Okay, I'm gonna make a potentially horrifically embarrassing confession here, but it's something that still haunts me almost a decade after it happened, and I think it illustrates perfectly just why we white people need to think every bit as long and hard about our privilege, as we women expect men to think about theirs.

When I was about 15ish (brash youngster raised in a sheltered home!!) I was in a PE class that was mostly white (just like my hometown was/is mostly white). There were a couple kids of color in the class, I can't remember exactly how many, but I do remember that there was one kid who was half-white, half-Asian. This incident occurred right around the time the Rodney King scandal was a big deal, so it was an easy cultural reference. Anyway, we were playing some rough-housing PE-type game, I can't remember what, and it ended up with the half-Asian kid and a white kid playfully beating up on another kid in the class. Just, not-troubling, normal rough-housing goofy kid stuff. I decided that would be a great time to make a joke so I proclaimed "it's the beating of Rodney King by two white policemen!" The half-Asian kid looked at me and furrowed his brow and said "I'm not white."

Which was like, duh. I immediately felt mortified. Like, what, did I think he'd take it as a compliment? Like there was something inherently wrong about acknowledging racial diversity? Like there was something shameful about him not being white?

I think this is exactly the sort of thing we ("we"=people who acknowledge the existence of white privilege) mean when we talk about "white privilege." It's this general discomfort with race. It's this idea that we should just be able to ignore race, like it doesn't exist. It's this fantasy world where racism doesn't exist, and we can all pretend we live in harmony and we don't have to acknowledge the invisible privileges that white people have.

As a white person, I'll never, completely, one hundred percent understand what it is like to be a person of color. But with a little bit of an open mind, I can take a step back, and I can ACCEPT the constructive criticism of my white blindness, and I can try to become a little less blind each day. As a white person, as a person raised in a racist society, I AM A RACIST. This doesn't mean I'm a bad person. This doesn't mean I'm a Klan member. This doesn't mean I can't work for a better future. This doesn't mean I hate people of color. It means that there is a problem, that I am part of the problem UNLESS AND UNTIL I become part of the solution, and that the impetus is on ME to start making that change.

I can either accept this or I can reject it because it's too hard and too uncomfortable and it requires me to acknowledge that, yeah, sometimes the shit I say IS racist and bad, and I need to OWN this, and I need to try to do better next time. I'm gonna try to accept it, and I'm gonna try to stop being part of the problem. I'm not there yet, but I'm trying, and I hope the other white feminists here are willing to try too.

(And I apologize for making this about me, because it isn't.)

"First, my back hurts."

I hope you get well soon!

I think that Samhita's post was a little clunky, and the example about the guy in the bandanna was a poor one (as that she knew nothing about him but instead assumed he was purposely wearing a red bandana to be ghetto) and the language about violence is a matter of some debate.

But what amazes me is how the lacking points of her post are just being jumped on by white people so desperate to insist that they are not privledged and should be able to do whatever the fuck they want and who are these damn POC making them look bad anyway. It wasn't the strongest post in the world, but commenters like Jane Minty and the frog queen are deliberately ignoring the wider point in order to jump all over details, and ignore that their own defensiveness pretty much proves the existance of white privledge. It baffles me.

And I know this is unsolicited, but I would propose that comments which deny the existance of white privledge, or claim that they are exempt from it because they are poor, LGBT, un-feminine, liberal, punk, Canadian, male, "logical", etc be ripe for removal. At the very least, commenters on a feminist blog should be aquainted with white privledge and we shouldn't have to be fighting over such feminism 101 bullshit. Just a thought for your comment review policy.

I didn't post on Samhita's discussion of hipster ccopting of hip-hop and "street" culture because I was afraid to say something terribly racist.

Whenever I try to participate in a conversation that criticizes or references reference racially charged symbols, the layers of privilege overlap until I can't tell what I am seeing on the same level as someone else. I am white, I grew up in a community with lots of people of color, I was a racial minority in my public school, my family was relatively well-off in comparison to the many people who lived below the poverty line in my community but we weren't even upper-middle class, but now I have an incredibly privileged job and a lot of education, where I work among mostly white and rich people and live in a neighborhood that is somewhat ethnically diverse but nobody really talks to each other and I've overheard several racist remarks from POC about other POC--I think my husband and I are the only white people on the block. Not that that's surprising--white people have privilege but they don't have a monopoly on bigotry. Like Law Fairy I don't mean to make this about me but it's hard to speak about these issues without first identifying where I'm coming from. Not only to say "hey, I grew up with kids from the barrio so I can talk about this" (though I won't lie, that's part of it, and I also won't lie and tell you that *I* lived in the 'hood), but because I need to admit my privileges to myself before I open my mouth.

For the record, my least favorite hipsters in law school (the main place I've encountered this cultural phemomenon) were economically and educationally privileged people of color. I probably held them to a higher standard because they were not white. I definitely feel I have more of a right to participate in (NOT mock or imitate!) rap, hip hop, and specifically chicano culture than they did, since that's what my friends and I were into growing up. I can't tell if that's right or wrong or, more likely, erroneously assuming that one kind of privilege is more forgivable than another.

I appreciate the voices of every woman who writes for Feministing, whether I agree with you on a particular issue or not. And I appreciate the chance to talk about acceptable ways to discuss race and culture in a feminist forum.

"I can either accept this or I can reject it because it's too hard and too uncomfortable and it requires me to acknowledge that, yeah, sometimes the shit I say IS racist and bad, and I need to OWN this, and I need to try to do better next time."

It can be even less comfortable for people who lack enough social skills but still aren't anti-social.

The vicious circle goes kinda like "I want to be their friend but I'm nervous and I can't figure out the right things to say to them fast enough and oh no what if I say the wrong things to them and [insert name here] thinks I'm racist against [her or him] instead of pathetic to everyone and now I'm even MORE nervous and LESS able to come up with the right things to say to them fast enough and...!!!"

That's why when I read the book _It's the Little Things_ by Lena Williams, I read it as a practical etiquette guide because I want to be less of a hopeless dork.

I am a white guy and I don't think of myself as deserving of more than non-white people, but I probably do on some unconscious level think of myself as "normal." This association between my race and my sense of what's normal definitely comes out sometimes as racism. I don't think racism always means prejudice. The word can refer to a kind of blindness, an assumption that what is normal to me is normal to others. That, in my opinion, is what "white privilege" is. It is analogous in some sense, with the whole concept of the "heteronormative." As a gay man I am constantly aware that the language and culture in this country assume "straightness" and define non-straights from the outset as "non-normal," and thus less deserving of the rights of citizens. Straight guys don't have to be gay-bashers to benefit from systemic homophobia. Same with whiteness. White people don't have to be bigots to benefit from systemic and racist notions of white privilege.

Thank you, Jen, for this post. Thank you for your thoughts as well, LF. They were both great and definitely needed to be said.

What I am really struggling with here is the differentiation between comments that are racist, or comments that are “positively drowning in privilege� – as if those two things are the same. I would think that the former is much worse than the latter. In this context, I am using the term racist to refer to a false epistemic standard, which utilizes the race of the person/subject/object as a substitute or standard for an epistemic judgment of a person/subject/object’s actual actions or statements. In this case, there are two errors, harms or issues. First, the person being judged has been falsely “pidgeon-holed� or judged by an incorrect standard. Second, the person making the judgment or statement has deluded his or herself and is using an incorrect epistemology that does not correctly correlate to the person being discussed or judged.

In cases of the latter statements “positively drowning in privilege�, such statements do not necessarily use race as a standard, and while coming from a privileged point of view, may be valid statements made by correct epistemic standards. One cannot simply dismiss a statement from a privileged position as inaccurate or made under false epistemic circumstances.

Also, what disturbs me is the implicit equating of culture and race. They are simply not the same. A culture clash is when a southerner calls me a yankee. It has nothing to do with race, it is a disagreement between representatives of two cultures. While cultures may have racial elements, they are not one and the same.

While it may seem inappropriate to some, I have no problem with a little cultural imperialism or colonialism. I also have no problems analyzing cultures and determining that some are superior to others. I also have no problem with cultures accumulating bits and pieces from other cultures and incorporating those elements into its worldview. Historically this happens all the time. Greek culture was superior to Persian culture, but Hellenism borrowed certain elements of Persian culture beneficial to that culture. This is but one example, but it happens all the time. Cultures cannot be put into a vacuum never to interact; they interact, borrow and change all the time. A specific culture cannot be claimed by one race to the exclusion of all others.

Purdueattorney: What makes one culture "superior" to another?

Jen:

Thanks so much for this post! I hope you feel better!

I hope you feel better, too, Jen. And thank you for this post. I agree totally with the law fairy.

But IMO the following ethnocentric statement is a good start in a comprehensive definition of racism:

"I have no problem with a little cultural imperialism or colonialism. I also have no problems analyzing cultures and determining that some are superior to others."

Jen said:
Can we agree that equating "punk" with race is at best a weak comparison, and accept that people of color could be insulted?

But punk and race were not being equated, I think. 'punk' and 'gang' were actually the fashions being equated. Just like not all whites are punk, not all blacks are gangsters. So, appropriated a handkerchief is not really appropriating the culture of all black people, just a small subset of them.

Wasn't the whole discourse of "white privilege" and "whiteness" developed precisely to address the question of privilege vs. racism? That even those whites who do not deliberately engage in racist practices still benefit from certain privileges because of their skin color? And that this privileged position is the reason why *appropriating* as opposed to borrowing cultural symbols only goes in one direction?

Great post, Jen, and great comment, winer.

Thank you for this post, Jen. Many of the responses to Samhita's post were really, really awful. I appreciate the strength of your response.

I've been doing a little Undoing -Isms exercize by myself for a little over a year now, and I've encouraged people in some social justice groups I work with to do the same, so I'll share it here. I think it's really important for everyone to recognize that they have a combination of privileges and prejudices, and the only way to overcome them is by identifying them and seeing when those habits come up. Our society is so full of stereotypes and different oppressions that everyone has internalized a lot, and those stereotypes will seep into your everyday conversations & interactions unless you know what they are and why they're baseless or wrong. For example I know that I have internalized a lot of racism, sexism, and homophobia despite being black, female, and queer--internalization like this can lead to a lot of self hatred and be really destructive to other people as well.

So, the exercize is that when I see someone walking down the street or meet someone for the first time, I analyze my first thought or impression. There's the saying about first impressions lasting, and I don't want those to be based on internalized racism/sexism/etc. I know I am not the only one who can think really judgemental things about people I don't even know. So when I walk down the street and think, "I bet that _____ (ethnic/sexual/etc. description) guy is really _____ (stereotype or characterization)", or "I bet I wouldn't like this ____ (description) woman because she's _____ (stereotype)" I don't let myself forget it until I figure out where the judgement came from. That could mean it's in the back of my mind all day long, or that I ask a close friend what they think of it. But the answer's usually easy: I have internalized so much, and a lot of those hateful -isms are pointed right at me!

It was a really uncomfortable exercize at first, and sometimes it still is, but like TheLawFairy said above, I have taken in a lot of racial hatred, and I can't effectively work against racism until I can understand my place in it. I think it's something everyone who's been involved in this discussion should try, because you learn so much about the way these messages of hate seep into your thinking and just how powerful they are.

Also:
While it may seem inappropriate to some, I have no problem with a little cultural imperialism or colonialism. I also have no problems analyzing cultures and determining that some are superior to others.

But the people on the other end probably do have a problem with it.

Thank you Samhita and Jen.

First, like LawFairy and hockifyoulike, I am working on my own privilege and still find myself saying things(although I don't mean what people take it as, but thats also a poor excuse for what comes outta my mouth), or making first impressions that show my privelge. Everyday I learn more about myself, and I have come to realize (well a few years ago) that I am responsible for my privilege and the control I let it have in my life. Although I think LawFairy said what I wanted to say much better.

As far as equating punk to gangster, it is more then just culture. Like Jen was saying becuase she doesn't fit that gangster stereotype people are surprised or at least joke about it. No one tells me that I don't look the least bit punk. But I am also not an expert on punk culture and how it came about, only bits and pieces.

Thanks again to all of the writers for keeping this blog more then just about gender, becuase I think feminism really tries to answer more social justice questions then just gender.

Jen, I heart you. And vicodin suits you. Feel better dearie.

Sure, I'll bite in response to my quotes.

How about focusing on true injustices here? This is crazy.

Your decision about what is true injustice is different from mine. Why is yours right and mine is crazy?

I'm NOT going to get worked up over some ridiculous hipster and his attire. I'm just not. There are horrible things taking place on a daily basis, and this isn't one of them. Focusing on bad fashion choices (to me anyways) almost crates a "squeaky wheel" atmosphere.

You guys do great work here, but I really think you could use some work in converting others to the cause. I've mentioned this in the past, but there are some middle-of-the-road people who have told me in the they they're interested in feminism, but are freaked out by some of the radical views. Telling men they are, by default, "privileged" won't win such converts; they're most likely going to find such sentiments insulting. In addition, this label implies there's just no hope, and we can all give up.

Let's just say an average guy - maybe a recent Veteran who has seen some traumatizing shit in recent months - stumbled upon this blog. Do you really think he's going to read beyond someone venting about "proper" attire, and getting passionately upset about the dos and don'ts of red bandana wear? Hell no. Do you want to avoid seeing photos of a bunch of white guys in suits signing anti-abortion bills? You have to begin at the bottom.

Maybe I'm wrong about the objective of this blog after all...it's feeling a bit like jr high school in that everyone has to agree with ONE opinion or be designated The Outcast.

Stench of white privilege? Can you cite examples? I'm not trying to be a smartass, but what are we supposed to say and how do we act to keep peace in a community? I think it's safe to assume all of us here are enlightened enough to respect and explore diversity...it just has to go both ways.

What's funny about this comment is it's textbook white privilege. You can assume whatever you want, but it's clear that our idea of what constitutes respecting and exploring diversity are different. You can't always have "peace in a community" when the community has some learning to do.

How exactly are my ideas of respecting exploring diversity different from yours? Why do you assume they are different? You took my quote out of context in that I (along with others) were reacting to an insult. If you reread every post sharing my view, none of us were at all uncivil to anyone, but it certainly went the other way around. I merely wanted a clarification.

And I'm getting really tired of the word, "privilege." Is it so wrong to be insulted when someone tells you that, no matter WHAT you do, you still have this negative sign affixed to your forehead? Again with the context...when you've endured the most tragic 6 months of your life, and some crazy lady on the Internets insults and points a finger at you saying, "(insert label here) privilege," in response to my indifference on how people wear red bandanas, you bet I'm not going to react in a very positive manner. "White, or Male Privilege" contradicts the fact that I don't judge people on race or gender. I'm not going to apply a predetermined stamp to anyone, PERIOD. It's not only inconsiderate, but dangerous.

applying the term "racist" to the average feminist is going to affect us more than someone like Ann Coulter, and we will take it personally. it goes against who we are and strive to be. please keep this in mind, moving forward; we're not as evil as you think.

