An extremely powerful and insightful post once again, Samhita.

I have many friends who's parents didn't teach them their native language upon immigrating to the United States with fear they would be discriminated against

I live near Philly. My familiy happens to know Joey Vento personally and very well, and he is a good man. He has NEVER turned someone away because they couldn't say 'cheesesteak'. Also, you can't even translate 'cheesesteak' to my knowladge, so no matter if you are Spanish, Polish, or Indian, the word will still be the same: 'cheesesteak'.

Also, Joey Vento has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for the citizens of Philadelphia, including those citizens of different ethnic backgrounds, regardless of if they can speak English. As an example, the campaign that he launched after September 11 benifented many Americans, no matter what their background is, and he did that all out of his own pocket and his buisness. He took no profit out of that, there was no cut. 100% went.

Have you ever been to Geno's? I go there all the time. It's called a marketing ploy; everyone knows what Geno's is now. Not only is it the best cheessteak in Philly, but this whole sticker buisness (which is about the size of a bumper sticker) got him on the map even more.

So next time you're in Philly, stop down to Geno's and order in Polish. He'll still give you a cheesesteak.

That's total bullocks.

I was born in the States to ordinary "American" parents, but when my grandfather moved here he cut out all his ties to Italian unless he was talking to his aunt, and my father always regretted that he and his brother were never taught Italian.

I also work in a Chinese restaurant, and my boss and his family are pretty much like a second family to me--their children are being raised to call me "sister" in Chinese, for Christ's sake. There are *so* many people--especially teenage boys in this godawful Hickstown--who think it's terribly witty to prank call us and speak in mock-Chinese or ask about us serving cats. I usually tell them to fuck off. The worst part is that my boss is so worried about his daughter being made fun of that half of my job is now teaching his daughter to speak English so that she won't "be behind" when she gets to Kindergarten. Nevermind that she speaks very good Chinese and is, by academic standards, developmentally ahead of other three year olds in her native language. No one will take her seriously if she can't speak and count in English.

She's picking up English very quickly. I just hope she still retains her Chinese and that her "sister" doesn't override her previous cultural ties to the country she was born in.

Muki - you've obviously never been to France or Qebec. They will tell you in no uncertain terms that French is what you need to speak if you wish to speak to them. (Unless you're at an Irish pub.)

Interestingly, the U.S. is one of the few countries in the world that does not have an official language. (Even though American English is now the lingua franca). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_languages.

But to suppose that people in an English speaking country are racist because they expect people who live here to speak Enlish is non-sense (or else it means that you don't know what the word racist means). Indeed, doesn't the failure of people to adequately learn their host country's language demonstrates its own xenophobia to the host culture as well as a disrespect. (When you travel, I trust you know at least how to say, please and thank you in the host countries language; and if you lived abroad in a non-English speaking country, I doubt you'd think it racist if the locals had trouble communicating with you because you didn't know the local language).

Now I have no idea what "other communication styles" could possibly mean, it if means anything at all. But I assume that references to things like "alternative forms of English" refers to such things like ebonics. Of course, why permitting youngsters to sound ignorant isn't itself racism is beyond me. (The soft-bigotry of low expectations, as we on the right like to say). And if the point of using English properly is -- as you say -- power, then not insisting that people learn to speak proper English, and educating them as such, disempowers and disenfranchises them.

Regards from NY,
Ed
(Have a great 4th!)

While I'm sure that Joey Vento has many wonderful qualities, he's still a racist. Similarly, my grandfather had many wonderful qualities while still being a racist. It's not inappropriate to point these sorts of things out.

(And does anybody believe for a second believe that Joey Vento has had a problem with people trying to use the Spanish, French, or Arabic word for "cheesesteak" and then getting angry when he couldn't understand them? Really?)

I think my favorite part of this whole story was that, last summer, the Associated Press had a photo of Geno's, complete with a sign that read "This is America: When Ordering 'Speak English' [sic]." That's right-- this defender of linguistic purity doesn't know how to use punctuation. I'm not normally a grammar snob, but if you're going to try to mask your own racism with some holier-than-thou attitude about the sanctity of the English language, you should damn well make sure you know the rules of usage.

Bradley-- This IS America. If you can't say the word 'cheesesteak', then there is a problem. If you live in France, speak French. If you live in Spain, speak Spanish. If you live in America, speak English.

You can speak whatever other language you want, but if you don't know English and you live in an English speaking country, then why blame the people who actually speak the language? When in Rome, do as the Romans.

OOOh, racism as publicity. Yeah, that's it. *eye roll*

What languages were people trying to order in, anyway? I've worked in customer service for a LONG time, and I really can't remember anyone trying to speak to me in a language other than English. I've been asked if I speak that language, I've been spoken to in broken English, and I've communicated through gestures, but I've never encountered someone who just stands there in talks to me in a language other than English. Does this really happen? How often?

Samhita, you're absolutely right - people see accents before they hear them. There was an experiment done where people looked at a picture of a face, one group looked at a white face and one at an Asian face. Both groups listened to the same recording and were told it was recorded by the person whose face they were looking at. The people looking at the Asian face said they couldn't understand, the people looking at the white face said they could understand. This is where the racism comes in, cracksmoker.

I also think it's interesting to note that the Native American languages have been or are in the process of being wiped out and replaced with English, French, and Spanish. Not exactly fair if you play by the rules of "speak the language of the land."

I understand that people do need to communicate effectively, though, and the lingua franca here is English. That's fine, but people should be more considerate about it. Many Americans get outraged at the idea of people having access to things in Spanish even when it won't make it any harder for people to have access to English. It's ridiculous. English is becoming a truly global language, and it's endangering a lot of other languages in the process. The least we can do as the privileged ones who speak English natively is to appreciate other languages and make room for them when it's practical to do so. Instead, people expect everyone here and abroad to speak English, requiring others to learn it as a foreign language but refusing to learn one themselves.

