Not to be a total meanie-but didn't you know that wearing high heels damages your body before you read this article? I mean, it's common knowledge that they are horrible for you. Women wear them because we are told that it makes us look "better" and sexier, and men like it.

I'm really curious about why you "love" high heels-what is there to love? The backaches, the blisters, or the inability to walk in inclement weather? I don't get it....

For the past four years I've been on my school's competitive speech team where it's a requirement that we "look professional" - and for the women that, unfortunately, means we have to wear high heels. We'll spend 8+ hours a day walking around in the highest heels we can manage all so we can "look the part" and win the tournament. The key to surviving these tournaments (aside from slipping a pair of flats into your bag) is to make your shoes an investment and pay the big bucks for them. Yeah, I own a couple of pairs of heels from Target and Payless, but most of my tournament shoes are worth at least $100 more than the knock-off shoes (not that I pay that much for them - I shop discount retailers like DSW or clearance racks) and the difference shows when at the end of the day my teammates can hardly stand and I'm still walking proud.

Four years of spending nearly every weekend in heels, plus years of wearing cheap heels before that and I've yet to develop any foot/leg/back problems.

Buggle, of course I knew they were bad for your feet--but the image just really brings it home.

As for why I love them...I just love the way they look, that they make me taller, etc. I'm actually more of a flats-wearer for everyday. But come party time I'm all about the high heels. I'm only human. ;)

Moriath-does that mean that if you and the other females didn't wear high heels, you wouldn't be allowed to compete? Or just that you think the highest heels sends a successful message?

I truly don't understand the obsession and fixation on high heels. To me, they are absolutely crazy. I don't understand the need to look taller. Why do you like to wear them for party time? I mean, what makes you feel like it's a must?

And what's with this whole "I like the way they look" thing? Of COURSE you like the way they look considering that every image we see of a desirable and acceptable woman is wearing heels....

High heels really get me riled up, especially cause whenever the topic comes up, women LEAP to the defense of heels. I really don't get it.

Actually, for me, flats cause more blisters and pain than most heels do! I guess my narrow feet strike again, grrr. So in terms of nice shoes for work, I really do have to go with something with elevation. (Hey, I'd love to wear sneakers to work...sigh) But I refuse to get super-high heels and anything that looks like I would break it or my ankle.

“And what's with this whole "I like the way they look" thing?�

You asked “I'm really curious about why you "love" high heels-what is there to love?� and she responded that she likes the look of them.
I don’t think Jessica is defending high heels so there is nothing to get riled up about, just yet.

Ugh. I hate heels. I used to love heel-style clogs (probably not the right term -- I mean the ones where the heels are fatter but designed in much the same way as heels). I was always rolling my ankles in them, and now I have hideous, hideous upper body problems which I'm pretty sure are a result of my former clog obsession. I can't even sleep on my side anymore because it hurts too much, and just in the last few days even sleeping on my back hurts...Hence, I've barely slept in the last week, I'm terrified and have no idea what to do to make myself better because nothing works. And it also puts me in a double bind because when I go to the doctor they just dismiss it as some silly female problem (all in my head, donchaknow!) and will prescribe me like a month's worth of physical therapy and have me drug myself up with muscle relaxants. It's awful, awful, awful...Anybody who says heels don't completely fuck up your body is completely insane, trust me.

Oh! I almost forgot -- I once traded shoes with my friend when we went out for lunch because she had to work and was wearing heels, which wasn't allowed (she was a server) and I was wearing a normal pair of black shoes. As I was walking to the bus in her shoes, I walked across the light rail tracks, my heel caught in the grooves on the tracks, and I went DOWN. I didn't have more than a few scrapes, but now I always shudder when I see women in heels running across the track (well, attempting to run) when there's a train coming.

I've always found heels uncomfortable and unsafe-looking ever since I spent seventh grade sitting next to a girl who wore heels every day, along with the knee and ankle braces necessitated by the fact that wearing heels made her trip or twist an ankle every week or so.

Thanks for posting the graphic, though! It'll be nice to have on hand the next time my boyfriend's mother asks me why I don't own a pair of heels. Now if you could get a nice graphic about the dangers of wearing makeup, I'll be all set! (As to why bf's mother feels the need to comment, while bf himself couldn't care less. . .?)

The nestbaby.com has "helpful tips" for pregnant women - one of their tips was if you have lower back pain during your 2nd trimester, nothing makes you feel better than high heels. Shocking, but not surprising.

Sojourner-I guess what I'm saying is that-if you are wearing heels, of COURSE you like how they look. It's kind of a non-answer. It's sort of like if someone asked my why I like wearing makeup sometimes. If I said "because I like it" that's not really an answer. An answer would be "I feel more attractive in it" or something. See what I'm saying? Not trying to jump down anyone's throat-but I've been thinking about heels lately and this is a chance for me to try to understand.

I've heard the "heels are more comfortable than other shoes" argument, and I always wonder-where the heck are you finding these horrible shoes? It's not just a choice between heels or flats, there are plenty of other styles of dress shoes that are appropriate for work. (Depending on where you work, of course)

Someone want to explain to me why the woman in the heels needs to be in a short skirt with a strappy top? Looks like a nice outfit, actually, but I don't see what exposing 80% of her skin has to do with how the shoes make her body bend. It'd bend the same way in a longer skirt or slacks.

I love heels! I know they are not great for you, but I wear them just about everyday for work, and I never have sore feet/back pain, etc. My family and friends all think I am nuts because I wear them just about everywhere. When I wear tennis shoes I can hardly keep my balance, and always end up with sore feet. I can even run a lot faster in heels and as for walking in inclement weather, I do better because I can dig the heel into the ground to steady myself. I know this sounds crazy, but I really am more comfortable in heels.

Buggle - Oh, we could compete, but it's all about looking the part. It may or may not be conscious on the part of the judges, but women tend to rank better when we're in skirts, heels and makeup.

Also, I wear them casually because I am short and it makes me feel more confident if the men that I work with on an everyday basis can't literally look straight ahead and not see me. So the only shoes I own that don't have some sort of heel/platform are sneakers. High heels make me feel more confident in myself, and isn't that what's important?

Micheyd - I feel the same way about flats :-D

Also, does in make a difference in the photo that the lady with great posture and flat shoes is standing still and the woman in the heels is walking?? Would there be a difference in weight distribution? Just an observation.

Moriath-so they are actually judging you on how well you conform to the female role? That's sad, that would make me SO MAD! Blech. Doesn't that bother you?

The only heels I wear regularly these days are for dancing. I do ballroom dancing, and having heels can actually help tremendously /because/ of the skewed weight balance and posture.

I broke my foot in high heels. I have no business wearing them, and only do it when absolutely necessary. My boyfriend gets really mad that I insist on keeping the foot-breaking shoes. It's been 2 years, but I still don't wear them. Maybe one of these days (like...if I can go a whole stinkin' week without stumbling on my stairs?) I'll have the nerve to wear them again.

The diagram makes abundantly clear to anyone who didn't know already exactly why high heels are considered "sexy" on women--they force you to arch your back so your breasts and ass are sticking out. Is anyone surprised?

I avoid high heels like the plague. I own maybe 2 pairs of pumps, one of which I bought to wear to a wedding and haven't worn since.
For work, I wear boots in the winter (which have about a 2" block heel, I confess) and various maryjane-style flats in summer.
But I would never, ever wear stiletto-style heels to work. Ouch!

I will admit to owning a single pair of 5" black patent leather fetish "fuck me" heels, but I don't wear those in *ahem* public. ;)

I wear heels for special occasions and if I'm going out, especially with my boyfriend. The rest of the time I'm almost perpetually in Birkenstocks because I like them too. But as for why I like heels? Well, I hit 5' 4" at age 12 and got told by all my relative how tall and beautiful I'd get and... the tall never happened. Wearing heels makes me feel like the height I always thought I should be. And I tend to wear them more around my boyfriend because he's a clear foot taller than me, so it's nice to be a little closer to him.

I will agree that expensive heels make a difference. I've spent almost 5 hours walking around in 4 inch high Steve Maddens with barely a twinge, but my $10 shoes from target have me sitting down every 20 minutes or so. And DSW is a godsend, especially if you've got an unusual shoe size.

No argument that heels are bad for you, but why is she standing with her knees bent in the second picture? I don't stand like that in heels, I don't know anyone that does. Just weird, weird, weird.

I wear block heels as well, if I'm adding height, but I doubt it matters in terms of the pressure on the balls of your feet. You're just less likely to go over on them. Though I still do. I go over in flats. Unless I've been drinking.

I despise high heels. At 5'8" I feel I'm tall enough and no matter the brand or the price I have never found a comfortable pair of high heels. My feet give out at about 30 minutes, so that when I'm in a situation where I *must* wear heels I usually reserve that for when I know I'll be sitting so that I can slip them off and them put them back on as needed.

And whenever I go to clubs I wear my comfortable shoes, that way I can dance longer because my thighs aren't burning from being in high heels.

As for the back pain issue, it varies for most women but typically it does take years of continuous wear to affect the body. Usually younger women are fine it's not until you get into your 40s/50s that the real problems happen. And that's not for everyone, some women can go forever wearing high heels and be fine.

I'm fat. I hate high heals. This just gives me more excuses not to wear those archaic, Victorian torture devices.

I will honestly only wear high, skinny heels if I'm doing burlesque and it's part of my skit, or, on rare occasions when I want to get all dressed up and then only if I know I'll be with my bf or friends all night long.

I will never wear heels if I think I might be walking somewhere alone that evening b/c heels make me feel vulnerable--I can't outrun someone in them, I'd be more off-balance if someone shoved me from behind, etc.

The nestbaby.com has "helpful tips" for pregnant women - one of their tips was if you have lower back pain during your 2nd trimester, nothing makes you feel better than high heels. Shocking, but not surprising.

Wait, c13c, I thought we were supposed to be BAREFOOT and pregnant! ;)

I despise high heels. At 5'8" I feel I'm tall enough and no matter the brand or the price I have never found a comfortable pair of high heels. My feet give out at about 30 minutes, so that when I'm in a situation where I *must* wear heels I usually reserve that for when I know I'll be sitting so that I can slip them off and them put them back on as needed.

Ditto.

I also find the rest of Ultramagnus's post among the best of thread so far. :-)

Good point, Bluebird, but how are you supposed to stay sexxay when you're pregnant if you're barefoot??

By the way, though UltraMagnus's analyses of her own body's reaction to heels sounds like mine, the funny thing is that this last weekend I thought about starting to practice dancing in heels more often.

Now I'll probably go back to, "Eh, just stand on your toes in flexible flats or barefoot."

Only I don't know if that's any better...same effects on the legs.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. Why can't I just have a body that makes it comfortable to do unwise stuff to it?!

So, what is it about heels that signifies a "special occasion" or being "dressed up?"

I just don't get why anyone would bother wearing shoes that they can't exactly walk in. Isn't that the point of shoes? To protect your feet from the ground?

I was at a wedding this weekend, and some of the women were in heels, and were complaining that they couldn't take pictures in the grass, because they couldn't actually WALK on the grass. I'd say any shoe that limits how you can walk, where you can walk, how fast you can walk, etc., is not much of a shoe.

But still I hear about half of you saying you enjoy wearing heels at times. Still don't get it. I mean, hey-everyone can do what they want, I just don't get it. What is it that you GAIN from wearing heels?

So far people have listed: height, being judged more highly, and liking the way you look in them.

Buggle--I think height is a HUGE one for people. That's probably a large part of "why women at that wedding who were in heels yet wearing heels that DID allow them to walk on the grass" wore the heels they did, Buggle.

