both our denomination and our nation will be destroyed.

Call me crazy, but I think they're way more worried about the former than the latter. And they have reason. Fewer and fewer female teenagers are submitting to the traditional gender roles prescribed for them by patriarchal churches.

Further proof that certain segments of the population have lost touch with reality and gone into a time-warp.

Wait - I thought we women were naturally equipped with the knowledge of how to cook, clean, raise children and graciously submit. Why spend money on a degree in something you're born knowing!?

"Biblical model for home and family"

Right, so that means sleeping with your wife's maid in order to have kids?

SarahMC---hahahahahahahahahahaha!

Seriously, is this place accredited?

"Coursework for the program includes nutrition and meal preparation, textile design and classes on "the value of a child" and the "biblical model for the home and family."

Meanwhile, up the road at North Southwest by Northern, the parallel course emphasizes fry in ketchup-dipping, Hungry Man-nuking, beer can-crumpling and fart while saying grace -suppression. And of course it's only open to men.

If they truly wanted a return to traditional family values, why would they let the women into higher education at all?

You know, I've always advocated that we need to reach out and work with the religious right to come up with some common grounds because it's better to befriend them than to push them away. But stories like these are the reasons I am not so sure I believe that I preach anymore, when it comes to "feminist outreach."

Betty Friedan is rolling over in her grave.

If they truly wanted a return to traditional family values, why would they let the women into higher education at all?

To meet eligible young men, obviously.

I think that some of these skills are certainly good for people to know- PEOPLE, not just women. But I doubt these courses are intense enough to count as a major- after all, most college majors are more theoretical, or at least have some theory involved. And I don't think I would spend college money to learn them.

On one (very small) level, I think classes of this sort are worthwhile. Hell, I could have used some formal educating in how to cook, because my mother was a horrendous cook and my childhood education was no higher than "this is how to boil spaghetti."

But advertising this as "how to work for your man" or "how to fulfill your role in the hole" or similar shit... disgusting.

And "biblical model" for the home... sorry, I've read the Old Testament, and there's lots in there I don't want my family to go through. Although -- maybe this college course can teach my daughter enough cooking skills to make stew to buy birthright away from her brother? Hmmm...

On one hand, this disgusts me to no end. It's not surprising, mind you, but it turns my stomach.

On the other hand, the husband and I have both joked that our university should have had mandatory classes for both genders covering such topics as "which fork for what" "how to time a dinner party when both spouses work" "food and wine, a beginner's guide to life-long exploration" and such. We have dubbed this dream as the "grown-up minor," but it's only in jest.

Why don't they just call it an MRS already? Honestly.

"Coursework for the program includes nutrition and meal preparation, textile design..."

You see, people learning these things in college doesn't really bother me all that much--if they're interested in cooking or sewing, then that's cool. However...

"and classes on "the value of a child" and the "biblical model for the home and family.""
'The Biblical model for the home and family' being taught as PART OF a nonpartisan class on Christian theology, say, I don't have a problem with. But the way it sounds here, it won't be nonpartisan, it will be: "this is what you're supposed to do."

Oh, and this: "The program is only open to women."--seriously pisses me off. If these peoples' TRUE intent was to preserve the 'nuclear family,' then they would be teaching both men AND women about 'the value of a child', 'the Christian family', 'nutrition', EVERYTHING. As they're NOT, then really what this program is meant for is keeping the women in submission to their eventual husbands. They don't care about the well-being of the possible children, they only care about keeping the mens' place higher than the womens'.

"Seriously, is this place accredited?"

If Pat Robertson's law school can get accredited, what do you think?

"Right, so that means sleeping with your wife's maid in order to have kids?"

Exactly, so for example Sen. David Vitter isn't being a hypocrite for championing "traditional family values" while paying prostitutes for sex, because men have been paying prostitutes for sex for thousands of year, so clearly that makes it a part of traditional family values.

. . . and now I'm sick.

I'd also like to point out, before all hell inevitably breaks loose, that thinking this kind of college major-- particularly when it's only open to women-- is demeaning bullshit is IN NO WAY belittling to those women who choose to be stay at home mothers. In fact, I'd say that it's a testament to our respect for stay at home mothers that we're grossed out about this "university" reducing their status to a "biblical model for the home and family."

