I still like the idea I saw at Pandagon awhile back, of a plausibly young woman and a middle-aged man attending a "purity" ball posing as father and daughter, and get progressively passionate as they danced, and see how far they could go before they were thrown out.

Tough shit if you haven't got a father, isn't it?

Just like it's tough shit for wannabe quiverful moms who have fertility problems.

They must feel pretty "unwomanly" and unnatural.

I love how the thing she lists as "bad" is kissing. KISSING. And I love her uncomfortable smile when her dad is hugging her waaaay too close at the end. So freaking creepy. I pity these girls so, so much.

very elektra complex.....

hmmm... why did my post come out as from andrea? how bizarre

no wait- its ok now- guess it was my internet or comp? :S nm. sorry for spamming up the wall everyone

I think that women were created to feel accepted by men.

Barf. I was about the eat breakfast, but I am just not hungry now. Erugh.

And isn't that Leslie bitch that cunt yapping on and on about "Big Pharma". God, what a fucking idiot.

all kinds of creepy...
i like the dad's reaction to if she had sex was "she'd get pregnant" because we all know there's no such thing as contraceptives.

"It's a great day at the Abstinence Clearinghouse..."

Wait. WTF is an abstinence clearinghouse?

Did anyone see the name of the store, its the family and relationships store!!!!!

I guess if you supress "reality" long enough you will need to buy it in a store.

That woman is way weird!!!

Idolators! idolators! That's a stoning offense!!!

Notice how the "father" and "Heavenly father" are put into the same position? God (the father) created Adam/Eve and God was to be adored/loved/worshipped and supposedly Eve was supposed to feel that love in return (yet she never got to address the sky fairy herself, she had to go through Adam). Anyway, they make the analogy that earthly fathers are GOD to their daughters. That's idolatry plain and simple. When you turn Biblical concepts (and Levitical laws) against the Fundies its fun, because they are right and left sinning...you know its against the "Law" to wear poly-blend fibers? Same section as that whole homophobe stuff...I bet alot of those gowns were as sinful as an evening in the Bathhouses of San Fransico in 1979 :)

Anyway, not to defend, but I do think that its nice to recognize giving individual attention to children, but in way less creepy ways. For example, on the Cosby show Claire would take her daughters on a special date when they got their first periods to celebrate their menarche. That's lovely. Being able to carve out time, both mothers/fathers/mother/mothers/father /fathers/grandparents/etc. to give a child a sense of special time is great. Doing so because you want to make sure that you're child (daughter) understands her place as property that is either pure or impure, not a complex human being with a full and varied life, is fucked and really grounded in hatefulness. Teaching your children to develop their own sexual philosophy is important I think. I'm giving Jessica's book to my niece to read. She's 15 and I think that the first two chapters that do discuss sex do so with the already sexually active in mind more so than a feminist girl thinking about future sexual activity. So, I hope to talk with my niece once she's read the book about what she thinks about developing her own sexual philosophy...for example, I've had three partners and many more opportunities, including opportunities while doing aid work in the Andes with a hot Russian doctor, very tempting, but then I found out he was married. I tend to be cautious because of the baggage one can develop...or I should say the baggage I might develop, women are varied in their experiences and emotional responses. My sister has had over 20 lovers and in many ways had sex with guys because "why not" was all she could think of in response. She started sexual activity young and didn't develop a sexual philosophy until many years after sexual activity. Its not "bad" or "good" its just helpful when trying to get to know your own sexual self and might in some way prevent pain (or regrets from not taking opportunities).

This posint was so random, excuse please.

I really do think it's a nice idea for parents to take their kids out on "dates." but as Heather said... intentions play a big role in what's okay and what's not.

A friend of mine always said he wants to take his daughter out for dinner so she sees how she should be treated and doesn't settle for any crap. It's also important for parents to treat each other well so their kids have role models they might actually want to grow up to be like.
What you grow up with plays a big part in what you expect from life.

For my parents, taking me out to dinner is a way to catch up on what's going on in our lives and get some quality time.

but yeah. I had a hard time sitting through that video. I've had the idea of "purity" thrown in my face. It's pretty hurtful, actually. what does that make me? Impure?

I couldn't believe this footage. It's creepy to go on dates with your father and get a ring from him so that you look like you're "taken"! How sick!

While watching this video, I have been curious about how many of these women know how to masturbate. I was 23 when my boyfriend taught me and since then, I discovered that I don't NEED a man to feel pleasured. I have talked to some of my girlfriends and most of them discovered it on their own. But I have also talked to women who don't do it or don't know how. It seems that the society accepts male masturbation more than when women do it. Any thoughts?

Few things piss me off more than THIS: "Young WOMEN should be pure."

I know I'm just restating the obvious to this group, but why Why WHY (?!!) do they always talking about how important it is for a girls to be virgins, but they never address their expectations for boys? Aargh!

I love how the camera focuses close in on the girl's schoolwork: "The American Republican." There's a whole lot George Bush love in that video with regards to how he upholds abstinence and such programs. Makes me wonder about his own daughters...

The whole purity ball concept makes me ill. Staying a virgin until marriage should be a personal decision that a girl/woman makes on her own after being apprised of all the information. Birth control and safe sex really need to be addressed, as well as issues such as emotions involving sex. It's an awesome idea for both parents (or parent figures) to have one on one time with each child...but it shouldn't be about forced purity.

While I am completely freaked out with the whole virgin thing, I cannot help laughing rather helplessly at a particlar joke my dearest friend and I sued to sare, it was why wmen are asked to remain virgins, so that when they ie, they can be returned unopened.. inappropriate but something that made us both take the step to not remaining thus any more.

I could not stomach watching the whole thing...I got as far as the Dad dancing close with his daughter and his hand on her naked back and got too creeped out.