Hm, the height thing annoys me to no end-I'm 5'10, and all my life I've heard from other women "Oh, I wish I was that tall!" Um, no you really don't. You wish you were a few inches taller, maybe a nice 5'7 or 5'8 tops. In shoes I'm 6' tall. It drives me NUTSO when women tell me how much they wish they were taller. I'm not sure what this is all about. Why do women want to look taller? And do they think they really do look taller? To me, they just look like a woman in heels. Not taller at all. I mean, if you want to look taller, poof up your hair, or wear a big tall hat.

Buggle, just as I can't imagine what it must be like to be 5'10", you obviously can't imagine what it must be like to 5'3". I'm short *and* overweight; when I wear heels (especially in slacks or jeans) that also have pointier toes, the wedge of the toe and the higher heel create an elongating effect, making my leg look longer, therefore making it look like my bulk is distributed over a longer body. In short, a slimming effect.

I can appreciate your dislike for the shoes (I bought a pair today that I'm going to return because they pass my pain/balance threshold), but your personal experience does not extrapolate. Obviously; there have been myriad commenters here saying, "I don't mind them for X reason", and well... the fact that a person may want to wear a kind of shoe that you don't like doesn't make them insane.

If anyone has the direct link to the page on www.thebabynest.com about high heels being good in the 2nd trimester, I'd love to have it so I can write to them.

High heels are never good during pregnancy. I'm a prenatal/postnatal massage therapist and see an incredible number of women who are having back pain during their pregnancies that could be resolved if they would stop wearing heels. Heels definitely throw the back out of alignment, particularly during pregnancy.

I didn't say anyone is insane.

The height thing is I think really the slim thing-like in Andrea's example. It's not really about looking taller, it's about looking thinner. So again, women are doing painful things to their bodies in order to try to live up to some BS beauty standards.

And actually, I HAVE been 5'3, so I do know what it's like :) That was in 6th grade though, so it's a bit different... :)

Oh also, until I see men wearing heels all the time, then I'll continue to say heels are stupid, sexist pieces of crap, meant to disable women. Cause, if heels were so great, wouldn't men be wearing them? I know a LOT of men who'd love to be taller...

And actually, I HAVE been 5'3, so I do know what it's like :) That was in 6th grade though, so it's a bit different... :)

Lol, I hadn't thought of that. :o)

I agree about the BS beauty standards -- I actually wrote about heels on my own blog not too long ago. I think it's important to remember that in this day and age, heels exist for women to wear (but not for men to wear) solely to make one's legs live up to a societally (patriarchally?) set standard. On the other hand, I don't want to deny the fact that there are as many reasons to want to apply that standard to oneself as there are women who wear high heels, if that makes sense.

Recognize the framework, and then understand how you yourself move within it (even if that movement is aimed at trying to break the framework apart).

Dansko Sport Clogs all the way baby! Also, if you sleep on your side it helps to stick a small pillow between your knees...some things that I swear by :P

Most heels I've ever worn have had horrible arm support.

There are two exceptions:
The heels I wear to my exotic dancing job. Ellies platforms have excellent arch support and padded insoles.
My black patent leather Goth June Cleaver heels.

agm728, I found it - took a bit, and then I thought for a second that maybe I had read it wrong, but no, it's still there in all of its messed-up glory...

http://tinyurl.com/35mjte

And do they think they really do look taller? To me, they just look like a woman in heels.

Well, if you're wearing heels and a pair of pants that goes over the heel so it ends about a half-inch off the ground, it does in fact look like your leg goes down that far. But even if I wore a pair of three-inch heels, I'd barely be 5'5, so I don't really care.

I do like the way heels look with certain outfits, and I like wearing strappy sandals and flip-flops in the summer. I just like wiggling my toes. But I never wear them unless I'm going to be sitting for most of the day/evening, and I definitely don't wear them when I'm carrying anything heavy.

"I will admit to owning a single pair of 5" black patent leather fetish "fuck me" heels, but I don't wear those in *ahem* public. ;)"

Be still my beating heart.

Clicked too soon.

I like them because, yes, they make my legs look longer, and this turns me on as well as my partner. I like the way I appear in them. Because they make my man happy doesn't mean I should stop wearing them. He dresses to please me, as well.

Buggle - yes, I am in part being judged on the way I look. Everybody who participates in forensics is. The men generally wear dark suits with long sleeve shirts and yes, even shoes with slight heels in order to "look the part." And the dark suits + long sleeves is hell when you consider that our 5 day national tournament was held in Georgia this year.

And your heels aren't "about looking taller, it's about looking thinner" doesn't hold water for me - I'm 5' 1" and definitely on the thin side. Nope, I'm committed to heels because of the height/confidence factor.

And actually, heels were initially created for men to wear. Through at least the 18th century in Europe, men of the aristocracy would wear high heels, and like I mentioned earlier, even today many men's dress shoes have a slight heel, effectively rendering the shoe useless for doing much more than making the wearer taller.

Ultramagnus, you are my shoe sister, clearly. I'd also add that for most people, back problems may take a while to develop, but I had to give up wearing heels entirely when I was 24 and developed knees that ached constantly, especially when it rained. Since I've given up the heels (or saved them for special occasions only), they only ache when it's been raining for three or four days straight. Which is, you know, nicer.

Buggle, I don't really get what you're asking. You asked why people wear high heels. They've told you. The reasons aren't ones that make you want to wear heels, which is probably better for your overall health, but that doesn't mean that they aren't powerful reasons. The fact is that we're socialized to identify height with power, and to associate high heels with feminine beauty and formalwear.

They're pretty. I own heels that I never wear because they're pretty and I like owning them. *shrug*

Plus, being only 5' tall means being shorter than pretty much everyone except little brats. Even my flats aren't flats, they're 1" platforms with a 2" incline.

Oh and Moriath, I totally know what you're talking about, having been on a speech and debate team myself. I even remember once, two girls was going to either contro or parli nationals being held in some random Southern state (we're in California) and our [awesomely progressive female feminist] coach at the time telling them that they should wear conservative suits with really long skirts, and pearls(!) to appeal to those crazy judges down there.

And finally, I hate hate hate it when teenage/young adult women wear high heels when they do not know how to walk in them. You've seen the type, especially in high school and college. They think they're being sexy wobbling down the street with their knees bent and their balance flailing all over the place (much like the illustration above). It's like, please, honey, if you don't know how to walk in them, don't wear them. And if you insist on wearing them, at least practice walking in your room with a straight posture. With a book on your head.

It's too bad that they showed the woman in heels moving, it makes her bend her knees which fucks up the posture line, which is the entire point of the illustration. Heels fuck up posture enough without having to exaggerate the effect.

I thought the point was that when wearing heels, you kind of have to bend your knees to stay balanced. But it's possible that I just don't know how to stand or walk in the nasty things.

Gah. Further proof that I'm right and my mother is wrong - heels are bad for you.

I second the desire for a "makeup = bad for you" graphic. :)

I'm 5'8" and I'm a feminist, and I wear heels sometimes (I kinda like being taller than everyone in the room). I also have kick ass posture and know how to walk correctly in them. I'm pretty sure that people out there who have bad posture and wear flats all the time are going to end up with worse problems then I'll ever have. I have to say, I really hate all that "you're a bad feminist if you wear heels, or lipstick, or shave your legs, etc" crap.

Oh, and men *do* wear heels- in fact, it was a drag queen who taught me how to walk in them!

As a 5'10 woman, I will admit that ONE of the reasons I decided to steer my career towards freelance was because I cannot forsee myself wearing heels a couple times a week in a professional office. I know not everyone wears them, but as other posters have mentioned, it seems to be the expected wardrobe item.

I love wearing my flip-flips, and my the most professsional I get are a pair of "boat-shoes" (loafers). Not exactly the most hip 27 year old...but atleast I'm happy!!

Also- a question- if tall women feel they shouldn't wear heels because men prefer women to be shorter than they are, isn't that conforming just as much as *wearing* heels is?

Shyva - I think everyone on my coaching staff, male or female, is a huge feminist. I think it's a prerequisite for coaching the team, lol, and still they encourage use to dress as I (and you) described (yes, my freshmen year we were all encouraged to ask our families for a set of pearls for various holidays. I ended up buying myself a faux pearl choker with rhinestones in order to keep up appearances yet still have a flair of individuality).

And I also tell all of the women on the team that they need to practice in their heels as well as you're using muscles that aren't exercised in a pair of sneakers, plus there's the whole balance thing. There is nothing more awkward than seeing someone stumble (both physically and verbally) in the middle of a speech because of her shoes!

I have a hard enough time finding *flats* that don't hurt my feet. I wear high heels like I wear lingerie -- it's sex fetish gear, that's all. I wouldn't wear them if I had to walk somewhere.

I have worn very small heels in the past when I couldn't find any women's dress shoes that had no heels. Then I decided that the solution was to copy men's dress shoes, and I found that Easy Spirit sells shoes for women that basically look just like dress shoes for men. Unless I'm in boots, which equalize the weight distribution enough that I can tolerate a small heel, I won't wear any greater heel than you'd find on men's shoes, at least not in public.

What really bothers me is that high heels are so assumed as "proper business attire". There are too few low heel or no heel options that work with that assumed corporate look.

When I developed horrible back problems associated with degenerative arthritis I couldn't wear even low heels every day. The only shoes that I could deal with were running shoes and birkenstocks. Both totally off limits for proper work attire in my profession. If I decide to go back to working corporate I don't know what I would do. I simply can't wear most of the even low heeled business attire type shoes for more than a few hours on rare occasions.

So the lack of decent comfortable options combined with the hard rule of what passes for proper women's footwear can be a real problem.

Ponies and Rainbows,

If your doctor is not helping you find another doctor. I had two doctors who gave me the silly woman all in her head routine while I got worse and worse. I sought help elsewhere and two specialists who actually listened to me found I had a couple of major medical problems that were causing my symptoms the other two thought were just me being a silly female.

I wear heels almost exclusively unless I'm wearing shorts or capris. I love them. I love the way they look on my feet, I love the way they make my clothes hang, I love how long they make my legs look, I love how much easier they make it to kiss my 6 ft 2 in boyfriend, and I love walking in them. I'm more comfortable walking in heels than in flats, and even when barefoot I have a tendency to walk on my toes.

They're not for everyone, but there's nothing wrong with those of us who do love them.

I've done some research on high heels and biomechanics - just a bit for a project. They definitely alter your posture, but they also increase calculated knee joint loads (as well as ankle joint loads). 2 out of 3 cases of patellar arthritis occurs in women, and there may be sociological factors (like high heel usage) to account for it.

And the width of the heel has been shown to make no difference in the increased joint loads, but it does make a difference in balance (no big surprise).

To those people who find heels the most comfortable, it's because your body has adapted to the new loading pattern (like your muscles adapt to lifting weights). It's been shown that regular wearers have a different gait/posture pattern than non-habitual wearers.

For me, they make my knees ache. I think a nice pair of flat-soled boots make for great dressy footwear. Then again I live in the polar fleece capitol of the world, where you can get away with a lot more when dressing up.

"I was at a wedding this weekend, and some of the women were in heels, and were complaining that they couldn't take pictures in the grass, because they couldn't actually WALK on the grass."

Whenever I get invited to a summer wedding, I wear wedges instead of heels! I love the wedge - you get the height AND more stability.

Um, Aerosoles? I bought a pair of heeled sandals last year (mid-level) with the cushiony insole and they became my main summer shoes. They felt like slippers, and looked awesome.

I hate heels, but I hate even more the "You might be a bad feminist if...." blame game based on what a woman wears or how she fucks or where she works.

