D.C.'s alt-weekly, the City Paper has a package of stories this week on street harassment. One, a catcall diary a woman kept for a year. Two, a very poorly-written essay by that same woman about how now she's a racist because of all the harassment she gets from Latino men. And three, a piece by some dude who was apparently totally unaware that your average woman experiences street harassment on a daily basis. It also has a companion video, in which exactly two people (a male harasser and a female harass-ee) are interviewed. Taken as a package, it's a real trainwreck. [Warning, massive post to follow.]
What I found most remarkable about the catcall diary is that she is careful to record what she's wearing when she's harassed on the street. While it's true that short skirts can sometimes bring a different type of harassment, I find that I get unwelcome attention even if I'm wearing dirty jeans and a bulky winter coat. But I suppose it's nice for those who don't regularly experience street harassment (i.e. men) to read and take note that a short skirt and low-cut top do not necessarily correlate with catcalls. (In fact, it seemed like the subtext of the diary was: Hey guys, this is what it's like to walk outside as a woman.) The male writer seems shocked by this. In his piece, he writes,
I am leaving the Chinatown Metro station when I see a blond woman standing well over 6 feet in platform heels. Her tight black dress hangs inches below her ass and drops deep in the front, exposing a good portion of breasts that are surprisingly large for her rail-thin body. Catcall bait for sure. I step in behind her as she walks.
Isn't his tone disgusting? It's as if he wants to find a slobbering harasser to channel what he wishes he could shout at this woman. And he's then astonished when no one -- not homeless men, not construction workers, not dudes in power suits, not young men at the bus stop -- calls out to her.
The male-perspective piece began like this,
It’s early evening in Adams Morgan, and I’m tracking a nice ass in a pair of bluejeans as it glides down the Columbia Road sidewalk. I’m matching its pace, keeping my distance, 15 steps or so behind, so I can watch, so no one notices I’m watching.
Ew. Set aside for a moment Intrepid Reporter Joe's totally disgusting, sexist language. Turns out that nice, disembodied ass actually belongs to the woman who penned the other two pieces, Kimberly Klinger. He's following her to observe just how much shit women take for daring to walk down the street alone. And then he has some man-to-man chats with catcallers. The patronizing attitude of the guys he interviews is quite telling. A sampling:
“It depends on what she looks like,� adds Daniel Smallwood, a 16-year-old in a red polo shirt and a visor turned backward. “If she’s a slut, you have to treat her like a slut. If she’s not, I say, ‘How you doing young lady?’ Everybody says ‘baby’ or ‘shorty.’ I say ‘young lady.’�
And:
“Yeah, I always do it,� says Contreras [a proud street harasser]. He is happy to explain the process. “What I do is I ask how is their day. I ask to help with their bags. I give a nice compliment to her. I say, ‘You are beautiful. Can I get to know you?’� [...]I ask him about Klinger, the fastball he just whiffed. He’s excited to talk about that, too. “It’s tough in D.C.,� he says. “Especially with white girls. They are stuck up, man. Bitches.�
Contreras thinks it is bad form for women like Klinger to walk by without acknowledging a compliment, to just ignore you like you aren’t even there. It pisses him off. “At least wink at me or wave back,� he says. “Giggle or something. Don’t walk past like you didn’t hear me.� He says it’s different in Texas. He says white women there are crazy about Hispanic guys and yes, they do respond to catcalls.
(Back to the race thing in a second.) Intrepid Reporter Joe's next question is not, "Have you considered that most women, regardless of their race, do not enjoy being hit on as they walk from point A to point B?" Instead, he asks, rhetorically,
So why the hell do you take Columbia Road home and why live in Mount Pleasant, anyway, if you can’t tolerate a few catcalls?
Maybe because it's the fastest route to my apartment, you asshole!? Intrepid Reporter Joe is not quite at the point yet where his reptilian brain can handle the idea that maybe it's men's responsibility to keep their traps shut; that they don't have a right to yell at every passing woman about her body.
Then he writes, "Klinger knows the argument about how catcalling is part of Hispanic culture and how she shouldn’t impose her values on others." I'm sorry, but men of all cultures harass women. And women of all colors are on the receiving end of harassment. In her essay, Klinger writes,
White men don't do this to me with the same frequency, so when I pass a group of them on the street, I don't clench my jaw, tense up, and walk faster. But when I pass Latino men, I assume the worst. Black men, too, sometimes, since after Latino men, they harass me the most. Hell, if you're at all brown, I'm gonna get worried. So I have this conflict every damn day.
Wow. So is this just honest, or totally racist, or both? I can say that, while I've most definitely been harassed by men of all ages and races, I feel like I receive more harassment from men of color on the street, and more harassment from white men in bars. Is it racist of me to speak to my experience, that street harassment directed toward me is more likely to come from men of color? I don't think it is. (But I do think there's a discussion to be had here.) But I do think it's racist to make general statements that Latino and black men are harassers and white men are not. I like the statement from this site:
Different people may find themselves harassed more by different people, depending on where they live and specifics of their community. Sometimes some groups of people are outside and in the streets more often then other groups. Think before generalizing.
The folks at Hollaback are sensitive to the race issue, and have an antiracism statement on their site. The one time I submitted a cellphone photo of some guys who had harassed me on the street, they informed me that there might be a wait to see my incident appear on their blog, as they make a conscious effort to publish photos of street harassers of all races. And they explicitly ask that submissions not mention race unless it is somehow relevant to the incident of harassment.
A DC street harassment blogger writes,
I came home Saturday feeling hurt, frustrated and just plain angry at the mess I deal with on the streets. I went to the neighborhood I used to live in, Petworth, to check out Domku and Flip It (the former is a sleek restaurant and the latter a sweet bakery...check them out). I had my path blocked by these men, was followed, had men stopping in the middle of the road trying to talk to me, beeping their horns so loudly that I jumped, had men coming too daggone close on the sidewalk, and calling me names such as "shorty," "baby," and other stupid nonsense. The thing that bothers me the most about Saturday's ordeal with the men on the streets is that all of my harassers were black. It upsets me, makes no sense, and had me getting on the Internet to try to find answers. Why do so many Black men do this mess to me, a Black female, on the streets?
Klinger's piece doesn't even begin to do this issue justice. The intersection of race and harassment is a big and complicated issue -- not exactly manageable subject matter for just three paragraphs in a flip essay. Which is also why I'm not a huge fan of Jezebel's take on these three City Paper pieces:
Which is to say, it's what, at most five seconds of discomfort for a lifetime of funny stories? We have fucked dudes to achieve the same result!
Ok, I'll bite and play humorless feminist on this one. I, for one, don't particularly like it when a strange man on the street grabs my elbow and says, "There's a nice pussy." (True story. Shudder.) While I do sort of keep a mental catalog of, shall we say, most original cat-calls I've received ("I'd climb that tree!"), their cumulative effect is much greater than five seconds of discomfort a day. It's a reality of life that affects how I dress, where I walk, how safe I feel. Which is to say it's usually not very hilarious.
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Wow the whole, "why is she there if she can't take it" thing sounds an awful lot like "why was she wearing that if she didn't want it" excuse for rape. They published this? I'm going to go puke now.
I never know what the appropriate response is to street harassment. I was walking across a plaza in the city the other day, and heard a "hey baybee," which I ignored - mostly because it didn't occur to me that it was addressed to me, but also because that would have been my response had I realized it was directed at me.
The next thing I heard was "Are you pregnant? Or are you just FAT?" Now, it happens that I am visibly pregnant, and it was clear to me that the "fat" comment was meant as punishment for ignoring him. I continued on my way and didn't respond, but I couldn't shake the feeling that my response was inappropriate somehow. And that feeling stuck with me. Still has, a bit. I wonder if that same guy is going to be there every time I walk across the plaza now. It kind of sucks.
I've lived in various parts of DC for a few months and I've gotta say I've experienced more street harassment here than in any other city, don't know what's up with that... And I agree the original article is shitty... even the cover of the paper, just shitty...
i'm home with strep today and actually forced myself out of bed to go get orange juice. i'm on the corner when a truck drives by and i hear kissy noises directed at me. i immediately flipped him the bird and then crossed the street wishing i had instead spat my germed spit in his face. asshole.
Just for curiosity, can we all post a quick blurb about the most disconcerting harassment we've ever gotten, and then the most benign street harassment? I'm just curious... I'll start.
WORST: I was walking home late last night and a drunk guy who asked to walk me home grabbed my arm and would let it go. I protested for awhile and then finally told him to fuck off (much to my relief he let me go w/o a fight). A close second might be the 50 yr-old guy who tried to argue me into going on a date with him at a bus stop, using lots of explicit sexual detail. Of course I've gotten "whore" "bitch" "$20 baby" all that too.
more benign: It didn't make me smile, but I didn't mind it that much either. I was walking down the street and the guy across the street yelled "You've got beautiful eyes" and then just kept going. Also the other day an old guy was like "you shouldn't walk on those legs, you might ruin them". A little annoying maybe, but I did think it was kinda funny.
I conclude that street harassment is the worst in my view when someone is insulting and/or persistant.
I've also lived in various parts of DC - including Mt. Pleasant - and in my experience this kind of racist talk about street harassment has been increasing. I've heard descriptions of Latinos "loitering" and "harassing" and more - but I didn't see so much of that. It seems like street harassment in DC is turning into racist code language that has as much to do with people's discomfort in non-white-dominated areas as anything else. Which is why pieces like this don't bother to focus on any women's experiences, any feminist critique, or any recommendations about how to fight street harassment. And for the record - street harassment was worse in Georgetown, in my experience.
Great post, Ann. I'd just like to add that, along with catcalls and obnoxious shouts for attention, men who stare and "rubberneck" absolutely set me over the edge. I know it's not quite as bad as being verbally harassed, but it's extremely uncomfortable just the same.
i've seen so many hot dogs in the subway you could open an Oscar Mayer factory in the 5 boroughs.
cindyliz,
I also am not a proponent of using street harassment as a forum for racist discussion. However, I lived in PG Plaza and have got to say that I received far more frequent harassment there (from primarily latino immigrants) than I have at anytime in my life, like, anywhere. My three female roommates all said the same thing. And truth be told, modern Mexican culture does tend to be extremely macho. Plenty of latinas will agree. I agree that street harassment period should be the focus of discussions on street harassment, but don't just assume that any woman saying they get harassed more by people of a certain group/culture are just being racist.
I can't fucking stand street harassment. And I am not at all desensitized to it because for the most part when I leave the house it's with my large Scottish-descended fiance. There was a time period of six months where every time I left the house without him I got cat called at least once. It made me want to wear bulky sweatshirts and just put my head down all the time. I want to flip them off but I just ignore them because honestly, who knows when one of them might turn out to be a total psycho? And it doesn't seem to matter what I wear at all. I'll wear an ankle length hippie skirt and t-shirt and get it, or jeans or any number of things. I tend to think the ones who actually give me compliments ("Hey, that's a really pretty skirt" as we pass each other) are fairly harmless though it still makes me uncomfortable. But the whistling and "hey babys" really get to me for some reason.
I'm not trying to be racist, but I have to say, most of the harassment I've received is from Hispanic men. According to my stepsister, who's travelled extensively through Latin & South America, it's more common for ment to shout shit at women, so I guess it's cultural.
Either way, it's not cool. I just got a camera-phone & I plan on snapping the next street harasser & sending his ugly mug to HollabackNYC.
Worst/scariest: "You're fucking dead." (I had never seen these men before, I crossed at the green light when all traffic was stopped and had not crossed any driveways since then, so I could not have been engaging in 'bad pedestrian behavior' and the guy who yelled, the passenger, stuck his head out of the window and turned it so he could continue yelling as the car drove by. Had my ipod in, so it took a while for it to sink in.)
Best/funniest: "I love you, punky brewster!" (HS kid.)
Occasionally, I get a guy trying to get me into his car, which I find frightening. I also hate HATE HAAAAATE men who insist that you smile for them on the sidewalk. And I want to destroy every idiotic frat dude is ever shouted at me from a car. Interestingly, a male friend of mine gets it once in a while from men which includes a very disturbing episode in a Target bathroom.
one of my favorite recent threads on the topic:
http://williamsboard.com/topic/38898/&r=125
it gets even funnier when one of the guys jokingly asks, "sheesh, what noises do we have to make to get a stranger to sleep with us?" The answers include, "hubba hubba!" "Heavens to Betsy!" and, "boop-boop-boop reversing noises while walking backwards to look at me again."
Keep in mind, lots of us are so immune to it at this point that we don't even give it a seond thought. they're gonna have to be more clever than a "HISSSSSSSSSSSSSS," kissy sounds, or "you got a minute?" for us to even notice their existence.
one that did make me laugh once, a very smooth, "don't break too many hearts tonight." also, the other week when my bf and I were walking, this guy walked past and said, "you're the LUCKY guy." I turned to my bf and said, "why yes you are!!"
Hum, I agree with Nina. Street harassment takes on a whole new area of scary when they're stalking you from behind, following you for a few blocks... and that's even before we get to what they like to say during it all.
The part I hated the most is where that 16yo kid actually got offended when a stranger refused to acknowledge his presence. What is up with that? How is just being out in public, a valid reason for this guy to size you up and insist upon having some of your time and attention?
I remember the first time I got catcalled. I was 12 and walking to CVS with my friend. We were wearing huge winter jackets. A latino man, probably around 50, whistled and stared as he passed. I felt disgusted and bewildered, especially because I was only a 12 year old girl. It made me afraid to leave my house, since this happened on my street. I don't see how this can be taken so lightly by males AND females. When I got flashed on my way to school when I was 15, my mom was comforting but told me, frankly, that it's something that all women have to deal with. She told me stories about men masturbating on the DC metro into her jacket (it has happened to her twice). I'm in college now, and walk everywhere, so I'm even more wary of street harassment. Just yesterday on my way back from class, a guy called me "shorty" and asked my name. I told him I didn't have to give him my name and walked quickly away. I could hear him say "Damn, all I wanted to make was small talk" as if I was OBLIGATED to be nice to him. I swear, the next asshole that tries to "compliment" me while I'm walking, I'll give him an ear full.
Check out "Back Off! How to Confront and Stop Sexual Harassment." Great, practical, helpful book for women.
pretty convoluted, confused post. i'd suggest a little more consideration before pulling the trigger next time.
my anecdotal experience has been that darker girls (black, brown) get harassed a lot more than white girls. not sure if that's true or not, but has seemed like it to me. i feel like men just think that darker (non-white) women will either be more accepting of the abuse b/c of the whole hip-hop culture thing, or maybe because minority women just have less rights than white women, so will have less power to fight back in any number of ways.
i was shocked to see a black, uniformed UPS guy in DC, in broad daylight, mackin/catcalling on some honey in broad daylight. I remember thinking, 'wtf' - like, astonished. i thought UPS was better than that, somehow. did it matter to the story that the dude was black? no idea now, but i felt like it was important at the time - not sure why now - maybe because she was black and if it was a white girl I can't imagine a black UPS driver harassing a white girl in broad daylight - just wouldn't happen. but there's a whole new standard applied to non-white girls - they're fair game for some reason.
and i've seen dirty cops of all colors catcalling and all sorts of stuff to all kinds of girls. fd: i hate cops.
I was walking back to my office after lunch today and a really old man (I mean, wizened, toothless and walking with a cane) grabbed my arm, gave me a really obvious once over then licked his lips and said "you're a bit of all right, aren't you?". Depressing to know they don't grow out of it.
Interesting. I think about this issue everyday, as in my neighborhood (I am not exaggerating) I get harassed every five seconds on average, no matter what I wear and despite the fact that I am of average looks. It's usually pretty harmless- leering and honking, but some are nasty and it happens so often I get progressively more annoyed. Plus, I have anxiety and the surprise of the honking or shouting has often scared the wits out of me. I really don't know what to do or say about it.