Reading racist statements on a feminist blog that I contribute to affects me more than something Ann Coulter says. I take it personally. Being challenged on bullshit is what helps us become who we strive to be. Please keep this in mind, moving forward.

Wow, you COMPLETELY missed my point. The average person who shares the same philosophy with most posts here has most likely lived her life in a socially conscious manner. We may not all be vegetarians, personally able to get an abortion, in favor of gun control, etc. but I dare say we've made positive contributions to society, and actively strive to be good people. Therefore, when someone accuses us of being "racist," it stings. If a feminist accused someone like Coulter of racism? She couldn't give two shits.

Now, what exactly in my posts constitutes racism? That is a serious, serious charge, and I don't take it lightly. You certainly don't have enough information about who I am to make such an assumption.

I am getting sleepy(yes I know it's only 8:30 on the west coast) and I pray that my long winded tendencies don't mix with that to make this incoherent or condescending or self righteous.

What I want to articulate before losing consciousness is that I can't for the life of me see how what really goes on in an institutionally racist country and culture like this one is going to "move forward" when/if people lose their motherfucking minds over other people thinking they're racist or calling them racist or calling what they said or did racist. Case in point of why I think it is a hopeless and overblown thing to get hung up on:

Joan Kelly -

white - check

real world privilege (not an abstract word batted around) - check

raised in a segregated place - check

permeated by some kinds of racist ideas and behaviors even though parents insisted racism is wrong and harmful - check

anything bad happening to her because of those facts, or because of not defending against the spread of those facts amongst her fellows? - uh, no.

What I wish were widely known is that nobody actually comes out of the woodwork and yells "aha motherfucker, no more friends/social acceptance/approval for you!" when you're a white person who saves her energy for things besides the issue of Wheter Or Not I Am A Racist. I say this not as an excuse for it but just as what I think is fact - racism is contagious, and I don't know anybody who comes into this life hoping to catch it. Nor do I know anybody who could live in this time and place, United States 2007, let alone any years prior, who has the magic powers to resist being influenced by something that is in everything, all the time, and has been since the beginning of this country's inception.

If those things are true - if it came before me, if it's everywhere both subtle and overt, if all people are influenced by the soil their seeds grow in - how the fuck could I not be racist? Not: help, how do I stop being racist, but - how could I possibly be the one person who escaped the way human nature works and the way this culture works on people?

And forgive my referencing a movie not everyone may have seen or heard of, but there's a scene in Hedwig and the Angry Inch where Hedwig's lover is touching him and for the first time encounters his "angry inch," the result of a botched supposed male-to-female sex change operation. His lover freaks out and says words to the effect of "what the fuck?!" Hedwig's calm answer: "It's what I have to work with."

I feel like that sums up my relationship to whatever shapes racism may still take in my brain/heart/wherever. And I say that in the hopes of cheering up some people, not preaching - it's possible to hear someone out about racism and problems thereof without translating it directly to "You are the next grand dragon of the KKK."

I don't know what can come of it, though, when behaving like any direct comment about racism and where you may cross paths with it is like being jabbed with a curling iron. I think people are earnest about not wanting to "be racist". I'm just suggesting that maybe letting that particular debate go could free up some time and whatnot...

Purdueattorney: What makes one culture "superior" to another?

Heh, I have nothing to lose at this point...so Malaika924, what do you think about cultures that encourage female circumcision, stoning for adultery, forced burka wearing, etc.?

I might as well be all inclusive: what about sexist religions? What takes precedence, time-honored tradition, or modern feminism? What's the hierarchy?

And I just saw the part in Jen's post about being insulted when FOC joke about her whiteness. Um, this has happened to me as well, but I just don't find this offensive when coming from my (of color) friends, even if I'm the butt (or lack thereof) of the joke. I can't dance? You say you can land a 747 on my ass? Laughing about differences is often the ultimate bonding material.

I appreciate this post because it never even occured to me. I am white and this is priveledge and blindness to issues I personally have not been confronted with. Thank you for making me think about this. I am not up on current in fashions and I actually am a little confused on some points. I am not trying undermine any of the excellent points made, only get clarification. What exactly is the offending bandana style? Is it just the red bandana? What about other colors? Is it only if it's worn in a certain style?

...what do you think about cultures that encourage female circumcision, stoning for adultery, forced burka wearing, etc.?

Oh give me a fucking break. We're so superior, right? Because we call it "designer vaginas" instead of FGM and "domestic violence" instead of stoning? Jane, if you plan to make some sort of U.S.-as-superior argument, you best not do it here.

Jane Minty, I do not have the energy to address your first post in this thread. Hopefully someone else will do it justice.

But I would like to point out that "time honored tradition" and "modern feminism" are not cultures. And "sexist religions" is pretty much redundant.

Ms. Minty,

I hope you will read and consider what I have to say. I'm not responding to the question about whether you're saying racist things, but to the claim that having benefits as a result of being white makes it hard to see where people of color are coming from.

You wrote:

"Is it so wrong to be insulted when someone tells you that, no matter WHAT you do, you still have this negative sign affixed to your forehead?"

I think it might be worth the time it takes to consider how that negative sign affects *you*. Does it a) prevent you from getting a job; b) prevent you from getting a mortgage; c) prevent you from getting the same raises as your co-workers; d) etc.?

Probably not.

We've benefited from a system that exploits other people, both in our own lifetimes, and in previous ones, and often in ways it's hard for us to recognize. (We got that job because we were the most qualified of the people they interviewed, right? What about the people that weren't even considered for the position?)

Feeling personally insulted because someone questioned whether you were adequately considering the views of people with other colors of skin -- this fails to take into account what people of color have to lose, in comparison to what *we* have at stake.

I think this is what people mean when they talk about white privilege.

Is it so bad if POC want to keep *at least* their identities free from the exploitation of a system that's already exploited them more than we care to admit?

(Also: thinking that it's anything other than a kindness to be gently reminded of the ways we go wrong? Probably also WP (I whisper it to spare your ears.))

Saying that we have WP doesn't mean we're not trying. It just means that if we want to make things better for other people, we have to try harder, and to listen harder.

--a well-meaning white person

Jane, if you plan to make some sort of U.S.-as-superior argument, you best not do it here.

Who said anything about the U.S.? There are plenty of countries that don't engage in these practices. By "encouraging" female circumcision, I mean, "force."

Holy fucking shit, I do have enough of a reputable track record on this forum to not warrant the bandwagon (though one friend who will remain unnamed was also the subject of an article here within the past few months and also subsequently trashed, so I guess nothing surprises me). I was under the assumption these are bad, bad things. yes, they happen. yes, they are also the results of certain cultures. if you can say that every aspect of every culture is positive, I just wouldn't know what to think about that.

Truth be told, it was more of a reaction to Malaika's badering of everyone, which no one seems to be allowed to address.

If you guys want exactly one set of viewpoints here, that's cool. Lord knows there are other progressive sites to spend time... I may or may not come across one way here, but maybe it's time for everyone (not just myself) to do a little more thinking and a little less reprimanding.

Ok, I have to say, I really liked this post, I think it clarified Samhita's post. But I think it was really immature to post specific people's usernames. It puts them on the defensive & it makes things into a kind of witch hunt. Seriously. Not cool.
& btw, I don't agree with what they said. I just think it's really alienating. There's a difference between addressing them within the comments section & calling them out in a separate post. You don't do that to other people who say things that you disagree with--I've never seen a post about anything oenephile's said.

I read through most of the comments on the other post, and all of the ones here, and unless I missed it, I can't believe no one has mentioned Avenue Q's song, "We're All a Little Bit Racist!"
Excellent song.
Main point - admitting to our inherent racism is the first step towards living peaceably with one another.

LoL keric, love Avenue Q.

I think it might be worth the time it takes to consider how that negative sign affects *you*. Does it a) prevent you from getting a job; b) prevent you from getting a mortgage; c) prevent you from getting the same raises as your co-workers; d) etc.?

I do know from personal experience there are plenty of reasons why I didn't get the job/raises.There are other instances in which a person of color got the job, raise, or promotion over me. I didn't think, "affirmative action," but knew full well it was a result of who was a better fit for the job, or based on performance.

I worked with a POC lady a few years ago, who was several years younger than I am. It was important to her to make it in the company, and I just didn't give a shit (major publishing company, abusive boss). We were treated horribly, equally. The coworker pretended not to notice...later on, she was given the task of terminating me. She was terrified, and I told her not to worry, but be very, very cautious of that other woman because she would screw her over in a second. I was shocked to read she'd been murdered last year, and couldn't stop thinking about how someone in her position had endured abuse for the sake of working her way up in the company. maybe she was accustomed to it? is this how to begin addressing what might be a racial injustice - not taking abuse? not sure about this one.

The focus of this argument is that some people were PERSONALLY attacked for expressing views contrary to the bandana post, and then simply deemed ignorant/racist. If I didn't fucking care, I wouldn't have continued posting.

Again I'd like to stress that when exposed to extreme personal hardships, it's really easy to get touchy about strangers claiming you have a "privilege." no one has addressed this.

Just because I disagree with bandana usage and certain gentrification issues doesn't make me racist. I didn't attack anyone, and expect not to be singled out in return. I have only my personal experiences, and fully expect not to be subjected to false accusations.

Good night.

I'm still making my way through the comments on the original post, so I may be a little ignorant on how it's progressed so far, and this might have been said already. The problem I'm having is it seems like there has been a conflation of race and culture. Regarding the white guy wearing the bandanna--and who knows why he was wearing it, but let's assume for the sake of argument that he was trying to take on a hip-hop style--is that necessarily cultural appropriation? Can't white people be involved in hip-hop? In my town, I see a lot of stratification among racial and especially class lines, and often times it's the case that white people and people of color share a common culture of dress and behavior. I think that the bandanna example was a poor one, because of the lack of information about this man, and it was detrimental to the overarching argument about cultural appropriation.
It would be interesting to know if the comments would have been different had that been left out and people didn't have that to fixate on.

It was a great post, Jen, and I hope you feel better soon. I love that we see you posting more these days. Hopefully, you’ll do some pop culture posts for us again sometime? (I believe that was you, but I have a faulty memory.)

I didn’t comment on Samhita’s post at first, because even though I am a WOC, I still come from privilege – class privilege. I’ve never lived in an area that wasn’t at least comfortably middle-class and in one of the safest parts of town, even when my family was pretty poor. By the time I came back and had thought of something to contribute, the thread had over 100 posts and had denigrated. So I’m going to post here.

A lot of people have posted about how it’s ridiculous that white people, and specifically affluent ones, are not be able to wear whatever they want, but I don’t think that’s the issue at all. I think the issue is that they are able to wear whatever they want. Let me clarify.

Being a POC, especially one living in a poor neighbourhood, is a burden in our society. Such people are constantly being gauged, by their speech, their actions, and their dress. For the most part, if they want to advance in our society, they have to abandon such indicators of their race and class. So the young white man in Samhita’s example can wear his red bandana, and he could even be in a gang, but if a potential employer spotted him with it, he very likely would not face the same repercussions as if a young black male were wearing the same thing, even if our hypothetical black man is not in a gang. A lot of people will simply assume that he’s involved in some sort of illegal activity.

I had a similar discussion with my brother the other day. These days, I often see young people, who I know are financially well-off, wearing clothing that looks old and worn out. It’s basically dressing to look like they are poor. But in my experience, people who actually ARE poor try their hardest to look like they aren’t, because being poor is a barrier to success, and beyond that, actually embarrassing. The young people I know that can adopt that appearance, though, aren’t poor, and don’t have to deal with the daily financial and social realities of being poor, nor do they have to deal with its repercussions.

I think that is the big problem here. The race privilege of being white, combined with the class privilege of being rich, allows certain people to adopt traits and cultural icons borne out of oppression and a lack of privilege, and to wear them without fear of it taking a toll on their standing in the world. Because it doesn’t matter if they dress in “ghetto� clothing from head to toe, or look like they shop exclusively at thrift stores – they are still rich and white, and that privilege allows them to get away with behaviours that poor people of colour have to avoid if they would like to succeed in our racist and classist society.

And that makes poor POC feel like their lives are a joke. No one likes being treated like a joke.

Question: If I am member of the "privileged" class, does that mean I can not/should not criticize those that are not a member of the "privileged" class?

That being said, this quote:
"To move into a community, uninformed, taking from it, not giving back and flaunting your expensive Ipod and "ghetto chic" accessories, is a form of violence"
really grabbed me. It put into words something I've felt for a while as someone who 1) travels and would like to travel more and 2) a non-middle eastern woman who studies middle eastern dance. I don't want to be someone who takes and doesn't give back, and the hard part is knowing how to give back to a community you don't fully understand because you aren't truly a part of it. Which I guess is where the taking time to be thoughtful about what you're doing and educating yourself about the culture comes in, and hopefully that's doing something positive.

"The race privilege of being white, combined with the class privilege of being rich, allows certain people to adopt traits and cultural icons borne out of oppression and a lack of privilege, and to wear them without fear of it taking a toll on their standing in the world."

I think that was very well said and a good point.

Jane, while I can understand where you're coming from -- as I mentioned in response to Samhita's post, my initial gut reaction was to feel a little irritated/pissed off at first -- I don't think that it can be stressed enough that these posts ARE NOT ABOUT YOU AND ME. They aren't ABOUT white people. Just like when one of the Feministing ladies posts about how Random Asshole Male #7 Billion pissed her off, it's Not About Men. I've seen enough of your posts on Feministing to know you're not a bad or ill-intentioned person. I know you're a legitimate, thoughtful feminist. And I'm really, really sorry to hear you've had such a shitty six months. Shitty life stuff can fuck with the smartest of our brains.

I just think it's important to remember that, as honest and coherent feminists, we need to acknowledge minority voices. As Feministing is a feminist blog, this usually means OUR voices. And this is absolutely legitimate. But sometimes it doesn't mean our voices. Sometimes it means the voices of people of color. And if we won't listen to them... how on earth can we expect the rest of the world to listen to us?

I don't think anyone here is saying that Samhita's post was PERFECT (or, hell, that ANYONE on Feministing has consistently perfect, flawless posts). But if we can't acknowledge the legitimacy of her feelings without feeling threatened... where does this leave us as feminists? I really don't think Samhita or Jen think of white people as inherently evil -- if they did, why do they work with Jessica and Vanessa and Ann? Isn't it possible that, maybe, they're just identifying frustrating examples of white privilege? And isn't it just as legitimate for them to get worked up about it, as it is for us to get worked up random asshole men who slide their hands up our thighs for having the audacity to wear a skirt to a club?

