We'll just say this once more, slowly: If a man gets an erection while looking at a woman, it is not because the woman chose to give it to him. So stop fucking blaming us for it, already! Seriously, guys--if you don't have any control over what your penis does, why on earth would you think we do? Sheesh.

Obligatory joke:
By any chance was the bus driver's surname Althouse?

what the fuck. that's just damn ridiculous. He was getting off on seeing a woman's boobs, couldn't force himself to do his JOB and now he's blaming the woman? So I guess women with awesome breasts will be forced to sit at the back of the bus?

Wow - so women who dare go in public revealing any cleavage will be banished to the bus so to not cause the pig of a bus driver any distractions. Do you think that would hold up in court if there was an accident with the bus? I bet the woman would've been blamed somehow. I mean, after all, men can't help themselves. *rolls eyes*

If Matthew McConnaughey walked onto a bus shirtless, would a female bus driver be justified in kicking him off the bus because she couldn't help but stare at his chiseled physique?

The (un)common sense answer here is to just don't look.

Does mean that if we all flash our boobs as Bush at a crucial moment he will be rendered incapable of ""running the country""?

I've been distracted by women's racks (and faces, legs and asses, etc) at work before, but never to the point where I couldn't do my job and certainly not to the point where I made a spectacle of myself.

Seriously, guys--if you don't have any control over what your penis does, why on earth would you think we do? Sheesh.

In point of fact, we have almost no control over where, when and why we get boners. It's Biology 101. If we could control our woodies, we could save ourselves a lot of embarassment. What we can control is how we act when we get them, and this wanker stopping a bus full of passengers to harangue a girl because her knockers gave him a chubby (and in doing so, announcing to the whole world what a total perv he is) doesn't cut it.

The guy is an asshole, plain and simple.

Now, the driver shouldn't have flipped out, but I have to say I have some sympathy. Maybe he'd nearly just hit something. If this top was really low cut, I imagine it would be a distraction. It's hard for the eyes not to wander sometime, espically if it was filling the rear-view mirror.

If more men did wander around topless, do you really think there wouldn't be the occasional crash as a woman strained her neck around as she went past, then went straight into a lamp-post?

Oh, and the buses around where I live won't let shirtless people on, so that deals with that problem.

Does mean that if we all flash our boobs as Bush at a crucial moment he will be rendered incapable of ""running the country""?
--Bowlersized

Is THAT what happened?

Oh, seriously, fuck that guy. I'm glad that the woman went to the media. They should organize protests in the form of tons of women riding the buses one day in really low cut tops to show solidarity.

Azumanga, you clearly don't get it.

"If more men did wander around topless, do you really think there wouldn't be the occasional crash as a woman strained her neck around as she went past, then went straight into a lamp-post?"

Actually you would probably have more gay men doing that than women based on studies of the readership of Playgirl Magazine (with its nude male centerfold) that showed the majority of its buyers were gay men.

Maybe he'd nearly just hit something. If this top was really low cut, I imagine it would be a distraction. It's hard for the eyes not to wander sometime, espically if it was filling the rear-view mirror.

That's his problem, not hers. He's responsible for his actions. I don't care how low-cut her top was, it's his choice to be distracted by it or not. I find lots of things distracting, but, unless someone is actively touching me or doing something like shouting in my ear, it's my responsibility to focus and deal with what I'm doing.

If more men did wander around topless, do you really think there wouldn't be the occasional crash as a woman strained her neck around as she went past, then went straight into a lamp-post?

What kind of keystone cops world are you living in?

Seriously, if some guy can't control himself enough so that he doesn't turn around straining his neck while he's driving, he shouldn't be driving. Anyone who is so easily distracted by other people shouldn't be in control of a one-ton piece of machinary.

The bus driver is insane as is the bus company that supports him.

DallasSuz, that's silly. Women like half-dressed men just as much as men are attracted to half-dressed women. I don't think I'd walk into a lamp post or traffic, but I live in New York and NEVER see man cleavage so it would be novelty enough to turn my head. On the other hand, why is there so much female cleavage everywhere I turn? I can't even find a cute shirt that doesn't reveal my mammary glands these days. I'm not condemning cleavage, but why such a difference? Women spilling out and men confined in suits and slacks.

So not only did Mr. BusDriver prove that he doesnt have the concentration skills to do the job, he also proved he doesnt have the mental skills (and neither does the company), for being stupid enough to complain about it and embarrass that woman (and then backup the drivers decision). Now maybe this is just me talking, but if I was ever embarrassed for no reason to such a degree, the very least I would have to do is head butt the person responsible. In this case the driver.

Or I would have to exit the bus if I witnessed such a thing, and try to resist the urge to spit in the drivers face as I left. I think any driver that makes a claim like that is a danger to others, and if I had my way they would be fired and never allowed to drive again.

I like how "existing with boobs" translates to "being too sexy" in the article - it's not just the driver, but the reporter too! Thanks, journalism!

This sounds like the same convoluted, fucked-up logic they used in my high school when they were trying to pass a dress code. Y'know, if the young impressionable boys could see our shoulders or (*gasp*) bra straps, they would become so horny it would distract them from their studies and thus fail out of school. Because they can't control themselves and it's up to us to be sure we don't give up the goodies and distract the men.

No one ever mentioned the concept that guys being dressed a certain way might be distracting to girls, but believe you me, if I was interested in a guy there was nothing he could wear that would stop me from ogling him and being distracted in whatever class we shared.

I can't believe the company he works for stood behind him on this. Gross. Self-control, man, self-control. I've encountered plenty of attractive people in my job before, but I didn't give them back their merchandise and say, "Sorry sir, I can't ring you up because you're too attractive and I might lose my concentration, hit the wrong button, and accidently overcharge you."

We should take this story with a slight grain of salt. Bild-Zeitung is one of Germany's more notorious tabloids. They'll print damn near anything (if it includes breasts, so much the better).

Does mean that if we all flash our boobs as Bush at a crucial moment he will be rendered incapable of ""running the country""?

Um, Bowleserised, I think he was born incapable.

I'm kind of suspicious also. Given their penchant for posting Weekly World News articles unquestioned, Yahoo News isn't exactly the most reliable of sources.

But, the underlying attitude is very much real. As a guy, I honestly can't understand why any one would take this position. Not so much out of a sense of enlightment, but more because of my inner pig. I mean, if you enjoy looking at women's cleavage, why would you want to discourage them from showing it? Not only is it extremely sexist to blame women for arousing us, it isn't even in our best interest.

