Hm. I guess I must have missed the big white wedding scene in the movie. Because while Ben does propose to Allison, she refuses (quite rightly) noting that just because one is pregnant doesn't mean that one needs to be married.

The movie has its issues, and yes the reason for keeping the baby could have been explored better, but I felt the relationship was dealt with very realistically. They had their ups and their downs...just like everyone else, no matter the relative attractiveness of both parties (because yes, Seth Rogen is adorable)

I saw it three weeks ago, and the jury is still out. I didn't like how it demonized abortion, and holds up her fetus as "life", but I did like how it made unmarried pregnancy look like less of a big deal, and it did cover the idea that the main character, a female, could totally raise a kid on her own. It confronted issues about unmarried pregnancy and debunked some of the myths. At the same time, I think it distributed a false ideal towards what really happens with one-night-stands. How many women really fall in love with the man (who would happen to get her pregnant) they slept with one night after celibrating a promotion?

It went places I liked, and it went places I hated. Actually, I really disliked how the main character's sister is played out like some crazy bitch just for being married and older.

However, I must agree with Jessica. I would totally bang Seth Rogen (but I would make him use a condom).

I love Pollitt, but I think she's a bit harsh on Knocked Up. After Allison ends things with Ben, he makes an affirmative and independent effort to grow the fuck up and be worthy of trying to parent the child. To ignore his attempt at soul-searching and growth and act like he was seeking a mommy figure I think glosses over what is one of the better messages of the movie -- that men need to change on their own for women to take them seriously.

Plus, at the end, they're romantically involved, but it's still not clear things will work out. I know it's something of a Hollywood ending, and people who want to read a politicized, family-values message into that may do so, but I think that's a personal bias moreso than a must-read of the situation, which seemed more ambiguous to me.

Lastly, there is one element of the movie that I have seen discussed exactly nowhere -- when Allison is crowing in the birth scenes, she has no pubic hair whatsoever. It totally threw me off. I mean, I know Katherine Heigl is blonde, and I know she lives in LA, but the idea that she'd have time to get a Brazilian (or seriously give a shit about being hairless for birth) seemed totally stupid. Also seemed gutless on the part of Apatow, et al. I mean, they can show a crowning vulva but that vulva has to be bald? Yeesh. If they're going to show a woman doing something that only women can do, it seemed sad that they couldn't show a woman without denuding her and girl-i-fying her by denying her pubes. I suppose Apatow could just have a weird kink about waxing given the scene in 40YOV, so I could be reading too much into it, but it still surprised me.

Thank you, ekf! I thought exactly the same thing. The hairless vulva was utterly ridiculous and was certainly an example of lady bits qua * horrors *.

I also thought Pollitt's review was a bit harsh; Ben's transformation in the latter half of the film was significant. Imagining a way for man-boys to grow up is an important step for comedy to take. If I were a man, I think that I would be annoyed by the lack of options for men in comedies; you can be a man-boy or a player or a hen-pecked husband, but that's about it. By showing men in Ben and Pete who want to be good partners and fathers, even if they stumble occasionally and struggle with their changing identities, I thought that Knocked Up was sort of ... progressive.

The thing that annoyed me the most about the film, other than the lack of a plausible psychology for Allison's decision to keep the baby, was the shrewish older sister. Apatow just really doesn't understand women.

What constitutes being "worthy of trying to parent [a] child"?

Serial posting to say that I also found the characterization of Allison's mom as "ice cold," even by someone as determinedly pro-choice as Pollitt, strikes me as evidence as to how successful the right has been in denying rational discourse regarding abortion.

Why is her mother "ice cold"? Because she told her daughter to cherish her achievements in her career? Because she used pragmatic language in trying to reassure her daughter that she could still have a family later on in life, when she was ready and had a partner with which to do it?

I guess I just wonder what language the character could have used that would have convinced us as an audience that she was merely a caring mother and not an "ice cold" person -- while still advising her daughter to consider getting an abortion. We've been so inundated with right-wing mantras since before Roe to set forth an emotional landscape in which even considering one's lifestyle and capabilities to have a child is seen as calculating and selfish when it is, in fact, an act of compassion and common sense. Sad that it can't be recognized as such, even by people who support abortion rights.

