I hope Imus gets back on air. The market should decide whether he stays or goes, not the PC police! No one has to listen if they don't want to.

Re: the "multitasking" article: puke, puke puke. It deserves a post of its own. One of the women told him "That’s an absolutely insulting question" in response to whether women who start businesses might neglect their families -- but they were ALL insulting questions! "My second question was whether women should try to imitate men’s tough management style." The writer concludes, of course, that "women who emulate the tough-guy management style can be nightmares," and gets a woman to use the dreaded "catty" epithet.

In case you didn't realize Nicole, the market did decide: The market of women and Black people who decided not to tolerate his racist and sexist bullshit.

Wow, so many interesting articles!

*the Promise Keepers scare the hell out of me. My dad was one of the founders of the group in his local church. I thought it was weird, but my mom told me it was good for him so I went along with it. Then I read one of the books where it told men who had working wives to apologize to their wives for forcing them to take on "the man's role" and it was time for the man to take back his job. That part infuriated me so much! And my dad was obviously getting more authoritarian at home...ironically, it was Promise Keepers and the personality change it inspired in my dad that almost led to my parents getting a divorce. God I hope he doesn't start back up, right when he and I are finally repairing our relationship...

*As much as I loved Live Free or Die Hard as an action movie, the woman's character (and she did have a name. "My." That's probably not how it was spelled, but it's what it sounded like. No subtext there!) bothered the hell out of me. OF COURSE she was a martial arts genius - aren't all asian women? And the racist, sexist diatribes that McClane went off on made him instantly less likable. But the explosions were good.

And I want to voice some thoughts in conjunction with the abortion-in-movies article, but I can't without potentially spoiling a major book that was just released. I think I'll do some writing in my own blog and link it in the self-promotion post if anyone's interested, lol.

I just remembered one more interesting link:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1644655,00.html

"...India may have aired Sex and the City on TV and celebrated Cosmo girls on the newsstand, but it remains a distinctly unfriendly place for anyone who wants to live alone, particularly a woman. Single women making their way in the world are frowned upon in India's traditionally conservative society, and landlords often refuse to rent to them..."

"Local small businesses are adopting the "babe chain" approach to selling their services."

BTW, that link pointed to the wrong article.

Meanwhile, from the article on allowing transsexual kids to delay puberty:

"...Some doctors say kids need to experience puberty to truly know if they're misplaced in their bodies, and warn that the long-term side effects of diverting nature's route are still unknown. A few doctors believe medicine should never intervene to change a person's body to match gender identity, no matter the age — what one transwoman doctor dubbed the 'you should be what God made you regardless of how miserable you are' camp. Paul McHugh, the psychiatrist who spearheaded the closure of the sexual reassignment clinic at Johns Hopkins Hospital in the 1970s, is an appointee to the President's Council on Bioethics. He calls the Lupron treatment 'a modern form of child abuse.'..."

I wonder how many of these idiots, if they could get away with it, would arrange for 12-year-old boys in XX-chromosome bodies to get pregnant instead of just getting periods?

http://www.truthout.org/issues_05/111405WB.shtml

"...Mahboubeh was nine when her father, a long-distance lorry driver, caught her in a clinch with one of her girlfriends. He didn't say anything but was convinced that his daughter was turning into a homosexual. In 1986, to 'awaken' Mahboubeh's femininity, her parents forcibly married her to a 30-year-old cousin. She was only 12 but, on the eve of her wedding, a state doctor confirmed that she was an 'adult woman' by establishing that she had breasts and was menstruating. After being raped, she ran away..."

"In case you didn't realize Nicole, the market did decide: The market of women and Black people who decided not to tolerate his racist and sexist bullshit."

Uh..no. If the market decided he would've been taken off for low ratings. If the people truly don't want to hear him he will get taken off the air for low ratings. The listeners never got a chance to speak thanks to Al Sharpton and his lynch mob of PC hypocrites. If the market of black people and women don't want to hear what he has to say they don't have to listen.

"Babe chain" link is fixed now. Thanks, moriath.

"I hope Imus gets back on air. The market should decide whether he stays or goes, not the PC police! No one has to listen if they don't want to."

Agreed. How many women or black people listened to his show in the first place? Maybe I'm on the fringe here, but if someone is saying something I don't like, instead of trying to get that person fired, I just don't listen to them.

I'm not gonna argue with you, Nicole because:

IMUS IS GONE! HURRAY! HURRAY! IMUS IS GONE! HURRAY!

Oh, and since you love bashing Sharpton so much:

"Sharpton Wouldn't Object to an Imus Return"

Ah well. Rev. Al never spoke for me, anyway.

White guys and their sycophants = the market.
Everyone else = PC Police.

Thanks for clearing that up. Do we get cute shiny badges with rainbow motifs?

after reading the first 2 links, I have decided I will be throwing up the rest of the day.
Cheers, ladies (and everyone else)

Hey! I'm from Ghana! (altho I haven't been back since the age of 7) but I'm glad to see the women in my mother country are standing up for their rights (even when chiefs tell them to shut up)!

The abortion in movies article was interesting; it bothers me as well that its so rare in the media. I enjoyed Waitress, but it was realllllly dumb that she didn't even consider abortion, considering she was trapped in a bad relationship.

Jolie as the a black comic books characer- wasn't she also just in a movie as Pearl's wife, who is also a black woman? Though... I thought Jolie was a quarter black. I might have made that up, though, or maybe I am confusing her with Mariah Carey.