I loved dancing with my Dad when I was a kid and even a teenager to slow old country songs, but it was nothing like that.

When I was growing up I went to a Catholic school. Since the church looks down upon pre-marital sex, birth control, abortion, or anything remotely fun, we were instilled with the ideals of abstaining from all forms of sexual activity until marriage.

Thanks to the influence of the then increasingly sexualized media and popular culture, very few of us bought the abstinence pitch. It's interesting to note that the sexist and utterly foolish ideal that did prevail among us was the idea that virginity until marriage is a good thing for women but not for men. I remember the one boy who signed his virginity pledge was mocked and derided by the rest of his classmates, me included, for quite some time. What doesn't make sense to me is that these two ideals are inherently incompatible in a society that frowns upon homosexuality. It just goes to show that popular ideas are not necessarily entirely coherent nor do they necessarily benefit the people who believe them.

haha! yes! it is the Leslie of "Big Pharma" and "we love babies!" I was really wondering where they GOT those sort of people. why, the Abstinance Clearinghouse of course!

I think it's interesting toward the end how the young girl was talking about what would happen if she decided to do "bad stuff" like kissing boys or going out with boys. She did say that the Lord would forgive her and she would go on with her life, but really I'm not sure that that would be the case, given that her father said that the idea of his little girl getting pregnant would break his heart.

Also, what's with that crap about "the Lord wants us to do (blank)." Did you get a text-message from Jesus, kiddo?

And then the girl talks about how public school kids are exposed to more things so it's harder for them to keep pure. No shit, Sherlock--if you're exposed to other viewpoints, occasionally you may be able to expand your own.

Ugh. It just chaps my ass so much when people brainwash their children like that.

"Abstinence Clearinghouse" sounds like a bordello. A place to be relieved of one's abstinence.

Either that or a sweepstakes. Like Ed McMahon might pop out of your vagina with an oversized check on your wedding night.

Skilled Junkie says:

It seems that the society accepts male masturbation more than when women do it. Any thoughts?

A question: why would society's acceptance enter into it? You'd think masturbation is the ultimate private act, even more so than sex!

"A question: why would society's acceptance enter into it? You'd think masturbation is the ultimate private act, even more so than sex!"

Amit Joshi,

I imagine there are a lot of women who just don't know how to do it because it is still a taboo in the majority of society.

Like it was for me. I remember reading about it as a child in a magazine, but I thought it didn't apply to me. In my young adult years, I was sexually dependent on my boyfriends and as a result, I was never single. Not a very self-actualized way to live...

Somehow, I think that the women in the video don't masturbate. I doubt that their mothers would tell them about it. They seem so indoctrinated to stay pure and waiting for "the day" to be able to have sex (with their husbands). I don't think that the church supports masturbation. I wonder if it counts against abstinence.

To be able to masturbate was the first step to be independent for me. It was a difference between NEEDING someone and LOVING someone.

Does anyone know of any statistics on female masturbation?

The most offensive thing about that video to me is that all the host had to say at the end of the clip of "Definitely Daddy's little girls there, eh?"

Wow. Way to shake things up. I hate the fucking media.

I don't remember statistics on female masturbation offhand, but a majority of women do masturbate. Even more men masturbate though (only like 1-3% of men don't, for women it may be something like 20% I just can't remember)

Anyway society's expectations definitely enter into it. The places I've gone to school kids talked openly about how "gross" female masturbation was up until college. And I know a number of college-age females too uncomfortable to masturbate.

The mother said "I think she [my daughter] would experience a lot of pain if she did not remain pure"

Holy shit lady, you can't protect your precious child from all of life's pains and hardships. That's what makes each of us strong, unique and interesting. Experiencing break ups and having your heart broken is a part of life these days - get over it!

I'm so glad my dentist had just put me on Percocet. It makes swallowing this tripe so much easier.

This clip actually reminds me a little of my parents... my mother would always talk to us some about sex. But she'd often start talking about how she saw a study that teenage girls didn't really have sex for the sex, it was for the affection and it meant their relationships with their fathers weren't close enough or something. I questioned it a little at the time, because I was like maybe other girls really just needed to be closer with their fathers, but I personally knew I just got excited when I saw hot 15 yr-old boys.

Here's a question: for those girls who are in early to mid puberty who say they /don't/ think about sex or sexual attraction a lot, are they lying or is there perhaps just a big diversity?

No boyfriends at all and no KISSING? How in the world is she going to find a husband if she can't have a boyfriend??

No boyfriends at all and no KISSING? How in the world is she going to find a husband if she can't have a boyfriend??

On another note, the whole "pure" and "impure" thing is something that they really haven't thought out. Because, what happens when 1/3rd of the girls in that room get raped or molested? Then they are impure, and they didn't do anything voluntarily, but it doesn't matter, because they still know they are now tainted and an imperfect gift for their husbands. It's really a devastating thing for them. Awareness around such things has been growing in the Mormon community actually, because the Mormon church so strongly preaches that message of purity.

People really need to think out their philosophies before they start passing them on. :(

"Abstinence Clearinghouse" sounds like a bordello. A place to be relieved of one's abstinence.

Sells packets of ten hymens for a dollar...

Here's a question: for those girls who are in early to mid puberty who say they /don't/ think about sex or sexual attraction a lot, are they lying or is there perhaps just a big diversity?

I didn't start thinking alot about sex (aside from giggly sleepover conversations) until the end of high school. I actually figured out that I was gay before I really started thinking about sex with either boys or girls.

One day I'd love to take my niece to one of these things, and tell them that my wife and I think it's best that she stay pure until her marriage like we did. Will they wonder who the pro-abstinence lesbians came from, or kick us out for being an abomination? It'd be fun to find out. :)

Like Ed McMahon might pop out of your vagina with an oversized check on your wedding night.