In response to some of the previous comments, I guess the more charming ones are when the attitudes are non-threatening. A non-aggressive, self-pitying "will you marry me?" has made me smile. The scariest time was actually when I was twelve, in Italy, and two men wouldn't stop following my friend and me for almost an hour, making lewd gestures and saying god knows what (we ended up running through some streets and alleys, making unexpected turns, to "lose them," because loitering by the policemen for half and hour didn't deter these assholes - stupid, I know, but we had to meet our mothers).
I wish I knew what to say or do about the issue. And that article you quotes was extremely offensive.
I was filling up gas in a gigantic red sweatshirt, baggy jeans, and sandals. I wasn't in a bikini dry humping my car and using the gas pump as a whip, so I guess my shock was justified when a man in a bright gold Jeep Cherokee with pumping rap music pulls up next to my parked car, rolls down the window and screams out, "WHAT'S HAPPENIN', BITCH?" I gave him the dirtiest look I could, ignored him, finished pumping gas, got into my car and sped off. It wasn't until I was safely away I burst into laughter because it reminded me of the "Holla" guy on the Chappelle Show. Then I had a seriously existential "Am I feminist without humor?" moment because I found the Holla guy annoying and mildly funny...*on tv*. Some of the most notorious comedic sexists (Zapp Brannigan from Futurama comes to mind) are my favorite to watch as long as I believe they are fictional satires of ways human beings never should be. Then I go for a walk in the city and that fragile belief is shattered quickly.
Adam's Morgan is by far one of the most harasser-dense areas I have ever been to. At night, men reach out and grab your ass, your arms, and pinch you constantly. Because the streets and sidewalks are so crowded, you can't even confront or see your harasser. It's horrible!
Ninapendamaishi,
I didn't mean to imply that women weren't experiencing street harassment (from any and all races), or to invalidate others' experiences. But for many people, and the media in particular, street harassment is rarely brought up, and usually seems a cover for racist fears about integration and white women walking the streets unsupervised. And I see that discourse happening more and more in DC.
I will never forget my first week of college when I was walking from my dorm to the gym to work out when I had a would-be street harasser staring at me in the most obvious way, and about to make a comment to me when he walked into a parking meter. I couldn't stop laughing. Served him right!
From the original article, about the 16 year old - who the hell does he think he is to call someone a young lady? Young lady sounds like my parents scolding me when I was 12 - 16 year olds do NOT get to call me "young lady" under ANY circumstances (nor do they get to call me or treat me like a "slut" but that should go without saying).
This is so timely, my boyfriend and I were just talking about it the other day. We often run together, but I was getting ready to go out by myself and mentioned that I wasn't going to run by the local (popular and crowded) beach because he wouldn't be there and I just didn't need the harassment that day. He couldn't believe it actually happened (probably because I look like a hideous purple-faced beast when I exercise) and then I realized just how often it does - and the shit I do to avoid it.
My worst one - one that really stuck with me - happened by a construction site at breaktime (I know). One leering guy leans over to his buddy and loudly says "I'd fuck that bitch. I know you wouldn't fuck her ugly ass, but I'd do it". I think the reason it was so awful is that it removed me from the whole conversation - like normally I would tell someone to fuck off or whatever, but it's like I wasn't even there. Gives me the creeps, and the rages.
I've been cat called twice in LA, both by latino men. The first time I was walking home from the subway when the sun was setting and when I was a few blocks away this car starts cruisin me. The guy pulls up and asks me if I want a ride and I tell him no. He doesn't go away just keeps tailin me for another block and asks me again. Again I say NO and this time he pulls him front and turns right and I worry that he's going to block my path at the crosswalk. He doesn't he just keeps going , making me think he's going to come around again so I took off running until I got to my apartment.
The next time I was walking to the grocery store which is a block away and this kid on a bike rushes past me and I hear "oooh, pussy" as he passes by, looking back at me. I will admit that had I known he was going to do that I would have accidentally deliberately kicked his ass off that bike instead of moving to the side to give him room. It might not have been the best thing to do but I wished I could have done it.
Though when I've been home in MO I've had a few black men "roll up" on me. Most memorably when I was washing my car and I was dressed in the worst possible get up (I was washing my freakin' car) and I saw them drive past and pull around and come back (hence my fear years later) and tried to "holla" at me. It was pathetic but I was polite and lied about my name and where I was from.
It can be scary and mostly it's a pain in the ass, I and echo the fears commented earlier that you want to fight back but are afraid of what men will do in retaliation.
I remember once being "hit on" as they say, by a male. Now, I'm no Brad Pitt or... uh... Gregory Peck, so I'm not used to that type of thing. When it happened it made me feel absolutely terrible. It may have been a fleeting encounter but it was enough to ruin my mood. I felt less like an individual and more like an object. I wasn't disgusted because it was a male, I would have felt the same way if it was a female who said the same things to me. I soon began to realize something. Women have to deal with that type of thing nearly every day!
After realizing that, I felt even worse. I felt disgusted at how society treats women because I had experienced a small taste of what they had to deal with. It made me glad that I've never done the same thing, only I never did it because I was shy. Now, I don't do it because it is dehumanizing.
Worst: (race card) I used to have black guys of verying ages come up to me to "talk." Usually while I was very clearly on my way some where, walking through the mall or whatever. They had a tendency to stand way inside my personal space bubble, and got really huffy if I walked on with a mumbled "gotta go." As if I were obligated to stop and talk with them so they could pay me a compliment. I guess it's a cultural thing, (I'm white).
The most entertaining/non-threatening: I was in NYC for the first time, walking towards the statue of liberty with my mom. I was probably 15 or 16. We were at a traffic light and one guy half way runs the light, almost getting broadsided by a guy in a delivery truck. The driver of the truck sticks his head out the window, looks straight at my mom and me, then looks at the driver of the car, still stopped in the middle of the road. Then in pure Brooklyn, hollers, "Hey! You should be watching the road not looking at the beautiful women!"
Ah, New York.
it all makes me so angry. However it's intended, it comes over as inherently threatening, and I'm never sure if that's unintentional, or if that's the whole point. Fact is, 99% of the guys I walk past on my way home are harmless. But I have no way of telling if the guy yelling at me is part of the majority, or one of the 1%... I don't care if they think it's a compliment, I should be able to walk home without having to deal with this shit.
This is so timely, my boyfriend and I were just talking about it the other day.
Hey, us too!
I was in disbelief and pumping him for an explanation as to why I might have been harassed 4 times in the 4 blocks I had just walked to the Stop-N-Rob and back.
The puzzler to me was that I had not combed my hair at all, was wearing clothes selected solely on the basis of their comfort and propinquity to the bed, and was enduring vicious, bloating diarrhea at the time.
Worst: Guy sitting next to me on a Greyhound bus puts his coat on his lap and it slightly overlaps my knee. Proceeds to put his hand on my knee under the coat for about 15 minutes. This was when I was much younger and timid, and I just let it sit there uncomfortably. What the hell was I thinking? I've received much more offensive catcalls in my life, but this one bugs me because I was too cowed to respond appropriately, and he totally got away with it.
Entertaining: I found myself committing a catcall one time. I was on my bike and had passed this guy jogging in the bike lane. I stopped at a red light and he passed me when traffic let up. The light took a long time to turn green. When I finally caught up to him again, it was quite far down the road, and I felt compelled for some reason to yell "Wow, you're fast!" as I whizzed by.
That episode may or may not have crossed the line between friendly and harrassment. I don't know. But in retrospect, if it had been some stranger yelling at me from a faster-moving vehicle, I would have considered it a catcall. It was weird being on that end of things. I'm never going to do it again.
Most disconcerting harrassment? Oh there are several that are about equal to me. Starting when I was 17, in Boston, walking down the street with two girfriends. Two guys slowed down in their car and scoped us out, then parked, got out and began to follow us. "what's your name? Where are you going? Where do you live?" We walked, crossing the street, taking random turns, anything we could to drop them, but they followed us until we came upon a taxi at a stop light and jumped in.
Another scary one, in London: I can't remember what the guy said to us, but my flatmate and I were walking home late at night. After we ingored him, he managed to follow us and see what building we went into, and then spent the next 1/2 hour or so pounding on the door of our building, screaming for us to let him in.
There were lots of scary ones in London. Men yelling at me to get into their cars, demanding it really. Following me for blocks, saying the most disgusting things. I quickly learned all the places that I could easily duck into to get away from them, got to know the people working there so that I could trust them to help me if I needed it, got to know the bouncer at the club up the street so that we could go get protection from him when men tried to follow us home.
Now I live in Seattle and I haven't had nearly as bad stuff happen, but cat calls frequently, lots of "hey beautiful" and "smile for me." One very drunk man trying to got grabby and tried to get my friend or me to get into a cab with him. We were outside a club, with tons of other people around and no one said anything to him.
I can't remember one humorous one. Is it ever humorous to be harassed?
Reading this thread, I find myself embarrassed to be a man. I just don’t get the whole cat-call thing. I guess it is a cultural thing (blaming it on race is simply inane).
"Just for curiosity, can we all post a quick blurb about the most disconcerting harassment we've ever gotten, and then the most benign street harassment? I'm just curious... I'll start."
The closest I've received to street harassment was "You have nice legs" in a semi-quiet tone of voice. So that's my entry for worst.
These comments about what we're wearing when we're harrassed (ugly clothes, messy hair, bloated pimply face, etc.) just show that it's not about "admiring beauty" or "being overwhelmed with biological sexual urges" or other ridiculous excuses. It's the same old power and control motivations behind rape, belittlement, and objectification.
Read this today on the Red Line on the way into work in Pretentia, er, Farragut North, and was thinking all the while, "Feministing is going to unload on this."
An interesting fact about Washington is that blue-collar white people are almost non-existent here. Unlike in fairly nearby Baltimore, you just don't see broke-ass white people inside the Washington Beltway, period. You want to find a redneck bar or Archie Bunker bar, you pretty much have to go 15-20 miles almost halfway to Baltimore up Route 1 to Randy's California Inn in north Laurel, where they've got a Hank Williams' "If the South woulda won the War, we would have had it made" Confederate Flag on the wall. Point is, if catcalling is blue collar courting, aggression or both, you won't likely see a bunch of white lawyers doing it on the street. They will be committing more well-planned sexual harassment not of strangers but of subordinates and even colleagues, inside. (Sexual harassment is theoretically disbarrable in DC, I rule I respect; in my mind, it's worse than putting slugs in a parking meter and they disbarred for that in Maryland once.)
The worst was when I was younger (like jr. high) and high school kids would yell crap like "wanna fuck that albino bitch?" from their cars. Granted that I'm very white, I was not prepared to deal with any of the ramiofications of a statement like that when I was 12. I still have a lot of conflicting feelings about the intersections of race and street harassment, BUT I have been groped and verbally harassed in much more explicit ways by white men than anyone else, which convinces me that not only do men of all races harass, the power dynamics are such that I am in no more physical danger from men of color, and probably less.
Best feeling ever: my sister and I were walking down Sunset strip in LA to a concert when a guy hanging out at the entrace to a club reached out and grabbed her ass. It was a crowd, but I was directly behind her so I grabbed his wrist and shoved it so that his elbow went directly into his groin (he was actually leaning over to reach), and told him to keep his hands off. The bouncer saw, I think, because he smiled and nodded approvingly as we passed. The dude looked like he was gonna puke.
So it is not ok to point out that around my house (a mostly white suburb) I have almost exclusively been harassed by latino men? Its true. Its especially creepy because there are a lot of latino men living around the local junior high where my sister just graduated from, and these guys tend to harass the 6th-8th graders! Its so gross, they aren't even old enough to consent to sex.
White men probably don't have to harass us on the street, they can screw women in so many other ways.
Interestingly enough, when I was in Chicago, I was harassed far less than when I am home in the suburbs. I don't know if those men had other people to harass, or they just had better things to do.
My scariest instances of street harassment: In high school, a group of black guys started chasing me across campus, chucking ice & lollipops at me (It was wintertime), & threatening to rape me. I ended up running to the library, calling my mom who called the cops, & spent the rest of the afternoon behind the librarian's desk b/c I was scared the guys would come for me.
*Second worst: There's a church near the library I go to. I've had to totally change my route to avoid walking past the church b/c of how much harassment I was getting. Mostly, it was crazy homeless guys threatening to rape me & asking what white pussy was like.
I haven't really thought of the "how you doin' shorty?" bullshit as catcalling before. I always felt obligated to smile or nod my head in acknowledgment, because just ignoring the comments made me feel bitchy...or maybe the fact that ignoring them usually prompts the harrasser to call me a bitch has something to do with it.
Oddly enough, I've been talking about this a lot with my boyfriend recently, too. A lot of men just don't seem to be aware that it happens, or that it goes beyond construction workers whistling or something - he knew about, for example, Japan's problems with subway groping, but was astonished to hear that I've had the same thing happen here, more than once, on the DC Metro. It seems like a lot of guys think that incidents like that are isolated, freak occurrances, instead of being nonstop daily reality for a lot of women. Some of that may be due to the fact that at least in my experience, you get a lot less harassment if you're accompanied by a man, so they just don't see it as often.
Worst episodes I've experienced? Well, the dudes rubbing their crotches on my ass when the Metro is crowded definitely skeeve me out, but lately the creepiest thing happened at my favorite bar. There was this dude who was playing Creepy McGrabberson with all the women in the bar, who tried to force me to get up and dance with him, and when I refused, put out his hand like he was going to pat my shoulder in sort of an "oh, okay" fashion, but instead, grabbed my breast briefly, and then just turned and walked away. I think it was the walking away that made it even creepier - it was like he was saying "I can do this to you, and I don't even have to wait for your reaction".
I haven't noticed a racial imbalance in the population of harassers, though - I live in Mt Pleasant, and while I do get more harassment there from black and Latino men, I think that has more to do with the makeup of the neighborhood than anything else - I get catcalled and grabbed by white fratboy types in Adams Morgan, and both times that I've had some guy rubbing his crotch on me on the Metro, it's been a middle-aged white guy in a suit.
I just wish I could be more forthright about telling harassers to back off - when they guy in the bar grabbed my tit, I just sort of stared at him stupidly as he walked away. It doesn't even occur to me to react until later, because it's just so common - and that really pisses me off.
Ack, sorry for the novel - this subject is just sort of on my mind a lot lately.
I live in a very diverse community and have to admit that I've been catcalled by men of every color under the sun. I have noticed that white boys tend to utilize the holla' from the car method more often than anybody else.
What a stupid fucking article by the guy:
"Contreras is a nice guy who seems to have an incredible, almost insatiable attraction to women. The way he describes it, he’s like a Boy Scout, on the lookout to help any woman with anything she needs, to make her life more comfortable, maybe to pick her up in the process. The catcall is one of his tools."
Such complete bullshit.
It's the long stares that make me most uncomfortable. I can pretend not to hear things called out to me with my ipod on (though this week I had a guy yell "Miss" louder and louder before finally jumping in front of me while I was walking down a busy street, pretending not to hear).
It's really not about race or ethnicity. It isn't about some ethnicities harassing more than others. It's about power and domination. Men of all races harass, and women of all races are harassed. When men of one race harass a women of another, there's a whole other system at play than male-oppressor / female oppressed. And that isn't specific to any race or races, that's endemic to the whole dynamic of race.
Women who've shared experiences of being harassed by men of a certain (other) race aren't wrong in their perceptions. Yes, they were being harassed by men who were Latino (or Black, or Italian....). But the fact that they were Latino or Black or Italian isn't why they harass, it's because they're MEN.
