Ugh... if it's genetic, it skipped a generation...or three...Neither my mother nor my grandmother were happy housewives. My husband does what little cleaning needs to be done at home. His daughter, however, has taken after him and likes to fold her clothes and put them away and help Daddy with the dishes.

Personally, I do enjoy having a clean area to come home to. It makes me feel less cluttered and stressed.

But I also don't clean more than a couple of times a month. Enjoying the results of cleanliness does not mean that you enjoy the process that gets you there, and the writer of this article really seems to be confusing the two.

Okay, first of all, I am really disappointed with a lot of the crap the Post has seen fit to print this past week - from this to some really asinine LTEs over the weekend.

Secondly, I find this hard to buy, considering I didn't find wiping toddler drool off sliding glass doors so moving even when I was being paid to do it.

Just like how I have to shower everyday to enjoy my life, so too do I need to keep a clean house.

It's not fulfilling in and of itself, it just helps me live comfortably. It's like saying that brushing your teeth is the reason you get up in the morning, at least from my perspective.

Besides, why is it solely her job to make a comfortable house for people to live in? Don't other people live in the house too? I know I would never feel it is my "duty."

My husband and I like a clean house, we keep it tidy. It is chore attaining the tidiness, not a pleasure.. and our "kingdom" is a nest of tranquility against the chaotic universe. That said, it would be a waste of our education and skills to spend it in a round of constant cleaning in the little kingdom. having a clean house and enjoying cleaning it are distinct things, the former i a pleasure, the latter a pain in vital portions of the anatomy.

I remember reading in my critical theory classes these vast sweeping generalizations about what "human nature" craves, usually written by men based on themselves, and what "womankind" desires, usually based on one or two women of the (male) author's acquaintance like. This strikes me as being pretty much the same thing.

Gallons of ink has been spilled on the pleasures of a clean house, by writers of both genders. Most people like a clean house, but not many like the process of making it so. Wow, deep.

why on earth did i waste all that money on a law degree when i could have achieved a comparable level of intellectual excitement and personal fulfillment for the price of a bottle of 409 and a squeegie?

clearly they don't teach elementary logic in the stepford school of drudgery. who doesn't like a clean house? the results are rewarding; the process is not. i like freshly laundered towels and a shower without soap scum as much as anyone. however, if i had to occupy myself with this noble pursuit every day, i'd pull a sylvia plath in no time, just like every other person i know, male or female.

Why is it so hard for women like Rena Corey to realize that just because THEY enjoy housekeeping does NOT mean EVERY member of their gender therefore does??? I like weight-lifting...does that mean every woman has an inherent desire to lift weights? No, and I'd be an idiot if I assumed that...just like Rena Corey.

Ok, I may be overreacting a bit here, but this happens to be an issue that kinda strikes a nerve.

I know that this post is about cleaning house vs working and getting paid. I'll admit-- I hate cleaning house. Rarely do it. Am just waiting till our kid is born, so hubby and I can pony up on our agreement to hire a cleaning lady at that time.

That said, you also imply that a woman's worth is measured by her work outside the home-- that if she's not working, not "making something or herself" then she's letting herself down and fooling herself and wasting her talents and brains.

I object to this attitude. Just as I object every time I read that women who don't want high-powered careers "lack ambition."

Some women are fulfilled by their careers. others are fulfilled by, say, taking care of their family. I'[m not a mom yet-- I have 4 months to go-- but our plan is for me to stay at home with our baby, and I very much look forward to this. No, I can't really know yet how much I'll like it, the kid could well drive me nuts. But knowing how I have loved working with children in the past, my guess is this will be pretty great. Does that make me any less of a woman, of a feminist, b/c I don't want to work for money outside the home?

Maybe I'm wrong, but my understand is that women fought for our rights so that we could not be defined by strict roles, or be held down to certain standards. So that we could freely choose how to live our lives. Doesn't that include deciding to lead a life that doesn't include a power suit?

While I don't love cleaning, I don't hate it either. I definitely try and maintain a zen attitude about it. I like to be present to my work, whether it's in my studies or washing dishes. I like the feel of soapy warm water and warm towels out of the dryer. Thich Nhat Hanh has written some lovely things about work and presence.

