This happened recently with a very progressive couple I know - they had a hippy wedding in the woods and really aren't conformist, yet everyone involved seemed to think it was so charming that he'd asked her dad for permission. I've tried explaining to friends how furious this would make me, but they think I'm overreacting... I think sometimes it's seen as an easy way to earn some brownie points with the future father in law rather than a desire for 1950s gender roles - but it still makes my blood boil. I talked about it with my dad and he thought it was pretty stupid - he said if anyone tried asking him he'd tell them that he wasn't who they needed to be asking.

Charlie - It is pretty stupid. As you said, though, it can be a great way to earn brownie points with your future in-laws. Assuming it is strictly ceremonial (i.e. if he says no, you will still ask her) I don’t see the problem. The whole wedding process is ceremonial BS, why not throw this one in as well if it will improve the family relationship?

That link there needs a Step Eight: Get a Receipt.

What if, god forbid, her hymen is already all used up? You're going through all this wedding stuff for a pristine vagina, not some bargain barrel bride. Young gentlemen, make sure to get a copy of the father's policy on returns.

Joy - LOL!
Most wedding traditions are hideously sexist and this is one of them. Could the symbolism be any more obvious? Why shouldn't women ask their future mothers-in-law for permission as well? I wish people would cut it out because this shit matters. It perpetuates the notion that men are active & women passive. And of course that marriage is about the transfer of property between two men.

I've always told my parents that if some guy ever showed up on their doorstep, asking for their position to propose to me, they should turn him the hell down because if he's do that, he's sure not the guy for me, ha ha!

I'm not sure the "brownie points" explanation really covers it, because brides certainly need/want brownie points with future mothers-in-law also. I know a number of mothers who feel pretty invested in the wellbeing of their sons (and daughters). But this is never phrased as getting permission from mom, or even from both of the parents - it's just dad handing over his property.

Well, it does serve as a bit of future warning for what you're getting yourself in for, inlaw-wise. But I think you need to distinguish between two very different acts.

The first is the gross one: asking because it actually means something. Or (even worse) asking BEFORE you actually propose.

The second is less troublesome: Asking because it forces dear old Dad (who, like most fathers, probably thinks that nobody is "good enough" for his daughter) to buy in to the whole affair. If he says yes (and don't they all?) then cognitively he's just started supporting things.

And if he says no, then sheeeit--you get married anyway, and he doesn't get to come.

Why does her Dear Old Dad need to buy into the whole affair any more than his Dear Old Dad? Or either one of their Dear Old Moms?

The answer reveals that even this explanation is troublesome & sexist (because she's his property and he gets to decide who owns her next!).
That the woman's father's blessing is considered the be-all end-all is SEXIST.

Yikes! This is a feminist disaster. I was watching 'Alias' on dvd a few weeks ago, and the ass- kicking character Sydney Bristow's boyfriend asked her dad for permission to propose. He was killed shortly thereafter, so I felt bad for him, but damn he was living in the dark ages!

If I ever choose to marry, you can bet my man won't be asking anyone but me for permission! That is if I don't propose to him 1st!

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I would say that it really depends on context. The most recent example I know was a very nice "traditional" wedding officiated in English, Hebrew and Spanish by a milti-lingual Reform rabbi, after several years of the "young ones" living together. Parents clearly had to spend non-negligible amount, ca 100 guests in a NYC restaurant with a beatiful view.

I imagine that broaching the topic with the parents would have the form of a very polite and perhaps somewhat formal request/announcement.

As long as it has nothing to do with actually permitting the marriage, it seems harmless to me. Having a big wedding verges on idiotic, if you ask me, but as idiocies go, this is a very nice one.

This is one of the reasons I find weddings so annoying. Well, this and the fact that I've been to too many Christian weddings, and have had to sit through the 'man is the head of the family' speech too many times.

My husband and I didn't do any of that. We removed all mention of god or gods from our ceremony. We walked down the aisle together, arm in arm. Nobody gave me away. There was no veil over my face. Our ceremony lasted about ten minutes and then we all ate a great dinner. Anything more would have annoyed me way too much.