Okay, I'm calling bullshit on that one dude from Texas. I'm a woman in Texas, and we don't respond to catcalls with a warm smile and a flirty giggle, and I am mildly put off by the assertion that all us white bitches love Mexican dudes. I am sure plenty of white women down here date Mexican men, but then again, interracial relationships aren't uncommon anymore, even here in the Deep South.
Probably the worst run-in I ever had was when I was like 14 or 15. I was walking to a restaurant to meet some friends and some dudes in their car were waiting to turn out on to the main street and the guy in the pasenger's seat was all, "Hey baby let me get your number." Of course I was shy and socially awkward and I sort of mumbled no, and he got all pissed. I remember exactly, he said, "Oh I see, you don't like black men!" I stammered something along the lines of, "No, I don't talk to strange men in crappy cars." And then I had to walk IN FRONT OF THEIR CAR to cross the street. I was mortified. Other than that, I haven't had any really serious run-ins. I used to hate walking to school though, because they were developing two big empty lots across the street, so I couldn't make the trip without getting some "hollas" from the construction workers. And the occasional honk or whistle from a passing car.
Y'all, so ridiculous. I was like, this fat, dumpy white girl with bad hair who wore baggy jeans and black t-shirts during my whole high school career. I think they were doing it just to fuck with me. Anyway, I'm glad I have a car now.
I think the scariest time was when I was about 16-17 and was out running by the river. Some creepy old dude (at least mid-30s) pulls up in a crappy vehicle and tells me that he has been "watching me" while I run and wants to "get together". Creepy creepy creepy.
Today I was walking the puppy and was feeling pretty good (esp since no comments so far) and some young fellow yells "Sluts!" out of the window of his van. It was interesting that he used the plural, b/c it means that he was calling both me and my dog a slut.
Another time: Walking along at our local frat row and a couple guys sitting in front of one of the houses started asking us if we wanted to come in and party. We kept walking, at which point one of them said "Damn, she's a fat ass" (I think he was referring to me...I'm a slender girl, but have a big booty). Nice.
I agree that Klinger's piece is poorly written, but she dumps the racist stuff at least halfway in and starts writing about serious issues -- the actual dynamics behind harassment.
Well, Klinger is a woman of color. I actually think that the fact that she is harassed by black men and not by white men is somewhat intriguing, especially considering the supposed power dynamics of white men thinking they're entitled to the bodies of black women. Nevertheless, to me, the gist of the article is more along the lines of asking why black and Latino men seem to participate in street harassment so disproportionately.
She makes it clear that she doesn't like feeling this way. I frequently feel that way as well. When I was younger and stupider, I might tense up when passing a black guy because of a dumb fear of crime. Now I tense up because of a fear of harassment. The thing is, while I've never been the victim of a crime, I have been the victim of harassment many times -- almost exclusively at the hands of black and Latino men.
There are serious questions that can be asked about what cultural factors influence street harassment and how that can be addressed. I doubt the personal experiences of most women (who I know anyway) count for nothing. The fact is that any woman who lives in an urban environment has to deal with this. The anecdotal evidence seems to point to black and Latino men being overrepresented among street harassers*. Why is this and what can be done about it?
*And when I say disproportionate, I mean disproportionate in relation to the surrounding community. For example, Klinger claims that she's usually harassed by Latino men, but what is the actual percentage of Latinos in Washington, D.C.? Dollars over donuts that it's a hell of a lot lower than the percentage of African Americans.
Why not? The days of black men being lynched for the crime of just looking at white women are over.
I've been harassed by black men many, many times in broad daylight and late at night. I don't know if women of color are harassed more often, but harassers rarely seem to discriminate.
Which actually reminds me of my worst harassment story:
I was walking along the north side of Washington Square and a guy started laughing, making grunting noises and such. He then blocked my path and refused to let me pass. He was backed up by his buddies as well. The most frustrating thing for me is the memory of my doing nothing about it. I just kept my head down and hoped it would be over soon. I wish I had kicked him in the nuts.
I was trying to think of specific instances, but it's all so frequent it blurs together in my mind. I get told I have "joshing" lips (blowjob). I hate the random "accidental" gropings. I won't go out dancing due to the frequency of hard-ons pressed against me. But I agree with the poster who said the worst is the unapologetic leering.
I wanted to mention an experience of my friend. A very happy young man ran up to her and briefly tickled her crotch, singing "deedledeedledee!" and then skipped off. I was horrified to hear it, but she said it wasn't as disturbing as much as simply confusing, as it was so offensive and yet weirdly funny.
Oh, another thing. I go to school at a military graduate /medical school in the DC area, and currently we are under-going some seemingly neverending renovation project. The men who are working on this project regularly leer at the women who attend the school (even though most of us are in uniform). I've noticed it less frequently recently...maybe enough people complained and someone in admin had a "chat" with the contractor.
funny, sort of - about midway through my run I was taking a walk break, sweaty, out of breath, bright red face, frizzy/stringy hair, grungy shorts @ 7 am and this kid looks me up and down and says "sexy!" I lost it and started yelling at him asking what right he had to talk to strangers like that? what would his mother think? etc, he sputtered and said sorry, obviously embarrassed.
I live in a slightly rundown part of downtown Jax, fl - most of the catcalls I get in the hood are creepy, typically you get hit up for money first creepiest - the guy asked if he could have some of the chips I was eating (low blood sugar walking back from the grocery) I said no, then he asked if he could "have" me - ewwww. And yeah, in general I'm tired of the why did you go there/wear that excuse as I am with the men in my life - friends, partners, dad, brother, who don't get how demoralizing it can be. Like when I complained about all the harrassment in Italy and I get the "comes with the territory" type responses. gross.
Bad in Pittsburgh? Really? I also live in Pittsburgh, and when I come home, it's a relief to be AWAY from all the cat-calling. Not saying it doesn't happen at night on Carson St with all those bars (it does), but it is nothing NOTHING compared to school.
At school, I live in Waltham, MA, a suburb of Boston, and walk about a mile to campus whenever the weather isn't acting like..well, Boston. I cannot get through a day without 2, 3, 5 cat calls. I usually flip everyone off, but that just makes me so angry and distressed by the time I get to class, I don't even want to walk to campus the next day. It really bugs me when it's gorgeous out. Ruins a beautiful day.
Speaking of random guys saying strange things...
Once in Philadelphia, when I was stepping out of a subway station, some guy came up to me and asked what "mazel tov" meant. I said "congratulations, I think" and he congratulated me.
Another time in the library some other random guy asked me if I was Jewish. I just asked "uh, why?", and he said he wanted to know more about Judaism (so I said I was no expert and he should call a synagogue or ask a librarian).
So now I'm wondering, how often is street harassment anti-Semitic (no matter if the victim actually is Jewish and/or Semitic or just "looks Jewish" like I do)?
Oh! And! Nothing compared to the cat calls my roommate's friend would receive with her long (to the ass) blonde hair.
Or the time I went for a walk at 9 am on a Saturday and some guy wanted to give me a ride....
Or the most enjoyable cat call for me was when my guy was visiting me @ school and we were walking back from lunch. I popped into a convenience store and he went on ahead, so I walked the last 3 blocks. 3. alone.
From across the street some guy with a group of his friends (one was a woman) started whistling. I didn't look over, and he shouted "Hey sweetheart, get your ears cleaned!" I turned around and shouted "Fuck off!" The guy looked embarrassed. The woman started clapping.
And...breathe...I'm done now.
I can't stop. I'm sorry. I need to vent.
When I was in JR high, I used to like being cat called, (oh, silly days before feminism) until the creepiest one ever. Walking home from my bus stop in seventh grade...thats 12 years old...wearing a big poofy winter coat and some 18 or 20 year old guy drives by, puts his fingers over his mouth in the shape of a V and licks in between. 12. I felt dirty for weeks.
I think whoever mentioned class issues was on the money. I have been grabbed at and harassed by wealthier men, but that was either on Bourbon Street in New Orleans, or when they are safe in a car. It's far more common for me to be harassed by working class men. In DC, it has been primarily hispanics when I was in the hispanic neighborhood, when I was in south Chicago, it was primarily black men, and when I am at home in the rural midwest, it's white boys.
I think there may be some cultural trend, especially among latin American men, but I don't think this predisposes me to biases (like, I've met and been friends with some really sweet Latino men. doesn't mean there isn't some sort of a cultural trend)
That's not to say that wealthier or more priviliged men don't harass or control women, but I think they do it in less widely visible ways. (like in elevators. or like the fact that prostitutes in DC are paid higher than anywhere else on the east coast.)
I have never understood why some men think it's okay to yell at and make crude remarks towards complete strangers on the street. I've gotten catcalls since I started walking to middle school when I was 11. It was creepy - men older than my father were yelling and leering at my friends and I. I've gotten it from younger guys too though. When I was 16, I was walking along the beach in my bathing suit (crowded beach, lots of families) and passed these adolescent boys who yelled, "Show us your tits!" I mean, honestly. Do they expect to get some kind of reaction out of this? I just ignored them, but I didn't know what else to do. Now, I would've given them a piece of my mind, but eh, I was more timid then.
I belly dance, and every year my troupe dances in the Christmas parade, and we get tons of catcallers. One guy yelled at me, "girl, if you were breakfast, I'd eat you everyday - I'd be fat offa you!" which was kind of funny in how ridiculous it was, but still disgusting in that he felt it was acceptable to say that to me. Do we deserve it because we were out there dancing and our costumes showed our stomachs? Definitely not. But these men think that it is okay to harass us from the sidewalks, because we are bellydancers. Which brings me to the whole bellydancers are not strippers argument, but that's a whole other story. However, some of these men that stand on the side of the street think that it's appropriate to catcall us because we are participating in an art form that has gotten a bad reputation for being overly sexual. The same people that think that its okay to make comments to a woman who is wearing revealing clothing think that it is okay to yell at us when we are simply trying to perform. We're not asking for it, we're doing what we enjoy. There's no reason to make us uncomfortable for doing that.
I feel like I may get a lot of anger from this, but here goes.
I completely understand where the author is coming from on her racist sentiments. I've felt so much guilt for even grouping people like this, but when you get harassed in this manner daily, it becomes really hard to ignore. I've had conversations about how I feel like a terrible person--admonishing my sisters because they group people aloud, yet now under these circumstances, I do it silently. I don't know if cat-calling is more relaxed in certain cultures abroad or in sub-cultures in the US, but one group has stood out to me.
I've noticed that when I'm harassed in my college town--2 or 3 times a day--80% of the cat calling is done by a particular racial population. Of course, the area I live in is largely populated by this race, so in a numbers sense, it would make sense for about 50% of those calls.
But thats not all. I've found that this particular race tends to do it at creepier moments--at night, on a side street, when I'm getting in my car. Racism is borne out of fear, and in this town, I fear these men. I definitely tense up more when I pass a group of men of this particular race, because more times then not, they will say something when other people won't. I don't make eye contact with any men while walking b/c I am afraid they will say something.
I'm not saying racism is okay, on my part or on hers. Moving to a different neighborhood has helped, but I miss living there. But I know that just because I've been presented with these feelings doesn't mean I shouldn't fight them. Sexual harassment though..it is scary and it makes it easier to have racist feelings out of fear.
Katie,
I dont know if you've had this experience, but personally I've had good friends and gone to school with people of all races. Which means in general the fear doesn't create generalistic feelings about a group of people. I really recommend trying to get to know a lot of people from various walks of life.
I was walking in West Philly with a few of my friends a couple of months ago, and some guy from a truck yells at us "I tried to call you!" Thinking it was some (bad) attempt at hitting on us, we rolled our eyes and kept on walking. About half an hour later, we realize my cell phone is missing. I start flipping out, and grab a friend's phone to try and call it. We see that she has a missed call from me, so I call my number back, and a male voice picks up. When I ask him if he has my phone, he says "Yeah! I yelled out to you girls from my truck, but y'all just blew me off!"
...
Yeah, we laughed at ourselves in disbelief for about an hour later, and I thanked God over and over again that I didn't give him the finger when we first saw him.
--
But in more seriousness: this is a HUGE problem all around the world. When I visit family in Pakistan, walking out of the house is pretty much declaring open season-- everything from inappropriate stares to rude, rude comments. Once, I was walking around a relatively quiet and upperclass/suburbanish neighborhood with a cousin, and one of the construction workers building a house followed us around and yelled "How much?"...we were all of 14 years old. Her little brother was with us and threw a rock at him :). But still, ugh.
MOST FRIGHTENING:
In my old neighbourhood, there is a nasty little redneck bar just across the street from the local supermarket. To give you a general idea, this is the sort of bar where a smoking ban makes the air less breathable.
One night, I was walking home from the supermarket, where I'd bought myself ice cream and smokes. In order to get home, I had to walk in front of the aforementioned shitpit, where two drunk mid-20s white guys with at best questionable hygiene were laughing imbecilically. I remained impassive as I walked by them, as is my custom.
Just as I had gone one step past the two, one of them grabbed my upper arm quite hard. The two stood on either side of me.
The evening having reached that clearly auspicious point, they began to look me over quite closely, variously grunting. I jerked my arm out of the guy's hand and tried to proceed on my way.
No such luck.
The guy who had grabbed my arm now got right up in my face, and screamed, "WHAT, YOU WANNA TAKE A SWING AT ME, BITCH?" I decided that candour was not in my best interest; besides, I was at this point petrified beyond the point of responding at all. I just froze.
In what couldn't have taken more than a few seconds, though it felt like hours, I realised that these guys were clearly quite serious. I ran across six lanes of traffic, and was able at least to gain some distance from them, while they ran after me, the one who had grabbed me yelling "I'M GONNA FUCK YOU AND I'M GONNA KILL YOU."
I took a 45 minute detour home that night. Since then, I don't commit to a side of the street before assessing the available escape routes.
MOST ENTERTAINING:
The public thoroughfare isn't the only place one can get harrassed. I'm sure I'm not the only woman to receive an almost inexhaustible stream of unsolicited, obscene, misspelt instant messages from random wankers who apparently find such things terribly entertaining.
I have found that the online harrassers provide an excellent means of working off the rage and sense of powerlessness that I get from dealing with (read: walking quickly past) the in-person harrasser community. As you might imagine, I've become quite circumspect about saying anything at all to the guys who harrass me on the pavement.
Not so online. Because these Poet Laureates are often hundreds of miles away, I see it as a safe space to say what I would say to the guys in the street if I were absolutely certain that I wouldn't be breaking land speed records subsequently.
For example:
(this is an actual dialogue; the names have changed for ease of reference and truth in advertising)
illitrit_tosser_91: cn i c ur tits
Me: I'm thinking no.
illitrit_tosser_91: u wana c my cock hrd?
Me: I think I'll give that a miss as well.
(beat)
Me: Hey...
illitrit_tosser_91: wut?
Me: I have an idea... ;-)
illitrit_tosser_91: u do?
Me: Indeed. I think you'll like it...
illitrit_tosser: wut??????!?
Me: Hell, this will be great.
illitrit_tosser_91: (clearly growing impatient) WUT????
Me: OK...
illitrit_tosser_91: WUT IZ UR IDEA?
Me: How's about you go jerk off to your mom's Redbook and get the fuck out of my face.
Whereupon, illitrit_tosser_91 ceased to respond, apparently rushing off to do just that.
Ninapendamaishi, Thank you.
I do have friends from different backgrounds, primarily my own, I admit, but others as well. I've never really had a conversation with them about racism because I'm afraid that it's just not okay. And the thing is, I don't have anything resembling racist sentiments in any other situation than fearing harassment or cat-calls. I would never say "all men of that race are assholes" or anything like that. I will happily talk to men of this race in class or even if they try to start a normal conversation with me in a bar or something like that, but just...walking down the street. It's just happened so much it's hard to stop that kind of tense fear or anger.
