Look at the bright side; breast-feeding mothers will no longer have to be subjected to triple-glazed quasi-pork chunklets and a spicy caesar salad served by a pod-person with 49 pieces of flair, including the dreaded "We're Not in Kansas Anymore!" button.

Being someone who's a bit or a glutton, there's not many restaurants that I flat-out dislike. Applebee's was one of those few, and now I have even more reason to boycott.

You know, I'm trying really hard to see this as a feminist issue, and I honestly can't. I'm all for sticking it to the man and organizing against the patriarchy and all, but... I don't really want to see some lady whip out her boob while I'm trying to get my burger on, either.

I swear I'm not trying to be combatative here, but could someone explain to me why these women shouldn't have to cover up? Applebee's wouldn't permit a man to expose his chest in their restaurants, either. Maybe it's because I'm not really a kid person, but the fact that a baby is involved doesn't make me any more inclined to support public nudity for either sex.

I'm sure this must have come up on Feministing before (I'm a relatively new reader, although I've always been a feminist), so I'm sure there are arguments for the other side, but I really can't think of what they might be.

Man with chest out = man with chest out

woman with breast out = feeding a child

It's not a matter of public nudity, it's a matter of being able to feed your child while maintaining your dignity.

although I would never willingly breast feed in public, I cannot disagree that at some point it would inevitably come up where I would be stuck in public with a hungry baby... so I don't take issue with public breast feeding, although I'm far too shy to do it myself, unless neccessary of course, which I would assume is why women breast feed in public.

on a side note- breast feeding a 7-month old!? god... I'm so not breast feeding past five months..and thats only if I have too... ugh!

Princesspajamas,
look at it this way, there are lots of things you may find annoying or irritable, but does your discomfort really need to impinge on someone brestfeeding their kid? I mean, I sometimes feel a bit uncomfertable if a woman is brestfeeding near me, but I still see it as her right to do so. It's not the end of my life to be a bit uncomfertable. It's not indecent exposure, (know your not saying that) or pointless nudity, infact, it's the only definition of meaningful nudity I can think of.

PrincessPajamas, I have to agree with you here.

First of all, they didn't "stop" the woman from breastfeeding - they just gave her a blanket to cover herself!

What's so terrible about that?

Did that mom really want random men staring at her bare breast while she fed her kid?

Beyond that, is it really appropriate to bring a small child into a proper restaurant (even if it is a casual dining establishment)?

Ever seen a toddler in a restaurant - especially one who's parents do not properly supervise him/her?

Crying, yelling, throwing stuff, making a mess (which some $ 4.30 an hour server or busperson has to clean up afterwards).

In any case, I see that Applebees has drawn the wrath of the La Leche League fanatics - and I'm sure the hue and cry won't stop until they're forced to apologize (for something that they were RIGHT to do in the first place).

norbizness, what is your problem with restaurant workers?

And I quote "...subjected to triple-glazed quasi-pork chunklets and a spicy caesar salad served by a pod-person with 49 pieces of flair, including the dreaded "We're Not in Kansas Anymore!" button."

First of all, I happen to LIKE the food Applebees serves - if you aren't into meat, you probably shouldn't eat there.

Second, those "pod-people" are hard working restaurant servers, who only get paid $ 4.30 an hour (and that's in New York State - many areas have an even lower tipped worker minimum wage) and who have to obey the company dress code and have the mandatory bright, perky attitude reqired as a condition of employment.

Imagine if YOU were forced to be cheerful on your job all the time - no matter how the customers treated you - and got paid less than minimum in return!!!

Judge not, lest ye be judged, norbizness!!

Because hungry, screaming infants are much less annoying than somebody discreetly breastfeeding. Enjoy your Fiesta Lime Chickenâ„¢, Crispy Orange Chicken Bowl, and Apple Chimicheesecake* in hell!

* All items on the Applebee's menu. I feel sick now.

Greg: Can't a brotha make an Office Space joke?

Frog Queen, I didn't realize that the kid was 7 months old - that's kinda odd.

Then again, there are some moms (with both the financial means to take a years-long maternity leave and serious boundary issues) who breastfeed 4 and 5 year olds - so it's only slightly out there on the creepyness scale.

As for being "stuck in public with a hungry baby", that's why God, and Abbott Laboratories, gave us Similac!!!!

haha i was just gonna totally gonna defend your awesome office space quote!! hahaha

To everyone saying "why should I have to see that?" The fact of the matter is this. There was a law in her state to protect her. She should not have been asked to cover up because in doing so, Appplebee's was not only being anti-feminist, they were BREAKING THE LAW.

Breast may be a sexualized body part, but at the end of the day, breasts have one important biological function. They exist to nourish a baby.

Finally, the World Health Organization recommends breast feeding for one full year. Many experts agree that breast feeding a 7 month old baby is not "gross" nor inappropriate.

Gregory, given the first half of your post, the last line is really completely hilarious. So thanks for the laugh.

Secondly, infants have a right to eat. Parents have a right to be in public (and I say this as someone who really dislikes being around children as a general rule). If a woman is breastfeeding her infant and it is time for the kid's lunch, she has every right to feed the child without having to be treated like she's doing something wrong. Breasts are made for feeding babies. Get over it.

Besides which, most women are very careful when breastfeeding. They aren't waving nipples around, they aren't ripping open their shirts and exposing both breasts to the air conditioning, and they aren't going out of their way to draw attention to themselves. If you can't deal with an adult woman doing what breastfeeding women with infants do, then maybe you should look the other way.

Am I the only one who finds the recent surge in hostility towards small children to be a feminist issue?

Given that women are still the primary caregivers on most families, the viceral resentment that I keep seeing aimed at small children is in effect also aimed at mothers who want to take their children out with them. What do you propose we do? Bar women who can't afford childcare from leaving their houses?

This seems to me to very much be not only an issue of sexism, but also of class discrimination. Not everyone can afford a nanny to tend to their children, some people actually have to/want to, god forbid, leave the house WITH their childen on occasion.

hey goddess, i never implied it was grose to breast feed at 7 months, it's a horrible damn strain on your body... my friend only breast feed her first child for 3 months cause she couldn't handle what it was doing to her nipples. ouch!

