The church lady is from saturday night live. I think (s)he was played by Dana Carvey.

'Ness this just shows that the world's not in touch with how we want it to be -i work weekends at a cinema and i get much sexism and harrasment - i talked to some of the others and it's all "I need this job and can't afford to make waves" etc etc

My response to those guys?

"Hey, give it a rest. There's a person attached to those breasts. Do you think she'd go out with you if she heard you talking like that? No? Why not? Oh, because it's sexist and just plain rude. Why don't we all try to be adults here, hmmm?"

There really isn't any good response to make, but this is definitely a bad one.

If the people in question are in your personal space/not your boss, saying "you're being an ass," is sometimes necessary. Explaining, reasoning, etc. are futile; such conversations are dominance displays, and guys doing them are not interested in arguments. They know they're wrong, all you can do is call them on it in a way that makes your opinion clear. And then leave it.

If it's true harassment, in that they are obviously targeting you specifically with such conversations, then document, document, document, because if it doesn't stop you either have to quit or go to HR.

Make notes, get the secretary on side - then sue for millions. Wow, reminds me how much I prefer being self-employed though.

As someone who was so sexually harrassed at my job that I was forced to quit in the end, this infuriates me. I had a really hard time sticking up for myself (for fear of unemployment,) and everyone in my life was supporting me to do so. In the end I was so afraid to go to work that I couldn't do my job properly anyway, so I decided to can it and go freelance. Best (scariest) decision I ever made. My co-workers mostly remained silent on the issue but would say in private that they were offended - I think if they laughed along, as per Marie Claire's advice , I would have had a complete meltdown.

Wow, I could give way better advice from this.

"What is this, A bar, who is buying my martini? Ohhh wait we're at work, I couldn't tell, the conversation was so completely inappropriate for the workplace."

"I'm so glad that you've all finally reached puberty. Don't you think the receptionist is just a tad old for you?"

In the end to confront harassers you need to find a strategy that you are comfortable with and confident with. Beign confident in your treatment of might help them respect you more. (Or it will help them do more harassing things that you can take to HR and use to sue the pants off of them.....whichever.)

Dear Cubicle Coach: To fit in with "the guys", I laugh at their inappropriate jokes and let them make rude, sexual comments about me and my female co-workers. I've started to notice that I hate coming in to work, am less productive, and cry a lot even when I'm at home. Do you think these two things could be correlated?

Idiocy. Not only is that answer just wrong but it isn't going to do your career any good either. Anyone think these asshat co-workers are going to treat their female (non-subordinate) co-workers with any type of respect? Not a chance. When working in these environments (and I've spent nearly all of my career working in one or another of them) the appropriate response is shocked condescension.

"Excuse me?* Are you talking about Kathy? I can't believe you would treat her that way. She is such a nice person." Then stroll off shaking your head in dismay.

Sure they'll think you're a bitch...but well...so what? In most instances it won't effect your career (it might enhance it) since in alpha male work places, you will not get any respect if you let people push you around.

*Use your imperious voice here with a shocked eyebrow.

I deal with this a lot because I work in a male-dominated field. Most of the guys are work with are well behaved. A few aren't. My response to off behavior is to give the guy a weird look and say "you're being creepy. Stop it!" The trick is that I say it in a lighthearted way. It's hard to type so it comes out right, but I say it as if I'm teasing them. I think that it works because nobody likes being called creepy. A "bad boy" has allure. A creepy guy is never ever ever going to get laid. Then I change the subject and act like nothing happened.

This is not the most feminist way of dealing with the problem. Sometimes I wish I could just give a lecture on the whole boobs-are-attached-to-women issue. But I'm very fond of my job and I'm afraid of alienating people. When I'm the one in charge, it'll be different... but I'm a lowly graduate student now.

In college, a group of guys had formed a facebook group where they made lecherous and totally inappropriate comments about a young girl (seriously young - maybe 16 years old) who worked in the cafeteria. When the comments moved from sleezy to creepy (jokes about 'surprise sex'. Fuckers.) myself and two friends decide to give them a fright. We faked a letter from the Dean to all of them, saying they had been accused of harassment and would be suspended from school if the group and all comments did not cease immediately. Cue days of freaked out looking boys and no more facebook group.

No wonder whoever writes "Cubicle Casting Couch Coach" doesn't get a by-line...her (his?) advice is just plain incompetent.

Here is how it should be handled.

