It certainly is.

Moderation, por favor!!

I live half a block away from this mailbox and every time I go to send mail, it makes me smile. Glad to see this posted!

Wow, somebody didn't take their meds.
For those who live in NY/NJ: I used to take the Raritan Valley train line all the time. If you take the train westbound (Going to High Branch) & sit on the right side of the car, you'll see some grafitti that says "Support Vaginal Pride." I haven't ridden that line in a long time, I hope that the graffitti is still there.

Totally support the graffitti, less than thrilled with the comments. Ugh. I hate people.

what, exactly, does it mean to "waste" one's vagina? to me it has strange overtones of abstinence (until marriage), or the importance of bearing children. hmm...?

Shlongy: why not, for accuracy's sake, re-name yourself "half-eaten Tic-Tac" and be done with it?

I don't think this is pro-abstinence; if it is, it's more along the lines of sex-positive abstinence (and yes, there is such a thing!) - that whole Biblical "bring pleasure to each other" thing.

(unfortunately, this seems like it needs to be said: i'm a loyal reader and faithful feminist, and genuinely want to know!)

I guess when I think of not wasting something - I think of using it. Like, "a mind is a terrible thing to waste". An example - using brain cells to respond to unfortunate comments would be a waste of your mind.

To me - it means using your vagina and enjoying sex (safe and consentual sex of course) or masturbation.

Adam,

We gave birth to you. Little common courtesy, please.

To "Not waste your vagina" means to enjoy it!
Masturbate, have sex, and enjoy all those fabulous feelings that it can create! Did you know the clit has more nerves than the entire penis? Hooray for Clits!

PS - is there some way to prevent the losers who have posted offensive comments from ever posting on here again?! I love this blog, and people like that just ruin it :-(

what the MOTHER FUCK is going on with the comments? Knock, knock--is this thing on?

oen- best not to respond.

thanks for your explanations - they make sense. :) i still feel a bit uncomfortable with the sentiment - perhaps because it implies a certain "should" with respect to the female body. 'waste' is a pretty strong word - do we really want to judge a woman for using (or not using) her body in a certain way? the idea of "pride" seems like a more neutral one, somehow.

I know your pro-life oenophile, but I think Adam and shlongy should be aborted :)

This graffiti struck me as misogynist, actually.
Read it as though a piggish man (maybe one of our trolls) were saying it to you.
To me it says, "I'm entitled to fuck you; your vagina is a terrible thing to waste (by not fucking me)."

I can see how some of these negative interpretations could happen . . . but I personally saw it as a very positive message-- don't waste your time fucking people you don't want to fuck, don't waste your time worrying about what people will think if you fuck the people you want to fuck, don't waste your time being unhappy with your body and sexuality. I thought of it as "your mind is a terrible thing to waste," too. In other words, appreciate it and enjoy it.

DAMN STRAIGHT, TABITHA. Heck, that's just public service. It's too late now, but I'll take mandatory sterlisation. ;)

SM: Maybe it's my eternal optimism, but I read that as everything from "Don't waste your body on crappy men," to "don't waste your time having bad sex," and "don't settle for anything less than fantastic pleasure, because that is what your body was made for."

(In my world, for me, the right man would be a husband, but I completely understand that other people feel differently.)

"what, exactly, does it mean to "waste" one's vagina? to me it has strange overtones of abstinence (until marriage), or the importance of bearing children. hmm...?"

OTOH it reminded me a little of a Usenet thread I saw years ago in which someone claimed that not fucking a young teenager was like leaving a car on blocks rusting for years. o_O

Looks like elementary school's let out for summer...

Hi - I'm Lug-Alug and while I am trying to be really shocking, I'm really just mad at my mommy for taking away my playstation

i have to agree that the message to me, when i read this was that 'we' women should be putting out. i can see the other interpretations though.

moderator, it would seem that we have some juveniles posting on this site. Could we have the children removed please?

i enjoy lurking and reading opposing views, but comments about tagging out vaginas strike me as something someone with the emotional age of 10 might post. i'm an old school feminist. Children should be seen and not 'heard' ON ADULT BLOGS WHERE ADULTS ARE DISCUSSING IDEAS IN AN ADULT MANNER.

Addendum: You can't waste something that does not have intrinsic worth.

Seriously, what's up with the creep influx?