Finally, a word about Ebonics. I prefer to call it AAVE for African American Vernacular English, and there are other names for it as well. The problem with people speaking AAVE is not that they sound ignorant but that people who actually are ignorant about linguistics think that people who speak it are lazy and dumb. I assure you that any legitimate linguist would say that AAVE is as good of a language as Latin. The language that becomes standard and considered "proper" is the language that the people in power speak. It has nothing to do with the actual characteristics of the language or dialect. It does have something to do with racism, and classism as well. The people who speak AAVE shouldn't have to change, although, for now, they have to learn the standard in order to achieve a certain level of success. But what really ought to change is our perception of AAVE, as well as other languages/dialects/accents.

The very fear of being unable to assimilate is one reason why only a handful of my cousins on mom's side of the family are even conversant in Mandarin Chinese. While I was fortunate in having parents who insisted on speaking Mandarin at home, this fear and economic circumstances were such that I never learned to read or write Chinese until college.

During my college years, I have found myself confronted by White "Americans" who yelled at me for conversing in Mandarin with my classmates and demanding that we "learn the damn language". It was amusing to see them taken aback when I instantly switched into English and told them "It's a free country and I'll use whatever language I damn well please so f*&k off!!" That usually gets these "native" Americans off my back.

It's also laughable for so many Americans to lecture immigrants on learning the language when so many native-born "educated" Americans have atrociously poor English skills. I've lost count of native-born classmates I've encountered who could barely piece together a coherent paragraph, much less an entire essay. A decent number of those classmates went to "prestigious" private high schools such as Milton and Phillip Exeter.

In short, Americans should fix their own English education programs in their K-12 first before lecturing immigrants on their poor English skills.

Alannaknightess-- I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean in your first sentence. If I'm not mistaken, though, you're trying to claim that there are people who go to a cheesesteak place unable to say "cheesesteak." And I'm saying I find that hard to believe-- I think this sign is just an attempt to be snide to foreigners.

As far as people who don't speak English "blaming" English-speakers for things... Sorry. I've never seen that. I think it's far more common for racist Americans to complain about things like bilingual education or options like "Press Two for Spanish."

Samhita, thank you for once again saying such important things so eloquently.

In answer to the question, in all my travels (even to France and Quebec), I have never felt discrimination because of the language I speak, and I've certainly never been treated with the distain that English-learners in this country experience every day. I do understand that it's a great disadvantage not to speak English in the US, but I can't help but notice that those who are generally advocating English as a national language for all the arguments posted above tend to be the same people who say things like "I was on the bus today, and I didn't hear ONE WORD of English!" or "Why do they come to this country and fly their OWN flag???"

“Instead, people expect everyone here and abroad to speak English, requiring others to learn it as a foreign language but refusing to learn one themselves.�

I know. I have both seen and heard of American tourists in other countries who think people understand them if they just speak English really really loud.

I work at Dell Computers. Our tech support for home users is entirely based in India or South America. And every time I get a home user on the phone, before I hand them over to a technician, they say, "and I want someone who speaks ENGLISH!"

My response: All of Dell's technicians speak English. Sometimes, you just have to try to hear it. Please hold while I transfer you.

And alot of times, they just hang up.

I think the variety of ways English is spoken, including all the accents of English-as-a-second-language speakers, is one of it's amazing strengths. When I stayed with family friends in Switzerland, they were always asking me to "correct" their English grammar and pronunciation. When their daughter came to stay with us as an exchange student, she was always apologizing for her "poor" English . . . it was hard to explain that, with many English words, there is not a single "right" way to say them. English is always changing! This was hard for people used to learning languages in school for which there are extremely rigid rules (i.e. French, high German, Swiss German).

I work in retail, and sometimes when helping customers (some foreign-born, some not!) I have to ask people to repeat themselves several times before I understand what they are asking for. This can be embarrassing or frustrating for me, but I always think of it as my OWN failure as a listener, rather than the failure of the speaker to communicate. And always, with enough persistence, we are able to sort things out. I usually try to remember that humor and patience are the best tools in such situations. Anger and xenophobia are counter-productive (as well as simply mean-spirited).

In my experience, its not difficult to understand your own language, regardless of whether its spoken with an accent or not. One of my teachers at the College I go to has a thick accent, but I understand him perfectly. Mainly because he speaks so well, and I listen to what he says carefully. Id say that most of the time, problems occur because of prejudice, or simply a lack of listening skills, as its already been pointed out here nicely. However, I cant fathom why anyone would want to live in a country where they cant speak the language. Being bilingual and using it is fine by me, as long as you dont make it blatantly obvious your talking about someone close by, yet in a different language. But I certainly believe that not all problems surrounding different languages are caused by native speakers, at least from my own experiences.

It’s not simple to say “In America, speak English,� as if there is one thing called English. There are many Englishes, and those have different social value and meaning. It is something very akin to racism to insist that oppressed people should speak the language of the oppressor. Will that get them ahead? Maybe. Of course it’ll be “better� for the dominant culture if they would “just try� to be like them. Should they have access? 100 percent. But suggesting that this is a matter of standards, academic or otherwise, instead of dialects, is just ignorant and perhaps racist. People who say “I be� don’t speak English worse than you do, they speak a standard dialect (which is encoded just the same way in their mind, and has just the same level of internal structure and sense and “logic�) that doesn’t have the same social meaning. Suggesting that they are worse, less a part of American society, which is a message that they hear all the time in a million different ways? Way to join the culture of oppression.

An interesting note - of all the Indians I've met (and I've met more than a few) I have never met one who couldn't speak fluent English. In fact, I used to date a man from India who claimed to speak better English than Hindi. Since English is one of the major languages in India, I can't believe some people actually don't speak Indian professionals don't speak good English... since the overwhelming majority of these people have been speaking English their entire lives.