FWIW, I didn't think the movie demonized abortion. Some people don't want to have them. Some people do make the decisions people like Ben and Allison do. I'm not bothered by the idea that a pregnant woman considers her fetus a "life" and wants to keep it -- so long as she is cool with someone else defining the situation differently (or at least maintaining a legal framework in which other people can make different choices). And, as a currently pregnant woman, I agree that a fetus at 8 weeks is alive, a "life" (had she said "a baby" or "a human life" I would have had more qualms, however). The choice question, IMO, is not whether a fetus is alive or not, but rather whether or not I want to continue to keep it alive through the use of my body.

I thought "Knocked Up" was alright, but I didnt' take it seriously as I don't think it was meant to be a political commentary. I didn't even think the demonized abortion like some people thought. The fact that they mentioned it at all goes far beyond most comedies, right? I think in reality we all know that pregnancy often gets anchors fired (just a few years ago such was the case in Columbus, GA when an, I believe, Fox affiliate suggested the reporter have an abortion, when she refused, they took her off air, I wish I knew the case name so I could refer to it and better explain the situation at hand there, but it was in like 2005, I believe).

I'm not sure where I was going with this (I think I need food), but, yeah, Seth Rogan is adorable. I've also got a little thing for both Paul Rudd and Jay Baruchel.

Hasn't that ship sailed already? It's made $110 million on a $30 million budget; did Judd Apatow fail to do something in the script that he loudly announced he would be accomplishing?

It's interesting that a lot of people blame Apatow for how the older sister came off as a harpy, since Leslie Mann (who played the sister) is Apatow's wife and he's said in interviews that some of the fights she has with Paul Rudd's character came straight out of Apatow and Mann's marriage. I saw it with my mom and she said that the fights were uncomfortable at times, because they were so close to fights she's had with my dad. I can see where she would appear shrewish, but I think the revelation Rudd's character has in Vegas shed a lot of light on why that couple fought so much. And it seemed, to me, towards the end of the movie that both of them had calmed down and were working together better. But, to each their own.

The most unrealistic thing about this movie, for me, was the treatment Allison got at her job. 3 months maternity leave? She didn't get taken aside by her boss till her 7th month? After they backhandedly told her to lose weight and she started gaining weight? I wish.

The movie's not perfect, but I think a lot of things about it are progressive. And I can sympathize with Allison, I'm pro-choice, but I don't think that I could have an abortion if the same situation happened to me. Friends of mine have, and I think it's an option that should be available to all women, but I don't think it's one I'd take advantage of. But that's why it's Pro-CHOICE, not pro-abortion ; )

While I havent seen this movie, judging from the trailer I saw at the cinema and the thoughts about it here, I could never bother with such a movie anyway. I do agree somewhat with Norbiziness though, good messages or bad, someone is still laughing all the way to the bank.

Still, with the responsibilities the film sets up for this guy aside, I got mixed feelings about the whole "immaturity" thing. I didnt like the "immature men" feel, and also "men need to grow up" thing either. Perhaps its because I dont like to get involved with people, not even for careless flings, which Im quite content with. I guess thats why it affected me, because I normally couldnt give a sailing fuck if Im "immature" and that women wouldn’t take me seriously. Thats completely irrelevant though, so Ill shut up with that.

I guess I shouldnt go off on a rant about something I havent even seen. From my experience though, movies are rarely artistic works today, just more about what can reel in the most profit.

I think Seth Rogan is adorable. He's not necessarily my type (dark hair, tall, and brainy) but I think if I were single and I met someone like him and he made me laugh, I'd try it out.
He seems like a big brother type.

I don't get why everyone is so mad about Knocked Up; the women in it are real people, and they make a point of having Alison choose to keep the baby. Unless I hallucinated the scene in which she calls Ben up and tells him: "I have decided to keep the baby." That, to me, is how being pro-choice works: when a woman gets pregnant, she gets to choose whether or not she wants to keep the baby.

Also, given the dark picture of marriage painted by the movie, I certainly didn't walk away thinking "gee, everything will be great for them now, because raising kids is so easy!"

(Also, Pollitt actually gets the ending of Waitress kind of wrong, which makes it seem like she is criticizing a movie she hasn't seen, which is uncool.)

