I have infinite respect for the people who filmed this; if I had been involved someone would have been punched.

And that last part, where the woman is being grabbed at and pulled on by the guy, is chilling. She looks scared in those shots.

Interesting video

It's seems pretty clear that everyone except some of the really drunk frat boys agrees that touching without some form of permission. And that people are willing to say some pretty offensive things on camera.

What seems less agreed upon is the degree to which verbal comments constitute harrassment, whether one comment constitutes harassment, or whether it is appropriate to comment on someone who is dressed in an attractive manner.

Ahh, that reminds me, I need to take an online sexual harassment course for my new job, so I'll see how they define it. The only other one I've had for work was pretty extreme - basically never say anything that someone else might perceive as offensive (religious views, sexual jokes, abortion, etc.). Harrasment was equated with potential offensiveness.

Sorry, somewhat rambling, random thoughts after seeing the video.

And don't forget the Feminism 101 course--or refresher course for a self-proclaimed moderate male feminist, UCLAbodyimage! LOL

If the sexual harassment course seemed extreme to you, you may want to re-evaluate your attitudes. The course might be "extreme" only vis-a-vis you. Good luck with that new job.

Yeah ... I had to stop watching after that one guy proudly proclaimed that "on a daily basis, I sexually harass girls." Makes me want to punch him in the face. How's -that- for harassment?

you know, i just attended a sexual harassment training session for managers at my organization last week, and the whole thing was a little upsetting. everything was set up as 'don't do this because we could get sued', and it was never mentioned that the kind of behaviors being mentioned were wrong, or hurtful to other employees. so ya, UCLAbodyimage, i think a lot of employees look at this as a 'don't do that cuz it could be a liability for the company' issue.

"everything was set up as 'don't do this because we could get sued', and it was never mentioned that the kind of behaviors being mentioned were wrong, or hurtful to other employees."

I once attended a workplace harassment class in which everything was set up as "here's how to sue if this happens to you" (which civil rights laws apply to which kinds of discrimination, etc.) and small group discussion of ambiguously-worded hypothetical cases.

Wow. Well, where to begin. First off, this video brings back a lot of scaring memories from college. These were the types of guys that would not only verbally harass or grab a girl, but also would think nothing of sticking a rufie (sp?) in her drink, or having sex with her at one of his frat parties while she’s past out. It’s scary that they are considered the “normal college guy�, and that they are the guys that naïve, insecure college girls go for.
So according to the men in this video here are some tips for all you college girls out there who want to go out on a Saturday night with your friends, without getting groped:

1. Do not wear any clothing that shows any skin. Turtleneck and pants are the best way to go.

2. Don’t drink any alcohol: it will impair your judgment, and there’s a good chance you could be doped up by some creep.

3. Do not dance. Dancing = sexual behavior, which means “you want it�

4. Do not except any drinks from guys or talk to them. If they have to spend any time or money on you that means you “owe� them.

5. Just don’t go out or have any fun what so ever. According to these guys if you don’t want to be harassed, then stay at home.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286716,00.html

This is a bizarre story about a man was paid to dispose of aborted and miscarried babies. They found over 300 corpses in his garage.

Grace Wrote: "And don't forget the Feminism 101 course--or refresher course for a self-proclaimed moderate male feminist, UCLAbodyimage! LOL"

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry!

Grace wrote: "If the sexual harassment course seemed extreme to you, you may want to re-evaluate your attitudes. The course might be "extreme" only vis-a-vis you. Good luck with that new job."

Really? You don't think that equating "possibly offensive" with "harrassment" is extreme? Perhaps you need a class in free speech 101! I think we can all agree that repeated harassing comments in the face of request to desist is bad. It's quite another thing to restrict speech because it might make some people uncomfortable - that covers pretty much every topic on feministing.com!

stupidest video i've seen in a long time. i guess we should all get the impression that going out to the clubs should be a strictly puritanical affair. and rolling up to the person you're attracted to and talkin your game is harassment. redonk. who wants to live in a world so full of hate?

not i.

UCLAbodyimage - at the risk of totally derailing this thread:
Really?
You don't see a difference between a website that people visit of their own free will to discuss (sometimes) controversial issues, and being subjected to a co-worker's or employer's views on said issue?
There's this thing called context.

Resisting urge to feed trolls. It hurts.

"You don't see a difference between a website that people visit of their own free will to discuss (sometimes) controversial issues, and being subjected to a co-worker's or employer's views on said issue?"

Oh, I certainly see a difference. My point was that I think people should be free to talk about the types of issues discussed at feministing.com when at work, even if some people find issues such as gay rights, gender equality, sexual harrasment, etc. I also think issues surrounding sexuality, relationships, and so on should be acceptable topics of conversation even if it makes people uncomfortable.

Certainly I think people have the right to freedom of speech as well as the right to be free of speech. My primary complaint regarding the workshop we were made to attend was that the company basically said "if you think a topic might possibly be offensive to someone, don't talk about it". This is quite different than repeatedly subjecting someone to continual harassment. Do you see the distinction I am drawing?

"You don't see a difference between a website that people visit of their own free will to discuss (sometimes) controversial issues, and being subjected to a co-worker's or employer's views on said issue?"

Oh, I certainly see a difference. My point was that I think people should be free to talk about the types of issues discussed at feministing.com when at work, even if some people find issues such as gay rights, gender equality, sexual harrasment, etc make them uncomfortable. I also think issues surrounding sexuality, relationships, and so on should be acceptable topics of conversation even if it makes people uncomfortable.

Certainly I think people have the right to freedom of speech as well as the right to be free of speech. My primary complaint regarding the workshop we were made to attend was that the company basically said "if you think a topic might possibly be offensive to someone, don't talk about it". This is quite different than repeatedly subjecting someone to continual harassment. Do you see the distinction I am drawing?

Peter wrote: "i guess we should all get the impression that going out to the clubs should be a strictly puritanical affair. and rolling up to the person you're attracted to and talkin your game is harassment."

Errr... I don't think that was the point. I think the point of the video was that it's easy to find a boatload of men who view women solely as sex objects and that some are persistently verbally and sometimes physically aggressive.

The extent to which "talking game" is acceptable is a somewhat different matter. My view is that it's perfectly acceptable to compliment someone on their appearance at a bar, but to show respect if the approach is not recipricated. Somewhat different than yelling "F them hoes" to random people in the bar or street.