On the other hand, I've never encountered anyone who was "expected" to speak English other than in like, a retail transaction. I've never heard anyone butt in on casual conversations and tell people to speak English. I've never seen anyone try to order a meal in a language that wouldn't obviously be understood by the server. I guess I'm pretty much just wondering where all of these stubborn immigrants who refuse to speak English are, and I'm also wondering where all of these racist Americans who expect the world to speak English are, too.

as a sidenote - I think it's one thing to travel to a non-English speaking country and expect everyone to speak English, but I think it's quite another to be in the United States and expect to converse with strangers in English.

1.Commenters who use the terms "proper" or "correct" about language show their ignorance. There is standard and their are dialects in every language. Ignorance has little to do with your dialect.

2.The US policy of not teaching children foreign languages when they are young and can acquire rather than learn them is purposeful. Someone enlighten me as to its purporse.

3. When I was in Italy, the Italians spoke English to their customers because it made them money (and because they are better educated than Americans including foreign language). If people on the right believe in free markets, then they cannot also believe in English only. Sorry guys - it doesn't work.

Yes, Americans. Having to listen to others, care for others. God. What's the world coming to?

oops "their" should be "there"

How's that for performance of non-standard English?

You have a lot of very good points, Samhita, and as always it was a pleasure to read.

But the following statement, while probably true on a large scale, isn't at all what my case is.
"The "English-only" sentiment isn't so we can all get along and communicate. It is to let people know who is in charge."
Now, like I said, I don't doubt that for your average racist American, it IS about who's in charge. But I really do wish I could just communicate with people. Half the people I work with speak Spanish and broken or no English. I can't speak Spanish very well. It makes it extremely difficult to communicate about things that need to be done. Some of my co-workers are really very nice people, and we speak in broken English and broken Spanish back and forth, gesture, smile a lot, and try to laugh about it. I'll teach them new words and ask them how to say things in their language. Some of my other co-workers get ANNOYED at me when I try to use their language, even though they won't understand anything if I say it in English. Maybe I'm just catching some bitchy people at bad times or something.

Now, of COURSE I'm all for bilingual warnings, notices, etc. The more people who can understand those things, the better. And I'd never expect or want people to have impeccable English, and I really don't mind trying to figure things out--I really love language and how people learn it, and I think the guessing game can be fun and educational. But when you live in a country where MOST people speak the same certain language when you leave the house, it's not RIDICULOUS to think that they might try and learn a few phrases when they go shopping. Not only would it make life easier for customer service people, but it would make it easier for them too.

I mean, if I moved somewhere where everyone was speaking a language that wasn't the one I knew, you bet I would try my hardest to learn it and use it. It's just common sense.

[And in regards to other people being all grouchy when you can't speak their language, both my father (who minored in French literature) and myself have had French people be rude when we couldn't speak perfect French, even though we were attempting--and getting our words and sentences right, even if the pronunciation wasn't exact.]

mirm- as to why kids in the US (and other English-speaking countries, for that matter) aren't taught another language as aggressively as English is taught in non-English speaking countries, I have a few thoughts.

I've always thought that where English is taught in other countries, it's mostly seen as a language of opportunity rather than a luxury. English has (like it or not) become the de facto international language, since, on the international level, most business and political decisions are carried out in English. English is more likely to be used in their professional lives, simply because of English's status on the international level.

In Canada, French is learned because it's the primary language of an entire province. In the United States, English is (at least for now) the primary language of all fifty states.

Learning a foreign language in the United States is a luxury rather than a necessity because, unless we plan on spending time in a place that speaks a different language, we aren't as likely to use it. If I want to move to France someday, I'd learn French. But it's harder to pinpoint these things in the United States - we assume that most citizens will live their lives in the country (as most citizens of any country do) and the ones who choose to leave will make the necessary preparations by learning the language(s) of the nation they've chosen to live.

Comparing foreign language instruction in the United States and other English-speaking countries to that of non-English speaking countries is like comparing apples to oranges.

Strangely enough, in most other countries, the locals often don't speak your language, and expect you to communicate in theirs.

Which countries are you referring to, Lee? This can't be said for many European countries, where citizens are expected to know several "official languages."

Jeska - I would agree that Europeans learn other languages because they closely border countries with other languages. Of course, Europeans traditionally learned Latin and Greek to be thought educated.

Yet, this no teaching foreign language policy was in place long before the U.S. was a super-power, and we *do* have bordering countries, where other languages are spoken. Perhaps it is the natural fallout from British imperialism (and subsequent American imperialism).

In the 70s and 80s many business degrees required foreign language and culture classes. I also have friends teaching their young children Chinese.

A large part of my job is working with recent immigrants, and I've always wondered where all these hordes of non-English speakers are, because I sure don't encounter them. And of the few non-English speakers I work with, they're usually VERY newly arrived to the US (often refugees) and you can see their progress in learning English within just a month or two -- it's soooo exciting! Like Samhita, I kind of get the idea that the people who whine about how all these "damned immigrants" don't speak English are actually referring to the fact that, well, most immigrants have an accent when they speak English, and your average racist can't be bothered to listen to somebody with an accent.

Also, has anybody else noticed that the people who are the most militant about this whole "English only" thing are the ones who have never become proficient in a foreign language themselves? They expect people to speak English perfectly, right away and without an accent, because they have no idea what it's like to learn a foreign language. (Although interestingly enough, even though they seem to think learning another language is so bloody easy, you don't see them doing it themselves...Funny how that works.)

This seems like a fairly simple matter.

It is easier for everyone to learn one language than for one person to learn 5-15 languages. Encouraging everyone to learn one given language is desirable to facilitate communication.

Obviously in large cities there are pockets where some people never learn English. This harms their ability to communicate with the majority of individuals in the country.