If I were a man, I think that I would be annoyed by the lack of options for men in comedies; you can be a man-boy or a player or a hen-pecked husband, but that's about it.

Good point. Although this is obviously guys' movie, and it follows the I-am-better-than-he inspirational logic. "If that loser could get a hot girl, I (someone who actually works and does not smoke pot) could get an even hotter one". If Seth Rogen played a billionaire hunk with a heart of gold, there would be no drama at all.

Pretty Woman and Ugly Betty are examples of girls' movies (series) that use the same logic.

I saw the movie and thought it was pretty good. Most comedies don't make me laugh these days (especially the men in drag comedies - enough already!). My problem with the film is that reinforces the increasing trend in TV sitcoms and movies where the overweight average guy
has a gorgeous thin girlfriend/wife. Never seems to happen the other way around. Guess it's still a man's world.

I saw the movie and thought it was pretty good. Most comedies don't make me laugh these days (especially the men in drag comedies - enough already!). My problem with the film is that reinforces the increasing trend in TV sitcoms and movies where the overweight average guy has a gorgeous thin girlfriend/wife. Never seems to happen the other way around. Guess it's still a man's world.

ekf, I thought her mother came off as cold because she wasn't in most of the movie. If I was pregnant, even if my mother was against the pregnancy, she would be visiting frequently, and she definitely would have been available all the time towards the end. Her daughters are close enough to live together, and she didn't want to see her grandchildren and daughters for nine months?

Ok I have been waiting for this because I have been dying to know if I am the only one who found the sex scene ridiculous. And by ridiculous, I mean, I did not buy for one second that Ben not wearing the condom was due to a misunderstanding. It really bothered me throughout the movie, at least until a huge storm came, knocked out the electricity, and I didn't see the end of the movie. THey gave us free passes, but I never went back because I was so bothered by the movie up to that point. The female characters were so incredibly weak and... well... yes. I just couldn't get past the condom thing.

Well. I just want to thank Pollitt--and by extention Jessica-for sparing me any kind of suspense whatsoever when and if I decide to see "Waitress."

Which I'd really kinda been looking forward to.

Ever hear of spoiler warnings?

Oh I just wanted to add that I didn't go into it looking for something to get pissed about or make political commentary on. I was ready for a happy little comedy, and I just didn't get at all what I was expecting.

I second that, Ben. Although I hadn't planned to see it, I might have.

Seth Rogen is indeed adorable.

And I really don't get all the articles I've seen talking about how fat he is.

My problem with the film is that reinforces the increasing trend in TV sitcoms and movies where the overweight average guy has a gorgeous thin girlfriend/wife.

That's what bothered me most too. It's pretty degrading to women, too. No matter how accomplished, intelligent, capable, beautiful and confident you are, the best you can hope for is a sloppy, inconsiderate man-child who'll never do his fair share. Put up with it.

Seth Rogan's character may not have been that bad, but the formula plays out over and over in movies and on TV.

No matter how accomplished, intelligent, capable, beautiful and confident you are, the best you can hope for is a sloppy, inconsiderate man-child who'll never do his fair share. Put up with it.

If you need a compelling story like "cool girl meets cool guy", try real celebrity news. Like Angeliina Jolie and Brad Pitt. Or Bill Gates and Melinda Gates. Or Yuri Luzhkov (longtime mayor of Moscow, capital of Russia) and Yelena Baturina (the only Russian billionaire woman). Etc.

Popular movies are inspiration for losers, not for winners. Winning is inspirational enough as it is.

I asked my mother about the hairless vulva, and she said that the nurses shaved her in preparation for childbirth for me, my sister, and my brother.

Besides that, I thought the movie was pretty good. I didn't appreciate that they associated abortion with her very stringent mother, but I also think that being pro-choice, means you support a woman's right to choose to have a child too. She wasn't coerced into carrying her pregnancy to term, she chose.

Wow Boris. How... inspirational.

What about inspiration for female losers? Or just regular women who don't look like Katherine Heigl? You never see the roles reversed. Brad Pitt doesn't play opposite Jeri Blank (or however you spell it).

I thought this movie improved on the fat-ugly-guy/hot-gal situation a fair bit from what we typically see in sitcoms and the like in one important way -- they didn't try to make him the hero and her the villian.