To me, feminism is about choice. If it makes you happy, do it. If it kills your back and feet but you don't mind, well, you're a "big girl" now so have at it. :)

This is such an interesting topic. I gave up heels about a year ago and haven't looked back. I used to wear them constantly for work and work socializing, believing I looked more professionally attired, but they always caused me pain and discomfort. Then it dawned on me that I was foot binding myself by wearing them. I was in pain, slow walking, unbalanced and often caught the heels in places. Some women can wear heels in perfect comfort but I'm not one of them. So I gave them up and now I actually feel more professional in well tailored trousers and chic flats than I ever did in a skirt and heels, and not dealing with foot pain during a long day is a real boost. Every individual is different but that's my personal experience and I won't go back to heels. Even for formal occassions I have a pair or two of beautiful, couture flats.

As per looking and feeling good, I feel I look much cuter and down to earth, less spiky. One day, months after I'd given up heels, my husband said randomly to me as we were walking down the street, "When you're not in heels you have a beautiful Grecian sway to your walk". I was pretty happy with that.

Your husband gives the best compliments ever!

It's interesting that a lot of women here are commenting about heels in the work place. I know the career center at my college just put out little flyers about what "business casual" and "business professional" should look like fo rmen and women. For the women, heels were only listed on the "professional" side, and it recommended a heel of 1 1/2 inches or less. I'm betting it's to combat the wobbly factor, better to wear slightly lower heels and walk confidently than high heels and teeter, especially in an interview.

I've never had a problem walking in heels, sometimes I'll forget I have them on. But I know they cause a lot of pain, and I don't think any dress code, spoken or unspoken, should force women to wear them. It's absurd to think that a woman can't be professional in flats. The pair of shoes I have that's worth the most is a pair of Salvadore Ferragamo leather loafers, no heel at all on them. I got them for $3.15 at goodwill, never worn. None of my heels are anywhere near as dressy as those puppies.

Anotheroneofthosedamned has a great point!! Why on earth is the illustration in dowdy pants when wearing flats, and wearing a thigh-high and strapless dress in heels?

It's like the article has a double message: flats are comfy but boring; the only path to sexiness is self-injury. Sheesh.

I like heels for exactly the reason they were created in the first place: They make me look taller and thinner. I may not be thinking about it consciously every time I put a pair on, but I'm completely aware that heels help me fit the Beauty Mold.

That said, I'm not going to stop wearing them; I'm just not going to claim they are some kind of empowerful feminist statement. It's too exhausting to fight every battle every time, and we all give in to different ones. Me? I shave my legs and wear heels, but I'm not going to pretend it's motivated purely by personal desire.

Buggle, I find your first comment completely dismissive. You act like you know every woman's reasons for wearing high heels, including Jessica's:

Women wear them because we are told that it makes us look "better" and sexier, and men like it.

That kind of dismissive tone might be why so many people have leapt to the defense of high heels. For me, they're a tradeoff; I like the way they look but don't want to walk around all day in them, so I'll wear sneakers for walking and put them on if/when I'm going out and if I feel like it. But the notion that women would only wear heels because we're told to and because "men like it" smacks to me of a very simple-minded, there-there, you-can't-make-your-own-decisions way of thinking.

I don't think anyone's arguing that heels are good for you, but thinking women, feminists even, do sometimes wear heels. Shocking to some of you, perhaps, but true. I'm not saying that you or anyone else needs to "get it" and I've found the variety of responses to this post interesting, it just seems like you're predisposed to dismiss anyone's answers if they say they do opt to wear heels. I'm with Erin. I don't think heels should be mandatory or encouraged, but we shouldn't be made to feel like we're simply being duped if we wear them.

Oh, and by the way? Some men do wear high heels; they're called drag queens.

I'm a guy, and I think heels are completely ridiculous. They're like reverse clown-shoes. Even worse are the heels with the really pointy toes. I get on an elevator with a girl wearing them and I have to button my lip to keep from saying "you must have some really pointy feet."

Chuck the heels. Let women who want to attract the type of guys who like their women in heels to the women who want to attract the type of guys who like their women in heels.

He sure does, EG. I think it comes from being in tune with what is naturally attractive as opposed to what is artificially attractive. We all go in for articial trappings at times: heels, makeup, hair dye, plucked eyebrows, lifty uppy bras. We have options though. We can religiously conform to an invented beauty standard without giving it any thought, or we can take control and utilize these things as tools that are available to us. I don't wear make up often but sometimes if I feel blah in the morning, a spot of eye makeup, like a cup of coffee, or a spontaneous chat with the bus driver, can offer a little pick me up and I think some girls get the same boost from a nifty pair of heels. I don't think heels or make up or a good hair stylist should be mandatory, nor do I think they should be eschewed, but I think women should use them in a way that helps rather than hinders them.

I thought the point was that when wearing heels, you kind of have to bend your knees to stay balanced.

EG, if you know how to walk in them, you don't bend your knees any more than you would when walking normally. *shrug* It's like, if you simply walk on your tiptoes, you don't bend your knees constantly through the motion (for one, jazz and ballet would look really ugly if that was the case), you bend and straighten as you walk. Same with heels. It's just that people who don't know how to walk in heels keep their knees bent constantly through the motion of walking (like the picture above), making them look ridiculous, swaying their hips all over the place and wobbling in general.

Whoever posted about the increased impact on the knees and ankles, however, I totally believe that. My knees are fine, but I know that after a day of walking around in my boots in the winter (and those are barely 3") my already not-so-strong ankles are killing me.

Just wanted to point out, though the article focuses on high heels it points out that other types of shoes are bad for you too. Flip flops, ballet flats... lots of shoes are poorly made or have little arch support. So if the main objection to high heels is that they can cause foot, leg, and back problems, the same thing goes for most shoes out there. Anyone who runs knows how things can go wrong if you're wearing running shoes that aren't right for you or broken down. Wear the shoes that make you happy. For me, sometimes that means heels, sometimes flip flops, and sometimes sneakers.

Also, the two pictures are probably in different positions to accentuate the differences between the two. Standing still in heels the shift might not be noticeable, walking is where you see the real difference since you can't flex your ankle like you need to to get a good push off the stance leg and you have to flex your back to bring back your center of mass.

"Oh also, until I see men wearing heels all the time,"

Didn't rich European men do that in the 1500s?

As for my shoes, my shoe size is 8.5W (no pointy toes for me!). This past winter the only boots I could find that fit happened to also have a wide 1" heel. :/

"Just wanted to point out, though the article focuses on high heels it points out that other types of shoes are bad for you too. Flip flops, ballet flats... lots of shoes are poorly made or have little arch support. So if the main objection to high heels is that they can cause foot, leg, and back problems, the same thing goes for most shoes out there."

Yeah, what's with all the stupid shoes lately?

http://www.mirabilis.ca/archives/003084.html

"From the Hindustan Times: "Ancient shoes beat most modern footwear.

"Lined with hay and held together by a net of rough string, the leather shoes look bulky, itchy and downright uncomfortable.

"But if they were good enough for Oetzi, the 5,300-year-old man found in an alpine glacier in 1991, they're good enough for the modern foot, insists Petr Hlavacek, a Czech shoe expert who has created replicas, taken them out for a walk and pronounced them far better than most modern footwear.

"'These shoes are very comfortable. They are perfectly able to protect your feet against hard terrain, against hot temperatures, against cold temperatures,' he said, showing off the replicas in his office at Tomas Bata University in this eastern Czech town. Despite their flimsy leather soles, the shoes offer a good grip and superb shock absorption, and are blister-free, Hlavacek said. It's like going barefoot, 'only better,' he said. 'In the Oetzi shoes, you feel something like freedom, flexibility.' Scientists have already learned much from the hunter nicknamed Oetzi (rhymes with curtsey), that his last meal included venison, that he was killed by an arrow, and that he probably spent most of his life within about 50 miles (80 kilometers) of where his body was found..."

I wonder how it affects overall movement/exercise/health as well. I read recently that when women wear comfortable clothes they walk at least a half mile more during the course of an average day than when they're in more restrictive clothing. (Duh, but I don't know how valid the statistic is) I would assume the same thing holds for shoes. I know that when I wear heels at work(and I use the term loosely, I wear only chunk heels no more than 2" high) I avoid a lot of walking I normally do; I don't go to the water fountain as often, I put off certain errands, I don't pace as much when I lecture. That could have quite a cumulative anti-health effect over time.

I'm not a fan of heels, but as for why women want to be taller, for me it's about being able to meet people's eyes. There's something very infantilizing about having to look up to someone in a conversation (I am 5'2" and I do it all the time) and it is appealing to be able to avoid it, especially in a professional setting.

Personally, I love heels...I'm another one of the "short girls", and I also like how my legs look when I wear them (suddenly, I look like I actually go to the gym). And people tell me I have really cute feet, so I always get compliments (almost always from other women, not men).

Nothing irritates me worse than someone who can't walk in heels...if you don't know how to walk in them, don't wear 'em. Watching someone's ankles/knees wobble while they are trying to look sexy in stilettos makes me nervous. I'm afraid she's going to break her neck...

I didn't wear heels for the first 25 years or so of my life because I thought it was an "anti-feminist" thing to do. Then I decided it was more "feminist" of me to make my own decision about how I wanted to look.

I have the same love/hate relationship with heels you do. When I worked as an information graphics journalist at the Wall Street Journal I started working on a graphic about different high-heeled shoe comfort technologies like Insolia, but had trouble figuring out exactly how they were supposed to work.

I hardly ever wear heels (especially cause I'm in physical therapy for back pain, ouch!), but I do love them dearly, especially the adorable retro round-toed variety.

Anyway, when in doubt, just LOP OFF YOUR TOES.

For whatever it's worth, the most comfortable pair of shoes I've ever owned were a pair of kitten-heels by Clarks.

Jane Minty mentioned Aerosoles -- I have a pair of black microfibre dress flats made by them, which are good enough to wear with a pinstriped pantsuit. It is possible to find flat business footwear, but you have to look for it.

I've given up on heels for all but the rarest occasions; I simply have no stamina in them. (I can understand professional women wanting to look their male colleagues in the eye, but for me the price would be constantly shifting my weight and being distracted by discomfort.) Admittedly I do miss the way that a pair of high-heeled boots allow you to stalk across a room with each step ringing out like a gunshot.

Oh, and Erica: thanks for the recommendation of Ellie shoes! We sell them at the adult store where I work, so it's good to have some consumer feedback.

"Also- a question- if tall women feel they shouldn't wear heels because men prefer women to be shorter than they are, isn't that conforming just as much as *wearing* heels is?"

I agree. I love wearing heels and I am 5'9" and I get a lot of comments about how tall I am and how I tower over people. People ask why I want to be so tall but I ignore it. Having high quality shoes whether it be heels or other makes a difference in comfort because I also wear flats almost every day but some are much more uncomfortable than heels due to quality. Also, I typically don't wear heels to work because I am at a university and I have to walk a lot. Heels don't equal professionalism to me. And I totally agree about knowing how to walk in heels. I cringe every time I see some undergrad wobbling across campus and it is not sexy (I'm guessing they went through that much pain to have sex appeal). I don't think women should be labeled "bad feminist" for their fashion choices...

/me shrugs

I wear my hiking boots everywhere. They're comfortable, waterproof, add to my meager height of five feet four inches, and keep my feet warm in the winter.

You know those ridiculous shoes they wore in the middle ages, where the toe turns up so far that fashions demanded that they eventually tie the toe of the shoe to the knee?

Well that is exactly how ridiculous high heels are. THose of you who are defending them are defending a CURRENT FASHION, just like upturned medieval shoes...you just THINK they look "good" because they are the fashion.

THey limit your movement and disfigure your body.

They also make you more of a target for rapists, (if you are in public). Rapists KNOW you cannot RUN in them. Even those of you who find them more COMFORTABLE cannot RUN in them. GO ahead, Try. I dare you! RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN!

Sometimes it is VERY hard to know where your tastes end and the Patriarchal bullshit starts. A good measurement is: Am I damaging (or altering) my body? If the answer is "yes", you might want to scrutinize that choice to see if your idea of "beautiful" might be the result of indoctrination.

