Great post Samhita.

I lived in Japan for a few years and "Ghetto Chic" is alive and well there. My friends and I would be walking down the street and young Japanese men with Eminem on their ipods would see my black friends and shout out "Hey N****!" It was shocking and disgusting and almost laughable because of their complete ignorance about what that word meant. I knew men who specifically were learning English so they could go to L.A. and learn to rap. It was incredible to see a fashion trend where the people wearing it had absolutely NO idea of the history behind shoes without laces or caps worn to the side.

I think what I'm trying to say is that this problem isn't just in the US, but has permeated other cultures and that is worrisome. I don't really have a solution, but that the problem distresses me too. I did what I could to explain to my students where rap and hip-hop originated, but sometimes the cultural differences got in the way of any deeper understanding.

I think half of the arguement in this article is stupid. Okay gentrification sucks ass and having lived in a low income area dangling off the poverty thresh-hold most of my life, it certainly made me mad when a bunch of rich kids from the west coast moved into my neighborhood so they could live cheaply and buy more shit with mommy and daddies money. Anyway, no point and talking about poor forgotten nova scotia. But this article is kinda weird. It comes off as a little vain and childish. I don't understand why the fashion should matter?!(unless their fashion is putting someone in danger,i.e.colours) but it's just stupid clothing! I don't see why people have to identify with clothes so much to define themselves.

If you don't like wealthy people fucking around in your city "ghetto" (or in my case, my fishing village "ghetto")that's one thing. But to get all pissy about something as trivial as clothing, just seems a little... well childish?!

Maybe I am just so out of style, but what are door knocker earrings?

Another reason to hate gentrification is that is pushes people out of neighborhoods. I live in Long Beach, CA and the downtown area is under attack from massive gentrification. Last summer, this really hip ecofeminist gallery/collective had to shut down because the city evicted them as part of the redevelopment plan. What's in their old space? A hipster smoke shop. Like Long Beach really needs another one! Independent bookstores like Equal Writes (an LGBTQ shop) are closing (Shades of Afrika and 2000+ may be next). I moved to Long Beach because I liked the fact that there wasn't a Starbucks on every corner. Last summer when 2 of them opened within 4 blocks of each other, I knew it was the end. Fucking yuppies!

I love Vice Magazine but I don't agree with everything they've ever published.
I think door knocker earrings are just really big earrings, as in the size of a door knocker or door knob.
Reading this, I feel conflicted. I live in an urban neighborhood. Should I hide my ipod when I walk around? Would it be wrong for me to wear a Neighborhoodie with the name of my neighborhood? I guess I have a hard time with the idea that white boys can't or shouldn't wear bandannas. Hell, if you want to give it a shot, go nuts but it'll probably make you look like an asshole. On another blog I read, there was this whole long thread yesterday about gentrification. Short version - black children in a gentrifying neighborhood apparently have thrown rocks at white gay men. Naturally, the conversation degenerated into "you're a racist" "no, you're a racist" but I still fail to understand why it's offensive for me to live and dress as I please.
I also find it interesting when people use the word "ghetto" referring to black culture when it makes me think of Jewish ghettos in Warsaw.
Sorry, I guess I just don't get it. I'm more offended when people wear seersucker than bandannas.

If whites make up only 44 percent of the poor, then, collectively, minorities are the majority.

Unfortunately, I don't see any solution to gentrification, except to ignore poor communities as ever and let them languish in crime and poverty. That's the only way to keep rich white kids out.

Frog queen, the reason gentrification is problematic is because the rich kids, over time, push out the original residents. As little boutiques are built to cater to them and property values rise, people who once lived in an area comfortably can no longer afford it and are forced further out into the periphery.

Also, appropriating cultural symbols without having any clue to their meaning is offensive and potentially dangerous. When I worked in Central America, I understood that there are very strong ties between certain clothing designs and certain villages. Wearing a specific village’s design meant something and you sure better know what you are signaling before you walk into a place where no one knows you. Silly or not, people use clothes to signal identity (carrying your Standard flag with you or wearing a tabard in the early middle ages for example). This isn’t just “fashion� it’s a culturally meaningful symbol. To wear something cause you’re “cool� without knowing what you are signaling is ignorant and dismissive.

Rad post, Samhita. I'm a conflicted gentrifier in Baltimore and this is exactly why I don't wear my blue bandannas outside of my house. I have a ton because they're cheap and hold back my hair when I'm doing rehab work, but have a ton of significance to some of my neighbors, and I want to be sensitive to that. It isn't childish, it's being a decent neighbor. God knows I already do a lot of bad in the name of affordable housing (I have so many mixed emotions about this topic)--being aware of cultural hijacking is the very least I can do.

i think the problem is someone copying a given neighborhood's fashions without realizing the context. in particular, wearing gang colors in a very obviuos fashion without realizing the consequences -e.g. that someone could misread what you're wearing and kill you.

i realize that it sounds a lot like blaming women for what they're wearing if they are raped, but in this instance it isn't MEN appropriating neighborhood dress out of context - i've also seen women doing the same thing. It's when one culture apes something potentially dangerous in another culture - and maybe gets some innocent bystander killed that this is problematic.

i had friends who worked with a public tv station on a documentary about gangs in the metro Albq area. I stopped going to clubs with them when they started given gang signs/hand signals to cars that would cruise the lines of clubs we were waiting to enter.

in terms of 'fashion' though, i'd hope that most long time regular inhabitants would realize what an ass these newcomers are...and encourage them to go further, because what neighborhood doesn't improve with clowns?

I don't agree that fashion is violence except when it actually takes lives, like when you're talking about fur and leather.

I think a conversation with this kid would have done more good than this rant.

bailey_comus, thanks for making the connection: "i realize that it sounds a lot like blaming women for what they're wearing if they are raped."
One of my problems is that I'm just damn oblivious. At a club or on a street corner, unless someone is in my face, I don't notice drug deals. How the hell am I supposed to know what color bandanna is appropriate or not? Is there someplace where I can find out?
Damn, I'm sheltered.

I was walking around Brooklyn the other day with a red bandanna popping out of my back pocket that I always keep on me to tie my hair up in case it gets hot. A guy straight up had to tell me to take it out because I was apparently signaling that I was a Blood. Am I ignorant? Yes. Is it my fault that I didn't know what a red bandanna out of a pocket meant? Not really - I grew up in the whitest suburb known to man. How the fuck was I supposed to know that? It's not like there's a nation of hipsters out to get you, dude. Sometimes, we just don't know. Can someone please send me a list of shit that middle class white people aren't allowed to wear so I don't inadvertently piss someone off?

You seem to direct a lot of your rage at individual people that dress a certain way, without acknowledging that people pretty much wear what they're told (and what Urban Outfitters happens to be selling that week). It's probably more productive to criticize the machine that makes these styles popular instead of the poor souls that dare cross your path while wearing something that you consider to belong to your culture and your culture alone.

I also believe bandannas were originally made popular by Western cowboys, but nobody wrote an angry blog when rappers started wearing them. Just saying.

keshmeshi-

The problem is that white suburbanites, in genera, aren't really interested in building up communities. So they move into these neighborhoods, and live there for a while, and then they move on. I don't know what the specific policy at city levels should be, but it should be geared toward the construction of actual communities where people are actually interested in the development of their local neighborhood, where they actually know their neighbors, etc.

We need to start having a stake in the places we live.

Even if we're renters.

I understand that people are possessive of symbols of their culture, especially in the face of an overwhelming fashion and culture industry which picks and chooses styles from different cultures while leaving the meaning and symbolism behind. However, I find it frustrating that it is automatically assumed that the white boy in the coffee shop is not from the neighbourhood and has no clue about his bandana. Frustrating though it may be for those interested in cultural history, most people don't really care about the symbolism of the clothes they're wearing beyond the current connotations created in the mainstream culture. I'm not sure that everyone who wears plaid knows the history of that particular plaid, nor do I assume that they should before they wear it, nor that they should be Scottish in order to do so.

As annoying as people with "mommy's money" may seem, just because somebody has conspicuous wealth in the form of technology does not mean that they have money for rent and food. Many students (and others I'm sure) have nice things (as presents from family) but are supporting themselves and thus cannot afford to live in the place you seem to have decided they should (ie the suburbs?).

So, everybody has a different interpretation of what clothing means. We've seen this with the interpretation by the religious right of women who choose to wear more revealing clothing. To the women it often is a symbol of pride in their bodies and liberation. To some others it is a symbol of their promiscuity and degradation. So, please, can we stop with the snap judgements already?

Fiz, Did you read my post? I know what gentrification is. -- Oh btw, I guess Axel Rose and his red bandanna was just trying rip off the gansters back in the 80's eh? Good thing he didn't tie it on with the knott in the front, wouldn't want to offend anybody. It's just clothes. Don't be so petty. They're are more important things to worry about if your pullin out the gentrification card...

I can sympathize with how irritating it is for people to appropriate the symbols of your culture out of context. At college, I was one of the few kids from a genuine working-class background, and most of the student body was fairly upper class, if not exactly uber-rich. I would kind of roll my eyes at the rich kids from Seattle sitting around listening to Hank Williams and drinking Pabst, but it didn't make me furious or anything. Most of them were nice kids who were experimenting with different styles, just like everyone else that age. Kind of dumb, but forgivable.

Drinking Pabst? Did we lose a war or something?

I for one am looking forward to Shelby Lee Adams Chic, featuring the fashions of the Appalachian holler.

To move into a community, uninformed, taking from it, not giving back and flaunting your expensive Ipod and "ghetto chic" accessories, is a form of violence.

This makes at least six different assumptions about the background, nature, and/or intentions of someone you wouldn't know from Adam except that he shared oxygen with you once for about seven seconds.

Sammy, I can't tell you how much I can relate. I grew up low-income in Brooklyn, and am as an adult (because of being a full time activist/progressive writer) still low-income, and still in Brooklyn -- and I've lost three apartments in the last six years due to ridiculously skyrocketing gentrification. I can't take it anymore! I'd be more articulate at the moment about the political/cultural issues you've raised, but I don't have time because I'm too busy wading through the f*cking double-wide baby strollers and "Sale! Only $1,798,076 for a two bedroom coop!" real estate ads in Park Slope...

Yeah, but that's the point of the post, SoyMilkConspiracy--you're inadvertently pissing people off through your ignorance. If you're going to live in an area where this is going to come up, it's YOUR job to figure out how not to piss people off. You don't get to walk around clueless and then claim ignorance as a defense.

I wish people would stop trivializing the word Ghetto. Not all of us here are 20- or 30-somethings with no memory or connection to the real meaning of the word. As a Jewish woman whose parents were survivors of the Ghettos at Terezin and Lodz, I am saddened that the phrase "ghetto chic" gets thrown around. Ghetto is a place where the Jews and other "enemies" were rounded up by the Nazis to die. Only a few percent of the victims in the ghettos survived the deliberate attempts of the Nazis to exterminate them. This Ghetto is not synonymous with a poor neighborhood in the US. It is a shame that people have forgotten what the real ghettos were - thus possibly dooming us to repeat them. Most of my family died in Terezin and Lodz. Please do not sling around the word ghetto so casually, and please do not judge one person by the signs that they may innocently wear - my parents were forced to wear a yellow star. That did not make them bad people.

Well said SoyMilk! I agree. I also maintain, it's just fucking clothing, don't be so god damn touchy.

Great post, Samhita.

The comments after the post leave a lot to be desired, though.

If you are ignorant, learn. If you learn something that challenges your beliefs, think.

If you read the posts, they are not talking about "oops, I was walking down the street wearing clothing item x and someone told me that clothing item x traditionally signaled support for gang y in our community, but I had no clue that is what it meant."

They are talking about people who are deliberately appropriating pieces of cultures not their own (and yes, fashion is a cultural signifier even if you don't think so. Thanks for dismissing aspects of my culture so easily.).

Depending on the situation, it is trivializing that culture; it is mocking that culture; it is an attempt to colonize that culture; it is a way to fetishize that culture.

It is dismissive, hurtful, and can be seen as an attack on that community.

If you truly don't care, you obviously have the privilege to put on your blinders again. I would suggest, though, when faced with your own ignorance, take that as an opportunity to learn something.

ooo sorry to dissmiss aspects of your culture, whatever culture you do or think you belong to. this is just so silly.

"To move into a community, uninformed, taking from it, not giving back and flaunting your expensive Ipod and "ghetto chic" accessories, is a form of violence"

well, if I see anyone wearing a pair punk pins and they are not punk, I guess I should get offended when they come into my punk neighborhood. I guess they are taking a form of violence against my culture... oh wait, i'm white, apparently I dont have a culture.

As msgoldstein's post about the origins of the word Ghetto should remind us, cultural appropriation happens in all directions.There's nothing new about white hipsters' taking on symbols of black culture -- Black culture has been cool for decades (see Norman Mailer's essay "the white Negro" and Robert Greenfield's excellent novel Temple, about a jewish kid who is infatuated with black culture.). Every subculture could get up on its high horse about the way it is appropriated by outsiders. Think of Madonna and her infatuation with Kabbalah.
We are a polyglot society, that's just the way it is. Things mean one thing when they're invented, then they get taken up by outsiders and mean something else. Then the original people have to think up something new to stay ahead of the curve. Protesting this process is like protesting the earth turning on its axis.

Geez, some of you guys need to relax. Samhita isn't attacking anybody. I don't agree with everything she wrote, either, but some of you are being pretty shitty, IMHO.

So Snappy Mac, along with educating myself about gentrification, institutionalized racism, the prison industrial complex, and about a billion other issues that we ignorant whities are supposed to educate ourselves on to be tolerable at best, I have to research every piece of clothing I wear so my big, bad, 120 pound ass isn't trying to overtake the vulnerable streets of Brooklyn? Please. Some of us aren't privileged enough to have the luxury of THAT much free time, and I'm doing the best I can.

The guy who told me what the bandanna meant wasn't being an asshole - he was actually really nice and I appreciated the information. What offended me was Samhita's original suggestion that rich (which I and most of my "hipster" friends am FAR from, especially in NYC) white kids are conspiring to rob people of color of "their" culture. I'm not saying that biting other people's styles doesn't happen (in ALL communities), but I think everything should be taken in context - you can't tell why a person is wearing something just by looking at them. There's a big difference between wearing a bandanna to try to look "gangsta" and wearing one so you can keep your hair out of your face and function. I think that, if a white person does actually put something on in the morning and think "oh sweet - this makes me look totally street! I'm all set to co-opt the plight of disenfranchised cultures!" that it's a very, very, very small percentage. Like I said, most people wear things because they saw 'em on the TV or in a mall.

