I have infinite respect for the people who filmed this; if I had been involved someone would have been punched.

And that last part, where the woman is being grabbed at and pulled on by the guy, is chilling. She looks scared in those shots.

Interesting video

It's seems pretty clear that everyone except some of the really drunk frat boys agrees that touching without some form of permission. And that people are willing to say some pretty offensive things on camera.

What seems less agreed upon is the degree to which verbal comments constitute harrassment, whether one comment constitutes harassment, or whether it is appropriate to comment on someone who is dressed in an attractive manner.

Ahh, that reminds me, I need to take an online sexual harassment course for my new job, so I'll see how they define it. The only other one I've had for work was pretty extreme - basically never say anything that someone else might perceive as offensive (religious views, sexual jokes, abortion, etc.). Harrasment was equated with potential offensiveness.

Sorry, somewhat rambling, random thoughts after seeing the video.

And don't forget the Feminism 101 course--or refresher course for a self-proclaimed moderate male feminist, UCLAbodyimage! LOL

If the sexual harassment course seemed extreme to you, you may want to re-evaluate your attitudes. The course might be "extreme" only vis-a-vis you. Good luck with that new job.

Yeah ... I had to stop watching after that one guy proudly proclaimed that "on a daily basis, I sexually harass girls." Makes me want to punch him in the face. How's -that- for harassment?

you know, i just attended a sexual harassment training session for managers at my organization last week, and the whole thing was a little upsetting. everything was set up as 'don't do this because we could get sued', and it was never mentioned that the kind of behaviors being mentioned were wrong, or hurtful to other employees. so ya, UCLAbodyimage, i think a lot of employees look at this as a 'don't do that cuz it could be a liability for the company' issue.

"everything was set up as 'don't do this because we could get sued', and it was never mentioned that the kind of behaviors being mentioned were wrong, or hurtful to other employees."

I once attended a workplace harassment class in which everything was set up as "here's how to sue if this happens to you" (which civil rights laws apply to which kinds of discrimination, etc.) and small group discussion of ambiguously-worded hypothetical cases.

Wow. Well, where to begin. First off, this video brings back a lot of scaring memories from college. These were the types of guys that would not only verbally harass or grab a girl, but also would think nothing of sticking a rufie (sp?) in her drink, or having sex with her at one of his frat parties while she’s past out. It’s scary that they are considered the “normal college guy�, and that they are the guys that naïve, insecure college girls go for.
So according to the men in this video here are some tips for all you college girls out there who want to go out on a Saturday night with your friends, without getting groped:

1. Do not wear any clothing that shows any skin. Turtleneck and pants are the best way to go.

2. Don’t drink any alcohol: it will impair your judgment, and there’s a good chance you could be doped up by some creep.

3. Do not dance. Dancing = sexual behavior, which means “you want it�

4. Do not except any drinks from guys or talk to them. If they have to spend any time or money on you that means you “owe� them.

5. Just don’t go out or have any fun what so ever. According to these guys if you don’t want to be harassed, then stay at home.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286716,00.html

This is a bizarre story about a man was paid to dispose of aborted and miscarried babies. They found over 300 corpses in his garage.

Grace Wrote: "And don't forget the Feminism 101 course--or refresher course for a self-proclaimed moderate male feminist, UCLAbodyimage! LOL"

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry!

Grace wrote: "If the sexual harassment course seemed extreme to you, you may want to re-evaluate your attitudes. The course might be "extreme" only vis-a-vis you. Good luck with that new job."

Really? You don't think that equating "possibly offensive" with "harrassment" is extreme? Perhaps you need a class in free speech 101! I think we can all agree that repeated harassing comments in the face of request to desist is bad. It's quite another thing to restrict speech because it might make some people uncomfortable - that covers pretty much every topic on feministing.com!

stupidest video i've seen in a long time. i guess we should all get the impression that going out to the clubs should be a strictly puritanical affair. and rolling up to the person you're attracted to and talkin your game is harassment. redonk. who wants to live in a world so full of hate?

not i.

UCLAbodyimage - at the risk of totally derailing this thread:
Really?
You don't see a difference between a website that people visit of their own free will to discuss (sometimes) controversial issues, and being subjected to a co-worker's or employer's views on said issue?
There's this thing called context.

Resisting urge to feed trolls. It hurts.

"You don't see a difference between a website that people visit of their own free will to discuss (sometimes) controversial issues, and being subjected to a co-worker's or employer's views on said issue?"