Lucretia: I support a person's right to take their children out in public (male or female). I would prefer, of course, that the child be well-behaved, but whatever, I can leave if I don't like the way they're acting.

However, I don't have to like them. I'm not a kid person. It doesn't make me a bad feminist, or against women who can't afford child care. I just don't like kids much. There are a few individual children that I like, but as a group the chances are pretty good I won't. I don't actively hate them, I just don't really want to have to have anything to do with them personally.

The two things really don't have anything to do with one another. You don't have to like children or want to have them around in order to support a woman's right to be where she needs to be with her kids. It's kind of one of those "I will defend your right to say it" kind of things.

Sorry about that, frog queen, I misinterpreted your "ugh." Glad we're on the same page.

My mother had to stop breastfeeding me when I was a child after one month because she developed a really painful case of mastitis.

“i never implied it was grose to breast feed at 7 months, it's a horrible damn strain on your body�
It depends on the baby and the woman. I know at least one woman (my aunt) who breastfed her two children for ever a year. As far as I can remember it was an enjoyable activity for both the mother and the child.

"Beyond that, is it really appropriate to bring a small child into a proper restaurant (even if it is a casual dining establishment)?"

Uh, I think it is, if y'all are hungry and can't find a babysitter. I also don't think "liking meat" has to be a requirement to eat at an Applebee's--I eat meat pretty much every day and I can't eat their food since it seems way too salty for me. Plus, they fucked up a chicken-fried steak. Seriously--it's fatty meat coated with God knows what, which is then deep-fried. How do you mess that up?

And on the whole "boobies in public!!!" thing--I guess I just can't qualify a breastfeeding woman as a participant as "public nudity".

1) The AAPA recommends breastfeeding for at least 18 months. The WHO recommends at least two years. Notice that these are MINIMUM ages, not MAXIMUM ages. A seven-month-old breastfeeding is not odd or unusual.

2) I never could breastfeed with a blanket. When I first started, I was awkward enough that I needed to look down and see what I was doing. After about a month, the baby just wouldn't tolerate a stuffy blanket covering her face - she'd pull it off.

Really, even without a blanket, there's not much to see. The shirt covers the upper breast, the baby covers the lower breast, and the head completely covers the nipple. The most anyone ever got to see of me was a little bit of belly fat on the side. In spite of this, I've gotten rude comments and stares - not because I was "exposing" myself, but because people were offended by the very idea of me breastfeeding in public.

I've frequently breastfed in restaurants. A breastfed infant is a QUIET, well-behaved infant - which is preferable to a baby screaming its head off in hunger.

I realize that children are not for everyone, and I respect that, but I don't understand some of the anti-child comments on this site. Why should I NOT bring my child to a restaurant, provided that the child is well-behaved? It is a public place.

For the 'Applebees was right' crowd:

Some babies - many babies - will NOT feed under a blanket. They squirm, cry, and throw it off. I don't blame them. They still need to eat.

Secondly, would YOU want to eat your food under a grotty Applebee's blanket? Yuck.

And thirdly, breastfeeding is recommended up to the age of eighteen months. I personally wouldn't do it after ten months/one year, and I admit to being quite uncomfortable at thought of breastfeeding kids who are old enough to ASK for it. But that's MY PROBLEM, and I don't expect anyone to alter their legal and natural behaviour because of my stupid hang-ups.

You do not have the right to walk about without being offended, or made uncomfortable. There are plenty of people out there who would get uncomfortable at the thought of eating next to a black family, or a family with gay parents, but we rightly tell them to go fuck themselves.

Lucretia, you are dead right about the feminist aspects of this issue.

I'm a bit of two minds about this, first that women should be able to breastfeed enfants wherever woman and their babies are. On the other hand, having nudity (even for a practical reason such as this) I always find a bit distracting. I think for me it depends on "level of exposure"... as in are you just seeing the "feeding breast"?... And now I start to sound crazy. Either way, eff Applebees! I don't think we have them here in Canada anyways.

Lucretia, I absolutely agree. I admit that I have wanted to bang my head when someone brings a fussy toddler in whos allowed to run amuck around a nice restaurant in the evening. Luckily it doesn't happen all that often. But yes I have noticed other peoples hostility towards children in restaurants, malls, etc.
Maybe there was always this sort of hostility I dunno, but it does worry me about the time when I go to have children.

"Am I the only one who finds the recent surge in hostility towards small children to be a feminist issue?"

No, but the insistence that it is is setting us back at least a couple of decades.

Feeding an infant is not a woman-specific act. Men can do it to, whether they do so with a bottle of formula or breast milk. And that being the case--the fact that a baby can be fed without being put to a breast--means that this is not a woman-only issue. Insisting otherwise emphasizes the idea that women's bodily functions matter more than what's between their ears. And that's bad whether the function in question is being a passive sex object, giving birth or breastfeeding.

I agree that breastfeeding is best, and I plan to do so myself when I finally breed, if I can. But the boob nazis are seriously out of control. The idea that a woman might have a say in whether or how she uses her boobs is beyond them.

What's even more frightening is that the La Leche League, among other boob nazi groups, has strong ties to anti-feminist groups. The mighty crusades about breastfeeding, natural childbirth and attachment parenting are the only arenas in which otherwise-liberal sorts have managed to jump feet first in bed with religious conservatives, and it's seriously creeptastic.

Breastfeeding, like any other activity involving the body, should be an individual choice. It should be forced neither on mothers nor on unsuspecting passers-by.

There is no necessity to bf without coverage. None. The only women who argue otherwise are usually the kind who have drunk the kool-aid that tells them that being a mother--especially a bf mother--is tantamount to sainthood, and so they want to show off how remarkable they are for having squeezed a child out.

I am 100% behind setting up lactation rooms in every public place--especially workplaces--in which a parent (of whatever gender) can quietly feed his or her child or pump or whatever. But I simply don't support the idea that people have the right to tote infants everywhere and whip out a boob whenever the fancy strikes.