Nobody I know gets all bent out of shape when I see black punks or hipsters, which by the post's logic I have every right to. That's OUR culture, damnitt! How dare they come into our suburbs and pretend to know what pointy patent leather flats mean! I should also note that the reason I even HAD the idea to put the bandanna in my back pocket is because every white hipster I know does it. It's anybody's guess where the trend came from, because as I said before, maybe the "ghettos" had it before the "hipsters," but the "cowboys" and "farmers" had it before anyone. I can show you shittons of pictures of my white as hell Iowa family with red bandannas hanging out their jeans, so if I got the idea from my great grandfather, am I still an ignorant piece of shit?

"If you truly don't care, you obviously have the privilege to put on your blinders again. I would suggest, though, when faced with your own ignorance, take that as an opportunity to learn something."

Right the fuck on.

http://stickyrice.itgo.com/whiteprivilege.html

"If you truly don't care, you obviously have the privilege to put on your blinders again. I would suggest, though, when faced with your own ignorance, take that as an opportunity to learn something."

Right the fuck on.

http://stickyrice.itgo.com/whiteprivilege.html

I think part of the reason people get a little riled up about this article is because the author is equating addresses/fashion/symbols directly with violence. This, to me, implies "you have it coming"; that violent reprisal is appropriate for someone moving into a neighborhood that's not "theirs." (The Klan thought so, too.) In fact, the author herself said she would have to stop visiting the coffee shop so she doesn't get into a fight. Doesn't exactly encourage thoughtful reflection -- more likely, "Fuck you, I'll wear a do-rag if I want to."

I guess it just goes to show how little attention I pay to fashion trends, since I didn't even know that "ghetto chic" was one.

(As an aside, I hate that term. Or anything else that involves fill-in-the-blank followed by chic.)

There was a time in my life that I was accused of being a part of gentrification (by a few people who knew nothing about me other than the apparent color of my skin). I was just living there because I was genuinely poor. It doesn't matter, though. I never held any resentment toward the people who assumed that. Sure, I didn't like being judged on appearances (though it was pretty obvious from the way I dressed that I wasn't rich), but I could absolutely understand why the people who made that snap judgment would be upset at wealthier people driving them out of their homes.

It wasn't a problem where I originally came from, though. Somehow rich kids just don't find rural trailer parks trendy. Imagine that.

And thanks for the support, Frog Queen, however, "don't be so goddamned touchy" might be a bit harsh. The post brings up an excellent point, one that I think exposes a lot of resentment (both just and unjust) that should be explored. I see both sides, and I think we're all just checking out different ideas. There's no need to trivialize their feelings because you don't agree with them. Discussion = good!

The only thing that Samhita wrote that really bugged me was how if the guy wearing the red bandana got shot, the media wouldn't address what he'd been wearing. I mean, even if the kid were wearing FUBU jeans and full on gang colors, he doesn't deserve to get shot. I know that's not what Samhita meant, but victims of ALL kinds of violence are so often blamed for it in the media that that sentiment made me uncomfortable.

They didn't come off as discussing. Apparently I was just wrong. Anyway, I'm sick of reading non-fem related things on this board. I think that pissed me off the most.

There's no need to trivialize their feelings because you don't agree with them. Discussion = good!

Exactly.

So is all cultural appropriation bad then?

I have studied Japanese culture fairly intensively: I've read the classical and modern literature, I speak the language, I've studied (and performed) their traditional theater. I love and respect the Japanese culture. I am not an otaku.

But, someone walking down the street seeing me in a kimono (should I decide to wear one), is allowed to accuse me of cultural appropriation because I'm white?

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm honestly curious. Is a Japanese-American person allowed to yell at me for taking away his or her culture? Am I forced to be an outsider to that culture forever simply based on my ethnicity?

The "hipster" is maybe the biggest strawman on the planet these days.

It generally means, "a young person I haven't spoken two words to, but I don't like."

I don't get the vitriol from some posters. If this issue isn't a big deal, then what's up? No one called you a "piece of shit," SoyMilk.

It doesn't take privilege to learn something that you don't know from your own travels. You could, y'know, ask. Like I said, if you're going to live in a neighborhood, it's a good idea to get to know your neighbors.

The punk analogy misses the point and I think you know that. There just isn't a corollary for colonization in white culture. When white folks co-opt cultural symbols, it usually signals the end of said culture. It doesn't work the other way around.

I understand that a lot of folks are sensitive about the idea that all white people are being judged and lumped into a category--I grew up working class, and I hated hearing about how white=privileged, because I sure as hell didn't feel it--but it can't hurt to listen before you get defensive, can it? There is a rule of thumb that gets floated around the feminist blogs for men on occasion, that if you feel defensive then maybe you have some soul-searching to do. I think that applies.

I do hate Vice, though, their bread-and-butter is knocking "hipsters" the same way this article does, actually.

Good read Samhita.

My bad I mixed up what Samhita said with what some of the comments said.

Samhita is mostly OTM.

I find myself agreeing with parts of this. Gentrification is obviously a problem in the U.S. It's fairly clear why those who can't afford to stay would resent it.

Similarly, "ghetto chic" well, maybe I'm too sheltered where I live but I'm not exposed to it much. Seems obnoxious, though.

But this?

To move into a community, uninformed, taking from it, not giving back and flaunting your expensive Ipod and "ghetto chic" accessories, is a form of violence

This is bullshit.

First of all, it degrades and devalues REAL violence. You know, the kind that involves someone getting actually hurt as opposed to annoyed enough to leave their coffee shop.

Second of all, it appears to justify violence. Which, on a blog that (appropriately) detests "victim blaming," is similarly questionable.

Third, while I don't know it for sure, I suspect more than a bit of hypocrisy there. After all, this is basically saying "you move in, you play by our rules, or you get hurt." So: does anyone who is saying "yeah, that's right" write on legal or illegal immigration? What's your take on how this applies to them? Does anyone write on the experiences of people who try to move OUT of their poor areas, into areas where they don't know the rules? Does this apply to them, too?

Otherwise, this seems like a rant. "Get the fuck away from that, it's MINE." And hey, if you want to live like that, go ahead. You can claim "ownership" of red bandannas, of whole communities, of types of music, of... And you can try to keep people from using "your" things, either by insulting them, accusing them of violence, or by setting intricate "rules" to be followed in order to use "your" items.

But you better not complain when it comes back at you. And, sadly, history suggests that it will.

Me? I prefer to share. What changed your mind?

If it's not okay for a white person to wear 'ghetto chic" fashion, is it okay for a non-chinese person to eat in a chinese restaurant? the food isn't much like that served in china.
American racial and ethnic subcultures have borrowed from each other from the beginning of our history. Black culture has always been fascinating to white hipsters, artists, music-lovers etc. And black culture is still here!

I think that, if a white person does actually put something on in the morning and think "oh sweet - this makes me look totally street! I'm all set to co-opt the plight of disenfranchised cultures!" that it's a very, very, very small percentage.

Sadly, I actually know a lot of people who have said almost exactly that. I go to a college where the population is predominantly white and richer than I'd even known existed until I got there. On top of people explicitly telling me how "different" I am from them (i.e. from a city, black, middle class but not wealthy, etc.) they *do* knowingly appropriate poorer urban cultures/images--and brag about the fact that they can! I know this is definitely *not* always the case, but I just wanted to put it out there that some people do actually know what they are doing when they pick a certain color bandanna, roll their pant leg up, etc. as something that they think is cool or funny.

One of my roommates this year had a party for the team she's on (it takes a little dough to be on that team, too) but decided not to tell me it was a costume party because she knew I'd be mad. I figured out the theme of the party when a white guy came to the door in a white tank with a bandanna, baseball cap AND doo-rag, a big fake gold chain, sagging pants and a forty-ounce of malt liquor. Then more & more people came in from the all white team in baggy baseball jerseys, sagging pants, bandannas--and finally someone admitted to me that it was a "thug" party. They all looked like the guys next door to me back in Chicago, except...not. They thought it was really funny, though, to dress up like 'thugs', because at the end of the day it's a costume they can take off and move on from.

And sadly I have so many more examples like this. The really scary thing is that it's a highly regarded (though no longer by me) school, and a lot of business and political leaders are alumni--these are the same jackasses that write public policy that affects all the rest of us!

This is about much more than fashion.

Since I started noticing the bright, neon-colored print hoodies popular amongst young black men in my neighborhood I’ve always thought they look cool. Multi-colored versions of the black hoodies that I normally associate with anarchist punks from my hometown, these hoodies seemed to be walking the thin line between the queer and the hyper masculine. Why on earth wouldn’t I want to buy one and engage (through fashion) in this complex dialogue?!?

So when I first read this article I resented that my desire for one of these hoodies was being labeled violence. After all, what’s wrong with wanting to buy something that I think looks good? I have that right. Who is anyone to say that this hoodie is ‘theirs’? How dare anyone deny me access to the things that I want?

But of course this resentment and line of though is deeply rooted in my white male privilege. And that’s where the connection between the cultural appropriation of fashion and oppression become linked together. Because this sense of entitled ownership doesn’t just end with neon printed hoodies – it extends to political, economic, and social resources, to public space, and even to the physical (and mental and spiritual) bodies of non-white & non-male persons.

Snappy Mac, I don't appreciate the assumption that I am not listening - we're all listening to each other and having a discussion.

Trevelynne, I agree with you. DELIBERATELY appropriating parts of another culture that you so obviously do not belong to is shitty. My point was not that people shouldn't be called on that, but that it IS possible that folks may be taking offense when the intention was completely different than what they assumed. Fashion CAN be a cultural signifier for some, and for others, it's just fashion. Everybody is going to interpret it differently, and that, to me, is ok. It is apparently not ok to you. I UNDERSTAND if someone is offended by a cultural/fashion misstep, but it'd be nice if they also considered the different possible intentions.

I think you really, really misunderstood me, and for someone that is so supportive of eradicating ignorance and embracing understanding of other people's cultures, you seem to have a very rigid way of seeing this debate.

And, as a few posters have suggested, nay, DEMANDED I do, I DID "learn" from my "cultural mistake," and you better believe I was happy to receive that information from who I now call my "subway angel." I won't ever wear my favorite bandanna again, and I officially felt like the dumbest person on the planet for about a week after that. I know, I know, boo fucking hoo, whitey.

I guess I better go back to the suburbs instead of living someplace else and TRYING to gain some cultural insight. When we stay in the 'burbs we're willingly ignorant with our "blinders" on, but when we move to "urban areas," we're the assholes who are trying to ruin someone else's community.

I am asking this in sincerity, as someone who really wishes there was some way to eradicate white privilege and the problems it creates for people of color, but who is probably coming off as a Klan member right now: Is there any place where white people can exist that it won't be pissing you off? Please don't think I'm trying to be an asshole - I understand that people have a legitimate right to be angry with white people in general, but I am genuinely curious as to what you wish we would do that would make this current situation better. You hate us in the suburbs, and you hate us in the city, so, uh...where should we go? This is my "soul searching," Snappy Mac. Anyone is welcome to lay it on me.

And Blucas, I couldn't agree more.

Honkifyoulike: that totally sucks. Since I don't know everybody on the planet, I probably shouldn't have attempted to understand their intentions either. Point taken - many probably do have craptastic intentions.

A few months ago I was sitting in a coffee shop in my neighborhood, a coffee shop I can no longer go to as I may fight somebody, and this white "hipster" boy sat down across from me wearing a red bandana tied on the front of his head, Tupac style. That's right, he was "GANGSTA." I am not laughing. I shot him the nastiest look and freaked him out so he didn't want to share the table with me, but I was raging inside.

I'm with you this time, Samhita. Nothing pisses me off more than seeing a black guy walk through my white neighborhood wearing a suit and tie. Leave my culture alone!

"Is there any place where white people can exist that it won't be pissing you off? "

I just wrote a blog entry on this exact same thing. Racism is racism. Why do people not realise that white people are descriminated against by all kinds of minorities? Or are we sapose to be like "oh well, it's okay cause I'm white" ? blah. depressing.

"It wasn't a problem where I originally came from, though. Somehow rich kids just don't find rural trailer parks trendy. Imagine that."

Well said, Lucy. I too, grew up in a trailer park. Albeit, a trailer park in California where the singlewides sell for 100k. But even there the rich kids scoff at the poorer kids' neighborhoods.

I also spent seven years in Las Vegas. I don't know if you know, but there's been sudden influx of New Yorkers in Vegas. They don't try to dress like Vegans* but they do mispronounce Nevada** and they go around whining about a "lack of culture," something I doubt they'd do in other working class cities like Denver or Detroit. (Remember, people create the culture. So if you want it, build it.)

So I sold my condo to a new Yorker and let 'em gentrify Paradise*** and took the money to move to New York. Hell, New York is THE iconoclastic melting pot. I thought I'd be welcomed. OK, not really.

But why, when I care barely afford it, do I feel like I'll be stealing if I choose to buy a home in Williamsburg? Why is this place, New York, the symbol of diversity, feel so fucking segregated?

*That's why you pronounce the word "vegan" (meaning strict vegetarian) veegan and not vaygan.

**It's Nev-ah!-da, not Nev-awe-da.

***City name for area in greater Las Vegas. You know The Strip is not in the City of Las Vegas, right? Anyway, Paradise is not a great neighborhood, but I hear it's up-and-coming ;)

"To move into a community, uninformed, taking from it, not giving back and flaunting your expensive Ipod and "ghetto chic" accessories, is a form of violence."

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but if a white person said the same thing of a black person moving into a white community wouldn't it be extremely racist?

I think part of the confusion here is that the post was sort of about 2 different topics that overlap. First is the issue of cultural appropriation and second is the issue of being an outsider/newcomer to an area and not respecting some of the sensitive issues that might exist in your new area of residence.

About the first issue: perhaps I am misreading the initial point, but I thought the problem was not about simple cultural appropriation, but the appropriation of a symbol wrought with race based, violent overtones. I actually have no problem with someone really liking another culture and emulating that (especially if they actually take the time to learn the language/actual culture they emulate).