Of course, I don't think that it is some sort of natural predestination for a woman to stay home and clean - but, I know a good number of women (and men) who leave jobs in the market to stay home with their children and love doing it. I am not wired to be a stay at home mom, but I surely would never look down on anyone who is.

Neither Amy nor I get any particular thrill out of housecleaning--in fact, we do it just enough to keep things from sprouting, which is why we buy whatever labor-saving devices or robots we can afford to clean for us. Roomba? Got it. That automatic shower cleaner? We've worn one out already. If there was a machine that would rinse off dishes and put them in the dishwasher automatically, we'd use it. There are more important and more fun things to do than sweat housework.

This situation comes down to choice (as I thought the entire feminist movement came down to). I think that it's absurd to claim women are genetically predispositioned to enjoy housework, yet it's not fair to label women who do housework as bad feminists. Some people are tidier than others which is fine. Just don't try to say women are naturally better at cleaning. And the less tidy folks shouldn't look down upon women who do keep a cleaner house.

Honestly, if it comes down to a matter of how clean people like things, then it should not even be a gender issue.

What people fail to understand is that cleaning is necessary. Cleaning the dishes, cleaning the house, cleaning yourself -- these aren't hobbies. They're things that everyone, regardless of gender, have to do. So why should women in particular have to find enjoyment such tasks?

Marcy, I think you're missing the point completely. I have trouble believing that any woman who "chooses" to be a stay-at-home parent has actually made a choice at all. I don't mean to say that they don't want or like to stay at home raising their family. Parenthood should be an enjoyable experience for the most part -- for both parents, not just mom. But doing so is more likely based on the status of women in a patriarchal society than anything else. Otherwise, mothers and fathers would choose this route equally.

I'm going to agree with FEMily, Marcy. What Rena is trying to do is to say that ALL women are predisposed to "enjoying" housework, and they shouldn't worry their pretty little heads about what's going on in the "big outside world". Why? Because that's was what was expected of women as far back as we know. Women kept the home and men made the political decisions. NOT because this was genetic but because men thought women as no better than children. So you have generations upon generations of women who are expected to give up their lives for the sake of others (i.e. family) to make them happy, regardless of what makes the woman happy. Rena might orgasm after she sees how clean her house is, but that's her. And much like with all of these articles that pop up I detect a "lady doth protest too much" strain, where Rena *probably* has to justify her decision to herself by saying that all women should be doing it and those who aren't are somehow lacking.

Marcy- I also think you're missing the point. I think the point is that not all women find staying at home and doing housework rewarding. NOT that choosing to stay at home to raise a child is wrong or unrewarding, or that you're choice won't be fulfilling. Women do not posess an inherent desire to do housework.

Marcy- I also think you're missing the point. I think the point is that not all women find staying at home and doing housework rewarding. NOT that choosing to stay at home to raise a child is wrong or unrewarding, or that your choice won't be fulfilling. Women do not posess an inherent desire to do housework.

Grammar cop: I meant "your" instead of "you're."

Also, why are mainting a nice house and participating in "big outside world" mutually exclusive?

I am so sick of publications chalking up disparities between genders to inante preferences while completely ignoring social conditioning.

Could it be that more women are "obsessed" with or "fulfilled" by housecleaning because they learn to be from their own mothers growing up? Women have always been "in charge" of maintaining the home, and have taught and continue to teach their daughters how to cook, clean, iron, etc. Boys have not typically been mothers' apprentices in housecleaning. So those little girls grow up with housecleaning as part of their repetoir while little boys do not. And the cycle continues. Uh, duh.

I live with three other people, two guys and a girl, and between the four of us all doing our equal share, our apartment stays pretty attractive. And by "pretty attractive", I mean people tell me my living room looks like it came out of a magazine. So, I understand the satisfaction I can have by keeping my home looking presentable, but that doesn't make me wanna do it all myself.

What I'm saying is, why is it never spoken that men might take pride in a nice living space? I mean, if it's so fufilling (and not subjugating at all) then why aren't boys writing about how much they like doing dishes? I guess it's just one of those things only a woman is allowed can enjoy.