Oh, I certainly see a difference. My point was that I think people should be free to talk about the types of issues discussed at feministing.com when at work, even if some people find issues such as gay rights, gender equality, sexual harrasment, etc. I also think issues surrounding sexuality, relationships, and so on should be acceptable topics of conversation even if it makes people uncomfortable.

Certainly I think people have the right to freedom of speech as well as the right to be free of speech. My primary complaint regarding the workshop we were made to attend was that the company basically said "if you think a topic might possibly be offensive to someone, don't talk about it". This is quite different than repeatedly subjecting someone to continual harassment. Do you see the distinction I am drawing?

"You don't see a difference between a website that people visit of their own free will to discuss (sometimes) controversial issues, and being subjected to a co-worker's or employer's views on said issue?"

Oh, I certainly see a difference. My point was that I think people should be free to talk about the types of issues discussed at feministing.com when at work, even if some people find issues such as gay rights, gender equality, sexual harrasment, etc make them uncomfortable. I also think issues surrounding sexuality, relationships, and so on should be acceptable topics of conversation even if it makes people uncomfortable.

Certainly I think people have the right to freedom of speech as well as the right to be free of speech. My primary complaint regarding the workshop we were made to attend was that the company basically said "if you think a topic might possibly be offensive to someone, don't talk about it". This is quite different than repeatedly subjecting someone to continual harassment. Do you see the distinction I am drawing?

Peter wrote: "i guess we should all get the impression that going out to the clubs should be a strictly puritanical affair. and rolling up to the person you're attracted to and talkin your game is harassment."

Errr... I don't think that was the point. I think the point of the video was that it's easy to find a boatload of men who view women solely as sex objects and that some are persistently verbally and sometimes physically aggressive.

The extent to which "talking game" is acceptable is a somewhat different matter. My view is that it's perfectly acceptable to compliment someone on their appearance at a bar, but to show respect if the approach is not recipricated. Somewhat different than yelling "F them hoes" to random people in the bar or street.

My name is Tai Holland and I'm a PSU IST student who is minoring in sociology and as such was student in some of the women's studies classes last semester as well as being a big party-goer who was out and about that night. With that said this video can't in any way be taken seriously. Not because the issue isn't important (it is and harassment at PSU and other colleges is as high as ever) but because that was one of PSU's biggest party nights and every last person in that video was plastered drunk or stoned stupid. I know especially as the white guy who said "skeet-skeet"* and the asian female had both left my house previous to the filming of this documentary from a party. In addition to which I was in line at Canyon Pizza when this women asked a few of the groups of guys questions but at the time I had no idea what was going on and paid it little it any attention. If the makers of this video are really PSU student's:

A) they knew what that particular day was and the kind of party that would follow suit
and
B) knew that the place they were interviewing known as "The Canyon" is a huge gathering spot for inebriated kids at late night food joints

While I'll freely admit street harassment is a problem for women on campus, the creators of this ''documentary' should perhaps think harder next time about the place, time, and mood of filming. Catching drunk and stoned kids late at night an asking them about their level of respect for the fight against street harassment is stupid, pointless, and pretty making letting people who have no real clue what's going on, make fools of themselves. Which helps no one.

* I only mention the two student race as think they'd be pretty pissed if I put their names online.

Grace wrote: "Good luck with that new job."

Thanks! I think it would actually be of interest to the blog. The class I'll be co-teaching is a year long course titled "Sex: From Biology to Gendered Society", co-taught by social constructionists, physiologists, anthropologists, geneticists, and evolutionary psychologists. Should be interesting!

sorry for all the spelling errors and and such but i'm in a rush before going out and just saw this when i was looking for something else PSU related.

How is being drunk an excuse for bad male behavior (see Tai-Tai above) and a reason to blame female victims for other people's bad behavior? As I read it, when men are drunk they are not responsible for their actions, and when women are drunk they are responsible for everyone's actions. How does that logic work? Can somebody explain it to me?

I simply mean that the whole timing of the interview was suspect. PSU has was for students to do projects such as this such as the past years Race Relations Project as PSU.

Well, aside from some style issues (the overdramatic plinky-plink music at the beginning), what I would actually like to see is what responses you would get if the questioner is male. I think you might get even more disturbing responses...drunk or sober...from some of these guys. Some of whom I'm pretty sure were wanting to say the right thing to their questioners.

and man, I SO do not miss college. Yeesh.

Every now and then, I thank God for making me unattractive.