Indoctrination: The invisible bullshit!

Ponies and Rainbows: I spent the good part of last year trying to convince the girls on my high school mock trial team not to wear high heels. I know several female attorneys, not a single one wears heels into court. I asked one of them, and they said that they have found that it actually makes people take them less seriously.

Janet (and all other women who wear heels *all* the time): I am worried about you.

Not because I don't like heels, because I do, about 5 evenings a year. Like someone else said: "I'm only human" I like what reminds me of other strong women in my life, and I love donning my grandmothers italian leather heels from the 50's and strutting around. I feel connected to her, as well as sexy.

But my great grandmother wore high heels every day of her life, to the point where her feet actually became deformed. She had to have a pair of heels next to her bed so she could go to the bathroom at night.

So Janet, you saying that you don't feel balanced in tennis shoes is really worrying. Have you asked yourself why you don't feel balanced when your feet are in their 'natural position'? Maybe you should see a podiatrist/chiropractor and make sure you aren't doing yourself any lasting damage.

Wow, I am surprised at the amount of hostility heels can cause. Personally I can't stand them. I've tried them on a couple of times, but I just can't seem to walk properly in them. I don't think, however, that my dislike for heels somehow makes me a better feminist than someone who wears them everyday.

There is a fine line between questioning someone's choices to gain a better understanding and judging. As feminists, shouldn't we be above the latter?

Oh, and by the way, most makeup IS bad for you. Anything with talc in it can permanently expand your pore walls, and even most of the new mainstream 'mineral makeup' still has talc in it. Nuetrogena's doesn't, and lots of health food stores ell mineral makeup without talc as well, but overall, you could definitely argue that makeup is bad for you.

Kmtberry:

Way to blow this out of fucking proportion.

What you're arguing is that there is no agency in taste. At all. Which is, pardon me saying it, bullshit.

I like the way my legs look in heels, and I like the way they frame my ankles. Surprisingly enough, I can discern between shoes I like, and shoes I don't like. For that matter, I am also perfectly capable of picking out the items I appreciate from the current "fashion" and the items I feel are silly, ridiculous, ugly and what have you.

Blah, blah, patriarchy. You can't invoke the patriarchy in a way that obliterates the agency of ALL women.

I agree: the pressure to wear heels in order to look professional is wrong and damaging. At the same time, crowing that wearing heels will get you raped is not only victim blaming, but patently ridiculous. Lots of clothes impede full range of movement, there is no need to single out shoes.

You don't like heels. Fine. You think they're torture instruments of some kind. Fine. That still does not give you the right to patronize, and to disparage women's choices. At all. Ever.

I did way more damage to my lower back carrying bookbags that I ever will by wearing heels three or four times a year. I did more "damage" to my body through piercings, should I therefore question what pushed me to get some? Oh, wait, I know: personal taste, which is no one's business but mine.

Thank you, Mael. I agree completely.

I don't wear stillettos. Why? Because I don't like the way they look on me feet, even though they're highly popular, especially for evening wear. But I do wear lots of other types of heels. I have heeled sandles on right now.

And Kmtberry? I can run in heels. I've done it before. Matter of fact, the other night I left my cell phone in a restroom stall at a movie theater. Not only did I run, but I ran through a crowd at high speed with lots of direction changes (to duck around slower moving people) and a flight of stairs. (My phone is very important to me, it has my life in it.)

When you know how to handle the heels, there's very little you can't do in them. Although I wouldn't recommend rock climbing.

I'm 6' and I like wearing heels at work. At my height, it's almost gender bending to do so, since I'm much taller than most of the men I meet. I'm sure if I took a poll, some people would prefer I not wear them, some are indifferent, and some are supportive. By my count, that's good or neutral on all fronts.

I pay careful attention to my body, and have an avid yoga practice. On the long walk to work, I wear walking sneakers, just like I would ride a bike. They then go in the bag, and I look the way I want to look during the workday.

Incidentally, my professional attire is more often than not menswear-inspired pants and clean-lined suits, so the heels are a kind of fashion contrast which so obviously it has little to do with externally-defined sexuality (I deserve men who only like high heels? Think of who you're talking about, and whether he'd really be interested in the 6'2 woman towering above him, or whether that guy would run screaming...) and everything to do with what I want to look like.

I know there are people who must think, upon seeing me, "now why would SHE want to do that, she's so TALL anyhow" as if there was a "tall enough" for women. So to them, I say, fuck you very much. I spent years slouching as a teen for this very reason, and now that I'm a grownup, I'll decide how tall is too tall for this woman-person, thanks.

Now if objectors can picture everything that extreme example, maybe they can give the women here who like heels another chance, and consider that it's entirely possible (and given that they're commenting on a feminist website-likely!) they're every bit as in control of the situation as I am, they just didn't happen to have been born six feet tall. The point is, we can't speculate on one another's particular experiences, so try to refrain from imposing general standards on what women should and shouldn't want. Because, hey, you might be wrong, and wearing flat shoes might, ironically, be less of an empowering move.

I have never understood heels, EVER. It took me a full 2 decades of life to figure out that being a tall woman is considered the cultural ideal. I don't know how I blocked it out, but it seems to have something to do with my ability to laugh at manly runway models. I now understand that Americans idealize maculinized or androgynous women.

Wait, wait, wait, before I get flamed: I think feminists in particular are careful to not step on other women's (blistered and bunioned) toes by hypocritically putting forth the notion of one body ideal. But it is equally as misogynistic to silently buy into this socialized bullshit that only masculinized runway/VS models are ideal. Studies have shown that women who are shorter than average are the most fertile (with 5'2'' being the height with maximal fertility/estrogen), and that fertility is highly correlated with height.

What do they do when women are going to grow "too tall?" They give them more estrogen. What do they give men who will be "too short?" Testosterone, of course! Why are we erasing dimorphism now? Why do you equate having a masculinized height with being respectable, serious, or sexy? Why is the ideal for both sexes to be more masculinized in this one respect?

The problem is that we still equate respecting one's mental abilities with certain male characteristics, i.e., height.

The fact that women who are 5'2'' on here say looking feminine is infantalizing and people don't respect you for looking more like a man is not your problem! It's a problem of socialization. By subjecting yourself to heels is irresponsible to other women who believe they should be implicitly given the same respect that men receive automatically, no matter how sexually dimorphic she appears.

I'd love to say that it's up to each individual woman's choice, but I think that women making this "choice" are deluding themselves by thinking they were totally free to make it. It was misogynistically manufactured by society, and it's irresponsible to other women to perpetuate it.

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not wearing heels to look tall. I'm 5 ft 6 in, which is about average. I admit that it makes it easier to look tall people (like my boyfriend or his dad or my best friend) in the eyes, which is a nice ease on neck strain, as they're all over six foot.

I'm good with either my natural height or my heel enhanced height. I don't feel short/tall either way. I just feel average in height.

Everyone who is against heels keeps trying to boil it down to one issue, and that's too simplistic. It's not just about height, or sexiness, or whatever. Most women who like heels like them for a wide variety of reasons, depending on the situation, the shoe, and the woman.

To try to boil everything down the way some of y'all are doing is ridiculous. And to say that women wearing heels does a disservice to other women is just plain silly. As with so many things, the key here is choice. Women need to have the choice to wear heels or not. That's all that really matters.

I'm another of those 5'10" women who has never learned how to walk in heels, beause I'm perfectly happy with my height, and have no desire to be over 6'. I must add my mom's reasoning on the subject, though. She always told me that heels make tall women look SHORTER, because you see a tall woman in heels, you think, "oh, she's not really that tall, she's just wearing heels". Um, ok, maybe, except for the standard deviation perception of height. Like, two inches difference isn't a big deal in the middle of the height ranges, but when you get to the extremes, its perceived as a much greater difference.

I've never understood why women choose to wear heels, when I do want to tower, I go for platforms, but I wouldn't ever say anything to an adult woman about what she chooses to wear in her personal life. I have, however, seriously chewed out women employees (or students, back in the day when I taught labs) who wore heels to work, since I'm in the chemical industry. Open-toed, flimsy shoes are completely inappropriate for safety reasons, as are skirts that don't cover the legs. Skin needs to be covered when you're working with or around chemicals, regardless of gender. I've never had men complain when I made them change their sandals or shorts, but some of the women still make me roll my eyes in retrospect. You're not at work to look cute, you're at work to get the job done safely.

A younger female who felt the need to wear heels that she complains about hating, I might say something, just because I know that I wasn't completely aware of how some of our "choices" are socialized when I was that age.

You want to know what's infantilizing? Having people belittle my decision to wear high heels.

I'm petite, 5'1", have long hair and wear a push up bra. There is no way that wearing heels that put me at 5'4" is making me "masculinized" or "androgynous." It's making me feel confident in myself (being able to look other people - men and women - in the eye is a huge bonus). Sure, sometimes they also make me feel prettier and sexier but any piece of pretty clothing will do that, and it's a great pick-me-up on days when I feel shitty.

Seriously, don't we have enough problems in the world that we don't need to be stabbing each other in the back by proclaiming another feminist's choice as bad?

Kmtberry:

You can make the same argument about wearing flip flops. They are bad for your feet and give no arch support, and you can't run in them. I can run much better in heels than I can in flip flops and some of my flats.

I don't think it's necessary for me to wear my running shoes wherever I go in case a rapist in out in public. Don't spin that in way that makes me seem like I condone not taking precautions or making yourself a target...

Just to clarify-I am certainly not trying to say anyone is more or less of a feminist because they wear heels or don't. We all make our choices and that's great that we can. Just because I personally don't think it's a great choice, doesn't mean I am "back-stabbing" anyone!

I'm not sure why a critique of high heels leads people to freak out and think that they are being called a bad feminist or something. I think it's just important to look at our choices and see how they've been influenced by various forces.

I agree about the other kinds of shoes that are so bad for you-flip flops and stuff. Shoes have become just a fashion thing, forgetting what they are actually supposed to be doing for us! I love my sneakers, I'd wear them all the time if I could!

And honestly, I feel bad for the short women posting here. I can sorta understand wanting to be up at eye level with people, but I tend to be way above eye level-so should I walk around on my knees? That would hurt a lot. I'm used to towering over most people, and it's not the best feeling ever, but I'm not going to make it worse by doing something to hurt me.

Yes, a very small minority of men wear heels a very small amount of the time. But, when I was on the train to work this morning I saw tons of women in heels, and nary a man in heels. That's just kinda silly. The point is-anything that only women do, that is painful and unnecessary-is suspect to me. And saying "well men wear them too" doesn't really cut it.

Again, I really don't care who wears what, although I feel bad for anyone who causes pain to themselves. Last night I was relating it to me plucking my eyebrows-I have for years, it doesn't hurt me, but still. I only do it because of this beauty standard. Do I like the way I look more? Well yeah, cause I've been sold on that lie. To not acknowledge that, and to say "oh I just love having smaller eyebrows!" wouldn't make much sense. But it doesn't make me a bad person or a bad feminist to pluck my eyebrows. (WEll, some might think so, but we all have to make our choices, I think it's just important to understand our motivation for such choices)

Ezzie-your post:
"

I like heels for exactly the reason they were created in the first place: They make me look taller and thinner. I may not be thinking about it consciously every time I put a pair on, but I'm completely aware that heels help me fit the Beauty Mold.

That said, I'm not going to stop wearing them; I'm just not going to claim they are some kind of empowerful feminist statement. It's too exhausting to fight every battle every time, and we all give in to different ones. Me? I shave my legs and wear heels, but I'm not going to pretend it's motivated purely by personal desire."

Says what I'm trying to say, in a much better and less rambling way :) Exactly!!! Hear hear!