It seems like these mothers want all the attention and privilege that comes with being a parent, but none of the responsibility--especially the responsibility of keeping your child from annoying the crap out of everyone else around you. Parenting means you have to limit your lifestyle. And that means scheduling outings only to baby-friendly places or scheduling them around feeding times. If you can't do this simple lifestyle adjustment, you have no business being a parent in the first place.

Okay, I was looking at the picture with the article, and I'm wondering. What do you think are the chances that her looks had something to do with it. I mean, she's not the body type that men usually drool over seeing naked, you know? I wonder if it had anything to do with the "I don't want to see that naked!" response?

If so, this whole thing is even worse.

I've known my share of women who've breastfed, and they managed to do it in a way that didn't cause a fuss. The way that woman in particular was carrying her little cards sounded like she was trying to pick a fight on the subject.

Thankfully, "nurse-ins/outs" do enough to give "lactivists" the reputation so many of them deserve. Kids have every right to eat wherever food is permitted, as do adults. But adults who slurp messily with their mouths open and such in public get talked to as well.

I do still find it interesting that a breast without a child attached is obscene or exploitative, but add a kid and you have a beautiful miracle of nature, though.

The manager was clearly wrong here, all else aside, he violated a state law he should have been aware of considering his position.

That being said, I don't understand the outrage at people being uncomfortable with breast feeding. It's something that, ideally, no one would bat an eye but it goes against our culture. Breasts are sexualized constantly, they're declared indecent, offensive and criminal. Something similar can be said of any other instance of an exchange of bodily fluids.

An exposed breast in a restaurant would be considered indecent and offensive. A baby feeding from it changes the context, but not the body part nor the cultural associations. Of course some people are going uncomfortable with that. Culturally we are trained Breast= sex = bad and indecent, subsequently Bad and indecent + children = OMG BAD!!!

It's a stupid, screwed up approach to breasts and nudity, but it's still how our laws, culture and media approach it.

The politics of breastfeeding are a nightmare because it's a natural, healthy, vital act that has all this screwed up baggage. Breasts should be a body with many function, not a sign post for sex. However, I don't understand all the anger and outrage leveled at people who are uncomfortable with breastfeeding. It's a reasonable response given our culture.

I don't have kids, so I have no hands on experience, but why is it so offensive to suggest someone discrete for the comfort of others? Not demand, threaten or give ultimatums, just ask?
I've seen shy acquaintances discretely breastfeed in crowded rooms, neither mother nor baby seemed the worse for wear, and most others were completely unaware of it.

I'm all for addressing and repairing how we addresses nudity, but why all the vitriol at people for a primarily uncontrollable response? The pro-breastfeeding stance seems to be that anyone must be completely nonplussed or fuck off and die. I don't get it.

Also, to The Trash Queen: so well said. I'd love to see lactation rooms with comfy seating and soft lighting everywhere.

And good to know I'm not the only one creeped out by the embrace of neo-con barefoot-in-the-kitchen influenced groups as a feminist ideal.

Being offended or uncomfortable is one thing, Roni. Expecting others to adjust to make you less so is another. When what those people are doing is perfectly all right (both by law and by the nautral relationship of a breast to an infant), it's not all right to expect other people to change so you can be less uncomfortable. That's the time when you have to suck it up, realize the world isn't about you, and get over yourself.

And, as has been pointed out here repeatedly, covering up the feeding infant is not always a possibility, so everyone should stop acting as if it's no big deal. If the kid won't have it, the kid won't have it.

"The way that woman in particular was carrying her little cards sounded like she was trying to pick a fight on the subject."

Bingo.

This isn't about the right to quietly feed your kid. It's about the "right" (and there is no such thing) to wave your leaky tit around as a badge of honor.

The only women who pull this stuff are women who have so little else to say for themselves that they feel compelled to squawk about how fertile they are. Yes, you gave birth. Yes, you can feed the kid. Yay for you. And yay for the other five billion women who can do the exact same thing. You are not unique. You are not special. And neither is your squalling poop machine.

Don't get me wrong--I love kids. I even love babies. What I hate is irresponsible, self-centered parents who use their kids as an excuse to be rude and inconsiderate.

trashqueen,

I see your point but the act of breast feeding is a women specific issue. A man feeding a child with a bottle will never be accused of indecent exposure.

I agree that biological determinism is a tricky area, but as long as the practical reality is that most women are care givers I think we need to work within that when we address issues as feminist. It's all fine and dandy to say that men should be impacted as much by the issue as anyone else, but in reality that's still not the case. And working in hypothetical ideals isn't going to do anything to actually help the women who face these issues right now, in reality.

I also agree that children should be taken to child friendly areas, but I think I might disagree with you on the definition of a child friendly area.

Interesting related story: You might be interested to know that Facebook just decided that photos of breastfeeding are obscene. They're deleting them and banning some users for posting them. The Lactivists are doing something about that too...

http://www.shamelessmag.com/blog/2007/09/facebook-defines-breastfeeding-as-obscene/

Jesus Christ, you people can be harsh. I don't like kids. Not even babies. But at least I don't have all this latent hostility for women who are trying to feed the kid. It's a breast. You have them, I have them, all women have them. We have nothing to be offended about. If you're offended by the sight of a tiny slice of breast that is currently being used by an infant, maybe you should spend more time thinking about your own attitudes than griping about someone "wav[ing] their leaky tit around." And who the hell has ever seen anyone do anything even vaguely resembling that?

I'm willing to be the woman was carrying the cards around because either she or someone she knows has had to deal with this kind of crap before and she wanted to be prepared. I'd probably do the same thing.

wow, just wow. Can't believe Trash Queen. The simple matter is that she had to feed her kid... I don't see this as a "barefoot in the kitchen" thing. Also your comment:

"The only women who argue otherwise are usually the kind who have drunk the kool-aid that tells them that being a mother--especially a bf mother--is tantamount to sainthood, and so they want to show off how remarkable they are for having squeezed a child out. "

this just sounds bitter to me. Get off your high horse. The women needs to feed her kid and standing up for right to do so, isn't "card-playing".