1) DO NOT SAY ANYTHING at the time. Write it down -- in blue pen in your ever-present BOUND diary. You know the one you jot something down in every day.

2) GET A TAPE RECORDER. Tape them the next time. In many states, only one party to a conversation needs to be informed the tape recorder is running for the recording to be admissible in court. In other states, even if it's inadmissible as evidence, there's nothing stopping you from exerting considerable influence on the case with recordings of sexual harassment.

Now, if you were to follow this stupid bimbo writing for Marie Claire's advice, THEY could get such evidence on YOU saying things like "it doesn't bother me" and making similarly sexist remarks about your female co-workers -- which would TOTALLY undermine any case you might want to make in the future. This is why you say NOTHING and remain NEUTRAL when giving them the rope to hang themselves.

3) Get another job lined up, and get a lawyer. Call your state or City bar association and ask for a referral in employment law. Better yet, review all of the cases in your municipality and find someone who has been successful in the same issue against the same employer recently. Do not retain counsel just because they will "take it on contingency" -- these are losers and ambulance chasers.

4) Apprise yourself of the company's policy and grievance procedures for sexual harassment, and follow them to the letter.

5) DO NOT EXPECT TO KEEP YOUR JOB. You are only following the grievance procedures in order to demonstrate to the courts that you exhausted the internal grievance procedures. Furthermore, should they violate their own written grievance procedures even in a minor procedural matter, it may be a matter of the company violating its own by-laws or articles of incorporation which, you might be interested to know, is a far stronger set of laws. Human rights mean *nothing* to the courts compared to corporate rights. In any case, you will want someone who is experienced with both corporate and employment law, preferably with the same institution. Some big employers have screwed this one up so many times that their loyal opposition knows what to expect from their in-house counsel. Basically, the in-house counsel of the Big Corporate Employer will advise management to Bend The Rules and Try All Sorts of Shit, because chances are you'll just give up. The beauty of this tactic on their part is that if you DO NOT GIVE UP, you will have them on the violation of many many more laws.

6) Save up two weeks vacation time, and give two weeks notice. GIVE NO REASON, written or verbal for your resignation. DO NOT TELL ANYONE where you are working next, or even IF you are working next. IT IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS, and the most important thing you have to do at this point is to stay employed.

7) Now, within hours of the deadlines, file the appropriate complaints with your local, state and federal officials. Do not discuss it with your girlfriends, do not write stupid letters to stupid women's magazines, do not complain to your mother. This is a legal issue.

Or even better:

"Dear Cubicle Coach: To fit in with "the guys", I laugh at their inappropriate jokes and let them make rude, sexual comments about me and my female co-workers. I also read Marie Claire magazine. Do you think these two things could be related?"

Wagadog, you should post this on e-how!

“DO NOT EXPECT TO KEEP YOUR JOB.�
See, that’s the problem. I wouldn’t be able to afford to keep moving from company to company.

dinogirl

As i said most aren't as brave as you - and they don't have money or stuff for lawyers - is there any way to fight it when you can't get a lawyer or fight a expensive fight?

Yup--no better way to enforce the popular "I'm soooooo not a feminist" trend by saying something like "That kind of stuff doesn't bother me, but...". As someone who has gotten stared at/approached inappropriately at work, it's totally infuriating to hear shit like that from other women who are reluctant to not "get in on the joke", and other shit like "Ah, he's an old guy, he doesn't realize he's blatantly staring at your tits" from your manager. Seriously.

As a guy, I can get away with saying, "Don't be a dick." But it is a more delicate dance for a woman stuck working with neanderthals like this.

I think DT's got a good suggestion with "creepy". It's a word with a negative connotation for guys and gals alike, and no macho bonus.

I think a good "Wow, way to be creepy!" would take the wind out of their sails without hurting your social standing at work.

Recognizing I'll probably get labeled as anti-feminist for this common, I would make a simple dissenting comment about avoiding prudishness. There is a big difference between sexual harassment in the workplace and sexual speech in the workplace.

I have had the pleasure of working in fields largely dominated by confident female employees. Over time I have been accepted into the workplace milieu and they have begun to speak with me more freely, including their descriptions about what they'd like to do to the mailboy with the sizable bulge in his khakis or the salacious details of the latest Danielle Steel or Anne Rice book they're reading. As a sex-positive feminist secure in my sexuality, I can smile along as I listen to their jokes and maturely disregard them as (perhaps misguided attempts at) office camaraderie.