Has anything ever been said on the subject of people who naturally walk on their toes as concerns preference for heels and even possible benefits thereof?

I'm a toe-walker, and I took to heels like I was born in them. Unless I'm on my feet all day long, my heels only touch the floor when I'm at rest anyway, so I wonder if jamming some tall heels under me isn't actually giving me *more* support than flats I toe-walk in anyway. I'd love to see some kind of study on the subject.

I think heels are sex incarnate. Those saying they're all about sacrificing practicality for looks, well, I suppose you wear a nice durable coverall to every party? Don't forget snowshoes so you can safely walk on any surface!

No, they aren't the healthiest shoe. And cookies aren't the healthiest food. Does this mean no cookies ever? No! Just take a page from Cookie Monster's new spiel; heels are a 'sometimes shoe'!

And suggesting that women only think things look good because men tell them they look good is, well, pretty male chauvenistic, isn't it? :P

Uh, I'm not trying to "stab feminists in the back," but I am pointing out that saying "everyone makes their own choices" often obscures important ways misogyny has been socialized.

WHY does it make you feel good?

Yeah.

And I don't recall ever saying that YOU were masculine, but obviously the denigration of a sexually dimorphic trait and the ideal being masculinized VS/runway models has plenty to do with the current beauty ideal--one that you have absorbed!

Bugle says:

I'm not sure why a critique of high heels leads people to freak out and think that they are being called a bad feminist or something.

We're not freaking out. But we are on the defensive, because people on this thread have either said or implied that we are bad feminists. It's also been said that we're mindlessly parroting the patriarchy party line, that we couldn't possibly think what we say we think without brainwashing, etc. etc. Wouldn't that make anybody a little defensive?

As far as Seamus and his masculinized theory, I really don't know where he's getting this. It is sexually ideal that women be short as opposed to tall? If that's so, what are you saying about average-sized or tall women? And how masculinized can you call a beauty ideal that involves tiny waists and big breasts anyway?

Again, I like heels because they feel comfortable on my feet (like A.S. Clark I'm a toe-walker anyway), because they make my clothes hang better, with cleaner lines, because I like the sound they make when I walk fast, because I can look the tall people I'm around in the eyes, because I can more easily lock lips with my boyfriend, blah blah blah. It's all been said.

Why does it have to be some big conspiracy? Some of you find heels uncomfortable. Some of you find them downright painful. I'm sorry a shoe exists that hurts you. But those of you who are translating that into a wider perspective that tries to straitjacket those of us who don't share your view into some sort of tools of the patriarchy... Get a grip. Seriously.

Sorry I didn't proof-read that last sentence, but I also want to add that the concept would make total sense to someone if we were talking about Asian women or any woman of color who felt culturally compelled to bleach her skin. Who is to say she doesn't have the freedom to alter herself any way that gives her self-esteem? I'm not denying her the freedom, but obviously the reason that she damages an organ of her body with chemicals has plenty to do with socialization. What's even more disturbing is that while my example has women emphasizing a sexually dimorphic trait, in America, we were socialized to have disdain for one of the most recognizable markers of high estrogen and low testosterone. It is thus misogynistic on multiple levels. Women should stop perpetuating stupid cultural notions for their own short-term gain.

Tell me, Seamus, have you read a single word written by a single woman here? Or do you just see the word "tall" say, "That fits my pre-conceived notions!" and go off to the races?

His? I'm naturally a 5'3'' 34DD-22-36 het woman, BTW. I am not some psycho-feminist straightjacketing(?) those who use tools of the patriarchy(?). I honestly don't claim to be some formal feminist; I haven't read Dworkin, McKinnon, Valenti ;P...any feminist scholar's work. I only found feminist blogs interesting lately because they represent sentiments I cannot find in people I know in real life. So, that said, as an OUTSIDER to women who formally refer to themselves as feminists, are well-read on the theories, have taken gender studies courses, etc.... I am disturbed that they haven't questioned things as much as a regular punk on the street has.

The studies charting the gradual masculinization of Western beauty ideals are extensive and well-documented (height, BMI, tubular body shape vs. hourglass shape). You say that a small-waisted ideal means it's not representative of masculinization, but it's the waist-to-hip ratio that matters as far as anthropometrics are concerned. The fact that the waist has to be small is indicative of a sad, narrowly-defined beauty ideal, but not fem v. masc.

I think feminists are afraid to state the obvious about this trend for fear that it'll be interpreted that there's something WRONG with tall women; imposing beauty standards on our gender is degrading and antithetical to most feminist theories (I would assume!). But you shoot yourselves in the foot by denying that the opposite is happening: the idealization of virilized women. That means the most estrogenic women are seen negatively and are supposed to conform to this misogynistic cultural undertow. Bullshit. I have enough trouble dealing with my reality: that a man is automatically afforded respect, authority, presumed to be more intelligent, capable, scientifically/mathematically oriented... I have always been these things, but I am treated differently because I have a very "feminine" figure. By internalizing the assumption that women will go out of their way to wear heels or lose enough weight to approximate the tubular body type of a 12 year old boy in order to be "taken seriously at work" means that "estrogenic" women are being culturally demeaned beyond comprehension-by men, the media, and even feminists, it seems. Being "estrogenic" isn't inherently infantalizing, but wearing heels in order to erase a sexually dimorphic trait to be taken more seriously perpetuates this underlying belief.

I know I'm talking about two different things, but I'm disturbed that women aren't looking at WHY they find these things to be self-esteem boosters!

I have read them, and you can see that most women in the 5'1''-5'4'' range say that they feel better about themselves in heels because it makes them taller. Why is that the ideal? I guess you never thought about it. That's what I'm putting out there.

It's comments like Seamus' the current beauty ideal--one that you have absorbed! and Women should stop perpetuating stupid cultural notions for their own short-term gain that make me feel attacked and like I'm begin considered a bad feminist - Seamus has no way of knowing what I have or have not absorbed - we exist as letters on a computer screen for eachother. And calling the cultural notions that I am allegedly buying in to stupid implies that I am also stupid by default, which I would argue against vehemently.

First off, I apologize for the gender confusion. I've only ever seen men use online names with Seamus in them.

Secondly: Again, you're not listening to the women who are wearing the shoes! Read the reasons they are giving you for why they wear them. Some are purely looks oriented, many are not. If you want to know why we wear the shoes, listen to us rather than telling us you know better than we do.

Also, I don't really care what the hormone argument is. Shorter women are not inherently more feminine than taller women, anymore than it's the other way around. Women are feminine by virtue of being women. Arguing that additional traits are required buys into the same notion as the beauty ideal you're arguing against, just in the other direction. I don't have to meet any particular ideal to be feminine. I already am.

I'd also like to state, just for the record, that I've never met a twelve-year-old boy with the breasts expected of your average Victoria's Secret model.

One final thought: If you wish to get along on this forum (and I see no reason why you couldn't) stop telling feminists (or any woman) what they think and why. Listen to what they say about what they think and why instead. You'll learn more, and make more friends.

I'm sorry, I am not attacking you. I don't know much about feminism except from some excerpts I've gotten in the last few months via Wikipedia (and some stuff Dworkin and her partner wrote). I think radical feminism happens to match up with my outlook on the world, although I have not been formally introduced to it. So sorry if I can't "talk the talk" among people who are more educated on gender studies.

I'll make my points in less radical language I guess, since the nature of the intraweb is to not be able to see I do it to spark debate, not outrage. What is the point of message boards if we can't debate this?! I won't use words like "stupid," and I won't say "bad feminist" because I am not even used to calling myself one. (I was naive and assumed EVERYONE was this archaic thing they call "feminist," because isn't it unquestionably true that women are equal? And men and women both believe this? Naive.)

Nobody said you can't debate. Moriath just said you sounded insulting and I said you should stop telling us what we think. Not the same thing.

By the way, I don't suppose it's occurred to you that there are advantages to being taller with the use of heels? I can reach the higher shelves, see in crowds better, small children scatter like quail before me.... (I'm kidding about that last part).

My point is that you're focusing exclusively on this one thing that fits what you already thought to the exclusion of everything else. You might want to consider the rest of it as well.

As a tall woman, I dislike heels; I don't need to be pushing six feet. I've interviewed with women who wear flats and pantsuits, with the result that I'm looking down at them with at least six inches to spare. Yeah, when I hang out with guys, it's nice, but I hate towering over people.

Furthermore, as a runner, I think my calves look plenty strong already; in heels, they just look manly, and, frankly, I don't like that.

Nevertheless, every skirt suit I own looks horrible without heels. The skirts are cut to a length where the calves look stumpy without the added length of heels. My big issue is with companies like Ann Taylor and Brooks Brothers who don't design skirt suits that can be worn with a low heel (1", maybe) or flats.

"Arguing that additional traits are required buys into the same notion as the beauty ideal you're arguing against, just in the other direction. I don't have to meet any particular ideal to be feminine."

I already stated that very sentiment in my post. Maybe you should read what I"M saying instead of telling me the same thing! And lots of women did state that they do it to make themselves taller. I will say it again, why is erasing dimorphism the ideal? I already stated that perpetuating one idea of what a woman should look like hurts women, which is why feminists won't address the obvious. What's obvious is that there is a specific ideal right now, and (at least SOME) women are kowtowing to it without realizing why they have internalized this as ugly vs. pretty. The secondary issue is that, even though my ideal for women is that there is NO constructed ideal, the one that currently exists exalts the erasure of sexual dimorphism. As an, uh, overtly dimorphic person, I am not excited that men, women, and especially feminists think nothing of women altering their appearances to reinforce an ideal that (studies prove, contrary to your opinion) is correlated with higher testosterone and lower estrogen.

It's a two-fold argument, which I have pointed out before, but you keep ignoring it while you accuse me of ignoring other posts.

I agree that those are advantages for wearing heels, which is why there is nothing inherently wrong with any fashion choice per se, but we don't live in a vacuum. This is not out of context. Are you really deluding yourself into believing that women GENERALLY wear them because they reach things on shelves better?

Seamus,

I think the problem lies in the fact that you may be operating under a different definition of "short." I have a few friends who are under 5' tall, and it is an actual PROBLEM. Many things in our society are constructed for people who are around my height, and being a full foot shorter than that is problematic. Clothes don't fit correctly - even petite ones. It is uncomfortable to stand in front of a counter at Panda Express, rent a car at Budget, or walk without tripping over unhemmed pants.

It isn't so much erasing sexual dimorphism as ensuring that you can function in society. Not being one, I won't speak for short women on this subject, but I know they have daily difficulties with it.

Extremely tall men have problems, too, and they would probably take an easy option to make themselves shorter, if such were possible. It's not about sexual dimorphism so much as functioning in a society that is designed for people between 5'5 and 6'1.

"By the way, I don't suppose it's occurred to you that there are advantages to being taller with the use of heels? I can reach the higher shelves, see in crowds better, small childr"

The problem with this justification is that platforms (is that what they're called? I've seen some amazingly short women wearing shoes with flat 2-4" thick soles) would accomplish all of these things without damaging posture or removing your ability to transverse grass.

So, oenophile, your argument is that high heels exist to make it easier for midgets to function in society? Is that really your take on high heels?

LMAO!!

That is, frankly, the most illogical interpretation of my comment imaginable.

I use computers to email people. Does that mean that computers exist solely to let people maintain superficial contact with others? Hell, no.

Likewise, the fact that heels can perform a useful function for some people does not mean that they exist solely for that purpose.

You're just illogical.

Also, I don't think society was designed for 5'5''+. I believe fashion and the media are gradually making that the cutoff point for what is minimally attractive (did you notice that pant seams get longer when the season's fashion dictates that women will presumably wear heels with all her pants? Not good if I don't kowtow to the prepubescent-boy ideal best represented by Gisele), which is a misogynistic construction growing ever more popular.