For all I know the guy in her example really was some gangsta kid, but the point is that there is a subgenre of white kids who did not grow up in an impoverished area that are emulating and, in fact, glorifying a cultural symbol associated with misogyny and violence against non-white people. In the lectures I sometimes give at elementary schools there are always a few white “street talking� kids and I’m pretty sure when they put on their red bandana tied a certain way they are referencing some vague knowledge they have of the Bloods. I really do believe that they are saying to themselves “I’m a gangsta and being a gangsta is cool!�

Purposefully referencing gang warfare is bad enough when done by those involved but when some kid who has no experience with the actualities of what it means to grow up non-white or very poor glorifies a lifestyle that is based in real sexism and violence, it is more than just simple “I like the way this red look on me.�

About the insensitivity to other cultural symbols and such – when I travel, one of the first things I do is make sure I learn the basics. Some of the work I did was in Micronesia where bare breasts are the norm but the upper thigh of a woman is considered very taboo. Would I go live and work there and run around in a bikini because I can? No, because I understand that other people have feelings and that there are culturally sensitive issues. Is it ok for me to wear a gang color because, damn it, it’s a free country and anyone who is sensitive to that can go stuff it? What about the family members of the person killed by the gang you’re unknowingly supporting.

Finally, I very much doubt that some random white person walking down the street with a red bandana holding back her hair would be mistaken for a gang member. But when you get all Tupac with your red bandana you’re pretty clearly signaling something and if you don’t know that then hopefully one of the nice neighbors that you have befriended will tell you. Of course you don’t “deserve it� if you get killed for accidentally wearing anything of any color, but if you keep wearing your red Tupac bandana even when you know just cause you damn well think you have the right to, then there is some privilege somewhere that needs to be checked.

i agree with some of the sentiments, but the violence thing. . . i don't know. i have a relatively low sense of humor around this word because i have experienced actual violence as a "gentrifier" before and i can't say i walked away from it feeling i deserved it. i think most people of all classes and colors should take a deeper look at the politics behind this sort of thing, but violence, threatened or imaginary, just tends to make people more reactionary and less open-minded.

Re: cultural appropriation

It probably should be pointed out that sampling of pop songs in rap albums is very much appropriation. The reality is that we all live together, and that we should be thinking about each other and acknowledging each other.

There is also a certain irony in this, in that Tupac had a number of looks, including the preppie, striped long sleeved shirt with two-level high-top fade in his days as a back-up dancer and pinch-hit rapper for Digital Underground.

Look, we all know wack when we see it. And look on the bright side: maybe some increased property taxes for inner-city school systems (devastated by white flight) isn't the worst thing in the world.

Rin -
I'm also very interested in Japanese culture, and have read a lot about it. Among other things, I'm fascinated by traditional Japanese clothing. I've purchased books and researched how much of it was/is made. I love looking at pictures of antique kimono. I even own a haori, myself. But I would never stroll around in Japan wearing it, unless for some reason I was specifically instructed to do so by a native. I might wear it in the company of Japanese friends who knew me well enough to know I'm not just co-opting their culture because it looks "cool," but that's about it.
Am I allowed to wear my haori around Japan if I want to? Sure. But since I'm aware that by doing so I may be effectively hanging a sign around my neck that reads "stupid gaijin" to people of Japanese descent who don't know me personally, I'd opt not to. I prefer to avoid making complete strangers think I'm a jerk, so as much as I love it, I'd leave the haori at home.

I can understand where people are coming from when they wrestle with whether or not it's "okay" for them to adopt a style of dress they admire. Even if they educate themselves extensively about its background and origins, there's no way a casual observer can know that. So when does a person earn the "right" to wear style X?

When I got into goth about a decade ago, it was the music that drew me in. While I knew goths wore a lot of black, I didn't feel I had the right to do so myself until I'd learned a fair bit about the music that spawned it. The style of dress, to me, wasn't so much about looking "cool" as it was a way of identifying my tastes in music to others who might have similar tastes. It was a signal to other goths that we had something to talk about that we couldn't discuss with someone who listened to more mainstream music. Thus, it was vastly annoying to run into people who clearly spent a lot of time shopping at Hot Topic, but had never bothered to learn the names of (let alone actually listen to) even the most well-known goth bands. Because they were, through their appropriation of the style, effectively masquerading as something they weren't.
Now, in the case of goth (or punk, or any other music genre that has an style of dress associated with it) the "poser" problem can be rectified just by taking the time to learn more about the music. But when it's a style that's connected in some way with a culture or race, it gets more dodgy. No matter how much I learn about Japanese culture, I will never be Japanese. Therefore, if I appropriate traditional Japanese dress, I am dooming myself to perpetual poserville. Since I try to be respectful of others' feelings, I consider this something to avoid.

Just my opinion on the subject. Your opinion may vary.

"I thought the problem was not about simple cultural appropriation, but the appropriation of a symbol wrought with race based, violent overtones. I actually have no problem with someone really liking another culture and emulating that (especially if they actually take the time to learn the language/actual culture they emulate)."

Well said. That was my impression as well. It's one thing to admire another culture and learn about it and appreciate it. That's great and should (in my opinion) be encouraged. It's quite another to use symbols of violence from said culture, especially mockingly.

Is discrimination/violence against someone of any skin color ever okay? Of course not. I don't think anyone was really advocating that, were they?

As an aside, Elaine, I am originally from Oregon and I feel your pain on the whole how to say Nevada issue. ;)

The punk analogy misses the point and I think you know that.

Indeed. The other reason the punk analogy doesn't work is that black people, such as Don Letts, were pretty integral to the genesis of punk.

I also believe bandannas were originally made popular by Western cowboys, but nobody wrote an angry blog when rappers started wearing them. Just saying.

They were also worn by my Grandpa Ted when he conducted large steam engines in Michigan.

My mom also wore red (and other color) bandanas, since they reminded her of her dad. She continued to wear them to help conceal the large squamous cell tumor that eventually ended her life. They were both wearing bandanas long before these kids were conceived.

So, if I wore a red bandana in menory of both, I suppose that would make me an asshole. WHATEVS.

I never thought I'd say this, but I'm getting tired of people complaining about gentrification. The more I think about it, the more I truly believe that the initiative taken by anyone to travel, live, and educate themselves outside their birthplace outweighs the chance they might inadvertently cause a population shift. If we want to make good on all the "global community" crap we live to believe, it's time to get along.

How about focusing on true injustices here? This is crazy.

It's not a question of "getting along"--it's a question of over and over again transforming neighborhoods in such a way that the original population can no longer afford to live there. And yes, those of us who are the original population resent the hell out of it.

I don't remember the exact details, but I remember seeing an Appalshop documentary a while back about figurative violence being responded to with literal violence. It concerned a man in Appalachia and a French-Canadian filmmaker. There is a long history of photography being used to caricature, marginalize and dehumanize people in Appalachia, and which has had understandably caused a lot of justified resentment of outsiders looking through a camera lens. Although this is different than Samhita's example above, I think it is a similar or equivalent kind of "violence" to the sort of appropriation she's talking about.

Long story short, the man whom the Canadian filmmaker was filming shot him dead rather than be subjected to what he perceived as a humiliation.

Abstractly, you can look at this and see some degree of justification for the killer's actions... there was a bitter history to what the filmmaker was participating in; a context of which he may not have been entirely aware. On the other hand, any self-aware Appalachian should be able to tell you that there's a pretty vicious tendency towards othering outsiders in the region, whether justified, or just as often not justified.

So while Samhita did not kill the do-rag wearer (quite the contrary, she went out of her way to defuse her anger), I think there's always a question of how much antagonism towards outsiders is a reasonable reaction to problematic behavior, and how much is straight-up bigotry.

I just remembered what I think might be a better comparison – my freshman year of college I was Marxist rebel girl and had a Chairman Mao t-shirt that I wore all the time. That is, until an elderly woman approached me on the bus and said point blank (and more nicely than I probably would have) “Mao killed my entire family.� That was it, no rant, no angry words, just a statement.
I can assure you I turned around, went home, and took the shirt off directly into the trash and then went to the library to read what Mao actually did (back in the day before the internets). I honestly didn’t know, I thought I was being cool. BUT, when I figured out what the symbolic import of Mao was to some people I got rid of it because he was, to some, a symbol of mass violence and death. That shirt was very different than my poser kanji shirt that I think said “love� but probably said “doesn’t read Kanji� or something.

Jane Minty, I gotta call you out on this. You think we should focus on "true injustices"? So when white privilege is used against people of color, that isn't a "true injustices"? Cultural appropriation isn't a "true injustice"? The opinions of various people of color on an issue near and dear to them just don't matter because it isn't a "true injustice"? The fact that poor brown people are being fetishized by not-poor whites who want to wear their clothes but not actually listen to their concerns or change their circumstances just isn't a "true injustice"? You're just expecting all the poor people of color in the world to unite behind your vision of "global community" and deny that the injustices they perceive as being true are real?

I have to call bullshit on all that. As I think the comments here have proven, there are a LOT of people who have been victimized by this kind of behavior. Maybe you should be less defensive and actually LISTEN to what people are saying here. Trust me, it won't kill you to check your knee-jerk attitude, read, and learn a little.

Story time: a year ago I bought a gorgeous little house in what I called an "abandoned" neighborhood. The middle class left Baltimore in droves over the last several years due to drugs and crime, and my new house was one of a few on my street that went unoccupied for quite a while. I thought gentrification was wrong, but my buying this house was supercool of me--I was a pioneer, a brave soul coming in with my youth and my little bit of cash to bring vibrancy back to this street.

Except that my abandoned neighborhood wasn't abandoned. It was populated by low-income renters and a few stubborn holdout homeowners, POC all. By the time that I, and other kids my age and income level, bought up those empty houses, we'd brought enough cash and bougie taste into the area to run out several family-owned businesses (skyrocketing rent). Chomping to get the rest of the renters off our street so that they could finally sell those houses, landlords raised rents and started evicting my neighbors. Have you ever seen an eviction? I have now. It happens before dawn, so that you're caught unaware and the police wake up the whole neighborhood, so that they all come to their front stoops to watch you pack up your stuff and plead for one more thing before the door gets boarded up and you go...somewhere.

So this idea that walking around flashing privilege and cultural appropriation can't be violence because no one gets hurt is bullshit. I've seen families evicted and their livelihoods lost. That isn't bodily harm, but isn't that just as devastating? I know that my white iPod-toting self doesn't mean anything in my old neighborhoods and the streets where I usually go, but in my chosen neighborhood, I'm a symbol and a threat. And rather than get defensive about it and rail about how unfair it is since they don't know me and reverse racism and all that, I'm really starting to get it. I moved into my house because I could, because it would bring so much good to me. I was completely ignorant about the effect it would have on the neighborhood. And now people who aren't me are paying for that. In fact, I'll live in (and get tax breaks from) property that's exponentially growing in value, see "better" shopping pop up in those old storefronts, and reap the benefits of living in a privileged community that will be more likely to get city government's attention when we need work done and get preferential treatment from companies (no more rolling brownouts during the electric company's "conservation" week that oddly never affects the wealthier neighborhoods...). It's bizarre to me that in the face of tremendous privilege, some people still get miffed over the loss of their option to wear a bandanna. This post isn't even asking people not to gentrify neighborhoods, just to exercise a little restraint and sensitivity when flashing around privilege.

Part of my family lives in their "original" town of birth. The rest of us escaped. I was dragged around from place to place as a kid...even though we were poor, I'm sure some rednecks always thought of us as "outsiders." Know what? It made me a better person.

While I don't hold it against anyone to stay in one place for their lifetime, don't penalize those of us who choose differently. I agree it blows when a few people are pushed out due to such circumstances, but then again it was much easier to retain your residence when people were less traveled. Even then, population shifts occurred.

Yup, I happened to live in the Midwest for part of my life. I'm not ashamed, and I resent the implication that anyone who didn't grow up in a gritty urban area is less culturally sensitive than those who did. I've actually met a few very close-minded people from the 5 boroughs...are they by default more culturally sensitive than I am due to their birthplace?

If yuppies & hipsters want to ignore, resent or tire of gentrification's decriers, why shouldn't they? I only hope they don't mind the locals ignoring, resenting or tiring or them--OH, WAIT. I forgot: the locals won't be able to afford to stay there to do so. Naw, no injustice there at all!

*sigh* I'm just gonna come out and say it. I think this article is racists. Furthermore, I'm actually offended that some of the comments on here are borederline racists. Can someone just tell me why it's okay to be racists at white people? Cause I don't get it. Frankly, I'm getting tired of trying to understand it. If someone can explain it to me in a non-condescending way, I'd totally appreciate it.

While I don't hold it against anyone to stay in one place for their lifetime, don't penalize those of us who choose differently.

So, who's penalizing you? Complaining and taking collective action to protect our communities is somehow penalizing you?

I agree it blows when a few people are pushed out due to such circumstances

We're not talking about "a few people"; we're talking about entire communities. The entire character of my neighborhood changed in the years it took me to grow up. It went from being a place with a mixture of bohemians and working-class families with a variety of local shops such as baby-supply shops, hardware stores, etc. to being a theme park where rich kids puked on the sidewalk and every other storefront was a bar that charged ten bucks for a glass of wine, and double-decker tour buses went by twice an hour. This wasn't some kind of population shift of the sort that generally happens with succeeding emigration waves. It was dictated by the rich and supported by city policy--if you're interested, you can read about a previous effort to gentrify the neighborhood that had been succesfully resisted in Janet Abu-Lughod's From Urban Village to East Village.

I resent the implication that anyone who didn't grow up in a gritty urban area is less culturally sensitive than those who did. I've actually met a few very close-minded people from the 5 boroughs...are they by default more culturally sensitive than I am due to their birthplace?

No, but they're probably far more aware of and attuned to the cultural symbols, shifts, and significances of their city than you are. Plunk me down in a small town in the Midwest, and I'd have no idea how to read the street. It works the other way round, as well.

And, mercuria? WORD.

I live in a community that's being heavily gentrified. I moved here about three years ago, because it was surprisingly inexpensive to rent a place here, and I move wherever I can afford, which doesn't include a whole lot of places, I'm afraid.

Now, there are condos being sold for half a million dollars just down the street from my tiny apartment. Higher-scale shops are moving in, and old, beautiful houses are being torn down to make way for cheesey, slapped together condos that don't match the existing look or feel of the community.