Exactly. The last thing I would do if a woman showed me an amazing set of boobs is fuss and complain. No, I'm pretty sure my response would be friendlier than that.

Fact check: several eons ago(twenty years) I was the articles editor of Playgirl magazine, and repeat studies always came back with the same (approximate) numbers: no more than a third of the readers were gay men.

So girls ogled the centerfolds by a two-thirds majority. But despite the good looking (sometimes shirtless) hunk parade through the office a staff top loaded with heterosexual women managed to get a magazine out every damn month.

In fact, we pitied the talent coordinator who screened centerfolds: choking levels of cologne polluted her office, and after she'd ask the prospective beefcake to remove their shirts for a Polaroid, she'd sometimes return to find they'd stripped down to Too Much Information.

True story, although I doubt the German equivalent of Weekly World News.

How much cleavage are we talking here?

Tch Jessica, you of all people should know it's not just guys who are distracted by boobage. ;)

"Y'know, if the young impressionable boys could see our shoulders or (*gasp*) bra straps, they would become so horny it would distract them from their studies and thus fail out of school."

I'm reminded of a story a friend told me: When they were having a similar debate at her school, a boy in her class declared that seeing bra straps was distracting, and the teacher snarkily retorted with, "Actually, I'd be more distracted if she were wearing a tank top and I couldn't see the bra strap."

Was the bus driver being sexually harassed?

In other words, does the bus driver have the right to work in an environment that is not sexualized?

For example, if a female bus driver was uncomfortable because there was a calendar of a woman with revealing breasts, or a male with very low cut jeans, or a passenger wearing revealing clothing, would she have the right to complain?

This may be off the beaten path, but apparently in a survey, 72 percent responded that they thought it was inappropriate to show women breastfeeding on tv. Apparently men and women can't handle any glimpses of cleavage.
Story here: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/Story?id=3378982&page=1

UCLA - what the?

Do you really think that the situation sounds like sexual harrassment of the bus driver? Because a woman with a low-cut top got on his bus? Really?

Your hypotheticals have nothing to do with the situation being discussed.

Despite being a heterosexual man for as long as I can remember I have yet to be distracted by breasts to the point of injury to myself or others. In fact on a day to day basis I encounter attractive women whom I manage to not ogle or even stare at.

Despite protests to the contrary, men are fully capable of controlling the place our eyes look.

I might just be stirring the pot...But I don't really understand the need for women to show gratuitous cleavage. When I'm going out, maybe a little, but on a bus in the middle of the day? I went to dinner with one of my friends the other night and her breasts were HANGING out of her shirt. I stared at them for the whole meal. SHe was complaining about men talking to her and all icould do was look at her chest and say "and you wonder why?". Men shouldnt be as asinine as this bus driver was, but I also think that it wouldnt hurt women to minimize the cleavage. Sometimes it happens, accidentally, but if not, the sole purpose of cleavage is to entice men. WOmen are not responsible for men being perverted, but as a separate issue, this women should probably do a little more to cover herself up. I'm not going to fight for her right to make it ok for the rest of us who work hard to be objectified.

I might just be stirring the pot...But I don't really understand the need for women to show gratuitous cleavage. When I'm going out, maybe a little, but on a bus in the middle of the day? I went to dinner with one of my friends the other night and her breasts were HANGING out of her shirt. I stared at them for the whole meal. SHe was complaining about men talking to her and all icould do was look at her chest and say "and you wonder why?". Men shouldnt be as asinine as this bus driver was, but I also think that it wouldnt hurt women to minimize the cleavage. Sometimes it happens, accidentally, but if not, the sole purpose of cleavage is to entice men. WOmen are not responsible for men being perverted, but as a separate issue, this women should probably do a little more to cover herself up. I'm not going to fight for her right to make it ok for the rest of us who work hard to be objectified.

I might just be stirring the pot...But I don't really understand the need for women to show gratuitous cleavage. When I'm going out, maybe a little, but on a bus in the middle of the day? I went to dinner with one of my friends the other night and her breasts were HANGING out of her shirt. I stared at them for the whole meal. SHe was complaining about men talking to her and all icould do was look at her chest and say "and you wonder why?". Men shouldnt be as asinine as this bus driver was, but I also think that it wouldnt hurt women to minimize the cleavage. Sometimes it happens, accidentally, but if not, the sole purpose of cleavage is to entice men. WOmen are not responsible for men being perverted, but as a separate issue, this women should probably do a little more to cover herself up. I'm not going to fight for her right to make it ok for the rest of us who work hard to be objectified.

Ugh, so sorry for the triple post.

Photo, and weird google translation here

Tell me, dirtybug, what, exactly, constitutes "gratuitous" cleavage? You running around with a tape measure, checking just how much cleavage it is OK to show?

I'm flat-chested, but even I know that if you have large boobs, it is impossible to wear a shirt lower-cut than a crew-neck without showing cleavage, and that very, very few women look good in a crew-neck. Why shouldn't a woman dress in a manner that is comfortable and attractive?

if not, the sole purpose of cleavage is to entice men.

Not, for instance, because it's the height of summer, and wearing high-necks is uncomfortable? Or because some of us are uncomfortable wearing anything close around our necks? Who made you the sole arbiter of Why Cleavage Exists?

this women should probably do a little more to cover herself up

Why? She's not hurting anyone. She likes the way she looks. The bus driver sexually harrassed her. He should have to change his ways, not she.

"I might just be stirring the pot...But I don't really understand the need for women to show gratuitous cleavage. When I'm going out, maybe a little, but on a bus in the middle of the day? I went to dinner with one of my friends the other night and her breasts were HANGING out of her shirt. I stared at them for the whole meal. SHe was complaining about men talking to her and all icould do was look at her chest and say "and you wonder why?". Men shouldnt be as asinine as this bus driver was, but I also think that it wouldnt hurt women to minimize the cleavage. Sometimes it happens, accidentally, but if not, the sole purpose of cleavage is to entice men. WOmen are not responsible for men being perverted, but as a separate issue, this women should probably do a little more to cover herself up. I'm not going to fight for her right to make it ok for the rest of us who work hard to be objectified."