Peepers, you are brilliant.

*gags*

Nothing like borderline pedophilia and brainwashing to make me lose my appetite.

No boyfriends. No kissing. Sounds like the only husband they are going to find is going to be from an arranged marriage daddy sets up. I can see it now...

Dad: Hey you, yah, you come over here!
Guy: What?
Dad: You seem like you are a decent fellow, you're a Christian right?
Guy: Yah, what's your point?
Dad: Well, I have a daughter you see, a VIRGIN daughter of marrying age. Hasn't even kissed a man.
Guy: Dude! Are you serious?
Dad: I'm serious. I'm looking for an upstanding guy who takes it seriously that a girl saved her cherry for her husband and has forsaken all other men other than respecting her father for her husband.
Guy: So you're saying, I just have to get married to your daughter and I get to pop her cherry?
Dad: You got it.
Guy: And it doesn't matter that I'm not a virgin?
Dad: Why would it matter? It is a woman's job to remain pure. She even cooks and cleans without arguement too!
Guy: So when is the wedding again?

(ok, I know that was so not politically correct, but my mind is just down in the dumps this morning :P

if they really are that religious then the girls wouldnt be masturbating since it goes against natural law (since it doesn't have a child-producing purpose). the same applies for boys and other forms of sex which don't allow reproduction- eg.oral

(i'm not a bible basher or anything- i learned that in my GCSE RS class in younger years)

Here's a question: for those girls who are in early to mid puberty who say they /don't/ think about sex or sexual attraction a lot, are they lying or is there perhaps just a big diversity?

I'll be a senior in high school this year and honestly I've rarely ever thought about sex. You make it sound as if that's all teens are able to think about, which is ridiculous. My mind's got much more interesting things to be occupied with. (math, science, dance, friends etc.)

It's been discussed on feministing before but the boys get the new "INTEGRITY BALL" where they are taught to not mess with other men's property, i.e. women. I believe it was that they should think about the girl's future husband (which might not turn out to be them) and not dirty her up because they wouldn't want some other guy dirtying up their pretty pure plaything. The guy who started the integrity ball had absolutely no idea why this thinking could be offensive to feminists.

Bill Mahr is awesome.

I didn't watch much of the video because, frankly, it was freaking me out. But, did anyone else notice that the family has 6 kids - 5 girls and 1 boy - and the boy is the youngest?

Maybe it's just a coincidence but who else gets the sense that they kept at it until the boy was born? After all, there's a kid whose purity won't be a problem for dear old Dad.

yes I saw that, about the son ebing he youngest.

Btw the dialog piece wa hilarious!!

Here's a question: for those girls who are in early to mid puberty who say they /don't/ think about sex or sexual attraction a lot, are they lying or is there perhaps just a big diversity?

I'll be a senior in high school this year and honestly I've rarely ever thought about sex. You make it sound as if that's all teens are able to think about, which is ridiculous. My mind's got much more interesting things to be occupied with. (math, science, dance, friends etc.)

i thought about sex a fair amount of the time when i was in high school even thought i wasn't having it. yet, my brain still had room for everything else. (music, politics, getting into a good college, etc.) it is normal to think about sex a lot, but i also think its normal not to. there seems to be huge diversity with women in that aspect, but i think it is all healthy as long as it isn't a result from sexual abuse, or other tramuas.
i grew up in the bible belt so i was exposed to a lot of this virginity pledge stuff, and i think it seriously harmful so that is why i don't find this video funny at all. the young women start to feel guilty about their sexuality, and for some reason a lot of the young men become sexually compulsive. these are just my experiences, but i think it seriously traumatizes both men and women.

"No boyfriends at all and no KISSING? How in the world is she going to find a husband if she can't have a boyfriend??"

My guess is arranged marriage. Lots of girls out there who aren't even allowed to have boyfriends still get married off.

"Dad: Hey you, yah, you come over here!
Guy: What?
Dad: You seem like you are a decent fellow, you're a Christian right?
Guy: Yah, what's your point?"

Then sometimes it's more like
Grandpa: Hey you, yah, you come over here!
Dad: What?
Grandpa: You haven't got all the girls off your hands yet, right?
Dad: Yah, what's your point?
Grandpa: It's time for your brother's second son to settle down...

No kissing? If no sexual activity is legal until marriage, then do we start dating after we get married? 'Cause then cheating on your spouse would be right....

EW, EW, EW!!!!! I couldn't even finish watching it. Too creepy. I love my father and we've always been very close. I guess he's just a cool dude. I am so grateful right now.

I think those girls are being screwed up for life. There's is nothing wrong with thinking about sex as a teenager, or not thinking about it. Everyone develops differently. But purity balls? A ring? Just disturbing.

Jessica Valenti's chapter (I just finished reading "Full Frontal", which I found out about on the Colbert Report) on girls being forced to make chastity pledges to their fathers freaked me out, so I have decided to "ask" my daughter (when she's ready) to give to "herself", a safe and responsible sex pledge. My daughter having sex before she graduates from high school scares the hell out of me, but I hope she knows what she's doing should she defy my advice and choose to experience sex before she is ready. Scaring your kids never accomplishes anything, and giving your daughter the message that her body doesn't belong to her, puts undo pressure on her that is certain to negatively affect her (psychologically, and in her grades, and in her self worth).

Don't scare or put pressure on your kids, if you don't have to.

Personally I would rather my daughter experience sex and relationship, as an adult, before she gets married (assuming that marriage is something that she will even be interest in), like I did, so that she can assure herself that she is compatible with her partner (again like I did), before she makes a life long pledge to be with him or her.

It's a truly fascinating morality we as a society have developed. A man's virtue is a truly nebulous thing. Philosophers of the various schools debate over where to find it: in his treatment of his family, in his treatment of others in general, in how he does business, in how he conducts himself in battle, and in so many other places.