I'm probably perceived as part of gentrification, but I don't feel like that's accurate. In fact, I don't think it's fair to hold individual people responsible for gentrification when it's profit-driven developers and franchisers that buy up real estate and REALLY push people out. A lot of people, like recent college grads, just move where it's cheap, they settle in, and then some marketing genius spots a trend and realizes the community could support a successful Urban Outfitters or two. The city governments should be held accountable, too. The zoning and rezoning in some areas is insane.

I agree, Jenny. When I move back, I will undoubtedly be taking up residence in a neighborhood new to me, and I might end up being an element of gentrification, whether I like it or no. But I sure don't expect the people who live in that neighborhood already to like me.

I already posted it once in this thread, but dammit if I'm not gonna post it again, especially for those commenters who are feeling offending that no one cares about the "racism" against whites:

http://stickyrice.itgo.com/whiteprivilege.html

(White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Backpack, By Peggy McIntosh) It's a really great essay on privilege for white feminists to read, and a lot of what she brings up pertains to the specific issue of this thread AND the sort of snotty attitude I'm seeing throughout the thread. I feel like some people, subconcious or not, are just plain RUDER on certain threads that deal with POC issues.

Also, snappy mac--do you live outside of Hampden by any chance? I went to school outside of B-more and spent a summer living on St. Paul (which I understand now has a Chipotle? WTF?!)

Look, frog queen, I'm just going to straight up tell you that all of your posts sound like "boo hoo hoo, why is everyone so mean to white people when we try REALLY hard? We have it tough, too!!!"

I don't know what you're trying to say. But that's what's coming out. And that sentiment is bullshit, it smacks of privilege, it's racist and it's absolutely NO DIFFERENT than when a man comes on this board while we're talking about domestic violence and says "what about men who are abused?" or when we're talking about rape and he says "what about men who are raped?" as if that's some kind of EXCUSE to be a misogynist. It's pissing me off A LOT and I'm sure that I'm not the only one. I'm white. I don't necessarily agree with everything in this post, either. But because I don't know anything about being a woman of color in this situation, I'm keeping my damn mouth shut. You should probably do yourself a favor and try it.

Yeah, the people who are complaining about racism against whites need to have the power dynamic explained to them again. Samhita didn't say anything that was racist against whites, anyway, and even if she had, it wouldn't have the same impact as what Raging Moderate used as an example.

bettieclem, I'm in Patterson Park. St. Paul does indeed have a Chipotle, and you can't swing a cat without hitting a Subway sandwich shop.

Frog Queen, I think I might know you from another board. If it's you, you sent me really nice email once during a tough time. /end hijack.

Are we really defending the idea that whites shouldn't wear "black" clothing?

How about immigrants who wear western clothing? Are they appropriating white culture and doing us violence?

Raging Moderate--You are not getting it. Listen more and talk less.

How dare you talk about the experience of immigrating, the pain of forced assimilation and even begin to talk about it as violence against whites.

Seriously, or I am going to ban you.

It is not white privilege to note that opposition to gentrification which boil down to "keep the whites out," and racist actions taken to prevent "undesirables" from moving to "white" areas, are opposite sides of the same coin.

It is not privilege to note that ragging on a white guy for wearing a bandanna, listening to rap music, and/or "dressing like a black guy;" and ragging on a black guy for wearing a business suit, listening to classical music, and working in an investment bank are opposite sides of the same argument.

And you know what?

Just because the arguments happen to be made by a person of ___ race doesn't make them any more valid. Those arguments are bullshit when a white uses them to discriminate. And they are still bullshit when a POC uses them, either against a white person, or against another minority.

Don't call them "racist" if you don't want to. But take a long hard look at what you're really saying, and what types of interactions you're really supporting, by this post.

So, you think affecting "communities" is a dirty word? Do you still feel that way when the community is rich, or white? Is it just as bad to open a minority-owned store or restaurant which carries products designed to appeal to POC in a lilywhite area, as it is to open a white-owned store or restaurant in a nonwhite community?

I know many fine New England communities that have transitioned from lilywhite enclaves to multicultural areas. Kudos to them. I support the rights of people to move where they want; build restaurants where they want; go to the schools they want. Christ, if someone would tear down a local fish and chips joint and build a Malaysian restaurant I'd jump for joy.

But the reverse is true too.

Sailorman, you are working under the extremely mistaken assumption that white people and people of color are starting out at the same level in this country. They are not. People of color have systematically been discriminated against for centuries by white people in this country. It is in fact privilege to compare oppressed communities who seek solace in each other through shared culture and experience and feel rightfully defensive toward outsiders to the segregation that whites used to legally impose and still informally practice to this day.

Raging Moderate--You are not getting it.

That's true. I don't see how white guys dressing like rappers is insulting or oppressive.

How dare you talk about the experience of immigrating, the pain of forced assimilation and even begin to talk about it as violence against whites.

I never said anything about forced assimilation, so I don't understand your point. Unless you believe that all immigrants who adopt western styles are being forced to.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you participate in the trends, art and fashions of others, you're "appropriating" or "selling out," both meant equally derogatorily. If you keep to your own, you're "racist," "segregationist" or "privileged." Good luck!

Besides the obvious reasons to hate gentrification because it forces low-income and often people of color out of their own communities, it does also suck for a lot of low to middle class white people, too. Bear with me now, before you set me on fire, but let's face it: even the middle is struggling in NYC. Middle class white people have two options: live in a gentrified area, feel relatively safe, but scrape to get by because the rent is outside their means, or move into a less expensive, less safe area, where they will likely encounter some not so fun stuff, for whatever reasons (but probably because of their race), from the community. This may be totally out there, but I have the feeling that a person of color, no matter how much money they do or don't have, can walk in way more places in NYC and not feel like they're going to get robbed. I am, however, also aware, that the same said person can walk into a fancy shmancy store and will probably be followed around like they're going to steal something - which isn't right either. I've actually had black people tell me "don't go to ____ unless you have a n***** (their words, not mine) with you." This leads me to believe that I'm not just imagining things, that being white literally makes you a target in some areas. According to some of the comments on this thread, that is A-OK.

As another poster stated, no matter what your skin color and what neighborhood you've dared to "invade," violence against an individual because they're seen as a "gentrifier" is way fucked. People on this thread are coming very, very close to condoning threatening or violent behavior towards people that they believe deserve it because they are just bursting with white privilege. It's a little scary.

I like Jenny's first post on holding the people who are doing the developing accountable. Don't blame a couple of white kids who moved into a "bad area" because that's the only place they can afford.

I can't really afford the rent in gentrified areas, but I live in them anyway. You can't put a price on your personal security and safety. Apparently this totally makes me part of the problem, but I don't see anybody volunteering to walk me home every night.

I think a lot of this debate is really more about the system vs. the individual. I hate patriarchy, but I am not resentful of every man I come across just because they're inadvertently part of that system - some men, in fact, fight to destroy patriarchy. I get that no matter what, I'm white and therefore part of "whitey," the system, the man, and I have to take responsibility for that, but I, and every other white person I know (because I am not friends with assholes) would destroy white privilege in a heartbeat if we had that power, because we know it's wrong.

This is really going to make some of you hate me, but just like patriarchy is harmful to men (to a much lesser degree than women, but it still is), racism can negatively affect white people too - obviously not to the disenfranchising degree that it has people of color, but it does affect us. The system "hurts" EVERYBODY - it sure doesn't hurt everybody equally, but I don't understand why some people think that I shouldn't even be allowed to even participate in this conversation because of my inherent race. I am certainly not trying to minimize ANYBODY'S experiences, and I'd appreciate the same respect from others.

And as for the idea that nobody is appropriating white trash trailer park culture (this was mentioned quite a few comments ago)...BULL FUCKING SHIT. Two words: Trucker Caps (which I believe quite a few black people wore as well). Have you ever been to Southern California? Social Distortion pretty much made it a requirement that EVERYONE looks like they stepped out of their double-wide.

Samhita, great post. But these comments reek of bullshit, and the stench of white privilege is burning my eyes. I'm gone.

And people wonder why WOCs blast on Feministing?

I agree, Malaika. There are some genuine critiques of this post, but there is also a LOT of racism here, and it's disgusting.

If yuppies & hipsters want to ignore, resent or tire of gentrification's decriers, why shouldn't they?

Feel free to continue making sweeping generalizations about who I am as a person. That's very mature.

So, who's penalizing you? Complaining and taking collective action to protect our communities is somehow penalizing you?

No, but as was mentioned some of you are putting blame on the individual who just wants to live in a reasonably-priced neighborhood that might offer a different perspective than what the person is accustomed to. Perhaps we should all just stay exactly where we were born.

It went from being a place with a mixture of bohemians and working-class families with a variety of local shops such as baby-supply shops, hardware stores, etc. to being a theme park where rich kids puked on the sidewalk and every other storefront was a bar that charged ten bucks for a glass of wine, and double-decker tour buses went by twice an hour.

The old Italian American lady in my Greenpoint building (who grew up in the neighborhood) complained that the Puerto Ricans "ruined" the neighborhood in the '50s. It's all context...places like NYC have always changed. As far as recent gentrification, blame rezoning. Want your kids to grow up in a place that never changes? I'll show you some lovely communities in scenic upper Michigan.

No, but they're probably far more aware of and attuned to the cultural symbols, shifts, and significances of their city than you are.

So what's your point? Being attuned to your neighborhood doesn't excuse small-mindedness.

Jane Minty, I gotta call you out on this. You think we should focus on "true injustices"? So when white privilege is used against people of color, that isn't a "true injustices"? Cultural appropriation isn't a "true injustice"? The opinions of various people of color on an issue near and dear to them just don't matter because it isn't a "true injustice"? The fact that poor brown people are being fetishized by not-poor whites who want to wear their clothes but not actually listen to their concerns or change their circumstances just isn't a "true injustice"? You're just expecting all the poor people of color in the world to unite behind your vision of "global community" and deny that the injustices they perceive as being true are real?

I don't even know where to begin with this one. Where did I say anything about white people? Jesus H. Christ on a cracker (pun intended), do you think gentrification only affects anyone not of caucasian origian?

Um, fashion? We've all been stealing frome each other throughout history, and combining it with new ideas. Wearing aforementioned red handkerchief doesn't make me an asshole (but I'll pass on the "Dorf on Golf" pants - no one looks sexy in gigantic trousers, period). Holy crap, I can't believe you would equate attire with lack of concern for the plight of a group of people, period.

The same can be said for you - it doesn't matter what personal hardships I may have endured over the years, it's never "valid" enough. I would never claim "reverse racism" but damn, why can't you look beyond my skin color as well in evaluating my opinion?

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I have no respect for your background; kindly extend the same courtesy.

I guess I'm just really disappointed at all the assumptions some of you are making. It's becoming a pissing match of "my people are more disadvantaged than you are." I'm insulted any of you would resort to making light of my own background to get your point across.

Also, it is a class issue as well. If a white boy is actually in a gang his wearing a red bandana would be different than someone that is doing it for irony's sake.

We are talking about systems of oppression that treat different groups in different ways. It is not that just wearing it is wrong. It is coupled with being the privileged group in an urban area that doesn't have to deal with actually living in the violent system that makes bandanas a cultural signifier.

"Ghetto chic" is huge, it is everywhere. The popularization of hip-hop has affected style, music, art, food, everything. That in and of itself is not inherently bad. But have the "ghettos" become a better place to be. Have the same problems that affect poor, urban youth, disappeared. No.

OK, I am not articulate right now, but these responses are jarring. I know it is hard to understand why white people aren't allowed to do whatever they want, since our culture assumes that white people are entitled to whatever they want without consequences.

Perhaps some white privilege 101?

Wow, just...wow.

I'm really getting the feeling, from the tenor of these comments, that some of the commenters here never actually interacted with POC, or, more specifically to this thread, low-income POC living in urban areas of concentrated poverty. And it sounds like some folks (EG, snappy mackerel, Jenny Dreadful, and others) have done so, yet are being unheard and/or discounted by what sounds like shrill, white men threatened by the idea that the world is not a big shiny coin with clear and equal situations etched on either side.

And I'm on a *feminist* site? ::blinks eyes, slinks away from the internets::

The old Italian American lady in my Greenpoint building (who grew up in the neighborhood) complained that the Puerto Ricans "ruined" the neighborhood in the '50s.

Yeah, well, clearly the Puerto Ricans didn't force out the old Italian lady, did they? You honestly don't see a difference between racism against a group occupying the very same socio-economic niche one's own group did when they moved in, and a massive socio-economic shift that turfs people out against their will? When Puerto Ricans moved into what had previously been Italian neighborhoods, it was because the Italians in question had moved out, usually moving up in the world from immigrant routes, to make a vast generalization. The Puerto Ricans took over that immigrant niche, as well as becoming the target of very similar bigotries as had been directed at the Italians (they're swarthy, smell like garlic/strange spices, are loud, wear bright colors, are violent, won't learn our language, etc.). You really don't see the difference between that and people from up the socio-economic scale moving in and driving prices up to the extent that previous denizens are forced out? The history of immigration waves to the city is a very different beast than the maneuverings of rich people taking over the neighborhoods of the poor.

So what's your point? Being attuned to your neighborhood doesn't excuse small-mindedness.

Many of these comments have been about how it is possible to know the cultural significance of one's fashion choices in a new environment. You asked whether being from NYC made people less racist. My point was that it makes them less ignorant about what certain symbols mean, which had been being discussed earlier.

places like NYC have always changed. As far as recent gentrification, blame rezoning. Want your kids to grow up in a place that never changes? I'll show you some lovely communities in scenic upper Michigan.

Gee, thanks. It's not like I know anything about the history of NYC. I'm so glad to be taught about how it's always "changing." Right. And some changes are better than others. Working-class NYers have always fought the changes that screwed them over. I have a pretty good handle on the forces that drive gentrification, thanks. Further, you seem to be arguing that objecting to a certain kind of change is the same as objecting change in general. It's not. I object to gentrification--that's not the same as wanting to freeze time. Though your casual dismissal of the culture I grew up in as somehow being the same as what I could find in scenic upper Michigan is pretty telling about how little respect you have for what is lost in the process of gentrification.

I tell you what really gets up my nose: when out-of-towners move to NYC and assume that because their roots are elsewhere and hey, the city's always changing, that they don't have to respect or acknowledge the fact that many people have strong roots in the actual city. It's not a goddamned theme park.