If you don't breastfeed, you get lambasted (by the government, no less) as not giving your baby what's best, as not making enough of a sacrifice, as failing as a woman in some way.

If you do breastfeed and you want to leave the house, your options are to feed your child when it's hungry and be accused of being some titty flashing exhibitionist attention whore, or you can hide in the bathroom and breastfeed standing up against the wall, or (even better!) crouch in a toilet stall to feed your child.

Nice choices, there.

Given that breastfeeding is worlds cheaper than buying formula, doesn't anybody see the class issues involved in shaming women who breastfeed their children in public?

Anyone?

Wow. I would not refer to breastfeeding, or sticking up for ya right to do it, as being "rude and inconsiderate".

Boobs do not freak me out, though I don't think they're approp at the dinner table just for the hell of it. (Well, I guess it depends what's going on at the time.) Breastfeeding does give me the creeps, and I once held a much stronger opinion on bfeeding in pub but reading all this brash negativity is totally softening me up. I see a lot of anger.

The fact is that our breasts are meant for feeding our kids. Man it grosses me out but to say "f*ck off you can't do that in here" because some people can't handle a boob - and could this be because sexuality is kept in such a corrupt and disgusting light in the US? Could it be our culture, what a mystery - I really feel is violating, well, a human right. As if women in this damn country didn't need to be told to adjust another something or other that comes naturally. It's not as if breasts are popping out all over the place and for the sake of sex, even. I haven't seen a woman breastfeeding her child in public for like YEARS and I live in a big city. These ladies are feeding their children and they've got a schedule to keep, don't they? Sheesh!

akeeyu, I see what you mean. I'd be interested in seeing a study for sure on the difference in breast feeding between wealthy women and women of little means.

I personally don't want to see or hear about breastfeeding, but as long as someone can be reasonably discreet there's no issue! I'm not saying women with feeding kids need to cover up and hide themselves. I've been in public restaurants with my boyfriend's daughter who breastfeeds her kid across the table from me, and there's nothing rude or bothersome about it. There's no coverup, there's no flying "leaky tit" (which is SUCH an offensive phrase, my god have some compassion already trash queen), there's just a woman discreetly feeding her child, who is very well-behaved anyway. Probably because she got to eat, too.
And what the hell is wrong with being discreet? I'll be polite if others will be too.
The only people who should STFU are the boob nazi's who can't handle simple reality, and also the breast-swinging breastfeeding nazi's who insist that everyone not only need to agree with them, but ENTHUSIASTICALLY proclaim the miracle of life. Gag me.

"I agree that biological determinism is a tricky area, but as long as the practical reality is that most women are care givers I think we need to work within that when we address issues as feminist."

Horse hockey.

The reality is that women do the most domestic labor, too. Does that mean that we should blithely ignore the fact that the vast majority of advertising for cleaning products is aimed at women?

Parenting is not a women's issue. Period. The more you try to insist otherwise, the more it reinforces the problem. If we want equality for fathers and for same-sex parents and for people who choose not to breastfeed, then we have to stop acting as if mothers are the only caregivers who matter.

Also, I simply must address this, which I missed earlier, because it is emblematic of the underlying problem:

"Uh, I think it is, if y'all are hungry and can't find a babysitter."

Is there some reason that you absolutely MUST go out to a restaurant to eat? Are you physically incapable of picking up the phone and ordering pizza? Do you not have anything in the fridge with which to feed yourself? Do you not have a partner or co-caregiver who can bring back takeout?

Just because it's legal to bring an infant to a restaurant doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Restaurants that specifically cater to children DO exist, and if you feel mightily compelled to leave the house for a meal, then there's nothing preventing you from going there.

And oh, poor you for not being able to get a babysitter. Shouldn't you have thought about child care BEFORE you got pregnant? Or were you just so thrilled about all the attention you were going to get for having a baby that the practical issues of that just never entered your head?

There IS a feminist issue here, folks: It's the issue of whether we're going to allow ourselves to be defined by our biological functions. The LLL is on this huge crusade to convince women that their highest purpose is to bear and raise children. We've been fighting this pressure for centuries. Why are we suddenly not only giving in to it, but arguing that it's a feminist act?

Essentialism is bunk regardless of whether it's telling us that we're only good as sex toys for men or mobile dairies for children. Parenting is important, sure. But if you've succumbed to the idea that being a mother is the most important thing about you--and if you are marching around, whining about your "rights" to take your infants to places they don't belong, then you have--then you are not a feminist.

We are not our vaginas. We are not our wombs. We are not our boobs. And we are not our children. Until we divest ourselves of anything that says otherwise--including the insistence that not being a bf, attachment-parenting stay-at-home mom makes you a bad person--we are setting feminism back.

Over/under on thread, considering current trends: 350 comments.

As many posters have pointed out, many babies do not like to have their heads/bodies covered unnecessarily by a blanket.

Last year there was a big controversy over a parenting magazine that put on its cover a nursing infant/mother's breast. The baby literally covered 80% of the boob, but still so many people were irate about this--why, because it gave a "hint" of the breast and of course its the imagination of the looker that really matters, not the "object" of interest really. Whether or not breasts are sexualized, they are functional. Unless were going to be locked in our houses by the American Taliban, women are fully human and have the right to take their children into society.

The other day in church a woman in the pew behind me was breast feeding. No one stared or criticized or in any other way tried to control her or stop her from feeding her child. It was NATURAL. I go to a progressive church, Unitarian Universalist, with a female minister who was herself a member of the La Lecha League and has spoken about it as part of her feminist awakening. The woman in church had her baby in a sling, and perhaps some of that fabric "covered them up" but she didn't use an additional blanket and quite frankly she shouldn't have to. Its all about community. The officious and narrow minded control freak prudes are the problem. Its usually the restaurant owners or the "administration" who has issues with breast-feeding. How many patrons are really that rude? Even if they do, it is their problem--they are dealing with personal issues of aversion to the natural processes of the body. I say, take off the blankets and breastfeed away. Have a copy of your state's breast feeding laws on hand and let's change things. Discretion is a slippery slope.