In shows like "Everybody Loves Raymond" and their ilk, the guy is an "everyman," nice and likeable, with foibles that are all forgiven and glossed over, whereas the women are clearly more competent and hard working but are somehow the "bad guy" for wanting the guy to quit being an idiot and/or child and/or liar and take responsibility for his portion of the relationship (which is already patriarchically stacked in his favor, even though such responsibilities are typically portrayed as elephantine for his capabilities). (That men put up with watching this insulting crap has always been a mystery to me.)

In the movie, his lack of drive, his dreamer-type quality regarding his future, his laziness regarding the baby books -- those are all considered negatives, things that make Allison totally justified in breaking things off (especially since she helps him by watching movies and supporting his dreamer-y efforts). She's not a villian by breaking things off, and while he's pissed that she kicked him out in the middle of the road, he realizes she has a valid point and gets his shit together.

So while I grant that on a superficial level the dumpy guy/hot chick combo continues the Hollywood defining down of women's expectations, on a deeper personality level, they did the sitcoms a fair bit better.

And to answer Feminist Review's question about my comment regarding Ben becoming worthy of being a parent (or whatever it was I said), my point was merely that, before the breakup, he was trying to avoid being an asshole (very much of a "what do you want me to do?" attitude). After the breakup, he changed his behavior in an effort to become a father, changing his focus from himself to the child he wanted to parent (and convincing the mother of said child that he was responsible enough to be up to the task -- more of an "I believe this is what I should do, and I'm happy to do it" attitude). I wasn't pointing to anything more particular than that, and I have no checklist for parental worth.

What about inspiration for female losers? Or just regular women who don't look like Katherine Heigl? You never see the roles reversed. Brad Pitt doesn't play opposite Jeri Blank (or however you spell it).

Well, if you google Yelena Baturina, you will notice that she is not beautiful in any traditional sense. But Luzhkov also is not Brad Pitt. So your argument stands.

"Hunk + loser girl" is a popular anime plot. As in "Sailor Moon" or "Fushigi Yuugi" or "Marmalade Boy". And here, in Russia, there are a number of writers who publish stories of that kind. I think, USA also should have romance novels like that. As for TV series, I've already mentioned Ugly Betty.

Interesting, Boris.

And I'll definitely give you those points, efk.

This isn't relevant to the movie itself, but to Katha's blog. Check out the first comment on the first post!! It's so sad that writers trying to bring feminist work into broader online communities - in addition to the Nation, I'm thinking of Broadsheet - attract trolls and offensive, non-constructive conversations. I can hardly read Broadsheet anymore because it so colors my experience as a reader there.

Anyway, I highly value the comment threads here at Feministing - even when heated! It's just very sad to be constantly reminded that feminist views face such hostility elsewhere.

"there are five different kinds of chairs in this room."

I'm only so familiar with the regions, but I'm pretty sure I saw grass on the field during the crowning shots. It certainly looked prepared, and while it is unlikely that a pregnant woman would show such diligent concern to her lady-parts, those lady-parts are attached to a woman what makes a living as on-camera talent on E! and I would just assume it's habit-forming.

Leslie Mann turned in so fine a caricature of a 2007 young wife/mother that it is being misinterpreted. I found her very funny, and surprisingly sympathetic.

I am repeatedly dismayed by the assertion that in "real life" Alison would never have slept with Ben. There is a cinema/television tradition of pairing a svelte petite woman with a big, tall, fat guy(refer you to the case of Flintstone v. Bedrock) that feminists (rightly) point out as evidence of systemic double-standards in our culture. However, I fail to see how boisterously villifying the men in these pairings rectifies anything. This is not to say that those opinions are not valid or not within a woman's rights, but it's counterproductive to call that feminist thinking. Is it possible that the continued chubby-guy/impossibly good looking pairings are having some sort of degenerative effect on actual relationships? are less-than-Leah-Remni-hot "real girls" are left wanting and lonely? I see svelte, little dudes and big chicks attached at the hip and parts below alla time, and I'm in a notoriously image-conscious urban area(though the 7:1 ratio of single men to women may account for this).
In the interest of full disclosure I of course would only benefit if tiny hot girls fell for ogre-boys with the frequency Hollywood implies; the general "I would never touch Seth Rogen, he's a fat fatty fat fat" says to me that I should only be attracted to, and expect attraction from, women my shape and size, at which point my personal preferences are being dictated to me by feminist groupthink, an ugly contradiction in terms I use with some hesitation that nevertheless prevails.

