important to remember that that increase represents an increase in legal abortions. In the 1970's several states did have legalized abortion laws--and many more did not. So in states like New York, where abortion laws had already been liberalized, the rate remained the same, but in Kentucky (where I live), though there was unreported illegal abortion services going on (sometimes organized and supported by sympathetic CLERGY) the rate went from zero legal abortions (but many illegal abortions unreported) to #X legally reported abortions. So, as a result, it looks like a tremendous increase when in reality many of those abortions were ALREADY GOING ON, just underground. Roe v Wade is primarily about the Constitutionally protected right to privacy verses State's rights. If Roe v Wade were to go, unless a Constitutional Amendment passed, abortion would still remain legal in places like New York and California (and heck, South Dakota by the looks of it). The fight would be taken to the street and although several states do have laws on the books that would make abortion illegal the moment Roe v Wade were overturned, many of those laws would be challenged and later met with laws that would try to reverse them (even in the South). It would be bad and stupid, but at least middle-class women could probably get abortions in neighboring states, the poor would be screwed...or rather, even more screwed, but the abortion rate? Probably pretty consistent...unless of course reproductive health care and contraception became as widely available/affordable to all women....

My Grandparents are so against abortion because they think it's wrong. I don't know if I could ever have an abortion, but I think that anyone who wants to should have the right. They don't understand that making abortion illegal won't STOP girls from having them... it will just force them to have them illegally, usually contracting some kind of disease or terrible injury.

They don't understand that making abortion illegal won't STOP girls from having them... it will just force them to have them illegally, usually contracting some kind of disease or terrible injury.

I think they do realize that. It's a feature, not a bug.

I have never liked the idea of abortion because to me any child could be the next doctor to cute cancer, etc. I believe every life should have the chance to survive whether it be the product from rape or whoever. Yet, that is only my view and if women are going to go out and seek abortion, legally or illegally as well as safe or unsafe then we might as well make it legal. Let's just have all the abortion done correctly if you're going to have it preformed anyway.

any child could be the next doctor to cute cancer, etc.

I wish this meme would die a swift death...

"Buffy, its important to remember that that increase represents an increase in legal abortions."

No, it doesn't. Both the CDC and the AGI numbers were for all abortions legal/and underground. Obviously they were estimated for the underground portion. And to answer the question - What's the big deal it isn't 1979 anymore? The title of this post states that abortion does not go up when it is made legal. The history of this country proves that not to be true statistically. The right is continually criticized and rightfully so for skewing number in their favor. Denying this increase in the US and clinging to the headline i the face of clearly contradictory information and or making up reasons why the numbers increase that way without any supporting evidence is not a dialogue, it's the answers of idealogues.

"I wish this meme would die a swift death..."

I know! Any child could be the next serial killer, too. It's a meaningless observation.

I do, however, appreciate Tara Grace's willingness to compromise on the subject of choice in favor of safety. If all anti-abortion folk could be that reasonable we'd all be in a better position, and we could all turn our attention toward making sure that all of the already existing little potential cancer curers and serial killers have what they need to have a good life. Pro-life!

I believe every life should have the chance to survive whether it be the product from rape or whoever.

Regardless of how traumatic it would be for a woman to have to carry and birth the progeny of her rapist or her own father, right?

While I hate the "cure cancer" thing too--I mean, what if your kid is the next Jack the Ripper, I don't think Tara is saying that she doesn't care how traumatic it would be for the woman involved. As I understand what she's saying, she's saying that while she could never choose to abort, even under such circumstances, she recognizes that other women will and she doesn't want them to die or suffer any more than they already have. It's a respectable view, in my opinion.

"And to answer the question - What's the big deal it isn't 1979 anymore? The title of this post states that abortion does not go up when it is made legal."

No, the title of the post is "Abortion rates the same whether procedure is legal or not." That means that if you look at all the countries in the world and see the number of abortions on-record, the numbers are statistically the same, even though abortion is illegal in many countries.

Any sperm & egg combination could develop into a fetus that could develop into a child who could develop into a Nobel Prize Winner.

Coulda shoulda woulda.

People's futures aren't determined before they've been born, so don't lose sleep over the thousands of wonderful, upstanding, cancer-curing citizens being hypothetically killed by abortion.

By this logic, every moment spent doing something other than procreative sex is a wasted moment because we could be conceiving the next Einstein!!

Every sperm is not sacred.

"People's futures aren't determined before they've been born, so don't lose sleep over the thousands of wonderful, upstanding, cancer-curing citizens being hypothetically killed by abortion."

Whenever someone says that the next [insert amazing profession here] might have been killed by abortion, I ask them why they don't make a difference in this world. Why don't they seek to cure cancer? Wouldn't that be much easier than seeking to stop abortion, a procedure that's going to happen anyway? Anti-choicers are simply passing the buck to an embryo, which can't do anything a person can't besides breathe in liquid and eat from its belly button. When I posted about this study in my blog a couple of days ago, someone commented (which is a rare occurrance) that his future wife could have been aborted! I said, Lucky her.

Well, exactly. We all could have been aborted. Or my mom and dad could have decided to try for a baby a month before or after they actually did. Or they could have broken up twenty years before they did. I wouldn't be here then, either. In fact--think of all the kids they didn't have as a result of having me! How will I ever get to sleep tonight?

Its unbelievable to see how many Latin Women are dying due to abortion. I just do not believe in abortion, it is taking a life away. And the weird thing about it is the fat that it is never mentioned in the news, no one gets to see what is happening around us. People are always ignoring abortion. But a question that I have is who is to blame? The women getting the abortions, or is it the doctors that do the abortions?

I know! Any child could be the next serial killer, too. It's a meaningless observation.

And, really, it strikes me as much more likely that any particular fetus turns out to be a criminal than a cancer curer.

Which is to say that granting a woman's choice to give birth or not give birth shouldn't be based on the odds that the baby is going to turn out to do X, Y, or Z.