Um... maybe she was carrying that card because she knew that this has been an issue, and she wanted to be prepared to show her rights if questioned.

I am baffled by this debate. A woman wearing a low-cut top exposes more of her breasts than most breastfeeding moms, yet who's the one told to cover up?

Yes, I will probably try to use a blanket when breastfeeding my child in public. However I would NOT feel comfortable using one provided by a restaurant, and I also can't imagine wanting to use one if I'm warm, or if baby's warm, or if baby plain and simple refuses to use one (by kicking it off, etc).

It disturbs me that we can use women's nearly naked bodies to sell everything from condoms to toothpaste, yet using your boobs to feed a baby in public? SO NOT COOL! My god, what is wrong with our culture?

trashqueen,

you come off as completely bitter and that makes your entire arguement sound completely hysterical.

"And oh, poor you for not being able to get a babysitter. Shouldn't you have thought about child care BEFORE you got pregnant?"

in a perfect world Trash, we would all have the benifit of being able to consider child-care before pregnant. I dunno if you know this, but sometimes people get accidentally pregnant!! shocking i know. and sometimes given surrounding circusmstances, people are unable to get an abortion for whatever reason, and end up with a child before they could ever consider the possibility of childcare...

honestly, you just sound bitter. This is a simple issue with a simple god damn answer and you come off as someone who hates kids and hates others for having them. I dunno why your evening bothering to talk about equal parenting... men don't make milk from their chest...

"Given that breastfeeding is worlds cheaper than buying formula, doesn't anybody see the class issues involved in shaming women who breastfeed their children in public?"

Given that pumps can be rented for free or cheap from many agencies and that bottles in which to store pumped milk are also cheap, no, I don't.

You don't have to actually put the kid to the boob every time in order to feed it. No. You don't.

Having a baby involves a massive lifestyle change, and that includes drastically limiting the time you spend at restaurants, theaters and other places where kids don't really belong. If you're not willing to work your outings around your kid's feeding schedule, then don't have the kid in the first place.

The idea that anyone has a "right" to take their smelly, noisy children anywhere they please is the height of arrogance. 35 years ago, my parents would never have dreamed of taking me, well-behaved or no, to a restaurant. Ever. They carefully scheduled evenings out for just the two of them, and made childcare arrangements for me, and enjoyed their evening away from my stinky ass. When did parents get so rude and inconsiderate that they don't do this anymore? When did we lose the idea that adults have the right to have adult spaces?

"The fact is that our breasts are meant for feeding our kids."

Um, no. They're not. Unless you're also going to argue that your mouth is only for eating and our vaginas are only meant for periods, penises and birth.

Where did all this essentialist garbage suddenly come from? Yeesh.

"The idea that anyone has a "right" to take their smelly, noisy children anywhere they please is the height of arrogance. " -Trashqueen

Sounds like someone's a baby-hater!

Trash Queen, I don't know where you're getting this stuff, but you are blowing it all out of proportion. Nobody is claiming that women are nothing more than our breasts, vaginas, wombs, or children. But the fact of the matter is that women do have children, women do breastfeed, and they should have the right to do so without being hassled.

And your whole "no children in public" stance is completely and totally baffling. Believe it or not, children are people too. (And I can't believe that I, of all people, am here having to defend the rugrats). Children have a right to leave the house, and parents have a right to take them to places that don't necessarily involve plastic ball tubs. The idea that there is something wrong with taking children into public is so totally outside anything even vaguely rational that I cannot understand where you're even coming from.

Insisting on your right to breastfeed your child is not defining yourself solely as a mother, nor is it asking for a parade because you chose to give birth. A woman who has a child is a mother, however, even if she is three dozen other things besides. And if she wishes to breastfeed her child, that's going to involve her and her breasts. Doesn't mean she's solely defined by them, but they are necessary equipment for the task.

Just as, when I wish to have sex, I can do so using my vagina without being solely defined as a sex object, and without having my vagina be the be-all end-all of me.

You're having a little trouble separating the act from that which defines a person, I think. Which is, come to think of it, the same thing that makes people say a girl who has sex casually is only good for sex. They can't separate the act from the person either.

And yes, adults have the right to adult only spaces. They're called over-21 establishments, and if you're that worked up about it I suggest you limit yourself to those. If there's a Fox and Hound or a Baker St. Pub and Grill in your town, you should be well set. Good food, no kids. Enjoy yourself.

It seems to me that most people who object to public breastfeeding do so because it offends their "delicate sensibilities". Oddly enough I was unaware of a moral or legal obligation to avoid offending people in public. If someones perfectly legal public behavior offends you, I suggest you learn to look away and ignore it.

Man, it's not even noon and the thread's been Godwinned.

Trash Queen, I find it interesting that you say "Until we divest ourselves of anything that says otherwise--including the insistence that not being a bf, attachment-parenting stay-at-home mom makes you a bad person--we are setting feminism back." and in the same comment declare that women with children should stay at home and not darken the doorstep of fine eating establishments.

Don't get me wrong, I think poorly behaved children should be taken outside, not because the existance of children in a restaurant is some shameful thing, but because NOBODY should be allowed to scream and throw things in a restaurant, no matter how short they happen to be.

I'd much rather have the woman at the next table in a restaurant be quietly breastfeeding a child than have the woman at the next table be ranting against the FUCKING NERVE of women with functioning breasts who dare to leave! the! house! with their children!

My goodness. It wasn't so long ago that visible pregnancy was considered a shameful thing.

I find it really interesting that we have enough people here saying "OMG! She must keep her boobs covered at all times!!!!! They offend me!!!" as long as a child is attached. However, if the woman was wearing a revealing shirt it's anti-feminist to complain? Maybe most of you haven't seen a woman breastfeeding, but what your average college student wears to class shows more of the breast than a breastfeeding infant. Heck, go to the beach and it's even worse.

Breastfeeding is free, healthy, and all that good stuff. Moreover, it HURTS to not breastfeed. If you don't believe me, google engorgement.

Women have breasts. Breasts are for feeding babies. Mothers should be allowed out in public, and babies should eat when they're hungry. If you have a problem with it, look away. Otherwise, shut up.