But when it comes to a woman's virtue, we not only have a clear definition of it, there's a specific geographical-anatomical location where you can find it. What impressive precision!

It must be said that men who are this interested in their daughters' "purity" have a lot of balls.

skilled-junkie said:
"Like it was for me. I remember reading about it as a child in a magazine, but I thought it didn't apply to me. In my young adult years, I was sexually dependent on my boyfriends and as a result, I was never single. Not a very self-actualized way to live...To be able to masturbate was the first step to be independent for me. It was a difference between NEEDING someone and LOVING someone."

I think there are many women out there who feel the same way, and it distresses me deep down. (I figured masturbation out myself at a very very young age, and as a result I honest-to-God *liked* my body growing up and found the possiblity of being romantically dependent on someone absolutely repulsive. And, sorry if this sounds self-pitying, I couldn't relate to other females I knew because I found a lot of them were romantically dependent and hated their bodies. Which is why I concluded that not enough women masturbate, and this makes me want to cry a little inside.)

LOL, her name is Angela Merkel?

Anyway society's expectations definitely enter into it. The places I've gone to school kids talked openly about how "gross" female masturbation was up until college. And I know a number of college-age females too uncomfortable to masturbate.

Yes, society does enter into it. In my younger years, either it wasn't talked about at all or it was regarded as icky. Now that I'm almost 30, it's more acceptable to mention vibrators and sex toy stores with women around my age. I think the internet has done a lot to normalize masturbation, sex toys, erotic fiction, etc. for women.

Here's a link to a integrity ball:

http://www.dakotavoice.com/200701/20070115_1.html

Apparently "test driving" is completely out-of-the-question when it comes to picking spouses. Only idiots buy cars without test driving them first. I can think of no greater let-down than marrying a women who turned out not to have the same sexual interest that I did. And how can one develop sexual interest if they have no sexual experience?

Do you women actually want to marry a man who has no idea what he is doing in the bedroom? Teenage sex is some scary stuff, but marriage without learning the basics is destined to lead to misunderstandings and incompatibility issues, which are detrimental to any relationship. I am against experiencing intercourse before graduating from high school (I didn't), but I recommend to experience intercourse before you propose or accept a proposal (I test drove, avoided what I knew would be disastrous later, and found the car of my dreams).

so so SOOO FUCKING DISTURBING.

the issues that the internalization of all of this bullshit is going to create will be far worse than the poor girl losing her virginity. so sad.

and during the vows the father couldn't even look at her while he was saying them...ew ew EW.

i just threw up a little.

these are homeschool kids by and large, they have been raised in subservience to/worship of their parents. Seems a bit redundant, but I wouldn't expect evangelical homeschool parents to be that bright (secular homeschooling is said to produce favorable results, however). So, repellent as this is, keep in mind that it is not, nor shall it ever become terribly popular.

I don't understand why "purity" has to ="virginity." I seriously disagree with the idea that the only way of measuring "purity" seems to be asking whether or not someone (read: a young girl) is a virgin. Personally, after the first time I had sex, I still didn't know shit about it. I would say that I remained a sexual innocent until after I had experienced orgasms, worried about pregnancy, and bought my first vibrator. Of course, I still have a lot I can learn, I'm still young.

It bothered me how it seemed to be implied by the family in the video that parents that don't force "purity" onto their children probably don't love them very much. My parents never, ever, forced anything on me. They simply supported me in whatever I decided to do. Every time I talk to my dad on the phone, he tells me how proud he is of me. No strings attached! No "purity pledges" required. And why? Because my parents knew enough to back off and let me become my own person, and make my own choices. I think this says love waaaayyyy more than any pledging to protect my "precious gift," or forbidding me from dating, or telling me that "The Lord" (did anyone else feel like she was pronouncing a capital T?) doesn't want me to have sex. Because that would make me somehow less than I would be otherwise.

Also, why does that Leslee bitch keep getting on TV? Why don't people seem to realize she really doesn't have anything to say, other than, "Women were designed by The Lord to be baby-making machines! But only after marriage! Need to stay pure!"

Also, kudos to Feliza Navidad, Peepers, and Taisa-Marie for making me laugh after the horror of that video.

Sorry this post is so freaking long.

"Someone once asked a group of college guys, "How many of you are virgins?" The reply was, "You don't think we'd admit it, do you?" But when asked, "How many want to marry a virgin?" most of the hands went up. Don't fall for the double standard. It's okay for guys to be virgins, too." (Courtesy of Leslee Unruh's brainchild,"Alpha Health Services's" website.)

Wouldn't "not falling for the double standard" mean that it is okay for girls to not be virgins, too? The site continues to say:

"So there you have it, girls. Nobody wants to marry someone who has been the loving, meaningful relationship of 17 other guys. If sexual experience was necessary for love to grow between two people, everyone would want to marry a prostitute."

Other gems of the website include descriptions of abortion procedures which always describe the FETUS as a "tiny human baby," and a helpful chart of STI's, none of which are apparently prevented from spreading by the use of condoms. Oh and apparently having an abortion will make you infertile and could even give you breast cancer. Adoption, however, is not what it used to be!

Sick sick sick.

http://www.alphacenter.org/about/

“Does anyone know of any statistics on female masturbation?�

I've seen lots of statistic for female masturbation over the lat 25 years, but none recently. Keep in mind that all sex surveys that are self-reporting suffer from dishonesty from people in the surveys as it's the case that especially with regard to sex many of the most interesting things to researchers are the things that many people don't want to admit.

This has long been quite true where women are concerned, though most likely more of a problem fifty years ago than today.

With that in mind and the resulting fact that all these survey findings are controversial, especially when they are used to discuss historical trends (as I'm about to do), I'll tell you what I recall as a generalization of these findings as I understand them.