Seamus, you're missing the point again. Because I (and other feminists) recognize that we can be truly feminine as we are WE ARE NOT WEARING HEELS IN ORDER TO SEEM MORE FEMININE. Period. End of story. This is the part that you're not getting. Women who wear them to be taller are doing it because they want their heads to be further from the ground. Not because they want to meet some random beauty ideal.

You're taking a simple fact (in this case "heels make me taller") and reading a whole bunch into it ("which I like because it meets the beauty ideals I have so foolishly absorbed and am not honest enough to admit to.")

Take the facts we give you, all of them - not just the ones that fit your theory - and work from that.

"I already stated that perpetuating one idea of what a woman should look like hurts women, which is why feminists won't address the obvious."

"What's obvious is that there is a specific ideal right now, and (at least SOME) women are kowtowing to it without realizing why they have internalized this as ugly vs. pretty."

These are both examples of what I've been complaining about: you're telling women that you know better than they do what they think and why they do what they do. STOP IT.

Finally, I never claimed hormones had nothing to do with who was shorter. What I said was that it doesn't make someone with higher concentrations of hormones any more feminine than I am. More fertile, I suppose, is possible. But not a drop more feminine. Conversely, those who are taller (which you say is indicative of a higher testosterone standard) are no less feminine. We clear on that?

CoasttoCoast: As soon as I have difficulty transversing grass or problems with my posture, I'll let you know. Actually, I have really good posture. I can walk with a book on my head and everything. It's very impressive.

"It isn't so much erasing sexual dimorphism as ensuring that you can function in society."

No, please, tell me what you mean, if you are not implying that your interpretation of the cultural phenomenon of high heels is to better serve disabled people.

Dear Sexual Dimorphists,

Okay, 10-4. We hear you loud and clear. Shorter, curvaceous women, stand proud and stop trying to be men by wearing pumps. And when you accidentally do, be honest with yourself about what a tool you're being.

Now what can we, the hormonally-disabled not-the queens-of-babymaking-capacity women, we closer to the center of the spectrum (taller women, flat chested women, hairy women, deep voiced women) do to help your crusade? Stop modeling. Check. Can we wear heels? I mean, come on, a flat hairy woman in heels isn't going to get any farther away from estrogenny goodness, is she? Can we get a pass?

Look, I'm really sorry that you don't feel valued for your body type. It sucks, it really does. But you have to see that creating a new ideal isn't going to help anyone, and surely your experience of alienation can yield a little sympathy for those others you might demean with these one-size-fits-you essentialist notions.

While I dislike personally insulting people, I have to point out, Seamus, that you're really freakin stupid.

"Disabled" does not equate to "overly short" or "overly tall." Furthermore, one legitimate use of a product does not mean that the purpose of the product was that one use. Ever heard of side effects? A woman with PCO will use the Pill to prevent pain. PCO is a disease. Does that mean that the Pill was designed for disabled women? (Hint: the answer is HELL NO.)

Again, you're really illogical - painfully so. I don't like explaining elementary logic to people, so I'm going to exit this conversation and let someone else teach you how to be rational.

If you mean to say that I am somehow trying to rob women of their gender identities because being tall correlates with hormones, I think you are misreading my point: putting one body shape as a set ideal for women is fucked up. We agree on that. The SCIENTIFICALLY INVESTIGATED, REPEATEDLY VERIFIED, AND PAINFULLY OBVIOUS ("obvious" wasn't a slight, it was my point that no one addresses this aspect of the current beauty ideal) is that the gender ideal for women is that which can only be met by virilized women. I mean "virilized" in the most scientific, medical definition of human virilization, not some culturally constructed bullshit that has anything to do with what misogynist men have to say about women not being "real women." Why are feminists so averse to recognizing that this is the currently promoted beauty ideal, and that it has everything to do with diminishing the most highly correlated indicators of high estrogen and low testosterone?

Yes, there are plenty of functional uses for high heels that you can make up. I am not telling women they CAN"T wear high heels for functional reasons. You are deluding yourself if you think that's why women wear them, though. Honestly.

If "feeling closer to the ground" makes a woman feel bad, maybe she should examine why that is. I shouldn't have to be tall to feel powerful, respected, more able, more attractive. It gets on my nerves when feminist lawyers say they wear heels to be taken more seriously with more height; if your co-workers only take you more seriously because you approximate the looks of a man, perhaps they are too stupid to have anything to do with women in the first place. Juries, colleagues, clients should be going on the strength of your argument, not whether they feel too intimidated to physically fight you. This subconscious association between respect/masculine dimorphic traits is perpetuated by this fashion! Fuck shelf-reaching!

And I mean that in the most non-threatening way possible. I smile when I use exclamations points.

You really can't learn, can you? Of course, that assumes that you're trying.

"You are deluding yourself if you think that's why women wear them, though. Honestly."

I know why I wear heels. It has nothing to do with any of this crap you keep spouting. Honestly.

Am I saying that there's no woman on earth who wears heels because the women on the runway do? No, of course not. But there are also people who jump off of buildings believing they can fly. Doesn't mean we should judge the majority by them.

You are assuming that you know our minds better than we do. It is starting to piss me off. It's not your precise word choice. It's not your esclamation points. It's your assumptions that you know better than we do. Period.

And you don't have to feel bad about yourself for being short to want to be taller. I know tall people who want to be short. Short people who want to be tall. Redheads who want to be blondes and blondes who wish they had black hair and olive-toned skin. My boyfriend wants to put ten pounds on, I want to take ten pounds off. People sometimes wish to be different than they are, and you need to STOP reading so much into it.

No, really. Stop. Right now. Yes, you. Yes, you. Don't point to the guy next to you, I do mean you.

We know what we think. We know what we feel. We are aware of our strengths and our failings. You are not. Please stop assuming that you are.

I really don't know any other way to say this stuff. Does anybody have any crayons?

Sage, how many times do I have to repeat it? My goal isn't to create a new ideal! It's to point out that the current one is misogynistic not because narrowly defined ideals are inherently misogynistic, but because it is additionally promoting virilization. Feminists won't touch this because of what's happening right now: you think I want to promote my estrogennynous as the TRUE ideal. I have said over and over that there should be NO ideal, and that men (and women! and blog posters!) telling women what women should look like is fucked. What I have repeatedly stated, however, is that the current idealization towards tallness, WHICH MAYBE YOU DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO WHEN YOU WEAR HEELS, actually DOES have bearing on why many women subscribe to this trend. I have nothing against tall women. I honestly, until I was 21, never thought about height whatsoever. I don't think I even knew how tall I was. I think it's weird that it's imposed as a cultural beauty ideal, and that heels can play into it. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING!

And I love how even though I said sexists notions were stupid, I never called anyone stupid! Yet I got chastised for hurling insults, while I was the one *actually* insulted. It's no small wonder you get men flaming these sites. It's so easy to make some of you explode with nastiness.

Crayons? That's cute because it's insulting and infantalizing. Ironically, as far as childishness goes, you are the only one who has name-called, and I have not. The only ones who have been insulting here are you two. I can see why so many men hate feminists oh-so-very much. Anyway, I never said I know why YOU or the next girl or the feminist next to her wears heels, but I am pointing out a CULTURAL BEAUTY TREND THAT PLAYS A PART OF THIS THAT NO ONE POINTED OUT BEFORE. THIS MAY NOT AFFECT YOU, BUT NO ONE SEEMS TO WANT TO TALK ABOUT HOW THIS MAY PLAY A ROLE.

So when women wear heels, they are trying to look more manly, which is caving into the patriarchy...

...except when they do it to look more feminine, which is also caving into the patriarchy. (I've been told that my preference for flats indicates that I'm not comfortable with my femininity and that I have body issues.)

Anyone else notice a big problem with this logic? Anyone else pissed off about the fact that some people want to micromanage women's footwear?

shit, I didn't know my lady whiskers were the new cultural ideal! I guess I'll throw away the tweasers.

*ahem* A brief reminder. Your words:

"By subjecting yourself to heels is irresponsible to other women who believe they should be implicitly given the same respect that men receive automatically, no matter how sexually dimorphic she appears.

I'd love to say that it's up to each individual woman's choice, but I think that women making this "choice" are deluding themselves by thinking they were totally free to make it. It was misogynistically manufactured by society, and it's irresponsible to other women to perpetuate it."

Do you need me to point out where this is objectionable? Or how you were the one to come out here with the insulting language long before I, or anyone else, had said anything even vaguely rude to you?

The current beauty ideal conflates masculinized features (juxtaposed with fake-looking implants) with feminized features, so even though it sounds crazy when you put it that way...yes. The answer is yes!

I can't speak for whoever told you that crap about flats, so instead of accusing me of micromanaging footwear when I'm analyzing something about cultural notions of beauty, let's be clear that I have a different opinion than the anti-flat girl.

Men who are over 6'2 make 12% more annually than men under 6' tall.

We could try to re-engineer the human psyche, or we could work with what we have.

We can't make a world that really short people and really tall people fit into well. Ever tried driving a car designed for someone of a different size? Ever tried cutting vegetables on a counter that is too high for you?

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to look at people's biceps when you talk to them. Doesn't mean you are trying to be masculine; again, your lack of logic is appalling. There is a difference between correlation and causation, i.e. the correlation between testosterone and height and the desire of super-short women (and men) to not feel out of place in a society.

Where in there did I hurl nasty comments at you? You really don't think women should think twice about what beauty practices they should adopt or perpetuate if it is irresponsible to other women? If you disagree that this instance, i.e. heels, is not a suitable example of needing to think twice, then you argue for that point (which you did, in addition to outright obnoxiously insulting me).

You said that women who wear heels are delusional and irresponsible, and participating in misogyny. You can't say that's not what you said, because it's now in this thread in black-and-white twice.

If you can't see an insult there, then there really is no help for you at all. Jeez, you don't even read your own words, do you?

What you are saying is that the reason they feel out of place is because they can't use equipment designed for people of a different size. Again, I am not speaking for every person who feels like their height is wrong for other reasons than I am mentioning, but the perpetuation of masculinized women as the beauty standard is a confounding issue that no one else was addressing, and now I can fucking see why.

Wait...so a person who believes that the PREVAILING REASON PEOPLE WEAR HEELS IS TO FUNCTION BETTER when using equipment for large people is not deluding themselves? Like I said before, and I will say again, and again, and again: there is nothing inherently wrong with any fashion. See, it can even be useful, as illustrated in the improved-function-in-society counterexample. But it obviously, obviously, obviously carries other connotations, and YOU keep accusing me of thinking I "know better," but apparently no one else is willing to address this confounding variable that obviously affects more high-heel wearers than those who reason that it will help them "function better." High heels exist as functional tools. Way to ignore the current problems this new beauty trend (conflating masculinization as what passes for feminine beauty) brings. High heels are playing right into it to the detriment of women's health. The majority of girls do NOT use high heels as, uh, tools. The majority of women do not find them comfortable, or find themselves less likely to twist/break their ankle, develop fallen arches, osteoarthritis of the knees, etc., etc., etc...

And if you can find a way to discuss this that doesn't involve being insulting, or condescendingly telling us why women do things, or why women think things, maybe you'll find someone willing to have the conversation with you.

By the way, no one has stated that anything in particular is the prevailing reason for wearing heels but you. And your insulting statements came prior to the one about being too short to use things. So it's not an excuse.

You're in no position to play the wounded dove here, so give it a rest. I'm not buying it.

I am not telling anyone why any one individual does any one thing, but no one is addressing this other confounding factor that plays a role in why some women internalize this fashion choice. Why are you so averse to recognizing that? People keep denying it plays a role, and really, is it all about me bringing it up as a factor? There could be thousands of reasons a woman puts on high heels, but if you are ignoring socialized ideals, then you are ignoring the reason millions of women wear them, plain and simple.