It was a celebration, and one of the greatest days of my life. But what we were really doing was making a public announcement that our private arrangement had also become a legal arrangement. Maybe that's an unromantic way to think of it, but a lot of the old-fashioned markers of 'romance' seem to require my public submission. If I'm going to do that, it's going to be a private sex game and nothing more... certainly not the order of my entire life.

Maybe it's an outdated custom, but I think it's sweet. I don't think it's really asking for "permission," it's asking for acceptance. It's showing that the feelings of the parents matter to the guy (both parents - yes, I do think the father AND the mother should be asked). It's a way of bringing the girl's parents in on a major life decision. It's just good taste, I think. I hope this doesn't mean I have to hand in my feminist card.

That entire practice makes me want to vomit several times. Same with "giving the bride away". Any person going to my parents to ask permission would get a tongue lashing from my mother and then from me. It may be a tradition but it stems directly out of a time when women were nothing more than property to be transferred. My father stopped making decisions for me when I turned 8, and even when he did make decisions for me, who I was going to marry was definitely NOT one of them.
EUCH!

Oh, I agree -- this is sickening. The very idea of having some man dictate, even symbolically, whether his daughter and I can marry sounds like a film scene set in a medieval castle. Moreover, if I were the woman's father and some young guy asked me for such "permission," I'd think he's a total suck-up. "Why are you asking me?" I'd tell him. "Her mother's the boss."

I think I'm out of the mainstream on these issues. I recently heard a guy and a woman exchanging stories about how both he and her boyfriend proposed -- ON ONE KNEE. That, too, prompted me to voice my displeasure. I'm married, and I try to treat my wife with the utmost respect (and she does the same for me), but I never pretend that I, the almighty male, have the power to coronate her -- that is sickeningly patronizing (I suppose lots of women and men like it). My wife and I went into our marriage as equal partners, and not because I decreed that it be so -- it just is.

My husband told my dad we wanted to get married before he and I bought a ring, but there was no asking for permission. It was more of a hey, guys, guess what we're going to do!

But, I got a ton of criticism before/during/after my wedding because my dad didn't "give me away." The best part was that HE didn't want to do it. He said he and my mom raised me to make my own decisions, and he didn't want to take that away from me at the beginning of my marriage.

My dad rocks.

I'm having a hard time picturing my dad in that conversation.

My parents often tell me not to waste time and money getting married unless I really really want to.

You know, I can understand wanting your future in-laws to like you. If you're going to be in a committed, theoretically lifetime relationship, it makes sense that you'd want to get in good with your significant others' parents. That being said...there's a huge difference between showing your in-laws that you really do love their daughter, and asking if it's okay that you marry her. I'm an adult, thank you very much, and I don't need my parents and FH to be making marital arrangements behind my back. What if Dad says no? Or what if Daddy says yes, great, but daughter has no intention of marrying this guy? Will her parents try to bully her into it because they approve? Too many of these wedding traditions are treated as charmingly old-fashioned, but they're old-fashioned for a reason - because they're dreadful.

like a lot of wedding traditions, i know a lot of people who think this is "cute", and i'm sure they mean well, but it's time to just let go, for everyone's good.

i'm pretty sure if some dude asked my dad for his permission/approval to propose, said dude would be laughed at for a long time.

I don't have an issue with the happy couple asking both parents (on both sides!) for their blessing. Not their permission. Parental buy-in is a nice thing. Blessings are a nice thing (if your religious, or even if you just think of them as someone giving their good wishes). "Permission" -- especially from my father, but actually, from my mother, too -- squicks me out. You want permission to marry me? Ask ME.

Has anyone seen any less gross alternatives to "giving the bride away" (like blessing v. permission)? Not that I'm getting married any time soon, but I suspect my dad will be hurt and not understand why I would never let him "give me away".

The more historical context you have for tradition, the weirder weddings seem.

I never understood this "asking dad for permission" thing. If you're old enough to get married, you're old enough to do things on your own terms. Unless you live in one of those states where you can get married at 14 or 15 as long as you have your parent's permission. Anyway, there's really no point in asking dad. It's the girlfriend's permission that matters. Right?