Basically, IIRC, fifty years ago, Kinsey found a pretty low rate of female masturbation and a high rate of male masturbation. I could look up these numbers on the web, but I'd rather you do it (it's good for you). So I'll just guess at the numbers, you'll be suspicious, and you'll have to look them up and we'll all be better off.

Um, anyway, IIRC, the Kinsey female masturbation rates were something like 15% women masturbated. Male rates were something like 80% or more.

But recent studies, for example the mammoth sexual survey I think was conducted right around 2000, show much higher rates of female masturbation, though still lower than men. Most studies, IIRC, show men masturbating at higher rates than Kinsey, maybe as high as 95%. Whatever the rate is, it's very high.

So, anyway, I think that women are approaching 70% or more in recent surveys.

I think there's a consensus that women are masturbating more than their mothers and certainly more than their mothers' mothers. But there's concern that this may just be a reporting issue and the majority of the change is due to increased honesty.

Masters and Johnson observed the rates to increase into the 80s and I believe they concluded (through interviews, surveys, I'm not sure how) that many young women were being "taught" to masturbate by their boyfriends. This accords with your anecdote, interestingly.

It's important, probably, to see this change (if it truly exists) in the same context as the similar supposed change that's happened with female anorgasmia. In Kinsey's time, the majority of women were anorgasmic, while the reported rates of regular or moderately occasional orgasm are now above 50%.

This is sometimes an even more controversial issue, as some feminists and other observers feel that a woman's ability to have an orgasm is mostly personal and organic to herself—basically that the idea that men or culture in general could radically alter a typical woman's ability to have an orgasm as demeaning to women, in a sense.

Personally, while I can see the logic and motivation of this view, I'm very strongly inclined to believe that our culture's conditioning of women regarding their sexuality is so strong and persistant that such large effects are quite reasonable.

I also recall that Masters and Johnson found that the highest correlation for rates of orgasm in women was with rates of masturbation. They also found in sex therapy that teaching an anorgasmic woman to masturbate is the most effective technique to overcome problematic anorgasmia.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised reading these comments that I'm seeing any contemporary young women who didn't masturbate until very late adolescence or their twenties.

I'm kind of an unreconstructed 70s to 80s era feminist, and a man at that—and, significantly, sex positive—and I had the strong impression that today's young women were much more comfortable with their sexuality and less alienated from it and that this would be reflected in almost everyone masturbating in adolescence.

Oh. And this video? I couldn't even begin to watch it. I started it but immediately stopped it. But while I, like others here, don't have a problem with individual young women choosing to not have sex for as long as they choose to not have sex, I do have a big problem with this whole context in which they are "choosing" this. It's unbelievably patriarchal in the most literal sense, as well as being incestuously pedophilic, though probably in a repressed sense.

There's pretty much nothing that creeps me out and angers me more than a certain kind of fatherly protectiveness and love for a daughter that just reeks of incest. That's quite likely related to the fact that my ex-wife is an incest survivor. But it really bothers me independent of that experience, I think, because it's taking something that should be really great—the parent child relationship of father and daughter—and turns it into its evil opposite.

Urk. Totally unpleasant.

But I do want to come to the programme's defence. Dan I think the best kind of reporting presents people with the facts and lets them make their own mind up. I HATE the polemical pundit-battles where opinionated idiots shout talking points at each other. I'm glad the journalists in charge of this piece let the subjects condemn themselves.

Keith, as a 20 (almost 21) year old female, I can tell you that a lot of girls my age still have a lot of body and sexuality problems. We've all heard boys talk about "beating off" since middle school, but most girls don't even like touching themselves on their vulva for medical reasons (inserting a tampon, etc) nevermind trying to masturbate. A lot of girls still think that it's "dirty" to do so, and most sex ed or "family life" classes don't help that perception.

I learned to masturbate in high school, but only after I'd become sexually active with a boyfriend and wasn't having orgasms, or even getting close. I thought there was something wrong with me. Turned out, it was him. And even though I'm in college, it's not really something I've ever heard girls talk about, not the same way guys do. My very closest girl friends and I will discuss masturbation (even go vibrator shopping together) but by and large it's still taboo for girls. Don't know why, but I just thought I'd relate my experiences with the subject : )

"Anyway, they make the analogy that earthly fathers are GOD to their daughters. That's idolatry plain and simple."

Unfortunately not, Heather. Remember that "The head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ" passage? Women are supposed to look upon their "owners" as godlike beings.

This is why I agree with that one character in Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Cafe who wanted to travel back in time and punch Saint Paul.

I've read about fathers going on a date with their daughters in order to demonstrate the kind of treatment they should expect from a suitor. That doesn't creep me out, because to me, it falls into the category of modeling proper relationship behaviour. But I don't think that fathers should be this obsessed with their children's sexuality.

It reminds me of a scene in Robin McKinley's Deerskin, which is based on a fairy tale in which a princess must fend off the advances of her own father. The heroine has had a ball thrown to introduce her to eligible noblemen, only to have her father insist on dancing with her. She decides to leave early, pleading tiredness, and the King says:

"Go back to your soft narrow bed, then, my lovely, and rest well, that beauty may blossom again on the morrow. Sleep sweetly in your white child's bed, with your lace pillows and your smooth cool sheets."

As far as masturbation goes, I'd been thinking that when I have a kid, I might, after discussing the matter with them, buy them a "sex self-sufficiency kit" with a few condoms, a condom case, a little bottle of lube, the Readiness Checklist, and one inexpensive sex toy -- a bullet for a girl, a jelly sleeve for a boy. (Anything more, they'd pay for themselves.) The latter is partly to let them know that masturbation is good, but also an attempt to prevent them from using things that aren't designed for a sexual purpose.

I haven't yet discussed this with anyone who has kids, mind you, so I haven't gotten any feedback as to whether this is a good idea.