Here's the thread where a Feministing link was dropped.

I'm now disengaging.

http://www.ubersite.com/m/108895

"We have all grown weary of destroying one another. We try, but the hate just isn't there.

It's time to expand our horizons, kids.

Here's the plan...you're all a bunch of fucking computer losers who don't do any work all day and basically cost your employers money. Why not go out of your way to make other people as miserable as yourselves and make money at it?

Seek out forums, invite your Uber comrades on down, and proceed to try and wreck someones shit up.

Just post a link and say 'have at it'. You can label it as a part of Project Search & Destroy if you'd like, though really what's a name when the end goal is really just being as big a dickhead as you possibly can?

Sounds like a grand plan, eh?

For the first installment, we could all mosey on over to this unmoderated forum here: http://feministing.com/

Rabid feminists! What a better starting point for the Pro-Rape crowd, eh? "

Real charmers.

dear lord, i run out to get a haircut and come back to this shit. sorry folks, for the troll madness. cleaning house now.

Thanks for cleaning up the place.

I had the same initial response to the graffitti as a couple of others, which is that it seemed well-intentioned, but sort of of-puttingly vag-centric. Like maybe it had been written by someone who is sex positive, but has some mistaken ideas about female sexuality.

Oohhhh! It's all pretty and clean again! :)

(One of them called me a commie. :) Considering that I'm a card-carrying member of several conservative orgnisations, that really cracks me up.)

"Children should be seen and not 'heard' ON ADULT BLOGS WHERE ADULTS ARE DISCUSSING IDEAS IN AN ADULT MANNER."

Well, that's not condescending. I'm a fourteen year old girl and I read this blog regularly. I even leave comments every once in a while. To tell me (and I realize you were talking to the people, or "trolls" as you call them, whose comments were deleted, but I'm still offended) that I can't understand or participate in your conversations is ageist and immature. See how easy it is to just call someone immature? It isn't at all necessary to offend young feminists by grouping them in with your impression of their generation!

Alien_she:

There is no requirement that every venue cater to the lowest common denominator. This is a blog designed for women in their late teens, twenties, and early thirties. People are expected to act in a manner befitting those age ranges.

If you are truly mature, it should not matter whether not you are 14; if you are immature (please see deleted comments for a good example of "immature,") then age is irrelevant. Nevertheless, the standard is that those who comment will do so in a manner befitting thinking, educated, adult persons.

If you can do that at age 14, more power to you. If you only see that and see "ageist," then you don't belong on adult sites.

What I find ageist is that your way of dealing with the trolls is by calling them young. Actually, I WAS just let out of school. So? Does that mean that I can't positively contribute to conversation? Not all teenagers are immature and unable to articulately express their opinions. I'm not defending what the other people said (I don't actually know what that is because their comments were deleted before I got here); I'm just suggesting you don't attack them for their age. It's insulting to people of the same age who are able to process your 'adult' concepts (and adults is in quotes because I'm pretty sure feminism is relevant to younger people as well). I agree that age shouldn't matter if one is truly mature. Which means you shouldn't use age as an insult to those who act immaturely.

I hope you all use your Vagina Powers responsibly.

alien_she: As someone who has been "responsibly" contributing to internet forums intended for older people since before I was even a teenager (it's amazing what a little eloquence and good typing skills will do for people's perception of you when you're young, isn't it?), I totally see where you're coming from. I completely agree. I see ageism as well. But you have to keep in mind, when you are in your early twenties, as I am now, it can become tempting to engage in a little bit of the same ageism that was so prevalent in older people's relation to you when you were young.

I remember when I turned 21 and first became aware that the music geared toward teenagers suddenly sounded young and whiny to me, saying to myself for the first time, "Damn teenagers." It was a gut reaction, and though it greatly amused me that I was finally allowed to say it (like entrance to a secret club), and on some level I actually knew that I was right, the small part of me that still felt like a teenager secretly felt a little ashamed.

I guess what I'm saying is that you'll understand, at least better than you do right now, when you get a little older, how adults can be immature and right at the same time when they make statements that, on their face, sound ageist. Apologies if this in any way sounds condescending. It's certainly not meant to be. Some things really do come to you only with age.

“This is a blog designed for women in their late teens, twenties, and early thirties.�

*Late* teens? Really? Not early teens? Early teens can’t be feminists?