I mean -- imagine if Roy or Tom Head reacted this way when someone wrote a post like that. Imagine how much it would irritate us, and how quickly we'd call them MRA trolls. Don't Samhita and Jen deserve the same consideration and the same wiggle room we give ourselves?

I thought prairielily just laid it out very nicely.

I'm white, myself, but I am also "disabled" (your definition, never mine).

All I have to do to put these arguments in context is substitute "hearing" for "white" and "deaf" for "black" and the arguments suddenly make absolute perfect sense.

I should think the same thing could be done substituting men and women for white and black. It's fascinating to me. Perhaps for people who have only one axis of oppression instead of two or more fail to be aware in the ways these things intersect and layer on each other such that in some contexts they're the oppressed while at the very same time in other contexts they're the oppressors.

We are in this country much too inclined to polarizing, one or the other, oblivious to the shades of gray and ambiguity all around us...

One of the things that disturbs me most is that some people seem to think it is much worse to be _called_ a racist than to _do/say_ something racist.

When people are called on their crap, the standard response seems to be "you are attacking me/you are insulting me" instead of an actual reflection on why people are perceiving these comments to be racist.

Even though I'd like to think I'm all progressive and stuff, I've been called on my crap. I made a comment to my best friend a few years ago that I never intended to be racist, but was, and I was called on it. I felt awful. Truly awful. And I apologized (and not the fake "I'm sorry that you felt that way" apology). But more importantly, I agonized (and still do) over the fact that I have some thought/thought process in my brain that would prompt me to say something like that.

This leads me to conclude that I am not perfect and can use all the guidance that I can get, and if I felt awful for making such a comment, I can't even imagine how awful it was to receive such a comment.

Oh give me a fucking break. We're so superior, right? Because we call it "designer vaginas" instead of FGM and "domestic violence" instead of stoning? Jane, if you plan to make some sort of U.S.-as-superior argument, you best not do it here.

Y'know, people often think I criticize the US too much, but as a matter of fact there is a difference between forcing young girls to get circumcised and designer vaginas. A refusal to make the distinction is, frankly, pretty damning, and not to the US. It also hugely belittles what women in countries with forced female circumcision go through.

As for "racism", just because someone says another person is racist doesn't make it so. If someone accuses you of racism, listen to the argument and decide for yourself whether you agree. If you do, apologize and change your behaviour. If you don't, don't.

I have to say I find it really amusing when people who say the focus should be on "more important things"/"shouldn't we be devoting attention to all the bad things in the world" don't see the racism/privilege inherent in these statements. Cultural cooptation may seem innocuous to these folks, but the ancient, ongoing sordid pattern of this habit is the infrastructure of so many of the "bad things" in the world. Often times these same critics will underscore their dismissive and contemptuous responses by saying they want to talk about "concrete solutions to real problems." Of course the tragedy is that this arrogant inability and unwillingness to examine the evils of racial and cultural privilege precludes anything but bandaid solutions.

You guys do great work here, but I really think you could use some work in converting others to the cause. I've mentioned this in the past, but there are some middle-of-the-road people who have told me in the they they're interested in feminism, but are freaked out by some of the radical views.

I get what you mean, Jane. It's why I tried (in my slightly sleep-deprived state) to nicely explain to frog queen why discrimination doesn't affect the lives of white people anywhere near as deeply, which was why people were getting upset with her. In the end I realized I was just babbling and giving examples from my own life (and like someone else mentioned, it's not about ME), so I linked her to an article that someone else linked. I hope that she and others who were making similar arguments read it. But I'm obviously not someone who has had people asking me to explain such things to them my whole life. If I was, I don't think I'd have been as nice. I imagine it would get damn tiring.

Also -- I'm sorry if my ramblings yesterday offended anyone. I was really just trying to explain to the people who were getting upset and talking about discrimination against whites that it's not something that we have to live with in every aspect of our lives, and so it's really not anywhere near the same level as discrimination against POC. I'm not sure if that came across or not. If so, then great. If not, then sincere apologies for yammering at length about me me me.

I am sorry, but this post did come across as 'not cool', as an earlier commentator said. Certainly, your points were valid - to an extent. But look, there are plenty of different 'fair' views here (Jane Minty's was one) and there is no need to assault points of view that diverge from yours (civilly). Or is this website about a single dogma? Allow people to respectfully disagree, or you just shut down discussion.

Secondly, this is taking white privilege to the extreme. Certainly, there is a lot of inherent racism around.

I am Indian, and allow me to point out that Indian communities harbor plenty of so-called 'racist notions' ourselves. My parents, for instance, hold strong opinions on the kind of clothes they see women wearing in Florida, where they live, and also streotype white culture into 'shotgun marriages, quickie divorces, and undisciplined children'.

Do I agree? No. Do I think it is racist? Yes. And do I expect whites to have some opinions towards Asians that are stereotypical? Yes. But while this may sometimes be about white privilege, it has also a lot to do with how people are in forming perceptions, and it may not be great, but it is inevitable. I certainly don't see it as violence. I agree white attitudes may do more harm when white culture is dominant, but that only makes it more important to tackle other bigger, racial issues.

And minorities copy 'white dressing' too. (Its been argued that sometimes we wear it because we have to 'pass' in white career cultures..cue white privilege, etc. But I wear it because I like skirts.) I dont think copying minority dress should be seen as a political statement or it is likely to backfire, and end up to the point that if I am shopping at Ralph Lauren, people will view it as me being 'entitled' to it because I deserve 'something back' for so many whites wearing kurtas.

Whites need to stop viewing the minority issue as entirely about them being victims. It exists, I have experienced it enough, but it shouldn't be conflated to the point where everything is about it. So much micro-quibbling will not make non-issues into issues.. they will only make our real issues seem less important.

One last thought then off to bed. I noticed in the other thread a comment about how the person felt that the challenges to white privilege made what was supposed to be a safe place for discussion not feel safe anymore (no offense to the commenter who did make valid points, while missing others). I wonder if that person realized how the comments in that thread might make WOC feel that this wasn't a safe place for them and their concerns. Someone else kept asking for examples of white privilege. Although she was given a few, here are some off the top of my head. Requiring people who want to discuss race to couch it in terms that don't offend your sensibilities, even if you don't return the favor. Calling challenges to your underlying assumptions of what is important or legitimate, attacks or insults, no matter how politely or impolitely those challenges are worded. Insisting on having your individual circumstances considered,while dismissing other's experiences. Acting as if the only way to discuss race is within whatever parameters you determine. Finally, behaving as if every general critique of race or expression of experiences with racism must include the "but I don't mean Hiledegarde" disclaimer. Samhita's post wasn't her best or a tour de force of nuance, but she linked to a good piece that she identified as handling something she's been having difficulty framing and she started an important discussion. Oh, I guess that's my last one. Demanding that the unprivileged channel their visceral frustrations into the perfect post before you'll condescend to listen (By the way, I use you both personally and generally.)

Correction above: "Whites need to stop viewing the minority issue as entirely about them (as in minorities) being victims."

Just to add:
It is a bad idea to equate culture too much with clothing. It is a variation of this attitude that harms women in India when they get criticized for wearing jeans by culture purists who accuse them of 'copying western values and culture'.

"Purdueattorney: What makes one culture 'superior' to another?"

Especially when cultures have subcultures, cultures overlap all the time, and when one culture can have mututally exclusive customs at once?

"But punk and race were not being equated, I think. 'punk' and 'gang' were actually the fashions being equated. Just like not all whites are punk, not all blacks are gangsters."

...and not all punks are white, and not all gangsters are black, in the first place.

"So, appropriated a handkerchief is not really appropriating the culture of all black people, just a small subset of them."

A small subset of black people? Not even that (see above).

"I've been doing a little Undoing -Isms exercize by myself for a little over a year now, and I've encouraged people in some social justice groups I work with to do the same, so I'll share it here..."

Thank you. :)

"But I would like to point out that 'time honored tradition' and 'modern feminism' are not cultures."

Exactly!

"Who said anything about the U.S.? There are plenty of countries that don't engage in these practices."

Also very true. Also, don't forget countries like Kenya where the Masai mainstream still has FGM, the Gikuyu mainstream gave it up long ago, and the Swahili mainstream never had it.

"The race privilege of being white, combined with the class privilege of being rich, allows certain people to adopt traits and cultural icons borne out of oppression and a lack of privilege, and to wear them without fear of it taking a toll on their standing in the world."

Sounds like the bigger problem may be that society limits poor people of colour to too narrow a range of styles and icons, not that it lets middle-class white people use too wide a range of styles and icons.

I didn't participate in the previous discussion (comments seemed to be closed by the time I got to the end of them). But if no one minds, I'd like to recommend a book I'm reading in my multicultural issues class: Privilege, Power, and Difference by Allan G. Johnson. I've found it a very interesting and insightful read. It's a pretty quick read too.

I don't think anyone here is saying that Samhita's post was PERFECT (or, hell, that ANYONE on Feministing has consistently perfect, flawless posts). But if we can't acknowledge the legitimacy of her feelings without feeling threatened... where does this leave us as feminists?

Not somewhere great. But if we can't acknowledge (or discuss, or complain about) the specific problems in her post, where does that leave us as people who prefer intelligent discussion? It's one thing to allow for imperfection; it's another thing to pretend the imperfect is, in fact, perfect.

Don't Samhita and Jen deserve the same consideration and the same wiggle room we give ourselves?
Posted by: The Law Fairy

Great point. But I don't agree with the implied conclusion. Do you think the level of disagreement in this post is that out of line for feministing? Or just that it's considered "inappropriate" disagreement due to the subject?

The responses to the initial complaints drove the discussion, don't you think?

And you know what? I suspect that if the responses had been "yeah, sure, the specifics in that post were problematic--but the general point remains valid, so can we talk about that please?" then the matter would have been passed by. As you said, nobody writes perfect posts.

But the reaction of many was that pointing out the legitimate problems with the post DIDN'T get the "normal" reaction of "oh yeah, oops." It got accusations in return.

Is that, as you say, like feminism? Sure: it's like Twisty's sort of, where "questioning me=being patriarchal" is a lot more common. but I don't think it's much like normal feministing stuff, on either side.

"Oh give me a fucking break. We're so superior, right? Because we call it "designer vaginas" instead of FGM and "domestic violence" instead of stoning? Jane, if you plan to make some sort of U.S.-as-superior argument, you best not do it here."

I find this totally appalling. There are sensible ways to respond to Jane's questions - crtitiquing one culture/system does not invalidate the critique of any other culture/system; the values that inform the practices she mentions are not unlike the values that inform many western patriarchal practices; etc. But the suggestion that FGM = "designer vaginas" and stoning = "domestic violence", we just "call' them different things, is offensive and embarrassing.

I've been observing this same debate going on ever since my freshman year of college 6 years ago. As a white guy, the language of privilege did make me uncomfortable at first, although that discomfort was worth it on balance for the important things I learned from it.

Here is an observation of why I think these debates are often very unproductive the first several times white people (or straights, or men or cisgender, or upper class etc etc etc) hear them...

The basic fact is that for white people who lack any educational background in institutional racism, the word "racism" means something else entirely. I-- and I'm sure I'm not alone-- grew up understanding "racism" as meaning "a belief in the inherent inferiority of people who are not white". I had, for instance, relatives and acquaintances who really believed that Blacks were dirty, stupid, malevolent or whatever. That meant they were racist. And since I didn't believe that whatsoever, it meant that I was not racist.

So predictably, the first time someone took some dumb thing I said during this kind of argument and said I was racist, my reaction was to get very defensive, and to discount the credibility of the person who called me racist, because using my definition, he was wrong. I had to get an understanding of what people meant by this word that was different than what I thought it meant before any further productive learning could take place.

I'd wager that the really defensive reactions you see to white people being called racist may have something to do with this disconnect in understandings of the definition of "racism".

Damn, you all were busy while I was sleeping. Since I said I wanted to start a conversation, I'm going to try and respond to a bunch of comments at once. I'll probably miss a few, so don't think I'm not reading them.

It's this general discomfort with race. It's this idea that we should just be able to ignore race, like it doesn't exist. It's this fantasy world where racism doesn't exist, and we can all pretend we live in harmony and we don't have to acknowledge the invisible privileges that white people have.

Exactly. I understand the impulse. But I've never had the privilege to participate in it. Even if I really wanted to pretend my race is meaningless, I don't get to.

But I think it was really immature to post specific people's usernames. It puts them on the defensive & it makes things into a kind of witch hunt.

I didn't post usernames in my post. Not am I doing so in this comment. Not because there's anything wrong with it, I just don't think it's necessary. If anyone wants to see who made the comments I mention they can just find it themselves. A lot of people in Samhita's post wanted examples, and explanations. So here they are. It's called a discussion. The last time I checked comments were viewable the same way this post is.

Focusing on bad fashion choices (to me anyways) almost crates a "squeaky wheel" atmosphere.

That's what I'm saying. It's fine that you don't think certain things are important. But other people do, and that's valid.

You guys do great work here, but I really think you could use some work in converting others to the cause.
That's not the only goal of Feministing. In my opinion it is far from the most important goal of Feministing. And this whole conversation is making it even more clear that we have a lot of work to do with people who are alreadt feminists.

How exactly are my ideas of respecting exploring diversity different from yours? Why do you assume they are different?
I don't assume they're different. I know they are from the things you've been saying. You think we should tone it down, or only talk about issues you think are important, to as you say, help convert others to the cause. That is not respecting or exploring diversity to me.

Wow, you COMPLETELY missed my point. The average person who shares the same philosophy with most posts here has most likely lived her life in a socially conscious manner. We may not all be vegetarians, personally able to get an abortion, in favor of gun control, etc. but I dare say we've made positive contributions to society, and actively strive to be good people. Therefore, when someone accuses us of being "racist," it stings. If a feminist accused someone like Coulter of racism? She couldn't give two shits.

I think you completely missed mine. No one gets a free pass to say racist things because they share some philosophy. If you're really striving to be a better person, then you should welcome being called out when someone feels you are making racist statements.

when you've endured the most tragic 6 months of your life, and some crazy lady on the Internets insults and points a finger at you saying, "(insert label here) privilege
I don't know who you're calling crazy, me or Samhita or someone else, but that is bullshit. Pointing out your privilege is not an insult. It's statement of fact.

Laughing about differences is often the ultimate bonding material.

Again, you're deciding the meaning and value of something. You think those kinds of jokes are funny? Great. I don't. And I explained why.