My name is Tai Holland and I'm a PSU IST student who is minoring in sociology and as such was student in some of the women's studies classes last semester as well as being a big party-goer who was out and about that night. With that said this video can't in any way be taken seriously. Not because the issue isn't important (it is and harassment at PSU and other colleges is as high as ever) but because that was one of PSU's biggest party nights and every last person in that video was plastered drunk or stoned stupid. I know especially as the white guy who said "skeet-skeet"* and the asian female had both left my house previous to the filming of this documentary from a party. In addition to which I was in line at Canyon Pizza when this women asked a few of the groups of guys questions but at the time I had no idea what was going on and paid it little it any attention. If the makers of this video are really PSU student's:

A) they knew what that particular day was and the kind of party that would follow suit
and
B) knew that the place they were interviewing known as "The Canyon" is a huge gathering spot for inebriated kids at late night food joints

While I'll freely admit street harassment is a problem for women on campus, the creators of this ''documentary' should perhaps think harder next time about the place, time, and mood of filming. Catching drunk and stoned kids late at night an asking them about their level of respect for the fight against street harassment is stupid, pointless, and pretty making letting people who have no real clue what's going on, make fools of themselves. Which helps no one.

* I only mention the two student race as think they'd be pretty pissed if I put their names online.

Grace wrote: "Good luck with that new job."

Thanks! I think it would actually be of interest to the blog. The class I'll be co-teaching is a year long course titled "Sex: From Biology to Gendered Society", co-taught by social constructionists, physiologists, anthropologists, geneticists, and evolutionary psychologists. Should be interesting!

sorry for all the spelling errors and and such but i'm in a rush before going out and just saw this when i was looking for something else PSU related.

How is being drunk an excuse for bad male behavior (see Tai-Tai above) and a reason to blame female victims for other people's bad behavior? As I read it, when men are drunk they are not responsible for their actions, and when women are drunk they are responsible for everyone's actions. How does that logic work? Can somebody explain it to me?

I simply mean that the whole timing of the interview was suspect. PSU has was for students to do projects such as this such as the past years Race Relations Project as PSU.

Well, aside from some style issues (the overdramatic plinky-plink music at the beginning), what I would actually like to see is what responses you would get if the questioner is male. I think you might get even more disturbing responses...drunk or sober...from some of these guys. Some of whom I'm pretty sure were wanting to say the right thing to their questioners.

and man, I SO do not miss college. Yeesh.

Every now and then, I thank God for making me unattractive.

Tai-tai, thanks for commenting and offering a perspective closer to the source on this video. However, I don't understand what's so troubling about the video. It seems like a pretty standard college drinking party. Hell, it's similar to shit that went down in LAW school. Sadly, not in the least shocking to ME, and I went to law school at like the Nerd Capital of universities. Plus, if men start ranting and raving and acting like pigs when they're drunk, this is incredibly relevant as it's always WOMEN who are blamed when rape/harassment happens and "alcohol is involved." If alcohol actually makes MEN more likely to harass, as opposed to simply making women more likely to experience it, this tells us something about what actions we might want to consider taking to curb harassment. In other words, if men can't act like decent human beings when they're drunk, let's take away their liquor.

Re if a male was questioning them... I am pretty sure that in a couple parts the voice coming from behind the camera was male. Like, when the guy asks what class it's for, it's almost definitely a guy's voice saying "women's studies." I have to say, I'm crushing on him a little bit for this video.

UCLA - here's where we differ I guess.
When I'm at work, I don't really want to listen to offensive jokes, racism/sexiam/homophobia/forced birthers/ religious rants etc etc, and if the price for that is avoiding certain topics in the workplace, I'm fine with that.

Of course, it comes down to one's own judgement, and I'm sure in certain workplaces, especially if you're close to your co-workers, controversial topics could be discussed.

I would always try to err on the side of caution, thats all.

Also, if you do end up having a disscusion on say, abortion for example, and you find your co-workers hold very different views to you, it could make things pretty uncomfortable at work from then on.

Every now and then, I thank God for making me unattractive.

I sometimes think the same thing. Reading the harassment thread, I was often thinking, "On second thought, I'm glad I'm pretty much invisible to men."

This makes me glad that I turned down PSU's offer of admission years ago and then later ended up transferring to Brandeis. Brandeis. The school consistently voted "ugliest" by Playboy (don't get me started) where this kind of heaving partying never happens, and where most men I know are a lot more respectful than I would've anticipated.

Just so I am clear on this, men should not have to think about being respectful to women if it is the night of a really big party? This is why the filmmakers should not have chosen this night? Before such a night occurs, are the women on campus given prior notice that on this particular night drunk men may harass them, but they should let it slide just this one time because it is a REALLY BIG PARTY?
(Oh wait, they are probably harassed by drunk men nearly every night, and they are always expected to let it slide because if not they are uppity bitches, manhaters, or dykes. I guess they should have stayed home.)
I guess I should be thankful I went to a "hippie" college.

Alcohol isn't an excuse for behavior. Maybe if these guys were sober they wouldn't have used the crudest of crude terms on camera (especially after finding out that it was for a class project) but clearly these men think it's acceptable to harass women, probably no matter how plastered (or not) they are.

Tai-Tai writes:
"...this video can't in any way be taken seriously. Not because the issue isn't important...but because that was one of PSU's biggest party nights and every last person in that video was plastered drunk or stoned stupid."

"Catching drunk and stoned kids late at night an asking them about their level of respect for the fight against street harassment is stupid, pointless, and pretty [much] letting people who have no real clue what's going on, make fools of themselves. Which helps no one."

"I simply mean that the whole timing of the interview was suspect."

I disagree with your assessment, Tai. Alcohol lowers one's inhibitions, so recording the video on that particular party night was very relevant. If, when drunk, the men in this video think it is okay to harass women that too demonstrates the problem we face in society regarding treatment of and beliefs about women. These men believe it okay to view women only as sexualised objects, and to demand that women serve their sexual desire. If sober, these men might not have been so forthcoming in their opinions, and thus the issue remains hidden. Alcohol strips back the veneer to reveal the rot present underneath. It helps us all.

This video actually really freaked me the fuck out. It reminded me why I hated college. Fuck, I'm depressed now.

Anorak Wrote: "I would always try to err on the side of caution, thats all.

Also, if you do end up having a disscusion on say, abortion for example, and you find your co-workers hold very different views to you, it could make things pretty uncomfortable at work from then on."

Fair enough. I think we are both advocating erring on the side of caution, we are just cautious of different things.