Um, not that the cleanliness of houses aren't important, but could someone see their way to do an update on the Palmdale girl's story?

http://profbw.wordpress.com/2007/10/02/palmdale-knight-high-school-update/

Who knows if women like this can even tell that what they think is a genetic predisposition is really just social indoctrination.

So you can't keep your place clean AND hold down a job? Because I work 3 jobs, go to college, and my apartment still looks pretty fabulous most of the time, if I do say so myself.

My boyfriend does the same exact thing.

Well Gopher, it's not that individuals have to figure out whether they like it *because* they're women or because of social conditioning, it's that individuals' experiences and "hobbies" should not be generalized as "female" or "male" activities that men and women enjoy *because* of their sex.

Sorry if that made no sense but I don't know how else to word it.

ikken,
I think when they are trying to show a guy taking pride in his home it has to be set-up to bolster his privilege male image like in the practice of having "manspaces." My newspaper recently did an article on that stupid trend, and the book, "Manspace: A Primal Guide to Marking Your Territory."

Caring about cleanliness is not indicative of one's sex. A lot of men do care about having a clean house but have relied on women's unpaid labor in order to obtain it. :shrug:
I feel better after having cleaned but I don't think it's a woman thing. I know my boyfriend feels better after he's cleaned, as well. It's satisfying to see and experience the fruits of one's labor.
My boyfriend is very particular about how items are arranged in his cupboards; I'm not. He likes other stuff to be lined up a certain way as well. Not a guy thing, just an individual thing.

"Though I hate to come across as a biological determinist, despite decades of attempts to reeducate men, you simply cannot make one of them care about how the towels are folded."

That seems like a very poorly thought out hypothesis. I'm guessing that resistance to towel folding was not a recurring adaptive challenge faced by our ancestors, so I doubt any mechanisms evolved to deal with that particular problem.

"Rena might orgasm after she sees how clean her house is, but that's her."

Orgasming over cleaning, eh? That would be nice, I could use that extra motivation. Currently my only real motivation is if my gf is coming over.

I guess I was born with some crazy genetic defiency that doesn't allow me to enjoy housework as much as Rena.

I do agree that cleaning often results in some kind of "refreshing" feeling, but that's usually because I can finally walk across my room without stepping on cloths and paintbrushes, not because I find cleaning to be a fulfilling hobby.

SARAHMC: "Well Gopher, it's not that individuals have to figure out whether they like it *because* they're women or because of social conditioning, it's that individuals' experiences and "hobbies" should not be generalized as "female" or "male" activities that men and women enjoy *because* of their sex.

Sorry if that made no sense but I don't know how else to word it."""

That made perfect sense to me. It's the difference between saying that "Basketball is a male hobby" versus "Males are more likely that females to play basketball as a hobby". There is nothing inherently "male" about basketball.

I'm supposed to be good at (let alone enjoy) cleaning? Damn, I've found yet another way I fail as a woman.

That's funny, UCLA, because I think my only motivation is if I'm having a party or if a boy is coming over...

I'm a guy and I found all the babble about her little kingdom so cute it made me want to hurl.
And for all her talk about "my generation of women" wondering what went wrong, this is entirely her feelings about housework, as MikeT pointed out--no input from anyone else.
I wholeheartedly agree that there's merit in keeping a clean, comfortable home, but her assumption that it has to be all her because guys not only won't do it, but can't even comprehend the need, chafes me raw, both for the putdown to my gender and for the obvious free pass she's giving husbands: Don't bother to try and change him, wives, just give up and do it all yourself.
Plenty of women hate housework and do it for the team, there's no reason guys can't bite the bullet (I live alone and I do it!).

Actually, I care a lot about how the towels are folded, and how they hang as well. Also, if the toilet paper is on the holder instead of sitting on top of the tank, it's because I put it there.

My wife is passionate about cleanliness in certain areas of the house, but I long ago gave up on trying to get her to care about the damn toilet paper roll.

Just making the point that it's not about gender.

From the article:

"Though I hate to come across as a biological determinist, despite decades of attempts to reeducate men, you simply cannot make one of them care about how the towels are folded."