Multiple objections to this, starting with the fact that it feels like you just rephrased the standard "she asked for it." In the photo in the article Derek posted, the woman is not "hanging out of her top" and even if she was, she's allowed to do so. There's no "need" for her to do so, but there's no need for her to wear a turtleneck either... although of course no one would complain about that. I often show off a lot of cleavage, often inadvertently since I have extremely big breasts. A lot of people find that distracting enough to stare at even if I DO wear a turtleneck. I'm not embarrassed to wear low cut tops, however, because I feel like I have attractive breasts and don't mind if other people look. I also sometimes wear purple eyeliner to show off my green eyes. Am I allowed to do that, or is it to enticing and distracting? Some women like to dress to show off their cleavage or other body parts because it makes them feel similarly attractive. Usually they are fully aware that someone is going to check them out, and it doesn't hurt anyone. If someone looks at me it's flattering, but it's also something THEY choose to do and have full control over. What the driver did was nasty, embarrassing and inappropriate. It wouldn't be ok for the bus driver to loudly tell someone to move because s/he was so "ugly that I can't concentrate," so it's not okay to tell someone they are so attractive one can't concentrate around them.

I'm also really offended that you implied that she "should" do more to cover herself up so that it doesn't affect you. Hate to break it to you, but it doesn't affect you. You aren't "objectified" because someone else decided to wear a top she liked. You're probably objectified in a thousand other ways by a million other people through out you're life. Do you really desperately want another one?

Finally...what are your opinions on women breastfeeding? Should they be allowed to do so in public, or should that be against the rules since the real "purpose" of breasts is to "entice men"? (Not to feed babies or anything. Breasts are special body parts magically endowed with extreme sexual powers, and people should be allowed to have bizarre and inappropriate actions when exposed to them.)

Just to respond toEG...

I dont think the woman should cover up because the man was distracted. No way, no how. my problem with her cleavage isnt because men are uncontrollably hormonal. It's more of an issue with women who flaunt cleavage unaccidentally. There's a fine line, certainly. I'm almost flat too and I know that a lower neck shirt on me is fine, but would look terribly provocative ona larger chested woman. But, i think there has to be a certain amount of care when dressing for your body type. I am very conscious of the way that I look when going to say, work. I think that care should extend to everyone, big or small, and that they should dress in a way that makes them look professional. I would take care to make myself look covered up given the weather, i think that that should extend to any woman, regardless of chest size. I'd rather have us have the choice, but I think we should be resposnsible with that choice. It's so hard for me to get respect working a corporate job, just b/c of the women who think getting ahead means showing a lot of skin.

To respond:

Im trying to get across the point that I'mn not arguing with womens' right to wear what they choose. Maybe it's my college years, but I dont think that a majority of the time, women are wearing what they want to wear b/c they want to wear it. I think it's almost always exclusively because of the way they look to men. The women on this blog are OBVIOUSLY different than the general population. Remember that. I applaud you, but I have been around women that don't share your beliefs. If you want to wear what you want to wear, DO IT! But if you want to show cleavage b/c it makes you more attractive tothe opposite sex, I'm not going to defend you.

Seriously, dirtybug, you are pissing me off with your prescriptions and presumptions. Try finding a shirt that fits both your waist and your d-cup bust (you can forget about anything that buttons). If you're like me, you're now left with a sparse handful of tops that are still going to get that awkward stretch line. Next rule out anything that shows any cleavage so that people (like you) won't get the impression that you're a total trampgadget. Take anything left that is less than $50 (and for the love of all things decent, please let men know where you were able to find it.)

I saw the picture. They're very nice and she's really cute. Ogling I could understand, but stopping the bus and threatening to kick her off? What an asshole!

But if you want to show cleavage b/c it makes you more attractive tothe opposite sex, I'm not going to defend you.

Defend me from what, pray tell? Sexual harrassment? So, you do think that sexual harrassment is the appropriate response to an attractive woman? And that the only women who shouldn't have to endure such harrassment are those who make themselves as plain as possible? Where are you going to draw the line? What if I wear lipstick and get a professional haircut? What if I wear a close-fitting skirt? At what magic point does it become OK to harrass me?

You might also think about why, in our culture, cleavage is "not professional." Is it perhaps because women's bodies have been treated as sexual objects for so long that it's become the default way to view them?

"But if you want to show cleavage b/c it makes you more attractive to the opposite sex, I'm not going to defend you."

What, specifically, is morally wrong with wanting to look attractive? Ok, so someone can't show cleavage just to feel attractive. What if they like wearing blue because it looks nice on them? Is that alright? What about choosing a haircut because it looks nice?
Yes, sometimes I wear things because they make me feel attractive. In fact, whether some makes me feel cute or hideous almost always factors into my clothing decisions. Yes, some people wear things just so they can go find someone to fuck. So what? They're allowed to, and again, it really doesn't affect you if a woman walks in a bar in a set of pasties in order to get some attention.

I can see a problem with people dressing a certain way SOLELY because they are desperate for attention, but isn't that more sad than anything else? If a woman feels her only value is her big ol' boobs, or pretty face, or ability to give someone a boner, it doesn't make you feel sorry for her? Just offended? If women (according to you, MOST women) feel pressured to dress exclusively to tantalize men, then insisting they cover up or complaining that they make you somehow look bad isn't helpful. Figure out how to attack/complain about the cause (young women feeling pressured to always look good), not the effect (young women doing what they feel they're supposed to do).

There are several cities named Lindau in Germany including one near Berlin, but this Lindau in southern Bavaria on Lake Constance (der Bodensee) has four short buslines, each of the four running twice an hour and meeting at the same transfer point at 10 and 40 minutes after the hour.

In short, this town is a small resort in a religiously very conservative part of Germany's most conservative state of Bavaria. Calling it a city is too much; with its "suburbs" it has less than 80,000 people.

German bus drivers are, in general, extremely professional and take their jobs as seriously as U.S. physicians and attorneys take theirs and are about as territorial. The sales clerk worked in a fashion boutique for a vacation clientele and was reportedly dressed like this.

My hunch is that this story is as much about a culture clash between Catholic Bavaria and avant-garde Germany as anything else.

The other question I have is whether this worker may perhaps have been a seasonal employee from Italy or Italian-speaking Switzerland, given that her real name was Debora Moscone, not a typical Bavarian surname. In other words, it's conceivable that ethnicity or other bigotry could have played into this scenario though additional facts would be needed. Stated bluntly, Ms. Moscone does not look like a stereotypical Bavarian in the same way that Al Pacino doesn't, though that's an extreme overgeneralization; she may have looked like and been an outsider to the driver and thus perceived as more vulnerable to bullying.

The other thing is that the passenger apparently made a show of sitting MORE directly behind the bus driver after the driver's initial request that she move and she thought it was a joke. This is translated from the German article above.