Of course some people might view lack of english as undesirable simply because it is an ethnic marker. But there are real consequences to not being able to communicate with fellow Americans - the ability to communicate with your neighbor seems like one of the most critical skills to have.

Well, it's getting a lot better - I graduated from a high school in 2005, where you needed to take at least one year of a foreign language in order to graduate. (My school only offered French and Spanish, and the Spanish department was one of the largest in the entire school. Since I went to a public high school in rural Michigan, I expect that this is pretty much the norm nowadays.

My family (who don't speak a word of any language other than English) are pretty upset over my decision to study French and Hindi in college rather than Spanish, and they're your run-of-the-mill "racist" Americans.

As I said before, in the U.S., if you're preparing for a career where you're likely to speak another language, you are trained in said language. I'm in an international studies program right now for my B.A., and in order to get it I need (at least) sixteen credits of a single language. Since the need for me to use Spanish on a daily basis isn't likely for me to arise in the future, I don't really need to learn it right now. In the United States, it's much harder to determine which language will be a "language of opportunity", and Spanish isn't likely to become mine. (Mandarin, Japanese, or a Dravidian language is another story.)

It is the fallout from British imperialism - but unfortunately, that's the way history worked out. It's not hard to imagine an alternate history where France, or China, or any other country you can imagine would have become the "international superpower". Unfortunately, British imperialism did happen, and the widespread use of English on the international level is one of the side effects.

Well, it's getting a lot better - I graduated from a high school in 2005, where you needed to take at least one year of a foreign language in order to graduate. (My school only offered French and Spanish, and the Spanish department was one of the largest in the entire school. Since I went to a public high school in rural Michigan, I expect that this is pretty much the norm nowadays.

My family (who don't speak a word of any language other than English) are pretty upset over my decision to study French and Hindi in college rather than Spanish, and they're your run-of-the-mill "racist" Americans.

As I said before, in the U.S., if you're preparing for a career where you're likely to speak another language, you are trained in said language. I'm in an international studies program right now for my B.A., and in order to get it I need (at least) sixteen credits of a single language. Since the need for me to use Spanish on a daily basis isn't likely for me to arise in the future, I don't really need to learn it right now. In the United States, it's much harder to determine which language will be a "language of opportunity", and Spanish isn't likely to become mine. (Mandarin, Japanese, or a Dravidian language is another story.)

It is the fallout from British imperialism - but unfortunately, that's the way history worked out. It's not hard to imagine an alternate history where France, or China, or any other country you can imagine would have become the "international superpower". Unfortunately, British imperialism did happen, and the widespread use of English on the international level is one of the side effects.

also, regarding Greek and Latin - those languages previously held the same status as "languages of opportunity" as English holds today.

You could argue that in non-English speaking countries, you learn English in order to be thought educated. Just playing devil's advocate, of course.

This topic is so painful for me. My parents didn't even mean to come to America, Idi Amin just went on a killing spree and kicked the Indians out. My father's older brother was already settled in the midwest and my Swahili-Gujarati-Hindi-German-English speaking Dad just joined him simply because he was available.

They raised me to speak in Gujarati and expected I'd pick up on English in school. In 1990, when I was only 4 years old and in kindergarten, I was beaten up between classes, kicked on the playground, and actually slapped by a teacher for having a thick accent and slowly spoken English.

And yes, I did what all the snide comments and signs and thinly veiled racist moms in my neighborhood suggested I do: learn English. Then I went on to win literary awards in my area. I do respect the fact that you should learn the major language of the country, but I've often thought to myself it would be more respectful if I learned Cherokee.

All of this reminds me of a time when an American family friend came to India with my family. She blew up at a street vendor in *India* and demanded he speak *English* because she couldn't understand the prices on his tapestries rather than ask one of us to translate. What. The. Fuck.

I don't understand why people don't embrace diversity, especially in a country that tries so hard to emphasize how it "embraces" diversity. I think it's interesting that in most countries in Europe people are biligual, at least! Why are Americans so lazy and close minded and unable to try and learn even small pieces of another language!? English as America's official language isn't an excuse to limit your knowledge and be ignorant. It doens't hurt anyone to get off their ass and learn some other language. Those people are missing out. I speak French and some German, not fluently at all, but it's amazing when you recognize what people are saying when the language is actually spoken. I think expanding knowledge and embracing other cultures (especially languages) is an amazing thing, and it's those who choose not to expand their own knowledge who are at loss. But don't get me wrong, I believe people in America should learn English, but we as Americans should not make assumptions or act harsh by any means if someone here is not a native english speaker and/or has a thick accent.

“and I'm also wondering where all of these racist Americans who expect the world to speak English are, too.�

Jeska, I have certainly met those Americans. Though they are not necessarily always racist, they most definitely are ignorant. Here are a couple of example I recall:

1- My mother who does not live in this country, is a physician. Even though she can read in English and usually studies medical literature in English, speaking is a whole different matter. Anyone who has had to learn a foreign language can tell you that. My mom speaks very limited English. Some people here assume that she is not literate, because “How can she be doctor w/o speaking English�?

2- I was listening to a conversation between two women where one was describing to the other how she or someone had gotten in an accident with this East-Asian guy who turned out had an international driver’s license and didn’t speak English. The other woman asked “How can day be allowed to drive if they can’t speak English?�

3- One time entering the US on a visa, I met this woman on the plane who didn’t speak English beyond a few words and I was helping her when getting through customs and immigration. She was an elementary school teacher back home. The INS officer asked “What kind of teacher doesn’t speak English?�. I would’ve really liked to say “What other foreign language do you speak dickhead?� Of course I didn’t.

pizza, cheesesteak - same thing.

isn't this story a few months old, now?

I don't understand. Was Joe getting a lot of people demanding that he learn the Spanish word for cheesesteak? Were people actually leaving his business in a huff because he wouldn't say cheesesteak in Mandarin Chinese?