The Trash Quenn-- correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought women's rights and feminism was about giving women the RIGHT to CHOOSE what they want to be. I'm not saying all moms need to breastfeed and stay at home. I realize that simply is not in their best interests, and I respect that.

Yet I plan to breastfeed and stay at home, and I expect not to be harassed about it, or be told I'm an "anti-feminist" simply b/c these are the choices I'm making with my life. So what if motherhood is important to me? Why should I not take pride in that, as other women take pride in their careers, or whatever else is important to them?

For years men told women that they HAD to stay home, that they HAD to take care of the kids, etc. Well, now here you are, telling me that I'm not allowed to do these things EVEN THOUGH I FREELY CHOOSE TO. That is just as oppressive. And it certainly ain't feminism, either.

I have to say, yes, she was picking a fight. I also have to say that I loved this site when I was at a time in my life that I was questioning the feminism machine, but the lack of two sided (or more) reporting and the love of snap judgments without the willingness to look at the other side of the equation or even acknowledge how the other person(s) involved may have seen something has really gotten old.

Maybe this is my inner babysitter talking, but if you love your children, you do not use them as a weapon. A nurse-in is not something to be applauded when the facts are skewed by the loudest "hurt" party. And picking on minimum wage workers like they're something you stepped in and can't quite shake off your shoe? No thanks.

There are times when nurse-ins can be useful and helpful. There are times when we can get so butthurt about the smallest thing that we wield the biggest weapon when we shouldn't. There was an incident where a mother demanded a nurse-in because a clerk asked that she use the lactation site to nurse her child. How dare someone ask her to move from the front of the (noisy, crowded, germ-infested, anxiety-inducing) store! Pardon my skepticism in this case, and others like it.

well put Marcy!

I don't think trash queen is a feminist anyway... maybe a self-riteous supremist?! heh.

I've seen breast feeding women that are so discrete, you would barely know it's happening. I have ALSO seen breastfeeding women letting it all hang out, including the breast not currently feeding. Same with kids, some are great, some are monsters. Both extremes happen, only acknowledging the one that supports your arguments does no one any favors.

Kimmy: Scolding comments along the line of 'that's already been said' aren't helpful. The comments are flying fast and furious When I started mine I was 4th and ended 28th. Also, a mother can bring her own blanket rather than use a grody restaurant one. If the baby detests the blanket there are may types of clothing that lend themselves to discretion. It's not all or nothing.

Only one or two posters have been adamantly anti-breastfeeding. Please keep that in mind when addressing comments to "you people".

Why does breast feeding seem to be the only feminist issue where we're discouraged to speak up when we're uncomfortable? Usually we encourage people to speak their discomfort. No one is making the mother comply.

Personal disclosure: I breastfed my baby for fourteen months. It was good for both of us. It was healthy. It was natural. Other people may make other decisions. Good for them. But please know, breastfeeding a baby for seven months, or fourteen months, or two years if mother and baby are benefitting, is not a freakish aberration!

I never breastfed in public because I'm shy, but if she had needed to eat I would have done it. And anyone who tried to get me to 'cover up' would get an earful, because it's hard to keep a baby from pulling a cover off once they learn how to use their little hands.

I appreciate when people use discretion in public, but for a breastfeeding mother I believe that discretion means sitting in as quiet an area as possible and exposing just enough to get the baby what he/she needs. To expect breast-feeding burkhas and a crazy level of body shame? No. Emphatically, no.

Breastfeeding is natural. Breastfeeding is beautiful. If you are grossed out by it please know that it is your problem. GET OVER IT.

And stop being nosey. Nobody made you look.

I don't think they were completely wrong. They didn't make her STOP, they just asked her to cover up with a blanket. I understand that she needed to feed her baby, but I don't necessarily want boob with my chicken salad. She's within her right to feed, but she should understand that not everyone wants to see her do that over dinner. So covering up or doing it in the restroom are not unreasonable requests. specially if other patrons were unhappy.

"The Trash Quenn-- correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought women's rights and feminism was about giving women the RIGHT to CHOOSE what they want to be."

Absolutely. But it's about the rights of ALL women. Not just you. And that means that if you truly care about the rights of other women, you won't advocate ideas that set us all back.

Advocating the idea that "boobs are (only; primarily) for breastfeeding does exactly that. Advocating that motherhood is some sort of saintly state does exactly that. Arguing that feeding a child is solely or primarily a women's issue does exactly that.

All around us, other people continue to define us solely or primarily by our bodily functions. Why do we women continue to do this to each other? Why do we continue to act as if what we can do with our breasts and vaginas is the most important part of who we are?

For centuries, men have managed to be parents without having their children define who they are and what matters most about them. Feminists have been struggling to achieve that state for decades. How, then, is it remotely possible that arguing for a body-centric, essentialist view of womanhood is remotely feminist?

I am not anti-child. In fact, I adore kids. I simply refuse to be defined by whether I have them, and women who not only allow this, but advocate such definition for other women piss me off.

Parenting is important. And it's important regardless of whether one has a vagina. Until the boob nazi brigade releases its death grip on parenting, women will still feel intense pressure to define themselves by their wombs, and men will still feel intense pressure to emotionally detach themselves from their children. Is this really the kind of world we want for both men and women? Do we still want a world in which other women look down on us if we're 35 and unmarried or don't have kids?

I entirely agree that women (and men--which almost never gets discussed) should have the option of staying home with young children. What I argue against is the idea that doing so is somehow noble, ideal or something that should, in ANY way, be advocated. Do it if you want to, but STFU about how great you are for having done so, and how lousy other women are for not doing so.

In other words: it's not the state of being a mother, or bfing or staying at home that's the problem: it's acting as if doing those things are a feminist act. Because they absolutely, completely, totally are not.

I don't get what the problem is. At the very least, breastfeeding is an almost sure-fire way to shut the little %^*$#( up. I would rather sit next to a happy baby and a boob than a screaming baby any day.

I would suggest that the chain ban children, but they bill themselves as family restaurants, so that is obviously not an option.