You guys are kind of arguing for the sake of arguing. IE EXPLICITYL SAID, it can be accidental, clothes that fit everyone's body type are hard to come by, i definitely know this. I didnt say there was anything MORally WRONG with wanting to look attractive, i specifically said that it's deplorable to strive to look attractive (not for yourselves), but for the opposite sex. You guys should read the actual statements I make before trying to defend yourselves. I'mnot arguing against you. I'm arguing against women that choose to show skin b/c they want to be sex objects for men. This board is frustrating, because it becomes a board where women feel the need to defend themselves for looking a certain way. No one is critiscizing you. No one cares if I'm a B and you're a D. The critisicm lies in the reasoning behind why you choose to dress a certain way. If you can show your cleavage off willingly (without being a victim of ill fitting clothing) and feel sexy for yourself, FINE! But if you show your breasts off because you think it will win you points with men, I again, will NOT defend you. Please, ladies, read what I am saying before you make comments against me that do not address my argument.

It DOES offend me personally, trying to get both women and men to take me seriously, when other women feel that their only value lies in their physical attractiveness. I would rather die than say fine, have women do what they want even if it directly puts me at a disadvantage. What is the point of feminism when it just exists to further enslave women to their coutnerparts? I will NEVER defend your right to use freedom in a way that negatively affects me. If you think showing your GRATUITOUS cleavage, (as I stipulated in my original post) is the only way for you to feel attractive, get A BRAIN and do something substantial with your lives. If your cleavage and your mind and your talents make you feel attractive, preach on. Dont let this become a post for women with big breats or skinny waists or a great bod to tell the world of their troubles. I'm not critiscizing you for the body you were born with, i'm standing against women who use their bodies ONLY to enslave us and tanatalize men.

You guys are kind of arguing for the sake of arguing. IE EXPLICITYL SAID, it can be accidental, clothes that fit everyone's body type are hard to come by, i definitely know this. I didnt say there was anything MORally WRONG with wanting to look attractive, i specifically said that it's deplorable to strive to look attractive (not for yourselves), but for the opposite sex. You guys should read the actual statements I make before trying to defend yourselves. I'mnot arguing against you. I'm arguing against women that choose to show skin b/c they want to be sex objects for men. This board is frustrating, because it becomes a board where women feel the need to defend themselves for looking a certain way. No one is critiscizing you. No one cares if I'm a B and you're a D. The critisicm lies in the reasoning behind why you choose to dress a certain way. If you can show your cleavage off willingly (without being a victim of ill fitting clothing) and feel sexy for yourself, FINE! But if you show your breasts off because you think it will win you points with men, I again, will NOT defend you. Please, ladies, read what I am saying before you make comments against me that do not address my argument.

It DOES offend me personally, trying to get both women and men to take me seriously, when other women feel that their only value lies in their physical attractiveness. I would rather die than say fine, have women do what they want even if it directly puts me at a disadvantage. What is the point of feminism when it just exists to further enslave women to their coutnerparts? I will NEVER defend your right to use freedom in a way that negatively affects me. If you think showing your GRATUITOUS cleavage, (as I stipulated in my original post) is the only way for you to feel attractive, get A BRAIN and do something substantial with your lives. If your cleavage and your mind and your talents make you feel attractive, preach on. Dont let this become a post for women with big breats or skinny waists or a great bod to tell the world of their troubles. I'm not critiscizing you for the body you were born with, i'm standing against women who use their bodies ONLY to enslave us and tanatalize men.

Ok. I am so so so sorry for the double posts. I will use internet explorer next time.

"What is the point of feminism when it just exists to further enslave women to their coutnerparts?"

Um, ok.

dirtybug, maybe try the feminism101 blog. I get the feeling you are somewhat new to this kind of ideology, and maybe you need to do a little background reading.

The areas you are discussing - women's bodies and the Gaze, sexualisation of breasts, self image vs. public image, double standards in sexual expression for women and men etc etc are pretty well discussed feminist topics.

I don't mean this in a rude way, but there is quite a lot written on all these topics from a feminist perspective.

Maybe try "The Beauty Myth" for starters, it's accessible and interesting.

"i specifically said that it's deplorable to strive to look attractive (not for yourselves), but for the opposite sex."

What's so deplorable about not wanting to get bullied? I've been bullied for not being attractive enough to the opposite sex, and it sucked.

I have finished the beauty myth (one of the first things I read on the subejct thank you cheap books on amazon), and a wealth of other feminist blogs/literature. My opinions on the matter grow from both the information I've read in the past, to what I see happening now in mainstream media. This also stems from what I feel to be true based on personal experiences I have trying to make it both in school and in the professional world. My opinion isn;t safe, but it's one that I have shaped based on years of feeling like I am judged a certain way based on the actions of my fellow women. I can't follow that school of thought anymore. WHile it may not be agreeable to certain feminists, I stand by my views and insist that I do so in order to benefit all of us. As I said in my original post, I would rather women have that choice. But I won't defend them doing things htat i think affect me negatively. It'd be spectacular if we could dowhat we pleased and not be critiscized or demoted because of it. We're not there yet. ANd for ME, I'd rather have the personal achievement. I wish this wasnt even an issue we had to discuss, but it IS. I know what it's like to be critiscized by the opposite sex mina, like i said, skinny b cup. Some men (women also) aren't forgiving. But to me, id rather take the bullying than be selling myself out in order to be considered attractive. Anyway, to step back for a bit, whoever is wrong or right, I love this kind of argumentation. I thought I'd meet people that wanted to argue in college, but that was a bust. Thanks feministing.

While I do agree that women have the right to wear what they want and not be harassed (because nothing you do is an invitation for harassment) I do kind of have to admit that I internally make a snap judgment when I see an extremely scantily clad woman. I think it's because for the most part, you dress the way you want people to perceive you. Also, I saw the picture of that girl's outfit. I was expecting her boobs to be directly under her chin with a band-aid over each nipple. Even tho she would have the right to dress like that if she wanted, and still not be harassed, she wasn't...Not even remotely...

i love some of these responses! I don't have much to add except I agree- it's not a woman's job to make so you do your job right. Why don't we all just wear sheets so no man will look at us?
Is it also our responsibility to make sure men don't cat-call, harass, or rape us? I mean, we were asking for it by wearing a low-cut shirt, yes?

dirtybug - yeah it's great to have somewhere to discuss stuff, eh?

I guess my problem with your argument is essentially Pamela's.