"Not hollywoody attractive, but clever and successful woman + Attractive and resolute, yet not really successful hunk" is a plot of Academy Award winner Soviet movie "Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears".

kissmypineapple:

I asked my mother about the hairless vulva, and she said that the nurses shaved her in preparation for childbirth for me, my sister, and my brother.

Great post.

Susan beat me to it, but yes, you don't shave women pre-birth anymore...it increases the risk of infection.

However, it isn't inconceivable that an appearance focused character would get a Brazilian specifically for her birth...I've known real women who did! But that's a whole other discussion...so while I don't really like Apatow, that part's not necessarily inaccurate.

Maybe the vulva thing was simply a matter of the double they found? As I gather, the footage was real, and the woman in question let them use it for the film. So maybe it wasn't a character decision about what Allison would/wouldn't have done, but just a matter of what the only woman they could find who was willing to let them use that footage?

Thanks, Feministing, for posting my review, and thanks everyone for all the really interesting comments. A few points: I described Alison's mother as "ice-cold" not because she suggested "taking care of it" but because that was the way she was portrayed. Remember?She's exasperated by her daughter getting pregnant, offers no sympathy, doesn't touch her or lean forward or ask Alison what SHE wants, doesn't say, darling of course I'll help you through this. She makes that crack about someone who had an abortion and went on to have a "real baby." Her body language is stiff and prissy-- even her clothes and the restaurant are stiff and prissy! everything about her conveys, and I think is meant to convey, "emotionally remote grande dame." I certainly was not suggesting that a mother shouldn't mention abortion to her accidentally pregnant daughter, or that doing so was proof of an icy heart. I was describing the character who appears on the screen. I don't think it's an accident that the only character who suggests abortion (although unable to utter the word) is presented this way.
About Waitress, I don't think I got the the end wrong, as Brenda suggests. After giving birth, Jenna dumps the abusive husband; she wins the baking contest (very quick scene -- she's in the center with the blue ribbon, flanked by the runners up); she opens her own pie diner (that's the happy end, thanks to the big check her grouchy boss writes her before he dies). That's what happens, no?

BTW, I would never write about a movie without having seen it.
As for Seth Rogen as adorable -- I don't see it, but I guess it takes all kinds.
Anyway, I enjoyed everyone's comments -- much better discussion than over at The Nation, where trolls rule.

Seth Rogan is totally hot. I really can't believe people are trying to lump him in with the King of Queens stereotype of heavy guy with hot chick. I think these two people are easily equally good looking.

But anyway, all the talk really makes me want to go see it. Perhaps I will head out tomorrow.

I'm a knuckledragger with a beer gut and I've gotten hot chicks before. I don't watch sitcoms (aside from Coupling), so maybe I'm off base here, but what's so farfetched about a guy who isn't exactly a prize being with a hot wife or girlfriend?

"My problem with the film is that reinforces the increasing trend in TV sitcoms and movies where the overweight average guy has a gorgeous thin girlfriend/wife."

Or you can forget about Hollywood, which is complete garbage, and take a look what's going on, on the foreign scene.

Here's my list of chick flicks that rocked.

"The Cuckoo" (Russian, Lap, and Finn) 2 hot guys, and a tough chick, nobody can speak each other languages.

"Oasis" (S Korean) Crippled woman and self sacrificing man find true love, and I mean true love.

"Addicted" (S Korean) 2 hot brothers one woman, who can she be most happy with?

"3 Iron" (S Korean) Hot guy says no words, but she knows he loves her (and she is 12 years older than him).

"Nana" (Japanese *hard to find*) 2 women with the same name share an apartment, get through the trials of life (a little too much J-pop though)

"Kamikaze Girls" (Japanese) Bad name for a great movie. No men, but 2 bad ass chicks with a lots of style (one is a Lolita, and the other is a biker babe) find common ground.

"Satin Rouge" (Arabic and French) Beautiful older woman starts Belly Dancing, younger hot club drummer fall for her, but there is a twist (must see).

"New Love in Tokyo" (Japanese) A dominatrix and a call girl prove they are better than all the men around them.