Thanks again to all of the writers for keeping this blog more then just about gender, becuase I think feminism really tries to answer more social justice questions then just gender.

Yes. That's the point. That's what I think is so great about feminism, and why I think this conversation is important to have.

All I have to do to put these arguments in context is substitute "hearing" for "white" and "deaf" for "black" and the arguments suddenly make absolute perfect sense.
I should think the same thing could be done substituting men and women for white and black. It's fascinating to me. Perhaps for people who have only one axis of oppression instead of two or more fail to be aware in the ways these things intersect and layer on each other such that in some contexts they're the oppressed while at the very same time in other contexts they're the oppressors.

Thanks. That's such an important thing to do. And it's not that difficult. I have to do it too. There are many situation in which I am in a place of privilege. And when I am, I do just what you said. And it really helps.

Even though I'd like to think I'm all progressive and stuff, I've been called on my crap. I made a comment to my best friend a few years ago that I never intended to be racist, but was, and I was called on it. I felt awful. Truly awful. And I apologized (and not the fake "I'm sorry that you felt that way" apology). But more importantly, I agonized (and still do) over the fact that I have some thought/thought process in my brain that would prompt me to say something like that.

And that doesn't make you a bad person. I'd venture to say the experience probably makes you a better person. Which is awesome. And I wish some of the other commenters here could be open to doing the same thing.

am sorry, but this post did come across as 'not cool', as an earlier commentator said. Certainly, your points were valid - to an extent. But look, there are plenty of different 'fair' views here (Jane Minty's was one) and there is no need to assault points of view that diverge from yours (civilly). Or is this website about a single dogma? Allow people to respectfully disagree, or you just shut down discussion.

Um, what? Who is shutting down discussion? My whole post was about continuing this discussion. Saying Feministing is about a single dogma is bullshit, and I think you know it. And it's such a classic tool of anti-feminists that it sickens me. There have been a few similar comments like this, that we're trying to stop anyone who disagrees with us. In comments where everyone can read them, and are responding. Not sure how that makes any kind of sense.

Okay, so I was talking about Samhita's thread with a good friend of mine last night over a lot of drinkage. Originally I was fuming with absolute anger over that article and post. Now I'm less mad, and more hungover then yesterday.

Anyway, my friend made a good point in that, being in canada might be a bit different from being in the US. I dunno, I'm just speculating since I've never lived in the US. Maybe the racial tension is different? I dunno.

Anyway, so I was really mad because I was brought up believing racism is racism no matter who it's directed at. Maybe I'm ignorant. I guess I wouldn't know. But I always thought I did a fairly good job of educating myself about the world..and that's something that I've had to do MYSELF. Unfortunately, small town Nova Scotia isn't the best place to learn anything but how to build a lobster trap.

Bottom line for me, (and yes I'm totally defending my position in the last thread) is that I was offended by a lot of what was said. People kept shouting white privilege at me. I get what white privilege is, but I don't see how simply saying that to me is a solution. I don't think it dismissed the racists comments directed at white people in that thread.

if you can say that every aspect of every culture is positive, I just wouldn't know what to think about that.

But there's a huge gap between saying that some aspects of some cultures --- or some aspects of all cultures --- aren't positive and saying, as you did, that "some [cultures] are superior to others."

It's one thing to say that certain cultural practices are superior to others. It's another thing to say that certain cultures are superior to others in specific ways. It's a third --- and again, very different --- thing to say that some cultures are superior to others full stop.

My objection to that last claim isn't that I think the opposite is true, that I'm somehow committed to the idea that all cultures are of equal value or merit. My objection is that I think the claim is incoherent. It's like when a phone survey drone once asked me to rate Italy on a scale of one to ten --- I couldn't answer, not because I wasn't sure whether Italy was a seven or an eight, but because I had no idea what the question meant or how to answer it in an even vaguely meaningful way.

Sailorman's Twisty comparison is pretty apt, I think.

In the past Feministing has had front-page posts about Disney fairy dresses, a pill for women's sexual dysfunction, elective C-sections, disposable menstrual products, etc. (IIRC.) Each time, the front-page poster implied or at least raised the possibility that the thing in question was a manifestation of a sexist society. Each time, some of us agreed and some of us disagreed. I don't remember anyone ever being singled out as a misogynist for disagreeing, even men who posted -- in fact, I remember some pretty good discussions.

sorry meant to say that "white privilege" was used to dismiss racists comments (directed at white people) that were made in that thread.
Sorry it's too early in the morning to articulate!

Jen, Thank you for this post and for responding to those comments above. I would have really liked to respond to some of what people have said but I didn’t have time and you are much better at it anyways. It’s just unfortunate that people feel the need to go on the defensive and keep repeating that they stand by their position.
And frog queen, Do you realize how when you bring up racism against white people you sound just like MRA’s sexism against men? You say you get what white privilege is but from your comments it just doesn’t look like you do.

Jane, I really am trying to write a constructive and non-attacking post. Here goes…I think we can all agree that making assumptions about someone based on race is bad. I don’t look at a white person and say “evil� nor do I look at a black person and say “lazy.� But, we also can’t pretend that racism is gone – that no one is ever judging someone else on race.

This is where the white privilege comes in – just because you aren’t a racist, there ARE racists and you don’t suffer from their racism. There is a big systematic racist world out there and real people suffer the consequences. Having white privilege doesn’t make anyone a bad person, it just means that there are subtle ways in which white people don’t experience the systematic racism that exists out there. Do you deny that racism still exists? If not, then you have white privilege. It’s not a brand on your forehead that signals to all that you are evil and racist. It IS, however, racist to deny that white privilege exists.

I won’t even go into the notion that some cultures are “inherently superior� other than to point out that it is that exact attitude that is responsible for colonialism and imperialism. Yes, every culture has things that are bad – fortunately cultures change. We used to own slaves in America, is American culture bad or did we change? To say that "we" are better than "them" is the foundation for every genocide, every act of systematic violence out there.

sojourner, obviously I can't make anyone realised that they're wrong. It's wrong to say racist things to anyone. And there were ones directed at white poeple, and I got offended. I don't see how it's okay.

furthermore, i'd like to point out how I've been trying to be constructive in my conversation and how I was basically told to "shut the hell up" by several people. I am still outraged by what Samhita wrote. But the post was a little all over the map and addressing more than one issue, a few of which I don't think are completely related.

Fiz, I agree with what your saying here. Although, I'm not denying racism exists... maybe that comment wasn't directed at me though.. I dunno.

Well said, oljb. White people grow up being taught that "racism" means segregated drinking fountains. There's a moment of epiphany (or there was for me, anyway) when you realize you can stop being defensive when someone calls you on a racist attitude or comment, and instead really think about what they're saying.

One other thing I wanted to comment on related to the issue of cultural appropriation, is that a lot of it does come out of a genuine desire to engage minority culture. I.e., the guy with the bandanna tied in front probably thinks Tupac was really great, and has no idea that his attempt to participate in a part of that culture can cause offense. In that sort of context, accusations of insensitivity and racism are doubly upsetting, because the behavior you're being called on is something you intended as a sign of respect or affection for a culture.

I'm new to the discussion and to this site, but I wanted to toss out a couple of ideas:

1) It might be more action-oriented to think of ways to express these ideas without disenfranchising people-- while power differentials create differentials of moral and ethical imperatives, those moral and ethical differentials tend not to gain much traction in a liberal society like the U.S., so it's worth exploring ways to express this frustration in an individual-oriented way, rather than using the posing individual as a metaphor for cultural clash. People don't like being metaphors. They like being people.

2) Hasn't the hip-hop industry commoditized hip hop culture so that it no longer enjoys the intimacy of a niche culture? Hipsters don't 'ironically' mimic southern poor black stereotypes like eating watermelon, because they haven't been commoditized the same way, so claiming them doesn't seem like it has been 'excused' by its own heroes. The second rappers take white people's money and sign record deals with previously white-oriented record companies, hold concerts in Madison Square Garden and make movies with Tom Arnold, they're no longer enjoying a private culture, but injecting it into white mainstream culture. Actual gang rank-and-file members may not buy into this concept, but the mental process of the white kid isn't oriented towards colonizing an external culture; it's mimicking an element of mainstream culture that has been made available to them.

1.Conflation of culture, nationality AND race. Big problem. The problem is that most americans (and yes, I AM singling out the US for it's unique and dangerous combination of militarism, imperialism, and substandard world knowledge) don't know enough about global religion, politics, history and cultural history (or, for that matter, their own) to intelligently and critically interpret and differentiate between tribal customs, religious traditions, globally mirrored behaviours, and gender/religious/political issues. when you add the ongoing demonization of the middle east cultures to that volatile and uncheckable mess, it's worse, as in the case of female genital mutilation issues. This crap is absolutely mirrored elsewhere, as in the older idea of docile immigrant wives, dumb theiving mexican immigrants, and the conflation of all spanish speaking cultures and all asian cultures. Leveling accusations about a phenomenon that you don't understand at cultures you don't know well enough to THINK about respecting is not argument, it's inflammation, out of defensiveness. Genital mutilation and nazis only stop conversation when you assume that everyone is as afraid of being seen as ignorant as you beleive yourself to be. Dialogue is about overcoming ingorance, which can only be done when you admit it.

2. A personal note about cultural and racial privilege...and the damaging and embarassing assumption of it.
I'm from a small carribbean island, in the lesser antilles. It's gorgeous, politically independent, with a fascinating and complex history of western invasion and tribal cultures. The food's awesome. My mother was always politically active,and I spent most of my younger years with her, we've helped establish heads of state, she was a lecturer at Oxford and the Sorbonne, our educational system was brilliant, and I got a great comparative religious education just by being ain my neighborhood.
I had to sit through a car ride to a small texas town recently while people in the car discussed the 'embarrassment' that are the Dixie Chicks, and the danger of immigrants etc...I said very clearly that I was not a citizen, and the response was that I'd been here long enough that I qualified as american. Because, presumably, that was the gold ring of personal identification. I'm likeable, it was an enclosed environment, and they wanted to keep liking me. The only way they could do that was either change their assumptions, or change their reality of who I was. The latter was easier. Yay, cognitive dissonance.

Oh, and for the record..neither of them see themselves as bigots, culturally uneducated or preferential people. Most fundies see themselves as reasonable people. People dislike the reality of their assumptions...part of what makes the 'just world' sustainable.

Jane and frog queen,
Being reminded that you have and benefit from white privilege is not an insult. If you are white, you have white privilege. It's not a judgement about your values or your personality. You can't help but be privileged. To be "offended" by such an observation demonstrates a lack of understanding of privilege.

SarahMC, I am not saying that I'm offended by people telling me I'm privileged! I'm offended that people are dismissing racism directed at white people by simply saying "white privilege". They're basically telling me that because of white privilege, I shouldn't be offended by racism directed at me. Like what the hell is that? They're dismissing my outrage.

Are you the victim of institutionalized racism in America? What sort of racism has been directed at you?

I'm canadian, so I'd say no. I'm talking about comments made in the previous thread that were directed at white people. I was very offended by Samhita's article and I think it was borederline racist if I may be so bold.

Also, I am descriminated against for being white all the time. Maybe I'm not the victim of violent hate crimes, but I am stereotyped. People constantly assume a lot of shit about me. Like example, assume that I don't know anything about my privileges as a white person.

The fact of the matter is, racism is racism and I was really offended that people were dismissing my complaining about racism towards white people, by simply shouting "white privilege at me". That's not very constructive, is it?

frog queen,

do you know what racism is??? I'm white and there is nothing racist against white people in Samhita's post... I have no idea where you see racism against whites from anything she says. I see criticism of white behavior, but criticism is not racism. Samhita is talking about white people appropriating black poor culture without knowing anything about it or caring about helping out actual black poor people. How on earth is that racism? Telling white people that they can't just do whatever they want to non-white people without ruffling feathers and hurting feelings is not racism.

But it's not "racist" to suggest that you're not entitled to hijack other cultures or make a joke of different cultural symbols.
It's not "racist" to point out that awareness of different cultures and experiences is important.
It's not "racist" to tell you that white is not the default state of humankind.
I just don't see how the original post is racist towards whites, at all.

I said it was borderline racists. The whole article was all over the map, but in the end it sounded like shaking your finger at white people and it came off as yelling at white people for being so dumb.I'm so sick of people telling me how stupid or ignorant I am because I'm white. The actual comments were unbelievable. Plus Samhita isn't trying to spare anyones feelings with that article, it's just plain mean. Her article sparked a debate in me that I've been dealing with for a long time. Why should I dismiss racism directed at me, just because I'm white?

See now I'm just mad again.

"People constantly assume a lot of shit about me. Like example, assume that I don't know anything about my privileges as a white person."

When you clearly demonstrate that you don't understand your privileges as a white person, people aren't judging you based on your skin tone. We're judging you by your words and actions, which clearly demonstrate that you don't understand white privilege and don't take the time examine your own. It's not racism to judge someone based on their words and actions.

Hell, I'm white and I understand white privilege (at least enough to recognize it when I see it in your case). But by your logic, calling you out on your privilege is being racist against myself, which is just about the silliest thing I've ever heard. There are plenty of white people who acknowledge that white privilege exists and that you are demonstrating its very existence in your words and actions. Instead of posting like crazy denying it, and accusing other white folks of racism against whites (which makes no sense) maybe you should think about it for a minute. When multiple people give you a piece of advice based on your actions, is the world out to get you or is it possible you're just really wrong?

What makes you think you're entitled to have your feelings spared? Why should you be protected from the reality of racism and how SOME white people's behavior negatively affects non-whites?
This reminds me of MRAs who cry "sexism!" when women challenge male privilege. Like, if we demand humane, equal treatment we "hate men."

Your totally ignoring my point. Sorry, I'm an ignorant white person. Let me go re-read everything I've studied in my life and re-examine my own privileges cause I'm obviously ignorant. So sorry for wastiing your time and trying to make you see that racism toward white people exists and it's not OK! and that you can't dismiss it by stating white privilage, and if you had read the entire list of comments like I had on the last thread you would know which comments I'm directly refering to.

Thank you for not taking the time to understand what I am saying.

"Sorry, I'm an ignorant white person. Let me go re-read everything I've studied in my life and re-examine my own privileges cause I'm obviously ignorant."

This is EXACTLY what you should be doing. I had to do it as a white person and so have a lot of other white people, so why should you be exempt?

because Im not ignorant and your ignoring my real point.

Thanks NicoleGW for a thoughtful and constructive comment. Your “Undoing –Isms� exercise is really smart and necessary. For all our good intentions, we are all products of the society/family/neighborhood/school/culture/whatever where we live our lives, and internalizing racist/sexist/homophobic ideas is something that happens.