Maybe if it were true that if we all wore a certain kind of shirt, we wouldn't be harrassed, I'd go along with your points.

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

I guess my feminism tells me to "Trust Women".
Trust them that they are grown ups, and as such can choose to wear what they want when they want, just like men do, without a second thought.

Your own personal choices are yours to make. Accept that other women have just as much right to their own personal decisions.

You never defined what "gratuitous" cleavage is, dirtybug. What, exactly, makes some cleavage gratuitous and other cleavage not? Who, exactly, gets to make that call? Are we all supposed to submit our cleavage to you for inspection to make sure we meet the standard?

I'm arguing against women that choose to show skin b/c they want to be sex objects for men.

So, who are straight women supposed to want to be sex objects for? Seriously. While women have been objectified by men to a deeply damaging degree, there is nothing immoral, antifeminist, or damaged about wanting the people to whom you're attracted to find you attractive as well. Straight and bi women are going to want men to find them attractive. They might then indicate that in their manner of dress. I fail to see the problem.

i'm standing against women who use their bodies ONLY to enslave us and tanatalize men.

I've never been enslaved by another woman's body. I've been deeply disempowered by men's behavior, by political rhetoric and action, and by the actions of sexist women. But I've never looked at a woman showing cleavage and thought to myself "she's hurting me!" And that is because, unlike sexist men, I am aware that what other people choose to display on their bodies is not all about me. As for tantalizing men...see my previous paragraph. What, precisely, is wrong with wanting to be attractive to men when one is straight or bi?

Look, I have a lot of problems with the way people dress today. I can't stand flip-flops; I want to smack everyone wearing backwards baseball caps; and yes, I've seen far more midriffs than I care to. But so what? Other people don't have to dress to please me, and my personal tastes don't give me some kind of inside line on feminism.

years of feeling like I am judged a certain way based on the actions of my fellow women.

Perhaps, then, you should turn your righteous ire on those doing the judging. Otherwise, all you're doing is enforcing their party line. Not very feminist at all, in my opinion.

I would rather die than say fine, have women do what they want even if it directly puts me at a disadvantage.

Really? You'd rather die? Chacun a son gout, I suppose. I fail to see how other women showing cleavage puts you at a disadvantage. I certain can understand how a general cultural understanding of women's bodies as objects for sexual display puts us all at a disadvantage, but blaming individual women for choosing different ways of coping with that pressure and of presenting themselves does nothing to alter that cultural pressure. It just alienates women who might otherwise be allies. It seems that your vision of feminism is one in which men no longer determine what is acceptable behavior/dress for women, but you do. I'll pass. And I'm flat-chested.

"So, who are straight women supposed to want to be sex objects for?"

I don't want to be a sex object for anybody. Do you?

I do. I want the people I'm attracted to to be attracted to me, as well. That's what it means to be a sexual object--to be the object of sexual desire. I do not think a satisfying sexual relationship can exist if one's partner is not attracted to one.

The problem is that women have been reduced, culturally, to nothing but sexual objects, and our sexual subjectivity has been erased. Men, as the dominant group, have put their sexual subjectivity at the center of the sexual universe, so to speak, instead of recognizing that subject-hood and object-hood are ultimately relative constructions. Instead of recognizing that, patriarchy insists that male subjectivity, including sexual subjectivity, is the "natural" way things are, and that women are objects--sexual objects. Which leads to, among far worse outcomes, men on the whole making no effort to make themselves attractive to women--hence all those slobby, unappealing men married to impossibly "perfect" (by the fucked up standards of Hollywood) looking wives on sitcoms and in movies and such.

I don't think the answer is to throw out sexual object-hood completely. First of all, I don't think that's possible. Second of all, if you do that, you get a lack of desire: if nobody can desire anybody else, there's no sex.

I think that we need to combine sexual subjecthood with sexual objecthood.

At the risk of being attacked for being sexist (or accused of being a troll) I can understand the bus driver's position.

I don't agree with him trying to kick the woman off the bus - that was wrong, and could have gotten her docked for being late to work, or even fired.

That was wrong - she's a member of the public, and has a right to ride a city bus, no matter how she's dressed.

But, let's face it, exposed cleavage is distracting to straight men (and, I would imagine, lesbian women).

You really see that in New York City this time of year, with some women wearing tops so small they might as well be walking down the street barechested.

That is a very provocative way to dress - and it encourages the more chauvanistic among my gender to stare, make sexist comments and otherwise act inappropriately.

Even those of us who are committed opponents of sexism (myself included) often find our eyes drifting down below collar bone level - and it takes an extra effort not to totally perv out.

So perhaps it might be better for all concerned for women to cover up the cleavage.

At the risk of being attacked for being sexist (or accused of being a troll) I can understand the bus driver's position.

I don't agree with him trying to kick the woman off the bus - that was wrong, and could have gotten her docked for being late to work, or even fired.

That was wrong - she's a member of the public, and has a right to ride a city bus, no matter how she's dressed.

But, let's face it, exposed cleavage is distracting to straight men (and, I would imagine, lesbian women).

You really see that in New York City this time of year, with some women wearing tops so small they might as well be walking down the street barechested.

That is a very provocative way to dress - and it encourages the more chauvanistic among my gender to stare, make sexist comments and otherwise act inappropriately.

Even those of us who are committed opponents of sexism (myself included) often find our eyes drifting down below collar bone level - and it takes an extra effort not to totally perv out.

So perhaps it might be better for all concerned for women to cover up the cleavage.

Sorry for the double post above!

And, while I'm here, let me make an addition to my above post(s).

I'm a carpenter, and, while my field is mostly male, there are a small but growing number of women in the business.

About a decade ago, when I worked at our city convention center, there was a young woman carpenter apprentice who worked there.

She was one of 30 women in a venue that employed about 950 men at the height of the trade show season.

She had developed a habit of acting in a very sexualized manner towards the guys, as a sort of survival technique.

One summer (it was August 1997 if I recall right - a very hot summer) she started coming to work in these very low cut spaghetti strap tops - and she was a very large breasted woman.

Needless to say, this provoked a lot of staring, leering, salacious comments and general perving out among the almost 1,000 men who worked at the center.

After about 2 days, she got taken aside by the General Foreman of Carpenters, and told, in very strong and uncertain terms, that she was sexually harassing the men by exposing her chest like that, and if she didn't wear a proper t shirt to work the next day, she'd get sent home without pay.

Needless to say, that ended the cleavagefest.