"In other words: it's not the state of being a mother, or bfing or staying at home that's the problem: it's acting as if doing those things are a feminist act. Because they absolutely, completely, totally are not. "

Trashqueen, who suggested that those things are a feminist act?! I'm not getting where your getting this from? I don't recall reading a comment like that on this post..

Trash Queen, the only one on this thread arguing that women with children should stay home and shut up appears to be...you.

This is very much a feminist issue. It seems to me that women are always reprimanded when it comes to child issues. Women have failed their supposed primary duty if they do not want children. I do not want children, so I fall into this category and know very well how this is largely seen as a failure of my "duties." Don't get me started.

But those who decide to have children are also reprimanded, and this is another example of exactly that. Women with babies should not be confined to their homes. And they should be able to do what they must to care for their children should they leave their homes. It just seems like a giant double standard to me for women to be encouraged so strongly to have children, but once they have them, to be banned from public spaces to do what they need to do to care for them. It all looks a lot like woman-hate to me.

"There was an incident where a mother demanded a nurse-in because a clerk asked that she use the lactation site to nurse her child. How dare someone ask her to move from the front of the (noisy, crowded, germ-infested, anxiety-inducing) store! Pardon my skepticism in this case, and others like it."

Exactly.

Let's be perfectly honest about what this movement is about. This movement has nothing whatsoever to do with wanting to quietly feed one's child, and everything to do with wanting a hell of a lot of attention for having the ability to make food from one's boobs.

I stand behind my statement that the women who are on this crusade have bought into the brainwashing that tells them that being a mother is their highest purpose. And anyone who claims the label of feminist ought to be offended by this.

Get a grip, people! Applebee's is a "family" restaurant. They depend on families eating there--you shouldn't have to check your breastfeeding infant at the door when you bring your other kids there for dinner. If you want to go someplace that doesn't have small children, go to a bar. This is a place that has a kid's menu, it's not Jean Georges. I do agree that there are places that small children aren't welcome, such as PG-13 and up movies, but Applebee's is not one of them.

Also, women breastfeed. It's natural and normal. I've never done it, but I've heard that pumping is not natural, normal, or particularly pleasant for anyone. Women shouldn't be forced to pump except in circumstances where they're going to be separated from their kids for a while, such as a work day. They certainly shouldn't have to pump so that a bunch of prissy a-holes don't have to be subjected to the perfectly normal sight of a woman breastfeeding her child. If it bothers you, don't look at them!

I'm all for breastfeeding in public. I breastfed my son 'til he was about 6 months old. But whenever I was in public, I always had a burp cloth to cover myself mostly because there ARE creepy men who will just sit and stare at you. But other than that, I always tried to be discreet and when I couldn't, well, it's just breasts, right?

I understand the weirdness it creates for the server. When I worked at a chain restaurant, several times the other waitresses would complain that a woman at their table just whipped it out and started breastfeeding with absolutely no shame and it made them feel uncomfortable. I think people mostly feel uncomfortable trying to have a simple conversation with someone who is breastfeeding, which until recently has been considered a private act.

And someone towards the top made a comment about if it's really appropriate to bring young one's to "nice restaurants". I have been bringing my son to fine dining restaurants since he was pretty much born. But maybe because I'm lucky and he isn't incredibly fussy and is extremely well-behaved. Of course now that he's older he makes a huge mess on the floor, but I always try to clean up behind us and make it easier for the waitress/busser. I know what it's like to be in their shoes. But honestly, it IS their job. Someone else mentioned that these poor waiters/bussers are only making like $4.30/hr. Well, once you include tips it generally averages out to $11-12/hr.

TrashQueen: "Boob Nazi brigade?" Oh, please. Try to address the arguments here rather than the easy-to-refute strawmen that you would prefer to argue.

You have allowed your disturbing hatred of children to cloud your thinking on this subject. The issue here is whether women should be ashamed of a natural process which involves little more exposure than happens in normal life in other contexts. Should women be forced to develop special breast-feeding burkhas if their little ones need to be fed in public? Should they just stay home instead? Why are women visible at all? They're so unsightly, with their milk and their unwieldy bodies. Why don't they just become invisible until the menz want something?

That's the issue here. And the feminist response? If a woman needs to breastfeed her baby in public she should do so. And if she doesn't want to she should choose not to. And if she doesn't want children she should be free not to have them. And if she does want children she should be free to have as many as she feels she can love and raise responsibly. Women should be free; as free as men though sometimes our bodies do things that men's bodies do not.

See? Simple.

I am so worked up about this comments section I don't know what to say. Having a 2 year old I remember how much I went through in the first year. Being a new parent is so hard because you are pulled in so many ways, depending on if you work, stay home, breastfeed, plus all of the newfangled parenting techniques. I mean you are villified by healthcare professionals if you don't breastfeed, if you don't breastfeed long enough and by the public if you do breastfeed. The same goes if you work, or don't work, or whatever.

When I was pregnant I worked in a non-profit, which was a very satisfying yet low paying job. I could only afford 3 weeks of maternity leave, but the plus side was being able to bring my daughter with me to work until she turned 6 months old. Yet, when I would shut my office door and either breastfeed or pump and forget to lock the door I would have co-workers who would burst in without knocking and then act all offended. Much of the conversation above reminds me of this happening. If you don't want to see someone breastfeeding just turn away and stop looking.

I chose to use a blanket (which had more to do with body issues, since I am plus sized and all the nifty maternity/breastfeeding clothing is really hard to find if you are above a size12), but I couldn't imagine doing that during the summer, which regularly hits 105 degrees during the summer. Luckily my daughter was born in November.

Ultimately I was wanting to say that I think our job as feminists is to support a society where women aren't punished for their gender as well as supported for their choices (unlike Trash Queen who seems to reject all others who don't believe the same as she does). I find most the anti-breastfeeding comments to be saddening, especially on a feminist blog.