I think that it's gross that they are trying to forward these pointless ideals of femininity. On the other hand, I would have taken some of these classes. I always wanted to learn how to make clothes.

I'm completely disgusted. I'd think it was a great idea if they gave classes on some of this stuff that were open to everyone, and most likely not as a major, but this is terrible. Not only do I not particularly like rigid gender roles and the idea of submission on the basis of sex, but the idea that women should pay money to go to college only to learn things that won't support them financially is just dangerous. How are you going to pay off your student loans if you don't get married to someone who makes enough money to support you while you stay at home and do a really great job of being a homemaker? What if you don't get married at all? Does that not even occur to these people? Ok, there are always jobs that don't require a lot of skill, but I still think this is bad on a level even beyond the obvious. And to echo Cara, if a woman chooses to be a homemaker that's great, but the choice to be a homemaker is dependent on the finances to make that possible, and I doubt most college-age women have that security yet. Plus they don't need their college telling them - or men - which choice to make.

Also, when I think of the SAHMs that I know, "submission" usually doesn't enter into that equation.

Did anyone else ever see the MST3K short on Home Economics?

Hilarious.

Also, it's interesting that all those "biblical model of the family" folks never quite remember that there's really nowhere in the Bible where the modern ideal of "family" is demonstrated. The two arguably most important families in the Bible are the Abrahamic line and the Holy Family, and those are either full of polygamy and concubines or the father is basically a prop.

What I find funny is that this sort of thing is not at all new, it's just been brought back out of a different era. My great great aunt was the first college educated woman in her family, and she went to UC Berkeley as (wait for it) a Home Economics major. I mean, I don't disparage her for it, and I know she was sent for an MRS, but (and I kid you not), her final in one class was to demonstrate to the class how to properly fold a fitted bed sheet. Needless to say, Berkeley most likely didn't connect it to the Bible, and they no longer offer that program, but at one time the programs were really common.

A good public education should include a baseline understanding of:

*nutrition and meal preparation
*personal finance/retirement planning
*home upkeep and repairs
*basic sewing
*um, duh, comprehensive sex education

For all human beings, of course! This college is obviously a finishing school for pastors' wives, and I hope its students find their way to a broader worldview at some point. But this "major" is absurd.

That's so true, Maggie. The Bible says stuff about submission, but it never says men should work and women should stay at home, not that I know of. This idea that the breadwinner/homemaker relationship is normal, traditional, and only got messed up after WWII is so ignorant of history and other classes and other cultures. Not to mention alternative sexualities, but if they won't listen to history, they probably won't listen to that either.

This is bullshit. A woman shouldn't attend school at all. Once she reaches childbearing age, her father should sell her off to an older man for a few cows. Then she will stay in the house all day, doing chores and cooking and giving her husband sex whenever he feels like it, even if she doesn't. She will have children until menopause or until she dies. And she will take care of those children. She will teach her sons to be more important than their sisters, and to take their father's property when he dies, leaving their mother with nothing. She will teach her daughters to be just like her.

Traditional biblical gender roles! Yay!

I'm a little surprised that so many people would endorse some of these classes as part of a college education. Maybe it's just because I had to pay my way through, but I would absolutely not have paid $300 per credit hour for someone to show me how to cook. There are plenty of places within a city where a person can take cooking classes, sewing classes, or wine tasting classes.

It's not that I'm against sewing courses; I had to take one when I was getting my theatre degree, because I needed to know how to make costumes, and went beyond basic stitching to analyzing the lines of different eras, etc. My best friend was a clothing design major, so that fit there, too. But basic nutrition and these other things seem to fit better into a home-ec course in high school.

Maybe I'm way off base here, but I always felt that college, outside of vocational schools where you are taught a specific trade, were for studying things like advanced math, philosophy, sociology, theatre, business, and if you want to learn to cook, you either go to culinary school, or look up your local craft store or activity section in the paper for classes.

I wonder if the school will offer any classes on Christian Domestic Discipline (http://www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com/). Seems like there is some real room for debate over what constitutes a "biblical" model for the home! I'm just sayin'...

What is truly amazing is the poor young women that buy into it. As a former christian, I would never have signed myself up for such b-llshit. And now, I can hardly utter that words "each to her own." How disgusting is that? I hope the seminary plans to pay these women for their "careers" as wives and mothers, including weekends, holidays, and overtime!!