Re: Trans kids delaying puberty- fascinating, but I have no idea what to feel about that, because it doesn't seem healthy, on the other hand, childhood can be hellish for anyone different.

"I'm not gonna argue with you, Nicole because:

IMUS IS GONE! HURRAY! HURRAY! IMUS IS GONE! HURRAY!
"

It's kind of sickening to see someone delight in the suppression of opposing viewpoints. Maybe I should try to get Air America taken off the air. Oh yea, no one listens to them anyway! I guess only hosts with large followings don't have the right to speak their opinions or offend anyone.

"Maybe I should try to get Air America taken off the air. Oh yea, no one listens to them anyway! I guess only hosts with large followings don't have the right to speak their opinions or offend anyone."

Didn't Imus have a small following too?

I heard that's why the uproar over his insulting the Rutgers womens basketball team didn't start right after he spoke his opinions on the radio but started after someone else mentioned it on the web

I'd totally wear a PC Police badge. Although, that probably would greatly increase the instance of people saying horrible things to me like "reverse racism" and "race baiting." *Shudder*

Don't you have somewhere else to troll, Nicole? Surely you could find a group of entirely black women to insult? Just because there are some other white people here doesn't mean that you're going to find any sympathy from us.

Okay. Done with the troll. Cross my heart.

Thanks for including the link to my blog, Ann! First Samhita, now you. I feel so popular this week!

"I hope Imus gets back on air. The market should decide whether he stays or goes, not the PC police! No one has to listen if they don't want to."

OK, so you don't like political correctness...

"Don't you have somewhere else to troll, Nicole?"

Hold on a secnd. You called her "Nicole" and suggested that she do something.

Since she doesn't like political correctness, and calling someone by the name she uses for herself is more politically correct than calling her a fucking cunt, then maybe you should have called her a fucking cunt in order to increase the odds of her following your suggestion instead of ignoring you?

"Since she doesn't like political correctness, and calling someone by the name she uses for herself is more politically correct than calling her a fucking cunt, then maybe you should have called her a fucking cunt in order to increase the odds of her following your suggestion instead of ignoring you?"

That is the difference between sensible individuals and PC nut jobs. I don't care if anyone calls me a cunt. That is your opinion, and you have a right to it, although I think it applies more to other members here. Stating false information is different, but everyone has a right to state their opinion no matter who it offends. Calling me a troll is just a sign you have no better response. Just because I don't agree with a lot of the people here doesn't make me a troll. Debate is fun. I could go to a libertarian message board, but why would I want to chat with everyone I agree with? That would be boring!

...and Don Imus had a much larger following than anyone on Air America. He was on the air for decades.

his lynch mob of PC hypocrites.

Did you just compare feminist and anti-racist groups who applied organized social and economic pressure to punish an unreconstructed bigot to groups of white racist terrorists who made torture and murder into a public, family outing?

Yeah, clearly your assessments of how to hand racism and misogyny are worth paying attention to.

I resent the term "politically correct" I would rather it be called, "civilized human", because those who spout hate in any form, whether it is against women, racist, homophobic, etc, are not civilized humans.

Regarding the "babe chain" article.

What happens when the weather gets cold? Do these women qualify for unemployment checks?

Tiger Time Lawn Care seems like a great company to ensure that women continue making 75 cents for every dollar their pimps make, oops, I mean bosses.

Jolie as the a black comic books characer- wasn't she also just in a movie as Pearl's wife, who is also a black woman? Though... I thought Jolie was a quarter black. I might have made that up, though, or maybe I am confusing her with Mariah Carey.

You're thinking of Mariah, who's actually half-Black like Marian Pearl.

As for Angelina, wasn't there a quote where she said that her Marian Pearl role wasn't an example of how limited roles were for Black women? I wonder how she explains this one??

And pass me a PC badge! =D

Fave quote on PC: “PC? Oh yes, I am always trying to become MORE Polite and Courteous!�

Yeah, clearly your assessments of how to hand racism and misogyny are worth paying attention to.
LoL, seriously, EG. Who gave Phyllis Schlaffly our web address? It's like Nicole lifted every opinion she's ever had from Conservapedia and Ayn Rand. I actually like Ayn's writing, but 85% of her fans have the intellectual development of an emotionally stunted 12 year old boy raised by right-wing lunatics. I guess the Miss Vapid USA pageant got done early.
I'm a Rutgers alumnus and I can't believe what Imus said. It's not like Rutgers has a lot going for it, sportswise. So the one time we do really well, he has to be a total douche. And, writing letters and complaining? Uhm, that is the market responding.

I guess radical feminists don't understand the concept of defending an individual's right to say what they want while disagreeing with it. Of course his statement was offensive. That doesn't mean he should be silenced. If people are offended they don't have listen to him. If no one wants to hear him he will be silenced. I guess this concept might be pretty hard to understand for people who support forcing stations to hire people of certain viewpoint no matter how poor their ratings are. The free market scares ya.

I'm so glad that there seems to be growing support for trans kids.

However, the part of the article that said children wouldn't know for sure if they were trans until they went through puberty made no sense to me! I'm not trans, but I remember puberty as hellish and horrifying. I certainly didn't feel like "yay I'm a woman now!" I felt like my body was betraying me and I was constantly at war with it. While my reaction may have been extreme, I don't think it's abnormal for kids to feel really uncomfortable with their changing bodies during puberty. So how exactly is this going to help a trans teen? By analyzing the degree to which puberty seems foreign and awkward???