I strongly believe that one of the most dangerous practices is the limitation of speech, because then the dominant ideologies gets to set the rules about what speech is off limits. I'm much more willing to allow speech even if it causes discomfort when that is traded off against potentially having a class of speech censored.

I think continual harrassment of an individual on a given point not acceptable, but I prefer more relaxed rules on what is considered harassment, with offensiveness playing a minimal role.

Yeah, as a student at the University of Miami.... these ideas aren't really restricted to Penn State. It's just in Miami, most guys go out to the clubs to scam on girls rather than house parties. Still, we have about a half dozen frat houses on campus, and I've heard of some scary things happening there. I try to avoid them. But I work in the dorms and I hear a lot of guys talking about how girls dress "like they want it" or "get all drunk and start hanging off you, even though they said they didn't want to have sex" and they'll all say that rape is wrong, they're just a little squirmy on how "rape" is defined.

The idea that a girl MIGHT be out looking to hook up, just not for sex or, even more radically, not with your harassing drunk unattractive ass apparently never crosses these boys' minds.

I concur with Tai-Tai's assertions. Even from an outsider's perspective, this is clearly a very selective representation of the university and the statement "this is your campus" is misleading at best.

...Regardless, who wants to road trip to Pennsylvania to party with the "Guys Gone Wild" and the Asian girl who made out with a girl in a waterfall?

I think a point that has been missed is the behaviors described and displayed in the video escalate past harassment. Often falling closer to indecent assault and exposure, both 2nd degree misdemeanors in PA, terroristic threats 1st degree misdemeanor. Grabbing a breast is not harassment it is assault, ejaculating on someone is not harassment it is assault, being forced into a sexual encounter is not harassment it is assault.

PS I am Penn State alum and still live in State College (the town where PSU is located)

Sorry my middle part was cut.

I think this misidentifying just speaks to the minimization that is done by both men and women of hurtful behaviors. We see in the video (and even here in the posts) the idea of drunk boys will be drunk boys and she wants it just as bad. To face reality that assailants know their actions are unwanted and continue anyway is overwhelming. It feels easier to clean up a drinking problem or to blame the short skirt. But short skirts didn't cause the assault so turtlenecks won't stop it. And the alcohol didn't make him rape it just gave him a better defense in court.

I am so thankful I spent my first 2 years of college at a community college, living at home with my parents.
I was so naive, I, more than likely, would have gotten hurt in some way.

I was thinking that a lot of the comments the guys made were more along the lines of assault rather than sexual harassment.

As far as the appropriateness of conversations at work, there is a time and place to discuss controversial issues, and that includes religion. I don't want to hear offensive jokes, no matter where I work.

Also, I think that the time at which the video was made is important. If I was looking to have access to a large group of males, or even just people in general I would have chosen the same type of time. Being drunk or high doesn't excuse actions, the same way that saying the woman was wearing a short skirt was asking for it isn't an excuse.

"Every now and then, I thank God for making me unattractive."
"I sometimes think the same thing. Reading the harassment thread, I was often thinking, 'On second thought, I'm glad I'm pretty much invisible to men.'"

To Ikkin and Annejumps - Sexual harassment/assualt/rape is more about power than a sexual need. It doesn't matter if you're attractive or not. Each of those three issues is about the offenders' own bullshit, not a lack of beauty in the victim! My sister, who is convinced she's a hag because of 30 extra pounds, just said the other day "I'm glad I'm safe from rapists because they would never attack a women who looks like me!". Low self-esteem is not a shield.

"To Ikkin and Annejumps - Sexual harassment/assualt/rape is more about power than a sexual need. It doesn't matter if you're attractive or not. Each of those three issues is about the offenders' own bullshit, not a lack of beauty in the victim!"

I think Ikkin and Annejumps were talking more about the way we somehow don't suffer as much street harassment as some other posters describe.

I taught at Penn State (women's studies) and lived in State College for 10 years. I can say that the scene portrayed in the video is not uncommon on a "big weekend." Students told me that it was routine to be touched or grabbed as well as verbally harassed on the street, in the bars, at parties etc. I think the point is not so much that this happens all day, every day on campus (it happens where I teach now too), but that this is a significant part of the culture in which Penn State women are immersed. Being downtown on one of the "big weekends" can be absolutely frightening. I do want to point out that it's not just the students either. Alumni of all ages come back to Penn State and relive their glory days, participating in the same kind of street harassment that we see here. My students who were servers in restaurants said that it was not uncommon to have a grown man drunk and harassing and touching them in a restaurant as they were trying to do their jobs. This should tell you that what we see is not just contained to Beaver Canyon on a few rowdy nights (which is still a problem). The attitude of entitlement to women's bodies spills over.

Tai-Tai,
Alcohol lowers inhibitions, allowing people to say and do things they normally repress. Do you truly believe that while sober those guys respect women and think sexual harassment is wrong? No. Getting drunk just gives them an excuse to verbalize their disrespectful, piggish attitudes (which they repress while sober). "I was drunk" is not an excuse to get in a car and drive. Nor is it a valid excuse to sexually harass or sexually assault women.

Women: men hate you.

I think Ikkin and Annejumps were talking more about the way we somehow don't suffer as much street harassment as some other posters describe.

Yup. Thanks, Mina.

Low-self esteem is no shield, but for once, patriarchy is. I mean, there is no guarantee that I am safe from a man asserting his dominance over me in a sexual manner, but the chances are greatly reduced as per being deemed less of a woman due to my looks. Why would a man pick me when he could take down some pillar of woman-ness, a female who has been deemed by society to be more female than I am? This is not something I can say I am grateful for, being safer than other woman who are just as innocent and undeserving, but risk so much more just walking outside of their apartment at night.

But, sometimes, I am glad to be out of that picture. I don't even go to parties because of my separation from the rest of the social world. So, let's say I'm home alone with my cat and a fridge full of chocolate. I'm lonely, and getting fatter, but hey -- at least I probably won't get raped tonight.

And, for the record, I am sensible about my self-esteem. I know what I have going for me, and what I don't. You cannot say I have low self-esteem just because I know the reality of my physical appearance. And, even if I did, how could you attack me for it on Feministing.com?

First off, big ups to the people involved in this project. Second, I'm not a student at Penn State, and only found out about this site because of kingcomrade's posts on RPG Codex.com, so give her her props. Thats' right, she needs that...But seriously, as a 24 year old black man, I have to comment.