I am finally delurking to comment because I about fell off my chair with this one. I lived in Germany for five years, taking the public transportation system everywhere and sitting and waiting at stops with posters of topless women everywhere. I remember thinking that is was so different than America in the sense that it wasn't a big deal for women there to show their breasts. Breastfeeding was also a common feature at many public places. How could this young women's cleavage be "distracting" to a man that must see this everywhere as well?(Topless beaches, nude quarries and nude bath houses were the norm.) My best friend, a German native, has recently been telling me that Germany is becoming more "Americanized" all the time lately. It has been ten years since I lived there, but I must take her for her word after reading this post!!

Since this is my first time commenting, I must also add Thank You for all you do! I absolutely love this site. It has been very helpful for a beginner to feminism to lurk and learn as much as I can. These sites have helped me finally put intelligent words to my feelings that I have experienced my whole life.

Which leads to, among far worse outcomes, men on the whole making no effort to make themselves attractive to women--

EG I agreed with a lot of what you were saying up until this point. I don't think you're giving guys enough credit here. I mean, I lift weights, I run, I'm trying to lose four pounds, and I'm taking Propecia to try and regrow my thinning hair. I don't really watch sitcoms but in most romantic comedies I would consider the guy also hot. (Matthew McConaughey anyone?). Except for "Knocked Up" but that was the premise of the movie.

dirtybug, I have DDD boobs. Everything short of a turtleneck shows cleavage. I hate turtlenecks, plus, why should my choices be limited because mother nature and my DNA endowed me with huge knockers?

I don't wear skimpy little low cut tops (I'd like to be able to move without fear the one of the girls is going to come flying out), but if I have plenty o' cleavage when I'm not trying to (or even if I am), I shouldn't be ostracized or told where I can and can't sit on a bus because of it. I've already suffered enough embarrassment when I was first growing the enormous titties and 12 year old boys felt compelled to make comments every time I walked in front of the classroom.

Some remarks on the reporting above:

The title is (deliberately) wrong: there is no question of a "boob-ban".


The first line is unsubstantiated: we don't know if other public transportation services in Germany have an equivalent policy.

The quote reportedly originates from Bild.

A more complete report appears in local newpapers: dirtybug linked to it already, and I found a more complete version elsewhere.

There are some subtle differences between that article and the summary above:

The driver addressed the lady at the Heidenmauer bus stop; he didn't stop the bus specifically to have a word with her.

There is no mention of shouting; as far as we can tell, the bus driver spoke in a normal voice.

The driver didn't mention any particulars such as cleavage, but stated he was confused by the lady's appearance and felt distracted from his driving.

Debora M. (not C.) didn't initially take the driver's request seriously, but complied when he insisted, and raised the matter again when the bus had arrived at the railway station; the driver then reaffirmed that he was serious, and (very German) informed her that article 6 of the bus company's conditions of transportation gives him the authority to tell his passengers where to be seated.

A female employee of the bus company, who happened to witness the incident, has confirmed that the driver behaved courteously and correctly.

Managing director of the Lindau city bus system, Jens Fleck, declared that there is no dress code for city bus passengers, and that it would be silly to have one; but that individual drivers, whenever they feel a distraction hinders them from driving safely, are allowed to take appropriate measures.

The lady felt insulted when the driver asked her to sit somewhere else.

She felt more insulted when in their private discussion afterwards, he made "insinuations about her character".

She declares, when interviewed by the newspaper, that displaying cleavage is simply part of this summer's fashion trends and has nothing to do with character.

Have you ever experienced a moment where you were so struck by a person's appearance that you were unable to concentrate on what you were doing? I have.

Have you ever asked a passenger to stop distracting you so you can concentrate on traffic? I do that often, and with good reason.

You really see that in New York City this time of year, with some women wearing tops so small they might as well be walking down the street barechested.

The fact that it's summertime and really hot out has nothing to do with this, I'm sure.

That is a very provocative way to dress - and it encourages the more chauvanistic among my gender to stare, make sexist comments and otherwise act inappropriately.

And that would be the man's problem, wouldn't it? "She made me do it" is NOT a valid excuse. YOU are responsible for YOUR behavior. Unless you're arguing that cleavage induces some sort of sexist version of Tourette's Syndrome wherein catcalls spew uncontrollably from the mouths of men at the mere sight of it?

I thought not.

Cleavage doesn't, simply by existing, cause men to make sexist remarks. The belief that they're entitled to comment on it because they've been taught that women exist for their viewing pleasure, does.

"Even those of us who are committed opponents of sexism (myself included) often find our eyes drifting down below collar bone level - and it takes an extra effort not to totally perv out.

So perhaps it might be better for all concerned for women to cover up the cleavage."

No, it would be better for men to realize that we don't have any control or responsibility in determining how you act. You do. This is the same argument as the "she was asking for it" people use when a woman is sexually assaulted.

Dirtybug,

I agree with you on many points (and applaud your firmness in your opinion)though I think our media and culture is to blame rather than any individual woman. As I said in an earlier post and as others have said, it is difficult to find a shirt that doesn't reveal cleavage these days. I wear a lot of button-ups with tank tops underneath in the summer. Being a DDD, though, I can attest that there are some shirts that do not show any cleavage and are very flattering, those being boatnecks.

With that said, I don't buy cleavage-revealing shirts because I choose not to define myself by my breasts in any way, shape, or form. They're there. It's hot out, yea, but showing a few inches of my cleavage isn't going to cool me off (please!). And I am of the opinion that society's ongoing sexualization of women is indeed the driving force behind the ubiquity of cleavage--and some women play into that unknowingly and knowingly.

And again women are being presented by some commenters as being unable to make their own choices. It doesn't matter whether that choice is "I am hot and choose to wear as little as possible in the heat" or "I choose to exhibit myself as a sexual being because I am comfortable with myself that way" or "I know I'm going to be seeing that guy I've been flirting with for three weeks, and I wish to look sexy and possibly attract more than his friendship" or even just "I like this shirt and the way it fits on me and so I choose to wear it."

Believe it or not, those are all valid choices and none of them are harming you in any way. I could just as easily claim that by covering up any hint of boob, more "modest" women are harming me by exhibiting an image of woman as unsexual and unable to be open about our bodies.

Of course, that claim would be just as ridiculous as the claim that my cleavage is hurting you. And just for the record: I'm an A, and with the right bra and the right shirt I can rock cleavage just as well as the next girl. And sometimes I do. Know what? Hasn't harmed you yet, isn't going to.