The thought process behind it:

"we don't want college educated women....but we want their tuition money....how do we make this work?"

Seriously though, I think some version of home/life skills should be required in ALL high schools for ALL students. Things like how to balance a checkbook, how to apply for a loan, how to cook nutritious meals, why insurance is important, etc.

wow... what a piece of crap degree.. even more so the school is crap.
Only two women faculty, it seems... http://www.swbts.edu/womensprograms

Also looking at some of the so called 'graduate' degrees at this place were you could receive a 'Doctor of Ministry' with a concentration in.... (here's a few examples)

"Expositional Preaching, Pastoral Leadership, Chaplaincy, Christian Worldview and Cultural Engagement"

An old friend currently attends Masters College in CA. Her major is Home Economics. According to their website, she is, "Becoming a Woman Who Pleases God."

An old friend currently attends Masters College in CA. Her major is Home Economics. According to their website, she is, "Becoming a Woman Who Pleases God."

http://www.masters.edu/DeptPageNew.asp?PageID=14

Apologies for consecutive posts, but I have no idea who "Joshua Louden" is or is not.

I agree with Kissmypineapple re: the purpose of a college degree.
I mean, what is the entrance requirement for this silly program? The possession of a vagina, I presume.
It seems like they're creating degrees for just about anything these days. Shouldn't one have to prove onesself capable in some capacity in order to obtain a degree? What does a BA or BS even mean anymore? It certainly doesn't signify academic excellence - not when anyone can waltz into a college/University and get herself a degree in homemaking.
Today's bachelors degree is yesterday's high school degree. It barely even means anything.

I wonder what the core classes are like? I mean, I majored in chemistry, but I had to take like 40 hours of a core curriculum that everyone, no matter their major took. If majoring in homemaking is the only way some girls get to go to college, it might not be a bad thing if it means they're accidentally being taught some basic math, English, and computer skills.

Something told me Avogadro was into chemistry ; ).

I just looked at that Christian Domestic Discipline website someone mentioned, and ahhhhhhhh! I'm trying to be open-minded and non-judgmental but that honestly scares me. It's where men can spank their wives when they misbehave. (Oddly, the website refuses to discuss whether spanking children is ok. It's a pretty hilarious website, though - they're open to different opinions as long as you believe the Bible is inerrant, etc. Haha.) They back it up by saying it's been done throughout history...as if they forgot that women have been oppressed throughout history and "it used to happen" doesn't mean "it's a good idea." They say it's different from domestic violence, and they accept that, even though the Bible says (according to them) men can spank their wives without the wives' consent, the law says otherwise, but it still shook me up to think about it.

"Further proof that certain segments of the population have lost touch with reality and gone into a time-warp."

Not exactly. If they really did go into a time-warp, wouldn't they expect engagement rings in high school a la the 1950s...

"'If they truly wanted a return to traditional family values, why would they let the women into higher education at all?'

"To meet eligible young men, obviously."

Yeah, this program is as M.R.S. degree as it gets.

It's still less traditional than sitting at home waiting for an arranged marriage, though.

"What if you don't get married at all? Does that not even occur to these people?"

The people paying their tuition probably think "My little darling's so special, it's impossible that no man will want her!!!"

"If majoring in homemaking is the only way some girls get to go to college, it might not be a bad thing if it means they're accidentally being taught some basic math, English, and computer skills."

Interesting point.

"basic nutrition and these other things seem to fit better into a home-ec course in high school."

Heh...funny story--when my boyfriend was in high school he took a course which basically was Home Ec, but was called 'sports nutrition' or something like that--he dropped out of it because people in the class had to design a menu with specific nutritious foods for two weeks or so, and he didn't like any of the food on the list. So--guys will take this sort of class, but they might not stuck with them.

yeah, unfortunately this is nothing new. there are several fundamentalist or otherwise conservative schools out there that offer similar programs for women only, as well as offering many of their programs for men only (like pastoral theology--women can know about the Bible but they can't learn how to teach about it). I can't recall any specific names right now but it's the usual offenders like Bob Jones, Pensacola, Hyles-Anderson, etc.