*of course, the article was about delaying puberty, I'm commenting on the dissenting opinion they quoted that puberty was necessary to develop gender identity.

Nicole, Imus absolutely has the right to say whatever he wants. Only difference is that now, nobody's paying to hear it. His sponsors decided that they care more about selling their products to black people and women and people with brains then they care about supporting his Constitutional right to offend their customer base. That's the market for you. Certainly you can't expect businesses to pay people to drive their clientele away! Businesses have the right to make money, don't they, Ms. Libertarian?

Don Imus can go stand on an overturned cardboard box on the streetcorner and yell about nappyheaded hos til the cows come home. He can get his own blog. He can pass out pamphlets in the subway station. But GM and Proctor & Gamble and GlaxoSmithKlein ain't paying him to do it anymore.

I'm sure that within a year, Imus will be on Sirius, XM, or internet radio. There's definitely a market for cranky, priviliged, white pillocks that are absolutely threatened by any change in society that doesn't directly benefit them. Nicole is proof of it.
BtW, does anyone else miss Itazura et. al.? He was so much more amusing than Nicole.

Oh, & yes, absolutely, radical feminists are damn terrified of the free market. We're also scared that the sun won't come back after it goes away at night, that we'll walk off the end of the earth, that comets mean that King George will die, and that when men masturbate they kill the homunculus living in their sperm.
Nicole, quick hint before you call people radical feminists--READ A BOOK ABOUT FEMINISM. Most of the people here tend to be moderate. I admit I'm a radical feminist b/c I'm an anarchist and integrate that in with my feminism. But seriously, read something NOT by Camille Paglia (The Queen of Missing the Point) or Kate Roiphe.

For someone who claims to be a libertarian, you don't know shit about how the market works, Nicole.

Though... considering how ignorant most self-described libertarians are, I guess it makes sense.

Though... considering how ignorant most self-described libertarians are, I guess it makes sense.
*Cracks up* Too true. I encountered a great deal of libertarians in college. They were working with the college rethuglicans to eliminate the women's studies, African American studies, and Hispanic stuidies departments at my school (Rutgers-Newark). I have never met a libertarian that wasn't a smug, priviliged ass that never had to work for anything and had everything provided by their wingnut parents. It's so easy to say "Let the market control things" when you have everything and have never seen true poverty. Let them come to where my family has roots--West Virginia and southeast Pennsylvannia. I'm only two generations out of the mines and one generation out of the factories. If you live a life like that, you'll see how well the corporations take care of you.
My favorite libertarian stunt is when this one famous libertarian, I can't remember his name but he was also a gun nut, went to a violence stricken part of NYC & started handing out toy guns & encouraging kids to play with guns. He wasn't a total waste of skin.

I am amazed that the vast majority of people who wanted Don Imus taken off the air and who still want him kept off of the air base their opinions of him from one dumb throwaway comment.

How many of those people actually listened in to his show? I was not a daily listener of his show, but I can appreciate how Don Imus can poke fun at stupid invented categories that humans have used to separate each other.

If you really don't like Don Imus, I have a solution that will please you and everyone involved. If you don't like what he has to say, don't tune in to his show. This issue being blown out of proportion only shows how racist America still manages to be.

/commence crucifixion for presenting a dissenting viewpoint

/commence crucifixion for presenting a dissenting viewpoint
*Commence rolling eyes*

Imus wasn't fired being of the market. The market didn't have time to speak. He was fired because of pressure groups with double standards. Where were they when Al Sharpton made anti-Mormon remarks?

Moxie,
Are you still living in the 1930s because in the time I live people have it pretty good. As someone who's about to graduate from college, I know all the opportunities this country offers. Most people living on assistance dropped out of high school and/or experienced a teen birth(both preventable). I wasn't born rich, but I know I can do whatever I want. I'm not oppressed. It's all a matter of hard work and good choices.

wow ok so i'm not biting with that last paragraph in nicole's most recent comment, although oh is there much to say about it.

what i will bite just enough into to respond is the concept of "if you don't like it, just don't listen."
i GET that, a little. like i don't like everybody loves raymond, for instance, but its existence on TV doesn't make me furious. dudes spewing hatespeak, even if it's within other talk that's inoffensive, yields a reaction. thus, folks spoke up that comments of the sort imus made. and thus the sponsors withdrew their sponsorship.

let's say imus said what he said about your sister, or the basketball team on which you were a player. you don't have to listen, sure, but you still might hear it. and silently changing the channel just somehow isn't that satisfying.

the other side of free speech is that we can speak up when what other people are saying is not ok with us.

Are you still living in the 1930s because in the time I live people have it pretty good.
Actually, the stuff I'm talking about happened to my family through the seventies and is still going on in this country. Actually, due to government and corporate crackdowns on unions, mining conditions are returning to what they were in the early 20th century. Hence, the recent spate of mine tragedies. Incidentally, the corporations that owned those mines were major contributors to rethug causes. It may not affect your privileged self, but it affects people in this country who are no less important than you.
You seem supremely naive and sheltered if you truly believe that everything is up to hard work and good choices. True, they have an effect but in our country, all people are equal but some are more equal than others.
In good news, Nicole, I've found a husband for you. His name is Horatio Alger.
And I strongly suggest that you read a book about welfare. I've studied with one of the preeminent scholars of feminism and government assistance and your "facts" are just talking points from Faux News. I recomend The Constraint of Race: Lgacies of White Skin Privilege in America by Linda Faye Williams & Dividing Citizens: Gender and Federalism in New Deal public Policy by Suzanne Mettler. Gender and American Politics, specifically the section on the effects of gender on public policy, and Gender, Families, and State, by Jyl Josephson. I also recomend the articles, "The Intersectionality of Domestic Violence and Welfare in the Lives of Poor Women" and "Promoting Freedom From Poverty: Political Mobilization and the Role of the Kensington Welfare Rights Union," also by Jyl Josephson.
BtW, my mum was on welfare after she left my dad. A good deal of women who are on welfare are divorcees, b/c, contrary to popular belief, women tend to suffer economically during divorces.