But we can fantasize that women would have inevitably invented them on their own. Aesthetics aside, it IS a good functional tool-- so that they wouldn't have to bear the terribly demeaning physical burden of having to look upward to meet men's eyes, and whatnot.

Does it occur to you that no one wants to discuss this with you because they don't like the way you're approaching it, and them? You begin a conversation by damning a particular group of people with some pretty specific insults, and then you complain that no one wants to address your chosen topic.

I could be wrong, but there just might be a connection here.

I think the reason why no one is considering your pet issue of high heels masculinizing women is because your explanation of it isn't coming across in a sensical way. I don't see how one item of clothes (shoes) can make one both more masculine and feminine at once. *That* isn't making sense to me.

There is no one reason that women wear high heels. There are as many different reasons as there are women who wear heels. And I'll bet that a lot of women (as evidenced here) have multiple reasons. Wearing these shoes does not necessarily mean we are kowtowing to any particular cultural beauty standard.

And some feminists - even ones who ~gasp~ wear high heels! - have thought very carefully about this beauty standard. For a long time I absolutely refused to wear skirts or skinny heels, believing they were evil tools of the patriarchy. And then I realized that I was still letting the patriarchy define me. So I bought some skirts (I even wear mini skirts now) and fell in love with stiletto heels (chunky heels or platforms over one inch feel way too heavy and clumsy for me).

Hey, can anyone recommend some feminist writing for Seamus here that isn't toxic lunacy a la Dworkin & MacKinnon? Most of the books I've got here are specifically about sex rather than general feminism.

"shit, I didn't know my lady whiskers were the new cultural ideal!"

Off-topic for a moment: you too? I thought I might be the only fuzzy lady here.

"I guess I'll throw away the tweasers."

What are tweasers?

"I don't see how one item of clothes (shoes) can make one both more masculine and feminine at once."

Nitpick: "shoes" are *two* items of clothing, not one. :) Maybe shoes could make one look both more masculine and feminine at the same time if one wears a "men's" left shoe and a "women's" right shoe or vice versa? A kid in my middle school dressed like that for Halloween, except he wore half a dress too.

"Hey, can anyone recommend some feminist writing for Seamus here that isn't toxic lunacy a la Dworkin & MacKinnon?"

How about _The Mismeasure of Woman_ by Carol Tavris and _Woman_ by Natalie Angier?

Okay, I haven't read through all the updated comments, but I already stated that my perspective developed independently before I was influenced by any feminist advocates or scholars. From what I have found on the internet, my perspective appears to align most with Dworkin's and what little I've seen of MacKinnon's. Sorry if they are seen by mainstream feminists as insane or something, but I don't consider myself a mainstream feminist, and have never called myself one at all. I'm just happy to see something familiar to my experiences in print. The only thing I have a different outlook on than those radicals is sex--I don't think having the receptive genitalia necessarily makes sex an act of submission and subjugation. Again, take that summary with a grain of salt, as I haven't read their books.

So their perspectives are "lunacy," but denying that heels, which are not physically healthy for women, are *generally* adopted for non-functional purposes (i.e., reaching break pedals while driving), is not lunacy?
Here's another one: sex-work isn't INHERENTLY demeaning to women, but are you going to deny that for at least 90% of women in this day and age, it is? And that being degraded/abused/neglected are not often preceded by similar family circumstances? We don't live in a vacuum! The implications of certain objects and professions are inextricably tied to prevailing notions and laden with deeper meaning than just, "I need to reach the pedals." If we didn't unite and reject certain symbols of oppression, they would never be able to Hegelistically come back in style after they are capable of coming to "mean" something else, or nothing at all. This is one style that, after having fallen out of favor, I am not certain it ever would fully make a comeback.

Re: feminine/masculine at once--the new ideal for women is promoted as having fewer dimorphic sexual features. Virilized women are the new ideal. So, yes, people generally see runway models and supermodels and VS models as "ideal," in spite of their masculinization. In this way, the ideal is both masculine and feminine in that most people are not aware of this mindlessly-consumed body propaganda. Most people are shocked to hear that models are "masculinized," but that's what the new ideal calls for, and people are so oblivious to it. People are conflating these masculine body types as being the symbols of femininity, although I am not. I am also not saying there ought to be a symbol of femininity at all.

Now I see what's additionally confusing about this masc./femme conflation! It's best illustrated by the post's picture: her buttocks and breasts are pushed outward, and therefore some women might view heels as INCREASING markers of estrogen. I was coming from the perspective that most women who posted about physical changes they desired via heels had to do with height and not "my butt and boobs seem to be emphasized." My perspective can only address that issue, and, no, I can't account for the other effects. But if you'll notice, as far as posts about aesthetics go, they were about a way it diminishes dimorphism, not the ways they can superficially/dangerously increase it.

Sorry I didn't think about the sway-backed "feminizing" effect before--that does make it a weird argument!

I want to read the rest of the replies but I have been on this thing procrastinating on and off while doing an assignment, so I'll probably end up reading them later! Thanks for the input (the ones that don't childishly name-call, of course...).

Seamus -

I'll admit, the only things of MacKinnon and Dworkin I read have been their positions on sex (ha - pun not intended) which I think are completely off the wall and insane, and it sounds like you aren't entirely receptive to them, either so at least it's now becoming obvious that we have some common ground to work from. Always the first step :-) If you haven't already, I definitely suggest actually reading Dworkin and MacKinnon as well as other feminist writings. Today's feminism isn't as strictly regimented as it appears to have been in the past - for the most part, women who love heels and women who hate them can now both rightfully call themselves radical feminists. Feminism means something different for everyone and that's what's wonderful about it.

Thank you for further explaining your argument. I still don't entirely agree, but I definitely have a better understanding of it now. One question though - how long ago did this "new ideal" of masculinization come about? Because high heels have been around (for men and for women) for a loooooooong time. Super models have always been tall, but there has been fluctuation from the Twiggy ideal to Cindy Crawford to Kate Moss. All are tall women (who all probably wore heels on the runway at the very least) but their body types are all incredibly different.

Moriath, I also own high heels. Even if they look nice in pictures (socializedsocializedsocialized), they are unbearable to walk in for any reasonable length of time. I am a non-static human being, not an adorned subject of photography, no matter what kinds of clothing inventions I've been socialized to prefer.

I have a feeling if this were about the pleasure a man gets from having been imprinted early on with misogynistic porn, we would be allll for the guy to undo his conditioning and reimprint himself with non-misogynistic porn, no matter how pleasurable he found the degrading pictures.

I know you will jump down my throat for again implying that it's socialized and not a matter of the kind of free will that can only be divined when existing in a vacuum, but it's so obviously socialized, even if in THEORY it isn't for every woman who owns heels.

Hey, if the general population of women want to destroy her inner organs to have a fake 16 inch waist, or break the bones of their feet and not walk, or bleach the biggest organ of their body with carcinogens, who am I to say heels are bad for women? They're free to do all of the above, and as long as heels don't interfere with walking the way FOOT-BINDING did, it's a totally ridiculous argument, right?

I refuse to deny that other women being complicit in culturally-sanctioned unhealthy trends affects the ideals and the climate women have to deal with.

I am just waiting for men to start wearing push-up penis bras to sport peen-cleave, no matter what the potentially damaging effects to his testicles are. Once alllll the hung guys start doing it, it will become culturally normalized and preferred by women, and the hold-outs will finally feel the kind of pressure that women have to get from other women every day.

Please note, I am not the kind of girl who looks at women and thinks "OMG YOU AND YOUR HEELS FCCKKKKK YOU LOOOOOZER PATRaRakfALFKSJKKY PATRIARCHY!!!" I am the kind of girl who never notices how people choose to adorn themselves as I go about my business, as I have a tendency toward having tunnel-vision and bumping into things rather than consciously making inferences about people's motives as I go about my daily activities. But when you ask me about it logically, that's when I simply build this argument from what I see as logical. Maybe it has to do with being a geek, maybe not, but it really, sincerely doesn't make sense to me why people do this to themselves.

Supermodels have always been tall with a high waist-to-hip ratio, but not always the ideal. They used to be preferred because "feminine" women would divert attention to them instead of the clothes, so "masculine" women were like walking clothes hangers. They have evolved into the ideal, and pornography ideals have followed suit (Google any study about the gradual increase in markers of virilization over the years in pornography, fashion, models, Miss America contestants, etc.). I personally think that gay male fashion designers prefer the aesthetic because it approximates the look of a gangly teenage boy, but people will read that as homophobic even though I don't mean it that way. Homosexual fashion designers' aesthetic preferences have not been limited to clothing alone, but to human bodies. I don't need gay guys pushing their body ideals on the masses, but that's what they have effectively done. I also think women who have this body type and felt bad about it growing up should feel vindicated by the inclusion of their figure as sexy, but I hate how it's not just inclusiveness: everyone plays into it as the ideal, without even recognizing that it is being unconsciously conditioned. It pisses me off, because women should not have to approximate mens' looks in ANY way to be taken more seriously professionally, to feel more respected, etc. People also rate women with big boobs as being dumber automatically. (You can see where a career in physics or mathematics might lead me, can't you?)

On Kate and Cindy--their bodies are different, but they have the masculinized ideals in common. Cindy has bigger boobs, but she is highly masculinized otherwise. There was a trend in the 60s for waifs, then in the 80s Glamazons were in style, then heroin chic, etc. They were all masculinized. Check out femininebeauty.info for some studies if you don't want to google around, although I'll warn you that the site can be sexist in its own right by using nude models as comparisons, and the guy also picks and chooses which dimorphic traits are preferable based on his own biases, instead of holding a uniform position.

Do people continue with threads after the first day? Because I seriously have to submit this work before midnight! I have to go for good today. G'night!

Off-topic again: I just realized "tweasers" might be another spelling of "tweezers." Oops. :/

How nice. Here I thought that my body was just one of many variations of the female human form, but actually, it's masculine. It's "like a teenage boy's," and would only be of natural interest to a gay man. It's not as womanly as other women's bodies. Gee, thanks. And here I thought was a woman, with a woman's body that might be of interest to straight men and gay women.

The ideology of sexual dimorphism suggests that the more divergent male and female bodies are, the more "true" to type they are. I see no reason to assume this. What the hell makes my body less womanly than it would be if I had large breasts? You either have breasts or you don't. It's their presence that has to do one's "womanliness," not their size.

Seamus, I take issue with your assumption that somehow, we don't recognize that admiring the look of heels has to do with cultural conditioning. All standards of beauty have to do with cultural conditioning (and yes, I've read those studies about facial symmetry, and I don't find them convincing, for a variety of reasons I can go into at another time). You're not bringing enlightenment to us poor benighted fools. Your assumption that it is possible to just undo such conditioning and replace it with conditioning nearer and dearer to your own system of values strikes me as breathtakingly arrogant. It's never that simple. We're born into and grown up in a certain culture, with a certain set of values. It is simply not possible to erase those images and start over: for one thing, we're not children any more, and for another, socialization and cultural appreciation of beauty are rather complex processes.

Most feminists have to do a set of cost-benefits assessments in their own lives. For a couple years I didn't shave my legs or armpits, because of a principled antipathy to what I understood to be the sexist eroticization of prepubsecence for women. And then I realized how much time I spent thinking about my unshaven pits, and feeling self-conscious, and worrying about the impression I was making, and decided that on the whole, it simply was not worth it to me to expend that kind of emotional energy, and that I was better off just shaving and putting that time and thought to other things.

Similarly, my dear friend who doesn't own a pair of flat shoes knows that they're bad for her health, and knows that her appreciation for them is culturally conditioned. She's decided that she'd rather fight other battles.