Just as a curiousity, I would also like dirtybug to explain why a woman should be held to a "professional" dress standard just for getting on a bus or for being in public. Work dress codes are the pervue of the individual workplace. Everyone else can wear whatever they want.

Kimmy,

Maybe I choose to cover up a little more to show sympathy for the poor men who are wrapped up in ties and long sleeve shirts and polyester pants all summer long while women strip down to beat the heat. That's professional dress.

"And just for the record: I'm an A, and with the right bra and the right shirt I can rock cleavage just as well as the next girl. And sometimes I do. Know what? Hasn't harmed you yet, isn't going to."

As for your disclosure, I am glad artificial enhancements have empowered you. Rock on!

Kimmy,

Maybe I choose to cover up a little more to show sympathy for the poor men who are wrapped up in ties and long sleeve shirts and polyester pants all summer long while women strip down to beat the heat. That's professional dress.

"And just for the record: I'm an A, and with the right bra and the right shirt I can rock cleavage just as well as the next girl. And sometimes I do. Know what? Hasn't harmed you yet, isn't going to."

As for your disclosure, I am glad artificial enhancements have empowered you. Rock on!

Yeah, there's something really wrong with trying to look my best. Are you an A? If you are, you know that many styles of dress and shirt are cut too large in the chest when I buy large enough to fit my shoulders. This is made more difficult by the fact that I have long arms. Most shirts and dresses don't hang properly on me in my "natural" state, distorting the lines of the clothing. And even if that weren't the case, I see nothing wrong with enhancing what nature gave me, particularly since I'm doing it in a non-permanant, non-invasive way.

And again - professional dress is determined by individual work places. Not only can you not point to a single standard of what's good or bad, but you have no right to expect others to meet your standards. Nor are you harmed when they do not.

If you feel sorry for guys in shirts and ties and want to be hot to keep them company, that's your business. I certainly won't claim there's anything wrong with dressing however you choose for whatever reasons you have.

Unlike certain other people.

Kimmy,

Can you address the double standard in dress? How feminist is it that men don't have much of a choice?

As for enhancing appearance and attractiveness, it's all very lookist in the end and usually concerns male standards of beauty, and fails to accept the fact that A breasts are just as sexy as DDD breasts without modifications. Yet, I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion. I haven't mandated anyone's dress. Just like you!

"What about the menz?" Quite frankly, if men have a problem with the dress codes in their work spaces, they are free to complain and work to change that. It's not my problem. Women have enough issues of their own.

As far as standards of beauty...Sometimes I want to have cleavage. Not because I wish I had DD (my back is glad I don't). Just because I want to have cleavage. I like the look. I like to advertise that I have breasts which I consider to be beautiful. The problem is that A cups, on their own, do not do much in the way of cleavage.

Do you see something wrong with displaying a little cleavage every now and again if someone wants to? Especially if their reason is that they are proud of the beauty of their body and wish to share it with those around them? Is that someone disempowering to me? Is it disempowering to you? And how? Should I be ashamed of my breasts and always strive to keep them covered? Or should I glory in them, as I do?

And no, you haven't mandated anyone's dressed. Just judged them because of it.

Kimmy,

"Especially if their reason is that they are proud of the beauty of their body and wish to share it with those around them?"

I have my own breasts, thanks, so I don't need yours. But you're right it's a great way to show your insecurity, oops, I mean confidence.

"I like to advertise that I have breasts which I consider to be beautiful."
The semantics say it all. Commodification.

"The problem is that A cups, on their own, do not do much in the way of cleavage."

The issue here is that there should be no problem with A cups, or any size cup at all. This comment does harm. It reinforces standards of beauty and sexiness that feed the patriarcharchal norms. It seems that you have completely rationalized these standards (and then applied them to yourself) without admitting that there's nothing feminist about them.

In other words there is no way in your world that a woman can be proud of her body and share it with the world in any way. Women should cover up their bodies and hide them away from the light, and absolutely no self-confidence or love of self can exist because it's all a product of insecurity.

Jesus, but you've got a low opinion of women.

And no, saying A cups do not create cleavage is not a judgement and doesn't say anything bad about them. It's a physical fact. Cleavage is created by the breasts pushing in towards one another. Naturally large size can do this on its own. Most A cups are not large enough to accomplish this fact, and instead are more physically separate on the chest (at least mine are, and those of other A cups I've seen in my life) and therefore cannot create cleavage. I fail to see how acknowledging this physical fact is devaluing A cups in any way.

Again, you have a sad opinion of women. We can't love our bodies. We can't want to show them to others to celebrate their beauty. It is impossible for us to celebrate ourselves. To you, this all reeks of insecurity and rationalization.

Personally, I love my body. Sometimes I like to show it off, just as I like to show off my brain, my cat, my video collection, or my personal library. These are all things I'm proud of and things I love to share. Visually sharing your body with the world is nothing to be ashamed of if you're doing it from a place of love and celebration. To be unable to even see that as a possibility is just...sad. I can't think of any other word for it.

do not have a low opinion of women simply because I don't prescribe to the oversexualization of women (and girls) in every facet of life. Being a woman isn't just about being sexy, but you have placed so much emphasis on enhancing your physical sexual attractiveness. For whom? Men or yourself? Self-love, or self-objectification? And is it really necessary in the workplace?

Out of curiosity, is it acceptable for an individual in passing to remark that you are "beautiful" or "sexy" while you are sharing your beauty/sexiness with everyone? I am guessing you're going to play the she's-asking-for-it-card now, but I am talking about clean, respectful language spoken kindly.

As a victim of sexual assault and childhood molestation, the idea that I would ever say a woman was asking for it is offensive in the extreme.

Secondly, comments are welcome when it is made clear that comments are welcome. The mere fact that two people exist in the same physical area does not indicate that comments are welcome.

Thirdly, who said my being a woman was only about being sexy? I've already mentioned my other pursuits and things I'm proud of. In addition to that, I have a challenging job I'm proud of, I write fiction, I know web design, I've been interviewed on television and for newspapers, and I have numerous other accomplishments. Why do you assume that because I also take pride in my body that it is the only thing there is?

This just goes to show again that you have a low opinion of women.

Finally: This thread was about a woman on a bus, let me remind you. She didn't work on the bus, she was just riding it. And I've said a thousand times that what's appropriate dress in a given workplace is set by that place's higher-ups and no one else. They choose what's appropriate, not you and not me. So that really has nothing to do with anything (neither the original boobs in question, nor the issue of choice), and I don't understand why y'all keep trying to derail to that.