Because, I can't imagine that you'd have to tell someone in America that they have to order in English. I can't imagine that there are a whole lot of people walking around America thinking that they're going to get served at a Philly cheesesteak stand in Hindi.

I'm an English-speaker (Canadian) and I find a great majority of Americans have what I would call a discernable and sometimes difficult to understand accent when they speak English. Be that as it may, I've never felt compelled to tell Americans to pronounce their vowels correctly when they're in Canada. If they want to say 'ruf' instead of 'rOOf' and 'sary' instead of 'sOrry,' I'm willing to accomodate them.

Antahkarana - I'm very sorry for your experience. I can't imagine what that must have been like, and the expectations of your parents were perfectly reasonable. Many of my American-born Indian friends say that they wish their parents would've taught them Indian languages in addition to English. But really, there's no excuse for your treatment.

On a different note, Native American languages are vastly different, and Cherokee is similar to Hindi in the sense that it's not really a "native" language throughout the country. Where I'm from, in the Great Lakes region, native tribes spoke Anishinaabe. Cherokee wouldn't be understood by them, or most of the Native Americans in North America, for that matter.

Language is strongly tied to identity, both one's sense of self, and one's place within the wider culture. Having respect for other people's language backgrounds is just as important as respecting their cultures and religions. Creating an environment that is hostile toward people who express themselves in either a non-official language or non-standard variety of the official language is blatant discrimination.
Linguistic oppression, like religious persecution has been used throughout history to control and subjugate others. Linguistic imperialism erodes cultures, too. One langauge disappears every 2 weeks.

We use language with the intent to communicate. I doubt that anyone *expects* to be understood when they are speaking in a language that is not prevalent in a particular region (like trying to order a cheesesteak in Philly in Mandarin), but I also don't think that people should expect to be berated if they don't speak the dominant language (well). Arguably, and I got this sense from Samhita's post, the discrimination is less against people who don't speak English, and more against those who do, just poorly. After all, a person who doesn't speak English (or a European language) would have a pretty hard time reading Joey's sign. This reminds me of the hilarious "Fat Fighters" sketches in "Little Britain" where the group leader claims not to understand an Indian woman and keeps telling her, "in English, please," when the woman is clearly speaking English, and quite well, only with an Indian accent.

Yes, it's important to be able to communicate in the dominant language. Yes, it leads to better employment opportunities, etc. I don't think people don't know that. But ordering a cheesesteak is NOT the same as walking into a job interview or applying to a college. It's an every-day life situation where there's no need for formality. The buyer and vendor need only minimally understand each other in order to complete the transaction, and the buyer's language skills have no bearing on what they will do with the sandwich or how they will benefit from the sandwich. But I guess you just can't put up a sign that says "No blacks/spics/foreigners/etc. allowed" anymore, 'cause the PC Police will come and get you. Racism is racism. Period.

I left the US and currently live in a Spanish speaking country. When I am interacting with someone new, I always start off in Spanish as both a courtesy and the pragmatic acknowledgement that many people here simply do not speak English. If their English is better than my Spanish (not an uncommon situation) and they initiate a language switch, I am more than happy to follow, but only after at least making an effort to speak the language of the land. This seems to work pretty well for all involved. The problem in the US is that so few people bother to learn a second language.

Samhita - When I do speak Spanish and someone here cannot understand me, it is frustrating for everyone involved. I would never, however, scapegoat my shortcoming as racism on their part. [Does that make sense? My English can be pretty bad sometimes, too, even if it is my first language.]

soujourner - I see what you mean, but I think the underlying question is that, in the United States, people are expected to speak English. (I'm guessing that the accident in your second story was in the U.S.) Same goes with your mother. I have honestly never met anyone (and I've met quite a few racist and ignorant people) who expected people in non-English speaking countries to conduct their everyday lives in English.

And I believe pegging this as simply an American problem is pretty ignorant, too - France, Japan, the UK, and Australia all seem to have the same attitude as we do in the U.S.

To hell with Geno's anyway. Jim's on 4th and South has better steaks.

"“and I'm also wondering where all of these racist Americans who expect the world to speak English are, too.�"

Jeska,

I've spotted a few of them during my visit to China. They ranged from the time-worn "raise the volume so they can understand better" method to throwing a temper-tantrum at the flustered local person of the moment. Each time I witnessed such behaviors, I cringe in embarrassment that this "person" is a fellow American. I've heard more horrific stories of "Ugly American" behavior from my Chinese classmates and friends. Oh, if you could only hear the Mandarin-based conversations and jokes about how these American tourists expect everyone to "speak English" in China/Taiwan/Hong Kong.

But I don't think this a specifically American thing. I've had Japanese and German tourists get frustrated with me in New York City because I couldn't understand them. I think assholes are assholes, no matter where they're from, and I don't think any one nationality is any more inclined to be rude than another.

Jeska, It’s only idiotic to assume that someone who is a doctor/ teacher in another country should have to be fluent in English. Or that people should have to speak English to be allowed to drive. In the case of the accident the first woman responded with “well, we rent cars all the time when we travel in Europe and we don’t speak the languages�. No you shouldn’t be *expected* to speak English in the US. Presuming that you do and expecting it are two separate things. Do you *have* to learn Italian in order to go visit Italy?

I think you're misunderstanding me - I think having a basic vocabulary is necessary for visiting a foreign country, and no, I don't think you need known English in order to become a doctor or to teach is necessary. If you're teaching or practicing medicine in the U.S.? It's necessary, because our laws regarding licensing are conducted in English. Similarly, I wouldn't expect to be able to practice medicine in a non-English speaking country if my licensing was in a language I couldn't understand.

Fluency isn't necessary, and a vocabulary of about 30 words isn't hard at all when you're visiting a place that doesn't speak your primary language. So, to answer your question, yes - if I went to Italy, I would learn a few words in Italian. Similarly, if I went to Bangalore, I'd learn a bit of a Tamil, and if I went to Macau, I'd learn Cantonese. I think most travelers, regardless of nationality, would agree that speaking the language (even poorly) of the plurality isn't at all an unrealistic expectation.