It's about respect, not about oppression. It's about respect, not really about asking permission.

I grew up in a place where people respected their elders and their traditions. When I ask someone to marry me, if their parents are even remotely tradition, I will certainly ask for "permission." If they said "no", I doubt it would be an issue.

Really, if you have a problem with that, you should talk to my mamma. Because, she told me it was the right thing to do. But, I wouldn't mess with her. And, I listen to my mamma (most of the time).

Really, is this an issue--or are you making it one?

I think to some people this may seem like just a cute gesture that does no real harm, but enough of these "traditions" create a social attitude that does affect women, treating them like property and second-class citizens. The whole "well that's the way it's always been" type argument doesn't hold up well, in my opinion.

I'm of the same mind, MD. I realize the bullshit of it, but I want it anyway. I think a lot of that came from my Dad being so sick and dying recently.

When I "got serious" was my now-husband, my dad asked if he was going to ask them (my parents) for permission to marry me. I replied, absolutely not, he knows better, I wouldn't be dating him if he was someone who would think about it and if he did I would break up with him immediately.

Needless to say, my husband did not talk to my parents :-)

Caietanus--if this is about respecting one's elders, why doesn't the bride ask the groom's mother for permission?

I think it is issues like this that make some women think "feminist" is a bad word. Why does chivalry have to contradict feminism?

Why is chivalry predicated on the notion of women being subservient property?

But don't you see a difference between asking for "permission" and asking for a blessing from the people who, in theory, love this woman the most and raised her?

And nothing is stopping the bride from asking the mother's permission, either. She can go right ahead and do it if she likes. Isn't that what feminism is about?

Hey, I don't care if my soon-to-be bride were to do it--provided she asks me to marry her and not the opposite.

In my situation, I'd be doing the asking and my folks would already know and, hopefully, on board.

Muchacha1, I was just about to talk about that scene in Alias. I was actually going to comment on how awesome the Victor Garber character's response was. He was very curt, cut straight through the pretense, and said something like, "I'm not going to be part of some cute anecdote you tell your children one day." Granted, the scene was meant to show Garber's character as an utter asshole, but I thought it was kick ass. I love him.

caietanus asked if this is really an issue? I think this Web site's host is trying to raise awareness of things we may not even think about where women historically have been, and are, regarded as second class citizens. I know you and the other responders view this custom as a matter of respect and not a bad thing. I would not ridicule people who regard this as a nice custom. But I honestly don't understand why it is making a come-back since it does, symbolically, treat the father as the head of the daughter's household, "in charge of" the daughter. I'm all for respecting fathers and for having them involved in their children's lives -- but on an equal plane with mothers. I am perfectly OK with a tradition of asking symbolic permission of both parents (although I could never bring myself to do that, either).

Is this a comeback?

Because, honestly, I've never seen it go away. Also, my GF fully expects me to (she told me) as she thinks it is just the right thing to do--you know, as MD said it "asking for a blessing from the people who, in theory, love this woman the most and raised her." But, I guess she is just a sheep. Bahhhh.

MD has hit the nail on the head. Thank you for your rationality.

Great thread- I told my current boyfriend years ago, that if he ever did anything like that, I would dump him immediately. And then laugh at him.

I think it is a disgusting practice. What does my dad have to do with my decision? I'm 30, not 14. I make my own decisions, because I am an adult.

Asking for their blessing, once you are already engaged, seems ok to me- it seems more like saying "hey, we are going to be married, and we want you to support this relationship." But that is completely separate from asking her father for permission.

I don't think this has anything to do with respect-it's all about power, and infantilizing women-cause ya know-we can't actually make our own decisions about who to marry!!! Thankfully we have our daddies to do that for us. Bleh. This whole "respecting your elders" idea just makes no sense in this situation. How is it respecting your elders to engage in a sexist tradition?

I don't actually want to get married, because I think it's just all so stupid, really.