One, its clear many people don't even know what sexual harassment IS, and you established that pretty clearly.

Second, your question about clothing is valid. There is a BIG difference between wearing clothing to gain attention from people and inviting someone to abuse you verbally or physically. I'm constantly surprised about how women talk about going out, how it seems like there risking life and limb to go out where things jump off, and how much PHYSICAL protection seems to be on their minds when stepping out. As a man I've NEVER stressed as much as many ladies do, and thats even when the possibility of getting into a fight is HIGH! But if ladies were as physically over the top as many fellas are, I'd be ready to guard myself too.

I think a lot of the problem is perspective. Many guys don't seriously imagine what it would be like if every other girl that wanted a piece just decided to reach out and take it. Many won't think it through, or will play the role and say "Hell yeah, I want that!" but they fail to think about the time that ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO THEM. Almost ever person, regardless of gender or beauty has had someone who they didn't like hit on them. Imagine that time, except make the encounter CRAZY obnoxious, then have them reach out and grope/grab/rub on you. And since most women have to deal with someone more physically imposing than they are, make them about 4 inches taller and about 40-70 lbs heavier, AND THEN imagine if everyone around you acted like it was YOUR FAULT or you wanted it to happen.

Plus, dont play the beauty card. Almost everyone has had some who was physically attractive holla @ them, and while you weren't ready to vomit, you still were like..."Mmmmm, no." Now imagine if they just grabbed a piece or some other foulness...*Somebody's workin' for a slap... But wait, she's got 50 lbs and a foot on you. Plus, you MUST have wanted it.... Dressing like that...*

Some men know, cuz they've had a Bigger, Agro Gay dude hit them up the way I've described... Well, almost. See, it's not accepted as norm to have a Gay man try to manhandle you (or worse!) and play it off as game or to treat the victim as the instigator. And I think the reason why you filmed this at the time you did was to illustrate what it IS like when the party scene is in full swing and people tend to see how people realistically treat each other when it's GAME TIME. I havent read all the comments posted yet, so I'll reply later... Holla!

PS-Play Fallout....now!

OK, now after reading more of the comments posted and a little more thought, I'm still STUNNED to see "I'm glad I'm not attractive so I wont get harrased/raped..." or "Women:Men hate you..." posts!

---->What the ufck! Even if many men are TOTALLY BACKWARDS when it comes to how they really feel about what's acceptable when you're talking/flirting to a woman (and remember, than can change depending on the type of woman, and situational and conversational context) and their are some He-Man women haters out there, you've TOTALLY LEFT planet earth when you say shit like that... What the FUCK is wrong with being attractive?!?! And since WHEN has lack of perspective and true consideration equaled HATE!?! Just by that rational alone I could assume that the women on this site hate men! Some of your female posters are guilty of the same thing, but on a different scale.

Firstly, honest dialog is needed on BOTH sides of the issue. Many man just SUPER OVERPLAY the masculine card because of fear women or they don't know how to talk to women. And many ladies assume since we men have to make the first (SOMETIMES ALL) steps, it's not their problem. Men'll just learn how to deal with women respectfully on your own.

I don't know, I can't get too riled up about the the video.

It seems pretty solid evidence that with a little effort, you find very drunk people to say things on camera that may not be any way indicative of how they live their lives. I'm not saying that these guys dont do this, my point is that it's inconclusive.

Notice it's mostly the same 3-4 groups cut together. It makes me wonder if these are the only groups the filmmakers interviewed, or out of those they interviewed, these were simply the groups with the right amounts of alcohol and bravado to offensively yak it up.

To be clear, I don't condone the behavior. I'm just not shocked that you cand find drunken frat boys that keep performing for each other by one-upping the most offensive things they can say. Do you think they really hang around and show each other their chests all night?

Well, I'm a current college student. I would say that, yes, they do. When was the last time you were at a frat party?

Not condoning this behavior, but just saying that I didn't find the actions of the people in the video at all out of character, regardless of the presence of the camera.

I kind of agree with Tai Tai that they should have chosen a better time to do their student survey. Perhaps if they did a video seeing these people in a less inebriated state they could have gotten clearer answers that are closer to the person's real views. I know a lot of boys like this, when they are sober they are good people but when they are drunk they become obnoxious. Hell, I think everyone's trying to steal my favorite shoes when I'm drunk! That's totally not what I think when I'm sober.
I think this is a good video to show that when alcohol is mixed these negative behaviors happen and heighten them. And I think it helps shed a light on what college age women go through when they are at a party.
I'm a journalism student, and what I've learned so far from my studies is that honestly portraying those you are interviewing is important.
But all that aside, I think it was a good video.

ahem, on a side note: have you all seen Borat!! Those college boys on there are waaaay worse!

So because the behavior isn't out of the ordinary for guys that age, it's somehow OK? Like, if it's common it's acceptable?

No.

Oh, and Lailoken2:
I am not going to walk on eggshells in an attempt to get the poor, misunderstood menz to get that harassment & assault is WRONG. The men in that video, men on the street, men in GENERAL don't give a flying FUCK how their behavior affects women. They don't consider women fully human; we're nothing but fuck objects who don't deserve autonomy or respect. Open your eyes.

Oh, well, if these asshats were drunk, that makes this obviously irrelevant. Because, you know, when asshats get drunk, they're not allowed anywhere near women, hence the views expressed on the video don't signal any actual behavior. Duh.

Anyone seen my clue-by-four?

Lailoken2:

Thanks for missing the point.

Posted by: ikkin [TypeKey Profile Page] | June 27, 2007 09:50 AM

Thank you, ikkin. Well said.

And just to say, I've never said or thought that I'm magically exempt from rape for being unattractive, or whatever it is that makes me beneath most men's notice (nor have I said that I have low self-esteem -- I just know that men do not pay attention to me, generally speaking, certainly not on a level approaching what many users on this site have described (which, although I shouldn't have to say it, is not acceptable at all, for anyone). I'm just glad I can generally go about my life without being spoken to or bothered by strange men.

Sarah MC and Sandinista,
I can't speak for other commenters, but as I explicitly said several times, I'm not condoning the behavior. However, I'm not shocked nor surprised by it. Partying groups of drunken macho 20 year olds are pretty much the place to go to get reprehensible statements about women on camera.

It's like taking a camera to a post break-up girls night out. I'm sure to find some vitriol about how men are stupid pig cock-knockers. It wouldn't be shocking and it doesn't say much more than I can get sound bites to back up my point if I'm selective enough.