I still fail to see how disliking someone is "penalizing" them.

Samhita, great post. But these comments reek of bullshit, and the stench of white privilege is burning my eyes. I'm gone.

And people wonder why WOCs blast on Feministing?

Stench of white privilege? Can you cite examples? I'm not trying to be a smartass, but what are we supposed to say and how do we act to keep peace in a community? I think it's safe to assume all of us here are enlightened enough to respect and explore diversity...it just has to go both ways.

This whole argument just wears me the fuck out. I honestly feel like some people aren't happy with anything.

You know I know it is really controversial that I am letting some of these comments stay, but I think it is important to see what we are working with.

It is profound, but I don't mind being reminded that some people completely and totally don't understand what white privilege is.

TheSoyMilkConspiracy--I am hearing what you are saying. I think it is a system verse individual thing. I don't hate every "hipster," in some circles I am one
and I certainly DO NOT condone violence against people who move into these neighborhoods. But to wear a red bandana in a neighborhood that has gang problems is rude and insensitive.

But the bigger systemic issues cannot be ignored. No one can afford rent these days.

Great post, Samhita. Having just moved out of the hipster/gentrification mecca of Williamsburg, Brooklyn and having grown up in LIC, Queens (next on the gentrification hit list), this one is close to my heart.

It's kind of freaking me out how many people are missing the point. Samhita isn't saying certain folks can't wear certain clothes. Shit, she's certainly seen pics of me during my Cross Colors phase back in junior high.

What we're talking about hear is the appropriation of cultural symbols as fucking irony--as a joke. Like the Kill Whitey parties, the idea is that these folks think are making jokes and ironic fashion statements under the frame of racism being "over" or them being "passed racism" as Samhita said. And--hello--they're not the fucking people who get to decide that shit. It's like the whole hipster scarf thing; I find it incredibly irritating. And I think the major issue I have with folks using symbols like this and claiming it's for irony's sake, it's that you'd be hard pressed to find someone taking part in this who could has actually put any political thought into it whatsoever. Sorry for the ramble, just my two cents.

Seriously, or I am going to ban you.
Awesome. Really? You'll ban Raging Moderate because s/he doesn't "get it"? And because s/he apparently does not necessarily equate "immigration" with "forced assimilation" (which I am not in the slightest disputing happens, but also undisputedly is unjustified as a blanket assumption). That's disappointing, to say the least, Samhita.

I appreciate the link to the Racialicious post. Really well-written and thought-provoking. And some of the examples she uses are new to me--for example, I remember wearing door knocker earrings growing up in the Midwest in the late 80s and early 90s, waaaaay before hip hop had permeated into that area, so I never would have thought to associate them with "ghetto chic". In fact, I'm still not sure I buy that they are inherently and uniquely a marker of the communities she's talking about because it's contrary to my own personal experience, but it's something to think about, and I like having things to think about.

But Samhita's not the writer Wendi Muse is, and her post was all heat, no light. I'm all for blowing off steam, but let's not lose sight of the fact that her primary anecdote revolves around a set of on-sight snap judgments she made about a guy who briefly shared a table--not even words, just a table!--with her at a local coffee shop. She made judgments (or, more accurately assumptions), about where he grew up, how wealthy he was, what his racial background was, whether he "gives anything back" to the local community, etc., ad nauseum. And then she decided never to go back to that coffee shop because on the basis of these bare assumptions, she might have to beat up this guy--probably hyperbole, but definitely because it caused her to become so angry she just can't stand it.

Please, let's talk about gentrification and cultural appropriation and race and class and privilege, oh my! Let's talk about how disgusting it is to feed symbols of violence and poverty through the marketing machine and then sell the output as a cute, stylish product. And let's talk about what maybe ought to be happening to stop that process. But look, people are going to call bullshit on this post because the arguments are weak--just because the writer is a POC doesn't mean she gets to assume whatever she likes about whomever she comes into contact with, with total progressive-politics immunity. She doesn't get to be judgmental about this guy and everything about his past, present and future, and then chalk it up to righteous indignation without a few people suggesting that doing so perhaps doesn't pass the smell test.

i could also put in, there is a difference between being angry about oppression and resenting someone else's privilege, and just being downright uncivil. i think people have the right to organize, resist, protest construction, etc. but just being nasty and threatening to people you have never met because they have more privilege and have moved into your neighborhood is hardly fair. i am angry about people having more gender and economic privilege than me, but i don't attack people with said privilege if they are just going about their business.

i would have found the above statement ignorant a few years ago but after someone threatening to rape me on the S train because of my race, i have taken a very different view of it all. i should add, none of the women said anything or tried to help me in any way. and yeah, i'm sure i probably have taken a very cheap apartment from someone who was born in that neighborhood, and i know i don't give much back to the neighborhood except spend money, but that's fucked---and that's nothing compared to what my gay friend got. . .

if people have some opposing opinion or ideas of how i should re-orient myself on this matter i would be open to it, but i never really have heard an anti-gentrification "they don't have to like you"-type argument that can really sway my mind.

I don't see why you have to re-orient yourself, m. It's disgusting that a man threatened to rape you, and it's disgusting that your friend was gay-bashed. Not liking someone is not the same as doing either of those things. I hope you and your friend called the cops, because both of those things are a lot worse than just being uncivil. You don't have the right to expect people to like you, but you certainly have the right to live in safety.

Bettie, honestly, I think EVERYBODY on this thread is being "unheard" and "discounted." Raise your hand if you feel as if your point of view has been understood or respected. Yeah.

Just like the world is not a black and white, double sided coin, there is quite a bit of room between being "racist," (which a number of us, myself included, have been called) and simply just trying to understand or have a discussion. I can't speak for everybody, but all I'm trying to do is learn more about, discuss, and debate a point that affects all of us, and do it without being mocked or insulted in a completely condescending "you don't know what the fuck you're talking about" way, which isn't happening. This is undoubtedly a frustrating topic and people are getting agitated, but it'd be nice if we could keep it educational instead of seeing who can out-scoff each other.

And Samhita, regarding your most recent comment. No, wearing my red bandanna out of my pocket was not "rude and insensitive." It WAS stupid, but it wasn't a deliberate "fuck you" to the community (although I understand how someone would see it that way if they didn't know the backstory behind it, which you did). It WOULD be "rude and insensitive" of me to CONTINUE wearing it, after learning of its meaning, which I haven't. The idea that you'd call me "rude" for doing something in complete and total innocence kind of sucks. I'll say it again: I'm sorry for being an idiot and not knowing what certain cultural symbols mean, and I certainly believe it is not OK to co-opt something that's integral to a community's culture as a shitty, not even really funny, joke, as Jessica said.

kmg--I don't deny I am being a hater. You are right that I don't actually know anything about the guy except that he is ignorant to wear a known gang signifier in a community that is struggling against gang problems.

I am a writer, so work with me here, I am looking at the politics of representation.

Your "just because she is a POC" comment is cute though. It is clear you won't listen to me if I am or if I am not so I see, it really doesn't make a difference that I am.

Samhita, I honestly don't care if you choose to delete my comments. I just feel personally attacked if I make a comment, and my own race/background is used against me.

You need to see that using "white privilege" as a blanket term might be offensive to some of us who want to be recognized by our own individual backgrounds (and happen to be caucasian). I'm not ashamed of who I am (even if I do retain a winter pallor year-round). To me the usage implies that I'm evil by default, and nothing I'll ever do will make a difference.

EG, I'm rather disappointed at your personal attacks. I've lived here 14 years, longer than any other place. Like it or not, I'm here to stay. I've poured plenty of energy into local activism...but again, since I'm not a "native" I'll just never understand.

Just so you're clear, the lady in my building made the Puerto Rican comments, not me. In an above post you defended people like her, saying they were "less ignorant about what certain symbols mean."

People of all backgrounds are constantly moving to NYC (as you have indeed confirmed). Who is anyone to determine what kind of immigrant is good vs. bad? Is this all based on socioeconomic factors? Is the Brazilian trust-funder more of a valuable contribution to our landscape than the dirt poor professor from North Carolina? Again, I'm not trying to be an asshole but I think some of you are really jumping to conclusions.

You can go ahead and dislike people for moving into the neighborhood. This is nothing new, no matter where you go. I just prefer to see people individually. They personally have nothing to do with my rent...my Polish immigrant landlord determines this, as well as the city of New York through zoning laws.

Frog Queen: Since you asked for a non-condescending explanation, I'll do my best. I honestly don't think anyone is saying it's "okay" to discriminate against people of any color, any more than they would advocate raping or abusing men.

I mentioned earlier that in the past I experienced some people reacting negatively to me and assuming I was wealthy (and thus a part of the gentrification going on in that particular neighborhood) due to my skin color. I also said that I could understand why it happened. It doesn't mean it didn't sting at the time. Especially since I was doing volunteer work to try to make the community a better place for those already living there (I was only 18, first time away from home, and the thought that someone could see sweet little me as part of the problem seriously hurt my feelings at that time).

But those were a few isolated incidents...not even a fraction of 1% of my life. As a white woman, I honestly don't have to face discrimination based on my race on a day to day basis (I didn't even when living in an area where I was the minority). I don't have to live with it everywhere I go. It hasn't been a part of my life from the time of my birth onward. I'm not sure if any of this is making any sense, or if it's all just insane ramblings by now. It's late on this side of the Atlantic, and I'm getting sleepy.

If you want a better explanation, I really suggest that you read the article that bettieclem linked.

SoyMilk: I wasn't talking about people wearing trucker hats, really. I was talking about wealthier people moving into a poor neighborhood and driving the rent up. Not a problem in most rural trailer parks, in spite of Britney Spears' fashion choices. It was more intended as an offhand comment about how I hadn't realized such things happened until I graduated high school and moved to the city, in spite of growing up poor.

Yes, keep it educational. This is a very interesting and informative conversation.

People get defensive and say shit is racist usually because a) it is, b) we are so used to having our words used against us c) we are so used to fighting within a system that privileges white voices even when we are talking about racism (in this case through gentrification) that "educational" usually just means "tell me about your people."

Ok, so what if I want to reclaim my red bandana? Just because once upon a time some idiot wore one when forming a gang, why does this take precedence over my own warm and fuzzy association with red hankies (which predates gang usage)? Why can't they adopt a universally loathed accessory, like the "gang scrunchie?" That scene from "The Jerk" comes to mind - "somebody hates those cans!!"

(I'm not trying to be insensitive, but this thread is in dire need of comic relief.)

WOW. I wish I'd had time to read all the comments... please forgive me if I'm repeating something someone else has said, but I really should be working rather than commenting... :0)

Anyway, Samhita, thanks for posting this. I have mixed feelings about your post and to be honest, my initial reaction was to be a little pissed off. Like, I'm not supposed to wear bandanas in a poor part of town because I'm white? But then I thought about it and I realized that's not the point. I'm not the point. Just like feminism isn't about men, activism on behalf of people of color isn't about whites. In the end, yeah, it helps all of us... but it's counterproductive for me to sit here and think "how does this affect MEEEEE?" It's besides the point. It isn't about me. Which isn't to say I don't have a culture -- but my white culture is not built up as in some sense a vanguard against an oppressive class. Hip hop culture or so-called "ghetto" culture (though I hate this word too) is. Funny enough, I think that infamous South Park episode probably said it best: the point is that I can't understand. I can empathize, I can try to stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution, but I can't understand. I never REALLY will, because I'm white. And that's simply how it is. And NO, this isn't racist, because racism is INSTITUTIONAL, not individual. In other words, while there are definitely people who unjustly hate whites and commit unjustified violence against whites based on race, there is no racism against white people. It CANNOT exist because as whites, we are too powerful. WE ARE NOT VICTIMS OF RACISM, PERIOD. And I think that's a difficult pill for my race to swallow.

Also, I feel compelled to point out that this IS, at least in part, a feminist issue: our sisters of color suffer in a unique way from the intersection of sexism and racism and race politics. Something feminism is consistently and rightly criticized for is being preeminently a white women's movement. But for us to ask men, a dominant group, to pay attention to us and our concerns and our needs, while at the same time using the exact same arguments MRAS USE AGAINST US, against people of color who speak out against white oppression, is beyond hypocritical.

That said, I have incredibly mixed feelings about gentrification, which I see as only PARTLY a race issue. I think it's just as much a class issue, and has to do with the economic stratification to which our country is rapidly falling prey. We're losing our middle class, especially in the big cities. Here in Los Angeles, I'm lucky to find a hovel for 300K. 300K is a SHITLOAD of money, and it might buy you a crappy motorhome in the city. You want an actual HOUSE, and not even a big one at that, you're talking a million dollars. A million bucks. I can promise you, not even high-paid corporate lawyers can afford that until they've been working and saving for a very, very, VERY long time. So in some sense it seems a little unfair to me to say "hey, stay out of our neighborhoods"... where else is your average middle-class white person going to live? Beverly Hills, where a 600 square foot studio runs you over a thousand bucks a month, (before parking or utilities)?

At the same time, I don't like looking at this from an us-versus-them point of view. Again, racism is NOT individual (even though there are some really horrible, hateful individuals out there... their problem is that they're hateful, bad people, not that they're racist. If there were no system in place allowing them to be racist they'd find some other outlet for their hate). Racism is institutional and systemic. So where we see racism simultaneously creating and destroying cultures, and overall harming a group of people -- it seems to me we should look for SYSTEMIC solutions. My moving or not moving into a neighborhood isn't the issue. The issue is the cultural forces that segregate us and that make life even less affordable for people of color than for whites. The problem is poverty. The problem is immobility. The problem is exalting of white culture as "real" or "serious" or "mature" and the demeaning of minority cultures as marginal. The problem is when it becomes "fun" to "play minority," because when you're finished you can go back to your "real" life where you're an upstanding kid with good prospects and a solid future. When a Jamal can walk into a job interview wearing a bandana and be every bit as likely to get the job as Matthew wearing a suit, maybe then it won't be so offensive for Matthew to wear a bandana and live in Jamal's neighborhood, as though he understands Jamal's life and lives Jamal's reality. He doesn't. And until we solve the institutional problems, he won't.

Sorry if this seems scattered... again, should be working...

but one addendum on a serious note: the people who support this kind of forum are (as mentioned before) more enlightened than most folks. applying the term "racist" to the average feminist is going to affect us more than someone like Ann Coulter, and we will take it personally. it goes against who we are and strive to be. please keep this in mind, moving forward; we're not as evil as you think.