Funny, but after decades of being a woman, I've never cared how the towels are folded either. As long as they're clean and not left on the floor, I'm a happy camper.

Having a clean house is a wonderful thing. Getting it clean is part of being a grown up regardless of the chromosome distribution. That this is *still* an issue makes me want to bang my head against my desk. Except that would make a mess, and who would clean it up?

"This situation comes down to choice (as I thought the entire feminist movement came down to). I think that it's absurd to claim women are genetically predispositioned to enjoy housework, yet it's not fair to label women who do housework as bad feminists."

Of course! Meanwhile, even trying to be a housewife for a living doesn't make one a bad feminist.

Being a housespouse for a living, whether or not one chose that, is a risk (being one sex partner away from poverty and all that) but it still lets one want equal rights for all sexes.

"Why? Because that's was what was expected of women as far back as we know. Women kept the home and men made the political decisions."

In many places and times, wasn't it more like "peasant and slave men and women kept the farms and workshops and etc., noble women kept the servants keeping the ruling families' residences in the castle fortresses, and noble men made the decisions"?

"Also, why are mainting a nice house and participating in 'big outside world' mutually exclusive?"

Especially if one doesn't mess up her home a lot in the first place? ;)

"That this is *still* an issue makes me want to bang my head against my desk. Except that would make a mess, and who would clean it up?"

Someone else would clean it up, because you could bow out of the task as you take your bleeding scalp to the hospital.

Meanwhile, is anyone else reminded of Terry Hekker?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0108-04.htm

Don't bother to try and change him, wives, just give up and do it all yourself.

Dingdingding! We have a winnah! And people wonder why men don't contribute equally to housekeeping (and child-rearing)? When memes like this get tossed around, it just becomes yet another reason for men to say, "Well, see? You don't want me to help out, what with your special towel folding. I just can't keep up with all of your complicated rules! Oh, and if you need me, I'll be downstairs working on my elaborate fantasy sports rosters." Ugh.

I like a clean house, and I like to do my part to see that it is clean, but I'll be damned if I'm the one doing all of it. I like a clean home but I also like to do something fun and enjoyable in my free time.

It never hurt a man to pick up his fucking underwear off the floor. I never understood this whole "Women can cook and clean, but men are mentally incapable of such a task" mindset. Men have arms, therefore they can pick up a Swiffer just as easily as I can.

SarahMC,
I understand what your saying. I was eleborating on the self-identty confusion some women may experience from having so much social indocrination infused in their lives beginning in childhood. Clearly, shes old enough to know better than to adhere to oppressive gender roles and attribute it to female nature. However, I've heard many a woman say cliche, stereotyped things about themselves while they attribute it to their gender. Perhaps her childhood was so devoid of a proper girlhood (plenty of stimulus, mind engaging activities) that she is hugely self-dilusional to believe that somewhere in her is actually a 'gene' that makes women prefer to do housework than men. I wonder what keeps some women from being able to see that what they prefer to do is not actually them that likes to do it, but gender roles that have been indocrinated by society. I've seen many women identify with that. Thankfully, I've seen many more completetly barf at even the slightest hint of anything near what she is blah blahing about. None of this would be happening if society weren't so sexist, and chronically focused on enforcing gender roles.
BTW, I believe shes as stupid as they come. Why doesnt more of the media run stories by writers like Ellen Goodman!

Gopher:
Women buy into patriarchy and sexist double-standards just like men do. Sigh.

"Keeping a tidy house needn't be an exercise in pointless, mind-numbing tedium, regardless of what girls of my generation were taught."

The women of my generation have many different views on housework and its importance in our personal lives. We; raised by our mothers, grandmothers, aunts, cousins, and sisters; were shown that keeping house is sometimes a necessary evil. We were not told that it was going to be a terrible mind- numbing experience, or that we'd disappoint them by not keeping up.
When I feel like cleaning, I will. When I decide to share my life and my home with someone else, they'll be sharing the cleaning resposabilities, too. I'm not a maid to be doing housework all day, but I won't force my significant other to do it just because cleaning violates my feminist identity.