To be clear. Sexism, bad. Street harassment, terrible. Street harassment by drunken college kids is still terrible. I'm just not sure what the video aims to illustrate other than drunk macho college guys can be assholes about women. Did anyone not already know that?

Well Llencelyn, I didn't know that. Is it common for the college guys you know to titillate each other by flashing their pecs? Do they need special prompting or do they set aside a time for it? The last time I was at a frat party was probably 2003? Is that somehow relevant?

Roni, I'm sorry. My tone came off as excessively harsh, and that was entirely my fault. I was trying to say that, based on my recent experience, drunken frat boys behave in the way portrayed in the video, even when there is not a camera involved, and that the video is therefore a relevant summary of the behavior found on a campus.

You said:

Notice it's mostly the same 3-4 groups cut together. It makes me wonder if these are the only groups the filmmakers interviewed, or out of those they interviewed, these were simply the groups with the right amounts of alcohol and bravado to offensively yak it up.

Based on my personal experience, they are representative of the group as a whole.

I wondered when the last time you were at party was in case it was long enough ago that party behavior had changed (not that it being long ago means the behavior would change). It was asked purely out of curiosity, but I guess I should have found some way to indicate that tone of voice. Again, apologies for sounding mean. :(

Roni--I totally agree. I'm definitely not condoning the behaviour, but put together alcohol + idiots + a video camera + the need to "one-up" the previous speakers in the video, and you get this shit.

Also, Llencelyn, I'm sorry that your personal experience with guys on a college campus has left you with nothing but asshats. Honestly, seeing that video made me grateful for all of the nice, sweet, straight (just throwing that in there in case some troll goes "They were probably gay!") guys I met in college who, even while we were massively shitfaced, did not once try to grab me or our other female friends anywhere. These guys are seriously just straight-up disgusting.

My college has a male to female ratio of 3:1. The aura of privledge is sometimes tangible...

It's like taking a camera to a post break-up girls night out. I'm sure to find some vitriol about how men are stupid pig cock-knockers.

That's just really not at all the same, is the thing.

I'm just not sure what the video aims to illustrate other than drunk macho college guys can be assholes about women. Did anyone not already know that?

Yes. College guys, for example. People don't know, don't believe it, don't see how bad it is, don't understand why it's such a big deal. Yes, they need to be told. You'd think they wouldn't. You'd think it'd be self-evident. You'd think that about a lot of things. You'd be wrong. Enter feminism.

It seems pretty solid evidence that with a little effort, you find very drunk people to say things on camera that may not be any way indicative of how they live their lives.

There is ACTUAL HARASSMENT ACTUALLY RECORDED ON THE ACTUAL VIDEO. It's right there! And the rest of it is voiced approval. And you're telling me that the mere presence of a camera will fundamentally alter attitudes of normally respectful people? How does that even follow?

I'm not saying that these guys dont do this, my point is that it's inconclusive.

Fine, so what would be conclusive?

Roni:

It's not just the things they said to the camera, but the things they said and did to passers-by. The video illustrates that there is a social problem on the campus that allows that behaviour to be accepted, and that as a result, there are areas where it is, contrary to the image the university would like to project, not safe or pleasant for women to travel at night.

The fratboy statements did a lot more than release vitrol, however: they established what was considered acceptable behaviour. Somehow I doubt that you will find large numbers of women congregating together where you could easily get a number of them to say that assault doesn't include kicking a guy in the nuts.

Also, even if "all" the video did was to demonstrate that "drunk macho college guys can be assholes about women", yes, I think there are many college freshmen who will not understand this, who do not realize that if you go to a frathouse or a college party as a woman you stand a good chance of being sexually assaulted, and who do not realize that such behaviour is going to be condoned by all the witnesses.

None of this is unchangeable. The crimes are not unenforceable. There just has to be a will to do so, and the video may well raise the public consciousness enough to get a start on the process.

There is an amazing full length documentary on street harassment by Maggie Hadleigh West called War Zones. She does something similar to the Penn State clip, but she keeps her camera concealed until AFTER she's been harassed, then turns the cameras on the men who just harassed her and interviews them.

It's like taking a camera to a post break-up girls night out. I'm sure to find some vitriol about how men are stupid pig cock-knockers.

Except not. Girls participating in a "post break-up night out" are not going to yell obscenities at random men waiting at the bar. They're not going to grab crotches as men walk by. What they're going to do is have a little pity party and enjoy each other's company.

Thing is, for women, a good time doesn't involve denigrating members of the opposite sex to impress one another.

Awful. The doc makes a good point, but the point is that the state of this campus (and the one I'm on as a graduate student right now, and probably countless if not most others) is unbelievably hostile for women. I want to throw up. And I can't tell you how many nights I've stayed in, just not wanting to deal with harassment, especially from these types of dudes, drunk or not.

Fine, I've seen this happen in other posts. There's just no way for one person to reasonably respond to several hostile sounding comments that seem to be willfully mis-interpreting some points, ignoring others, and picking apart details they don't agree with, such as an example not matching the original topic in all aspects. I genuinely don't have time today. The video is fantastic, not at all biased and gives valuable information to women everywhere. I see the light.

I think many of the comments here are rather paternalistic. It assumes college women are unaware that some drunk men yell at women. Of course, physical contact and demeaning, insulting comments are harassment. But I think you'd be surprised how many women actually like drunken, macho meatheads. It's hard for any of us to comprehend, but many women are attracted to this "alpha male" approach. Consider this: these men desperately want to get laid. If this approach did not achieve their goal, why would they continue? Insulting passers-by (men & women) makes them look like a "bad ass" to their group. Of course they won't score with the woman they're yelling at, but that's not their target. They are trying to impress their friends and drunken bimbos.

My friend was a counselor at a women's dorm. Some women would complain they were groped or, worse yet, raped at frat parties. Then they would go back! They would get groped again and go back again. Before you write it off as a few nutty women, my friend says it was a large majority of the women on her floor. Now what message does that send to your average horn dog frat boy? You can grope women and most will come back. A few will get angry, almost none will ever report it. Being a jackass has no downside and a big potential upside. It's no wonder frat guys do this.

FYI: I'm not saying they should. I agree that in a perfect world this wouldn't happen. But in the real world, which includes some bad people, these things happen. And in this case their behaviour is rewarded.

I think many of the comments here are rather paternalistic. It assumes college women are unaware that some drunk men yell at women.