In the past when I've been walking around my neighbourhood, men smile at me and I smile back...but everybody I pass smiles or says hi, so I respond likewise. I have to admit, I do get the "Why don't you smile" thing quite frequently, but always in a public setting with lots of people around(where other men are sure to take note and be impressed). It makes me so mad because I don't see why women are supposed to walk around with idiotic grins plastered on their faces 24 hours a day.
Seems like I haven't had regular experiences of harrassment living as a woman in Northern Ontario. It could be the region but I've never been cat-called on the street, the city bus, at the mall, at bars, or at University. The only people who've ever "hit on" me or asked me out were people that I had known awhile. When I walk by a construction site, the workers don't even look away from their work or lunch. Maybe they don't cat-call or maybe it's because a third of construction workers here are female. I've probably been at the right place at the right time. Here's hoping the harrassment doesn't start tomorrow.
My scariest experience was late one night, beginning on the subway, where some guy decided to start hitting on me. I tried ignoring him, I tried getting up and changing seats, I tried telling him to fuck off and leave me alone, but nothing worked.
And he followed me off the train, through my very long and isolated walk in the dark from the train, and right into my apartment vestibule, all the while trying to cajole me into going out with him.
I had to literally shove him out my door as hard as I could so I could get in and get the door locked behind me.
And then I had to go up to my apartment and put papers on the floor, because there was no way in hell I was walking my dog after that.
Funniest was actually not very funny, except for my reaction. Again on the train, late one night after getting out of work after a long day. The train was crowded and I stood reading. I didn't realize at first that the guy who was standing right up against me had no real reason to be right up against me, since the train wasn't *that* crowded. And then I realized he was rubbing his crotch into me. I just gave him a wtf look, stepped away, and went back to my book. He didn't follow.
Worst: Yesterday (two days ago, technically) I was walking back from my optometrist's when these kids in a red sports car honked at me and said something to the effect of "Hey, sexy!" I know it's not as confrontational as many of the other "worst case" scenarios, but the honk scared the shit out of me, and the drive-by comment pissed me off.
Funniest: I'm walking down the street with a few college friends (we're going for a snack after taping a show or two for campus TV), when I hear this voice saying "I know my chances are slim to none, and Slim's on vacation..."
The only reason it was at all funny is because we all look across the street, and there's our friend Mickey in his car. Not three hours earlier, he told us how he was flirting with someone in a bar, and that line came out without his even trying.
I've been getting cat-called from cars since I was about 12. Once when I was 13 I was in the city with my parents and a man (25 or older) started asking me where I was from. Before I could answer, my mom just about ripped my arm out of my socket dragging me away muttering about tattooing my birthdate on my forehead. I've had guys try to follow me since I was 14. It doesn't make me feel pretty or complimented, and I've gotten to the point over the years where I almost don't notice it anymore. I've started thinking about it more though, because my sister turns 12 this summer, already has boobs and so far has only been getting shit from her classmates. I'm hoping that grown men don't start harassing her for a while, she's still a child and can't really contextualize it at all. Also, I just don't want her feeling ashamed of her body because some asshole can't keep it to himself.
I had a boyfriend who would always notice guys staring at me (or catcalling me) when we were out together. I just thought it was typical "protective" stuff since he was pretty protective of me. Then one day he told me that he'd left his gym early because a woman had brought her 14 year old daughter in and the way the other men at the gym were looking at her absolutely disgusted him. He couldn't believe it. I told him it had been happening to me (and probably that girl) since I was 12 or 13 and that's just how things are.
I was talking to my boyfriend about this, and how it starts pretty young, and he asked me when it started for me. I told him that I was groped for the first time when I was nine, by an old man in Pakistan. I've never seen anyone look so shocked in my life. It didn't really pick up outside of Pakistan until I was in college in Atlanta, though.
When I was in Atlanta, black guys would cat-call me all the time. When I moved back to Canada, it's never happened. The black guys who ask me to dance at the bar are the most polite of any race, and leagues beyond their Georgian counterparts. I can't explain it, because the white guys are far worse here, so it's not like Canadians are just more polite.
My worst experience ever was being groped at nine, and twelve, and fifteen, all in Pakistan. I haven't been back since. Except for when I was nine, I was always wearing traditional clothes. At nine, I was wearing shorts, and when my parents found out, that was the last time I got to wear shorts outside of gym class or our house until I was an adult.
My worst experience in Atlanta was mere hours after I'd arrived from Canada for the first time. I'd stopped to tie my shoe, and my dad kept walking. An SUV then stopped beside me and all four (white) guys in it started yelling various crude remarks before speeding off. (To this day, I'm still surprised that my father didn't take me back to Canada after that incident.) I was wearing jeans and a t-shirt.
My worst experience in Canada was when a guy who was standing outside on a night when it was twenty below with windchill started screaming at me to "suck [his] balls and warm [him] up." I was wearing a snowboarding jacket and jeans.
As an aside, my boyfriend gets cat-called by women all the time. He tells me when it happens, and sometimes, it seems like he gets it more than I do. But here's the thing - he's six feet tall. He weighs 180 lbs. He can bench well over his body weight. And he's a track star - he once outran a DOG. So why should he care if a 5' tall woman yells at him to take his shirt off when he's running? He doesn't even need to be concerned about an average-sized guy. It's just funny to him, because he doesn't have to live in fear of an actual threat.
For years I was afraid of black men (not in general, just on the street) because I was exclusively harrassed by them. They wouldn't just catcall me, they would follow me and try to talk to me. This has happened to me about 6 times. The scariest was the man who sat next to me in Boston while I was waiting for a train and he asked to touch my hair. I was so scared I let him do it. So he literally petted my hair while chatting me up. Sooo creepy. When the train came I ran away from him.
Recently I've been approached by men of other races and so now am wary of all men. Another scary incident was when a man fondled my scarf on the metro (in Montreal). Then he went to stand behind me. When I tried to get off the metro he grabbed my coat so I couldn't move. I turned around and gave him a dirty look and he let go.
Grossest was probably the foot fetish guy I saw on the metro touching women's shoes.
But I've also been catcalled in ways that I don't find scary or bothersome. I've gotten lots of hellos and compliments. Such as "those jeans are beautiful" (they were hand-painted). Once I passed a group of men and one of them said "hello, yes, no?" in a sort of desperate voice. I found it amusing. Also amusing was when a group of college boys passed me and one of them said "my friend likes you".
I don't consider it catcalling if a man simply says hello. Like the construction worker who was working on a street that I passed by on my way to work. He was there for a couple of weeks and would always greet me with a friendly goodmorning. That experience actually convinced me that the catcalling construction worker is just a stereotype. Actually, I've seen a ton of construction workers in my life and never once been harrassed by any of them. Most of the harrassment I've experienced has been on public transportation.
This particular post makes me really angry. I have been dealing with cat calling for the last decade or so, like most women. However, if a man is following you home, if he is making threatening gestures, or THROWING BRICKS, that is a different matter. Call the police, make noise, scream, do anything you can to attract attention to yourself. The worst that can happen is that you embarass yourself. If you keep quiet you run the risk of being assaulted. If a man is following you home in the middle of the night, CALL THE POLICE! It's what they are there for, to protest you. Don't become a victim, make noise.
I remember when I first moved to DC, about seven years ago, I was stunned by the catcalling. I'd lived my whole life in Massachusetts before that and had never experienced that. I assumed it was a Southern thing. I never thought to make a mental note of the race of the guys doing it, I was just stunned by the strangeness of it, and how it never seemed to matter what I was wearing (I've never been a sexy dresser). The incident that sticks with me most is my friend's bachelorette party, where we went to a club somewhere downtown and guys were slowing down in their cars on the street to watch us walk by. I never experienced the kind of scary/threatening stuff other people have mentioned in the comments though; it was all just baffling. I've always just ignored it, because I assumed it's like teasing - they're looking for a reaction, and if you give it to them they'll keep it up. From reading the comments I see it's not always that simple, so I guess I've been lucky? Anyway, I haven't lived in DC in three or four years and I can't remember a single incident since then, even though I am out walking/taking public transit at least as much now as I was then.
This is not the first time DC's City Paper has run a jawdroppingly brazen mysoginistic cover story (http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/display.php?id=236) and I'm sure it won't be the last. The reliably poor writing seems to be the biggest reason I've only ever heard the paper referred to derisively among city residents.
I live in DC and the harassment here is much worse than any other city I've lived in, meaning it's much more frequent and generally more offensive. It's also, as far as I can tell, not confined to a few neighborhoods. My own experience supports Anne's in that while black men (or latino) are most often the ones who approach me on the street, white guys in bars or clubs are often the most obnoxious and pushy. Perhpas the weirdest thing about DC, though, is that being with my boyfriend is NEVER a guarantee that I won't be harassed, in spite of the fact that he's a big, gym going guy. Usually it just involves a lot of leering, although occasionally a guy will say something to me if we are not standing next to one another at that moment.
At my undergrad university, a friend of mine did an article for the college paper about harassment on campus. The most memorable thing about it was that some of the harassers she spoke to insisted that women liked the attention, even after she informed them that all of the women she talked to said they disliked it and that it did not make them feel good. How do you even get through to guys lke that?
Oh yeah, ameyray. My god, everyone slows down in their bloody cars here. The pattern is they slow down, and once they're a tiny bit beyond me, they rev their engine. It's so bizarre and yet absolutely reliable. And Kate, I got the lovely V-tongue thing when I was 12, too. I feel that the men do this to children so openly and crudely makes evident the predatory nature of it all- the kids don't know how to respond. Yech. It gives me the shivers. I wish I could stop it.
It's interesting that everyone is mentioning that Latino men are more likely to catcall... that's always been my experience but I have always assumed it is because I am Hispanic and they... like Hispanic women, or think I'll like them, or something. A few of them have talked to me in Spanish (which I speak a little of). A friend of mine started getting a lot of harrassment when she had her first girlfriend and they would walk holding hands. She mentioned the same thing that the writer did, that she would start to tense up if she saw a Latino or black guy (though not if he was wearing a suit) and she felt really sick about it. So, I vote for honest. The writer doesn't say all catcallers are x race, she says this is her experience.
I've never had a really scary one, though I've had a lot of guys ask to be my "friend" and talk to me excessively. One guy did this after staring at me for the entire shuttle ride to the airport. Then I was in an unfamiliar terminal so he asked if I needed help, and he pointed the way, and then he asked and I think I said something about I had to go and I don't live there anyway, but he looked pissed, like, wtf? Another guy did a similar thing after I told him I was a freshman in college. The guy was at least 30.
Most disturbing was when I was about 13, an older kid at camp kept putting his hand on my ass. I wasn't even totally sure it was on purpose till I told my friend and she said he'd been doing the same thing to her. We told our counselor, who had us tell the boys' side leader, who was a really sweet guy and extremely understanding but still, I felt so awful and sick saying something as simple as "he put his hand on my butt." I can't imagine what it must be like to testify in a rape case.
The funniest was probably the day I got hit on three times. First by the smoothie guy in Penn Station, who told me he found my look refreshing (of course a half hour later I realized that the proper response was to take a sip and then say, "And I find your smoothie very refreshing!")
Then in South Station when I was getting ready to go there this guy who was, he said in his mid-to-late 20s. He was apparently a student at Harvard Law, half Venezuelan, and a former boxer. He asked me why I looked so sad, and I jumped because I am crazy jumpy (seriously, last night I screamed because my mom came into my room(, and he asked if I was afraid of black men. I told him, no, just men in general. He started talking and wouldn't shut up.
The best part of the conversation was probably when he asked me how old I was, and I said 17 (truth at the time) and then--I shit you not--he asked when I was turning 18! Also, after I not-so-casually dropped in some mentions of my BOYFRIEND, in hopes of getting him to leave, he asked me if we ever saw other people, and when I told him no, he asked why not!! (nothing wrong with that in theory but it's still weird to ask...) Also WTF I WAS TEN YEARS YOUNGER THAN HE WAS.
Finally my train arrived so I ran off. He held his hand out longingly and said, "And I'm never going to see you again, huh?" I said, "Nice meeting you!"
AND THEN. I was so spaced out from the weirdness of the encounter that I almost ran past the train conductor checking tickets. He called me back and said, "You were distracted, huh! Were you thinking of me?" I think I made a noise like "huh?" and he said, "I don't know how you could have been so distracted if you weren't thinking of me!"
By the way, the smoothie guy was light Hispanic, the station dude was black Hispanic, and the train conductor was white like paper.
Interestingly, when I relayed the story to my then-boyfriend via email, he responded telling me that on his plane trip to Japan, a stewardess walked by, looked at his shorts-clad legs, called him "hot legs", and walked on. Later when he was standing up (it is like a 12 hour flight) she came over and put her hand on his ass! which has never happened to me thank God. And then she did it twice more. Creeepy.
I was in a nightclub a couple of years back and trying to squeeze past some people at the bar to get through to the other room, but not having much luck.
This guy sitting at the bar grabs my arse and starts fondeling it, kneading it almost, fingers roaming. Because I was stuck in amongst so many people I couldn't get away from him, and couldn't reach behind me to do anything more than swat ineffectively at him. I had to stand there with him doing that until the folk in front of me shifted. He had plenty to say, too.
It still makes me feel sick to think of it.
Sorry, this is somewhat a sidebar, but these series of posts makes me think how valuable feministing.com could be as a formal teaching tool.
I am teaching a gender class next spring and I've been trying to think of ways to incorporate feministing.com into the class (e.g., have students read one blog and then post and respond, etc.).
This "hey baby" blog seems perfect. Many of you have shared very powerful stories about your experiences, which will make the topic of harrassment and objectification feel more real to the students. Reading this blog as an assignment would really spur discussion.
It also provides a lead to talking about body image issues - how objectification of women's (and men's) bodies leads people to constantly worry how they are perceived by others.
Kate,
I do have friends from different backgrounds...I've never really had a conversation with them about racism because I'm afraid that it's just not okay.
depending on the relationship, it probably is OK. Think about it like this: What if a male friend wanted to talk about a response he sometimes had to women that made him uncomfortable because it felt sexist? As long as he respected your perspective and didn't expect you to be the mouthpiece for all women, would you be comfortable talking with him about it? Would it hurt your relatinship or help you understand each other more?
Worst: I can't really think of a worst. I did have one girl get very upset at me and call me boring/loser for not responding to her coming up and saying she wanted to have sex with me. That was mildly uncomfortable (and made me worry I was too boring!).
Best: I had to change into my soccer uniform on the sideline once in college and a girl started whistling. We talked after the game and then ended up dating for 3 months! Ironically, she was a women's studies major and is now getting a Ph.d. in political science with a focus on eco-feminism.
Usually I feel positive when I get the cat calls (unless I think the girls are just joking around). The major difference, of course, is that the frequency of being objectified is less and the consequences are quite different for guys. There is little fear that a gaggle of girls gone wild will assault you and obviously women are much smaller than guys on average.
Alright, here goes...
Worst: I was 11 years old, wearing shorts and walking my dog. (It was 95 degrees out, what else was I gonna wear, sweatpants?) Anyway, I was walking down the street and this teeny tiny little car with this monstrously fat man in it slowed waayyy down and the guy in it started nodding and me and giving me a thumbs up. This would have been comical, except for the fact that I was 11.
Other Worst: There is a coffee shop like 8 blocks away from where I live that is open until like 4 am. After midnight, groups of recently immigrated men congregate in front of it and begin harassing women. They will catcall a girl, and if she doesn't respond (like I didn't), they will start to yell that they are going to rape her, she is a stuck-up bitch, and, this is my favorite, that she is a racist. So no one really goes to that coffee shop anymore, at least at night.