This observation is not intended and should not be misconstrued to discount the presence of actual sexual harassment in the workplace at all, a repulsive evil which I myself have witnessed & intervened against on more than one occasion. However, I don't think modern feminists will find happy allies among the religious right and those who share the notion that any discussion of human sexuality & sexual desire is inherently offensive and oppressive.

The columnist seems to be alluding to this exact distinction, though she addresses it poorly. If the language doesn't bother you directly, a more pointed way of addressing it would have been to say something like "Guys, I'm sex-positive and comfortable with your office camaraderie, but more prudish office employees would take offense, so try to watch your tongues." Alternatively, if the content of their speech is particularly misogynistic, one can simply, firmly assert, "Guys, you should know better than to talk like that around hear," and if it persists than further action can be taken.

Also it seems warranted to comment that "sometimes" when a co-worker says they don't want to "cause trouble," it's not because they fear for their jobs, but they really don't care about it as much as perhaps others would like them to (emphasis on "sometimes").

I'm not impressed at all with wagadog's rather extreme recommended course of action. First of all, it's imprudent to presume that that level of animus is merited, let alone effective. Second, it is sadly perfectly characteristic of the egoistic hostility that is unjustly associated with feminism nowadays. In many cases, it is possible to establish boundaries with co-workers by being self-assertive. In my experience, when we've had religious employees uncomfortable with the free-flow of sexual banter in the work place, people tend to button their lips and be respectful in their presence. I think some of the posters here would be surprised just how effective pulling a co-worker aside privately and expressing discomfort with their workplace speech can be.

IMHO, the only individual who should absolutely abstain from sexual speech is the employer towards her employee, because of the potential for actual sexual harassment, committed perhaps even unintentionally.

...I'm not entirely sure how I would handle it, but I wouldn't make those guys feel comfortable with their choices , i.e. "Hey, its not that -I- have a problem with you guys being jerks..."

Have you read Dear Abby lately? She's not her mother. She's pretty vehemently pro-gay and pro-women's issues these days. She's just more polite about it than, say, Ask Amy, Carolyn Hax, or Dan Savage.

I'd also like to ditto DT's suggestion of pointing out "creepiness" to peers expressing sexist comments in the workplace. Again, very effective and gets to the heart of the disconnect without presuming a malicious misogynistic intent by the person. As someone much wiser than myself once said, "Never attribute to villainy that which can easily be explained by stupidity."

i think what this really calls for is a long, handwritten passive aggressive note in the break room about this sexual harassment. she should use "quotation marks" liberally and misplaced apostrophes, too. keep it in all lowercase letters and make sure your coworkers don't take it seriously. then go back to your cubicle and resent. resent, resent, resent. and then get fired.

I have had the pleasure of working in fields largely dominated by confident female employees. Over time I have been accepted into the workplace milieu and they have begun to speak with me more freely, including their descriptions about what they'd like to do to the mailboy with the sizable bulge in his khakis or the salacious details of the latest Danielle Steel or Anne Rice book they're reading. As a sex-positive feminist secure in my sexuality, I can smile along as I listen to their jokes and maturely disregard them as (perhaps misguided attempts at) office camaraderie.

News flash: OBJECTIFYING AND SEXUALLY HARASSING PEOPLE IS NOT OKAY. "Some women do it too!" is not an excuse. It is entirely inappropriate behavior for the workplace regardless of the sex of the person making the comments. That mailboy with the big package is a person. That secretary with the big knockers is also a person. They are both human beings, and in all likelihood don't have the option of quitting their job and giving up their paycheck just because some objectifying assholes think it's fun and harmless to treat them like meat. They have a right to come to work and do their job without having to sacrifice their dignity and humanity to do it. Sheesh.

I don't think, as Cheshire Katz states, that the problem is with offensive language in the example given. The men in the office clearly are sexualizing the secretary and this is clearly harassment. It's not confident, sex-positive talk. It's sexual jokes at someone else's expense.

Furthermore, sexual harassment is not limited to sexual speech. In fact, much harassment is only tangentially sexual. Sexual harassment is about power, not accidental mumblings of taboo speech. Despite popular misconceptions helped along by the media, most cases of sexual harassment are not about someone "offending" someone else who is a prude.

Sexual harassment interferes with one's ability to do their job. It's repeated (usually), unwanted behavior of a sexual nature and is not limited to boss-supervisee relations. And, by the way, being confident and "sex positive" doesn't make you immune to sexual harassment. You CAN be sexually harassed. Anyone can because it's not about the sex. It's about the harassment.