That’s not an excuse – it’s an observation.

Sometimes we need to have these conversations and fight it out. Other times we need to do some serious reflecting and self-examination. In my experience, it’s the self-examination – not the vitriolic arguing – that actually begets change.

One of the smartest race-related things I have read on the web lately was King Kaufman’s reaction to the Barry Bonds poll that came out divided along racial lines (I know this seems unrelated but hang on, he made a really great point) that just because “my reactions don’t feel to me like they’re influenced by race, doesn’t mean they aren’t.�

We need more smart introspection like this! For everyone! Anyway, thank you NicoleGW.

I think we understand what you're saying just fine. If we're way off, you may want to state your case in a different way, without being so defendive and vague about the racism you allegedly suffer. Do you get that it's not racism to call you out on ignorance? It's not a statement about all whites, it's a statement about specific things you've said.

Sorry, I'm an ignorant white person. Let me go re-read everything I've studied in my life and re-examine my own privileges cause I'm obviously ignorant.

Yes - please do. You could do worse than to start with learning what racism actually is. So far you've demonstarted zero understanding which is why you're getting the responses you are. Your ironic bleatings about how the rest of us are ignoring your real point is becoming ever more hilarious.

Sounds like the bigger problem may be that society limits poor people of colour to too narrow a range of styles and icons, not that it lets middle-class white people use too wide a range of styles and icons.

Exactly. Shouldn't we concentrate on expanding the options for poc instead of restricting the options for whites?

Or are we more interested in payback?

Again frog queen, is it possible that we're not out to get you, that we really do understand what you are saying perfectly, and think you are just 100% wrong?

"Exactly. Shouldn't we concentrate on expanding the options for poc instead of restricting the options for whites?"

Why can't we do both?

frog queen, I am legitimately trying to understand which comments you believe are racist against whites. Could you please quote which comments you feel have been racist? I’m really not being snarky here – I just think it would help this conversation if I could understand what comments you feel are anti-white.

Why can't we do both?

Why would you want to restrict the options of whites?

The subject of global politics has been approached, which I believe illustrates why I'm hesitant to use a term such as "privilege" to describe a broad cross section of people.

In the case of US history, blacks have certainly had a raw deal; I'm not denying this, and never have. What irks me is that the white, male 9 year old kid dying of cancer, or the Eastern European pale-skinned Jew are automatically placed in this sweeping category based on skin color alone. Plus, this kind of labeling is divisive; if you want to combat racism, you have to unify, not alienate people.

I spent my early 70s childhood on the East Coast, and my parents damn well made sure I was exposed to as many cultures as possible. I only mention this because I saw all my friends as friends, and not varying levels of "privilege." Are you saying that children should be raised to see each other according to such labels? Speaking of kids, what's my white friend to tell her sons? Does she tell the all white one he's "privileged" and the mixed one he's "disadvantaged?" How does this work in real life?

I (and others here) would prefer not to have every thought shot down with "that's a racist statement!" and eye rolling. Instead of declaring anything out of a caucasian's mouth "racist," (because then it feels as though there's no point doing anything) continue explaining. Everyone (except for that one crazy person, merely hurling insults) has made valid points. I'm ALL for learning about others' cultures, and always have been. I'm also very much into sharing mine.

FYI, I was not condoning the idea that any culture is "superior" to another. Despite the importance of recognizing and exploring globally diverse cultures, we're all still human and have the ability to make stupid decisions.

So because I called you out on your own white privilege - that you still refuse to acknowledge - you call me crazy?

One's illness or disability doesn't cancel out his or her racial privilege.
There are different kinds of privilege.

One of my comments was also called out in Jen's post...

After re-reading my comment, I do see that what I said sounded very racist and I know that my intentions to the contrary don't really matter, it was still racist.

I picked up learning about other minority cultures and respecting them as unique entities as part of my efforts to deal with my own privilege, but judging from the conversation yesterday, I distinctly got the feeling that trying to take part in the traditions or fashions or actively seek out any other aspect of a culture to which I do not belong (however noble the motive) is also racist due to me simply being a member of the culture with the privilege, and it makes me feel rather hopeless.

Saying I know everything about Japan because I watch anime is incredibly rude to the Japanese (and obviously false), but does that mean I can't enjoy anime at all because I'm American? Or is simply recognizing the difference between the two the point?

I know this isn't a Racism 101 blog, but I feel I'm at an impasse and I'd rather be doing something than doing nothing.

Also, I still can't bring myself to see men as a "privileged" class. Again, I believe this is divisive, and hurts the feelings of the men who DO love us and share our views.

To address a previous post, I do believe that labeling people "privileged" is an insult. Maybe you don't see it that way, but I do. I guess that's another root of our disagreement here.

"Exactly. Shouldn't we concentrate on expanding the options for poc instead of restricting the options for whites?"

I never really understood the whole "white privilege" thing until I took a class on Race, Gender and Sexuality. There were quite a few poc in the class and there were many open and honest discussions from both sides. I learned so much from that class and it opened my eyes to so much that I had previously ignored. It isn't really about merely passing laws that expand or restrict privileges, quite a bit of it is about the attitudes of individuals. For example, last summer my then three year old son brushed up against a chiminea at a BBQ and burned his arm. We were instructed to take him to the burn unit at a local children's hospital. We were waiting in the waiting room and the nurse rushed us into the back and said "Oh, I just didn't want him to see that". I looked and saw a young black male in a wheelchair, in handcuffs and with two police officers with him. I asked her "Why? Is he badly burned?" She said no, she didn't want my son to see him in handcuffs and be scared. I looked out in the waiting room and there were three black children sitting there waiting, and had been since before we got there. Another episode was when I went to the court house and the security guard had me walk through the metal detector. It went off and he looked at me and asked "You don't have any weapons, do you?" I said no and he said something about how he didn't think so. I walked a few feet away and saw a black woman have to empty her purse and her pockets because she had set it off.

I am not sure if all of this fits in here or is really even on track, but all of the talk of white privilege has made me want to share. I know that someone posted the essay on white privilege and I highly recommend that anyone who hasn't read it to read it, it is definitely worth it. Just be forewarned that you may not be able to look at the world the same, which is a good thing.

Or is simply recognizing the difference between the two the point?

It's a start! ;-)

So because I called you out on your own white privilege - that you still refuse to acknowledge - you call me crazy?

See above my thoughts on "privilege." If I feel the only point in your post is to insult me, I have no problem calling you crazy. You have refused to have a civil conversation on this matter with anyone.

I read every post on yesterday's thread and I don't really have the energy to jump full force into this one-especially when I see that we're essentially having the same conversation. It makes me sad.

May I suggest every white person on this thread please read the first comment here from The Law Fairy? Especially the 2nd to last paragraph. It is SO right on, thank you for your eloquence!

OK, and one more thing--I just want to point something out re: privilege. The thing is, if you truly acknowledge race/class/gender privilege and make an effort to live your life with more justice, that neccesarily entails GIVING UP some of your power. You can't still hold all the cards AND be working for justice. You cannot help empower others without GIVING UP some of your own power. That is really hard to do, and really uncomfortable, so I understand where some people are coming from on this thread re: feeling defensive/attacked.

But. That doesn't make it sustainable or OK.

"Why would you want to restrict the options of whites?"

Because when white people knowingly comodify the styles of poor poc it is usually without thought to the actual conditions and problems that poor poc face. How many white people wearing FUBU shirts actually volunteer time or money to black issues, examine their place in instututionally racist systems, or work for social change? For white people it is a shirt, to poc it is a statement that "we'll take positive things from your community, but we certainly won't help you fix the problems". And obviously there is a large difference between someone who is wearing a red bandanna to be hip and gangsta and someone who is wearing one because it was cheap and keeps their hair out of their face. We're talking about the former here.

I mean if no one was hurt and nothing was lost by white people deliberately wearing poor poc styles, I would say go for it. But that isn't what happens. POC are hurt by it. And when a bunch of POC, especially WOC, say something is rude, disrespectful, and hurtful, why should we continue to do it? Just because we can isn't a good enough reason to me.

I remember this post from a year ago, which really helped me get this concept:
http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=401

Here is a website that might be helpful:

http://whiteprivilege.com

For goodness sake, Jane. Just because *some* men share our lives and love us as women doesn't mean they're not still privileged as men.

Why should we walk on eggshells when it comes to the reality of certain groups' privilege. Saying that men don't have privilege is basically saying there's no need for feminism.

Jane the only insult is your refusing to believe that it exists. That is insulting to me when I've had to live on the opposite end of the spectrum all of my life.

And that little crack you made last night about me having white privilege because of my white ancestors: So. Not. Funny.

You have refused to have a civil conversation on this matter with anyone.

And when last night were you ever civil to me? And I want quotes.

frog queen, I think I understand what you're getting at. I grew up in a black majority area and a lot of people assumed things about me because I was white, somewhat racist things even. Some kids in the class threw sticks and rocks at me once when I held hands with my 5th grade "boyfriend" on the playground. Is that racism? Yes, it is, and it was wrong of those people to do those things. However, it's also wrong of me to believe that those few years of marginally racist attitudes directed towards me in any way equal the ongoing racism against PoC in this country (the US). I've been to Canada, and there is more equality there, so I know this is harder for you to understand, but whatever racist tones against whites you saw in either Samhita's post or the comments is nothing compared to the racism faced by the communities being discussed.

Is it wrong to assume all white people are the same? Yes, but in America whites have had sufficient benefits over the years that sometimes it's better for us to say "yes, there are ignorant whites who do racist things with or without knowing, and we should all work to be better educated" rather than accuse someone of just being racist against whites. I'm sorry if you feel attacked, and maybe that's a result of the culture differential. Is there a disenfranchised community in Canada that you could make a similar comparison with? Indigenous people perhaps? Not to discount your feelings, but to get you thinking from a perspective you might understand a little better.

For goodness sake, Jane. Just because *some* men share our lives and love us as women doesn't mean they're not still privileged as men.

Why should we walk on eggshells when it comes to the reality of certain groups' privilege. Saying that men don't have privilege is basically saying there's no need for feminism.

How many white people wearing FUBU shirts actually volunteer time or money to black issues, examine their place in instututionally racist systems, or work for social change?

Interesting example...I filmed an interview with them when they were starting out maybe 10 or so years ago. At that time they employed friends and people from their neighborhood in making and marketing the clothing line. I don't know if this is still the case, as with any company experiencing growth. However, assuming this is still the case to some extent, isn't this kind of a good thing? If anyone is buying the product, it would help people in their community.

This may also help:

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

Being called "privileged" is not an insult, and the sooner that we, as whites, stop interpreting it as one, the better. Acknowledging the structure of our society is not insulting to anyone, but failing to acknowledge it is insulting to EVERYONE. I am not insulting myself when I say that I am privileged as someone who is white. It is a fact. I am not insulting myself when I say that I am privileged because I am heterosexual. It is a fact. I am not insulting myself when I say that I am privileged because I am middle class. It is a fact. And I am not insulting men when I say that they are privileged over me. It is also a fact.

The only insult is acting like you're the one person in the history of the world who is exempt from this privilege.

Jane:

Not to pile on, but this is exactly the kind of statement that's got people rolling their eyes at you (or worse).

There are plenty of white people who've spoken up in these two threads without being called racist, so if some people are being called racist, it's not because they're white. It may be well-founded, it may not be well-founded, but it's not because they're white.

So don't say there's no point doing anything because anything you say will be called out as racist because you're white. Claim, if you like, that anything you say will be called out as racist because you don't accept the multiculti orthodoxy here, but don't say you're being slandered or oppressed or something on the basis of your race. Because that's just not happening.

Jane, when you start saying things like “I don’t want to call men privileged because it will hurt their feelings� you entirely lose me. Let’s use the recent pay discrimination case before the supreme court as an example of male privilege…the men who were making 40% more than her simply because they were men were experiencing part of male privilege. They might be huge feminists dedicated entirely to ending gender discrimination. Those men could have found the idea that they were making more just because they were men appalling. BUT, they were still making more simply because they were men.

It is not an insult to say someone has some form of privilege. That you feel insulted by it is why people are arguing with you here.

I mean if no one was hurt and nothing was lost by white people deliberately wearing poor poc styles, I would say go for it. But that isn't what happens. POC are hurt by it.

That's the part I don't understand. How are they hurt by the fashion choices of whites?

Okay, that's weird.

The paragraph blockquoted in my comment just above is the first paragraph of my response to Jane. What I was trying to blockquote to respond to was this:

Instead of declaring anything out of a caucasian's mouth "racist," (because then it feels as though there's no point doing anything) continue explaining.

Hi Genny, Thanks for your comments. Maybe it just is different down there. Afterall.. canada doesn't exactly have "ghettos" well not like the ones I see on tv anyway.

but don't say you're being slandered or oppressed or something on the basis of your race. Because that's just not happening.

Wrong poster, Angus.

Fiz: fair enough, and I see your point. I still believe applying a predetermined label leaves no room for change. A lot of misogynists cite some feminists' use of "privilege" as an example without understanding the concept of feminism. They might give examples of the advantages and benefits of being a woman.

The supreme court example:

BUT, they were still making more simply because they were men.

Not denying this, but this indicates they benefitted from a certain situation because they were men. It's unfair to assume this will ALWAYS be the case, hence the declaration someone is AUTOMATICALLY labeled privileged based on POSSIBILITIES.

I can't apply this label to every person with the lightest skin percentile around the world in every situation throughout history. I feel like you're asking me to do this.

And I'm getting really tired of the word, "privilege." Is it so wrong to be insulted when someone tells you that, no matter WHAT you do, you still have this negative sign affixed to your forehead?

I don't see privilege as a "negative sign."

Right now I'm a stay-at-home parent, juggling childcare and work obligations. If one of my wealthier friends were to say, "well, you should just get a full-time nanny," I'd point out that everything else aside, my wife and I can't afford to pay for full-time childcare right now.

If you don't like the word privilege, lets set that word aside for a minute. But surely you get that all other things being equal, having enough money to pay for childcare is an advantage? It's not affixing a negative sign to my hypothetical friend's forehead to point out that he has advantages that I don't have. It doesn't mean I don't like him. It doesn't mean I think he's a bad person. It's just a fact.

That's what we're talking about when we're talking about privilege --- the fact that we're not all situated identically. The fact that our economic class, and our gender, and our race, and all sorts of other things shape our experience and our options, and that if two people are similarly situated in most respects and one is a man and one a woman, or one white and one a person of color, the person who is white or male is societally advantaged in some ways.