I am so worked up about this comments section I don't know what to say. Having a 2 year old I remember how much I went through in the first year. Being a new parent is so hard because you are pulled in so many ways, depending on if you work, stay home, breastfeed, plus all of the newfangled parenting techniques. I mean you are villified by healthcare professionals if you don't breastfeed, if you don't breastfeed long enough and by the public if you do breastfeed. The same goes if you work, or don't work, or whatever.

When I was pregnant I worked in a non-profit, which was a very satisfying yet low paying job. I could only afford 3 weeks of maternity leave, but the plus side was being able to bring my daughter with me to work until she turned 6 months old. Yet, when I would shut my office door and either breastfeed or pump and forget to lock the door I would have co-workers who would burst in without knocking and then act all offended. Much of the conversation above reminds me of this happening. If you don't want to see someone breastfeeding just turn away and stop looking.

I chose to use a blanket (which had more to do with body issues, since I am plus sized and all the nifty maternity/breastfeeding clothing is really hard to find if you are above a size12), but I couldn't imagine doing that during the summer, which regularly hits 105 degrees during the summer. Luckily my daughter was born in November.

Ultimately I was wanting to say that I think our job as feminists is to support a society where women aren't punished for their gender as well as supported for their choices (unlike Trash Queen who seems to reject all others who don't believe the same as she does). I find most the anti-breastfeeding comments to be saddening, especially on a feminist blog.

Trash Queen, I don't mean this as an insult, but it's obvious that you've never breastfed.

I do.

The ONLY way for an exclusively-breastfed baby to not be breastfed in public is for the mother to be tied to the house. Babies (especially newborns) are hungry often, and they don't follow a schedule well.

Is that what you'd like? A return to the Victorian era?

As for pumping -

1) Pumping is time-consuming, painful, and inefficient. Using a GOOD pump, I can pump for 1/2 an hour and produce less than my daughter gets in 10 minutes.

2) Breast feeding works on supply and demand. When the baby cries, the boob fills. It is physically painful to not feed the child at that point.

I am a feminist, and I freely admit that breastfeeding was/is my choice. Honestly, it's primarily an economic one - I'm a poor graduate student and literally cannot afford $300/month in formula.

Should my choice mean that I am never free to go to a restaurant? That I am never free to go out in public? Should I be "ashamed" because my chosen method of feeding happens to involve my breasts?

Oh, and as far as restrooms - ick! Should I sit on the floor, or crouch on the stool? They are dirty places designed for urination and defacation, NOT eating. If you are offended the next time you "see" someone breastfeeding, I suggest that you order your sandwich to be served in the Ladies' Room. That should solve the problem.

I am so worked up about this comments section I don't know what to say. Having a 2 year old I remember how much I went through in the first year. Being a new parent is so hard because you are pulled in so many ways, depending on if you work, stay home, breastfeed, plus all of the newfangled parenting techniques. I mean you are villified by healthcare professionals if you don't breastfeed, if you don't breastfeed long enough and by the public if you do breastfeed. The same goes if you work, or don't work, or whatever.

When I was pregnant I worked in a non-profit, which was a very satisfying yet low paying job. I could only afford 3 weeks of maternity leave, but the plus side was being able to bring my daughter with me to work until she turned 6 months old. Yet, when I would shut my office door and either breastfeed or pump and forget to lock the door I would have co-workers who would burst in without knocking and then act all offended. Much of the conversation above reminds me of this happening. If you don't want to see someone breastfeeding just turn away and stop looking.

I chose to use a blanket (which had more to do with body issues, since I am plus sized and all the nifty maternity/breastfeeding clothing is really hard to find if you are above a size12), but I couldn't imagine doing that during the summer, which regularly hits 105 degrees during the summer. Luckily my daughter was born in November.

Ultimately I was wanting to say that I think our job as feminists is to support a society where women aren't punished for their gender as well as supported for their choices (unlike Trash Queen who seems to reject all others who don't believe the same as she does). I find most the anti-breastfeeding comments to be saddening, especially on a feminist blog.

"Women with babies should not be confined to their homes."

Straw man. No one is arguing this. Especially not me.

What I'm arguing is that parents need to plan better for their outings and:

1. Plan outings around feeding times.

2. Plan to go to kid-friendly places.

and/or

3. Find a sitter.

Why is this so complicated? Why is this even a point of contention? How can people be so self-centered and arrogant that they believe that they have a right to take their kids anywhere they choose, even if it annoys the crap out of other people? I'm sorry, but your "right" to tote your kid around does not trump my "right" to enjoy a nice meal or an R-rated movie without a screaming, pooping kid or some stranger's naked boob next to me.

The key issue here is this: kids do not belong EVERYWHERE. If you want to go to an adult-aimed place, LEAVE THEM AT HOME. You're not being locked up at home like a prisoner. You're only being asked to be considerate of others and keep the kid out of places it doesn't belong, and to act like a mature, respectful person when you do have the kid along.

Millions of women have children. Millions breastfeed. And yet there's only a handful who are on this crusade to tote their kids along to every place, and feed them in obtrusive ways. Being annoyed by this arrogant, selfish behavior is in no way anti-child or anti-woman. It's anti-rudeness.

Sorry about the triple post, I am having Internet Explorer issues.

1. If you don't like it, then don't look. Why are people staring at this woman's breast? How hard is it to look away, sheesh?

2. Applebee's is NOT a "nice" restaurant. It's perfectly appropriate to bring your kids there. Anyone going there thinking they will have a quiet dinner is just stupid.

3. Sure, lots of kids are loud or misbehave, but same with adults, and we don't expect them to be "taken outside." We just feel annoyed and deal with it. But when it's kids, it's like "get them the hell outta here!!!!"

4. Trash Queen, you have some serious issues you might want to address. Seriously.

TrashQueen: Are you trying to suggest that Applebee's is an adult oriented place? It isn't. It's a crappy family restaurant. OK? Good. Argument over then. What else are we doing today?

Trashqueen, this crusade you speak of sound very paranoid... and silly.

On a side note: does anyone here who has kids, actually ahve the choice to be a stay at home mom? I'm just curious because I would love to but I really don't think it's financially possible and i'm worried about how the whole full-time work and baby will work out... my mom was stay at home through most of my elementary years so I couldn't really ask her..