"Swallowtail Butterfly" (Japanese and English *hard to find*) Migrants, and White-Japanese men who know no English. Very funny, very strange, very satisfying.

"Be With You" (Japanese *hard to find*) Great love story that expresses that love last forever (and the guy is cute).

"The Calamari Wrestler" (Japanese) Strange, funny movie, with a beautiful love story (must see).

"Warm Water Under a Red Bridge" Yes there is a god, and his name Koji Yakusho (Japanese) Very funny movie, he's older, but hot, she's about the same age, but also hot, and she leaks water.

"Brothers" (Danish) Two brother one in the military and the other just got out of prison; which one loves the military brother's wife more?

"Marriage Is a Crazy Thing" (S Korean) A blind date leads to a relationship that pushes every limit (in a good way). The man and woman look great together.

"A Moment to Remember" (S Korean *hard to find*) Bring the tissue box to this one, but the guy is too handsome to miss.

"You are my Sunshine" (S Korean *hard to find*) She's a call girl, but he still loves her, and never gives her up (he is a little chubby though).

"'Nana' (Japanese *hard to find*) 2 women with the same name share an apartment, get through the trials of life (a little too much J-pop though)"

I haven't seen the movie but I did read some of the manga it's based on (the series isn still going in Japan and several volumes are already out in English). It's a good story. :)

"'Satin Rouge' (Arabic and French) Beautiful older woman starts Belly Dancing, younger hot club drummer fall for her, but there is a twist (must see)."

I agree - it's one of my favorite romantic comedies. :)

Hey...I'm sure someone else already brought this up, I just can't seem to find it...but anyway...
I liked the movie, it was funny...I had a few issues with it but didn't make a big deal out of it. What did bother me was how the asshole doctor they got in the end (cuz her doctor was unavailable) was such a JERK to her...wanted to completely disregard her birth plan & ignore her requests...it was disrespectful & disgusting. When we talk about women's reproductive freedom, it goes both ways...and that kind of situation probably happens for a lot of women (e.g. when women want to do it the "natural" way with no drugs)...many women's requests are disregarded & its scary.

However, I DID enjoy when Seth Rogen angrily pulled the guy into the hallway to give him a good talking-to and tell him to respect her decisions :)

I would totally, totally have sex with Seth Rogen. Seriously, I find him adorable. Also, I would much sooner have sex with an ugly funny guy than with a hot boring one. Maybe it makes me a cliche but I find humor an aphrodisiac.

I thought the movie was fabulous, honestly. I didn't think we needed that much more info about her decision to keep the baby--I have a friend who is utterly pro-choice, doesn't consider abortion murder at all but is pretty sure that if she got pregnant she would not be able emotionally to deal with having an abortion, which is what it looked to me was going on with Alison. It didn't seem like it had to be that way, and in fact Ben's pro-life friend was more or less mocked (the mother, after all, was not the only person to suggest abortion--one of Ben's friends did as well).

Also, I don't get where people are coming from with their readings of Alison's sister--I thought she was portrayed as imperfect, sure, but certainly sympathetic, her woes about growing older given real weight and sadness, her line about men growing more attractive while women grow less a feminist classic, and her frustration with her husband as understandable, at least, as his frustration with her--it's dickish to ditch your wife for fantasy baseball, but it's understandable given his feelings of suffocation, but she has her own feelings too that she, as a woman, wants to indulge but won't, but he can't know that because she never says so... etc. etc. The fights were really realistic and, like I said, I think both of them felt pretty sympathetic.

I also didn't understand Ms. Pollitt's reaction to Alison hanging out with Ben's friends--maybe it's a generational thing but if I had a boyfriend with friends like that, sure I'd go over and chill with them, especially if he were eager to go baby-stuff shopping with me. But I mean I've played DDR on a date and watched Justice League Unlimited with a boyfriend who swore it was the best-written show on TV so maybe I'm weird.

Also, my mom loved this movie largely for making pregnancy sound like it sucks, which it did for her (nine months of morning sickness, anyone?) which I think is a huge step from the usual glorification of it that we get.