Nicole, how much time have you spent with people who live in true poverty? From your statements, I assume it is little to none. Quite honestly, the reasons people live in poverty are complex and as long as privileged people like yourself hold the attitude that they are all just lazy or made poor choices, things aren't likely to improve. Since you are so educated, why not use your superior intelect and pick up a book like Jonathan Kozol's "Shame of the Nation" or Ruby Payne's "A Framework for Understanding Poverty". You might just learn something.

"BtW, my mum was on welfare after she left my dad. A good deal of women who are on welfare are divorcees, b/c, contrary to popular belief, women tend to suffer economically during divorces."

That is true. There are some circumstances where individuals are not responsible for their situation(widows, divorced mothers, the terminally ill, wounded soldiers, the elderly). However, those who recieve government benefits are often those who dug their own hole(teen "mothers", substance abusers, former prisoners). Before I'd ever support welfare it would have to stop supporting those who are in their situation because of their own choices. Liberals like to bait and switch. They paint welfare as helping those who are in their situation because of circumstances beyond their control, and then it turns out 80% of women who get pregnant as teenagers end up living on tax dollars. I don't want to fund the irresponsible choices of others.

"Nicole, how much time have you spent with people who live in true poverty? From your statements, I assume it is little to none. Quite honestly, the reasons people live in poverty are complex and as long as privileged people like yourself hold the attitude that they are all just lazy or made poor choices, things aren't likely to improve. Since you are so educated, why not use your superior intelect and pick up a book like Jonathan Kozol's "Shame of the Nation" or Ruby Payne's "A Framework for Understanding Poverty". You might just learn something. "

My main experiences with people in poverty have been people at high school and work. Many have had trouble with the law and/or abuse drugs. I know many girls who have gotten pregnant before age 20, and are now living on welfare despite having access to abortion and adoption services. It's the same story. The girl gets pregnant at 16, has several more, and "raises" a new generation of welfare abusers. It's not the tax payers job to get these people out of poverty. They got themselves in it, and their choices are what is keeping them in it.

My main experiences with people in poverty have been people at high school and work.
Anecdotal experience, while compelling, doesn't really count. It's like you've ingested every word that Ronald Reagan said about welfare queens. Your analysis is so simplistic, it's almost sad. "Bad people do drugs and are poor, so they deserve it." Ooook, so why did they do drugs? Why do people have unprotected sex? Gee, could it be b/c they're being fed info that the pill and condoms don't work? Or could it be b/c they live in a state where you have to travel hundreds of miles for an abortion? If you're on the northeast & west coast, you're pretty covered if you want an abortion, but if you live in a state like Montana, you may have to travel to the one county that has an abortion provider, then wait the 24-72 hour waiting period, etc. etc.
Anyway, that's besides the point. There are so many intersecting causes of poverty that you utterly ignore: race, geographic location, gender, mental illness, physical health, education, and even religion. I highly suggest that you do more reading on the subject before coming here and making sweeping generalizations.

Well, and also, look at how many rich people do drugs. The difference is, of course, that when rich people get caught, they go off for treatment and everyone nods their heads sympathetically.

Let's not forget those classics about the history and contemporary state of welfare in this country: Regulating the Lives of Women by the esteemed Mimi Abramovitz and In the Shadow of the Poorhouse by Michael Katz.

I have no idea where Nicole lives or where she grew up. But I grew up passing homeless people on the street every damn day of my life, and I still do. And there is nothing anybody could do, no choices anybody could make, that would make sleeping on the streets a fitting punishment. How nice for her that she apparently lives in Mayberry.

I notice that the boys who participated in the activity which resulted in the "girl gets [magically] pregnant at sixteen" recieve non of Nicole's ire. What social class is Nicole? Exactly the same class as her parents, because class is inherited. You are born into a class; you don't "get yourself into it."

And, dude--her experience with poor people was in high school? High school? Is there anybody in the world who doesn't make lousy choices while a teenager?

What a bizarre experience from which to generalize. I'll generalize from my own high school experience now. Let's see...women wear too much make-up and look like garish clowns--I saw it all the time in high school! Couples make out in stairwells--I saw it constantly in high school!

If Nicole ever did actual research into welfare, she would know that the notion that generations live on welfare for years and years at a time is a complete right-wing myth. The average number of kids in a family on welfare is two; the average period spent on welfare is under two years. Those stats were current ten years ago. I don't know what they are today, but I doubt they've changed that radically.

Nicole,

I would describe myself as a defender of capitalism ("free market" is redundant, as only true markets are "free"). I see nothing inconsistent with capitalism and the Imus firing. There really is no free speech issue here whatsoever.

Sponsors have every right to deny sponsorship to programs inconsistent with their values. That is how markets work. Boycotts (and shareholder actions) are one of the best means of private regulation of corporate behavior and have a long tradition. The fact that no government action was involved is telling. From what I read, private groups were involved in pressuring the network and the sponsors to have Imus fired.