Stench of white privilege? Can you cite examples?

A better question would be where aren't the examples of white privilege? But I'll start off with that very quote.

White privilege is the ability to not even recognize your own white privilege. Enlighten yourself with that.

"Unfortunately, I don't see any solution to gentrification, except to ignore poor communities as ever and let them languish in crime and poverty."

Either that or maybe some sort of rent control?

http://www.planetizen.com/node/24451
---------------------------

"...In the U.S., housing security is most often achieved through home ownership. But while two-thirds of U.S. households own their home, the government incentives and subsidies for home ownership don't work as well in high-cost and landlord-heavy New York -- so two-thirds of households there rent. Rent regulation simply provides renters two of the same types of stability that home owners enjoy and that everyone deserves and needs. First, rent control makes housing costs predictable, which is vital for any long-term financial plans a family may have. Second, it makes the location of one's home more stable as well, which is vital since displacement when the rent goes up can disrupt one's job, children's schools, child care arrangements, health care access, family networks, and more.

"The importance of housing stability gives the lie to another common idea, that rent control is something only the poor need. The last revision of New York's rent regulations stripped its protections from apartments renting for more than $2,000 and tenants making more than $175,000. But everyone needs housing stability -- and policies that have a broad constituency, like Social Security, are politically more secure than ones that target only the poor. Landlords push to reduce eligibility for rent regulation because making it a program for the poor alone will make it a program vulnerable to elimination. While eliminating protections for upper-income brackets today may sound satisfying to class warriors, remember that the first time New York luxury apartments were exempted from rent control (in 1958) "luxury" meant rents above $416 a month. In the same way, time and inflation mean the $2,000 cap in place today will slowly strangle rent control if it's not repealed..."
---------------------------

"How the hell am I supposed to know what color bandanna is appropriate or not? Is there someplace where I can find out?"

Years ago I heard that American gangs tend to prefer bright primary colors instead of more subtle tones, so one may not wish to wear them where one suspects a gang claims turf.

OTOH, for all I know these days some newer gangs did choose lavender or forest green because the bolder colors were already taken.

"I also believe bandannas were originally made popular by Western cowboys, but nobody wrote an angry blog when rappers started wearing them. Just saying."

Then there's that Rosie the Riveter poster.

"I for one am looking forward to Shelby Lee Adams Chic, featuring the fashions of the Appalachian holler."

Would that have anything to do with rockabilly?

"well, if I see anyone wearing a pair punk pins and they are not punk, I guess I should get offended when they come into my punk neighborhood. I guess they are taking a form of violence against my culture... oh wait, i'm white, apparently I dont have a culture."

Did you see Latoya Peterson's comment at Racialicious?

---------------------------
"...On one hand, the rise of ghetto chic is interesting to me because…and how do I say this politely…the ghetto is so over it.

"I was shocked to see one of my hood relations come to the house looking like me in my high school days - shocking day glo hair, ripped bell bottom jeans with lacy overlay, tiny baby tee, belt with a skull and crossbones. Checking out the fashion of young teens in the more impoverished areas, it looks like hip-hop style is so yesterday.

"The new thing is kind of a modified rock-punk look. (Interestingly, musical taste hasn’t really changed, just aesthetic). So, right when fashion decided to play ghetto-dress up, the ghetto dropped the style.

"I find this endlessly amusing..."
---------------------------

"There was a time in my life that I was accused of being a part of gentrification (by a few people who knew nothing about me other than the apparent color of my skin). I was just living there because I was genuinely poor."

Sounds like someone didn't get what the "gentri-" part of "gentrification" means.

"You hate us in the suburbs, and you hate us in the city, so, uh...where should we go?"

Maybe they want you to be rural? There's more to human habitat than suburban areas and urban areas.

"Thus, it was vastly annoying to run into people who clearly spent a lot of time shopping at Hot Topic, but had never bothered to learn the names of (let alone actually listen to) even the most well-known goth bands."

That just reminded me of a definition I saw once on Usenet:

---------------------------
"An Ancient Goth is a barbarian who destroyed the Roman Empire. A Modern Goth is a vegetarian who yearns to be a vampire."
---------------------------

"No matter how much I learn about Japanese culture, I will never be Japanese."

At least, not unless you go through the apparently-years-long process of gaining citizenship there.

"The city governments should be held accountable, too. The zoning and rezoning in some areas is insane."

Right on! Zoning can be used for good or for evil, and unfortunately it's used badly too often.

"This may be totally out there, but I have the feeling that a person of color, no matter how much money they do or don't have, can walk in way more places in NYC and not feel like they're going to get robbed."

Way more places? Are you sure about that...?

"I've actually had black people tell me 'don't go to ____ unless you have a n***** (their words, not mine) with you.'"

Wouldn't this also keep ____ off the list of places in NYC an Asian can walk into and not feel like she or he is going to get robbed?

Samhita, I'll start off by saying that what you just said totally makes sense and it's a good point, but I'm also, at this point, feeling totally helpless and frustrated and a little bit nauseous because of the blinding, eye-rolling sarcasm you choose to emphasize an otherwise productive comment with. I really, honestly, 100% don't know what to do next. I feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall. I'm sorry if you don't find this thread interesting and educational - I do. I think it's impossible NOT to learn something, whatever it is, from a conversation like this.

I feel obliged to note that I have had several people here mercilessly criticize me for being ignorant and tell me to go fucking learn something about someone else's culture, and as I'm trying to do that or even just participate in a conversation, I'm getting accosted by the same people who apparently think that by trying to learn how I can change the very thing we ALL agree is fucked up, I'm patronizing them and their experience by having a discussion.

Really, what is it you want us to do or say? I asked this a few comments ago, and nobody answered. What could I the individual do to lessen the sting of white privilege for the people oppressed by it? I am really, truly, seriously asking. I get that you and others are pissed at us, think we don't understand, think we're willfully racist and ignorant - WHAT CAN WE DO TO CHANGE THIS?

Lucy Stone, I got you. The trailer fashion thing was just something I thought of last minute and popped in there, but I see what you were getting at.

but one addendum on a serious note: the people who support this kind of forum are (as mentioned before) more enlightened than most folks. applying the term "racist" to the average feminist is going to affect us more than someone like Ann Coulter, and we will take it personally. it goes against who we are and strive to be. please keep this in mind, moving forward; we're not as evil as you think.

I don't think that being a feminist makes you automatically sensitive to race issues. Just like liberal men can easily be just as misogynist as anyone else, feminists can and do ignore the points of view of people of color.

sorry if i'm being repetitive...i only ready through about half the comments.

anyway, i don't have a problem with cultures borrowing from each other, like in different fusion cuisines, or when a designer takes inspiration from other cultures.

i do, however, have a problem with hipsters who wear 'ghetto' clothing as a way to be oh so witty and ironic. this is what makes me mad - people who are wearing do-rags or bandanas or whatever because it is such a joke that they would be associated with black culture or poverty or violence or whatever they associate with ghettos. and i'm not talking based on assumptions - i went to a school where most students were the wealthy, private school types. shopping at goodwill was another good way to be ironic. does that make sense?

Cara,

The problem shouldn't come from making the comparison. The "privilege problem" or whatever you want to call it comes from what you DO with the comparison.

Oh, and to address your false accusation (where'd you get the basis for that one?) I am not working from the assumption that "white people and people of color are starting out at the same level in this country." That is clearly not true, and nothing in my post suggests otherwise.

I AM, however, asking the question of what level of action, statement, and invective is justified in lieu of that disparity. What type of imbalance is necessary. Hopefully the answer isn't "anything i say." I think this post was over the line.

It is in fact privilege to compare oppressed communities who seek solace in each other through shared culture and experience and feel rightfully defensive toward outsiders to the segregation that whites used to legally impose and still informally practice to this day.
No, it's not.

POC are not the only ones who have "shared culture and experience." Whites have it, too. You don't get to call it "racist privilege" when whites want to protect their communities, and ALSO call it "wonderful shared culture" when the reverse happens.

What you're doing is making an a priori assumption that any defensive behavior by whites is "bad", while defensive behavior by POC is "rightful." Worse yet, you're trying to prevent me from even questioning that assumption, by accusing me of being "privileged" in the hopes I'll drop it.

They're both protectionist; they're both similar motivations. People generally like things to stay the same, whichever race they are.

Is one, perhaps, justified? Sure, maybe. I don't pretend that the effects of gentrification are evenly distributed across races. Race-specific issues exist, and always will, in this country.

But talking about it is not privileged.

About this:
"Samhita, great post. But these comments reek of bullshit, and the stench of white privilege is burning my eyes. I'm gone. And people wonder why WOCs blast on Feministing?"

Let's remember that there is a difference between the writers of a blog (like Samhita, Celina, Jen, Jessica, et. al) who do their best to analyze, critique, inform and spark debate -- and commenters, who are unaffiliated with the blog and who have their own agendas, politics and tone (this holds true for all blogs, not just Feministing). It's basically akin to newspaper and magazine content vs. letters to the editor -- the content of a publication is the responsibility of the journalists they employ as well as of the institution that publishes that outlet. Content of letters to the editor are not produced by the outlet and do not reflect the opinions of the outlet. (It's actually not a perfect one-to-one comparison, because newspapers and magazines have some responsibility for choosing which few letters they print each edition, which helps to skew debate for or against certain sides of issues, voices, etc. With comments on most blogs, there's far less of a selection process - usually, most posts are allowed to remain unless they're outright violent, use hate speech/slurs, etc.)

Which is to say, just because there are racist comments in the Feministing comments section -- just like there are sexist and racist comments in the AlterNet and TAP comments -- that doesn't mean these blogs themselves are racist (or sexist). Don't stop reading Feministing if you don't like the comments - just don't read the comments, then!

"Ghetto chic" is huge, it is everywhere. The popularization of hip-hop has affected style, music, art, food, everything. That in and of itself is not inherently bad. But have the "ghettos" become a better place to be. Have the same problems that affect poor, urban youth, disappeared. No.

Are you suggesting that if hip hop style was not so popular, more progress would be made regarding those problems? What does one have to do with the other?

I know it is hard to understand why white people aren't allowed to do whatever they want, since our culture assumes that white people are entitled to whatever they want without consequences.

Why shouldn't any person, regardless of their skin color, be able to do whatever they want without consequences? Isn't that a goal of the anti-racism movement?

And what consequences do you think are appropriate for the boy in the coffee shop dressed as a gangsta?

I don't deny I am being a hater

Well, we finally agree on something

As for the hipster scarf: here in Montreal, you'll see several kaffiyehs if you walk down the street on a cold day. It's fashionable and it keeps your neck warm. Why shouldn't we wear them?

"i do, however, have a problem with hipsters who wear 'ghetto' clothing as a way to be oh so witty and ironic. this is what makes me mad - people who are wearing do-rags or bandanas or whatever because it is such a joke"

As opposed to people who wear do-rags, bandannas, etc. just because they think those look good? OK, got it. :)

"As for the hipster scarf: here in Montreal, you'll see several kaffiyehs if you walk down the street on a cold day. It's fashionable and it keeps your neck warm. Why shouldn't we wear them?"

http://iamfashion.blogspot.com/2007/04/scarves-for-now.html

http://swedenburg.blogspot.com/2007/02/kufiyaspotting-14-new-york-times-citing.html

Now I'm wondering what people would say about pink and purple kaffiyehs, and reminded a little of this article I saw once on baseball fashion which included a photo of a Sikh fan wearing his Red Sox turban.

I don't think that being a feminist makes you automatically sensitive to race issues. Just like liberal men can easily be just as misogynist as anyone else, feminists can and do ignore the points of view of people of color.

Anything is possible (and I know men like this), but often I feel if I try to understand the issues surrounding WOC I get easily dismissed. If I don't try to understand, I get reprimanded. Which is it? What do you want me to say or believe? I can't help how I was born, so deal with it. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Stench of white privilege? Can you cite examples?

A better question would be where aren't the examples of white privilege? But I'll start off with that very quote.

White privilege is the ability to not even recognize your own white privilege. Enlighten yourself with that.

I haven't seen anyone here express any negative sentiments towards POC, and wanted an example. How is this tone necessary or relevant? Again, what do you want me to say? Are you willing to have a conversation, or would you just prefer to berate me for my skin color? Are you applying this to every race and economic situation, or just people with light skin, no matter what their backgrounds?

The ball is in your court.

What could I the individual do to lessen the sting of white privilege for the people oppressed by it?

First, acknowledge that it exists.

Second, acknowledge that, as a white person, you are the beneficiary of it. No matter what your ancestors' background, what happened in your past, whats happening in your present, and what may happen in your future, you do benefit from it.

Third, learn about white privilege yourself instead of asking the most convenient POC. It is not our job to teach you (you=general) about racism and privilege.

Fourth, and I can't stress this enough: It's not all about you.

"Third, learn about white privilege yourself instead of asking the most convenient POC."

Instead, ask the most convenient librarian.

"It is not our job to teach you (you=general) about racism and privilege."

Yeah, this is like lurking on a newsgroup for a while before chiming in, right?

Second, acknowledge that, as a white person, you are the beneficiary of it. No matter what your ancestors' background, what happened in your past, whats happening in your present, and what may happen in your future, you do benefit from it.

So, you're saying my opinion doesn't matter to you, nor will it ever by trying to entrap me into acknowledging something I may or may not personally believe. Any valuable cultural contributions or traits from my background are null and void.

The saddest part of your sentiments is the last part:what may happen in your future, you do benefit from it. If you want to make any perceived differences irrelevant for future generations, you have to believe in change. Doesn't sound like you have much faith in anything.

Leave my ancestors out of this: they did nothing to you.

Damn, Jane Minty, pass me some of what you're smoking so I, too, can be so high up in the clouds that the world doesn't move me.

I haven't seen anyone here express any negative sentiments towards POC, and wanted an example. How is this tone necessary or relevant? Again, what do you want me to say? Are you willing to have a conversation, or would you just prefer to berate me for my skin color? Are you applying this to every race and economic situation, or just people with light skin, no matter what their backgrounds?

You asked for an example, and I threw your own quote right back at you. Now, read this slowly, and read it carefully. I'll even type this in nice big letters for you:

WHITE PRIVILEGE IS NOT KNOWING WHAT WHITE PRIVILEGE IS.