Mina

"Nana" the movie isn't much like the manga, but I still highly recommend the movie. However the sequel to "Nana" is terrible with a different cast, so avoid it

The music alone was reason enough to enjoy "Satin Rouge," and the story is one of the most original I have ever seen. Apparently the Arab world is in a bit of a movie renaissance right now, and I am looking for other Arabic movies. Can you recommend any?

I saw "Lost Paradise," this evening. It was not exactly a romance, though there was one very sweet kiss scene in it, but since it's about Palestinian bombers, it may turn a lot of western audiences off.

I also saw "Born in Brothels," which is a documentary about Indian (Asian) children born in brothels, and I am pretty sure feminists will like it, so I recommend it.

On the topic of "knocked Up," I took my wife to see it last weekend, and we both thought it was funny, but it really didn't offer much more than laughs (and neither of us talked about it the next day). I liked "40 Year Old Virgin" better, because it brought up deeper levels of discussion after having watched it (also I loved watching an Asian woman torture a white guy). And Steve Carell and Catherine Keener made a much more admirable looking couple than Seth Rogen and Katherine Heigl did. Heigl I thought looked weak, and Seth was too much of a clownish dunce that American audiences bizarrely crave. Why do Americans love stupid men like Joey (from "Friends") and George W Bush? Dim characters to me are just annoying.

I don't know if I just missed it, but I've read a number of articles on this, and no one's commented on the obvious reason Heigl's character refused to consider abortion: the sonogram.

When she goes to the ob/gyn, he doesn't take a urine or blood sample (which used to be SOP, but who knows anymore, with sonogram technology being so cheap?), he just sticks a sonogram wand into her and boom! There's a picture of her baby.

Makes it a lot harder to abort once you've seen it, don't you think? Pro-life groups promote the use of this strategy, even to the point of legislating that all women be shown an ultrasound of their fetus before they're allowed to have an abortion (I don't think that's actually gone into effect, thank goodness).

Now, I don't think the doctor did that on purpose, he obviously jumped to the conclusion that they were a couple and wanted to have a baby.

What I don't quite understand is why she didn't have her own doctor, but had to go to her sister's, but whatever. Movies don't make perfect sense any more than life does.

One more point: It seems to me a GOOD thing that the Heigl character accepted the Rogen character for who he was, placing no demands on him to change for her sake. He matures of his own free will, making it much more meaningful and likely to endure.

All in all, I thought the movie's main weakness was that Heigl's character was unrealistically nice for someone who is
A) a hot blonde
B) in show business
C) from So Cal

Her attraction to Rogen is the first thing I liked about her.

And I REALLY liked that they didn't get married. I'm so sick of movies with weddings. It's 2007, why are we still trotting out those tired old 50s movie conventions?

Eek, sorry about that--spoiler alert added. Late I know, apologies, I've been on the road for a week.

Ian Ayres has an interesting post at Balkinization on the moral and hypothetically legal implications of [very mild spoiler] Ben's unprotected sex with Allison without adequate consent.

Its kind of bullshit to me that so many people have a problem with the shaved/waxed vulva. Many women feel sexy being hairless, and becoming pregnant doesn't change the desire to feel good about one's self (although it is hard as hell to do such high maintenance after a while). Additionally, if a woman decides to keep the fetus, WHY can't she consider it a life from the time she makes this decision? So many times it seems like pro-choice has to mean anti-baby. Do we not support a woman's choice to fall in love with a fetus just as much as we support a woman's choice to terminate it?

"Do we not support a woman's choice to fall in love with a fetus just as much as we support a woman's choice to terminate it?"

Absolutely!!!

Most of the people I know hate abortion, and would never get one, but everyone I know is against making access to abortion illegal (and most of the people I know are conservatives and moderates). You can be pro-life and pro-choice at the same time. In reality it is all a question of rights. Few people want to infringe on reproductive rights, just like they don't want to repeal the second amendment.

OliviaB, the problem we have is that abortion is rarely, if ever, even dealt with by the MSM. Women have abortions! They USE the word "abortion." And if anyone's gonna have an abortion it's a 20-something single woman on the fast-track at her job who got pregnant during a one-night-stand. I just wish abortion was dealt with more honestly.

Sorry I meant to say that; absolutely we (anyone) can support a woman's choice to fall in love with a fetus just as much as we support a woman's choice to terminate it.

Ah, got it. I think I scanned over the thread a little too quickly.