I don’t think that’s accurate OR helpful.

"'This is a blog designed for women in their late teens, twenties, and early thirties.'

"*Late* teens? Really? Not early teens? Early teens can’t be feminists?"

Sure girls can be feminists too, and the statement you quoted doesn't deny that at all. You know, like the way it doesn't deny the fact that 60-year-olds can be feminists too. :)

"This is a blog designed for women in their late teens, twenties, and early thirties" definitely doesn't mean the same thing as "only women in their late teens, twenties, and early thirties can be feminists."

First of all: On WHAT?! I don't get it.

Second: I, too, have contributed to forums since I was 12 or 13. (And I also shared the good habit of typing legibly, so few people really noticed other than the fact that I was sometimes TERRIBLY naive.) It's really condescending and rude to make fun of teens, and I hate the attitude people have towards teenagers. Sure, most of us are immature, but there are a few who are just as mature as an adults and often exceed certain adults in maturity!

Maybe I'm still naive at 18, but I think teens would act more mature if given the opportunity and the expectation.

They've got that right.

You're only young once, but you can be immature forever. The Internet tends to demonstrate this in the worst possible ways.

Anyway...

OTOH it reminded me a little of a Usenet thread I saw years ago in which someone claimed that not fucking a young teenager was like leaving a car on blocks rusting for years. o_O

Yeah, I get the same feeling from this picture...

"This is a blog designed for women in their late teens, twenties, and early thirties" definitely doesn't mean the same thing as "only women in their late teens, twenties, and early thirties can be feminists."

You’re right Mina, and in an effort to be polite yet still try to make a point, my post was very brief, and thus susceptible to deconstruction. So I’ll toss brevity out the window, and while still wanting to be polite, here goes:

If you scroll to the very bottom of the feministing page, the line reads “By and for young feminists…� It doesn’t say “By and for late teens on up…� And this is why the line I quoted bothered me.

When Oenophile decided that she was qualified to define exactly for whom this site was designed, she replaced “young feminists�, the phrase used by the creators of this site, with “…late teens, early twenties etc.�.

She intentionally worded herself to omit early teens, which comes across to me as bullying, condescending, and aggressive toward alien_she. She worded herself in a way that intentionally stated to alien_she that this site was not designed for people her age, since alien-she is not in her late teens.

And I think that is wrong on several levels. I think there’s a more constructive way to react to a post you find fault with than to isolate the person by declaring the site was not designed for them, and then describing the conditions under which they should leave.

Alien_she wasn’t sticking up for immature trolls, rather I think she was pointing out that age was not necessarily the problem and thus grouping all younger folks in with the dorks was not fair. And I agree with her on that – I would bet a fair amount of money that the trolls were older than 14. They might be in college, might be 27 and living in their parents’ basement.

Isn’t discussion the point, rather than finding a way to get a sincere person to leave?

Sayna: Teenagers who have the opportunity to be as mature as adults are a very rare breed, and part of that is, like it or not, simply due to their age.

The tendency to think that you know and understand much, much more than you actually do is (hopefully) strongest in the teen years. There are understandable reasons for this, but the opportunity and expectations you speak of can only go so far toward imparting the knowledge gained from experiences that you simply can't have had as a teenager.

I agree that there are many adults who lag behind the bell curve in terms of maturity, but compare their ability to manage a checkbook, cook for themselves, think realistically about long-term relationships, etc. to that of your average 18-year-old, and you'll probably find that the results come out in the older person's favor. Intellectually and emotionally, you may be far more mature than they are, but they've most likely got you beat in life experience points.

ccall and alien_she:

Reguardless of how others define it, this site is meant for YOUNG FEMINISTS, as you both were trying to point out. I don't think others realize that when they insult jerks by calling their age into question can be just as insulting as calling a man something feminine. I would also bet good money that those guys were in their late teens, 20's or 30's. The only reason they come on this forum and say the garbage they do is to try to get a rise out of the community. They might not have even meant some of what they posted, they just wanted to push buttons. I see this all the time in my video games. There are young people that behave respectfully and are a joy to interact with, and there are old people that are complete asshats because they can be. Unfortunately, the bad behavior is attributed to the young people, EVEN IF THEY DON'T DESERVE IT. Please don't stop coming to this site because some people made a mistake, because your views are just as important as everyone else's that respectfully contributes.