Best/Funniest: I have really pale skin, but I have dark eyes and hair so I am occasionally told that I look like a Latina. So I was walking down the street this one day and an older white guy in a suit starts walking next to me and asking my name and how I am doing, etc. I stopped and stared at him like he was fuck crazy, and he was like, "Sorry, I don't speak Spanish" and I continued to stare at him until he walked away.
Being harrassed, for men, does not serve as a reminder that their personhood is located in their body or that the locus of their worth is their fuckability.
Honestly, there is a whole other layer to it above and beyone the fact that it is threatening.
I have this whole, rich intellectual life and subjective sense of self that being harassed on the street utterly undermines.
There has been a lot of talk on this blog about how disturbing cat calls can be, but not much on how to reduce it.
One of my friends worked at a home for troubled girls for a while. Whenever they had outings, they had to monitor the girls because they would get cat-called alot. The girls would be very excited to talk to the cat-callers, despite the admonishments of the counselors.
The problem is that for guys, cat-calling is sometimes effective and is very low cost. Worst case scenario is that the girl keeps walking or starts an argument. Best case scenario is you get a date.
"Being harrassed, for men, does not serve as a reminder that their personhood is located in their body or that the locus of their worth is their fuckability. "
I would have phrased it a little differently, less extreme: That a woman's perceived personal worth is more dependent on her physical appearance than a man's personal worth.
But yes, that is one of the consequences I was alluding to when I noted that the consequences of objectification are different for women than for men.
My worst was one of the first times. I was probably twelve, maybe thirteen, but definitely wearing a school uniform and carrying schoolbooks in a huge backpack. I was walking up 86th street in Manhattan some time in early spring when a man (white, late twenties, business suit, briefcase) asked me if I was cold. I nodded yes and began to cross the street, perhaps sensing something. As I walked away he shouted "What about your pussy? Is that cold too? What if I put my hot cock in it?" I remember getting home that night and crying in my room, staring at myself naked in the bathroom mirror, and writing what my responses to the pig should have been on my own flesh in permanent marker that took weeks to wash off. So on the racism front, nothing any man of any race has said to me has harmed me as much as what that clean-cut conventionally handsome man said. I was twenty four the first time I told anyone about that.
Best? I'm sorry, there just is no best. I agree that the Jezebel response is downright stupid: "Hey girls, forget about the fact that you will forever be a potential object of scorn and sexism every time you leave the house, let's focus on the mildly funny statements that ingrained misogyny brings forth!"
For years and years I non-responded to street harassment by looking down and shuffling away. When I finally decided to vocally respond I was invariably seen as a raving bitch. Once while demanding to know how and why a man thought it was a good idea to yell "Bounce!" to me as I walked by, I was actually confronted by a police officer who wanted to know what my problem was. Naturally I felt damned if I did and damned if I didn't: if I walk away without fighting back then there's no negative consequences for harassers, and if I do respond verbally I'm risking being treated like a criminal myself. For the past year or so I've developed a pretty longwinded but seemingly effective method of dealing with it (which has quite a lot to do with working in a law office and learning all sorts of scary legal mumbo-jumbo): I've always carried a little notebook and pen around in my bag anyway, and when I'm street harassed I approach the man, ask for his name first, then his number, then his address, writing it all down. I then tell him that I'm part of a class action lawsuit aimed at men who sexually harass people on the street, and that he will be receiving legal information from my lawyer in a few weeks. I say that over one hundred women in the city are involved in the case, and that if we win, the fines will be one hundred dollars for the first offense and three hundred for the second. I say that the next woman he harasses might be involved in the suit as well, and that could mean the difference between one and three hundred dollars for him. I don't know if anyone's ever full-on bought it, but what I like about it is the dynamic that it creates: the last thing any street harasser wants is a cool, composed, scary and smart victim.
In some ways the very worst I have experienced was not terribly obvious at the time. I was on a very crowded bus going to a Halloween event and my friend had been glaring for a bit (later learned he'd asulted her first). The guy behind her moved next to me and because of my costume, it took me a while to figure out that it was not a watch, belt buckle, or cell phone being rubbed against my rear, but his penis. One of my hand bags has metal corners, and I lifted it threateningly at him while telling him firmly to "Stop it". Even though the bus was like a sardine can, he managed to get flee. I was confused about this because on the one hand this was the most personal form or harassment I've experienced to date and on the other hand because it took me a while to notice... I dunno, very strange.
To speak to the race issue, my appearance is considered beautiful/somewhat exotic (meaning different) by a cultural group and it affects my interactions with men of this group pretty consistently. Because of the cat-calls and other harassment I've received (including being propositioned for 5 euros and backed into a broom closet) I assume that I'm going to catch crap from a male of this group until proven other wise. I have very mixed feelings about this reaction on my part, including a fear that people will see how standoffish I am and conclude that I'm racist--but my experiences tell me time and again that I really do need to exercise some caution with this group.
As for what is to be done, I would argue that until it is understood by the decent men of the world that for most hostile m/f interactions the threat of sexual attack (like rape) is always lurking in the back ground it will be difficult to explain our (or at least my) aversion to escalation of these situations. Because as much as I dislike cat-calls, they're much less damaging than what could happen to me otherwise.
It is alarming to me that a boyfriend I had noticed the leering and following much more than I did. He'd point it out sometimes and ask that we leave a place (grocery store) as a result; he was always right though, not paranoid or possessive. On one memorable occasion the fellow he'd mentioned as leering followed us to his car. What does it say that this is so pervasive that I generally don't register it?
I'd been taught when I was a little kid that if a car honks at you, you should get away from the road -- the driver might be trying to warn you. So I HATE having guys honk as a form of cat-calling. It always makes me jump and curse.
Men demanding a smile in the street may not be threatening, but they are being condescending and inconsiderate. They can't tell what kind of day I've had -- I could have just lost my job, or a family member! Besides, why would they want a fake smile anyway?
I recall hearing a short radio play on CBC in which a character advised that if you're groped on public transportation, the thing to do is to grab the hand, yank it over your head and say as loudly as you can, "Ladies and gentlemen, guess where this hand has been! On my ass!"
Reading through these, is anyone but me doubly disturbed by how many stories we're relating that are from when we were 14-17 years old??
Wow, faithlesswondergirl, I read that article you linked to and I really can't decide which one is worse...
cherylp, I knew I'd read the link faithlesswondergirl supplied and I think I remember it from Pandagon: http://pandagon.net/2006/11/06/the-nice-guy-defined/
I remember a few situations from when I was in high school in which I felt uncomfortable with the attention I was getting from female classmates, but it was never any kind of major problem for me.
--
I'm not proud of this, but I know that I've been part of the problem myself. I have a bad tendency to come across as a creepy stalker and I've ended up making some people very upset. I'm not particularly perceptive and often don't pick up on messages beyond the literal meaning of the words people speak to me. (I'm a lot better at online, written communication than face-to-face verbal and non-verbal communication.) I've tried to learn from my experiences, but I don't know how successful I've been. Mostly, I've learned that the safest thing to do is not to talk to women at all, which has its own drawbacks. (I'm 24 years old and a college graduate, and I've never had a girlfriend or kissed someone on the lips.)
Anyway, if I see an attractive stranger in a public place, how can I approach her without being a harassing asshole? If you were sitting on a commuter train, say, or in a mall food court, and I went up to you, smiled, looked at your eyes, and said something like "Hello, my name is Doug. I think you're very beautiful and I'd like to get to know you. What's your name?" would that be okay? (For the record, I'm 5'4" and not physically imposing.)
In many ways, Doug, I think that the "attractive stranger in a public place" approach is not the best. It's much better to meet people through friends and friends of friends--as a woman, I find it to be more reassuring.
But in my opinion, the best approach is not a sort of direct confrontation like that, because many women are socialized to think that it's rude not to answer a direct question or to say "I'd rather finish reading my book," and will feel pressured regardless of your intentions. Try doing something like asking for directions instead, or asking her opinion on which food court stand has the best sandwiches, or commenting on the book she's reading, or, if you're both in a video store browsing the new arrivals rack "Hey, have you seen Movie A? I'm thinking of picking it up but I just don't know." If she responds in monosyllables, doesn't make eye contact, or doesn't ask you any questions about yourself, odds are that she's not interested. But the trick, I think, is to make the conversation about an experience you have in common, even a banal one, than about her attractiveness or getting to know her.
I would avoid any mention of her looks or wanting--at first glance--to get to know her better. In my mind, that reads "Oooh, creepy. And looking for sex. Great."
Maybe if you noticed what she was doing right then and commented on that? Train: Ask about the book she's reading or what song on her ipod gets her through the train ride. Food court: ask her what where the best real place to get whatever type of food she's eating is. And charming self-deprecation can work wonders.
I may have pulled that out of my behind, but I'm not used to being the one to do the picking up.
Doug,
As someone who prior to marriage spent a lifetime doing the picking up, I can tell you without any uncertainty there is only one way to approach those kinds of situations: be yourself.
Don't mac if you're not a mac, don't try to be Seinfeld if you're not, and don't try to put on airs like you're someone you're not. Just be yourself.
That said, if you've got a sense of humor, use it. Make eye contact (i.e., keep it above the neck), smile, and try to be casual and FUN.
You know if a woman is interested in you, right? Believe me, a woman KNOWS if you are interested in her. So make with the small talk, keep her at ease, and don't come on too strong, she'll let you know if she wants you to ask her out.
From there, take the hint. If she wants you to, then cut to the chase and ask her out. Don't be all wimpy and wait too long.
If she doesn't, then just move on. Once she's decided she's not interested, history says you aren't going to change that by continuing to hit on her, capische?
And relax, dude, it sounds like you're making this WAY harder then it has to be.
A third vote that aggressive leering is sometimes worst. Especially when it continues after the victim clearly expresses disgust. Just proof that they're not actually looking for approval, just trying to prove to you (and anyone else around, eg. their friends) that they don't have to care what you (and other uppity bitches) think.
Drive-by cat-calls being a close second. For one thing, there's 0 chance of a conversation happening as a consequence, so you know it's about hostility. For another, it's cowardly... at least street harassers risk you going batshit crazy on them in public. Drive-bys, there's no chance for response.
Sidenote: I find that if you can't come up with something witty to say in response to harassment, a good, solid, look at the perp and a hearty, half-laughing "eeeeewwwwwwwwwww-www-www" is a pretty good default.
My favorite response has always been "fuck off" or to flip them the bird -short and sweet, you know?
"You know if a woman is interested in you, right? Believe me, a woman KNOWS if you are interested in her. So make with the small talk, keep her at ease, and don't come on too strong, she'll let you know if she wants you to ask her out."
This strikes me as a bit of an exaggeration, although I would agree that it's not attractive to a lot of people (women /and/ men to be hit on with relate to their physical appearance by stranger))
Nina --
Just wanted to drop you a quick note to say sorry for wailing on you yesterday on that other thread.
It was my first time here and I felt attacked, so I lashed back at you. What I said was wrong, and I apologize.
I guess it is a cultural thing (blaming it on race is simply inane).
Machismo knows no color.
In NYC, you have so many men from everywhere in the world, with so many codes of conduct on how they feel it's proper to treat women. Having to deal with every aspect of this can be really tiring, so I just tune it out.
What IS consistent is how the tendency to catcall is directly proportional to how violently a man of that culture will defend his OWN sister/mother/female partner, etc.
Picture the man catcalling, then pitcure what he'd do another man doing the same to a woman close to him.
Well Blacksheep,
Actions speak louder than words. So stick around, and I guess time will tell whether I think you're someone I would genuinly respect.
JaneMinty,
Interesting theory, but I'm not sure if I buy it. There are plenty of men who abuse female family members and female strangers alike. What I might perhaps agree on is that there's no direct correlation between how badly a man treats strange women, and how he treats female family members.
I have several musings on the same, specific to the Sub Saharan African Island of Mauritius.
In my blog, I try my best to treat the subject of race delicately, which I feel is important if only for reasons of objectively.
However, in general, I wonder how much cover & protection women owe their harassers. Can't a race-blind approach force women to censor their herstories?
Ultimately, I think victims should be entitled to describe the harassment they face in sociological terms...
Without further adieu,
http://electricfencezine.blogspot.com/search/label/street%20harassment
damn typos. meant to say objectivity...
"In my blog, I try my best to treat the subject of race delicately, which I feel is important if only for reasons of objectively."
I really doubt there is such a thing as objectivity in situations such as this. I may get irritated to pissed off at all street harassers, but I'm not naive enough to think that other conscious or subconscious ways I judge people don't affect the degree to which I get pissed off at harassers.
A lot of academics I really respect have written great pieces in various disciplines (history, sociology, etc.) on why it's impossible to be human and be objective.
(which is not to say you should sensor yourself when talking about abuse, merely that it's best to acknowledge some biases are probably going to be there)
Doug,
My advice would be to just not hit on women who you don't know. Meet women through your friends, and don't immediately view them as potential girlfriend material, because that's obnoxious, obvious, and condescending as hell -- plus it will lead you into bad relationships if you start just going out with women who you really don't know well, because odds are you won't be compatible or have anything in common.
And, as advice to all men with questions about approaching women, I'll give you my detailed take on how I feel about strange guys who hit on me in public (and yes, a "strange guy" is what you are if a girl doesn't know you -- I don't care how nice you think you are). If it were legal, I would smack every stranger who tried to hit on me, because it's disrespectful to me and my time -- I run errands to get my shit done, and hitting on me in public just shows that you're disrespectful of my time and comfort level. Even if it's in a so-called respectful way that doesn't explicitly make it clear that the guy's only interested in my looks, I still know that's all it's about. I wouldn't even go with the "What are you reading" route, because if you don't know what I'm reading, you don't know whether we have anything in common and you've clearly decided to ask me that based on something else, such as how I look.
I mean, hell, just because a person is attractive doesn't mean they're a good person. For all the idiots who hit on me know, I could eat babies for breakfast; my outside says shit-all about the person I am inside. Why the hell would I want to go out with a guy knowing that if I ever got disfigured in an accident or gained weight he'd probably dump me? Or knowing that when I get old he'll dump me, because he was mostly interested in my looks, anyhow? I didn't earn how I look, and it insults me to know that so many, probably most, men care more about my skinny body and big boobs than about the real things that are good about me, the qualities that I've earned and have some control over. I personally think this is why so many men complain that they're alone and lonely -- they don't give women a chance unless they're pretty and thin. I have some wonderful female friends who've never had boyfriends, who are some of the smartest, most fun and sincere people I've ever met, but because they're overweight or not pretty, most guys don't give them a chance. (And meanwhile, said guys will waste their breath on me, even when my friends clearly have better chemistry and more in common with them than I do.)
Now, with that said, there are a few exceptions to the hitting on in public rule: If you're in a club or pick-up type place, you can try, but still don't go with the "You're beautiful" route. If the woman really is beautiful, she's heard it before and won't be impressed. And if the woman isn't interested, back the fuck off; the harder you try in that situation, the more you prove to her that she was right to not be interested.
If you're on the street, on the bus, in a coffee shop, etc., the only approach that doesn't piss me off is if a guy, say, comments positively on a button that I have, like if he sees my "Brits Out of Ireland" button and asks me what I think of Scottish devolution or something. (Which will probably never happen, since I live in the US.) Or, if I'm talking to a friend about the only TV show I watch that hardly anybody else watches, and a guy turns around and says, "Hey, I watch that show, too!" In those situations, I would be pleased as punch, because I've been approached based on who I am rather than what I look like -- and you can be damn sure that I'd approach a guy (or anybody) who I realized shared my obscure interests, too!