You might have an issue if the governmnent was trying to suppress or regulate Imus' views, even comments as repugnant as the one that caused his firing, but such was not the case.

This may be a strange forum to defend capitalism, but Nicole, stick to something you know. Also, just a word of advice, never get involved in the "social class" arguments. Looks like from the recent comments, you've been "fished in." You will never win such arguments, because there is no way to win. Watch how quickly the issue switches from Imus to your socio-economic background.

"It's all a matter of hard work and good choices."

Come back in 5 years, Nicole, and give us a report.

Am I the only one on here that finds self-identified feminists calling other women "bitch" and "cunt" just as offensive as when it's done by your average guy on the street?

I can see reclaiming it as a positive term. However, if you're using as an insult, you're not really reclaiming it. I really question your feminist views if you're using being an assertive woman or a vagina as an insult.

Did someone do that, Roni?

Shorter Nicole: Only those with money should be allowed to continue their pregnancies and raise their own children. Poor people better have abortions or give their children away in order to have the same rights as the rest of us.

"The girl gets pregnant at 16, has several more, and "raises" a new generation of welfare abusers. It's not the tax payers job to get these people out of poverty. They got themselves in it, and their choices are what is keeping them in it."

But what about the kids who are being raised in it? What choices did they make that got them into their situation?

Of course, given your previous posts, I guess you would have no problem simply leaving those childeren out in the cold in order to punish the parents for their "poor choices".

I liked how she whipped out the scare quotes in relation to teen mothers, as if the only women fit to wear the mantle vacuum in pearls and pop today's batch of chocolate chip cookies into the oven precisely at 2:30 every afternoon so junior will come home to a warm, after school snack.

I also liked how she's falling back on her experiences in high school. So, to do the same, I can say that in my high school, teen pregnancy was spread across the spectrum of classes. The nearest abortion provider was a four hour dash (across the Mexican border in some cases), and cost far too much. The pharmacist refused to dispense birth control to unmarried women, and condoms were sold behind the counter in all of the retail outlets in our little mountain town.

My point is, in a class of 120 kids, we had 20 kids by the time we graduated, and another six on the way. Only one girl dropped out, and she was from the upper class, interestingly enough.
One girl was sent away to have her baby in secret and shame. The rest took advantage of our school's first-in-the-state on-site daycare. If you placed your child in there, you were required (along with the baby's father -- if he was still a student) to take parenting classes and spend a couple of hours a day working in the center. Tutoring was available after school. A counselor was hired dedicated solely to getting these girls on their feet.

Thanks to MySpace and my mother, I know that most of the women who gave birth at a younger age are doing well. They're contributing members of society, most hold college degrees (true, not from Ivy institutions, which in Nicole's eyes probably render them worthless) and they're happy.

So there you have it. My rebuttal using anecdotal evidence about poverty at the high school level.

Thank you, thank you.

Yeah “hard work and good choices� right. I read recently in Newsweek that 75% of economic inequalities are passed on from one generation to the next. Hard work and good choices my ass. And as far as hard work, are you saying people working minimum wage jobs 12 hours a day 7 days a week just need to work *harder*?

Regarding the article linked to as "on not identifying as trans":

Where in that article does it say that Schofield does not identify as trans? At one point Schofield is quoted as saying, "It should not be possible for me to be a radical feminist debutante transman, but I am." He clearly identifies as trans and the article is about his performance, which deals with the complexities of identity politics.

Is the link is broken and maybe redirecting to the wrong place?

"It's kind of sickening to see someone delight in the suppression of opposing viewpoints."

"Opposing viewpoints"? Is that the "politically correct" terminology? Forgive me for being old-fashioned, but I prefer the old term--"racism."

I thought Libertarians are all about free market capitalism? Imus had a job because he drew in listeners, who would also hear the ads played during his show, which made money for the station he worked at. After his racist and sexist comment, people called the station and said they wouldn't be listening anymore. So Imus got canned for costing the station listeners and therefore, income.
The system works!

"I guess radical feminists don't understand the concept of defending an individual's right to say what they want while disagreeing with it."

If anyone were suggesting Imus be thrown in jail for what he said, I guess you'd be right. Too bad no one has. Do you understand what "free speech" actually means? Do you even know the source of the quote you're paraphrasing? Personally, I'm all for not giving bigots a forum in which to spout their hatred. They have a right to do so if they want to, but they don't have a right to be paid for doing it.

Of course his statement was offensive. That doesn't mean he should be silenced. If people are offended they don't have listen to him. If no one wants to hear him he will be silenced.

Sweetheart, this is exactly what happened! People called in and said, we don't want to listen to him anymore (because he's a racist fuckhead). The station responded by sacking him. He wasn't dragged off in the middle of the night for speaking his mind. He was fired for failing to perform his job's basic function: To attract listeners.
He drove listeners away. Ergo, he was fired.

"Imus wasn't fired being of the market. The market didn't have time to speak. He was fired because of pressure groups with double standards. Where were they when Al Sharpton made anti-Mormon remarks?"

Does Al Sharpton have corporate sponsors? If he does, and what he says offends you, I'd suggest you call them and tell them you won't be purchasing any of their products as long as they're sponsoring him. If enough people feel the same, I bet you could get his ass fired, too!

"As someone who's about to graduate from college, I know all the opportunities this country offers. It's all a matter of hard work and good choices."

Oh, the bootstrap argument! That is just so cute. We can all have what we want if we just put our noses to the grindstone, right?
Your naivete is just precious.