I have to admit, I missed that comment. What I saw was "It's wrong for men to yell at women, even if they're drunk."

But I think you'd be surprised how many women actually like drunken, macho meatheads. It's hard for any of us to comprehend, but many women are attracted to this "alpha male" approach.

So? That doesn't make it right. There are people who like stupid racist fucks, too, but that doesn't mean I have to stand by and tolerate or refuse to speak out against racism, just because someone else thinks it's a cute or endearing trait. If a woman finds sexist asshats attractive, power to her, I guess- I'm going to continue to call that like I see it, though.

Consider this: these men desperately want to get laid. If this approach did not achieve their goal, why would they continue? Insulting passers-by (men & women) makes them look like a "bad ass" to their group. Of course they won't score with the woman they're yelling at, but that's not their target. They are trying to impress their friends and drunken bimbos.

Okay. So what? What is that supposed to mean? Even if I accept that as true, does that make it okay to harass other people? Or should we be able to say "I understand that they're trying to get laid, and, you know what, tough shit- that doesn't give them the right to harass women."?

My friend was a counselor at a women's dorm. Some women would complain they were groped or, worse yet, raped at frat parties. Then they would go back! They would get groped again and go back again. Before you write it off as a few nutty women, my friend says it was a large majority of the women on her floor. Now what message does that send to your average horn dog frat boy? You can grope women and most will come back. A few will get angry, almost none will ever report it. Being a jackass has no downside and a big potential upside. It's no wonder frat guys do this.

Which makes it all the more important that we do something about it, and make it clear that it's not okay. Women shouldn't have to stay away from parties in order to not be assaulted. Not getting assaulted ought to be the standard. If a woman is assaulted, it should be the exception not the bloody rule. That there are people who are shrugging like "Well, what do we expect?" is shocking and maddening. I expect people to act like decent human beings.

I transferred to PSU from Smith College my 2nd year of schooling (I know, the horror, but they have a better philosophy department). I worked at a bar in Beaver Canyon and noticed that the meaner I was to the drunken guys, the better the tips and the fewer ass grabs.

NOTE: I AM NOT BLAMING WOMEN FOR GETTING GROPED.

There IS a way for women to turn the tables on these young "studs"...if we, en masse, turned around and engaged in dialogue, even when drunk. If we didn't satisfy their need to feel "strong" by running away or lowering our eyes. These dudes are cowards through and through, if you call them on their shit, maybe use a "mommy voice" - they think twice the next time...or maybe not.

I never stopped walking to work or to class from my apartment. I walked with my head high, ready to give a lesson. Imagine if ALL the women in the video were as insulting to the duds as they were to them. Sometimes an eye for an eye works.

But, I'll be the first to admit that sometimes this doesn't work. I'd just like to hear on the radio that the women of X college have started to resist this kind of activity; to look up and and spew venom right back at their attackers. It'd be nice change from the usual, women are weak, men are predators.

But I think you'd be surprised how many women actually like drunken, macho meatheads.

Interesting, because I think you'd be surprised by how many women don't actually like them.

Consider this: these men desperately want to get laid. If this approach did not achieve their goal, why would they continue?

Just like rape and sexual assault, the goal of harassment is intimidation and assertion of power, not sexual gratification.

Of course they won't score with the woman they're yelling at, but that's not their target.

I see you answered your own question. They have multiple targets. They are asserting themselves to their equally disgusting peers, but they are doing it by intimidating women. That is an essential part of the equation.

They are trying to impress their friends and drunken bimbos.

You really had to bring out the anti-woman slurs, huh? Awesome.

Some women would complain they were groped or, worse yet, raped at frat parties. Then they would go back!

Oh my god, they didn't just join convents?! Well, they were soooo asking for it, then.

Yea, even people who have been assaulted want to keep having a social life. Yea, people don't like to be bullied out of having fun. Clearly, they are facilitating harassment/assault/rape.

Now what message does that send to your average horn dog frat boy?

How about I don't give a flying fuck? It is not a woman's job not to be harassed/assaulted/raped; it is a man's job not to harass/assault/rape her. I don't care if he's a "horn dog frat boy" or a fucking pastor, rules of bodily integrity remain consistent.

You can grope women and most will come back. A few will get angry, almost none will ever report it. Being a jackass has no downside and a big potential upside. It's no wonder frat guys do this.

When women get angry they are ridiculed and shamed and silenced. When women report it they are not taken seriously and silenced. Yea, no shit, there are no consequences for the guys. Welcome to the patriarchy. Stop blaming women.

But in the real world, which includes some bad people, these things happen. And in this case their behaviour is rewarded.

Right. This. Boys will be boys so put on your steel chastity belt and cower indoors until you're married. (If your husband happens to harass/assault/rape you... tough.)

oh, and RIGHT ON roymacIII!

I think this video would have been a thousand times better if the film makers talked about sexual harassment with people who were sober as well. I don't think every guy who harasses a woman is drunk, and to get a sober person's perspective would have been nice. But I doubt these people's opinions would have been any different if they were sober, which is depressing.

I browsed around this blog and realized this is a circle jerk for angry activists. Ann Coulter, the rhetorical assassin for the right wing, would be proud of some of the commentators on this blog. Coulter masterfully mocks and insults her opponents, twists and exaggerates their arguments, and shouts down any rebuttals. Sandinista's comments are amusing: "put on your steel chastity belt" is clever, but "[if men] harass/assault/rape you... tough" implies I'm a meanie. Well played!

Do you just want to win an argument against anonymous people on the 'Net? Or do you want to better understand the issues and search for solutions? The rap on GW Bush is that his simple brain divides the world into good vs. evil, us vs. them. But aren't you folks doing the same thing? I understand, though. I used to be "passionate" about my issues, but age and perspective mellowed me out. The world isn't perfect, but it's not out to get you either.

For the record, I do not support harassment, assault, rape or murder. I'm ambivalent about sacrificing virgins to the gods, though. (that's a joke, people)

it seems like most of what i'd like to say about this video has been said a million times already. i agree that alcohol definitely had an effect on these guys and girls who were interviewed -- it has a clearly tendency to bring out honesty / bravado, and everybody on this video was evidently completely smashed.

on the other hand, it's not a surprise at all to see this sort of stuff coming out of a school like penn state. penn state is notorious for it's wild party scene and everything that comes along with that -- cue sexual harrassment, assault, rape... all those situations the powers-that-be always blame that drunk girl for getting herself into.

i went to a small school in NJ undergrad, and one of our profs in the sociology department was extremely involved in efforts to get rape charges accurately recorded on college campuses. Across the country there is this huge problem in that campus police are generally told not to fill out police reports in an effort to dampen the negative effect crime stats have on campus recruitment. What mother is going to allow her precious little daughter to attend a school with accurate rape stats -- the real numbers would be too scary. In effect, schools are rewarded for hiding rape by recruiting more applicants than schools which accurately report these stats.