I have three stories that rank as the worst:
the first, when i was 15 and in AL visiting my dad and sis. she took me to the mall. i was given multiple phone numbers, and was amused, until one guy started following us around - even into the book store, where he knelt behind me and started stroking my legs.
i kicked him.
the next was at a gas station - im getting gas, some guy in a 'vette pulls up and asks me what i'm doing.i said i was getting gas. he said meant after that, and i told him i was going to my boyfriends. he said, and i quote, "i can show you a better time than any white boy in this city" i said "not when you can't even get out of your damn car first". he called me a racisist. i called pete. shut THAT asshole up when my 6'5" black boyfriend walked out of his apartment (he lived across the street from the gas station. damned usedful, that)
but the really really worst was at Origins the year before last. This is a large convention that Pete and i both volunteer at. volunteers are given hotel rooms, but we have to share. we were roomed with another couple. the third night of the convention, i went back to the room for something, and the guy from the other couple was there alone. he asked if my boyfriend and i had an open relationship. i said no. he said "thats too bad, i find you very attractive." i said "well, okay, thats nice if a bit too much after i just told you i don't have an open relationship. so thanks, but stop now" he nodded and went back to watching the TV.
at 3am, pete and i are dead asleep, when the guys girlfriend comes back. he starts crying on her (LOUDLY) about how i didn't want him. and she tells him "NEVER MIND HONEY, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM A STUCK UP BITCH WHO FUCKS NIGGERS"
no FUCKING SHIT.
but i have another side to this issue.
i have, lately, at the hideously old age of 30, been forced to walk with a cane. women are generally polite in an antiseptic way, and i always get the feeling that its more about the appearence of being nice to the crip than anything. white men almost invariable ignore me, unless they are rude and take advantage of my slowness to cut around me (sometimes hurting me in the process).
every single black and jewish guy i have seen in public, who had the chance, has held the door for me. every one.
in two cases, its been guys who have hit on me in the past - one recognized me as he was holding the door. he said "damn, Rapunzel, even with a cane i love your walk". the Rapunzel was fine, he called me that everytime i walked into the WalGreens where he worked. but the rest? i had no idea how to take it, until he gave me the sweetest and saddest smile i had ever seen. in this one case, at least, a guy was hitting on me quite literally as the best he could think of to tell me he didn't think any less of me because of that damned cane.
almost made me wish i didn't have a Pete. almost.
My scariest cat-call:
A guy on the street called out "damn girl, looking fine". I ignored him and continued on my way. He got pissed and ran after me calling me a bitch who needs to get fucked if I can't even manage to smile when he compliments me. It scared the shit out of me, so I hid out in a store and called a guy friend to pick me up, since the asshole was still out on the street.
The terrible thing is that when I was in highschool I used to smile at everyone out of polite habit more than anything. One day as I was driving I smiled at the policeman who made eye contact with me from his car at a 4way stop sign. Not a sexy smile, just a polite smile. Well, the cop apparently followed me most of the way to my house before he turned on his car's lights and pulled me over. I was 17 and scared I was about to get my first ticket. Instead the cop wanted to tell me that my smile had made him happy, he asked my name, then let me go.
Later that night, he called me at my parents house. He wanted to talk more about my smile and also about his loneliness and how he dreamed of finding a girl like me all his life. I quickly got off the phone, saying that I was in highschool and had homework. I was so shocked and scared that I didn't tell my parents until after about a week of him calling daily. I never found out how he looked up my phone number.
Anyway, after that I experience I only smile for a good reason. And being called fine as I walk down the street is not a good reason!
When I was about 16 I was in Manhattan with my mother and grandmother because I needed to get a passport for an upcoming trip. We were waiting to cross the street when some guy in a truck called out to me. I flipped him the bird and as he was driving away he said "He'd break off my finger and shove it up my ass"....my what a lovely thing to say to a teenage girl when her mother AND grandmother are standing right there!
On another occasion a friend and I were taking the subway to a concert when some guys kept bothering us about the stain on my pants (I accidentally sat in something earlier). My friend grabbed my hand, said we were lesbians and we both took off for our train.
And this is just one of MANY incidents...god that is sad. And going to Catholic school didn't help either, something about those uniforms turns men into dirty old scuzzbags
"I never found out how he looked up my phone number. "
I'm almost entirely sure that he wrote down your license number, checked who the car was registered to, either called the number if it was given on the registration info or yellow paged it from the name and general vicinity.
Cops have all kinds of advantages.
"but i have another side to this issue.
i have, lately, at the hideously old age of 30, been forced to walk with a cane."
Ouch!
"women are generally polite in an antiseptic way, and i always get the feeling that its more about the appearence of being nice to the crip than anything."
Sigh. Once at a convenience store I saw this lady with two of those cane/crutch hybrid thingies (they sort of fit around the lower arm instead of the upper armpit - what are they called?) and a shopping basket between her torso, her hands, and the shelf. Thinking it must be really awkward to walk around with that basket and those whatever-they're-called, I asked her if she'd like any help. She asked if I worked there, I said no, and she said 'thank you but I'm fine.' Then she said I was the first person she'd met in Massachusetts who was polite like that. That made me sad (I thought "Why don't more people be helpful?").
I suppose that randomly introducing yourself to strangers isn't the best way to meet people, but I don't get out of my house very much (being job-free and spending all my time on the Internet and playing video games will do that) and I've sort of lost touch with anyone that can introduce me to new people. I'm not particularly looking for a romantic relationship so much as someone to talk with (or play Super Smash Bros. with) when I'm sick of being alone.
It's somewhat silly of me to post here about being lonely, but I really don't have anything better to do anyway.
I haven't been cat-called at that much, I don't think. I mean, I don't usually listen to people yelling on the street and probably don't notice if they're yelling at me.
But I was harrassed by the same person twice last year on campus. I was walking just outside my dorm and two guys drove passed me and yelled "yo bitch" at me and sped off. Then, a couple of weeks later, I was in the same area with a couple of friends. The same two guys in the same car yelled "whores" at us and sped away. It was good that we all had our eyes peeled. I recognized the car as an early 2000's black Honda Civic, and my friend saw the license plate number. So we went to Campus Security and told them what happened and gave them the description of the car. Campus Security found them the next day and told them that if they came to our campus again (they weren't students at our school), that they'd be arrested for trespassing. I didn't see them again after that.
I think part of the reason guys do this bullshit is because they get away with it so much. I think it's important to tell someone, even if you're reporting it to the person who owns the building the guy is loitering in front of. Guys who catcall are obviously wimpy and would probably get lost if someone with the slightest bit of authority told them to. If there's a nearby police officer, that'd really be the person to tell. They can probably find something to ticket them for.
"My advice would be to just not hit on women who you don't know... I wouldn't even go with the "What are you reading" route, because if you don't know what I'm reading, you don't know whether we have anything in common..."
Big ol' disagree here, Ponies. I met my husband by having him ask me, on the bus, what book I was reading. It turned out we had plenty in common (his eyes lit up when I mentioned it was a fantasy novel), and that became the first long conversation of many. I realize this kind of thing is rare, but it can happen.
Doug, it sounds like one of the things you need to do is go out and join some groups. Find a university club you're interested in, or a book club, volunteer organization, gym... something to get you meeting a new pool of people.
i know i shouldn't bring up the race thing, but some of the comments are making it clear that race is a huge part of this issue. i grew up in a predominantly white area so my harassers were usually white by default. now that i've moved around a bit, and travel more I've now been harassed, annoyed, and frightened by men of various races. basically making me watchful of all men when i'm alone in public. the thing that bothers me is why is it that when a black man or a latino man does something awful like this he suddenly becomes a representative for his entire race? white men usually don't carry that burden. i just don't know why we can't just pin this thing on the individual. however, i'm sure you can find ties related to their social class, and this sort of behavior. because the guys who harassed me certainly weren't ivy league, but then again there are always those certain kind of frat boys ... ugh.
Two worst harassments I've had: Both times, I was out walking in broad daylight, on a street where there are not a ton of pedestrians, but they do happen along from time to time. The first time I was jogging with a friend, the second time just walking to college. Both times, a man in a car was pulled over and asked me for directions. Both times, he then whipped his penis out and asked me if I liked it.
First time, it was a young, white, fratboy looking guy in a fancy car (who then claimed he had to do it as a frat initiation rite). Second time, it was a middle-aged Hispanic man in an older car.
Funniest and least threatening: Paris, waiting for the Metro with my boyfriend. An Italian fellow walking around on the quai singing. When we all get on the train, he winks at me and says, in English, "I like you." Then he goes to the other end of the car and doesn't say another thing.
I got harassed by men in cars constantly when I was in college, probably because I walked most places in a city where most everyone drives. Mostly it was just shouting and driving off. I frankly haven't noticed a big racial trend from my own experience, though I do find myself glancing nervously at both white frat boys and Hispanic men now. But the men who shout are pretty evenly distributed, racewise.
Oh, and second most disturbing: Walking home from the school bus stop when I was 13, in a quiet, friendly suburban neighborhood. Dude slows down the car and wolf-whistles, then whistles again louder when I ignore him, then speeds off when I carry on ignoring him. I didn't really understand what was going on -- was just confused. Only later did I realize how messed up that was. I was 13 and looked it.
Big ol' disagree here, Ponies.
What, you disagree that I'm irritated by men who try to harass me in a "nice" way? Well, I am, and one story in a billion isn't going to change that.
I realize this kind of thing is rare, but it can happen.
Exactly. It's so rare that I don't think it's worth making most women miserable by condoning it. If it worked for you, fine, but I don't know a single woman who likes that type of behavior. Of course, I also don't hold with the idea that there's only one person out there for everyone, so I figure that if I somehow "miss my chance" by brushing off a guy who asks me what I'm reading, I'll probably meet somebody else somewhere. And if not, I'm happy with that, too. I've been stomped on by too many guys who approached me like that to think it's a good method of meeting people. One of them raped me, in fact, and I'd rather "miss my chance" than go through that shit again.
I have to disagree with you too, ponies. No question, finding someone attractive doesn't prove you'll be compatible, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to try to find out if there's any potential for compatibility. If not (on either side) c'est la vie.
As to the post topic in general, this is truly unsettling to me as a guy: I know this sort of thing happens, but I don't imagine it being this widespread. And without everyone sharing their reactions, I couldn't imagine how horrifying this is for the victims on the receiving end.
I think part of the reason guys do this bullshit is because they get away with it so much. I think it's important to tell someone, even if you're reporting it to the person who owns the building the guy is loitering in front of.
I don't think this can be stated enough...Too many women seem to think that being treated like meat is inevitable and a natural consequence of being a woman. But let's face it, men are every bit as capable as we are of behaving as mature, responsible adults, and if they don't, then they deserve to pay the penalty for it. I mean, hell, imagine how up in arms people would be if an older woman slowed down her car to repeatedly wolf-whistle at a 13-year-old boy, like the scumbag Carrie mentioned. Or hell, all our stories about men hitting on us and stalking us when we were 11 or 12. Flip the genders and imagine an older woman doing the same to a young boy and the condemnation such a woman would meet...If it's not behavior we'd tolerate from a woman, we damn well shouldn't tolerate it from men, either.
As to the post topic in general, this is truly unsettling to me as a guy: I know this sort of thing happens, but I don't imagine it being this widespread.
It totally is.
The stories are revealing to me, too, though. I didn't realize how many women shared with me the experience of having been hit on as a child. I could go further back than people have gone here, though, to about age 7. Wow, was I confused by sexual advances at 7.
I always thought that having people harass you in the suburbs was way scarier than having people harass you in the city. I figure, generally the crazies in the city show it, but the suburban people hide it better.
Ponies, I am so sorry for what happened to you. From the bottom of my heart.
Doug- I also disagree about the approaching the random stranger and trying to start a conversation with her about the book she is reading. The few times this has happened to me, I was mostly annoyed at the asshole that just disturbed the pleasant read I was having. Also, joining clubs and all that is good, but only if you actually WANT to do it. Do not, DO NOT simply join a group in order to meet girls. It would, in all likelihood, make others feel rather uncomfortable if they realized that you had no real interest in their group, but just in the single women within it.
You seem like an introverted guy, and it seems to be working against you at present. Since you don't have a job and you say that you spend a lot of time on your computer and playing video games, I can see why it would be difficult to put yourself out there. Women are complicated creatures- sometimes approachable, and sometimes completely prickly, and its difficult to tell which until you actually do approach. My advice is this: just talk to people. Be polite. Hold doors- and when you do it, don't leer and be creepy. Make eye contact and smile. You could try going to a busy video game store in your area and start conversations with people about your favorite games (i.e. Zelda is good, but Super Smash Bros. is way more fun. And it can be a 2-player game.) Take a class at a local college or university on something that interests you- similar to joining a group, I know, but the higher commitment level it would require would automatically suggest that you are there for intrinsic purposes. Talk to a few people in the class, start a study group, whatever you need to do. Some of the best friends I have became my friends because we were in the same study group for a class. If school is not your thing, then become a regular at a local coffee shop or restaurant. If you go there regularly, you will probably be able to hold conversations with the people that work there. This way you would be able to start conversations with others that come in with greater ease- but I would advise against attempting to form an outside relationship with any of the staff at the place you frequent. However, if you are having a conversation with someone as they are working behind the counter in a coffee shop, and an attractive woman walks in, simply include her in the conversation you were already having. Best case scenario: she likes you and you sit down and have a cup of coffee together; worst case: you can return to your conversation after she is gone. I would tell you, though, not to have only one place that you go to for that kind of thing. If the people working suspect that you are using them to pick up girls, the response will probably be negative.
Sorry for the novella, but I hope it helps.
Hey guys. I don't know why but posting here is somewhat relieving, as I have to endure so much harassment on a regular basis. I tend to forget easily, but just a few hours ago a man started leering at me, and I gave him a nasty look and looked away. When I looked back he was still leering and I gave him an even nastier look and looked away. When I looked back quite a bit later, he was still leering and the expression on his face was bone-chilling. I thought he might murder me if I gave him another nasty look.
I thought of another horrible experience with a stranger. I have a big chest on occasion (my breasts are always changing size, for some reason) and I remember jogging across the street and some boys leaned out pointing and screaming, amidst a lengthy time of hoots and hollers "look at those!!!" I can't explain how mortifying this was. I still feel terrible remembering it.
A nicer time of being hit on by a stranger was when I was sitting by a fountain in quite a crowd, and someone kept flashing their pointer light on me. I finally found him and it was utterly non-threatening. It almost seemed as if he was just bored and wanted to make a little game.
Exactly! That sums up a lot of things that I have been trying to put into words for quite a long time now. When one of these Fields Medal winners harrasses me — whether it's at a bar, on the street, in the tube, on a taxi, wherever — the result, no matter how prepared I am, is that I end up feeling the exact opposite of everything that I am in the rest of my life. When some guy grabs me, or leers at me, or makes some revolting comment or other directed at me, it leaves me feeling paralysed, incompetent, and small, mostly because I have no idea how to react. Having had some quite terrifying experiences in this regard (one of which was described in an earlier comment on this thread), I am absolutely petrified of the possibility of what might happen if the situation escalates.
Mina -
i totally agree. and the politeness i envision includes the politness to not lear at me because i happen to be a woman at a gas station.
also, damn does your story resonate. i dont know how many people i shock when i offer to help them. but, i think SOME one needs to. and hey, sometimes karma wins - i helped a guy with a flat about eight years ago, and dropped my wallet in the process. the next day, he returned my wallet (he put it in my mailbox) after he added an anon. thank you note and $200. never tried to contact me after that (as i was kinda afraid he would - i mean, when a random guy gives you money, what do you think he thinks?)
i still have that note. i like it more than my diplomas, actually.