I know my dad would have loved it if my husband had asked his permission to marry me, but the latter knew better than that. My father was upset that we had a civil ceremony, too -- not only was there no mention of God (husband and I are both atheists), but "I don't get to give you away." I told him that I wasn't property to be traded between people, which didn't go over well, but Dad knew that he could either stop complaining about it or not come to the wedding. To his credit, he shut up (not an easy thing for my very patriarchal father) and was perfectly delightful at and after the ceremony. Although I suspect that his good attitude may have been due to a rationalization that I was someone else's property/problem now...

Things like this make me love my boyfriend more and more every day. I mean, I still have to convince him that we can't just get married at the courthouse in our street clothes, because my mom would have a heart attack, but I'm so glad that he doesn't ever behave out of misguided nostalgia.

But it's soooo cute! How could this problematic?

I think it can all be summed up in one little line from step 5:

Put yourself in his place. How would you feel about entrusting your little girl's heart to another man?

I'm getting married in under a year. Do you know how many sexist practices and traditions there are to break down? We've covered asking the parents for marriage, taking the husband's name, giving the daughter away at the ceremony, father/daughter and mother/son dances, who stands up with whom, guarder throwing, and addressing the new couples as Mr. so-and-so and his new wife, Mrs. so-and-so.

My fiance is with me on all of them, but you'd be surprised how many waves are caused by breaking from wedding traditions causes, even with even the most liberal of relatives.

The switch that some in this thread have made from 'asking permission' to 'getting a blessing' is a cute feint, but that's not what we're talking about here. Getting our parents (moms and dads) to buy in to our relationships is sweet and fine. This article is talking about ASKING PERMISSION OF THE FATHER OF THE BRIDE. That's problematic for all of the reasons pointed out above. If you stick with the topic you'll be able to see why people find it disturbing.

“And nothing is stopping the bride from asking the mother's permission, either. She can go right ahead and do it if she likes. “
Um, no, she can’t. What is stopping her is that the groom’s family would certainly find that inappropriate and be freaked out. And because it’s just so ridiculous, he is a big boy! Oh, and if I had asked his parents they would have certainly said no, after having freaked out.

“Why does chivalry have to contradict feminism?”
Because chivalry = sexist traditions based on the assumption that women are, week, vulnerable, with an intellectual capacity little more than that of children, and should be treated as such. It should be obvious why such traditions are in contradiction to feminism.

Hee, Destra. It never occurred to me that the bride/father and groom/mother dances were sexist. I just always thought they were...icky.

So I made my husband ask my Dad to marry me and I've always regretted it. My husband ONLY did it because we knew it was going to save us a shit ton of grief - my Dad is a very intimidating Christian fundamentalist. Ben thought it was horse shit but understood how beholden I was to my Dad. We were 20 and 21 when we got engaged and after years of verbal and emotional abuse from my father I wasn't in a place yet where I was healthy enough to not give in to his demands. I can understand why some couples do it, knowing the kind fucked up relationship I had with my dad and how afraid I was to not have his approval.

Sighhhh. I need to move to Sweden.

http://www.thelocal.se/8571/20070921/

Oh, wait - I am not into the whole marriage thing.

Being a parent on the other side of this I have to say I would actually tell my daughter not to marry someone who came to ask permission from me or her father (this would also be after I laughed uproariously at him). You should be asking her.

I don't support legal marriage in any way either so my daughter is fully aware that if she wishes to go against her parents' values and actually get legally married, she and he are paying for it themselves. However, if grandma is still around at that point, I'm sure she'd pay for it as it would be the wedding she never got from me.

It's worth pointing out that not only is the idea of a revival just astonishingly backwards, it dates back to a time when American young men had *even less* say in the matter than the women they wished to marry.

Stephanie Coontz digs the dirt in "Marriage, A History" but the practice of asking the father was all part and parcel of courtship being *entirely* managed by the daughter's parents. In the days before telephone and cars, and especially before women worked outside the home, Coontz says young men pretty much had to wait for permission not only to marry but to see, speak to, and sometimes even correspond with. Not that the girl had much say either, of course, in who she might have "come calling."

At any rate the point being that reviving the custom isn't just small-p patriarchy, it's *large-P* Patriarchy!

My guess would be that with the cost of "One Perfect Day" weddings passing four years at Stanford, the custom is being revived because getting family help to pay for it all is no longer optional.