Akkin Said:
..And every time I get a home user on the phone, before I hand them over to a technician, they say, "and I want someone who speaks ENGLISH!"

My response: All of Dell's technicians speak English. Sometimes, you just have to try to hear it. Please hold while I transfer you.
And alot of times, they just hang up.

I haven't read all the responses yet, but I would like to say that I do not think everyone requesting another CS person is racist. Saying it like THAT (above)is, but you're already on the phone, which makes it difficult to understand, plus accents you aren't familiar with..I signed up for a credit card and I honestly could not understand anything that man way saying. I honestly couldn't. He was a very polite Indian man..I just agreed to whatever he said because I felt it was rude to ask to speak to someone else. How do you politely say "I am sorry, I cannot understand you"?

I think we should be fair and note that sometimes is IS very difficult to understand people with very strong accents, and sometimes maybe over-the-cell-phone CS shouldn't be their department, especially when computers are involved. (Personally, if I have computer trouble, I need someone *right there* to help!) I do not feel this makes me racist.

However, I am certainly not defending rude people. I used to work with telephone surveys (we didn't sell anything) and there was a girl I worked with who is fluent in both Spanish and English. She has a *slight* Spanish accent but her (English) grammar was better than 90% of the people who worked there..she actually had some guy tell her "Put somebody on the phone who actually speaks ENGLISH!".
I am willing to bet that that bastard cannot speak more than 1 language, much less be fluent enough to fully converse with the number of people she can.

I am very glad that my family didn't deny me the right to speak Spanish and I learned as much Spanish as I learned English.
And that's the way it is in my family, all the children have to learn both languages because we see that having a second language is a priceless gift, even better if it's 3, 4, o5 even 5 languages.

I grew up in a place called Brawley California which is a small town and the main players are white farm owners. A lot of the Hispanic kids actually TRIED to blend in the white culture and DENIED knowing Spanish and DENIED their own culture.
I found it absurd and I was only a little kid.

Another case scenario is my boyfriend, from Brawley as well, whose parents immigrated to the US from Mexico when they were teenagers, about 15 years old or so.
Both his parents learned English and did the though tasks of working in the fields.
When they had their children, they spoke only English to them for the fear that they did not want them to lead the hard life they led, working backbreaking, low-paying jobs so teaching them Spanish was not an option.
So to this day, my boyrfriend and his siblings do not speak their native language and can't even communicate with their grandparents who speak Spanish only.
When I started dating him I was horrified for 2 reasons:

1) My bf's name is Jose Manuel Baeza and he didn't speak a word of spanish
and
2) How can he not communicate with his grandparents? Grandparents are ESSENTIAL! To a child's life!

But I guess we all have different traditions.
Right now the boyfriend is struggling to learn Spanish and I am teaching him.

...and of course my post has several grammatical errors! (it's too slow to do the preview and the post, sorry)

I also meant to not end the italics until after "they hang up".

Thank you for your compassion and the information, Jeska :)

And kannada is the more frequently used dialect in Bangalore...:D

Haha, goofy me - I was thinking of Chennai *sheepish*
I better get my languages straight before I head there next year!

have you ever experienced discrimination because of the language that you speak?

As a white monolingual English-speaking Australian, I have never experienced this discrimination. However, I have been expected to be complicit in it.

I used to work in a store at the local mall, that employed staff of many different nationalities and races. It was a requirement that everyone employed at the store speak good, clear English, in order to communicate with customers. There were many accents among us, but everyone spoke, clear, comprehensible English.

Nonetheless, I would STILL get white Australian customers coming up to me, and saying "It's nice to be served by someone who speaks English for a change." ALL my colleagues spoke English-- those comments were a thinly vieled way of saying "I like to be served by white people." At the time, I didn't speak up, though I wish I had now. However, when you need that job to pay the rent, calling customers out on implicit racism isn't the easiest thing to do. So perhaps I was complicit in it... :(

Great insightfullness Samhita!

My descendants are German, so I got the whole blonde hair blue eye thing going and grew up in the midwest. I was surprised when I moved south to North Carolina the discrimination towards me because my northern accent. I was just shocked! The minute I began to talk people would just walk away or interupt and ask me where I was from. My roommate absolutely hated it, so around her co-workers she would give herself a fake southern accent just so she could get through the day. It was absolutely ridiculous.

Now as a mother, I understand the importance of teaching my own child foreign languages. She is quickly learning German and Spanish, however, I worry when she gets to school she may be scolded if she speaks these languages. For example: if she responds "azul" instead of "blue" and gets in trouble, you know I will be a thorn in that administrations side. Teaching kids while there young is so much more beneficial then waiting til high school and requiring them to pass in order to graduate.

Sorry for the rant and many tangents, but I can totally understand your point.

I only got as far as this comment before having to reply:

"Muki - you've obviously never been to France or Qebec. They will tell you in no uncertain terms that French is what you need to speak if you wish to speak to them. (Unless you're at an Irish pub.)"

You know what's funny? In France people will make an effort to speak with you in English if they can, or a mix if they can't: once they know you're not American or English. If you were not American and got to travel watching Americans and how people treat you respectively, you would realise many people have no time for Americans until they prove themselves not to be jerks

Sadly, NZers, Australians and Britons share this tendancy to whinge about accents, whilst refusing to teach their children a second language in primary school

Constantly I read about people saying "if I moved I'd make an effort to intergrate" - what a LIE.

We form our own enclaves when we emmigrate. There are whole communities of NZers and Australians clinging together in England - and they speak English!