Ladylexicon - oh wow your story brought back the memory of my own youngest harassment. I developed large breasts early in life, and when I was about 10 (maybe 11?) I remember running in the field in gym class and hearing two older boys (13/14) running behind me talking about my breasts and making fun of their size and their bouncing. It wasn't just a comment or two, it was basically a continuous, snickering dialogue they kept up for our whole run. I know it sounds really tame, especially in light of some of the much more threatening things women here have recounted, but I was absolutely ashamed about that for YEARS afterwards. I had to fight back tears for the rest of gym class!
The most upsetting incidence of street harassment I can remember (ie the one that got to me the most) occured when I lived in Baltimore and was walking home from where I parked my car late one night. I worked a night job and wouldn't get back until 2 or 3 in the morning (sometimes even 4) and all the street parking near my apartment would be taken, so it was often a several block walk back. In my neighborhood there was a fair amount of unemployed, not in school young people - single moms and young looking guys, probably between 17 and 20, who just loitered around the neighborhood all the time, and were often up late partying or all hanging out together on their porch. Although we weren't friendly with each other, they definitely knew who I was and where I lived. (I myself was only 20 at the time.)
So this crowd seemed to be having a party at one of the rowhomes I had to walk past to get home. And a lot of them - guys and girls - were sitting on the porch. As I approached, their talking got quieter and eventually stopped entirely as I walked by. I think I glanced over and gave them a nervous smile, maybe even said hi, but they were quiet. Once I had just passed the edge of their house, one of the boys started yelling at me saying things like "don't stop working yet, honey, come up to my room, I've got $20, etc. etc." Four years later, it seems a little hard to remember why exactly I was so devestated and embarrassed by this. But I think it had to do with the fact that these were essentially my neighbors.
cherlyp - yeah, the "basement" story is appalling! The good thing is that it got a lot of negative attention on dcist and other blogs (like whyihatedc and pandagon, although I didn't know about that until annejumps posted it here) and for two weeks there were letters to the editor published from women writing in saying how angry they were. Unfortunately, there was one (poorly written, might I add) letter by a man echoing the guy's statements and thanking the paper for pulishing his account of the DC bar scene. I would imagine this article (the "nice ass" one) will get a fair amount of letters as well.
Yesterday I was riding my bike through the city of Pittsburgh -- sweaty, stinky, having the time of my life -- and I came to a dead-end where construction workers had blocked off the street. As I was turning my bike around, I look up to see workers towering over me (the four men were literally standing on a platform about six feet higher than me).
I am not a person who believes that all people in hard hats automatically equate to catcalling, but to my chagrin, one said, "Hey look at THAT," or "Hey did you see THAT?" Um. So. I am a THAT now?
I'm very sorry to hear about what happened to you, Ponies. And I do agree that it's irritating for a guy to pretend interest in something to talk to a woman. But if a guy actually is interested in what she's reading, well, I see that as similar to your anecdote about chiming into a conversation about TV.
I'd suggest to any guy who does try this approach, though, to ask, "Would you like me to let you get back to reading?" -- that gives her a polite out if she doesn't want to converse.
Oh, and I don't think that there's "someone out there for everyone" either. Maybe I just live in a friendlier city, but my experiences with talking to strangers have been about fifty-fifty.
Ponies, I can certainly understand why your experience would make you dislike being approached by strange guys period.
That being said, I personally have asked strangers what they are reading. I have both started conversations with strangers, and had strangers start conversations with me, that turned into relatively deep and interesting exchanges. I like talking to non-sketchy strangers, and really have nothing against it (I also hear tell that talking to strangers is much more common in countries outside the U.S.) That being said, none of these exchanges ever turned into a longer relationship, for some reason. Even if I thought a guy was pretty fun after talking to him for 2 hrs, there is still something intimidating about knowing nothing else about him, no common friends, nothing.
I think in general guys don't like being approached by strangers that much either though. Especially not if it's particularly sexual in nature. (I have a bad habit of hitting on guys sometimes, although these days I'm better). The one time hitting on a stranger worked for me (and it wasn't even /that/ bad, it was just "you have amazing hair" the dude was a rock musician. So you know, they already have that stereotype...)
(those last two paragraphs were addressed to Doug)
There are plenty of men who abuse female family members and female strangers alike.
very true, but I meant this is more of a case of "defending" as property, though maybe for some "honor" is a partial motive.
another recent gawker comment on giving up seats for pregnant women better illustrates this...I'll have to do a search, but it was along the lines of how gentlemanly men of some cultures are when they are not directly shoving their faces into a set of stripper's tits...it's like they switch from one to the other in an instant (like The Sopranos!).
I got yelled at yesterday on the way home from the bar. Well, I guess I should say this morning. That, combined with everything I read in this thread really pissed me off and I ended up screaming at the guy to get the fuck out of my face. After that, all his friends decided to start ripping on me, including a WOMAN that he was with who ripped apart my body and my face and my hair. Grrrrrr
I think this post and the comments that follow perfectly illustrate what is wrong with feminism today. First of all, it is racist.
Second of all, it takes an oppositional view toward men that reduces men to immoral agents and women to innocent victims. It thereby justifies female rage and sadism towards men. One only need scroll up to see joy at men walking into parking meters, the desire to kick men off of their bicycles, etc.
Third, it asserts that men should have less freedom generally and specifically less freedom than women in relation to them. The post itself clearly states "Intrepid Reporter Joe is not quite at the point yet where his reptilian brain can handle the idea that maybe it's men's responsibility to keep their traps shut; that they don't have a right to yell at every passing woman about her body." Translation: men do not deserve the inalienable right to free speech and free thought, because they are lower forms of life. Nevermind that no man yells at every woman about her body. One of the representative examples of the supposedly horrible behavior is a man saying, "Hey, that's a pretty dress." Another is a man approaching a woman in a singles bar to talk. Oh, the horror.
Fourth, the post absolutely obliterates any reasonable understanding, or conception, of the male experience. One of the implicit arguments here is that men wouldn't like this treatment if they had to undergo it every day, and a couple of token males say as much. But that certainly is false. Most men would love to be hit on by young women in the street, especially ones saying things like, "You look sexy today." That would make his day.
Sixth, it ignores how feminism has changed society and caused the supposedly essentially male behavior. Meeting women -- even as a gentleman -- is a numbers game; you cannot meet a nice woman at church or through friends as if it were 1950. Feminism has changed the social landscape. In order to get six phone numbers as a result of chatting up women on the street, you have to talk to 100.
Seventh, it fails to acknowledge that most women think feminism is nutty, think there's a difference between promoting equality and feminism, and issues like this are the reason why. Out of the 100 women a guy talks to per day, 6 of them may want to see the guy later, 55 may say something witty back or have a short conversation, 33 may simply ignore the guy, and 6 may be as offended as the women here. Yet there is no justification for why the 55 women who are amenable to the technique are outweighed by the 6 who hate it; nor is there any justification for why the 6 who hate it outweigh the 6 who give out their numbers. Nor is it ever considered that some women -- shocking! -- actually wear certain outfits to get attention from men on the street and they like the attention they receive.
Lastly, it seriously lacks any sense of reasonable proportion. Some commenters have compared saying "Hey, nice dress!" with rape. That is just silly. Anyone who would make such an argument seriously needs to consider therapy, not more feminist theory.
I think this post and the comments that follow perfectly illustrate what is wrong with feminism today. First of all, it is racist.
Second of all, it takes an oppositional view toward men that reduces men to immoral agents and women to innocent victims. It thereby justifies female rage and sadism towards men. One only need scroll up to see joy at men walking into parking meters, the desire to kick men off of their bicycles, etc.
Third, it asserts that men should have less freedom generally and specifically less freedom than women in relation to them. The post itself clearly states "Intrepid Reporter Joe is not quite at the point yet where his reptilian brain can handle the idea that maybe it's men's responsibility to keep their traps shut; that they don't have a right to yell at every passing woman about her body." Translation: men do not deserve the inalienable right to free speech and free thought, because they are lower forms of life. Nevermind that no man yells at every woman about her body. One of the representative examples of the supposedly horrible behavior is a man saying, "Hey, that's a pretty dress." Another is a man approaching a woman in a singles bar to talk. Oh, the horror.
Fourth, the post absolutely obliterates any reasonable understanding, or conception, of the male experience. One of the implicit arguments here is that men wouldn't like this treatment if they had to undergo it every day, and a couple of token males say as much. But that certainly is false. Most men would love to be hit on by young women in the street, especially ones saying things like, "You look sexy today." That would make his day.
Sixth, it ignores how feminism has changed society and caused the supposedly essentially male behavior. Meeting women -- even as a gentleman -- is a numbers game; you cannot meet a nice woman at church or through friends as if it were 1950. Feminism has changed the social landscape. In order to get six phone numbers as a result of chatting up women on the street, you have to talk to 100.
Seventh, it fails to acknowledge that most women think feminism is nutty, think there's a difference between promoting equality and feminism, and issues like this are the reason why. Out of the 100 women a guy talks to per day, 6 of them may want to see the guy later, 55 may say something witty back or have a short conversation, 33 may simply ignore the guy, and 6 may be as offended as the women here. Yet there is no justification for why the 55 women who are amenable to the technique are outweighed by the 6 who hate it; nor is there any justification for why the 6 who hate it outweigh the 6 who give out their numbers. Nor is it ever considered that some women -- shocking! -- actually wear certain outfits to get attention from men on the street and they like the attention they receive.
Lastly, it seriously lacks any sense of reasonable proportion. Some commenters have compared saying "Hey, nice dress!" with rape. That is just silly. Anyone who would make such an argument seriously needs to consider therapy, not more feminist theory.
I think this post and the comments that follow perfectly illustrate what is wrong with feminism today. First of all, it is racist.
Second of all, it takes an oppositional view toward men that reduces men to immoral agents and women to innocent victims. It thereby justifies female rage and sadism towards men. One only need scroll up to see joy at men walking into parking meters, the desire to kick men off of their bicycles, etc.
Third, it asserts that men should have less freedom generally and specifically less freedom than women in relation to them. The post itself clearly states "Intrepid Reporter Joe is not quite at the point yet where his reptilian brain can handle the idea that maybe it's men's responsibility to keep their traps shut; that they don't have a right to yell at every passing woman about her body." Translation: men do not deserve the inalienable right to free speech and free thought, because they are lower forms of life. Not to mention that no man yells at every woman about her body. One of the representative examples of the supposedly horrible behavior is a man saying, "Hey, that's a pretty dress." Another is a man approaching a woman in a singles bar to talk. Oh, the horror.
Fourth, it absolutely obliterates any reasonable understanding, or conception, of the male experience. One of the implicit arguments here is that men wouldn't like this treatment if they had to undergo it every day. But that certainly is false. Most men would love to be hit on by young women in the street, especially ones saying things like, "You look sexy today." That would make his day.
Sixth, it ignores how feminism has changed society and caused the supposedly essentially male behavior. Meeting women -- even as a gentleman -- is a numbers game; you cannot meet a nice woman at church or through friends as if it were 1950. Feminism has changed the social landscape. In order to get six phone numbers as a result of chatting up women on the street, you have to talk to 100.
Seventh, it fails to acknowledge that most women think feminism is nutty, think there's a difference between promoting equality and feminism, and issues like this are the reason why. Out of the 100 women a guy talks to per day, 6 of them may want to see the guy later, 55 may say something witty back or have a short conversation, 33 may simply ignore the guy, and 6 may be as offended as the women here. Yet there is no justification for why the 55 women who are amenable to the technique are outweighed by the 6 who hate it; nor is there any justification for why the 6 who hate it outweigh the 6 who give out their numbers. Nor is it ever considered that some women -- shocking! -- actually wear certain outfits to get attention from men on the street and they like the attention they receive.
Lastly, it seriously lacks any sense of reasonable proportion. Some commenters have compared saying "Hey, nice dress!" with rape. That is just silly. Anyone who would make such an argument seriously needs to consider therapy, not more feminist theory.
Oh Jesus...
Do you honestly think for a minute that men would like it if women catcalled at 13 yr-old boys, or yelled insults at men on the street? (what's the equivalent of "bitch" or "slut" anyway though -"dick" or something?)
"Out of the 100 women a guy talks to per day, 6 of them may want to see the guy later, 55 may say something witty back or have a short conversation, 33 may simply ignore the guy, and 6 may be as offended as the women here."
You're one of the guys we're talking about, aren't you. You really think yelling at women on the street is an appropriate way to get their number, don't you? I don't have a single female friend who likes to be yelled at, and of my better friends I think I'm the only one who is active in the feminist movement. There is even a facebook group about this issue (" Women Against Dirty MFers Who Whiste & Honk @ U & the Men Who Support Us ")
Feminism is not mentioned anywhere in the facebook message. And you act, Commentator, like women are mostly receiving compliments like "pretty dress" or something. At least half the time (I think more) I get an insult yelled at me or a whistle or something and get called "bitch" when I don't respond. I guarantee you men wouldn't want that attention.
"Some commenters have compared saying "Hey, nice dress!" with rape."
Nobody did any such thing. Please find it for me, if they did.
And anyway, street harassment period is not a good thing. Women shouldn't be verbally harassed on the street. Minorities shouldn't be verbally harassed on the street. Persons with disabilities should not be verbally harassed on the street, etc. There's a big difference in my mind between "freedom of speech" and an outright expression of degradation or hatred. I think our government agrees (like you do know harassment is technically illegal, right? as is slander...)
"Meeting women -- even as a gentleman -- is a numbers game; you cannot meet a nice woman at church or through friends as if it were 1950. Feminism has changed the social landscape. In order to get six phone numbers as a result of chatting up women on the street, you have to talk to 100. "
And please about this too... this is reeking of privilige. Women don't get to date just whoever the hell they want either, you know? Of course it's an effort to meet partners you are attracted to, it always has been. It's a big effort and takes patience for both men /and/ women. (and feminism has had little to do with that, except maybe now women have slightly higher expectations for themselves in what men they're willing to date) That doesn't mean being pushy or disrespectful is an appropriate way to go about getting dates. I don't mind guys trying to chat me up in bars in general -but I've had a few guys try to argue with me when I reject them. Wtf? I would never ask somebody out and then argue with them if they turned me down... how creepy and controlling is that?
Your reply is to use more straw-men and rhetoric.
We are not talking about child molestation. Bringing up 13-year olds is silly. The behavior is directed at women. If it is directed at children, that is a different issue and is a different conversation that would not feature my objection to this conversation. By mentioning 13-year olds, you are implicitly comparing saying "Hey, nice dreaa!" with child molestation. This is what I'm referring to.
Talking to someone on the street is not harassament, and an opinion as to how someone looks is not slander. Nothing discussed here is illegal, except the few examples of unwanted touching could be a tort with nominal damages. But you'd have a tough time winning a false imprisonment or assault case with such a light and momentary touch. Characterizing it as harassment does not make it so. You're just making up nonsense.
I would never ask somebody out and then argue with them if they turned me down... how creepy and controlling is that?
How creepy and controlling is it to insist men don't have a right to say hello?
I would never ask somebody out and then argue with them if they turned me down... how creepy and controlling is that?
How creepy and controlling is it to insist men don't have a right to say hello?
And please about this too... this is reeking of privilige. Women don't get to date just whoever the hell they want either, you know?
That is your sexist interpretation. My point, however, was that feminism is the cause of the behavior you complain about, not that women have an easier time getting laid and therefore I'm pouting. But thanks for patronizing me with a sexist stereotype.
"Your reply is to use more straw-men and rhetoric. "
Commentator,
In that case you obviously did not read the posts of the women hear, as most of them were not complaining about comments like "pretty dress" (and those that did, attributed their discomfort with that attention to the number of times they've been harassed by strangers in a negative manner) Go through and read all of the stories, tally up the times someone was genuinly harassed (touched inappropriately, flashed, called bitch, been subject to a lot of unwanted sexual talk, catcalled when underage, etc.) with the times someone was complaining about a comment like "pretty dress", and come back and we'll have a conversation.