Did anyone else notice the "quaintness" of the article. I get visions iin my head of the stereotypical fiftys housewife, hair flipped out, duster in hand, sugary sweet voice telling me how great it is to clean. To me, she is writing from that stereotype. This article wouldn't be so obnoxious if it wasn't so...forced? SHe is playing to the audience that is in full support of women staying home/loving housework.

I think women tend t convince themselves that they're making a choice when they decide to stay home raise kids/clean house.

"Women's Liberation Through Housework"...

For a second I thought that somebody was stuck in their house from the built-up of clutter or something, and they had to dig to get them out.

Heh.

That said, does this remind anybody of those strange reality tv shows were this maid-like host (super) woman goes to the dirtiest house ever and teaches the occupants (ie read mainly the wife/mother) how to clean (all the while showing the grossest stuff possible so that the audience can at least feel better that they're not that gross)?

Sure, I get a great feeling of coming home with my room all nice and tidy - but I also get that feeling from my mom doing my laundry for me (oh, the joys of weekend visits!). Besides, to have time to clean means that all my homework is caught up and that I don't have to work... in which case, I'm probably going to go ahead and enjoy that sort of miraculous evening in a slightly more entertaining fashion than digging through the papers on my desk.

FEMily, I'll have to disagree with you wholeheartedly here, as I do see that Marcy has a valid point. The article may be implying that all women are predisposed to enjoy housework, but Marcy's comment wasn't relevant to that point. The fact that some women out there choose--and yes, I do mean make a conscious decision--to become stay at home moms does not mean that they have somehow been brainwashed by the Patriarchy into accepting their rightful place in the nest. I'm not saying that all women who stay at home and keep things neat enjoy it, but I think you're making a sweeping generalization by saying that all women, by proxy, don't.

I'm not a huge fan of cleaning myself, but I like it well enough. I enjoy organizing things, and I rather enjoy seeing the end result of my cleaning--it makes life just that more enjoyable to have a comfortable place to come home to. The idea that there are some women (or men) out there who take this small bit of fulfillment to another level doesn't surprise me. I think it's very ignorant to imply that by nature, all women do or don't want something. How is saying that all women DON'T enjoy something any different than lumping them into the pre-given roles that society has bestowed upon them already?

And please, none of this about how I'm 'missing the point.' I read the article, and I full well understand what Corey is implying. But stating that ALL women don't like staying at home is no different than stating that all women do. Is there no middle ground anymore? Why do issues like this half to be zero-sum?

FEMily-despite your protestations, I too am a well-educated, ambitious feminist who's choosing to stay at home with my (future) children.

Ambition doesn't necessarily mean working in the outside world for money and recognition. It could be working on an artform (fiberarts in my case) or studying fascinating subjects (medieval history, ancient languages, pagan theology). By staying at home I can guarantee I have time to do the things I truly care about and raise my (future) children in the manner I see best.

OT, sorry- fiberarts, ancient languages, and pagan theology? Sunflwrmoonbeam, you're my long-lost twin! :) :) Ancient history is more my thing, but hey.

It's all about teamwork and compromise.

RE: "life of unpaid housework"

It's 'unpaid' in the same way a Naval Admiral doesn't make a large monthly paycheck yet lives a pampered life of luxury with a private chef and servants wearing white gloves serving him gourmet food while everybody else defers to his every whim as he hosts his friends and guests on the Admiral's Yacht. Which of course is paid for with my tax dollars as part of the military budget.

Likewise, house wives have the luxury of Mr.Hubby who pays for all the groceries, pays all the bills, pays for the dozens of shoes in her closet, all the outfits from her shopping sprees, the jewelry and the purses, pays for the vacations, her yoga and pilates classes, buys her that huge SUV she pouted over, pays her cell-phone bill so she can be distracted and knock over a few bicyclists while driving her SUV, as he goes in debt for the fancy house and fancy furniture and silly knickknacks she demanded. All this in exchange for straightening the towels and vacuuming the floor occasionally? Sounds like a good deal to me and there certainly are a lot of women who WANT to live the pampered lifestyle of a house wife and are simply uninterested in working any job or having any career. Might not be you, but there are a lot women like that.