English speakers often learn to say all of three sentances when travelling yet roll their eyes at tourists with less than perfect English in their own countries. We not only expect not to have to learn the language when travelling, but for people in other countries to speak OUR language

Anyone who thinks English speakers (and particularly Americans) aren't incredibly hypocritical isn't paying enough attention

Dammit, I just realised I responded to cracksmoker. Oops. Oh well, point's still there LOL

Thank you for this post. I am a white woman who after years and years of study speaks Spanish. I have not faced discrimination, but I am married to a Mexican who has.

His English is fine, but the comments he gets about being Mexican! Let me tell you, this is not about "language" as you have so eloquently pointed out. This is about fear of the other. Being married to him has been a great source of joy for me, but has brought me into contact with such deep ugliness that exists in peoples' hearts. It makes me sick. And the whole immigration debate has made it even worse. I have heard people not only complain about language, but also suggest a forced sterilization "program" for all incoming immigrants.

A burning cross would be the cherry on top. Everything else but the cross is present. And the people who say this is not about racism YOU ARE LIARS!

1. More than 100 years after my great-grandma came to the U.S. from Sicily, the women in my family (inc. me) are still trying to learn the Italian language she refused to teach her daughters.

2. Dammit, if English is "what it means" to come to this country--if English is the only useful thing we can manage to produce around here--then hell, let's pack the place up and move on.

3. The is America. Speak whatever language you want.

I am Latina and my parents came from a Spanish speaking country. Believe me, even my grandparents learned English and adapted - and that's that we live in a part of Miami where you NEED to know Spanish to get practically any job. We have people from all sorts of cultures here who speak English with all sorts and different levels of accents. I hate to say it but the only people I've ever heard complain that English should be the "official language" by law were "white Americans." Even us second-generation Americans whose first language is English don't understand the issue with providing documents in other languages to accommodate. Although I will say that we have many people in the city who only speak Spanish due to the large Hispanic/Latino community and I have had to translate for strangers a number of times - this I have an issue with but I guess that's why Miami is considered part of Latin America in many ways.

Also, I agree that there is a level of racism (in most cases) when it comes to understanding someone's accent. I've had professors who I've had a helluva time trying to understand but I've also seen people being unnecessarily difficult to someone with a slight accent. Here's an example: when my Jewish Ukrainian friend started working as a secretary for an attorney with a lot of Jewish clients, one client complained that he couldn't understand her Ukrainian accent and always asked to speak with the paralegal instead. Once the paralegal mentioned that my friend was Jewish too, the client magically was able to suddenly understand her accent. My friend jokes that he must have thought "Of course, it's a *Jewish*-Ukrainian accent, I understand clearly now!" Tell me that's not racism.

I live close enough to Geno's to see the lights. Vento is an out-and-out rightwing Republican racist. And no, for all you apologists on here, he's not faced with people who are speaking at him in a million languages. He's faced with Hispanic immigrants who can read English well enough to know what they want, and they point to the item on the menu. He refuses to serve them unless they can verbalize it. Why? Because he's a racist asshole who hates Hispanics.

But! If they're Italians - we still have a lot of Italians around here - no problem! And if they have some kind of medical condition that prevents them from speaking, no problem! But if they speak Spanish, the answer is no. Get it NOW?

Some people pride themselves on being ignorant. No matter what native language someone speaks, they can say CHEESESTEAK - even with an accent and there is not a group of immigrants who came here without an accent or where the first generation of immigrants spoke better English than their offspring.

The problem is that people are just ignorant. I remember someone telling me about a professor from the UK (who, naturally, had a British accent) who received a comment in one of his student evaluations to "learn to speak English."

Now isn't that a hoot?

I am a Russian American and speak both Russian and English fluently. I have experienced all kinds of things, from people shouting at me on the street to speak English while hearing me converse with my mother, to telling me that I have no right to correct others' grammar mistakes because I wasn't born in the States. So, yes, there are assholes out there.

However, my comment is more about the immigration bill. My family waited for 5 years to get an interview at the American embassy. We got the refugee status and left within months. We did everything by the books. Now, the new bill proposes that millions of people that did NOTHING by the books deserve the same treatment as someone who patiently waited while risking their lives. I think that is totally unfair. Illegal is illegal any way you look at it and simply changing the status shows a total disregard for the immigration policies, for every person who has gone through hell to enter this country the RIGHT way. United States is a country, not a free for all. There are rules and regulations and they should be followed. Now, I know a lot of people who live here illegally and I wouldn't want them to get kicked out. However, I don't think that simply legalizing everyone is the answer either.

I think, for me, the biggest problem with the "this is america, learn to speak english" argument is that it is almost implicit in the phrase that one can just take a few classes or read a book and can thereafter speak english. It is not that easy to learn another language, and it is impossible to tell if someone who is speaking to you has started classes or is studying english. Perhaps they are in the beginning stages? Or maybe they did learn a lot of English in their home country-- sitting in a high school classroom talking about cats on tables does not mean you can move to a country and automatically start giving eloquent speeches.

I have taken french courses for over 12 years and there are still situations wherein I do not feel comfortable with my french, because the vocabulary is difficult, or simply because it is something I haven't done before so I am not completely sure what to say.

Interestingly, the U.S. is one of the few countries in the world that does not have an official language. (Even though American English is now the lingua franca). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_languages.

But to suppose that people in an English speaking country are racist because they expect people who live here to speak Enlish is non-sense (or else it means that you don't know what the word racist means). Indeed, doesn't the failure of people to adequately learn their host country's language demonstrates its own xenophobia to the host culture as well as a disrespect.

When other countries refer to their "official language", this is simply a legal term that refers to the language in which government business is conducted. In Germany, where the official language is German (apart from the Sorbian minority communities on the Polish border), even government forms and documents are not exclusively printed in German. Immigration forms, and other forms likely to be needed by foreigners, are often printed in English or Turkish as well.