Penn State (among countless other "party schools") has been cited year after year as illegally surpressing these stats by refusing to fill out police reports about rapes that occur on campus -- therefore they never get investigated and the aggressor goes unpunished.

the inaccurate reporting of stats has been going on for ages and we never hear about it. Ask yourselves why.

Before you do anything else, projectshave, answer me this:

Do you think that women are treated equally to men, or almost equally?

For those curious about the War Zone film mentioned above, you can find info about, and a trailer, it at the producer’s website:
http://yomaggie.com/films.html

I understand, though. I used to be "passionate" about my issues, but age and perspective mellowed me out.

There's nothing like condescension to aid us in "better understand[ing] the issues and search[ing] for solutions," eh?

The rap on GW Bush is that his simple brain divides the world into good vs. evil, us vs. them. But aren't you folks doing the same thing?

No, actually. To begin with, we don't imprison, kill or otherwise harm the people who disagree with us. Furthermore, this is not a nation or any other grouping one is inherently a part of by virtue of having been born. Instead, this is a blog; one has the very real option of not reading it.

Moreover, this is a blog with a very clear socio-political bent, bound to attract like-minded people. More specifically, this is a feminist space. People who show up here and say anti-feminist shit should expect to be called on it. I don't find this particularly unreasonable.

this is a circle jerk for angry activists

In a [disrespectful] manner of speaking, sure. I can't speak for everyone here but I (and I've heard several others voice this sentiment as well) resent having to rehash basic, fem-101 crap (women are not to be held responsible for the actions of men; not all women are heterosexual and not all heterosexual women base all their life's decisions around trying to land a man; and so forth) every time someone hopelessly clueless wanders by. So, we have a collective set of ideals and are interested in discussing current events along those lines with one another; this does not saddle us with the obligation to explain the aforementioned ideals to every Tom, Dick and Jackass who wouldn't otherwise bother to find out. This is not a school and we are not teachers here. We don't owe them anything. It's painfully obvious that most of them haven't taken the time to read up and learn about even the most basic of feminist basics, so we end up having to ignore their unbelievably frustrating comments (that 10-year-old wanted it!) in a feminist space or to explain elementary shit to people who don't care enough to learn on their own and, the overwhelming majority of the time, don't even want to listen. There are Fem101 resources online; not every feminist space is a learning center for every privileged, entitled, clueless patriarch(al sympathizer).

Not everyone here is angry, by any means. Some people here are almost impossibly patient. I'm sure as hell not, though. I'm very angry, but you won't be hearing any apologies from me for it. Besides, I love when people roll up (into a feminist space) and explain that little children can consent to sex, that it's morally acceptable to call a woman a "ho," that it's acceptable to shame fat women and then spend most of their subsequent comments moaning about ad hominem attacks and how we're just not that diplomatic! Why, again, should I be nice to these people? They're saying absurdly offensive shit in our space and we're supposed to be smiley and nicey-nice about it because..?

The difference between the people here and Coulter is that we're capable of stringing together logical arguments, instead of just spewing inconsistent, unprincipled drivel. Whatever ad hominem attacks happen, they are not the crux of any position. Oh, and we're not making our livings off hurling weak-minded insults on national television. Also, we're smart and she's stupid. Just saying.

I'm glad you find me clever. But I wouldn't "impl[y]" that you're "a meanie"; I'd state that you're an asshole.

I haven't read very many of the comments so this may have been talked about already but I'm wondering if I'm the only one who noticed that some of the most outspoken verbal harasses were the less-physically-attractive of the men?

About your first comment, suissesse, I have done the same thing and gotten the same reaction. I used to wear a spiked bracelet, partially for style but also to keep people from stepping on me (I'm small) or otherwise invading my space at concerts. If they were behind me and I couldn't reach them with the bracelet, I would elbow them and act as if I did it on accident, and it worked every time. I agree that women should NOT be blamed for sexual harassment but I also think (hope) that it would happen less if women fought back like that more.

Oh, well, if these asshats were drunk, that makes this obviously irrelevant. Because, you know, when asshats get drunk, they're not allowed anywhere near women, hence the views expressed on the video don't signal any actual behavior. Duh.

Didn't you get the newsflash? Alcohol causes people to hold and express the exact opposite of their normal views? I mean, Mel Gibson is the cantor at the local synagogue when he's not hitting the sauce, and I often find myself quoting Milton Friedman and Phyllis Schlafly approvingly when I've had a scotch or two.

NOT.

To Ikkin (and Annejumps):
"And, for the record, I am sensible about my self-esteem. I know what I have going for me, and what I don't. You cannot say I have low self-esteem just because I know the reality of my physical appearance. And, even if I did, how could you attack me for it on Feministing.com?"

My comment about low self-esteem not being a shield was not at all meant as an attack against (either one of) you. I was still referring to my sister thinking she is safe from a sexual attack of ANY kind because she doesn't like the way she looks. This is the kind of thinking that would make her throw out all the rules of self-protection/preservation that women are taught because she doesn't feel she's at risk. The rest of my post was meant as more of a comment to all, referencing what you said. If (either of) you don't feel the way my sister does, believe me, I'm glad! Because it IS about power ('waxghost' said: I'm wondering if I'm the only one who noticed that some of the most outspoken verbal harasses were the less-physically-attractive of the men?) and too many women don't realize that. I apologize for not being more clear in my previous post.

I had to stop about halfway through because I was dangerously close to putting my fist through my computer screen. But it's like that at UGA (my alma mater) too. I've had my ass grabbed at more parties and clubs than I care to say, and I've let it slide because it's not worth making a scene. Lots of drunken morons on campus. Mostly frat boys. That however was less embarrassing than when I was in 6th grade and was, ahem, endowed more than the other girls and this one asshat would say "hey you've got big knockers" whenever I walked in front of the class.

and it worked every time. I agree that women should NOT be blamed for sexual harassment but I also think (hope) that it would happen less if women fought back like that more.