I agree with Grace. Come back when you grown up, Nicole, or at least figured out that "the world you live in" isn't the same world everyone else lives in. Try poking your head out the window of that ivory tower sometime--you might actually learn something.

Vervain, as usual, you rock.
We can all have what we want if we just put our noses to the grindstone, right? Until the grindstone lops off your nose.

As someone who's about to graduate from college, I know all the opportunities this country offers.

This is my favorite part, I think. "I'm 22 and know everything!" Well, if you're about to graduate from college, I guess you must know everything. Certainly none of us here have ever graduated from college or learned about life in any other way. All hail.

It's all a matter of hard work and good choices.

You misunderstand how capitalism works. Capitalism depends on there being a large population with no choice but to work the lousy jobs with no futures available. Capitalism depends on a pyramid-like structure, with very limited means of advancement, in order to make sure there is a mass of people who must accede to the plans of the bourgeoisie. Go read a book.

"But what about the kids who are being raised in it? What choices did they make that got them into their situation?"

And don't forget just how lucrative it is to live on welfare. I mean come on, you can buy yourself a new car with that kind of dough, eat healthy food, pay for child care, take care of all of your bills and live in a an awesome house with a housekeeper!

Nicole, I highly suggest that you read the book "Flat Broke With Children". It is an in depth examination into welfare and "welfare reform". It is a great book and you could learn quite a bit from it.

Instead of just curling your lip in disgust of those on welfare or teenage mothers, why don't you try to educate yourself on how they ended up in their situations?

He who puts his nose to the grindstone is a bloody fool.

;)

During my childhood, there were a number of years where I lived in poverty. I ate a steady diet of frozen foods: chicken nuggets, fries, tater tots, TV dinners, generic macaroni and cheese, and pot pies. All of my clothes came from rummage sales. There was a time when only about two or three rooms of the house were livable. I slept in the den on the upper bunk with my sister on the lower bunk. My parents slept in the dining room. My dad worked two jobs so that we could barely pay all the bills. I could go on but I think I made my point.

That being said, do I have permission to talk about class issues and poverty?

"There are so many intersecting causes of poverty that you utterly ignore: race, geographic location, gender, mental illness, physical health, education, and even religion."

Some of that I can agree with. But, I need some explaining for some other parts of that statement. How does race or gender cause poverty? Is it just that you and I believe very differently about America's level of racism and sexism?

The feminization of poverty is a pretty well-documented phenomenon, Dave. It has to do with many things. Here are a few examples: stay-at-home wives who are divorced by their husbands, and find that ten years off the job market means that nobody will hire them or that the only jobs they're qualified for are very low-paying (alimony is pretty much a myth, practically--for one thing, to get it enforced you more or less have to be able to go to court, which, if you don't have the money, you can't). There is, of course, the income gap between men and women. And the fact that single women are far more likely to be supporting children than are single men. There's also the way domestic violence plays into all these dynamics, isolating women, meaning that it's not uncommon for a woman to have to pick up and leave everything.

As to race, again, there are many factors in play. One is that due to the history of extreme racism in this country, black people are less likely to have been able to build up the kind of wealth that can be passed down generations and used as a comfortable basis from which to earn more. Black people also tend to be the first fired/laid off during any economic downturn, and the last hired back again (racism). Race and class are deeply intertwined in this country.

You can read more about this in the Abramavitz and Katz books I mentioned above, and also in the work of Frances Fox Piven.

Dave, EG pretty much said it.

Re: the feminization of poverty, I would add that women are more often steered towards pink-collar jobs that pay less than more "masculine" jobs. Many job training centers for poor people steer women to things like cosmetology and secretarial work instead of carpentry or electrician work, which pays considerably more than the feminine jobs.

Oh, good point, Moxie. Yes, it's not just that those jobs are higher-paying, either--it's that they're unionized. The jobs that poor women tend to get steered into are not.

Cara:

Yes, ironically enough when Mina suggested to you that it would be in better keeping to call Nicole a "fucking cunt" instead of "Nicole". Interestingly enough, no one said a word about it.

This has happened before and I'm sure it'll happen again. Throwing around insults like bitch, whore slut and cunt is not uncommon in the comments, and I'm surprised more people don't have a problem with it. I, for one, find it offensive.

Hey awesome is knocking on teen parents, how easy and not cow-like to be Judgey McJagoff-pants...i especially liked the scare quotes around the word "mother", because, you know, all of us who were teen parents just toss our kids out in the traffic to play everyday and let them eat random things they across, instead of being aware and capable... way to totally let your priviledge show, Nicole

I don't think it's abnormal for kids to feel really uncomfortable with their changing bodies during puberty. So how exactly is this going to help a trans teen? By analyzing the degree to which puberty seems foreign and awkward???

It's a qualitative difference. Trans kids and teens don't go through the standard "ugh, my face looks like a biological warfare experiment, my voice is absurd, etc. etc. etc." It's not just awkward and uncomfortable; it's actively traumatic. Transkids have generally known since early childhood that their bodies and brains do not match, and seeing their bodies actively develop in a direction they KNOW is wrong is enough to seriously reconsider the notion of life as a value in itself.

Roni, I'm not trying to play semantics with you but here's the whole Mina quote:
Since she doesn't like political correctness, and calling someone by the name she uses for herself is more politically correct than calling her a fucking cunt, then maybe you should have called her a fucking cunt in order to increase the odds of her following your suggestion instead of ignoring you?
I'm pretty sure that Mina was being sarcastic or hyperbolic. Mina's posted here for awhile, I seriously doubt she would in all serious to tell someone/call someone a fucking cunt.
Might want to have all your facts before you accuse someone.