Tai-tai, thanks for commenting and offering a perspective closer to the source on this video. However, I don't understand what's so troubling about the video. It seems like a pretty standard college drinking party. Hell, it's similar to shit that went down in LAW school. Sadly, not in the least shocking to ME, and I went to law school at like the Nerd Capital of universities. Plus, if men start ranting and raving and acting like pigs when they're drunk, this is incredibly relevant as it's always WOMEN who are blamed when rape/harassment happens and "alcohol is involved." If alcohol actually makes MEN more likely to harass, as opposed to simply making women more likely to experience it, this tells us something about what actions we might want to consider taking to curb harassment. In other words, if men can't act like decent human beings when they're drunk, let's take away their liquor.

Re if a male was questioning them... I am pretty sure that in a couple parts the voice coming from behind the camera was male. Like, when the guy asks what class it's for, it's almost definitely a guy's voice saying "women's studies." I have to say, I'm crushing on him a little bit for this video.

UCLA - here's where we differ I guess.
When I'm at work, I don't really want to listen to offensive jokes, racism/sexiam/homophobia/forced birthers/ religious rants etc etc, and if the price for that is avoiding certain topics in the workplace, I'm fine with that.

Of course, it comes down to one's own judgement, and I'm sure in certain workplaces, especially if you're close to your co-workers, controversial topics could be discussed.

I would always try to err on the side of caution, thats all.

Also, if you do end up having a disscusion on say, abortion for example, and you find your co-workers hold very different views to you, it could make things pretty uncomfortable at work from then on.

Every now and then, I thank God for making me unattractive.

I sometimes think the same thing. Reading the harassment thread, I was often thinking, "On second thought, I'm glad I'm pretty much invisible to men."

This makes me glad that I turned down PSU's offer of admission years ago and then later ended up transferring to Brandeis. Brandeis. The school consistently voted "ugliest" by Playboy (don't get me started) where this kind of heaving partying never happens, and where most men I know are a lot more respectful than I would've anticipated.

Just so I am clear on this, men should not have to think about being respectful to women if it is the night of a really big party? This is why the filmmakers should not have chosen this night? Before such a night occurs, are the women on campus given prior notice that on this particular night drunk men may harass them, but they should let it slide just this one time because it is a REALLY BIG PARTY?
(Oh wait, they are probably harassed by drunk men nearly every night, and they are always expected to let it slide because if not they are uppity bitches, manhaters, or dykes. I guess they should have stayed home.)
I guess I should be thankful I went to a "hippie" college.

Alcohol isn't an excuse for behavior. Maybe if these guys were sober they wouldn't have used the crudest of crude terms on camera (especially after finding out that it was for a class project) but clearly these men think it's acceptable to harass women, probably no matter how plastered (or not) they are.

Tai-Tai writes:
"...this video can't in any way be taken seriously. Not because the issue isn't important...but because that was one of PSU's biggest party nights and every last person in that video was plastered drunk or stoned stupid."

"Catching drunk and stoned kids late at night an asking them about their level of respect for the fight against street harassment is stupid, pointless, and pretty [much] letting people who have no real clue what's going on, make fools of themselves. Which helps no one."

"I simply mean that the whole timing of the interview was suspect."

I disagree with your assessment, Tai. Alcohol lowers one's inhibitions, so recording the video on that particular party night was very relevant. If, when drunk, the men in this video think it is okay to harass women that too demonstrates the problem we face in society regarding treatment of and beliefs about women. These men believe it okay to view women only as sexualised objects, and to demand that women serve their sexual desire. If sober, these men might not have been so forthcoming in their opinions, and thus the issue remains hidden. Alcohol strips back the veneer to reveal the rot present underneath. It helps us all.

This video actually really freaked me the fuck out. It reminded me why I hated college. Fuck, I'm depressed now.

Anorak Wrote: "I would always try to err on the side of caution, thats all.

Also, if you do end up having a disscusion on say, abortion for example, and you find your co-workers hold very different views to you, it could make things pretty uncomfortable at work from then on."

Fair enough. I think we are both advocating erring on the side of caution, we are just cautious of different things.

I strongly believe that one of the most dangerous practices is the limitation of speech, because then the dominant ideologies gets to set the rules about what speech is off limits. I'm much more willing to allow speech even if it causes discomfort when that is traded off against potentially having a class of speech censored.

I think continual harrassment of an individual on a given point not acceptable, but I prefer more relaxed rules on what is considered harassment, with offensiveness playing a minimal role.

Yeah, as a student at the University of Miami.... these ideas aren't really restricted to Penn State. It's just in Miami, most guys go out to the clubs to scam on girls rather than house parties. Still, we have about a half dozen frat houses on campus, and I've heard of some scary things happening there. I try to avoid them. But I work in the dorms and I hear a lot of guys talking about how girls dress "like they want it" or "get all drunk and start hanging off you, even though they said they didn't want to have sex" and they'll all say that rape is wrong, they're just a little squirmy on how "rape" is defined.

