I think that's an excellent point. It's the same issue as the pro-forced-pregnancy men who tell me, "But in some countries, they only abort girls! You're a feminist, shouldn't you be against abortion in those circumstances?"

Problem: Misogynist social attitudes create a problem for women.

Solution #1: Ban the solution, because as a response to misogyny it too is sexist.

Solution #2: Allow women the safety they need while working to change the social attitude.

Funny, I always thought real conservatism had more to do with tradition than authoritarianism, but every one of them went for #1...

There's a very interesting related discussion on a similar article in today's Salon:

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2007/06/06/kotb/index.html

How is it that your father would notice whether your hymen was intact, but not whether you went in for hymenoplasty? Really, I would think that the doctors who perform the inspections to certify virginity have the responsibility to either lie or refuse to perform it to begin with. Of course it's better to get surgery than to get murdered, but that's no reason to ignore the obvious problems in a relationship where you'll be murdered - for any reason.

I went to the Anthropologist Wannabe blog, too, to check out the comments. First off, a naive question: how do women's family members find out their hymen is gone? This deeply troubles me. And if they have the werewithal to do that much (whether they physically check or rely on a doctor), who's to say that women who get hymenoplasty won't get discovered by their families? I agree with Lesbia's Sparrow that we should focus our energy on "solution #2" instead of hemming and hawing about whether it's misogynist. It's obviously not a permanent solution to anything on its own.

“But how do we turn our backs on these women who in all likelihood could be killed by their fathers, brothers or husbands (Honor killings) if it is found out that they are not virgins?

In all likelihood the fathers, brothers, and husbands who would kill a non-virginal woman suck ass; these women should be removed from such an environment.

Blood on the sheet on the wedding night is still the primary method of determining if the bride was a virgin. Some women abrade their vaginal tissue prior to having sex, to ensure there'll be blood.

I agree that it sucks that this stuff is going on. But it is. Women are being killed. Don't we want to prevent more deaths WHILE working on longer term solutions?

As far as taking them away, where should they be taken, and by whom? And can we assume that because of this troubling tradition that they WANT to be whisked away, never to see a member of their family again? Even if their desire to stay could be classified as some kind of internalized self-loathing, would that make it any less traumatic to be shipped all alone to, say, the US, where we're *so* enlightened?

I lived in the middle east for several years, and their culture is really truly and deeply different from western culture. The judgments go in both directions though: they think it's disgraceful that family members in the US often live so far apart from each other. They think we don't love our parents, children, and siblings as much as they do. It's hard to reconcile that notion with honor killings, isn't it? These issues are complex.

I can't pretend to fully understand the culture wars that are going on in Europe, but it really bothers me that anyone would limit the medical options of others based on cultural biases (well-intentioned or no).

I think it's not a great procedure since there is no strictly medical advantage to having a hymen, and I think we should be working to eliminate the social pressures that cause women to seek hymenoplasty, but other women's medical decisions are none of my business.

Even if their desire to stay could be classified as some kind of internalized self-loathing, would that make it any less traumatic to be shipped all alone to, say, the US, where we're *so* enlightened?

This is why the aforementioned Salon thread is interesting. I think a lot of people on both sides have very valid points. On the one hand, you're not "tolerant" if you don't accept all aspects of a culture. On the other hand, you appear to be "supporting" the misogyny by leaving the women in that situation (while trying to change), even if change is unlikely in the near future.

I don't claim to be all-enlightened, but I'm just examining this instance at face value, tradition notwithstanding (let's not mistake this for ethnocentrism, and not accuse people of this when exploring the topic). It's possible to do this and still be open to other aspects of a culture. For instance, I can appreciate the architecture of Vatican City while loathing the politics.

All the above, plus there is no medical way to prove/determine if a woman is a virgin or not. Not all of us even bleed the first time we have straight sex.

Not that such logic would matter to the kind of people who would kill a woman based on the status of her hymen! Just sayin'.

I never had a hymen. I guess it's a good thing I wasn't born into a muslim family. I have always wondered about that actually, because I can't be the only one who never had one.