And it has nothing to do with your ancestry or your past, or your parents, or even your present. White privilege is the result of centuries of instutionalized, government-applauded racism. White privilege means that if a person of color were in your exact same situation, her life would suck 10x more.

White privilege is asking a person of color to show you examples of white privilege that are so blatant they're practically making my eyes bleed, yet your own privilege is blinding you to them.

White privilege is bothering a person of color with such a dumbass question with the expectation of being taught about race relations in relation to privilege instead of looking it up your damn self!

Third, learn about white privilege yourself instead of asking the most convenient POC. It is not our job to teach you (you=general) about racism and privilege.

Malaika924, for argument's sake, are you actually interested in who I am as a human being, or in anything I have to say? I just wanted to make sure this wasn't one-sided.

Malaika924, for argument's sake, are you actually interested in who I am as a human being, or in anything I have to say?

Truthfully, no.

Leave my ancestors out of this: they did nothing to you.

Are you sure?

Are you sure?

Yeah, unless you were hanging out in Northern France or the Czech Republic hundreds of years ago.

Truthfully, no.

So, what's my incentive for caring about you again? Is the trolling necessary?

TheSoyMilkConspiracy-

-One way to educate yourself is to look up various articles and books and blogs that address the ideas being discussed here. Read them. Think about them. Try not to get too defensive and dismiss them when they make you upset. Think about them some more.

- Ditch the defeatist attitude expressed in this comment "but I, and every other white person I know (because I am not friends with assholes) would destroy white privilege in a heartbeat if we had that power, because we know it's wrong." You have the power. We all have the power. You, as a (presumably) white american, have more power than many. Use it. Figure out how you as an individual can affect change in society. Join/support groups that already do this.

- Don't demand a community to teach you. If you take a moment, you'll notice that people have been indirectly teaching you. People have been speaking. Now you should listen (actually, you don't have to do anything, but if you want to learn, listening is going to be the best way to go about it).

- Go outside and interact with your community, but don't use POC as your test subjects (meaning, they are not obligated to be anything to you - neither teacher nor pet to be brought out when you want to have your "ethnic" experience). This can be a very difficult thing for people to manage. Try.

- Accept that people have different experiences, reactions to situations, and feelings about situations. If they feel attacked or trivialized or marginalized, it is an authentic feeling - even when you don't agree. Accept it. Think about it. Figure out ways to be both respectful to those feelings and how to help make society better.

***These are just my opinions.

So, what's my incentive for caring about you again? Is the trolling necessary?

Oh because I'm right, I must be trolling?

And what makes you think that my ancestors weren't in France or the Czech Republic?

SoyMilk--three concrete things you can do to better understand your white privilege:

1) Read the essay I posted THREE TIMES ALREADY on this thread;

2) Check out the People's Institute for Survival and Beyond (www.pisab.org);

3) Stop asking POC to do your own reflective race work for you. It is not their job, it is ours--we white folk have the power in this situation (and hint: that is a big part of the problem!)

(Hey Trevelynne, jinx! Kudos for being more diplomatic than I...)

Malaika924:

For points one and two: go back and reread my comments. I acknowledge SEVERAL times that white privilege exists - I acknowledged that it exists in the very comment of mine that you JUST quoted! Isn't asking "what could I the individual do to lessen the sting of white privilege for the people oppressed by it?" acknowlidging that it exists?! Jesus. I also state SEVERAL times that I understand that because I am white, I have and always will be a part of and benefit from white privilege. For you to attack me on these two points is completely unjustified - they were already acknowledged by me much earlier. It's pretty clear that you're choosing to ignore certain things that I say because you just might actually agree with them, and they're not helpful in painting me as a total racist asshole.

Your third point is totally valid, but I don't think that completely shutting down and scoffing "go ask a librarian" when engaged in a discussion such as this one is necessarily the right response, and it can be reasonably interpreted in a really offputting way. I do, however, understand that it must be frustrating to be expected to be a spokesperson for "your people" as Samhita noted, and feel pressure from other people to explain things that they should already understand themselves. I'm with you on this one.

And you're right - it isn't all about me, just like it's not all about you or all about anybody on this thread. However, if people attack me or question me personally (which you and others have done), I'm going to answer you or them personally. Simple as that.

On a completely different note, I would like to acknowledge that I have respect for every person on this board, you included. Disagreeing on things doesn't mean you can't be respectful or kind to people, but I'm not seeing this same reciprocation from certain people for various posters, and it's really upsetting. Personal attacks when our general goal is the same is really hurtful. I'm hoping people can understand this, but I have an inkling that these feelings are just going to be totally dismissed.

3) Stop asking POC to do your own reflective race work for you. It is not their job, it is ours--we white folk have the power in this situation (and hint: that is a big part of the problem!)

THANK YOU!

OK - I'm going to suggest a couple of things that have come to mind while watching this unfold.

1) As a person who lives in a mid-size, very multicultural Canadian city, I can understand why some people don't see the significance of a piece of clothing. Culturally, race is different here. Not that we don't have racism, we've got it aplenty, but a bandanna is not *loaded* in some cultural environments as it clearly is in yours. I don't think these people are trying to be insensitive; I think maybe it is just something they don't instantly relate to.

2) I'm going to exaggerate this to the point of caricature... imagine if a white guy in your neighbourhood started walking around dressed like an "Indian chief." You'd think he was a huge asshole, right? If the same intention, the "irony" is behind people who co-opt gang clothing, that's a good reason to be against it, I'm thinking?

3) People here on both sides are making a lot of (sometimes very unfair) assumptions. Perhaps we could try to listen to each other. It might be more productive.

4) You shouldn't assume, because it makes an ass out of Uma Thurman. (Thanks, Stewart Smally!)

I know this is a sensitive topic, but we should really be trying to have an authentic dialogue instead of ripping each other new ones.

(Man, this US spell-check is confusing. But it's right! It's... oh.)

Trevelynne, I do appreciate your non-insulting comments. Just know that probably a majority of us here already do these things, at least to some extent. In addition, I'm happy to consider your points; I just want to know that efforts made by non-WOC are also acknowledged, and not outright dismissed.

Also, consider this for a moment: many of us in the Sesame Street generation don't think about race because we were raised not to. Back then, not thinking about the racial background of your friends - just thinking of them as friends - was a good thing.

Finally, just because I don't devote a certain percentage of energy to whatever cause doesn't mean I'm against it. I have many causes dear to me, and the amount of energy it takes to function with work and life in general is overwhelming at times.

I've always been eager to learn about other cultures; I just don't want mine dismissed in the process.

(Hey Trevelynne, jinx! Kudos for being more diplomatic than I...)

bettieclem- Haha! But kudos to you for being more to the point! Good resources, too.

Jane, I SWEAR I am not trying to be an asshole, but this:

"Finally, just because I don't devote a certain percentage of energy to whatever cause doesn't mean I'm against it. I have many causes dear to me, and the amount of energy it takes to function with work and life in general is overwhelming at times."

...that right there--the notion that undoing racism is a "cause" that you can be "for" or "against" depending on the time you have to spare it--that is the definition of white privilege.

(Sorry for the double post earlier, signing off now--shoddy wireless at home).

So, what's my incentive for caring about you again? Is the trolling necessary?

Oh because I'm right, I must be trolling?

And what makes you think that my ancestors weren't in France or the Czech Republic?

Hm, you seem to imply it here, "Third, learn about white privilege yourself instead of asking the most convenient POC. It is not our job to teach you (you=general) about racism and privilege." But you know at this point, I don't even care either, since you obviously don't give a rat's ass about others' opinions except for your own. Regardless, you've contributed only accusations and insults in this thread. How does this help anyone?

"Your third point is totally valid, but I don't think that completely shutting down and scoffing 'go ask a librarian'"

Hey, don't blame Malaika924 for the librarian comment, that was mine! Personally, I go ask librarians about stuff all the time. ;)

For points one and two: go back and reread my comments. I acknowledge SEVERAL times that white privilege exists - I acknowledged that it exists in the very comment of mine that you JUST quoted! Isn't asking "what could I the individual do to lessen the sting of white privilege for the people oppressed by it?" acknowlidging that it exists?! Jesus. I also state SEVERAL times that I understand that because I am white, I have and always will be a part of and benefit from white privilege. For you to attack me on these two points is completely unjustified - they were already acknowledged by me much earlier. It's pretty clear that you're choosing to ignore certain things that I say because you just might actually agree with them, and they're not helpful in painting me as a total racist asshole.

You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to.

I did see where you "acknowledged" that it exists. I also saw how in many of your comments, it's pretty apparent that you don't fully understand what white privilege is. Example:
So Snappy Mac, along with educating myself about gentrification, institutionalized racism, the prison industrial complex, and about a billion other issues that we ignorant whities are supposed to educate ourselves on to be tolerable at best, I have to research every piece of clothing I wear so my big, bad, 120 pound ass isn't trying to overtake the vulnerable streets of Brooklyn? Please. Some of us aren't privileged enough to have the luxury of THAT much free time, and I'm doing the best I can.

WTF was that??

So, yes, you definitely need to go back and really learn about white privilege.

Your third point is totally valid, but I don't think that completely shutting down and scoffing "go ask a librarian" when engaged in a discussion such as this one is necessarily the right response, and it can be reasonably interpreted in a really offputting way.

Everytime an issue of race is thrown in, POCs are always told that we're being too sensitive, we don't know what we're talking about, or we're playing the "race card". And then, when we call someone on it, they want us to prove to them the validity of our argument. They want us to prove to them why our sense of discrimination and oppression is so valid.

Fuck. That. Shit.

It's tiring, it's frustrating, and, most of all, it's painful.

So, I'm sorry if you or anyone else don't appreciate the fact that I don't like to hold anybody's hand and teach them about slavery and Mother Africa, and Dr. King, and affirmative action. Read a book. I'm sick of it.

Jane:

Just because I'm a Person of Color, doesn't mean I don't have white ancestors.
Haven't you ever realized that we all come in different shades of brown?

Regardless of what the cute little Black girl with the funny sense of humor told you in elementary school, it wasn't because she drank a lot of chocolate milk.

Hey, I don't think you're an asshole at all. In fact, I take kindly to not being insulted. ;)

...that right there--the notion that undoing racism is a "cause" that you can be "for" or "against" depending on the time you have to spare it--that is the definition of white privilege.

Um, smaller projects that contribute to a greater cause - donating, volunteering, being aware of political issues, educating myself, listening, learning, interacting, making myself better...all the same things we ask people of feminism, yes?

Jane:

I could care if you don't give a damn about me personally. I really don't. But you lack of tolerance is really disturbing.

You called me a troll earlier, so I suspect that you're a regular to this site. Would I be wrong if I called you a feminist?

If you are indeed a feminist, then you believe in male privilege. If male privilege exists, why is it so hard for you to believe in white privilege?

Just a note to all: Someone else mentioned the same thing earlier, but I can't find the quote. Shout-out if it was you!

Jane:

Just because I'm a Person of Color, doesn't mean I don't have white ancestors.
Haven't you ever realized that we all come in different shades of brown?

Regardless of what the cute little Black girl with the funny sense of humor told you in elementary school, it wasn't because she drank a lot of chocolate milk.

Huh, none of my elementary school friends ever told me this one.

Of course we come in all shades of brown and olive, myself included. By this logic, you yourself may need to examine your own contribution to "white privilege." ;)

Jane: Just answer my question.

I could care if you don't give a damn about me personally. I really don't. But you lack of tolerance is really disturbing.

Whoa lady - I'm not the one hurling insults and categorically dismissing a group of people based on their skin color. Citing me as intolerant is certainly the pot calling the kettle...oh nevermind.

You called me a troll earlier, so I suspect that you're a regular to this site. Would I be wrong if I called you a feminist?

If you are indeed a feminist, then you believe in male privilege. If male privilege exists, why is it so hard for you to believe in white privilege?

I believe there are inequalities, but I don't write off men because they were born with penises. I believe that change, while always moving 3 steps forward and 2 back, is still generally producing results. I would NEVER, EVER tell a man that, by virtue of being a man, that he will always be subjected to a "privilege." I also recognize feminist contributions of men when credit is due, and acknowledge those who recognize feminist views as opposed to scolding them for simply being men. I don't hold their male ancestors responsible for current injustices.

What question are you referring to?

Trevelynne:

There are no words. I have "dismissed" NONE of these points - I have considered, answered, discussed, disagreed with or agreed with all of them - this is not "dismissing" anything. You know absolutely nothing about me. You know nothing about my educational background, what books I've read and research I've done on the subject of race (a lot), how many friends I have that are POC or economically disenfranchised or both (a lot) or how many groups I have been a part of that aim at social and racial justice (a lot). I work mostly with POC in my fucking job - I am CONSTANTLY telling my manager that certain materials that we publish reek of "white privilege" and don't include people of color enough. In other words, I'm trying. I'm not telling you this to try to earn your respect, admiration, pat on the back, but just so you realize that I'm already with you.

However, when I read this:
"Accept that people have different experiences, reactions to situations, and feelings about situations. If they feel attacked or trivialized or marginalized, it is an authentic feeling - even when you don't agree. Accept it. Think about it. Figure out ways to be both respectful to those feelings and how to help make society better."
I actually laughed. This is the exact same point that I have made in several comments on this board. I even said the same thing to a person who agreed with me but then went on to dismiss Samhita's feelings, which I criticized her for. I'm a BIG advocate of not trivializing someone's feelings. I'M WITH YOU, NOT AGAINST YOU.

Bettieclam: I printed out the essay earlier at work and I read it - I LOVE how you assume that I didn't though.

Finally: I GET IT. Stop giving yourselves high fives over the "go do your own research and stop asking POC to explain privilege to you" comment. That was something I acknowledged was a correct and valid point, like, 3 hours ago and have personally understood for years. I was literally frustrated to the point of tears, and I simply wanted to know what I could do to make people happy and stop being attacked. It was a mistake to ask. I WAS WRONG AND I'M SORRY. Let's move on.

*sigh*
Malaika924:

I'd like to note that I never claimed you were playing the race card or that you're being too sensitive. In fact, I mentioned that your feelings were completely justified. Stop making up reasons to hate me or trivializing what I have to say. I am not asking you to teach me about slavery and Mother Africa, and Dr. King, and affirmative action. We're all just having a discussion, albeit an important one.