The idea that a girl MIGHT be out looking to hook up, just not for sex or, even more radically, not with your harassing drunk unattractive ass apparently never crosses these boys' minds.

I concur with Tai-Tai's assertions. Even from an outsider's perspective, this is clearly a very selective representation of the university and the statement "this is your campus" is misleading at best.

...Regardless, who wants to road trip to Pennsylvania to party with the "Guys Gone Wild" and the Asian girl who made out with a girl in a waterfall?

I think a point that has been missed is the behaviors described and displayed in the video escalate past harassment. Often falling closer to indecent assault and exposure, both 2nd degree misdemeanors in PA, terroristic threats 1st degree misdemeanor. Grabbing a breast is not harassment it is assault, ejaculating on someone is not harassment it is assault, being forced into a sexual encounter is not harassment it is assault.

PS I am Penn State alum and still live in State College (the town where PSU is located)

Sorry my middle part was cut.

I think this misidentifying just speaks to the minimization that is done by both men and women of hurtful behaviors. We see in the video (and even here in the posts) the idea of drunk boys will be drunk boys and she wants it just as bad. To face reality that assailants know their actions are unwanted and continue anyway is overwhelming. It feels easier to clean up a drinking problem or to blame the short skirt. But short skirts didn't cause the assault so turtlenecks won't stop it. And the alcohol didn't make him rape it just gave him a better defense in court.

I am so thankful I spent my first 2 years of college at a community college, living at home with my parents.
I was so naive, I, more than likely, would have gotten hurt in some way.

I was thinking that a lot of the comments the guys made were more along the lines of assault rather than sexual harassment.

As far as the appropriateness of conversations at work, there is a time and place to discuss controversial issues, and that includes religion. I don't want to hear offensive jokes, no matter where I work.

Also, I think that the time at which the video was made is important. If I was looking to have access to a large group of males, or even just people in general I would have chosen the same type of time. Being drunk or high doesn't excuse actions, the same way that saying the woman was wearing a short skirt was asking for it isn't an excuse.

"Every now and then, I thank God for making me unattractive."
"I sometimes think the same thing. Reading the harassment thread, I was often thinking, 'On second thought, I'm glad I'm pretty much invisible to men.'"

To Ikkin and Annejumps - Sexual harassment/assualt/rape is more about power than a sexual need. It doesn't matter if you're attractive or not. Each of those three issues is about the offenders' own bullshit, not a lack of beauty in the victim! My sister, who is convinced she's a hag because of 30 extra pounds, just said the other day "I'm glad I'm safe from rapists because they would never attack a women who looks like me!". Low self-esteem is not a shield.

"To Ikkin and Annejumps - Sexual harassment/assualt/rape is more about power than a sexual need. It doesn't matter if you're attractive or not. Each of those three issues is about the offenders' own bullshit, not a lack of beauty in the victim!"

I think Ikkin and Annejumps were talking more about the way we somehow don't suffer as much street harassment as some other posters describe.

I taught at Penn State (women's studies) and lived in State College for 10 years. I can say that the scene portrayed in the video is not uncommon on a "big weekend." Students told me that it was routine to be touched or grabbed as well as verbally harassed on the street, in the bars, at parties etc. I think the point is not so much that this happens all day, every day on campus (it happens where I teach now too), but that this is a significant part of the culture in which Penn State women are immersed. Being downtown on one of the "big weekends" can be absolutely frightening. I do want to point out that it's not just the students either. Alumni of all ages come back to Penn State and relive their glory days, participating in the same kind of street harassment that we see here. My students who were servers in restaurants said that it was not uncommon to have a grown man drunk and harassing and touching them in a restaurant as they were trying to do their jobs. This should tell you that what we see is not just contained to Beaver Canyon on a few rowdy nights (which is still a problem). The attitude of entitlement to women's bodies spills over.

Tai-Tai,
Alcohol lowers inhibitions, allowing people to say and do things they normally repress. Do you truly believe that while sober those guys respect women and think sexual harassment is wrong? No. Getting drunk just gives them an excuse to verbalize their disrespectful, piggish attitudes (which they repress while sober). "I was drunk" is not an excuse to get in a car and drive. Nor is it a valid excuse to sexually harass or sexually assault women.

Women: men hate you.

I think Ikkin and Annejumps were talking more about the way we somehow don't suffer as much street harassment as some other posters describe.

Yup. Thanks, Mina.