Exactly, Moxie Hart. ;)

"Re: the feminization of poverty, I would add that women are more often steered towards pink-collar jobs that pay less than more 'masculine' jobs. Many job training centers for poor people steer women to things like cosmetology and secretarial work instead of carpentry or electrician work, which pays considerably more than the feminine jobs."

Maybe another part of the blue collar/pink collar gender gap is young women and their families aiming at white-collar glass ceilings instead of blue-collar ones?

For example, sure some parents tell their daughters "don't be a carpenter, hairdressing is more feminine!" Meanwhile, some other parents tell their daughters "don't be a carpenter, surgery is more impressive!" How many parents are left who do encourage daughters to dream of carpentry?

Meanwhile, some other parents tell their daughters "don't be a carpenter, surgery is more impressive!"

I suspect that for the daughters and sons of upper middle-class families, carpentry isn't even on the radar, any more than is plumbing--buy which I mean, nobody's saying "don't be a carpenter," because it doesn't even come up. It's not in their social context.

"I suspect that for the daughters and sons of upper middle-class families, carpentry isn't even on the radar, any more than is plumbing--buy which I mean, nobody's saying 'don't be a carpenter,' because it doesn't even come up. It's not in their social context."

Good point. Meanwhile, what about those parents who get low incomes themselves *and* push their kids to study all the time in order to get into Ivies then med school or law school?

How many parents are left who do encourage daughters to dream of carpentry?
I tell you, I wish someone had something like that to me. I'm a college grad & I'm having a hella hard time finding a job. It doesn't help that I live on the uber competitive/expensive NY/NJ area. By now, I could be through with an apprenticeship in sheet metal drafting or electricianing & then, when I was financially secure, go to college.
Some people who go to college think they're so superior to everyone else. Honestly, going to college in America doesn't necessarily make you smart. It means you have money to pay for it and time to not have to work full time.

“By now, I could be through with an apprenticeship in sheet metal drafting or electricianing�… The problem with those kinds of jobs is that most of your colleagues are going to be sexist macho men who look down on you and try to make life impossible for you, because, you know, “It’s not a woman’s job�. Or maybe I have been too much influenced by that North Country movie.

The problem with those kinds of jobs is that most of your colleagues are going to be sexist macho men who look down on you and try to make life impossible for you, because, you know, “It’s not a woman’s job�. Or maybe I have been too much influenced by that North Country movie.
There prolly is some truth to that. I'dbe willing to deal witht hat because honestly, I'm in a very precarious economic position. He has a house and he's buying land to build his dream hosue and he's only 4 years older than me. I'm barely scraping by in an apartment in a dangerous city. This is what a college degree got me?

I thought Libertarians are all about free market capitalism?

People in the US who call themselves libertarians are all about these things. It's actually a complete perversion of the term, which anywhere else refers to anarchism — breaking down both state and private concentrations of power. US libertarians are perfectly content to leave unaccountable, private, vaguely totalitarian power concentrations in place, while dismantling the (at least potentially) democratic institutions that could provide a check on their exercise of power.

Am I the only one who seriously doubts that this Nicole is for real? She seems like too perfect a caricature for me to entirely believe that this isn't some attempt at high-concept humour. Her ideology sounds like a 1950s-era propaganda film ("Johnny was a quadruple-amputee whose parents were poor miners, but through hard work, clean living, and unwavering dedication to the cause of our flag and our leaders, he is now the chairman of the board of the Chrysler corporation!"). Even "Nicole"'s avowed major seems like a potential attempt at humour. Broadcast journalism, the industry that decided that what the news needs more than anything is banter and product placement. She's just too much the cartoonish unreflective-cheerleader-type for me to buy the routine.

As someone who's about to graduate from college, I know all the opportunities this country offers.

Hey Babycakes, get ready to whip out your lube, since you're about to be sodomized by the student loan industry (I'd recommend Liquid Silk)! Yep, combine that with some emergency dental work and get back to me about the land of "opportunity."

Moxie:

So by have all my facts, you mean be able to read? Got it, thanks.

She is obviously referring to another poster as a "fucking cunt." Arguably sarcastically, yes, but her meaning, that the poster is a fucking cunt, but we're too PC to call her that, is clear none the less. Arguing she didn't really MEAN it, she just said we might hypothetically call her one, is semantics.

As this is theoretically an open discussion site, as opposed to a clique, I don't see where it's my error to not know a poster well enough to properly interpret their comments. You may have a different view about her meaning, and sarcasm, but you can stop being so condescending.

*Roni: I think it matters whether I know how long Mina's been posting here. I have a history of reading her posts & sincerely doubt that she was actually saying, "Everyone call Nicole a cunt!" I think she was being hyperbollic. If you take everything literally, then that's your problem.
And based on the tone of your post, it really didn't sound like you'd read the whole thing. It sounded like you saw the words "fucking cunt" & flipped out.
Damn, we've been called PC by what, 2 separate posters, we must be doing our job. ^.^

"Arguably sarcastically, yes, but her meaning, that the poster is a fucking cunt, but we're too PC to call her that"

Actually, the idea was less "we're too PC to call her that" than "isn't she too anti-PC to dislike that?"

Likewise, what if someone claims that etiquette is merely outdated and stuffy or only for sucking up to rich people or whatever? I've heard those too. Must the rest of us continue to treat these people in a more-polite manner after knowing they reject politeness? Wouldn't that be like continuing to use "Miss" or "Mrs." for someone after knowing she rejects those terms and prefers "Ms." or "Dr."?