Also, in light of the increasing cost of the wedding-planner-industrial complex the surprise isn't that parents are getting dragged into it. I think the surprise is that people are putting so much more effort into it because marriage itself is becoming a lot less significant.

>>>Has anyone seen any less gross alternatives to "giving the bride away" (like blessing v. permission)?

My cousin had both her parents walk her down the aisle. The groom was also walked down the aisle by his mother (his father was deceased.) I think they also changed the language, so it wasn't "giving away" but something about offering blessings.

Vin, thanks for sharing your experience. I think that is a very important point to make-many women are still beaten down and so much under their fathers/parents control that they couldn't even imagine going against them.

Coleen- great point-that line is disturbing! Wowzah! I'm not a little girl, and ewwwww if my heart belonged to my dad. EWWWW!

My parents would LOVE us to get married and have babies and be just like everyone else in my family. BUT, they have accepted that I'm just not going to do that, and they just want me to be happy anyways, so they don't care.

"Has anyone seen any less gross alternatives to "giving the bride away" (like blessing v. permission)?"

As I said above, my husband and I walked down the aisle arm in arm, and nobody gave anyone away.

Another alternative I have liked in weddings I've seen is a moment when both the bride and groom went to each other's parents (moms and dads) and thanked them. It was very sweet and meaningful. I would have done it in my wedding if I had thought of it.

Asking the father's permission to marry his daughter is a sexist tradition and I'm sorry to see that it's still popular.

However, I think one of the reasons people cling to it is that it is one of the few wedding traditions that acknowledges that people other than the bridal couple are affected by the marriage. Our society tends to believe that a wedding is "all about" the couple getting married, which ignores the very understandable anxiety, feelings of loss or discomfort with change that the couple's families and friends are feeling. The families repress these feelings, and channel them into arguing about invitation fonts and napkin colors.

I think it would be healthy for both the bride and the groom to talk to each other's parents and acknowledge that they are affected by this marriage. Of course, it would be intimidating and uncomfortable to suddently have this intimate conversation with people you don't know very well. It's easier with a socially prescribed "tradition" and a script already provided.
The "asking permission tradition" gives social sanction to two men to have a conversation about a personal and emotional topic, a necessary conversation that probably wouldn't happen otherwise.

I agree with sgzax, it is possible for a man to talk to the parents first without it being a "permission" situation. I have always kind of hoped that my boyfriend would talk to my parents first and get some pointers on the most romantic way to propose. It would be a matter of respect in my father's eyes if my boyfriend were to announce his intent (not necessarily permission), and that small gesture makes for a lifetime of good will.

I believe that when you get married, it's an act of turning individuals into a whole big family, so in a way, I see it as the man proposing marriage to the whole family as well as to the girl. I wouldn't mind if I got asked first, though. That's what living in 2007 means.

I agree with sgzax, it is possible for a man to talk to the parents first without it being a "permission" situation. I have always kind of hoped that my boyfriend would talk to my parents first and get some pointers on the most romantic way to propose. It would be a matter of respect in my father's eyes if my boyfriend were to announce his intent (not necessarily permission), and that small gesture makes for a lifetime of good will.

I believe that when you get married, it's an act of turning individuals into a whole big family, so in a way, I see it as the man proposing marriage to the whole family as well as to the girl. I wouldn't mind if I got asked first, though. That's what living in 2007 means.

>>>Has anyone seen any less gross alternatives to "giving the bride away" (like blessing v. permission)?

My husband and I each walked in with both our parents to the beginning of the seating area, then our parents went on ahead. We each waited at the back while our parents took their seats, then walked down the aisle ourselves. It was a nice way to acknowledge our parents, but still let us walk in on our own, which was very important to me. We also insisted that anything I did, he did also. If I walked down the aisle, he walked down the aisle. If I was escorted by my parents, he was escorted by his parents.

As for the permission asking, my now-husband was raised in the south. He thought my parents would be offended if he didn't ask. Fortunately this issue came up well before we got engaged so I could inform him that my parents would be very offended if he DID ask.