“Keith, as a 20 (almost 21) year old female, I can tell you that a lot of girls my age still have a lot of body and sexuality problems.�

That's very sad and I'd hoped that this was much rarer than it was when I was your age. Surely, though, the typical message that contemporary adolescent women get from our culture can't be as negative and alienating as that which the women got when I was an adolescent.

“I thought there was something wrong with me. Turned out, it was him.�

I'd ask you to be a bit careful with making that judgment because women, especially young women in our culture are (arguably) not as automatically orgasmic as men are. More importantly, sexual chemistry is such that it's often the case that no blame for sexual dissatisfaction can be placed because its a function of the particular combination of the two parties involved.

That said, you are in a position, of course, to evaluate if your boyfriend was particularly inept—which many young men, in fact, are.

But a number of young women I had sex with when I was young were anorgasmic, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't me. They'd all been anorgasmic with all their other partners and, in fact, it was with me that some of them, er, came to have their first orgasms.

I really believe that women in our culture are actively alienated from their sexuality and this accounts for a portion of the anorgasmia we see in our culture.

I mean, I'm old enough to remember how women were chasing the elusive orgasm in the late 70s and early 80s when, perversely and sadly, it was almost as if it were the first time culturally that they were allowed to have them. But a great many women weren't, not even with masturabation and vibrators and whatnot.

This caused a lot of guilt, I think.

This is all problematic because one woman's orgasm can be seen by another as a criticism of another woman's sexuality when she's anorgasmic. We want to place blame. And while in some cases it's a simple matter of learning better technique, either by the woman or her partner, it's often not quite that simple. I shy away from things that seem like they are implicitly making a normative claim that any woman can have an orgasm given a few simple mechanical steps. A few mechanical steps does work for many women, but for those whom it doesn't, the implicit assumption that it should can be an unfair rebuke.

Augh! This subject is such a political minefield because it's so easy to accidentally make implicitly normative claims. I'd like to talk about this and describe different women's experiences as I've had them described to me, and experienced second-hand, so to speak, without ever making any normative claims or ever making any women feel like there's something wrong with her.

With that in mind, I'm just saying that I think that women don't find themselves having orgasms as easily as men do in our culture. The reasons for that are varied. Among them, though, I think are body images and feelings about sexuality that are profoundly influenced by our cultural values and the cultural messages we are sending to young women.

I vividly recall a four generational conversation among the females in my family about their experience of their sexuality and what they knew and actually physically experienced with their vaginas, similar to what you describe. Very vagina monologues...this is the way my family is.

Anyway, everyone was astonished and a little disturbed when my great-grandmother revealed that she thought the she urinated directly from her vagina. She'd never looked at herself, never examined herself. She didn't know.

I think womens' experience with their sexual bodies and their comfort with them has changed for the better of the last hundred years in the US. How much, though, I don't know. From your experiences, it sounds like it hasn't changed as much as I wished it had.

This was actually my experience of watching the Vagina Monologues. It made me mad because there were women that seemed too young to me to still be suffering from this alienation.

I'd say, though, that being 20 years old and shopping for a vibrator is indicative of more progressive and healthy changes from when I was 20. I suspect, though can't know, that such an activity would have been much more outre then than it is now. That has to represent a change for the better in the bedroom.

Keith,

"But a number of young women I had sex with when I was young were anorgasmic, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't me. They'd all been anorgasmic with all their other partners and, in fact, it was with me that some of them, er, came to have their first orgasms."

Most women can have orgasms, just not through intercourse. Meaning with adequate communication, patience, and experimentation, most women could have orgasms with most guys. If a woman says her not having an orgasm is a guy's fault, I think it's safe to assume she means she felt he wasn't particularly interested in working with her and finding out what she liked so that she could have an orgasm.

"I'd say, though, that being 20 years old and shopping for a vibrator is indicative of more progressive and healthy changes from when I was 20. I suspect, though can't know, that such an activity would have been much more outre then than it is now. That has to represent a change for the better in the bedroom."

I'm sure society is more progressive than it was a generation ago. Doesn't mean it doesn't have a long way to go. Also, this thread has little to do with how to make the bedroom experience more fun for men/everyone, it's about the way women's sexuality is treated.

Just some of the posts sparked a memory of a convo I had with a female friend of mine from high school a few years ago when we were talking about different types of sex, fetishes, mastrubation, etc...

She said (basically), "I thought about a lot of this stuff in high school, but thought no one else did." and "I wish we'd have known then that we (people in general) wanted to talk about it and understand it."

It isn't like I am that old (only 24), but all I have to say is thank god for the Internet and poor parental controls in the 90s... as well as Real Sex on HBO. For all the negative sexual imagery towards females that is out there, knowing it is there and knowing that there was more than one 'normal' went a long way towards me feeling comfortable with myself. Sheltering kids from so much is just counterproductive. :P

“Most women can have orgasms, just not through intercourse. Meaning with adequate communication, patience, and experimentation, most women could have orgasms with most guys. If a woman says her not having an orgasm is a guy's fault, I think it's safe to assume she means she felt he wasn't particularly interested in working with her and finding out what she liked so that she could have an orgasm.�

Yes, I agree and I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought otherwise.

“Also, this thread has little to do with how to make the bedroom experience more fun for men/everyone, it's about the way women's sexuality is treated.�

Yeah, that's all I've been discussing and am interested in. I'm not sure how you got another impression. When I said that I thought this had translated into a change for the better in the bedroom, that was just a euphemism for saying that an increased cultural acceptability for young women buying vibrators hopefully indicates a similar improvement in their sex lives. Whether alone, or with a partner of either sex. Or multiple partners. Whatever.