Meanwhile, what about the "don't care what anyone else thinks!!!" crowd? Must we keep caring what they think?

Moxie: Hypocrisy, condescension, and cliquishness seem to be your major debating tools and can't be abandoned. Got it, nevermind then.

Mina: I get what you're saying and I agree. My point is simply, despite Moxie's tangent, is that there's a less anti-woman way of expressing it than "Fucking cunt". It's easy to separate insults from their meanings, but I'm surprised there's not much comment on using a term that's inherently derogative towards women regardless of whether it's being used literally, sarcastically or whatever.

It's easy to separate insults from their meanings, but I'm surprised there's not much comment on using a term that's inherently derogative towards women regardless of whether it's being used literally, sarcastically or whatever.

I think that that was the point, actually. What was dubbed "PC" by the right wing was the idea that people should perhaps not go around using racial/ethnic/gender/etc. slurs all the time. As I understood it, anyway, the idea was that, since Nicole rejects that idea, she would have no objection to such slurs being used against her. If a derogatory term had been used that wasn't anti-woman (say "vapid moron"), the whole thing wouldn't have worked.

Elise, ok, I get it now.

I was interpreting as an inversion of who was being PC. As in, it was Mina's own PCness protecting Nicole from being called a cunt, not Nicole's rejection on PC meant she wouldn't mind.

I was getting stuck where it still kind of breaks down, objecting to political correctness does not equal accepting blatant insults, but I better get where she was coming from. Thanks.

"I was getting stuck where it still kind of breaks down, objecting to political correctness does not equal accepting blatant insults"
No? Why not? "Nappy headed ho" is not a blatant insult in your dictionary?

"No? Why not? "Nappy headed ho" is not a blatant insult in your dictionary?"

This is what I talking about where being combative and condescending isn't at all helpful. Not only is it one hell of a stretch to draw that conclusion from what I was saying, I at no point mentioned Don Imus at all in the conversation. So why try and stir shit up?

Hypocrisy, condescension, and cliquishness seem to be your major debating tools and can't be abandoned.
FtW? I have been nothing but polite to you, Roni. How have I been hypocritical? I explained why I thought you didn't read Mina's post & I explained why I trust Mina's intentions.
You accused Sojourner of stirring up shit but you're doing a pretty good job yourself.

Moxie, your whole "Might want to get the facts straight before you accuse" isn't terribly polite. I find it condescending to assume I didn't read what I was responding to and thus didn't have "The facts" so you HAD to set me straight. Unless of course you're calling "The facts" your opinion of Mina, which isn't really a fact. I should trust Mina's intentions because you trust her? Why should I trust you? You also assumed I "flipped out" and I take everything literally. Making assumptions about people and then slamming the them for your own assumptions has no place in polite or productive conversation.

It is hypocritical to take me to task for supposedly not reading a comment, then infer that I called you PC, which, I did not do in any way shape or form. Apparently, it is my lack of attentiveness that would lead me to interpret a comment differently than you, yet you grant yourself a lot of leeway in interpreting the comments of others.

Now, you've accused my of shit-stirring based on my responding to another poster. A response that had nothing to do with you, just something else you can use to start a fight.

Your responses have stuck me as both needlessly belligerent and self-involved, and never even addressed my original question. Contrast them with Elise's response which was pleasant, polite and resolved something. It didn't cast any aspersions on my intelligence, my literalness, or my mood. THAT is why I feel constructive conversation with you is pointless.

I find it condescending to assume I didn't read what I was responding to and thus didn't have "The facts" so you HAD to set me straight.
I'm sorry you read it that way. That's the way your response to Mina's comment appeared to me, I really thought you had just saw the word cunt & got upset. That's not the first time it happened here.
I didn't say that you called me PC. Before you posted, Nicole called us all PC for wanting Imus off the air. Then you said that we were too PC to call out Mina. That's what I was refering to.
Your responses have stuck me as both needlessly belligerent and self-involved, and never even addressed my original question.
I thought I responded pretty well, that Mina was using hyperbole.
I really am trying to understand your POV but I just felt really attacked from the moment you responded to my defense of Mina.

Similarly, I felt attacked in your defense of Mina, who I tried not to even mention until another poster asked what I was referring to.

Can you see how when you ignored my point entirely, assumed I was the kind of idiot to respond to a comment with out reading it, and dismissed me of being ignorant of "the facts", which as far as I can tell consist of your personal experience with Mina, it came across as combative right out of the gate? You didn't ask me to clarify anything, you made assumptions and attacked me for not a having a history with a poster to recognize her sarcasm. The question was my interpretation of her comment, not whether or not I read it.

As for calling you PC, long before my comment to Elise which you're referring to, after a reply to me, you said "Damn, we've been called PC by what, 2 separate posters, we must be doing our job. ^.^" I don't think it's a stretch to take that as referring to me.

I appreciate you trying to work stuff out now. My POV is that that your assumption about me "flipping out", chastising me, and then interpreting my negative response to your accusations as an unprovoked attack, looks more like picking a fight, rather than trying to have a discussion.

My original point is kind of moot now. It was in reference to a greater trend on feministing that I thought Mina was participating in. I understand now, that in this case, she said "fucking cunt" to a very specific purpose. That wasn't clear in to me in her comment, and not having any particular history with her, or Nicole, I didn't have the proper context to put it in.