Does anyone really need a degree in homemaking? This does not only sound anti-feminist, but a complete waste of money! Although maybe not...I guess if I was brainwashed into thinking I was serving a higher power by washing dishes, it would sure add more meaning to my life. I would love to be passionate about changing diapers and vacuuming. I wonder if one of the courses is how to abandon your self respect.

"...programs for men only (like pastoral theology--women can know about the Bible but they can't learn how to teach about it)."

That's what the Bible says. A woman should not be allowed to teach. Don't have an exact quote on that, but it's in there. Probably the Old Testament.

Anyway, shit like that was just put in the Bible to keep women down; a lot of what's in the Bible is just political stuff. That's why I don't like it when people interpret the Bible and other religious texts literally. The general idea of the Bible is not to subjugate, but to get along with each other and all that good stuff.

I wonder if one of the courses is how to abandon your self respect.

Well, that's just a standard university offering (in fact, the only thing that remained consistent in the three universities in two countries that I attended over a period of several years).

It's actually somewhat funny to hear a fundamentalist institution talking about teaching submissiveness as if that weren't a core element of a university education already. The one consistent feature of the educational system at all levels is doing what you're told without question.

Sadly, Queen_Nerd, it's even in the New Testament. 1 Timothy says that women shouldn't teach men and that they should learn in silence and submission (and that they'll be saved through childbearing!). The submitting to your husband thing is in Ephesians 5, and I think a few other places as well. The not speaking in church thing, which some people interpret to mean women can't be pastors/priests is in 1 Corinthians 14. Those are all written by Paul, who, strangely, is also the one who wrote that there is neither male nor female in Christ.

Dot dot dot

Are they serious?

@ SarahMC – I think we should write and inquire in extreme gynaecological detail to ask what the qualifications for joining the course are.
Which parts of genitalia have to be intact? What if one has had surgery? Are we graded by the regularity of our menstrual cycle?

Oh god, Bowleserised; such inquiries would surely have them clutching their pearls.
I'm guessing the hymen needs to be intact.

You know, I used to be a born-again Christian at a crazy ridiculously strict school, and even then they still taught us about feminism...and I was one, despite believing fervently in God. They also taught us that God was genderless, and they just say "Him" in the Bible because of translation. Was my school just an anomaly?

The best part of this post is that someone with a theater degree is claiming that taking college classes to learn to cook is a waste.

My grandma is a pastor, and she says it's the must fufilling job she's ever had.

And ironically she was talking to me about baptists last night -- she calls them the "thou shalt not" religion.

And Keith starts in with the personal attacks.

Let's see...

With a theater degree:

One learns a skill or trade (depending on whether your focus is performance or behind-the-scenes work) she can apply in a real-world job for which she'll be compensated.

One is not denied admission due to gender.

One gains personal fulfillment.

With a homemaker degree:

Nope. Unless she can escape the prison of her household for a restaurant or hotel job. But considering the description of the course, that's definitely not the purpose.

Nope again.

Eh, I guess she could convince herself of that.

Ouch.

Every time I read "traditional" values or gender roles, I think, "from what era?" Not every time and culture ran things like 1950s sitcoms or Victorian England.

You know, I have to wonder to what extent Dr. Patterson's obsession with "biblical family and gender roles," reflects insecurity with his own masculinity due to having the typically female first name "Paige."

I just had a flashback to my childhood.

I was a member of this denomination. I was a kid in Sunday school. After a bible story, I asked "why can men in the bible have more than one wife, and women can't have more than one husband?" My teacher said "Because men are better than women." The discussion was then closed.

This was out of a female teacher.

And yet, they wonder why I refuse to set foot in that church.

I am not a Christian, I do identify as a feminist AND I stay at home. I have an English degree from the College of St. Catherine and was pursuing my Master's until I got bored with it. I am currently a midwifery student and do a tad bit of freelance writing. My main goal righ tnow in my lie though is to be at home with my children-by my choice! my husband cares not what I do just so long as my heart is in it.

I am a pretty damn good cook, home keeper and green cleaner, not to mention seamstress and gardener. I would teach these courses to anyone who asked, because dad's can stay home too. I would teach them at a helluva discount though.

a little OT: I am reading htis from the link on the CDD piece you did. My brain itches reading those websites. I clicked one fo the authors page links and it came to this yahoo 360 page. the dude is a serious perv with a little dick who justifies beating his wife because he has a little dick and he hides behind the Bible. Sick.

:D