I was driving the bus, I would have made sure to hit every bump and pothole so I could see 'em bounce!

I might vomit.

Or get a sore neck.

Kimmy,

I wasn't suggesting that you subscribe to that philosophy. Please re-read.

And once again, I do not have a low opinion of women. I have a high one actually and I wouldn't be reading feministing if the case was otherwise. I do however have a low opinion of specific societal norms that I do feel harm women.

Itsnotfluff, why don't you try actually responding to my post as a whole. It would be interesting to see you do something other than claim that you don't have a low opinion of women or reiterate that you don't like cleavage. If you go a few posts of mine up you'll find a whole bunch of questions you never answered. And in the one immediately preceding this you'll find a question in the third paragraph I'm particularly interested in the answer to (especially given your claims regarding your attitude towards women).

Kimmy,

Without rereading all of your posts (b/c I need to go home), I will state my position again. I believe that for the most part Dirtybugs hit the nail on the head. I believe that intentional cleavage is a way to objectify one's self in order to gain sexual attention. I believe this plays in to the typical Maxim/Playboy/raunch culture stereotypes that are now commonplace. It's never necessary at work. You are there to do a job not attract attention, exhibit your sexual confidence. That's it.

I love my body; I love all bodies. I love women and men alike. Where did I say I have a low opinion of women or the female form?

And to answer your question..."Why do you assume that because I also take pride in my body that it is the only thing there is?"

I don't believe I did. Can you point out that statement and I will try to clarify?

Your statement: "Being a woman isn't just about being sexy, but you have placed so much emphasis on enhancing your physical sexual attractiveness."

To clarify: you have nothing to base this statement on. Not a single thing. I discuss physical sexual attractiveness because it was part of the topic of the thread.

And, again, hopefully for the very last time: WORK DRESS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONVERSATION. WORK DRESS CODES ARE SET BY THE BUSINESSES AND AS LONG AS THEY ARE ABIDED BY, EVERYONE IS COOL. THE WOMAN ON THE BUS WAS NOT AT WORK, SHE WAS ON A BUS. WHEN I SHOW CLEAVAGE I AM NOT AT WORK. NOBODY HAS EVER SAID CLEAVAGE WAS A NECESSARY PART OF WORK DRESS. So can we drop the damned work red herring and get on with the actual conversation?

The whole point of my previous post was that I was tired of hearing you restate yourself. I'd like to hear you actually respond to some things that have been brought up instead. If I wanted to hear your initial position again, I'd go back and read those posts.

And you didn't say you have a low opinion of the female form. I said you show a low opinion of females, because you've as much as said that by taking pride in and enjoying the beauty of my breasts, by not hiding those things I take pride in from the world, I'm showing insecurity. The fact that you cannot reconcile self-confidence with love of body and the ability to be open about that body indicates a low opinion of women.

Showing off your beauty does not make you insecure. It does not make you a tool of the patriarchy. It does not make you damaged, or lesser in any way. To indicate that you believe such is to show a low opinion of women, to believe that we cannot incorporate our physical beauty, our pride in it, and our delight in showing it with ourselves as people.

Kimmy,

That comment was in reference to your cleavage enhancing manual in the post before. It was a bad generalization. My bad.

"Showing off your beauty does not make you insecure."
It doesn't make people insecure. It can be a sign of insecurity.

"It does not make you a tool of the patriarchy."
It can and does reinforce patriarchal perceptions of women.

"It does not make you damaged, or lesser in any way.

I agree, and never said such a thing.

"To indicate that you believe such is to show a low opinion of women, to believe that we cannot incorporate our physical beauty, our pride in it, and our delight in showing it with ourselves as people."

I have a high opinion of women. I believe excessive cleavage to try to convey beauty (sexuality, attract attention, whatever it is) is an objectification of our bodies in this society--which is a subjective opinion, just as your support of cleavage is subjective. We differ on opinion here and there's no changing that. Our bodies are beautiful, cleavage or no cleavage. I never said cleavage made women damaged, less, or anything else beyond objectified and you can't jump to conclusions based on that.

I think my posts went off topic as I was trying to address other things mentioned in this thread. As for the woman on the bus, the driver is out of line, obvs. I am not blaming her for this.

To all, sorry for hijacking this thread!

Kimmy,

That comment was in reference to your cleavage enhancing manual in the post before. It was a bad generalization. My bad.

"Showing off your beauty does not make you insecure."
It doesn't make people insecure. It can be a sign of insecurity.

"It does not make you a tool of the patriarchy."
It can and does reinforce patriarchal perceptions of women.

"It does not make you damaged, or lesser in any way.

I agree, and never said such a thing.

"To indicate that you believe such is to show a low opinion of women, to believe that we cannot incorporate our physical beauty, our pride in it, and our delight in showing it with ourselves as people."

I have a high opinion of women. I believe excessive cleavage to try to convey beauty (sexuality, attract attention, whatever it is) is an objectification of our bodies in this society--which is a subjective opinion, just as your support of cleavage is subjective. We differ on opinion here and there's no changing that. Our bodies are beautiful, cleavage or no cleavage. I never said cleavage made women damaged, less, or anything else beyond objectified and you can't jump to conclusions based on that.

I think my posts went off topic as I was trying to address other things mentioned in this thread. As for the woman on the bus, the driver is out of line, obvs. I am not blaming her for this.

To all, sorry for hijacking this thread!

Kimmy,

That comment was in reference to your cleavage enhancing manual in the post before. It was a bad generalization. My bad.

"Showing off your beauty does not make you insecure."
It doesn't make people insecure. It can be a sign of insecurity.

"It does not make you a tool of the patriarchy."
It can and does reinforce patriarchal perceptions of women.

"It does not make you damaged, or lesser in any way.

I agree, and never said such a thing.

"To indicate that you believe such is to show a low opinion of women, to believe that we cannot incorporate our physical beauty, our pride in it, and our delight in showing it with ourselves as people."

I have a high opinion of women. I believe excessive cleavage to try to convey beauty (sexuality, attract attention, whatever it is) is an objectification of our bodies in this society--which is a subjective opinion, just as your support of cleavage is subjective. We differ on opinion here and there's no changing that. Our bodies are beautiful, cleavage or no cleavage. I never said cleavage made women damaged, less, or anything else beyond objectified and you can't jump to conclusions based on that.

I think my posts went off topic as I was trying to address other things mentioned in this thread. As for the woman on the bus, the driver is out of line, obvs. I am not blaming her for this.

To all, sorry for hijacking this thread!