"Study after study has pointed out that, although men are helping more around the house than they did a generation ago, women are still the ones pulling the "second shift" after coming home from a full day at the office."

So her proposed solution is: enjoy it! If you can't change it, suck it up and tell yourself you LOVE it!

I find this so depressing...

Sgt. York, you seem to be defaulting to some bizarre 1950s stereotype of how that sort of marriage works--oh, the poor husband, forced to pay for overpriced consumer goods because of the insatiable appetites of women! Left to their own devices, men would never spend gobs and gobs of money on huge houses, SUVs, and other ridiculous status symbols.

I notice you've left out the part where Mr. Husband ditches Mrs. Wife and she gets zippo and has no social security to look for.

Honestly, have you ever met a SAHM? Because my mother's workload was considerably more than "arranging a few towels," and she was in a wildly vulnerable economic position both during and after the marriage.

I have trouble believing that any woman who "chooses" to be a stay-at-home parent has actually made a choice at all.

I call bullshit. If you object to this author making sweeping generalizations about how we women just loooovvvve to clean, because of our female DNA, then how can YOU decide that NO WOMAN can possibly "choose" (your scare quotes, not mine) to raise her own kids?

Why is it non-feminist, or necessarily patriarchal, to raise my own damn children? And yes, my husband raises them too.

This really, REALLY irks me. We picked me to do most of the hands-on parenting during the day, because I liked it better. And I'm the one with breasts, which I used to feed the babies. In public, even! (Yes, I pumped and used evil formula, too! So my breasts and I could leave the house!)

They're in school now. I'm back at work. All those shrill myths about "you'll be OUT of the WORKPLACE and your SKILLS will ATROPHY and nobody will ever HIRE you again and your EARNING potential will go DOWN!" are absolutely, 100%, not true for every woman.

Whether you'd rather I'd turned my kids over to a $6/hour caretaker or not.

How long will it take to overcome antiquated gender roles...sigh

How long will it take to overcome antiquated gender roles...sigh

What I've learned about cleaning:
-In a battle of wills, the fussiest person will loose. Don't be too fussy.
-If you clean up after people, they think you just like to do that. Sometimes, they are right.
-Everyone has a different philosophy on cleaning. That's okay, recognize what it is they DO -not what they DON'T DO.
-If you clean too much, it's as if you erased the evidence of your own existence. We want you to exist.
-Always leave something to clean in front of an audience. If no one sees you work/clean you will get no credit for it. Hiding your work gives you the illusion that you spend your time eating bonbons.
-Choose a time things should be clean. Let things be clean for that moment, then let that moment pass... it will happen again tomorrow. Remember, try and get that moment to occur when you can get some credit for it.
-Think about doing repair work with friends. It's a lot slower, but nice. Choose something you are not too fussy about. Fussy things... you're going to have to do all by yourself.

"I don't doubt that there are a few women in this world who feel spasms of ecstasy every time they pick up a Windex bottle."

You know what? I don't doubt that there are a few MEN who feel that way when they pick up the Windex. Is Rena denying them the pleasure of cleaning their bathtubs and folding their towels?

Wowzers. I'll leave the tete-a-tete about choosing to stay at home to those of you who have that luxury. For me, it was never a choice. Breed or succeed, that's the maxim of my ilk.

So why is it I can work an 80-hour week (no messing) and still feel inadequate and uneasy when the ol' "kingdom" is a freaking wreck come the week's end? No matter how I toil and strive, the condition of my home is always a marker of my adequacy as a human being. Not so for my male colleagues, lover, exes — not even a little bit. Could alleviation of this creeping, uneasy, "feminine inadequacy" be, in part, interpreted as "joy?"

Or am I high on stress hormones and Tilex again?

Wow, Sgt. York, what an honest portrayal of the lifestyle of the typical housewife. They're all rich! They all have insatiable appetites for clothes and jewelry (you know, the stuff we girls like!) and their husbands happily satisfy their every whim while demanding nothing in return!
You are painfully out of touch if you think being a housewife entails nothing more than folding a towl and dusting every now and then. Ever heard of childcare? Cooking? Having sex whenever your husband wants it (in exhange for the pretty jewelry)? Maintaining everyone's schedule? Taking care of appointments and other errands? God.