That I'm male, it's natural that you or anyone else would interpret my caution about blaming the boyfriend as a partisan defense. My concern really isn't for the boyfriend. In fact, I should have immediately switched to "partner", because it's not the gender of the partner that matters, either.

My concern is chiefly the possible implicit normative claim about female sexuality in some women's claims that it's their partner's fault they aren't/weren't orgasmic. There's a couple of hidden messages possible in this that I think are harmful.

The first is the resurrection of the hoary old "orgasms are something that another person does to a woman" (worse when "another person" is "a man"). That he/she gives her an orgasm.

It's really striking, I think, that men rarely would speak about an orgasm they've experienced in that way. Man have orgasms. Men aren't given orgasms by someone else. However, men, especially, will use this language about their sexual experiences with women with regard to the their partner's orgasms. And some women will use this language, too. Bottom line is that the determining factor in when a woman has an orgasm shouldn't be seen as whether or not her partner does the right thing. That implies a passive and disempowered relationship between a woman and her sexuality.

The second is what I mentioned in my previous comment. If we think of a woman's orgasm as something that is primarily or purely a function of the competence of her partner, then the we're also saying that all women are automatically orgasmic given competent skill in their partner.

That has direct implications for a woman when she's her partner, for example. Suppose a woman masturbates and masturbates and can't have an orgasm. Well, especially if she's been told how to "do it right", she's then likely to feel like she's defective. After all, it's automatic if it's done right, isn't it?

And this double-edged sword of assumed automatic female orgasmia applies with partners, as well. Say a woman does have a very good partner. Not just "technically" good, whatever that means, but also communicative, daring, confident, supportive, patient...everything. And she still doesn't have an orgasm. Again, if she's being told that orgasms happen when her partner is doing everything right, then she's liable to think that she's defective.

As long as a substantial portion of women are anorgasmic, I think that promulgating an idea of automatic orgasmia, partner-dependent orgasmia, is likely to likely to hurt the women that are, nevertheless, anorgasmic as much as it helps the women who become orgasmic because they believe it is possible and they figure out how. One group is empowered by this message, but the other is even more disempowered and insecure.

I don't know what is normative, I want to avoid any normative language so that there no implication of abnormality for anyone. I agree with you that “with adequate communication, patience, and experimentation, most women could have orgasms�, but if I were to assert this, I'd include a whole bunch of conditionals so that it maximizes the message to women about what they can (be able to) do and minimizes any message about what they should (be able to) do.

"As far as masturbation goes, I'd been thinking that when I have a kid, I might, after discussing the matter with them, buy them a "sex self-sufficiency kit" with a few condoms, a condom case, a little bottle of lube, the Readiness Checklist, and one inexpensive sex toy -- a bullet for a girl, a jelly sleeve for a boy. (Anything more, they'd pay for themselves.) The latter is partly to let them know that masturbation is good, but also an attempt to prevent them from using things that aren't designed for a sexual purpose."

I have kids, and I will say I think it is a good idea ShifterCat.

I went into my first sex shop at the age of 21 with my then 17 year old girl friend (whom I never had sex with), and everything I saw that first time made me feel uncomfortable. My friend noticed my unease, and asked "why?" I told her that I had always just used my hand, and that touching something that wasn't human and alive really turned me off. She and the story clerk then gave me the grand tour of all the merchandise, and explained how pleasurable everything was and why. They then made buy a sex toy to use on my friend, so that I could really learn what turned women on. We didn't have sex, but I still gave her lots of orgasms with a remote controlled vibrator that seemed to fit everywhere. My outlook on sexuality completely changed that day, and from that day forward I have always thought of sex as a from of hobby that required skill and technique to be good at. I still prefer my hands when I masturbate, and the only time I ever use sex toys is with women, but I know how to give women orgasms, without having to enter them.

I dread the day that I have to have that "special talk" with my children, but I am going to teach them (though lecture only) that safe and responsible sex is a lot of fun when you're old enough and mature enough to enjoy it, and that masturbation is a good and completely safe way to get in touch with your body and find out what you really find exciting (but I will impress upon them to only do it in a place where nobody can walk in on them). And when they reach the age of 17 (assuming they are doing well in school), I think I will also give them a "sex self-sufficiency kit" like you suggested ShifterCat.

My wife is cringing as she reads this over my shoulder.

"And how can one develop sexual interest if they have no sexual experience?"

I have sexual interests and I'm a virgin.

What am I supposed to do instead, not think about sex and about what turns me on or off until (and unless) someone wants to have sex with me?

I am sure that a lot of men/boys want to have sex with you Mina (and I have no idea who you are you). But no, you don't have to have sex with them to learn what you want (in fact don't have sex with anyone unless you are mature enough, and ready).

My comment was directed at boys taking the integrity pledge, and it was to suggest that they could also experience sex without having to lose their virginity (I did), and that it is better for them to find out what you want sexually before they marry. If you (anyone) are saving yourself for marriage, you will probably be setting yourself up for a huge disappointment (and you may find yourself in a marriage that is not sexually mutually conducive).

If you are saving yourself (anyone) for marriage, then you have my respect and support, but I still recommend that you learn what you want sexually before you get married.

I meant to write "what women want sexually before they marry." I did not mean to direct that comment in anyway exclusively at you Mina.

I know nothing about you, and I hope I have not suggested or implied that I do.

If I offended you in any way I apologize. And please don't do anything sexual unless you are mature enough and ready.

"I am sure that a lot of men/boys want to have sex with you Mina (and I have no idea who you are you)."

If anyone does want sex with me, he forgot to tell me about it.

"But no, you don't have to have sex with them to learn what you want (in fact don't have sex with anyone unless you are mature enough, and ready)."

I'm 28.

Trust me! There are men out there that are interested in you. If you are a woman, then there are men who will want you.