Okay, I read the original thread and I have really tried to understand the perspective it outlines, and I can't. Perhaps because I'm white and privileged, both certainly true. But I can only understand by analogizing, "If I were in a similar situation, how would I feel?" and I simply can't come up with how the original poster feels, under any circumstance.

I imagine, "How do I feel when people of color dress in traditionally white clothes like business suits?" and I feel fine with it. But, white culture isn't threatened. I imagine, "How do I feel when Japanese kids run around with American slogans that they don't understand on their t-shirts?" and I'm fine with it. But American culture isn't marginal. So then I think, "How do I feel when men appropriate women's culture, such as writing fan fiction?" And I'm thrilled with it, they're participating in our art form and diversifying it. But while women are certainly marginalized, there are enormous cultural pressures on men *not* to appropriate women's culture, and the men who do engage in it with us are usually more enlightened. So *then* I'm down to: "As a female comic book fan, participating in a small marginal subculture of fan writers, how did I feel when women who knew nothing of comics flooded into X-Men fandom based on the movie, and more or less took it over?" And, uh... I was fine with that too. A little annoyed at some of the choices they kept making (like the Twu Wuv of umpty-year-old Wolverine and underage Rogue), but I was okay with it.

I may be missing something. The marginalized subcultures *I* belong to either suffer very little prejudice in comparison to POC cultures (I am thinking of geek culture here... marginal, sure, but when was the last time someone got lynched for being a geek?), or, in the case of women, the system is actually binary and rigged *against* men adopting our culture. So I don't get it. But I do know that every time I see people get up in arms about other people borrowing from their culture, it usually indicates small-minded ethnocentrism at work -- "*those* people aren't *good enough* to belong to *our* culture" -- and I'm having a hard time grasping how this is different.

Please note, I *do* see a distinction between cultural appropriation and cultural borrowing, but I don't see that the white kid wearing a do-rag was the first, because cultural appropriation is when you steal someone else's culture to *make money on*, giving them no credit. Like Pat Boone making covers of Little Richard songs. The history of 20th century music is all about people of color, specifically African-Americans, having their cultural representations -- jazz, blues, R&B, early rock'n'roll -- stolen and redone by whites, who would then make all the money. And while I think a lot more POCs are making money off hip-hop than did off jazz, the corporate appropriation of hip-hop certainly exists today. But this is not the issue with the white kid wearing the bandana; this is the issue with the white record exec making all the money off the POC rap artists. The white kid with the bandana may be deliberately attempting to participate in the culture, to borrow its elements out of respect and enjoyment. This is what culture is about, what culture has done throughout human history, and to single out white people to say we cannot borrow from other cultures when throughout history cultures have always freely borrowed from each other is to uniquely demonize whites. Why *shouldn't* whites have the right to borrow elements of African-American culture? That is what culture *is*, it's what it *does*. It always has. Now, if the whites are making money on that culture and the POCs are *not*, that's appropriation. But just wearing a bandana? That *usually* signifies interest in another culture.

So not only can't I draw an analogy to understand how you feel, even when I choose the most marginalized cultures *I* belong to, but it seems like you're going against the flow of all of human history in arguing that this is special and bad behavior. I think you are conflating two separate behaviors -- appropriation, which is stealing other people's culture for financial gain, and simple borrowing, which often demonstrates at least some respect for the culture you're borrowing from. Maybe you can bitch about the guy who sold that white kid the bandana, and you can certainly bitch about the white record executives making money selling black music to white teenagers. But this is not the fault of the teenagers, because the fault in this equation is that someone is making *money* and it isn't the people whose culture it is. It certainly isn't the teenagers, either; they are spending the money.

I have never seen any evidence that a culture is destroyed when the larger, dominant culture borrows from it. I have seen plenty of evidence that a culture is destroyed when it assimilates into the larger, dominant culture by borrowing from *it*. If you're worried about the destruction of black culture, the white kid in the bandana is not the problem, but the skin lightening cream *is*. Goofy t-shirts with kanji on them do not harm Japanese culture, but maybe Disney did (try to find Japanese art now that is not in the "anime" style which was originally borrowed from Disney... and I'm an anime fan, but you could make the argument that Japanese artists borrowing American art styles destroyed an aspect of their own culture.)

All of this, of course, is separate from the gentrification issue, which actually has nothing to do with race and everything to do with class. The middle-class white people currently moving into the Hampden neighborhood of Baltimore are displacing poor white people. Gentrification *may* drive out POCs because they're more likely to be poor, but I would argue that racism means poor white people are *much* more likely to be displaced by gentrification because the seed crystal of wealthier people moving into the neighborhood happens when the wealthier people feel safe enough in the neighborhood to move in, and racism means that whites with money are more likely to feel safe moving into a neighborhood of poor whites than poor blacks. (I don't know how this plays out in areas where the POCs are not black, such as Latino neighborhoods, Korean neighborhoods, and so on -- simply not knowing the language that all the signs are written in seems like it might be an even steeper barrier than racism, though.)

I didn't read all of the comments on this thread (as we're up to 105) but I have a question (so I apologize if someone already asked something similar).
I'm a young white woman in an urban area. I'm trying to be conscious of white privilege. I love my gentrifying-but-still-rough-around -the-edges neighborhood. But if I bought a place to live in this neighborhood, most people would call me a gentrifier, and they'd say so in the same voice that they use to call someone a racist or anything else harsh. So where am I supposed to go? What am I supposed to do? If I move out to the suburbs, I'd be called sheltered plus I love the city. I can't afford to move to a more expensive part of the city, I looked for a place in the new trendy (gentrifying) neighborhood last time I was shopping around and couldn't afford anything.
So where am I supposed to go? Where is a white person of conscience supposed to go? Back to the white-flight suburb I was born in? Stop caring about what people say? Buy different headphones so people won't know I'm listening to music on an iPod (heaven forbid)?
I've heard of straight couples donate to the Human Rights Campaign when they get married as a straight privilege tax, am I supposed to do something similar?
I'm sure someone will say that this post is dripping with white privilege or that the poor little white girl is crying about being priced out of her city, but I'm trying to do the right thing. Please help me out. Thanks.

Jane I agree that I hope that won’t always be the case – but it IS the case now, so how do we deal with it? The pay discrimination case is still a good example to take it to the next step…if the men who make more refuse to accept that she is making less because she is a woman, they are part of the problem. Mr. Feminist might honestly believe that he is making more because he is better at his job. Trying to convince him otherwise might hurt his feelings, but its true – she was making less because of sexism and he was making more because of male privilege.

When we refuse to call this out, we are part of the problem. Yes, the guy might also be a non-white gay dude…but pointing out his male privilege doesn’t automatically mean he isn’t discriminated against in other ways. It isn’t an insult and it isn’t assuming that he is evil or malicious or that his life is all sunshine and lollipops, just that he is benefiting from one of the many systems of inequality that exist.

It's unfair to assume this [privilege] will ALWAYS be the case, hence the declaration someone is AUTOMATICALLY labeled privileged based on POSSIBILITIES.

Actually, I think being privileged is, in part, about the possibilities that we have because of certain (often arbitrary) ways we're situated in the world.

I recognize that I'm enormously privileged--starting with the fact that I was born in the United States in the late 20th century to a white, middle-class family with a secure income and access to education. That doesn't preclude the fact that I'm NOT privileged in other ways, or that other circumstances might prevent me from taking full advantage of those privileges. But the reality of the privilege is still there . . . and I don't think of it as an insult. Wouldn't it be awesome if we were ALL privileged? That we ALL had the depth and breadth of opportunity now only afforded to a small slice of the human community?

. . . thanks to you all for having this conversation. I'm learning a lot, even though I don't have the time to be very involved this week.

I can't apply this label to every person with the lightest skin percentile around the world in every situation throughout history. I feel like you're asking me to do this.

I don't think anyone's asking you to do that.

The question of whether racism is transhistorical is an interesting one, but you don't need to resolve it to answer the question of whether white skin privilege exists in the world today.

And it's not necessary to say that white skin is an advantage in every single situation to say that white skin privilege exists, either. Take it back to class --- there may be specific circumstances in which a person who has no money has an advantage over someone who's rich, but that doesn't mean that rich people aren't advantaged on a societal level.

Being called privileged can function as an insult, actually.

When you see this:

[privileged person]: “I think ___ is true, because...�

[other person]: “That is a privileged statement. So you’re wrong.�

It IS being used as an insult. There's no other justification for that response. In that context, it is a bit like the infamous uses of "oversensitive."

Cara, you responded to a parallel I made, not by actually discussing the parallel, but merely by noting that it was "privileged." If you are using the word in a fashion that you consider to counter facts then yes, it's an ad hom, and therefore probably an insult.

I don't personally feel that insulted by the "privileged" label any more--sure, I've got privilege--though whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is debatable. But as I just wrote on my blog, the linking of privilege to factual and logical accuracy gets a bit old; they're not the same thing at all.

I also think that this "what's sooo hard about accepting your privilege?" line is more than a bit sidemouthed.

What's so hard about realizing that I *have* privilege? Not much. Not much for any other white dude, really.

But.

But if you then start in with "...therefore you should sit down, shut up, read this, not protest, and definitely not question what you're being told" then, um, it's not "so easy" any more. And IMO it makes a lot less sense.

And maybe it's justified. But I don't see how one can complain about people not simply accepting their privilege in the blink of an eye, when we all know damn well that what is asked of them as a result is anything but simple.

Whether or not one is white/POC and therefore whether or not they are possessed of relative privilege is a FACT, not an opinion. Whether or not gentrification exists is a FACT. It's reasonable to demand that someone concede facts.

But whether or not someone should shut up, read things that you demand they read, refrain from wearing certain outfits or listening to certain music, refrain from moving into certain neighborhoods, etc etc... well, those are opinions, not facts. And you shouldn't be surprised that opinions get a lot more debate.

Sorry, Jen, I read your post & for some reason I really thought you had posted the user names.
I don't have a problem with you addressing user comments, in fact, I really like when the mods leave comments in response.
What bothers me, though, is when you respond in a post like that, it kind of becomes like a public scolding. It's like, when you post in the comments you're one of us. But, in a way you're not--you definitely have more power on this blog, as you should since you are one of the bloggers. So when you write a post about specific people, even without using their names, there's this power differential. I don't think you'd do this, but it kind of made me worry--if I say something the mods disagree with will I get a post like that? Are you guys going to start closing threads, deleting nontrolling comments? This is OT but that's been at the back of my mind since the post about taking Nubian's interview down. When I first viewed the page, there were comments. I went out to dinner & when I came back, commenting wasn't allowed. It worried me, so I asked what happened on another thread, noting that I was sorry that my post was so off topic. When I checked that thread again, my question had been deleted.
What I like about Feministing is that there's definitely free discussion. You guys aren't like Anne Althouse, banning anyone who disagrees. This isn't a free-for-all like Salon, which I also appreciate. I don't want that to change.

I've heard of straight couples donate to the Human Rights Campaign when they get married as a straight privilege tax, am I supposed to do something similar?

In other words, you want a nice, convenient way to get rid of your self-imposed "white guilt"? Sorry, can't help you.

But I can direct you to the numerous comments on the other post directed to SoyMilkConspiracy in reply to what to do about her (his?) white privilege.

Sailorman, you just acknowleged your own privilege. Are you insulting yourself?

How can you deny that being born in a developed country makes you privileged compared to most people in this world? Or that being born into a decent family situation (not necessarily you personally) where you have opportunities as a child and young adult makes you priviledged? It DOES. And in THIS society, being white makes you privileged. Being straight makes you privileged. It's not an insult. It's not a judgement about you as a person or even your actions. It's a fact about your place in this society and in the world.

I feel like this thread is divulging into a argument over the word privilege. Maybe we need a new thread? We did this exercise in one of my women's studies classes.

I am privileged becaue:
I am white
I was raised in a upper middle class area
I was able to get a college education (working on my masters)
I am not disabled
I have been able to travel (inside and outside the US)
I was raised Christian
I have a job

I am not privileged because:
I am bisexual and unable to marry my partner
I am not Christian (Pagan)
I am living paycheck to paycheck as a student (not sure where that puts me in terms of class)
I am female
I am fat
I have been sexually assaulted

I have no idea where some people are getting this idea that calling someone privileged is an insult. It's not. It's a statement of reality. My privileges don't make me ignorant or a bad person and my lack of privileges don't make me a saint or beyond reproach.

I sense a lot of this is being made up on the fly.

Malaika924, I think you're being a bit harsh. I found myself identifying with rabbit's sentiments re: what to do if you're white and looking for a place to live. Unfortunately, I'm in no position to buy a house, but I know what she's talking about. I can't think of a good solution.

But I don't see how one can complain about people not simply accepting their privilege in the blink of an eye, when we all know damn well that what is asked of them as a result is anything but simple.

Internalizing truth - especially about yourself - is never easy.

I believe that the reason the "privileged" are becomming so upset is because those without privilege are stepping up and pushing back. People of Color have been ignored, oppressed, and told that their opinions don't matter for centuries. Now, here we are - along with some of our White brothers and sisters - telling the privileged classes that you are wrong, and you are uncomfortable with that because of - tada! - privilege!

It's never hit you this hard before. It feels comfortable. Worst of all, it's making you consider your own white privlege. And that's making you upset.

Then I consider it a job well done.

rabbit_fiasco:
But if I bought a place to live in this neighborhood, most people would call me a gentrifier, and they'd say so in the same voice that they use to call someone a racist or anything else harsh. So where am I supposed to go?

Get involved in your community, and people will see that you're not just there to gentrify. Shop locally, and support the businesses owned by people who have been in that community--as opposed to the Starbucks that just moved in. Learn about politics in the neighborhood--how does the alder(wo)man represent/fail to represent the neighborhood? What sorts of community groups are around and how can you get involved? Get to know your neighbors, even if that means the really vulnerable position of introducing yourself to everyone.

When I was little, my mom was the only white person on the block; but no one thought she was weird or ill-meaning, because she knew everyone, asked about their kids, went to community meetings, shopped in independent stores in the neighborhood, etc. And she felt really good being an active part of her neighborhood, too, and to be a member of a community.

When I moved far away from home to start college at an overwhelmingly white, upper-class school, I knew that even though I'm neither rich nor white (well, half, so lighter-skin privilege), if I was just there as a student at the school and not a member of the larger community, I would be part of a huge problem. My school's in a small city, predominantly black & latino, working class, where most of the industries besides the university have moved out. Town-gown relations are fierce. I try whenever possible to be on the town side of those struggles. My friends there who are not at the university think it's funny how unlike my classmates I seem--but all I'm doing is sincerely joining a community, and trying to fight the same fights as them. It is funny, I guess, because it's so easy! And yet so few students there are willing to step outside their ivy-walled comfort zone.