Sgt. York: "...Sounds like a good deal to me..."

Go for it. Get back to us on that.

"Though I hate to come across as a biological determinist, despite decades of attempts to reeducate men, you simply cannot make one of them care about how the towels are folded."

Uh. There is a reason my husband does the laundry. His mother (a divorced, under-appreciated, *extremely* economically vulnerable SAHM) taught him how to "properly" fold clothes, so much so that it drives him crazy when I do it "wrong." He also folds the bed in the morning. Whatever floats his boat--and keeps our house from molding--is fine with me!

Likewise, I will fuss over doing dishes much more than he will and am -very- fulfilled by cooking, so the kitchen is my business.

Despite this, we're both "slobs"--he doesn't do laundry until we're completely out of clothes and I don't do dishes except once a week, because we honestly have better ways to spend our time as individuals and together. Neither of us feel inadequate for living in a house some would consider absolutely filthy.

And damnit, "determinist" isn't even a word. >/

"I think women tend t convince themselves that they're making a choice when they decide to stay home raise kids/clean house."

I have seen a bunch of comments like this and they confuse me. I would love to stay at home. I would choose to stay at home. Instead I have to work because I cannot afford to stay at home. I don't care what job it is that I would be doing. There are many jobs I would rather be doing than the one I am doing now. But none I can think of that I would rather be doing instead of staying home. So I guess it could go the other way as well. Maybe a lot of people convinced themselves that working is a choice they made but didn't.
I hate cleaning, but I hate interacting in work environments with other people even more.

All this in exchange for straightening the towels and vacuuming the floor occasionally? -Sgt.York

You've obviously never done any real cleaning if you think thats all thats involved...especially when children (or husbands with your attitude) live in the same home.

Ugh...with books like "The Dangerous Book for Boys," and "The Daring Book for Girls," mixing with articles like this I wonder how it will negatively affect society?

Heres some passages from "The Great Big Glorious Book for Girls," to look forward to:

"The main difference between boys and girls is boys like doing things-driving cars, playing football, throwing stuff,eating, farting-and girls like feeling things-love, friendship, happiness, excitement. Boys are physical, girls are emotional."

"If you are friends with a boy, bear in mind that boys often worry alot about what other boys will think of them. Therefore, if a boy likes you he will have a really hard time showing it in front of other boys. If he is very immature he may completetly ignore you around his friends. This means that he is too much of a baby to bother with, although you may wish to give him another chance if he apologizes and promises never to do it again."

"Boys are often spoilt by their mothers so they have a tendency to think that girls should do all the boring things in life, like cleaning, cooking, and ironing their favorite T-shirt, while they get to do all the exciting things like jet-skiing, playing in rock bands, and being spies."

"Boys can be among the best friends you'll ever have. And they will carry your books for you too."
(ref. Timesonline.com)

Overall I'd have to agree. Some women like being homemakers, and I think sneering at them is just as antifeminist as saying that a woman's place is the kitchen.

But as far as that little tingle goes, I think there's some misconception insinuating that men, going off and bringing in the paycheck, are getting some sort of tingle of their own. The fact is, a job's a job, and I think aside from the occasional contented small business owner, usually the only people who get that tingle are old white businessmen, and only because they're taking home more than their share of $$$.

So I'm not sure where that tingle goes. I don't think it's just a woman's problem. It was always pride that made men such iron-fisted husbands, not the joy of hoging the workforce to themselves. I mean, we all want a career we love, but realistically that doesn't happen too often.

I don't think it's really genetic for women to like cleaning. I suppose it makes sense for women to have a sort of "nesting" factor, but I've always thought of it as a settling down and starting a family kind of thing. I think cleaning is just something that has to be done, and some are better at handling it then others.

"So why is it I can work an 80-hour week (no messing) and still feel inadequate and uneasy when the ol' 'kingdom' is a freaking wreck come the week's end?"