You are a woman right? I am certain that somewhere there is a man out there that will love you for you for who you are (even if you (anyone) are a man or a transsexual). It may take a long time to find him, but you will.

Just because you are 28 doesn't necessarily mean that you are mature enough and/or ready.

I really don't want you to tell me anything about yourself that you don't want to tell me.

I figured you were probable about 19-21 and a 100% straight woman, but I guessed wrong, so I apologize (and also if I guessed wrong in other way). I hope I am not making you feel uncomfortable.

From your comments you seem like a very intelligent person, and that in and of itself is very attractive to a lot of people.

Sorry all that came out as gibberish.

I really don't know what to say to you Mina

Hi, my name is Itazura (which means trouble maker in Japanese)

I'm 30 something with a wife and 2 kids, and I work in the IT field.

As a 24 year old virgin female who is definitely not "saving it for marriage" I can say that I find my situation kind of embarrassing. I'm a sex positive person ect. It just hasn't happened. Sigh.

Peepers beat me to it, but I'm commenting anyway:

"It's a great day at the Abstinence Clearinghouse..."
Wait. WTF is an abstinence clearinghouse?

It's like Publisher's Clearinghouse, only they send out letters saying, "You may have already perforated one million hymens!"

Hey, Keith.

I get that what you are talking about is women's sexual autonomy, self-sufficiency, and subjectivity and I get how that fits in with this discussion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and story. I am always fascinated to hear about how things have and have not changed over the past few generations. I totally wish I could hang with your great-grandma.

"And when they reach the age of 17 (assuming they are doing well in school), I think I will also give them a "sex self-sufficiency kit" like you suggested..."

Everyone's mileage varies, but by the time I was 17, I was already having safer sex. I wouldn't have refused such a kit, but I would have wondered why I didn't get it two or three years earlier. (Better to have something and not need it than to need it and not have it.)

Of course, I think that such a kit should, if at all possible, be given to a young girl by her mother or another mature female relative, not by her father. So when the time comes, it'd be best for you to follow your wife's decision.

Your point about the language of being "given" orgasms rather than "having" them is quite interesting, Keith. I'm pretty sure that I usually use the terms "having orgasms" (still passive, but not explicitly dependent on another person), or "orgasming" (active). But I have to admit that it's not a usage I ever thought much about.

"Of course, I think that such a kit should, if at all possible, be given to a young girl"

Which reminds me, why do so many people use the term "young girl" for female teenagers instead of female toddlers? I mean, among girls, teens are the oldest of 'em. ;)

"by her mother or another mature female relative, not by her father. So when the time comes, it'd be best for you to follow your wife's decision."

OTOH that could sometimes lead to a double standard when a straight couple's kids aren't all the same gender.

"Which reminds me, why do so many people use the term "young girl" for female teenagers instead of female toddlers? I mean, among girls, teens are the oldest of 'em."

To me, "young girl" means "still in the girlhood stage, but no longer little". I'd call a female toddler a "little girl".

"OTOH that could sometimes lead to a double standard when a straight couple's kids aren't all the same gender."

One would hope that the couple discusses the matter thoroughly, then. :)

The only reason I'd hesitate to encourage a man to give his daughter a gift of sex necessities is because our society constantly and suspiciously scrutinizes any older male / younger female relationship for signs of sexual predation. Once a girl hits puberty, she becomes acutely aware of this and can't help but internalize some of it.

"Which reminds me, why do so many people use the term "young girl" for female teenagers instead of female toddlers? I mean, among girls, teens are the oldest of 'em."

To me, "young girl" means "still in the girlhood stage, but no longer little". I'd call a female toddler a "little girl".

Interestingly, I have never heard anyone refer to a 14-17 year old boy as a "young boy". That term is almost always reserved for the under-10s. But then, I've never heard a guy my age referred to as a "boy", and I'm referred to as a "girl" all the time.

"Interestingly, I have never heard anyone refer to a 14-17 year old boy as a "young boy"."

I have, but only in a homoerotic context. This would seem to mean that people say "young boy/girl" when they're recognizing someone's budding sexuality. Females are sexualized a lot more (playing Captain Obvious here, I know), so it makes sense that you hear the term "young girl" a lot more than "young boy".

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Females are sexualized a lot more (playing Captain Obvious here, I know), so it makes sense that you hear the term "young girl" a lot more than "young boy".

I hear "young boy" plenty, but it always refers to boys under the age of 10, whereas I have even heard "young girl" used to refer to women in their early 20s in some cases.

The clip in and of itself had a big enough “ick� factor for me. But, unfortunately, I watched it while I am in the middle of reading “Lolita� (a classic about a 30 something year old man who is attracted pretty exclusively to girls between 9 and 14). I could totally see the main character taking his stepdaughter to a purity ball. Not to say that all or even any of these fathers are incestuous, just that those undertones seem clear to me.

"I hear "young boy" plenty, but it always refers to boys under the age of 10, whereas I have even heard "young girl" used to refer to women in their early 20s in some cases."

Really? Oh well, there goes my little hypothesis.

ShifterCat

I really like your "kit" idea, but I don't want either of my kids to have such items before they are 17, and I pray to god(dess) that they don't have sex before they graduate from high school. I didn't have sex till I was 19, and neither did my wife, and that is a "value" that we are going to impress upon our kids. I was thinking of giving the "kits" as a sort of rites-passages thing, which is how I thought that you had intended they be given. I think teenage sex is all around dangerous, I have always felt that way, and I think there is little grounds to argue that teenage sex is in anyway good. Sex is great, but only when you are mature enough and ready for it, and someone without a high school diploma (or equivalent) is definitely not ready for sex.

Also I often think of myself as giving orgasms to my wife. I never thought of that as a sexist thing to say, just as I don't thing giving my wife head (which is often how she gets orgasms) is a sexist thing to say. Lovers can give each other orgasms.