I find the whole permission-asking thing to be offensive, but it doesn't push my angry feminist buttons like the whole name-change tradition does. Anyone who addresses me by Mrs. Hisname better be prepared for an angry tirade.

I expect anyone I marry to ask my dad (and my mom, she'd shit if she wasn't there) for permission. I also expect that if for whatever reason my dad said no, that the guy would ask me anyway and then tell me about it later (he is MY boyfriend after all). Its not really about ownership, its a sign of respect to the family your about to join. It just saying "Im making an effort to be a part of this family".

I expect anyone I marry to ask my dad (and my mom, she'd shit if she wasn't there) for permission. I also expect that if for whatever reason my dad said no, that the guy would ask me anyway and then tell me about it later (he is MY boyfriend after all). Its not really about ownership, its a sign of respect to the family your about to join. Its just saying "Im making an effort to be a part of this family".

To test the waters, I asked my future husband with a straight face if he were going to ask for my father's permission to marry me, and he said "why? I already have yours." My parents whole-heartedly gave us their blessing when we announced our intent to marry soon after.

"Why shouldn't women ask their future mothers-in-law for permission as well?"

I did, sort of. At first, we'd planned a huge, sexist white-dress wedding that not only could we not afford, neither of us liked. (Combined with a very stressful senior year of college, it also led to a mental breakdown on my part, which has been interpreted by various family members as "fear of commitment.") We ended up eloping in a civil marriage to the consternation (and out and out hatred) of several of our family members on both sides, including his father (who married the woman who he left his prior marriage for immediately after announcing our intention to marry, grr). We have been married for five months now and are still facing bullshit accusations of "cutting ourselves off" and "eloping only to hurt the family." He is the oldest child of the two oldest children, and as such a great many people in his family think they "own" a piece of him and contributed to his individual successes. B.S., I say.

I asked for my MIL's blessing, because while I would have married him without her approval (and told her so), I still wanted it because she was (and is) the only family member of his that I truly cared about.

Thank goodness we now live 2k miles from everyone else!

to all the people who say it's a show of respect, but that they would still get married regardless, how is that respect? By all means ask BOTH parents if your proposal would have their blessing (and if not, ask why not - they may have valid reasons for preferring that you wait and nobody likes unnecessary family drama), but asking for permission indicates that you think it's theirs (or specifically HIS) to give, and it's not.

I have a question for people here:

I'm a male feminist, proud to self-identify as one. Now, I know many a good, progressive, feminist woman who would absolutely agree with many here that asking the father for his hand in marriage is a sexist, disgusting tradition.

I'm all with everyone here.

But what do you do if your fiance's (or your) family wants to draw a line in the sand on this? My family is progressive, but they tend to hold fast to many ridiculous marriage traditions. My parents eloped without a family wedding, and well, it pissed a lot of people off.

While I'm all for fighting this on principle, do I have to turn in my feminist card if I want to choose my battles?

This is tradition. I wasn't even planning on asking my girlfriend's father before I propose to her- the idea had never even crossed my mind.

However, my girlfriend mentioned it off-hand one day, and I realized that this was simply a tradition she expected to be followed. I have no problem following it, because I think that at heart it is a display of respect for your wife's family.

I'm not about to defend every aspect of the tradition, but I think in my situation- and most situations in the year 2000+- it is nothing more than a symbolic gesture of respect.

Why anybody would want to attack this tradition, I don't really understand.

Let alone implying that the groom-to-be is displaying some gross need to "own" his wife... that's just being disingenuous to score a political point that I don't think anybody else is even trying to do...

Look at the Purity Balls, those are actually fucked up, and deserve to be slammed back to the 17th century. Asking a father for his daughter's hand in marriage is called being respectful these days.

While there are clearly some people who think it IS about respect, I believe that most of the posters on this thread have stated quite explicitly that they find it to be disrespectful to the woman. So, that's why we are attacking it. Did you read the responses in this thread? Posters gave many, many valid reasons for attacking this sexist tradition. Namely, it's sexist. That's enough reason for me.

If my boyfriend EVER asked my dad's permission for anything about our relationship, I would be totally disgusted and angry. My father is not my boss. He doesn't make my decisions. He doesn't have to agree with or like my decisions. I am a grown adult with my own brain. If someone wants to be with me, they talk to ME about it, not my DAD. That just seems insane to me. Literally, insane.