Attack away, if it makes you feel better about life.

Alien_she reacted (quite immaturely, IMHO) to a comment towards some pretty ugly people. I say that her response was immature for a very simple reason: she absolutely failed to consider the behaviour that spawned a comment that wasn't even addressed at her.

Alien_she: do us all a favour. Before you get wound up about ageism, please click on the Ubersite link and see some of the comments that were posted here. Re-read the comment that got your panties into a twist.

A quick lesson for y'all:

If you want to interpret "by and for young feminists," I will posit two things: "by" should be construed in the same way as "for," (standard rules of statutory construction) and the young feminists who write this site are all between 24 and 30, if I'm not mistaken. If they are the "by" part of "young feminists," then "young feminists" is meant to be in that age range.

So before you pedantic people get all worked up, consider what I said. It was REASONABLE - i.e. rational and based on reason.

(eye roll to the ridiculous hyper-sensitivity)

Seriously, getting offended at "ageism" does make you sound immature.

I'm young (22) and have enjoyed the conversation of people in their 30s and 40s more than my peers since about 13. Even when I WAS 13 teenagers annoyed me and they still do

There are young women and men who are mature, and that's fine. But they (and you) are not the norm, so don't feel personally attacked

alien_she: I think you are kind of missing the point. I too am young (15) and the real thing that should be talked about on here is the fact that these sad, strange immature people feel the need to come into a forum that discusses Adult topics.

Now onto the real topic:
I pesonally love this graffitti (?) Though I do agree that it could be taken the wrong way, I guess that it really depends on how you read it. Another thing: Did anyone read the comment on the ubernet site, reading: "take off your birkenstocks, shave your pits and make me a sammich?"
I feel like going over there and shoving my birkenstock clad foot up where the sun doesent shine, and telling him to make his OWN DAMN SANDWICH.

Oenophile, you’re not getting the big picture at all. Your logic exercise regarding “by and for� is in fact wrong but that’s not even the point.

My point, in a broad sense, was that your entire approach to posting was pretty far from constructive, and since it was factually incorrect, and you falsely spoke with the voice of authority, all the more inappropriate. You ordained yourself spokesperson for this site, defining who it is for, which you have no standing to do, and which might be misleading to someone reading for the first time.

You approach your comments like they are some verbal “Art of War� where anybody you perceive to be a limping zebra should be quickly thinned from the herd. Ooooh, somebody overreacted, let me go tell her that this site isn’t for her and she should consider leaving.

Maybe she overreacted, maybe she didn’t, but there are two ways to respond and I think you chose the least pleasant of those two ways. And yes, if you’re responding to a younger person I think its best to err on the side of constructive commenting if you are unsettled by what they said. Who are you to try and run people off? I’ve seen truly hypersensitive comments by people who are probably a bit older than alien_she, but rarely to I see them pounced on. It’s almost as if, because she stated her age, you saw your angle of attack and got down to business.

You may quickly dismiss alien_she’s concern of ageism, but I think it’s close-minded to dismiss someone’s “-ism� concern when you don’t stand in their shoes. Jen posted a very good “Weekly Hungover…� post this week, about not having to think you’re racist to say racist things. I don’t equate the severity of our chronic national problem of racism with that of ageism, but one theme I took from the piece was that you may think you’re mind is in the right place, but you could be very wrong, especially regarding an “-ism� that doesn’t affect you personally. Closing your mind to someone else’s concern isn’t going to help, and going out of your way to belittle them is counterproductive.

ccall, you rock.

yes yes ccall, you said it. and even though you said it brilliantly and calmly, i'd also like to add a couple of my cents.
while reasonable--as in based on reason, oenophile, your claim isn't necessarily fair. i think the issue here is immaturity, and if we are to assume that "by and for young feminists" means "by and for people falling into the same age range as the women who post here," that's being pretty narrow. i think we all read and respond to things by folks outside of our age range all the time. (here and elsewhere.) and that's ok.
and to say "eye roll to the ridiculous hyper-sensitivity" comes off as pretty dang privileged, and i need not get even more redundant by quoting ccall from above.