So, my short answer is, just go out on a limb if you need to to really join the community. It seems like the natural thing to do, anyway, to get to know and understand who's around you.

I like that exercise, SarahS. But in order to create a list like that, one has to accept that certain characteristics or demographic categories make one privileged. Hmph.

I have no idea where some people are getting this idea that calling someone privileged is an insult. It's not. It's a statement of reality. My privileges don't make me ignorant or a bad person and my lack of privileges don't make me a saint or beyond reproach.
I think I have an idea, b/c I went through something similar when I first got into women's studies.
People have this idea of themselves--they work really hard to be feminist, environmentally conscious, & generally nice. But then this idea comes around that you are privileged over some members of society b/c of something you can't even control. It hurts & can be really hard to deal with.
What helped me unravel the idea of priviledge was Kate Bornstein's Pyramid of Priviledge in hir book, My Gender Workbook. Basically, it says that everyone has a different level of priviledge in society & the pyramid isn't two-dimensional, it's multifaceted.

And that's making you upset.

Then I consider it a job well done.

I had a feeling that was your intention. You've been successful.

How does that help change things?

I didn't think you acknowleged that anything needed changing, RM.

SarahMC: It may seem harsh, but it seemed to me that rabbit_fiasco was looking for an easy out, perhaps a way to neutralize her privilege, and there aren't any.

I do like the suggestions made by Honkifyoulike.

I agree with your comment re: honkifyoulike. After reading her comment I felt that I'd jumped the gun on proclaiming the situation hopeless or "un-answerable."

In other words, you want a nice, convenient way to get rid of your self-imposed "white guilt"? Sorry, can't help you.
Malaika, that's not remotely helpful. Or even justified.

Gentrification is a complicated subject that urban planners, activists, and academics have spent a lot of time studying and arguing about how to address. It is at the intersection of multiple phenomena, of which race, class, culture, and privilege are only a few aspects. You've also got population mobility, population growth, which both link in to economic vitality, employment patterns, generational differences in wealth/debt, and a bunch of other factors that are slipping my mind right now.

The question of where (not to mention how) to live, when made in good faith, hardly deserves such a flip response. Rabbit fiasco has to live somewhere, for pete's sake. There are a couple of options:

1) don't live in the city, even though you love it/have friends and family there/need to be there because of your job;

2) live in an area of the city you can't actually afford, lest you be a gentrifier;

3) live in an area of the city you can afford, and live it up without regards to your neighbors;

4) live in an area of the city you can afford, with the understanding that the only reason it's currently affordable to you is that high concentrations of POC and low-income household have lessened the desire for outsiders to be there, and have probably also resulted in lessened police presence, no reliable source of affordable, healthful groceries and especially produce, reduced city services, etc. And know that if and when those things start improving when you move in, it's because the cops and city government and business developers see you and new residents like you as inherently worth more than the previous residents, whether they'll admit it or not. Know that it's bullshit, and say that out loud. Get involved in developing more local affordable and low-income housing stock, advocate for denser urban settlement patterns so fewer are actually displaced by in-migration (this may already be happening where you are, you say "the city" like there's only one). Don't be obnoxious, be respectful of your neighbors. Shop at their stores, be present and interested in learning about where you are and who you're with. And know that some people will still resent that you're there, and that it isn't their job to like you.

Now, maybe the answer to rabbit fiasco's question is 1-3, but those actually seem unreasonable to me. Rabbit fiasco can't spontaneously generate new housing stock, so some version of #4 it must be.

I had a feeling that was your intention. You've been successful.

Thank you! ;-)

How does that help change things?

First, as SarahMC said, acknowledge that things need to change.

Thanks, SarahMC and honk. I have been volunteering at the food bank nearby for AIDS patients and been thinking about getting involved with the women's shelter a few blocks away. I guess I'll pursue that more seriously (with no thanks going to Malaika924's baseless hostility).

I didn't think you acknowleged that anything needed changing, RM.

Then you haven't been reading my comments. As I said earlier:

Shouldn't we concentrate on expanding the options for poc instead of restricting the options for whites?

I may not have been explicit enough for you, but I understand that poc have fewer options than whites. I just feel we should expand the options for poc, not restrict the option for whites.

I don't see how doing the latter helps promote the former.

kmg and rabbit_fiasco:

Boo-freakin'-hoo.

Sarah, I haven't the foggiest idea what your second paragraph is about: You seem to think you're disagreeing with me, but we posted nearly the same thing.

Privilege is a fact.

However, when it gets used as an ad hominem attack--i.e. "your position is incorrect because you are privileged" then IMO it is being used as an insult.

Facts? Insults? Not dichotomous. I'll throw "descriptions of weight" out there as a common example. Or perhaps it will be more obvious to use "uneducated."

I'm a bit overweight (fact). Folks who refer to me as such are NOT necessarily being insulting. However, those who refer to me as such with the intention of upsetting me are being insulting, and assholes to boot.

Now, before you start claiming that I think one can't point out privilege--of course you can. But you're a fool if you pretend that only you, and not the listener, can define what words mean, or how they are interpreted. Nobody seems to think that anywhere ELSE. (see,. e.g. the various conversations regarding racist comments and 'intent')

Angus, I'm fine with "advantage."

Fiz,
Mr. Feminist might honestly believe that he is making more because he is better at his job. Trying to convince him otherwise might hurt his feelings, but its true – she was making less because of sexism and he was making more because of male privilege.

Agreed, but to me it's an advantage he presently enjoys, not necessarily something that will continue to happen (hopefully).

When we refuse to call this out, we are part of the problem. Yes, the guy might also be a non-white gay dude…but pointing out his male privilege doesn’t automatically mean he isn’t discriminated against in other ways. It isn’t an insult and it isn’t assuming that he is evil or malicious or that his life is all sunshine and lollipops, just that he is benefiting from one of the many systems of inequality that exist.

It's difficult for me to imagine actively benefitting if the person isn't deliberately receiving pleasure. If he is unaware or can't help this fact directly, it's unfair to him to slap a predetermined label. Sailorman's post highlighted more of what makes me uncomfortable about making such assumptions.

As long as I don't have to state that people with white skin around the world are always subject (and will be) to privileged situations, that's fine. There are too many exceptions to such a rule. Whites currently have an advantage in many places, and this needs to be eliminated. This needs to change, but is it productive to assume this will always be the case (as with feminism and current male advantage)?

I'm done using the P word. Sailorman expressed an opinion and again about 2 people responded, "see!! white P." It's feeling like escorting at an abortion clinic and hearing the protestor repeat "it's not the baby's fault!!" over and over when the patient volunteers the fact she was raped.

Malakia, your very first post to me was combative. You contunied to do this to everyone until issuing a half-assed apology to one person. You're still insulting people on this thread, and this is totally uncalled for.

FWIW, re: honkifyoulike's sentiments - I'm a big believer in volunteer work period. I've been very lucky in a lot of ways - white privilege, class privilege, have wonderful parents, good education, etc. - and I've always thought of volunteer work (or donating cash when you can) as a way to acknowledge that as someone who has been really lucky, it's my responsibility to help those who aren't so lucky. I don't really look at this as a race or class thing, just my whole person and situation. I also get a lot out of volunteering in terms of meeting new people and getting new experiences so I don't look at it as some kind of white guilt outreach, more like, this is a small thing that I can do.
Anyway, that sentiment and $1.25 will get you a bus ride. Cheers.

Malaika924 - your empathy is underwhelming.

"As long as I don't have to state that people with white skin around the world are always subject (and will be) to privileged situations, that's fine."

Jane, I don't think anyone is saying that. I certainly am not. Hell, I was sexually assaulted in a foreign country because I was mistaken for a prostitute because I was a white woman (the only white women there are prostitutes which in this mans mind gave him the authority to attack me in a public park). I'm certainly not saying that having white skin is always a privilege, but I think in most of America, Canada, and Europe it is. Maybe elsewhere, I don't know...

Malaika924: You said "Boo-freakin'-hoo."

I said

"I'm sure someone will say that this post is dripping with white privilege or that the poor little white girl is crying about being priced out of her city, but I'm trying to do the right thing."

Called it!

Your empathy is underwhelming. Adios!

"I have no idea where some people are getting this idea that calling someone privileged is an insult. It's not. It's a statement of reality. My privileges don't make me ignorant or a bad person and my lack of privileges don't make me a saint or beyond reproach"

SarahS, I dont think people are being insulted by the fact that they have privileges, but rather, if they feel like me, then they feel insulted that their opinions are being dismissed because of said privileges. But thats just how I feel and kinda think maybe some other people feel that this is going on in this thread as well.

Hey all, I know this is an emotional topic, but I have to ask that we keep the discourse moving in a positive direction. If people are going to use the thread to attack each other, I'll be forced to shut it down. I believe Jen's intention was to promote a useful conversation about racism and privilege--not to create a space where people can tear each other down.

That said, it seems to me that anyone who wants to argue that white privilege doesn't exist or try to downplay its role in race politics, feminism, etc, probably isn't going to contribute much to this conversation. Let's please keep it real, and keep in civil. Thanks.

I just feel we should expand the options for poc, not restrict the option for whites.

I saw this analogy on another blog somewhere:

Let's say that there are 2 pieces of candy in one house with 2 children. One children has both pieces, the other child has none. The mother takes one of the pieces of candy from the child with both and gives it to the child with none. The child who had the candy taken away now begins to cry, even though he still has his one piece of candy. All the mother did was make things fair and equal. And that's all POCs want.

Whites don't seem to understand privilege until it's taken, or about to be taken, away from them. And even then, all that's being done is evenly distributing the candy.

Jane:

Your first to me was the one highlighted above in Jen's post. And she said the same damn thing that I've been trying to drill into your little head all last night.

rabbit_fiasco:

Damn straight I have no empathy for anyone who actually had the nerve to equate donating money to some sort of anti-racism fund as a way to combat her own guilt trip for taking part of gentrification. Congratulations, you found me out!

Frog queen:

I dont think people are being insulted by the fact that they have privileges, but rather, if they feel like me, then they feel insulted that their opinions are being dismissed because of said privileges.

As I've said before, I don't think anyone's being dismissed in this thread because he or she is white.

I do think that Sailorman has a point --- that it is possible to use "that's your privilege talking" as a way of shutting down debate --- but I'm not seeing a huge use of that tactic in this thread or its predecessor. In the one specific example that Sailor pointed to, Cara didn't say his statement was coming from privilege and therefore she wasn't going to address it, she contended that it was coming from privilege in the course of addressing it, which is very different.

frog queen, maybe this analogy will help, maybe not. But what the hell, I love hearing myself talk (or, um, watching myself type. Or something).

My dad's a doctor. He's family practice, so he's had lots of female patients, he's provided lots of gynecological and obstetric services, he's delivered lots of babies, etc. Anyway, one day when I was, I dunno, 12, 13, for some reason or other we got onto the topic of empathy, specifically as it relates to pregnancy. And he proclaimed that he was empathetic enough that he could understand what it was like for a woman to be pregnant and carry a child to term -- basically, that he, as a man with no vagina and no ovaries, was able, simply by KNOWING women and OBSERVING women, to know WHAT IT WAS LIKE to live life as a woman, with all the attendant discomforts of our often annoying reproductive system. I had recently started menstruating and was getting to learn all the "joys" of womanhood firsthand (didn't like them then, don't like them now), so his carefree chirping about how he understood what it was like to be a woman made me LIVID.

How the fuck could HE, who has never had to live with cramps or messy underwear or bloating or inexplicable fatigue or, fuck, the STUPID MINDLESS BOORISH JOKES, possibly even begin to UNDERSTAND what it is like to be a woman?? He could be the Dalai fucking Lama and he Would Not Understand. He could empathize, he could love women, he could be the kindest doctor on the face of the planet, but he would never, ever understand, short of growing a uterus.

And I think that's kind of the problem here. As white people, we just don't get it. Period. We never will. And because of this we need to LISTEN to the voices of people of color. When we discount what they say with irrelevant points like "but I'm not like that" or "white people don't have easy lives either" or "you don't know what it's like for me" we are denying the validity of their experiences. We are purporting to understand everything because we can't conceive of something existing, of some experience that we can't understand. It's mildly insulting and it's frustrating to those of us who consider ourselves at the forefront of positive social change.

But this is the ESSENCE of white blindness. Just because we don't experience something or don't understand something or don't see something does not mean it doesn't exist. People aren't attacking you because you're white. I'm white, lots of other people here are white and we haven't been attacked for commenting. People are arguing with you because it appears you are refusing to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, people of color understand a little better than you what it means to be a person of color in our society.

It sucks to have no rejoinder. Trust me, as a lawyer, my JOB is arguing, and I HATE not having a response to something. But we don't. We just don't. We don't understand POC's experiences, and we never will. And acknowledging this, and letting THEM speak for THEMSELVES instead of insisting WE know what their experiences are like, is the first step to eradicating racism.

Luv ya, Law Fairy!

Hi Law Fairy, I get what your saying but I'm not saying that I know what its like to be a person of colour. In fact I haven't once said that. I was addressing the fact that as a white person I've felt racism and in saying that, people basically responded by saying "well you're white privileged so what do you know"?

Malaika, I have my issues with the way you're treating people on this board, and you know that...
however, I really liked your candy analogy. That was an excellent point.

I was addressing the fact that as a white person I've felt racism and in saying that, people basically responded by saying "well you're white privileged so what do you know"?

Exactly.

You may have been prejudiced against. You may have even been in a situation where people have made unfair assumptions on you based on your appearance. But have you faced government-applauded, law-enforced, institutionalized racism? No, you haven't.

Well, right, I understand that you're not trying to say "no, it's not like that for you" -- but by saying "well, hey, this happens to me too" you're effectively saying that you do understand what their experience is, and that you experience it too.

Again, it would be like trying to explain cramps to a guy and having him say "hey, I get cramps too, when I eat onions!" Bottom line is, he Just Plain Doesn't have the same experience, and when he pretends he does, it demeans and invalidates our experiences as women.

Sorry, I didnt get to finish my statement... I'm goofin off too much at work today...

so basically I was offended that my opinions were being dismissed because I'm privileged for being white. Anywho, it doesn't seem as though anyone wanted to listen to my opinion anyway, since I was basically told to shut-up several times.

Thank you, TheSoyMilkConspiracy. I appreciate that.

ahh, I see now, I can't complain about being discriminated against because I'm white... this is just a little off... or is it just that I was stating it here? confusion.

or is it that the descrimination I felt couldn't be as bad therefore i shouldn't be upset about it happening? Is this some kind of racism contest or is this really just about people not wanting to hear what I've been through because it couldn't be as bad as a person of colour living in the USA?