"Your reply is to use more straw-men and rhetoric.
"We are not talking about child molestation. Bringing up 13-year olds is silly. The behavior is directed at women."
What on Earth is so silly about bringing up 13-year-olds when several of the women here did endure that behavior directed at them when they were 13 years old themselves?
"My point, however, was that feminism is the cause of the behavior you complain about, not that women have an easier time getting laid and therefore I'm pouting."
Commentator, feminism has nothing to do with this. In the 1950s it wasn't common for men to get dates from random women on the street either. Go ask your grandparents or some older friends if you don't believe me.
In that case you obviously did not read the posts of the women hear
I obviously read the comments. I was obviously responding to them. You cannot deal with the cogency of my objections, so you're just trying to discredit me as a person. It's called an ad hominem attack and it actually qualifies as "verbal harassment".
Also the behavior we are calling street harassment has existed since long before the 1950s. Go ask your grandmother or some older female friends if you don't believe me.
Commentator, feminism has nothing to do with this. In the 1950s it wasn't common for men to get dates from random women on the street either.
Your response is a fallacy. My argument is not about the success rate of the technique. My argument is about why the technique is employed more often today than it was in the past and my assertion is that feminism has indirectly caused the change. Whether technique is generally successful is irrelevant to that point.
Also the behavior we are calling street harassment has existed since long before the 1950s.
It was not as common, as frequent, and as extreme. Nor was it a necessary part of the dating scene. It is now.
Commentator, why don't you take some time to scroll up and read all the stories women have posted about being cat called when 12, 13? before you spend another half hour composing another scathing critique of what this is supposedly about, read what people are actually taking offense to.
Hey Commentator, in tone and substance you sound just like a male poster we used to have on here by the name of (oh, I forget the name, something about toxic waste). You're not a poster who got banned and came back to post under a different name, are you?
"You cannot deal with the cogency of my objections"
Of course that's it, and I'm a unicorn. *rolls eyes*
"My argument is not about the success rate of the technique. My argument is about why the technique is employed more often today than it was in the past and my assertion is that feminism has indirectly caused the change." -Commenter
"Also the behavior we are calling street harassment has existed since long before the 1950s. Go ask your grandmother or some older female friends if you don't believe me." -my comment
I read the comments. I clearly responded to them substantively. Pretending I did not read them is pointless.
No, I am not Mr. Toxic Waste, whoever that scoundrel of a male might be. That is just another pitiful attempt to characterize me as some evil antifeminist and thereby discredit my objections.
As to why bringing up 13-year olds distorts the issue, that kind of behavior isn't the general trend of the relevant behavior, so asserting it's representative is fallacious. You don't have a conversation about phenomenon X by cherry-picking the most extreme case out of a data set. That's basically lying.
Wow. Did you READ any of these comments?
"I think this post and the comments that follow perfectly illustrate what is wrong with feminism today. First of all, it is racist."
How is talking about your interaction with a certain race in a certain area based on experience with these people all together racist? How do these negative expeience mean that feminism is racist?
"One only need scroll up to see joy at men walking into parking meters, the desire to kick men off of their bicycles, etc."
Joy at sexual harassers getting what's coming to them? Yeah, god forbid!
"that they don't have a right to yell at every passing woman about her body." Translation: men do not deserve the inalienable right to free speech and free thought, because they are lower forms of life."
Sexual Harassment is not a right as free speech is. Harassment is illegal.
"Most men would love to be hit on by young women in the street, especially ones saying things like, "You look sexy today." That would make his day."
Wow. And reason goes out the window. Are you "most men?" Have you done a scientific survey? How do you know?
"Seventh, it fails to acknowledge that most women think feminism is nutty, think there's a difference between promoting equality and feminism, and issues like this are the reason why."
Hahahahaha. Yeah, I agree. Being upset with being harassed and solicited like prostitues--as some posters have experience with--or called a bitch or being verbally attacked IS the downfall of feminism.
"Lastly, it seriously lacks any sense of reasonable proportion. Some commenters have compared saying "Hey, nice dress!" with rape."
Quote that comment for me.
"Your reply is to use more straw-men and rhetoric.
We are not talking about child molestation. Bringing up 13-year olds is silly. The behavior is directed at women."
Seriously, again, did you read any of these posts? Most of us started having these experiences at the age of 12 or 13; they have only gotten worse as we have gotten older. If we are "allowed," in your estimation, to be upset at 13, then why should we tolerate it once we reach adulthood? Because sex with us by all ages over 18 is now legal? Because harassment doesn't count when its directed towards women? What?
For the record, I do distinguish compliments and chatting as different than cat calls and hollers, and those as different from following women or insulting them. But it all comes from viewing women as something that its your RIGHT to do these things to. It's obviously not.
This is the most satisfying post I think I have read on feministing, as this happens all the time to myself and my friends and leaves me always feeling enraged and helpless and disgusted. I am often shocked at the constant level of harrasment, and it leaves me furious that just minding our own business in public makes us fair game to these scummy, frightening men.
At worst, it has been flashing, groping, and men masturbating in front of me (generally while I try to get away.) I guess the absolute WORST though happened about a year ago, when I was going to school at UC Santa Cruz and I was walking down the main street to meet a friend for a movie. A man started following me down the street and I could hear him mumbling stuff, along the lines of, "I'm gonna cut you up bitch, you fucking piece of ass." etc etc. At first I tried to ignore him but then I thought it was just too much and I turned around and said, "Excuse me, are you talking to me?" In general, I have a hard time asserting myself in public and usually settle for giving street harrassers a dirty look. Then he just lost it and started shouting, "YOU FUCKING BITCH. YOU FUCKING PUSSY, I'LL RIP YOU UP!" and so on. I really thought he was going to hit me or inflict some kind of violence on me, so I shouted "Fuck you!" and ran. The worst part is that this all happened in front of a resturant where there was a large group of guys waiting for a table. No one said anything, maybe because it happened so fast. Anyways, I doubled back and went to the police station, where I filed a citizens arrest. Serves the bastard right.
For the record, I do distinguish compliments and chatting as different than cat calls and hollers, and those as different from following women or insulting them. But it all comes from viewing women as something that its your RIGHT to do these things to. It's obviously not.
Well, it is a persons right to say whatever they want on the street. And one incident of talking to someone is not harrassment. It just isn't, as a matter of law. if you think otherwise, you have a very strange and wrong conception of First Amendment rights and of the laws of all 50 states. And, yes, I have done a survey.
WOW.
After reading all of these comments and Commentator's inability to respond to our counterpoints other than to say "Your argument is a fallacy" or "I did read them," I think we should all just stop fighting because he clearly will not consider reason or logic.
And the police do nothing with those complaints, btw.
it was the amount of harassment I used to receive walking 20mins to and from work while living in north africa that started my interest in feminism.
Scariest: 1. being followed by three guys in thier car. the streets were arranged in grids, and they'd drive past, and around, and past, and around...
2. (with my boyfriend at the time) when some guy leaned out of his car and screamed at me - in arabic - "I want to rape you until the blood flows"
The men, predominantly young, would harass anything, not just the blonde girl in jeans and a t-shirt... but the local girls in abiya and veil or burkha.
Predominantly, I think it's about respect. The local black immigrants there used to keep an eye out for me, and "defend" me if someone got too close, while the white expatriate workers would turn a blind eye and tell me "I was asking for it"
Dude, go away. Why are you even on here other than to piss people off? How is saying that the police do nothing with these complaints helping any of your points? I assume you were responding to the poster who talked about the guy threatening to KILL HER. How is this helping?
Get lost.
commentator, ninapendamaishi brought up cat calls to 12 year olds, and how men would find that creepy, and you called that a straw man that was changing the issue to pedophilia. if you really did read the comments, then you probably noticed that many of the posters had a story to tell about when they were cat called at the age of 11, 12, or 13.
also, you know what? i bet a lot of us took formal logic or philosophy 101 in college. labeling things as straw men or ad hominem attacks or red herrings or whatever isn't impressive - and it doesn't give your objections more weight.
Commentator's inability to respond to our counterpoints
Kate, there is nothing to respond to. For example, I said this post encourages sadism toward men and your response is to characterize men who talk to women "getting what's coming to them?" as a positive development: by saying "Yeah, god forbid!"
So where is the counterpoint? Your response makes my point again.
If any of you took formal logic, it doesn't show. My point wasn't to use man-speak to impress. My point was if you have a problem with my post, you can directly criticize it without using sexist tropes and making irrelevant responses that would work against a a hypothetical evil antifeminist who wrote a post different than the one I did. There is no reason to disrespect me simply because I disagree and am male.
Don't change my words. I said harass. Not talk to. And since you already quoted me, you know I see a distinction between the two.
Yes, but your definition of harrassment is factually wrong.
"My point wasn't to use man-speak to impress."
Man-speak?
Seriously, kiddo?
Oh, you're a feminist who has never heard the argument that formal logic is phallogocentric?
Ignore the guy. He's making things up out of wholecloth in an attempt to derail the topic.
"Seriously kiddo?" meaning you're seriously coming on this website and trying to use that argument? And you wonder why the reactions are defensive?
Hmm...I think I'm done.
"Seriously kiddo?" meaning you're seriously coming on this website and trying to use that argument? And you wonder why the reactions are defensive?
Hmm...I think I'm done.
Yes, Anne, attack my motives. Because any male with a different viewpoint must have evil intent.
Ignore the guy. He's making things up out of wholecloth in an attempt to derail the topic.
Oh, I thought you were calling me "kiddo" because you're a sexist woman talking down to a man.
"Seriously kiddo?" meaning you're seriously coming on this website and trying to use that argument? And you wonder why the reactions are defensive?
Hmm...I think I'm done.
I did not say I thought formal logic was phallogocentric. I do not.
Mooserider implied I thought as much. I was simply revealing that I understood what s/he meant and denying the charge. I used "man-speak" as away of belittling the theory.
But your attempt to transform me into a sexist is rather sad. Your definition of sexism seems to be as self-serving and biased as your definition of harassment.
You're one of the guys we're talking about, aren't you. You really think yelling at women on the street is an appropriate way to get their number, don't you?
This is another distortion. Most men who often use the technique do not yell. That just wouldn't be very effective.
This guy's a troll. Why bother? We should introduce him to oenophile, and they'll probably live happily ever after.
first, it is 'phallocentric', not 'phallogocentric.'
second, i wasn't actually implying that logic was phallocentric - but that 'responding' to people's criticisms of what you say by just saying 'but that's a straw man!' or 'that's a fallacy!', etc. is 1) impressing no one, and 2) a really lazy way of making an argument.
i'm done.
This is from the Wikipedia entry on phallogocentrism:
In critical theory and deconstruction, phallogocentrism' or phallocentrism (or, originally and more narrowly, logocentrism) is a neologism coined by Jacques Derrida, which refers to the perceived tendency of Western thought to locate the center of any text or discourse within the logos (a Greek word meaning word, reason, or spirit).
It also refers to the tendential privileging of the signified over the signifier, asserting the signified's status as more natural or pure. This is manifested in the works of Plato, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Ferdinand de Saussure and Claude Lévi-Strauss, all of whom regard speech as superior to writing, since writing only represents speech.
The narrower concept of logocentrism was coined by the German reactionary philosopher Ludwig Klages in the 1920s; it refers to Western Philosophy's preoccupation with truth, reason and the word, and a belief that pursuit of pure reason and truth can reveal the underlying bases of reality. It also identifies the way in which human thought often operates in binaries such as man/woman, reality/appearance, presence/absence, heterosexual/homosexual, literal/metaphorical, transcendental/empirical, or signified/signifier. These binaries are also explored by the French theorist Hélène Cixous.
Derrida and others identified phonocentrism, or the prioritizing of speech over writing, as an integral part of phallogocentrism. Derrida explored this idea in his essay "Plato's Pharmacy".
Simply put, you are wrong.
It is truly lazy not to look to the dictionary when confronted with a word you do not know.
Commentator,
You seem to rely heavily on the suggestion that your arguments are logically correct, and that any response suggestive of the the contrary is somehow not accurate, or intellectual inferior to your position.
I think the very large dent in that assumption is in your complete negation of context. Whether or not the experience or the theories suggested by women posting on this thread meet your specific factual or historical test of accuracy, is irrelevant.
This discussion is predicated on one of the most basic pillars of feminist philosophy. That a womans lived reality, specific to the issue being discussed, ultimately is what defines the context. Your haphazard combination of misinformed theory and half baked historical narratives are nothing but male centric refutes of those experiences. Therefore, given the context of the discussion, they are not only irrelevant, but more importantly, completely off the mark.
If I, as a pro feminist male, want to be productive in a discussion about situations where I cannot objectively relate, such as this one, then actually listening to the experience of those it applies to, is a really good place to start. You might want to consider that before you respond again.
phallogocentrism does not appear in the dictionary i checked, while phallocentric does - i looked it up, thanks for assuming that i was too stupid or lazy to do so. you're really a stand up guy.
really done now.
Commentator, with all due respect, Derrida's argument for phallocentrism doesn't hold up when applied to catcalls and groping. The express purpose of each is not to engage in dialect, as would be the case with flirting, but to objectify the unwilling reciever with a one-off comment or touch, sometimes followed by harassment when the comment or touch is rebuked. Without dialect, the idea that the signified (in this case, what the caller means to say) is more important than the signifier (what the caller actually says) is bunk.
Going back to the point of post ... I have a little story. I have a pair of short-short running shorts I rarely wear because of all the comments I get when I do. "Nice legs" etc. Mostly from woman (often middle-aged or elderly woman) but also from teenagers of both sexes and gay men. It is always a little flattering and a little embarrassing. After a while it eventually felt a LITTLE bit like a small violation, the idea of strangers commenting like that on my body.
So I do emphasize with how women might not even want compliments on the street.
(Obv., I am not trying to draw any comparisons between this mostly benign experience and some of the vile stories some women here have related ... plus, I am 5-foot-11, 175 lbs., I can take care of myself).
When I was visiting England, my cousin and I were waiting for a play to start one evening, chatting by a fountain. We were both 16. A couple of men started yelling at us, and we ignored them. So they ran up behind us and pushed us both into the frigid water of the fountain. The men were white, if that's at all relevant to the discussion.
I recently made a new friend, and he's a man. As we've been getting to know each other, share stories and experiences, etc., he once stopped me and asked, after I had told him about a particularly horrible experience with advances from a man when I was a waitress, "How do you not go crazy and kill people? How is it that you can put up with that sort of treatment and stay sane?" To which I replied "That's what it's like to be a woman in our society. My experience is not exceptional." He said that it's very easy for him to forget that.
Derek, that makes sense. When I was younger, (read: 12, 13) and going through puberty, I too, found cat-calls and the like complimentary.
But as I grew older, or went through more lewd or more frequent experiences with harassment, I began to understand the meanings behind a lot of sexual phrases that myself as a twelve year old girl wasn't exposed to, I began to be offended at nearly all forms of attention to my body from strangers. It just wears on you after a while.
On a completely separate note, whenever I'm driving around with my 76 year old father and he checks out (stares) at girls that are clearly 15, 16--he gets whack to the back of his head. Can't comprehend why the man doesn't understand that looking at women your daughter's age or younger in a sexual way is offensive to her.
I love how we women are always "stuck up" for living in a world where we're always on the receiving end of the worst kind of sexual violence for which 90% of us never receive justice.
We're stuck up for not knowing our place and getting on our knees to make them feel like big men and begging for them to use us as they please.