For some people, including me, it's a bit easier to be calm in a neater environment than in a more cluttered one. Maybe you have that feeling too?

"No matter how I toil and strive, the condition of my home is always a marker of my adequacy as a human being. Not so for my male colleagues, lover, exes — not even a little bit. Could alleviation of this creeping, uneasy, 'feminine inadequacy' be, in part, interpreted as 'joy?'"

I guess. OTOH, if something else like a mess is helping stress you out (see above), that doesn't mean *you* are inadequate!

This week my partner and I have been in discord over just this issue of housework... Our place is far from overly neat but in my free time I try and tidy up here and there--but he couldn't really care less. And it's this caring less, noticing less, that I feel is a socialized trait (which could just be a problem of my perception).

Then I start wondering if I should just accept it all, the gender roles that say that I should just carry on with cleaning while he's working on the computer because that's what makes money. But I seem unable to take this 'path of least resistance' and just end up resentful--even though he does his best to do certain things (like the dishes and laundry). It requires constant communication of my expectations, and usually he feels like he can't measure up. He loves his work, but I don't love housework--do I?? ;)

beckb, it might be a socialized trait. I mean, my mom was a SAHM with neat-freak tendencies bordering on obsession. She's the kind of person who dusts the baseboards of the whole house once a year. I, on the other hand, am a slob. I freely admit it. She tried for YEARS to break this habit of mine of "caring less, noticing less." Maybe I'm just resistant to social conditioning, but it wasn't for her lack of trying. Even now when she comes to visit me, if I haven't sufficiently cleaned the place up enough, she'll start cleaning it for me. I don't ask her to do this, or even want her to do this. Which is why I start cleaning like a madwoman before she comes over.

However, it was perfectly ok for my brother to not lift a finger and claim he didn't know how to do laundry (a load of crap, I'll have you know).

As to what you should do? I don't know. I don't know what your standards for "clean" are. It's impossible for me to live up to my mom's standards of clean. I just can't do it. Are you demanding perfection, or just that he rinse some dishes and do the laundry?

I love to clean. This is so funny. I clean houses for a living and I love it. My mother hates housework and never did it while I was growing up. She came from a home where her mother could hire a maid. The housework got done while she was away at school for the day. She never had to do it. I on the other hand grew up spending one night a week at my grandmothers house and she still had a cleaning lady. I loved to follow her around. I still clean sometimes with ajax and pine sol regardless of all the new high tech cleaning products just because I love the smell and to me it's not really clean until it smells like Eve did it. Now don't get me wrong. My own house is a pig sty. I can't afford to pay myself 20 dollars an hour. I keep up with my kitchen and my bathroom and I vacuum regularly but there are always a few laundry baskets overflowing with unfolded clothes and the beds frequently go all day without getting made and sometimes the dirty dishes last all week long. But I spend quality time with my kids. I can relate to the tingle of housework, but I don't sacrifice my time with my family to provide the same cleanliness other people pay me to provide.

the article says "the purpose is to provide a restful place where our families can recharge their batteries and enjoy time together"

This is an absolutely wonderful goal. I mean, real life is in our daily experiences, and a sweet home makes a sweet life. But where her attitude pisses the hell out of me is where it has something to do with women in general and with cleaning in particular. Some people keep a spotless home but have a dreadful home atmosphere; some people keep a messy home that overflows with love. I never really understand these attitudes because growing up, I never associated housework with motherhood because I was raised by a house-papa and a working mother in a sweet and clean home. But PUHleeze people like this author should open their eyes to the diversity of lifestyles and people in the world and not imply that female biology includes a gene that codes for affection towards laundry.

I hate housework! But I love a clean house. Luckily, I have a husband who is willing to do all the cleaning (and all the cooking, and all the laundry, and all the grocery shopping, too). My husband does a more-than-adequate job with all of the housework (plus holding down a 9-5 job during the week, and being the main breadwinner for me and our flock of kids). My part is just to keep myself attractive, and keep him stimulated and interested (which seems fair enough to me -- and which I enjoy anyway). I'm not sure our solution would work for everyone -- and not sure what Betty Friedan would think of our arrangement -- but it sure as heck works for us!