The only thing worse than the xenophobia of the "English only" crowd is their historical ignorance. I find it hard to fathom how they could ever have got the idea that the US has ever been a monolinguistic country; it's simply not true. The US has been multilingual since its origins. Even apart from the indigenous languages, there has always been a great deal of linguistic diversity here. Seventy years ago, even in second-tier cities, the newsstands would be stocked with publications in at least two or three languages, and in larger cities such as New York, twenty or thirty languages was the norm. In Cincinnati, until the German-American population was driven out during the mass hysteria stoked by the Creel Commission, a knowledge of German was essential. Phone operators were required to know at least English and Hochdeutsch, prefeferably in addition to at least one German dialect. One might also mention the Gullah language and the French-speaking population that still exists in some parts of Louisiana.

(Not to mention the people who had been speaking Spanish in the western US for centuries before the US got the idea of taking the territory by force.)

This idea of the US being linguistically homogeneous seems to have coincided with the arrival of darker-complected immigrants. It certainly has no basis in US history or culture.

have you ever experienced discrimination because of the language that you speak?

I haven't experienced outright discrimination of the "Order in English" sort. I grew up trilingual (German, Spanish, English), in addition to several other languages I taught myself, so there is no trace in my English of the fact that Spanish and German sometimes flow much better for me. However, when talking in public with friends of mine in languages other than english — Spanish, especially — I have definitely been given the evil eye by quite a few strangers whose lives were apparently not as interesting as eavesdropping on people's conversations in languages they don't understand.

Because of my lifelong fascination and facility with languages, I try to counteract that tendency in my own way. I've found that nothing seems to bring as much of a smile to the face of a person living in a country where no one can pronounce her name as hearing her language spoken by someone who has no immediately apparent reason to speak it.

I remember one particular instance, a few years ago, in the suburb of Cincinnati where the more bigoted, rednecky white people seem to move when they get the money. I was at the supermarket till, paying for whatever it was I bought. The guy bagging the groceries was fiftyish, with a look of utter dispair on his face and Rastislav or some other classic Slavonic name on his name tag (which explains the despair on two counts: nobody probably even made an effort to pronounce his name properly, and he was most likely highly educated with a degree that wasn't worth kindling in the US, a common situation). Based on the name on his nametag, I smiled and asked him: Здравейте, ви Ñ?те българÑ?ки? (Hi, are you Bulgarian in Bulgarian). I think I must have made his day, judging from the way his face lit up as he responded in the affirmative and wondered aloud how it happened that I knew his language.

I love this debate, and I've been arguing it for years.

What Geno's did is unconscionable, not leastways because this is America, and Americans don't speak English. They speak some bastard American dialect, generally. America is this great trove of idiolects, and people keep trying to stamp that out because it would mean that the self-righteous sons-of-immigrants somehow lost their right to look down on the new immigrants.

I've been denied languages on both sides of my family.

German, on Mom's, because her 3rd generation German American family couldn't speak it out in public during WWI, and therefore made an effort not to speak it at home, either. She never learned it, although her two oldest siblings did. Three generations the family had been bilingual, before they had to give it up.

Cherokee, on Dad's, because Native languages were forbidden to school children, so his parents didn't learn it; and his aunts weren't even entered onto the rolls for fear they wouldn't find husbands if people didn't know they weren't 100% White.

Since I learn languages fairly easily, I'd have picked either or both up if the families had used them; our family was close to both sides.

As it is, I've learned a couple of languages other than English and bits of still others. But neither Cherokee nor German. Maybe someday.

I think that regardless of race, people make so many assumptions based on language. I'm from the South, and I remember learning to carefully eliminate my Southern accent when I was still in high school because I knew that the most common impression in response to a Southern accent was the assumption of ignorance. Given that I was not ignorant, I did not want to be perceived that way.

Fenriswolf, I see you have clearly nailed the point about we English speakers being ignorant hypocrites. Now how about the arrogance you sometimes get from people who dont speak English, or are bilingual, and flaunt this fact over you? I have on one or two occasions experienced this. Oh but wait, they couldnt possibly be in the wrong, because they arent ignorant English speakers. Give it a rest, and accept that experiencing hostility because of language isnt something solely limited to non-English speaking people.

The English as National Language and anti-bilingual education movements are racist, plain and simple. It doesn't matter whether or not other countries are intolerant about other languages, it's wrong of the US to be intolerant of other languages.

Personally, as a native and resident of New Mexico, I have the opposite pet-peeve: if you're going to live here, at least make the effort to learn acceptable-for-an-anglo Spanish pronunciation of place-names and the like. I had the misfortune to live in Texas for a number of years and had my fill of egregiously and blithely mispronounced Spanish place names.

Incidentally, even though I'm a native New Mexican, I don't speak Spanish. Nevertheless, I've never encountered any of the hostility or racism that other anglos have complained of from Hispanics in the small northern New Mexican towns and villages where families go back for four hundred or more years. I know I'm an outsider, I don't expect people to conform to me and my comforts. Nevertheless, they generally do...possibly because I don't expect it of them.

And while some of these villagers may not speak the best English even though they've been Americans for seven generations, and they may go weeks going about their business and never speaking a word in English, they are no less American than I am, and often they're more patriotic than I am. For me, growing up in this cultural climate and this state where, until recently, anglos were the minority, the idea that to be a "real" American you have to be fluent in English and live like the Cleavers and perhaps bleach your skin is so offensive as to turn my stomach.

“My descendants are German, so I got the whole blonde hair blue eye thing going and grew up in the midwest.�

I think you meant "ancestors" and not "descendents". :)

"I have many friends who's parents didn't teach them their native language upon immigrating to the United States with fear they would be discriminated against"

That's why mom didn't teach me Farsi when I was a baby but waited until I was 11 or so to try to teach it to me with 2-hour lectures. She was afraid that if I babbled in Farsi in public people would instantly know we're Iranian (as if Farsi is so famous in the U.S. that most people recognize it when they hear it).<