There's nothing wrong with wagadogs advice. The first two actions are simply data collection. If you have jumped to a conclusion and are wrong you won't get any supporting data - end of problem. Always cover your ass.

It seems to me that we are making the assumption that there is actually no sexual harrassment going on, but simple stupidity. Am I the only person here who has received extensive training EVERY YEAR about sexual harrassment? The reason for this training is to take the wind out of the "I didn't know there was anything wrong with it" sails. They know what they are doing.

It's also important to understand here that the person being harrassed is not the receptionist, but the UPPITY woman who dares to believe herself their equal.

Actually, Jane, both receptionists and equals get harrassed in the workplace (and elsewhere). No one is safe. And the point of saying something isn't because we don't think they know. It's to show that we won't put up with hearing it.

And the problem with wagadog's advice isn't the data collection. It's the assumption that everyone can afford to jump ship anytime anything like this happens, the assumption that no one should speak out against it except through legal forms, and the assumption that people need a lawyer. Not everything need be quite so drastic, and if people believed that was the only way to deal with sexual harrassment, those of us who can't afford to lose our jobs (and are in areas where finding a new one at the same pay is damned near impossible) would never report it.

wagadog – Isn’t it a basic necessity of a successful harassment lawsuit that the victim go on record as complaining to HR or management about said harassment? I would think that the company could not be held liable if not given reasonable notice to fix the problem first.

I've got to agree with Kimmy here. These guys continue to be assholes because they've only gotten positive reinforcement from their actions (high fives, or whatever). Trying any one of the pro-active things suggested already (my solution would be a super-sarcastic "Classy. And so work-appropriate. Keep up the good work, guys") would be a good intermediate step before securing a lawyer and looking for a new job.

The reason WHY NOT follow the ONLY recourse we have for eliminating Sexual harassment --
It's too expensive. And if you're in the position of still trying to establish yourself in a profession, you can't afford in other ways to do it.

This is why they continue to get away with it -- ECONOMIC INTIMIDATION. your HR department knows its managers and male employees can continue to do whatever the hell they damn well please, because they have the deep pockets and the lawyers on staff, and you don't.

Now, given these practical realities, do we just give up and "go along to get along"?

No. Carry out steps 1-3 regardless, rinse and repeat. Document, document, document, document -- and DO keep your CV up to date, DO be ready to go to the next step. You have a choice between wounding your enemy lightly or fatally -- just leaving, or going all the way. Anything in between, and it will be fatal to you.

There is no point at which you can call bullies on their behavior and not become a target yourself. Progressing to step 4 is the point of no return, which is why getting another job lined up before considering progressing to step 4 is so important.

However, when you start to document their behavior and their actual words, you will find that the worse and more persistent they act, the more effective evidence you will have, and the more succinct and accurate a story you will have for anyone who asks you the opinion of any of those men in the future. There is a perverse joy in this activity, because it takes that vaguely uncomfortable feeling you get when a bunch of stupid sexist assholes start making their stupid sexist "jokes", and makes it clearer and more objectively demonstrable that it's not YOUR FEELING that is the problem -- it is THEIR WORDS AND ACTIONS which are OFFENSIVE.

Instead of you accumulating frustrations and anxieties, the worse they behave--the better evidence and more egregious offenses you have on them. Let them have their puerile little frat-boy verbal circle-jerks. Give them enough rope. If they find themselves saying things that they would be embarrassed for their wives or daughters or bosses or grandmothers to hear about in the future...their tough luck.

When they deny having said these things in court, you'll have them on tape to get them on perjury as well.

The stronger a case you build and the better your documentation at the outset, the more likely it is to get to that point, and believe you me, I've seen companies fail and whole academic departments disbanded in the wake of cases that never got near a courtroom.

To complain, or not to complain -- THAT is the question. In male dominated environments -- engineering, physics, geophysics, software development, academics, construction, manufacturing -- you WILL be subjected to a GREAT DEAL of sexism and sexual harassment.

Complaints will ONLY garner reprisals, so obviously you SAY NOTHING and write down what they said. If it's a "good" environment, your stone silence where they expected assent at ridiculing another woman (they love pitting women against each other) will have put a stop to it. If they have any brains at all, they'll know what your little black diary is about, and it will stop without your having to complain -- they'll realize you're gathering evidence to build a case.