There are ways to respect your in-laws that don't require you to participate in a sexist, demeaning tradition.

Jeff-what do you mean? Does your family want you to ask her dad for permission? Or is it that she wants you to ask her dad for permission? I think it is important to stand up for our beliefs. Why are their beliefs more important than yours? Not attacking, just curious to hear more about your situation.

Ok, about the whole "I'm making an effort to be part of this family." How do you get that from asking her dad to allow you to propose to her? How is that about being part of the family? Why wouldn't it be enough to actually say "I'm so excited to be part of this family" when you are announcing your engagement, or whatever. What's with all this symbolic crap-why don't people just TALK to each other?

I'm sorry, but it isn't respectful. By 'respecting' your wife's father in this way you are disrespecting your wife.

I'm sorry, but it isn't respectful. By 'respecting' your wife's father in this way you are disrespecting your wife.

jeff - you absolutely don't have to turn in your feminist card. a lot of people make similar choices and as you said, sometimes you have to choose your battles.

as for what i would do, i'm kind of trying to avoid all these decisions by just not getting married at all, but i'm sure that will still make some people uneasy. if i were so inclined, however, i would try to reach some degree of compromise that disposed of what i feel are the most backward, sexist wedding traditions, perhaps in exchange for keeping some that bother me less that would mean more to other people. thankfully my family is fairly lax about that stuff.

alexmlwallace - you don't understand why anyone would be adverse to a tradition that gives lip service at least, to the idea that a woman is the property of her father and then her husband when she marries? really? come on. i get that you don't personally feel that way, but the reasons why it's antiquated, unnecessary and makes many of us uncomfortable have been well articulated here. if you want to show respect to your fiancee's family, there are other, less patriarchal ways to do it (and that involve BOTH parents) and she could reciprocate with your family. it's not like asking the bride's father for permission is the only option.

Charlie-exactly! Choosing to respect the father over your wife is disrespectful! Doesn't seem too complicated to me.

“Why anybody would want to attack this tradition, I don't really understand.”
Read above comments and you’ll understand, or one would hope. If it is about respecting your fiancé’s family and not about transferring ownership, then tell me why it is that it’s always the *guy* asking the woman’s *father*. I don’t claim that every man who does that (or the woman who expects that of their husband to be), is necessarily thinking in those terms, but that’s where the roots of the tradition are: You are acknowledging the father’s ownership of the daughter’s hymen. Yes, “This is tradition”, but it’s sexist tradition, like giving the bride away or, diamond engagement rings, etc. Yes, purity balls are gross, but so is asking “a father for his daughter's hand in marriage”.

Jeff: "While I'm all for fighting this on principle, do I have to turn in my feminist card if I want to choose my battles?"

There's a card? I didn't get a card.

My strong opinion is not an indicator of any desire on my part to live your life for you. We all choose our battles. I wasn't having any of this; you might make a different decision.

I like being able to have the intense conversation picking apart what's really going on though, and I like being able to call bullshit when people deny the underlying meaning of these traditions.

While I'm all for fighting this on principle, do I have to turn in my feminist card if I want to choose my battles?

The goal of posts like this is consciousness raising; let's look at the sexist subtext of these things so many people for granted. That doesn't mean if you choose to do those things you are Cast Out of the Feminist Circle for All Eternity. It's not about maintaining ideological purity, it's about analyzing the attitudes underlying this sort of thing. We all compromise with the patriarchy just to survive, so if that's one of the compromises you feel like you have to make, so be it. Just acknowledge that it's a compromise. So many people feel attacked when things like this are analyzed through a feminist lens, but it's absolutely necessary to do it in order to show the omnipresent patriarchal attitudes. This isn't about judging the individual people living their lives, but challenging the meaning of traditions that demean women and treat us as possessions without autonomy.

I think a lot of the "asking permission" is less about the guy getting permission to marry the daughter than it is about the thousands of dollars that so many brides/couples/parents these days feel a bride's parents are obligated to spend on the wedding.