I'm not convinced that this will wind up actually helping women. Isn't there a risk that if recreating the hymen becomes widespread, women who are at risk of harm due to losing their virginity will be subject to suspicion when they seek medical care? I would be really concerned that the practice's ultimate effect will be to make it more difficult for women to have access to doctors and care that's medically necessary.

I remember reading about re-hymening surgery in Chatelaine magazine or something a very, very long time ago. Like, 15 or 20 years ago. 'Honour' killings weren't mentioned, but the fear of 'dishonouring' the family was. It was about women from the Middle East going off to university in the West, having active sex lives, and then returning home to arranged marriages.

Just in case any of you thought this was a recent development.

You're not the only one. I never experience the whole "blood on the sheets" thing either. Whether my hymen broke previously in my life that I don't remember, or I never had one at all, I'm not sure, but it certainly was not a marker of my virginity. Also, I discovered that doctors definitely can't tell if a woman is a virgin or not, since at my last doctor's visit my gynocologist thought I had never been sexually active, though I had been for two years. (A bit troubling in itself, since she's been my doctor for several years and I had started birth control pills two years before, specifically because I was planning to have sex, which I had told her, but that's besides the point.)

First off, a naive question: how do women's family members find out their hymen is gone?

I echo what several other women have already said: many of us don't have a hymen, or at least one of much consequence. And they can simply go away on their own. I have never noticed my own (if I have/had one) being of any inconvenience.

When I was younger, I was very grateful for the illustrations & explanation in Our Bodies , Ourselves, which show just how diverse vaginal openings can be. Unfortunately, the pics aren't in the online version, but they write:

Hymens come in widely varying sizes and shapes. For most women the hymen stretches easily—by a finger as well as by a dildo, penis, or tampon. Even after it has been stretched, little folds of hymen tissue remains.

You may or may not be able to see the remains of your hymen, because they disappear for different reasons and at different times. Exercising, using a tampon, the hormonal changes during puberty, and sexual activity can all cause the hymen to disintegrate. Whether or not you have a visible hymen says nothing about whether or not you have had sex—it is impossible to tell simply by looking at a woman’s hymen whether she has had sexual intercourse.

(Me again) I've always wondered why people always equated bleeding hymens with virginity (how did it get started?) given the variety. It seems like a pretty fundamental non-knowledge about the body.

I've always wondered if maybe there is a "wishful thinking" element going on. Yes, obviously SOME women will bleed the first time they have sex, but not all, and I am living proof of that. I think there is a certain element of the idea of "losing virginity" and that the woman should suffer for being such a whore. I mean, how dare she have sex with the husband she was forced to marry and have sex with? She's a slut! I think on some level some men are WISHING women would bleed the first time as some sort of penance, as sick as that may be.

"How is it that your father would notice whether your hymen was intact, but not whether you went in for hymenoplasty?"

Maybe they're more worried about in-laws than fathers?

For example, your mother-in-law could feel whether your hymen is intact when she sticks her finger in the night before the wedding, but not see whether you went for any surgery the year before the wedding (assuming she's not your aunt and already living in another wing of your house the year before the wedding).

"I agree that it sucks that this stuff is going on. But it is. Women are being killed. Don't we want to prevent more deaths WHILE working on longer term solutions?"

Exactly.

"I lived in the middle east for several years, and their culture is really truly and deeply different from western culture."

As if there's one middle eastern culture and one western culture?

Is hymonoplasty physically dangerous? Surely surgically attaching a piece of flesh for the sole purpose of allowing it to be torn again could be bad for your body. What about women who break their hymens when they are still virgins (exercise, injuries, etc)-what happens to them? Do women have to go through the same pain of the hymen breaking as when they lost their virginity?
(These aren’t arguments, but genuine questions)

I think the point is interesting, as it provides women with some sense of security, but at the same time it still works on the familiar premise that the symptoms of misogyny are the true problems to be tackled rather than the misogyny itself.

There was a comment in one of the recently discussed articles that this surgery (referred to as "the embroidery") had changed his mind about caring whether he married a virgin or not...counterfeiting virginity devalued the currency of the hymen.
That's a BENEFIT, to my way of thinking. I am more about the survival of the woman than about mandating her ethics...dead people can't make choices.