If you complain in a male dominated industry or profession, you WILL need a lawyer, so you might as well develop a working relationship with one NOW. If you complain in a male dominated industry or profession, you WILL need a great deal of job flexibility, so you might as well start saving your money and developing your next job prospect NOW. And if you work in a male dominated industry or profession, they WILL give you PLENTY to complain about, so develop the professional practice of keeping a diary NOW.

You will not be able to fight every battle. But you will be able to choose your battles the better prepared and the more flexible you are.

I've got to agree with Kimmy here. These guys continue to be assholes because they've only gotten positive reinforcement from their actions (high fives, or whatever). Trying any one of the pro-active things suggested already (my solution would be a super-sarcastic "Classy. And so work-appropriate. Keep up the good work, guys") would be a good intermediate step before securing a lawyer and looking for a new job.

Obviously the language in the example is inappropriate. It can be tricky, though, to deal with it.

The inherent problem is simple: People pay more attention to, and are more likely to listen to, others like them. If you present an opinion as a member of a totally divergent group, your words often end up in the 'mental round file.'

The question of "is this OK?" has already been answered: No, it's not ok. But the question of how to be most effective in stopping it is less obvious.

(How does this work in practice? Here's an abortion example. I think abortions should be freely available up to the moment of delivery. But I know this is a semi-radical view. If I'm talking with someone who is on the fence of prolife/prochoice, I generally choose not to present my belief, as they will often reject it--and in rejecting it, will also reject the prochoice movement entirely.) Another example is found on Alas, where folks debate whether actively supporting the Iraqi resistance is more, or less, likely to get us out of Iraq sooner.

Similarly, as a man who dislikes those comments, it can be a difficult choice of options. Feminist men can be in a bit of a quandary.

If we switch into full blown "feminist mode" then we often get one comment in--but frequently lose our ability to be as effective in the future. If we try for the "group members are more effective at changing the group than are outcasts" method then we are forced to act in a manner that's not really how we want, with the hope that it will prove most effective towards the larger goal.

For example, I have a client who makes some inappropriate comments. If I say too much to them, they'll just leave, and find someone who says nothing at all. So I'm trying to walk a fine line: I don't participate; I don't reciprocate; I don't encourage; and I throw in as many pregnant pauses, bewildered looks, etc as I think I can get away with and still keep him. Over time, it seems to be working.

Now, this advice in the article takes the "inside job" theory way too far. But I think working from the inside remains a valuable tactic.

I think that the advice offered by Kimmy and DT is best, because it's showing that while you are willing to joke around and be friendly with your co-workers, you're not willing to put up with sexist bullshit -- nor are you afraid to come out and say so. Doing it in a casual-but-firm way exudes confidence without sounding like an attack.

If they keep doing it even after this approach has been tried, then start documenting.

Anyone ever read "Walking Out on the Boys"? It's a first-person account by a female neurosurgeon who tried to fit in by joining in (or at least turning a blind eye too) the way her fellow surgeons treated nurses, waitresses, etc. Then when she had the temerity to suggest that one of her more sexist colleagues not be appointed chief of the department, she found out how little accepted she really was.
What's striking is that even at the end, she still doesn't want to rock the boat: Throughout, her attitude is that if she just closes her eyes and wishes really hard, maybe everything will get better.

Thanks to everyone who supported my response of "stop being creepy." I obsess over this, and it means a lot to me to hear so much support. I also second the use of "classy" as a response.

Still, that casual-but-firm, jokey-but-tough thing can be hard to pull of when you're busy actually doing your job. I've been in the position of being so dumbfounded by what I just heard/saw that I can't respond fast enough. And so I let it go.

I think I am going to use the stop being creepy thing at my office, right...about...now.

Hey, I was wondering about something that happened to me at work the other day. I was sitting in the breakroom with a young coworker who happens to be deaf. He communicates through sign and reads lips, speaking very few words out loud.
Someone mentioned a man hosting the View (the only channel we get in our lounge), and the coworker who is deaf, calmly remarked, "fag."
Now, normally, I would have reminded him that hate speech is not allowed at work, and that I found the comment inappropriate. But it occured to me that he did not have the privilege of learning English the same way I did, and may not be aware of how nasty that word is. So, I just let it slide.
Should I have set him straight?

The previous manager of our store got fired for sexually harassing one of the sales associates (yay for having females in upper-management!). Men need to control themselves better, and understand that women's bodies are not up for grabs.

That didn't come out as good as I thought it would. What I meant was, yay for having females in upper management who wouldn't tolerate the bad behavior of the store manager (the one who got fired for sexually harassing the sales associate)