Cause if it's that then you should of just said so instead of repeating white privilege at me for the last 2 days.

ive got to say, it makes me cringe when i hear white people complain about people being "racist" toward them. i think rule number one of acknowledging your white privelege is realizing that you will never ever ever be discriminated against becos you are white (i kno that was the first step for me at least). racism is systematic institutionalized oppression that is expressed in various ways by the dominant majority (in a country; not a specific neighborhood or city. the people on your block are not currently making the laws that effect all of us)and imposed upon the minority. via violence, intimidation, hiring discrimination, being targetted by the police becos of your skin color (i cant recall the exact term right now), and in countless ways i may never understand becos i have the PRIVELEGE of being part of the white majority in this country.

i forget who said it, but im pretty sure i read it in comments to a previous thread on feministing, this. someone can be prejudiced against you becos you are white. they can have all sorts of pre-concieved notions of who you are and what you think. but that is ONE person being prejudiced against you, that is not racism becos racism is a system of oppression. i can personally hate men and think theyre all big smelly potential rapists (not my actual feelings)but that is my personal prejudice, that is not sexism toward men, becos they are the ones with the privelege within the society we share, and sexism is a system of oppression.

and the comparision of an eastern block jew to textbook definition of "white" irritated and also confused me. from what i understand, the universal we recognizes that the jewish people are also an oppressed minority, not a part of the white privelege majority. to act otherwise is completely dismissive of jewish history and of the current struggles of their peoples. id really appreciate if i never again saw someone throw out "oppressed eastern block jew" as an argument against "white privelege" becos the former does not negate the later, rather its just further proof, cos last i checked, its priveleged white people oppressing the jewish people also. (my understanding of white privelege has consistently implied non-jewish. if im wrong please correct me)

ask a neo-nazi or a klan member, i gaurantee they hate the jews just as much as they hate any other minority, but they sure would love my own pasty french/irish historically catholic (family history) self, which is why i have white privelege, but my jewish boyfriend does not.

Everyone keeps talking about how I'm being "too harsh", "hostile", etc.

First of all, as I've stated before (either in this board or the last - or both), I and other POCs go live with oppression, discrimination, and racism every day of our lives. To have our experiences questioned, played down, and just plain ignored is tiring, frustrating, and maddening. So yes, people, I am pissed.

I am pissed because it's comments like the ones on this thread and the last that get people like me and other POCs wondering "Why the fuck do we even bother?" Especially, since you won't even listen to us, but when a white person comes along and tells you the exact same thing we been trying to tell you for hours and you listen to THEM. WTF is up with that? Not that I don't appreciate Law Fairy, Cara, and everyone else who's spoken up, but I think it's messed up.

I'm starting to ramble, so I'm just going to make one thing clear: I'm not going anywhere. Short of a ban, you won't get rid of me and my white privilege, anti-racist tirades. It is my hope that by speaking up, more WOCs will come out and do the same. I, for one, am tired of us getting shut down left and right as though our voices don't matter.

Well, mine is going to matter. And you're all going to hear it, dammit. Whether you like it or not.

No, frog queen, it's not that you can't be discriminated against, it's that your experience with discrimination isn't the same... in the same way that sore stomachs aren't the same as menstrual cramps, to borrow the example above.

It's not that you can't complain about it; I don't think anyone would say that. It's that what you're complaining about is different than what people of color complain about. There's dimensions to the issue that we don't see because we don't experience them first-hand.

There's some confusion here between racism as an attitude and racism as a social institution... while we're perfectly capable of being on the receiving end of the former, we only stand to benefit from the latter (at least in the US). I don't think anyone would say that people can't hold repugnant racist attitudes towards whites, or that that's not problematic.

Frog Queen:

*Everyone* is discriminated against - that is not the same as racism.

Discrimination simply means to choose. People choose based on their opinions, beliefs, prejudices and stereotypes, and this influences their actions (which may be as small as who you chooose to smile at or as huge as deciding who lives and who dies). We ALL discriminate.

What sets all the -isms apart from discrimination is whether or not these decisions are reinforced by a culture of superiority.

When someone discriminates against you on the basis of your ethnicity or skin colour - this is not racism. It is discrimination because you live in a world where white is seen as superior to black and this is reinforced by media, language, politics, etc etc.

Believing that your experience of being discriminated against is the same as when POC experience discrimination is what people on this thread are trying to tell you is your white privilege talking. It's not the same.

timsso, Okay so basically, I just shouldn't have brought it up on this thread then?

And yeah, I didn't take in consideration the entire institutionalized racism, and seperating racsism as an attitude. Maybe it's cause I'm not from the US, I dunno.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me instead of attacking me. I couldn't understand why I wasn't "allowed" to speak about racism towards whites, but your saying that they're talking about this big institutionalize thing and I'm jsut talking about everyday attitudes on the streeet.

okay so that makes sense. kinda wish someonee had said something before hand. I still think I was perfectly within my bounds to talk about racism towards white people, but I see how people could have taken offense to it.

Malaika, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Jessilikewhoa:

from what i understand, the universal we recognizes that the jewish people are also an oppressed minority, not a part of the white privelege majority. to act otherwise is completely dismissive of jewish history and of the current struggles of their peoples.

I certainly didn't dismiss Jewish history at all. I'm speaking strictly about making assumptions about one group of people based on a physical characteristic. Is it fair to light-skinned Jews when they are mistaken for "white," especially in context of this whole discussion?

id really appreciate if i never again saw someone throw out "oppressed eastern block jew" as an argument against "white privelege" becos the former does not negate the later

Who said this? I have no idea where you're getting these ideas from. Perhaps a better example in this case is any oppressed person from an economically-depressed area of the world who might be subject to this label, especially if he or she happened to immigrate to the United States. Is it fair to suddenly regard someone like this to the same standards of advantage of a white person who was born and raised here?

Malaika924, I asked a question, a question that has been validated by other people here. You took it as an opportunity to tell me off. That's hostile.

I also appreciated your candy analogy. I don't know why you attacked me, something about having the audacity to live in one of the few areas where I can afford the rent. I'm not going to apologize for that, nor for asking how to be a better neighbor.

Law Fairy, your analogy is a good one, but I'd like to take it in a slightly different direction.

It's presumptuous for a man to claim he "gets" the experience of being a woman, but by the same token, any one woman has by virtue of her anatomy only a partial insight into other women's experience of womanhood. A woman who hasn't ever gone through childbirth doesn't have all that much more innate insight into the childbirth experience than a man does, and a woman who has experienced childbirth (or cramps, or sexual harrassment) one way may only have a limited sense of what another woman went through when facing that "same" experience.

There isn't one experience of being female to get, and there isn't one experience of being a person of color to get. There are commonalities in the experiences of women and people of color, particularly within cultures, but none of us can assume on the basis of demographics that we get someone else's experience. (Who gets the experience of women like you more --- the most pro-feminist, woman-identified man you know, or Phyllis Schlafly?)

You say that we, as white people, "don't understand POC's experiences, and we never will." In a real sense that's true." But it's also true, as you said in your first post to the thread, that there's a huge amount that white people can do to help themselves understand people of color's (various) experiences better, and that putting in that work is essential to living as a decent human being in a multiracial society.

It's also important to note that getting it is about shared knowledge as well as identity. Because what gives women insight into the experience of other women isn't just their ovaries and uteruses, or even having heard the boorish jokes and put up with the bullshit sexism --- it's the fact that they've spent a lifetime talking to and listening to other women talking openly and honestly about their own lives. That's not an experience that men are denied by virtue of their gender, but it's an experience that very few men have, and it's not a lack that a man can overcome by reading a couple of books or bugging his girlfriend to "tell me everything --- I really want to understand."

And then, of course, there's the fact that members of an oppressed class need to pay much more attention to the worldviews of the members of the dominant class than vice versa. It's possible to grow up straight and not learn anything about gay people. It's not possible to grow up gay and not learn anything about straight people.

Which is I guess a long way around to saying that I think it's less important to get across the idea that men (or white people) are intrinsically incapable of understanding the experience of women (or people of color) than it is to get across the idea that the overwhelming majority of men (and white people) have far, far less of an understanding of the experience of women (and people of color) than they should. And can. And must.

In your first post to the thread you said that as a white person you recognize your own blindness on issues of race, and "try to become a little less blind each day." That's what I think folks need to take away from this --- that the vast majority of white people are walking around blind, but we're not doomed to blindness. We may be doomed to myopia, but we're not doomed to blindness.

Malaika, I don't agree with everything that you've said, but I appreciate your voice as well. And you're right: it's completely insane that someone would listen to me, a white woman, over yourself, a person of color, when it comes to issues affecting POCs. It's insane. It's exactly the same as when feminists make an argument over and over again, and then some great man comes along and says the same thing, and all of a sudden, everyone listens. Well, that guy is great and I'm thankful for him. But that doesn't make the situation any less insane or insulting.

Sailorman, as Angus pointed out (thanks Angus) I never discounted your view because you, as a person, are privileged. I discounted your view because you are privileged and your comments show that privilege and fail to take that privilege into account. If I discounted every view because it came from a person of privilege, there are extremely few people in this entire world whose opinion I could take seriously. And I certainly couldn't take my OWN opinion seriously, because I admit to my own privilege. The difference is that in the course of forming and expression my opinion, I take the fact that I have privilege into account and do my very best to take the point of view of those who do not share that privilege into account. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I fail miserably. But when I do, I don't attack the person who points it out to me instead of looking at myself. You're not wrong because you're white. You're wrong because your comments suggested that the fact that you were white doesn't make a damn bit of difference when you're talking about issues surrounding race.

Angus, one hundred percent agreed. The focus of my post was on our inability to totally understand, though, because I was trying to help frog and others see a little hint of why it's so offensive to pretend we do. But, absolutely, I didn't mean for it to sound hopeless. I guess my view of the best way to become a proactive force in the universe is somewhat akin to a 12-step program. First, you have to admit you have a problem. You're an alcoholic/drug addict/racist/whatever. And then you move on from there. It's this sort of accepting an unpleasant aspect of yourself while detaching yourself from the guilt and the blame, which are counterproductive. So I used more forceful words to kind of drive the point home: we are X and we cannot change that. We have to accept it and move on. That sort of thing.

Jane, why would I bother with flies? You're a big enough pest as it is.

whose pretending? I wasn't pretending anything... as timsso pointed out, I wasn't thinking along the same lines as the poeple on the thread. how is that pretending?

Angus - I saw this comment of yours and had to respond:

don't say you're being slandered or oppressed or something on the basis of your race

I'm a white man who was married to a black woman. Do I get to say I've been slandered on the basis of my race?

Before you answer, consider the following exchange, which occurred a few years back in Dupont Circle in DC:

Bum, sitting on bench, addressing my wife as we walk past holding hands: "You with the wrong motherfucker, little sister. You with the wrong motherfucker."
Wife: (turns back, flips him off)
Bum: "That's right, little sister, that's what I'm gonna do! I'm gonna fuck you! I'm gonna fuck you with my with my big black dick and give you what you need! What that little white boy you with never gonna give you!"

Please tell me whether this slanders me. You obviously know a great deal more than I about race relations, so your opinion must be more valid than mine.

I think that we can agree that for the most part, those with white privilege don't want to be racists. So this is a discussion with the potential for a lot of allies but it's also easy to turn people off and for a lot of people, once they're turned off, they're not coming back.
Part of my issue is, this dialogue is all very well and good but what can I do? I don't want to be a kid holding two pieces of candy. I don't want to be a kid with one piece of candy crying because I used to have two. So what do I do? Clearly, this is a big problem and there are steps we can take to be a part of the solution but they're not easy. I don't want to be a racist. So now what?

mamis62: in that situation, you were very minimally slandered. YOUR WIFE was slandered.

I think folks are trying to point out that there's a difference between the personal and the institutional, between personal racism and institutionalized racism. Personal racism can be identified more or less readily. Institutionalized racism is invisible. White privilege is about being on the favored side of institutionalized racism and it, too, is invisible. It's meant to be invisible--its invisibility helps keep institutionalized racism invisible.

Mami, I never said that no white person was ever slandered on the basis of his or her race. I went to public school in New York City in the seventies. Trust me, I know better.

I was responding specifically to Jane, when she said that people here were "declaring anything out of a caucasian's mouth 'racist.'" (I screwed up the formatting, so the quoted text got eaten --- see my next comment in the thread for the correction.)

If anyone here had declared that anything that a white person said was racist, that would have amounted to slandering white people on the basis of their race. But since nobody'd declared any such thing, I asked Jane not to claim that she --- or anyone here --- was being slandered in that way.

Angus, the childbirth analogy and rest of your post were brilliant. Not being doomed to blindness is more of the emphasis on a positive outcome I was hoping to see here.

Law Fairy: I understand what you're saying, but comparing the default state of white people to alcoholics and drug addicts bothers me.

Jane, why would I bother with flies? You're a big enough pest as it is.

How very mature of you.

Cara: in that situation, you were very minimally slandered. YOUR WIFE was slandered

I realize this may be hard for you to understand, Cara, but when you're married to someone, and you actually love them, you don't really separate out the percentages of who got slandered and by how much. In fact, seeing your spouse hurt is far worse than being hurt yourself.

But I feel much better now that you've pronounced me "only minimally" slandered. Thanks. It still hurts to think about the incident...but because of your post, the pain is only minimal.

Only as mature as you've been.

Jane and Malaika, cut out the back and forth sniping. If you want to discuss, fine. But you're both crossing the line.

I really don't want to ban anyone or moderate out comments on this thread, so help me out.

Ok, for people still asking about recognizing discrimination against whites (mami, frog queen, etc) I have a somewhat clunky metaphor that may help.

2 kids on a playground. One's about 5'7", weighs 140lbs, takes karate lessons. One's 4'11", weighs 90 pounds, doesn't take karate lessons. Is it wrong for the smaller child to hit the bigger child and vice versa? Yes. Do I expect the bigger child to be as hurt if they got his as the smaller child would be? No. It's wrong if either child hits the other, but on the basis of size and training, the smaller child will be more affected by being hit than the larger child.

Now, to make it a better comparison to racism, that smaller child will also be punished for hitting the larger child even if the smaller child was hit first. The smaller child also doesn't have the same access to all parts of the playground, and when they ask for help the teacher will shrug and say "what do you want me to do? work it out yourself".

Yes it's not very good, but I've read a lot today and I have a lot to process. I moved from a majority black neighborhood to a rural area that still had an active Klan chapter when I was 12, a lot of what's been said here has helped to shape some of my own race/privilege perceptions, so I'd like to thank all the people who commented for that.