there was a call on a different thread (i forget the commenter, sorry) to be gentler in this community because people new to feminism might take offense and/or get the wrong idea. i think that's a misguided idea, as this is not really a space to teach feminism 101, generally. but i think the idea of drawing brackets around who this site is and is not for, especially in terms of age, which in a lot of ways is arbitrary in terms of voice and maturity, is silly.

of course the immaturity comments were NOT targeted at younger folks in general. and i believe i myself asked 'ivy' if he was a high school freshman.
but it takes some guts to speak up to this crowd to say: you are making me feel bad and i don't think you meant to.
so thank you, alien_she.

it can be tricky to be a high school feminist, as many of us probably remember. or can imagine. nothing good comes of making this site a tough place to be one too.

to me this message could either mean that we should be using more as in sexually.... or it could mean that we should be "saving" it instead of "wasting it"...

either way i dislike it because i don't like being told what i SHOULD be doing with my own body whether it is being more sexual or less so. my body; my choice. the use of the word "waste" is almost manipulating the reader to feel guilt if they dont follow the advice... :-/

I feel strongly compelled to jump in an speak up against the ageism in response to alien_she. I figure if she's as eloquent and mature as she seems, she doesn't really need me to defend her, but I don't understand the rudeness and dismissiveness that was unleashed against her and against teenagers at large.

The fact really is, if this site is "by and for young feminists," and alien_she considers herself a feminist, then at 14, she is, by definition, a "young feminist." Not only that, but considering that few people of her age become involved with feminism at all, should we not be encouraging and welcoming to her and to ANYONE who wants to contribute positively and LEARN from this site. As far as I can tell, the main thing that alien_she has learned from this discussion, is that even people who consider themselves feminists can be totally prejudiced against another group of people.

I love reading this site, but I see a lot of behaviour here that is exclusionary and downright mean, which is really sad. When people feel forced out of the discussion, no true discussion can really take place.

By the way, I fall into oenophile's narrowly-defined category of who this site is for. I firmly believe that if the discussion is limited to women of only this age group, then we are going to be seriously missing out on other important generational perspectives.

i don't know if anyone is still following the thread, but i apologize that my comment about children being seen and not heard caused undue pain here. i should have been explicit that i meant emotional age and not the literal 'people under a certain age'.

honestly i was thinking that our trolls were guys with the emotional age of 11; not commenting on the range of feminists that follow this site. i'm 44 and i've LEARNED a lot from the 'young' feminists here. i apologize to you. i don't mean to insult my teachers.

i also appreciate the thread of 'you don't have to be racist to say something racist'. i do wish to suggest one thing - regardless of age, one can't fight each and every battle. maybe it's not always best to fight each other HERE constantly when there are bigger fights to be had elsewhere for bigger stakes.
nadine/bailey_comus

Thanks to those who defended me in my absence, and I'm sorry to those of you who felt I was overreacting and wasting your time. I didn't mean to start up a whole discussion, but it really bothers me that I can understand what's going on here just as well as you can, but you can still use your age to your advantage.

"I think you are kind of missing the point. I too am young (15) and the real thing that should be talked about on here is the fact that these sad, strange immature people feel the need to come into a forum that discusses Adult topics."

Who decided that these are adult topics? Feminism certainly affects teenage girls, and I think girls should be talking about it. Who suffers from eating disorders? Who gets raped? Who is taught that you need to be "beautiful" or you won't get a boyfriend, which is all you're good for anyway? I think it's great that we have feminists of all ages on this site because we can all offer a different perspective. When you tell me that most teenagers are immature and apathetic, I don't feel exceptional or special for being a feminist, and it doesn't make the ageist comments okay in my eyes. I don't see how wanting some respect makes me immature. And sorry if this comment was a bit choppy, but I'm in a rush. :)

alien_she, I don't think anybody is dismissive of issues affecting young women. I would even say that a lot of what we talk about it very much about youth.

Did you read bailey_comus's comment?

"honestly i was thinking that our trolls were guys with the emotional age of 11; not commenting on the range of feminists that follow this site. i'm 44 and i've LEARNED a lot from the 'young' feminists here. i apologize to you. i don't mean to insult my teachers."

I think that about covers it

simone notes:"I love reading this site, but I see a lot of behaviour here that is exclusionary and downright mean, which is really sad. When people feel forced out of the discussion, no true discussion can really take place."
and I concur.