And yeah, I can see how the second comment you quoted can be interpreted shittily. I regret it, and I'd take it back if I could. However, I absolutely do not deserve the amount of hatred and disrespect you've exhibited towards me. Your comments are borderline mean, and I'm sure you're just going to dismiss whatever I'm feeling, but you've really been unnecessarily hostile when I've tried to be the opposite.

I'm really, really, really disappointed in people's comments on what's supposed to be a safe space to have discussions like this. I've never felt so accosted in this kind of community. I apologize profusely if anything I have said made somebody feel the way I'm feeling right now, because it is hella shitty. I don't think I'm the only person that feels that way.

This will be my last post, so feel free to continue deliberately misinterpreting and twisting what I say. I've had a long, hard day at work, now I have a headache, and all I want to do is go cry, smoke a joint, go to bed, and forget this ever happened. I was hoping there was going to be some kind of positive outcome from this conversation, but I have a feeling most of us just feel like total shit.

I believe there are inequalities, but I don't write off men because they were born with penises.

What I said was that white people have privilege, have had privilege, and will have privileges that POCs do not have. I never said anything about "writing off" white people because of that privilege, as evidenced in the response I gave to SoyMilkConspiracy.

I would NEVER, EVER tell a man that, by virtue of being a man, that he will always be subjected to a "privilege."

But it's true. That's what male privilege is about. Men do have privilege, just as whites as privilege. And they, like you, will always be subjected to that privilege.

SoyMilkConspiracy: I know you're probably in bad by now, but in case you see this when you wake up:

Rember what we said about not making this all about you?

I'd like to note that I never claimed you were playing the race card or that you're being too sensitive. In fact, I mentioned that your feelings were completely justified. Stop making up reasons to hate me or trivializing what I have to say. I am not asking you to teach me about slavery and Mother Africa, and Dr. King, and affirmative action. We're all just having a discussion, albeit an important one.

I never attributed this to you personally. I was just trying to make you understand why I and some other POCs might not like it when people ask us (over and over and over again) "What can we do about racism? Or white privilege? etc" It was not meant to be a personal attack and I'm sorry if you felt that way.

However, I absolutely do not deserve the amount of hatred and disrespect you've exhibited towards me. Your comments are borderline mean, and I'm sure you're just going to dismiss whatever I'm feeling, but you've really been unnecessarily hostile when I've tried to be the opposite.

Not hostile. Just tired. Tired of having this same conversation over and over again with grown people when I think they should know better.

i want to thank some of the commenters for making me realize that even tho rising rent costs becos of gentrification displaced me and kicked my white ass out of chicago and into the corn fields adding an hour commute doesnt at all mean i have it as bad as a poc might in the same situation. i dont recall who said it, but the poster who said white privelege means that in any given situation its 10x worse for a person of color really put things into a whole new perspective. so thank you.

onto fashion, i am a white girl, and i probably spend most of my time running around looking like the hipster poster child, AND i have a folded up bandana tied around my head like a headband right now (not like rocky, more like a 1950s schoolgirl)so i feel like maybe im the problem. except im wearing my bandana with a flowered sundress and checkered vans slip-ons. i truly dont see my wearing a bandana as appropriating anyones culture but my own punk rock culture that ive been a part of for 15 years. bandanas have been worn by the greaser/rockabilly community in back pockets or as head coverings, in the hardcore community in the pit tied over ones face like a cowboy, and all over the faces of political activists trying not to be identified.

my bringing all of this up, is this: does context matter? does the fact that im wearing what i am with my yellow bandana make a difference, that when i wear my bandana i am honoring my own cultural history (someone mentioned above that punk is not equal to race, but when you are a euro-mutt raised in a standard american home and in american public schools you lack a historic culture, making whatever subsect of society you belong to an important cultural signifier. obviously tho, i realize i can cover my tattoos, take out my nosering, grow my hair and "pass" for susie whitegirl in a way no poc can, so i realize punk does not equal race)

i feel like the punk/indie hipster fashion is about creativity, about taking bits and pieces of all different styles and combining them in a hodgepodge that is unique to itself. yes, one of my fashion influences is retro hip hop, another is motocross, another poor rural white culture (my own background, as it were), another being 70s punk, another being kids fashion, another being bike messengers, another being skate culture, another being old ladies, another being 1950s greaser style, and mod, and glam rock, and punky brewster and so on and so on.

im really not trying to be an ass. i just really feel personally that context matters. if i were wearing my bandana tied differently with clothing more tied to hip hop i could see it as appropriating, but as it stands, i feel like im carving out my own identity in the absence of having a historical one that means anything. i hated the white boy wanna be thugs in my highschool in the same way i hated the girls who got tattoos of japanese or chinese characters. i realize that those people are appropriating others cultures, but i dont feel i am. am i an asshole? i didnt see the guy at your coffee shop tho, so maybe what he was doing has nothing to do with me. well, i kno it has nothing to do with me, i saw that above, so i guess im making it about me, but im really curious about context as basis for reaction.

and if i were soymilkconspiracy, id be more concerned with the reaction of the fetish community to a back pocket bandana, you may be signifying something else you dont mean to also.

"i hated the white boy wanna be thugs in my highschool in the same way i hated the girls who got tattoos of japanese or chinese characters."

BTW, have you seen http://www.hanzismatter.com/ ? Tian's comments sometimes remind me of writing teachers handing back essays:
http://www.hanzismatter.com/2007/05/serbians-chinese-tattoo.html

No Malaika, they were, and continue to be, personally insulting and hostile - no matter how "tired" or frustrated you are. I'm bummed at how a clearly intelligent woman like yourself is refusing to acknowledge that this is even a possibility. I did, however, predict that you were going to dismiss my feelings, and I was right.

And you DID attribute the MLK/slavery comment to me personally:

"So, I'm sorry if you or anyone else don't appreciate the fact that I don't like to hold anybody's hand and teach them about slavery and Mother Africa, and Dr. King, and affirmative action. Read a book. I'm sick of it."

Did you see the word "you" in there? You were speaking to me directly, not to mention, trying to fight me on a point that I ALREADY AGREED WITH YOU ON. It's a really cheap shot (but brilliant tactic) to personally attack or address me, and then try to make me appear narcissistic and selfish when I respond from a personal point of view. Come on.

---talking to the general board now---

I also feel it necessary to point out that the original "punk analogy" that people keep referring to wasn't meant to compare punk to race (as people seem to think), it was meant to compare punk fashion to hip hop fashion - and there's a difference. I'm not defending or arguing with the analogy, just trying to clear some things up.

Ok, I lied, but now I really am getting off the computer.

I don't know who's still up, but I just wanted to add that I feel for the people who are feeling personally attacked. That sucks, and I hope that people can step back and see these posts as not personally motivated, even if they are personally directed. If anyone read the Beth Ditto interview from NME, she says something like, "You can't blame the person, you have to blame the machine that feeds them." I want to stress that this is what is happening here. The machine sucks, and I'm criticizing that, not posters. Law Fairy had a great post about it upthread.

That said, you have to recognize the machine. I'm only starting to get there myself. I know it's hard and it makes you feel like a vulnerable, defensive loser. I kept telling a ridiculously patient POC that there couldn't be such a thing as privilege because I was a working-class white girl and dude, I had struggled! Classism and sexism were real; I could write you a book on either. But race privilege? How could I have that if I didn't see it in my life? How could it exist when I knew wealthy black men?

And the day came when I shut up and listened. It turns out that my experience is not the end-all be-all of life's realities.

mina you said:
BTW, have you seen http://www.hanzismatter.com/ ? Tian's comments sometimes remind me of writing teachers handing back essays:
http://www.hanzismatter.com/2007/05/serbians-chinese-tattoo.html

and i just looked. the whole thing is just absurd. its like white neo-hippies running around calling themselves rastafarians and forcing their stick straight hair into dreadlocks. i cant understand why someone would go "i lack my own culture, lets steal someone elses" when they could go "well, i lack my own culture, so i guess i need to create one that resonates with me that i will be proud to share with future generations of my family".

what it really reminds me of is my friend's story about his korean american friend rob and a girl they were both friends with. it was during that time period in the 90s when asian culture was being appropriated like crazy, and chinese and japanese characters were printed all over shirts and baggy jeans. they were all in a store and the girl kept bringing various items of clothing to rob to ask what they said. he kept saying "i dont kno, i cant read that" until finally he got fed up and snapped "it says white people are stupid!"

which really, if the world is just at all, should be what it really said.

oof. i should mention that when i insult white people wearing, or getting tattooed with chinese or japanese characters, that i mean the white people who do not read those languages or who have no historical relation to those cultures. i am all for people educating themselves and expanding their worldview.

I'm clearly coming into this conversation late, but I can't help but comment...

jessilikewhoa:
What strikes me about your comment (as well as those of many others here) about your adoption of various "hipster" styles (and similarly of other commenters about where they choose to rent an apartment) is that ultimately you possess a certain mobility in making these choices of "style" and "creativity." For you it is a *choice*. For others it's literally everything they've ever known and grown up in. People in the neighborhood Samhita writes about may not have the choice of wearing a bandana, for creative purposes or otherwise, because of the potentially violent ramifications that are very real for their racial/cultural/socio-economic position in society.

Similarly, a lot of people aren't able to pick up and move to a new neighborhood, just for a "change of scenery," or to "diversify their lives. As hard as it is for hip young urbanites to imagine, a lot of people have familial obligations that tie them to the neighborhoods inhabited by their families for generations. And maybe they don't want to leave. Just because a bunch of insecure white kids who feel uncool about growing up in the midwest feel the need to flee to the city, doesn't mean the people in the cities feel a similar need to flee abandon the places where they grow up.

Jessica - thank you so much for the link to the artical on kaffiyehs. I immediately thought of this trend, which I've seen a lot of kids wearing at anti-war rallies lately, when I first started reading this post. My own gut reaction to it is that it's weird - that these kids (and fashionable artists, apparently) have no connection to the blood that has been shed in connection to it's origin. The article's subject, Rashid says "We feel the need...to look like warriors." And what battle are you fighting, precisely, with your Louis Vuitton bag while the kid from down the street, or the Iraqi mother, was just blown up in a car bomb?

EG, I'm rather disappointed at your personal attacks. I've lived here 14 years, longer than any other place. Like it or not, I'm here to stay. I've poured plenty of energy into local activism...but again, since I'm not a "native" I'll just never understand.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never told you that because you're not a native you'll "just never understand." I disagree with you about gentrification. You identified the value of your comments as they are coming from someone who moved to NYC from the midwest. You said this several times, and used it as an example of why your perspective was important. Why does it become a personal attack when I bring up the problems with that perspective?

Just so you're clear, the lady in my building made the Puerto Rican comments, not me. In an above post you defended people like her, saying they were "less ignorant about what certain symbols mean."

Yes, I'm aware of that. She's racist. That doesn't mean she can't read the significance of symbols common to her neighborhood. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

People of all backgrounds are constantly moving to NYC (as you have indeed confirmed). Who is anyone to determine what kind of immigrant is good vs. bad?

I haven't been judging immigrants. I've been arguing against gentrification. Again, gentrification does not refer to all forms of population change. If you're interested in how gentrification works in NYC, I already provided once source earlier in thread.

Is the Brazilian trust-funder more of a valuable contribution to our landscape than the dirt poor professor from North Carolina?

I always prefer to professors to trust-funders. What does that have to do with gentrification?

You can go ahead and dislike people for moving into the neighborhood....They personally have nothing to do with my rent...

Actually, they do. As we've discussed at length.

jonesingforadem, while i can see where youre coming from when you mention people who lack the ability to choose to wear bandanas, my clothing choices as a "hipster" have all been informed by my own poverty. growing up poor, and still living in poverty, i lacked the choice to wear the latest "stylish" preppy white clothing, and still do. when i hodgepodge these styles together it is becos this is what i can afford from an economic standpoint to wear to present myself. i save my money up to buy shoes and jeans new, but otherwise my choices are the ones available to me at the local second hand store. with what i have access to i create a look i find visually pleasing. i could probably mimic the latest preppy white styles by shopping at discount stores and buying fall apart polyester clothing, but i feel as tho id be more a part of systematic oppression if i bought clothing that i knew was made by women and children in sweatshops from petroleum based fabrics that harm the planet which disproportionately harms poor people.

i HATE that people get forced out of their neighborhoods. i hated being forced out of chicago, despite spending half my life there. i acknowledge that being forced out of the city was easier for me than for a poc who might not have access to a mother with a fiance with a good job or to a car making living outside of the city possible at all. i spend alot of my time trying to figure out where i fit in this system of privelege and oppression and i feel dismissed when you lump me in with the "please explain white privelege" crowd (tho i kno you specifically stated you did not just mean me)

my interest isnt whether wearing a bandana is ok, but whether context matters. so does context matter, or is it irrelevent? im trying so hard not to be an asshole, but there are things i will never be able to experience and one of those things is the inability to experience a poc's perception of the world and of a person like me.

i kno im one of the only white people at the local clinic. when i am at the clinic i wait without complaining in a way i wouldnt at a predominantly white medical practice becos i understand that getting upset at having to wait could be misconstrued as an expression of privelege. i realize that while, yes, i do live in poverty, i am blessed becos i am living in poverty as a white person which means i have a head start in the race out of poverty, and i am doubly blessed becos i am not trying to navigate the system as a mother, i only have to worry about my own well being and my own mouth to feed.

really, i wasnt trying to whine or debate, i was just curious as to context and if it means anything to the woc commenting here who are hurt by white appropriation.

jessilikewhoa,
I really didn't mean to single you out of the whole discussion - like I said, I've entered sort of at the very end, and one of your comments was that last one in line that struck me before I entered my own. There have been a lot of perspectives put forward in this string, which is a good thing - it's better to talk about these things than not to.

Thanks JonesingforaDem. Thank you to all of you that put so much time into this comments thread.

Organizing work, community building and anti-racist work is painful and takes time. It involves crying and literally tearing yourself inside to see things that we are systematically taught not to.

This conversation may have just made everyone mad and exhausted, but there is a lesson in it, even if it is subtle and happens after the fact.

Thanks for those being brave and explaining themselves so extensively and thoroughly, even when it is so fucking painful and frustrating when it feels like no matter what you say, people just don't get it.

I am going to shut down comments, but am totally open to continuing this conversation via email with a group of you that would like to continue.