I'm not so sure. When I used to go to clubs, I used to elbow backwards very forcefully and deliberately when someone would begin rubbing my unsuspecting ass with their crotch. Some men would be instantly deterred, others would curse at me, others would have to be elbowed several times.

Then, I remember I was at a house party once, one full of anarcho-hippies but we all know that doesn't actually mean much in terms of gender relations. In any case, these three drunk punks came up and one of them began dancing "up on" (if you will) my friend. She's very shy and passive, so when she'd tried to get away from him to no avail she cast me a pleading glance. So I unceremoniously pulled him away from her and repositioned her away from him; then I continued dancing. At this point, I found him grinding behind me. I yelled at him to "get off me" (I'm sure there was at least one expletive) and he didn't; his friends were egging him on. I elbowed him several times, to no avail. I kicked backwards; nothing. I turned around and shoved him; he came back. Finally, I turned fully around and physically shove-walked him up to the wall and pushed him into it as hard as I could. He and his friends cursed at me profusely and left.

I suppose I eventually won out in this altercation, but I think ignoring him would probably have worked at least as well, if not better. The only thing I really got out of it was my obnoxious-ass friends telling me I should ignore him and looking worried that I was causing a scene. (Riiight.)

At the same time, if I had it to do over, I'd act the same way.

The only time I've ever been punched in the face was by a sexual harrasser.

At a house party of a friend's I went to the bathroom, and on my way there a guy grabbed my ass. I gave him a dirty look and went into the toilet.

Then, on my way out, he did it again, so I grabbed his hand and said something like "What the fuck do you think you're doing?"...and he hooked me in the jaw. UN-FUCKING-BELIEVABLE.

Friends of mine then promptly escorted him off the property, but I couldn't fucking believe this guy's sense of entitlement to my posterior.

Yes, he was drunk, but SFW?

waxghost, most of the concerts I go to now won't let you wear a spiked bracelet inside, but that's why I wear my Doc Martens or my jump boots -- protection for my toes, and if I need to reprimand someone for getting their elbow in my throat, they make my point.

And I think I'm very glad that I stick to Goth clubs for my dancing. At least at the ones I go to (scattered through the Northeast), it's just Not Done for a guy to randomly grind against a girl he fancies. There's a whole vocabulary of edging NEAR someone's dance space, and sidelong looks, and while a guy might be the first to speak, there's no contact unless the girl invites it (extended hand, twirl, move closer).

Maybe it happens and I just haven't seen it, but in my experience, Goth boys are a politer breed.

Wow. I can't believe there are so many people on earth who think that sexual assault is okay. The argument about how this video is "dishonest" because it was filmed during a big party night is also quite disingenious and illogical. Honestly, do those posters actually believe that a woman who was raped or assaulted on that night will somehow be less traumatized by it because, well, it was a Big Night? Get a clue, asshats: There ARE no circumstances that make rape and assault victims okay with what happened to them. It doesn't matter if it happened at the biggest goddamn party on earth, at a church, on the beach, in their bedroom. IT STILL FUCKING HURTS. AND IT IS NOT OKAY, EVER.

Now, for a little exercise for those who don't view this video as being so bad. First, imagine that these men are saying and doing these things to and about your mother, your sister and/or your daughter. Yes, some drunk asshole grabbed your mom's boob. Are you still okay with it? Because it's a big party weekend, is it suddenly okay if some stranger grabs your mother's breast? Really, think about it. Secondly, imagine a gay man who is significantly larger than you saying these things to and about you and grabbing your crotch. Still okay with it? I'm guessing not.

Finally, I don't really give a fantastic fuck if there are women out there who "like" this type of treatment. The point is, all women are subjected to this behavior, whether we want it or not. Nobody's checking with us beforehand to see if we want to be treated like this. A lot of people like to be tied up and whipped when they have sex, which is fine for them, but I would never want that. By the logic displayed by trolls here, just because some people like to be whipped during sex, I and everybody else should have to put up with it whenever we have sex. Saying "some women like it" is just an excuse to bully and terrorize all women, the majority of whom ABHOR being treated like this.

Sandinista- I think it's interesting that you say that you would do it the same way if you could do it again. That, to me, says that even though it wasn't entirely effective at stopping that asshat from doing it, it had some value for you. In my experience, returning the assault is empowering in the truest sense of the word. But I also had many experiences as a child being sexually harassed and had basically snapped at that point in my life because I was so damn sick of men putting their hands where they don't belong. I was sick of feeling helpless, and I have never been able to think of any other way to fight back. So even though it may be dangerous (as anorak's experience shows), I'd rather confront physical danger than have to go around feeling silent shame over something that wasn't even my fault.

Rikibeth- Most of the concerts I used to go to didn't let you wear spiked bracelets either, yet I somehow always managed to get it in. And it certainly would be nice if those goth boys would give some of the other boys in the world some lessons on dancing etiquette.

I just wanted to second Sandanista's comment. And to add: circle-jerk? Really??

For the record, a circle-jerk sounds like fun to me.

cuh-reepy. hamfisted production choices aside, the video is very effective, and I think it is balls-crazy to suggest there's nothing to be gleened from drunk people.

Also, I don't particularly care to offend or harass people I work with, but I posess a brash nature and a grim sense of humor, so this is patently unavoidable. Offending someone with my opinion on abortion or gender roles should be equated to sexual harassment?

Going through that it was a serious mix of amusement, bemusement and cringing.

But it left me with one question.

Where is this line we draw?

Guys like some of the most cringe-worthy in the video act just as crude and "harass" other guys like they do the girls. Are they just all around jerks? Are we women being too sensitive at times? Obviously it's easy to draw the line at where they touch you without permission, that's just not ok. But what about the verbal stuff? It seems like sometimes they are, in their own way, treating us as equals...others they're just being assholes.

I don't know. I don't think that was very coherent, I am trying to word what I'm thinking well, but I'll just leave it here and see if anyone else gets it. :P

I just wanted to second what Rikibeth said re: goth clubs. I went to them for years and never once got groped or catcalled.

In fact I can only recall one icky event, involving a guy in a dress (which did little to conceal his erection, sadly) who insisted on following a lesbian couple into the ladies' room. They complained, and he was promptly tossed out.

Fights are pretty uncommon in goth clubs too. The single one I witnessed provoked more eyerolling and "how juvenile, who let the kids in?" comments than it did anything else.

Sort of ironic, considering goths generally go to such lengths to look scary and unfriendly. They're a lot more polite than they appear.