You're not going to get anywhere by telling people that they don't really like the way heels look, or that if they do, they should change that. What you say reminds me of those lame ads which claim that smoking doesn't look cool. When I was a teenager, I always rolled my eyes at those. Of course smoking was cool--who did those ads think they were fooling? I didn't smoke because I knew that it would kill me eventually if I did. We live in this culture, and we are subject to its standards of beauty and mores. I think heels look hot; I don't wear them because they hurt me. But telling me that they're not really pretty isn't going to get you anywhere.

Spot on, EG. I'm sick and tired of being told I'm not a "real woman" because I have small breasts and narrow hips. Not ALL women are supposed to have the hourglass figure, estrogen or no estrogen (seems like armchair evo-psych might be to blame for this hormone crap again).

off topic: Mina, there is an awesome piece in "Bitchfest" about how facial hair is as much a female experience as it is a male experience. The woman profiled in that piece had a lot more strength then I do(admittedly) because even after reading the piece, I don't think I could give up my hair removal methods. Oh and, your right, its "tweezers" I just suck at spelling. Also, just fyi, sometimes facial hair is caused by Polycystic ovarian disorder, but I don't have that, my ancestors just must have reproduced with ewoks.

I personally think that gay male fashion designers prefer the aesthetic because it approximates the look of a gangly teenage boy, but people will read that as homophobic even though I don't mean it that way.

You mean, from the way you make a broad generalization about fashion designers (the implication being that all/most of them are gay, and that they prefer models who look like a "gangly teenage boy")? I can't imagine why.

Homosexual fashion designers' aesthetic preferences have not been limited to clothing alone, but to human bodies. I don't need gay guys pushing their body ideals on the masses, but that's what they have effectively done.

See, when you basically suggest that there's some kind of homosexual conspiracy at work pushing a gay body ideal on the masses through the fashion industry... yeah, I think some people might read that as a tad homophobic. How about, instead of trying to blame the warped fashion ideals on The Gays, you recognize that it's an industry wide problem? I've never seen any evidence that homosexual designers are more likely to do the things you're criticizing than, say, straight designers. Further, your comments strongly imply that it's just male designers doing these things- I'm not super up on my fashion designers, but aren't there also some women involved in fashion design?

On Kate and Cindy--their bodies are different, but they have the masculinized ideals in common.

Okay, you know what... I'm crying fowl here. What makes them count as masculinized ideals? That site you link, later? That's such crap. Small breasts do not make someone masculine. High cheekbones are not necessarily masculine. The idea of beauty being promoted as "feminine" by that site has a name- Barbie. Seriously- you have to have a thin waist, big hips, round ass, big boobs, narrow shoulders, round face, and no muscle definition to be feminine? For real?
Bullshit.
A woman doesn't have to look like a damned porn star to be feminine.

That site has me so irritated and annoyed... gah.

Okay, I'm glad I'm not the only one bugged by that website.

Seamus,

The “science� on the website you linked is called anthropometry, and it is the study of physical variations of human beings. It has a troubled past, having been employed for scores of racist and sexist research studies, often concluding that one race or gender or the other is more prone to criminality or more or less intelligent, most famously in Germany during the second world war. Today, any conclusions by anthropometrists about inherented difference affecting human destiny or value evoke the same reception amongst scientists as one where, say, a researcher concluded that humans were prone to one ailment or another, or destined for greatness, or more compelling sexually, because we were a Sagittarius, Pisces or Virgo, (though often worse, given that whole Nazi business).

If what you’re looking for is a coherent theory as to why many women feel badly about themselves and pressure to conform to an unreasonable standard, unaware that their minds are being controlled by popular culture, might I suggest The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf. It has been critiqued time and again by feminist intellectuals and is not without its troubles, but when you’re faced with a choice between Naomi and some guy using anthopometry and porn to help us figure out how we should look, go with Naomi Wolf.

Oh, dear God. If only my breasts were normal, I might be categorized as attractive! Woe is me! I shall never truly represent feminine beauty as defined by this wanker! Alas, alas.

I have thick eyebrows! Small breasts! A wide ribcage! A wide waist! Skinny legs! You can see the curve of my shoulder muscles! All men who might ever be attracted to me are really just displacing their desire for other men, and will most likely be on the down low before a year is out!

I...am not a true woman. I cannot achieve the highest ideals nature has provided for my sex. I am doomed--DOOMED--to being a third-rate approximation of true female beauty.

At least I have a fairly round face. I can console myself with that.

And my mother thinks I'm beautiful. That's a comfort as well.

Hmm. Maybe I should warn all the men I've slept with that they're probably secretly gay?

All men who might ever be attracted to me are really just displacing their desire for other men, and will most likely be on the down low before a year is out!

laughing my flat ass off.

Ah me. Late to the party as usual. What I find interesting about the graphic above and the resulting commentary is that no one has bothered to question the graphic's accuracy at all. Come on people, do you know anyone, anyone at all who can walk properly in heels, who sticks their ass out like that? I don't.

And for my personal anecdote...I have always been a tall, skinny girl. I topped out at 5'11"-ish finally, and growing up, and well into my twenties, I not only avoided high heels, but I deliberately slouched, so as not to tower over other folks, particularly men. Now I wear heels that elevate me well over 6', and I love it.

It's cool how all feminist women who wear high heels so so for reasons that don't have anything to beauty standards or the patriarchy or anything. I think that's amazing.

Seamus Begonia: This is called Lipstick Feminism. Question it and you are a rabid Dworkinite.

Right on MirandJay.

Seamus, this is feminist lite. They aren't ready for your kind of thinking (although it's people like you that actually get shit changed). Hopefully you got people at least questioning the reason behind the reason and deconstructing how and why they've been socialized.

Keep questioning and raising consciousness!

Uh, wrong, Paula. I am not feminist "lite." I'm just a feminist.

I wear my hair in what might be considered an attractive manner. I wear figure-flattering clothes. I wear heels. I do not generally wear make-up or jewelry, except when I feel like being really girly. I do shave my legs and under my arms. I enjoy giving head as much as I enjoy receiving it.

Guess what? None of that makes me any more or less of a feminist. To say that they do is to take an extremely shallow view of what feminism is, to say nothing of the fact that it's insulting.

It's possible to be perfectly aware of cultural conditioning and still make your own decisions.

guess what paula, miranda and seamus?

I don't wear high heels, I don't wear make-up, I do question the social conditioning of women, I've read and agree with dworkin but I think it is wrong to come on here and automatically insult people for their decisons without listening to why they do feel the way they do. You know, the second wave of feminism had problems with in fighting and splintering because of the same attitudes you are expressing.

"I wear my hair in what might be considered an attractive manner. I wear figure-flattering clothes. I wear heels. I do not generally wear make-up or jewelry, except when I feel like being really girly. I do shave my legs and under my arms. I enjoy giving head as much as I enjoy receiving it.

Guess what? None of that makes me any more or less of a feminist. "

Then why do you even mention it Kimmy? THINK!

"I wear my hair in what might be considered an attractive manner. I wear figure-flattering clothes. I wear heels. I do not generally wear make-up or jewelry, except when I feel like being really girly. I do shave my legs and under my arms. I enjoy giving head as much as I enjoy receiving it.

Guess what? None of that makes me any more or less of a feminist. "

Then why do you even mention it Kimmy? THINK!

I wear my hair in what might be considered an attractive manner. I wear figure-flattering clothes. I wear heels. I do not generally wear make-up or jewelry, except when I feel like being really girly. I do shave my legs and under my arms. I enjoy giving head as much as I enjoy receiving it.

Guess what? None of that makes me any more or less of a feminist."

Then why do you even mention it Kimmy? THINK!

Oops! Sorry for triple post!

Thank you, MirandaJay, for doing your best to attempt to completely shut down any sort of meaningful conversation/debate. It has been noted, and will now be summarily ignored (by myself, at least).

Seamus, here's something I've been kicking around in my head for awhile and now I think I finally have it worked out enough to put up on this blog: "masculine" and "feminine" traits are just as much socially constructed as the ideal of women having large breasts but small waists. Male and Female - as defined genetically - are scientifically defined. Masculinity and femininity are defined by what different societies have deigned as preferential at different times. During the early reign of Charles II in England (18th century), men's clothing was more flamboyant and disfunctional than the women's often were. Then Chuck desided that wasn't desireable and men started wearing muted colors and you saw the beginning of the classic men's suit come into popularity. Men at the time also wore long wigs and would don make up in order to make their features appear closer to what we would call feminine, but they would have considered as the height of fashion. Masculine and feminine cannot be objectively proven as science; it can only be defined by what we currently want to call it. If you ask me, any trait is masculine or feminine based solely upon who possesses it: my slight frame is feminine because I am female.

And Paula, speaking of thinking, perhaps you should double check and make sure that your post has gone through the first time rather than hitting the post button three times!

Seamus, mirandajay, and paula -
You are so right! We should reject all cultural trappings of femininity such as high heels, makeup, dresses, long hair and leg-shaving. We should all eschew those things and dress and act just like men! (Because everyone knows men are totally superior to women, and choosing to mark oneself as female by displaying any culturally-identified feminine trappings clearly marks us as inferior.)

Oh, and if we disagree with you, it's because we're all brainwashed and have no agency, or are just too stupid to know any better.

Funny how much your argument resembles plain old run-of-the-mill misogyny...

Uh, Paula, maybe you ought to think. I included those things in the post as in illustration of the sorts of things that people like you are always using to try to define women out of being good feminists.

In other words, Paula, I included them because I've talked to people like you before and I was trying to make a point. Which you obviously missed.

OMG...I think I just outgrew the third wave..

Paula, you planning on replying to any points that anyone's made, or did you just want to throw in a one-liner?

In case it wasn't patently obvious, my last comment was dripping with sarcasm. I really, really hate the "more feminist than thou" argument.

We are all individuals. We have free will and a right to make our own choices. As feminists, we are aware of the patriarchal influences in are lives, and as such they do not control us. We are not "willing slaves to the patriarchy." Our awareness of the negative attitudes and connotations allows us to realistically weigh the pros and cons of things like wearing high heels, and make an informed and educated decision about whether or not it's worth it to us to do so.
It's true we don't live in a vacuum. It's also true that we never will. Therefore, being unable to utterly divorce ourselves from patriarchal culture, our next best weapon is conscious awareness. When we make our individual personal choices, we make them as informed, intelligent individuals.
For anyone who claims to respect women’s agency and reasoning abilities, that should damn well be sufficient.

I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish, paula. The suggestion seems to be "If you make the choice to wear heels, you must not have thought about the socialization that leads to thinking that heels are attractive." This, despite the fact that several of the women in the thread have said, "look, we get it- we understand that beauty standards are socially constructed. We've thought about that, and decided to wear heels anyway."

Vervain sums it well: As feminists, we are aware of the patriarchal influences in are lives, and as such they do not control us. We are not "willing slaves to the patriarchy." Our awareness of the negative attitudes and connotations allows us to realistically weigh the pros and cons of things like wearing high heels, and make an informed and educated decision about whether or not it's worth it to us to do so... ...When we make our individual personal choices, we make them as informed, intelligent individuals.
For anyone who claims to respect women’s agency and reasoning abilities, that should damn well be sufficient.

You came into this thread swinging. I'm totally for thoughtful analysis of precisely why certain things are considered attractive, and what it means to be masculine or feminine regardless of whether you're male or female. I think it's great to take time to think about why we dress or act certain ways.

I'm not so sure it's constructive to come out with the hostile attitude that clearly none of the women who wear heels have thought about it in a meaningful fashion, and I definitely don't see value in coming onto a feminist site and accusing them of being "feminist lite."

You haven't added much but more hostility to the thread- was that your goal? It'd be nice to see what you think about some of this stuff...

Do you think it's ever okay to wear heels? Do you think that it's possible to know that something is considered attractive because of social conditioning, but still decide to do it anyway? Do you think that masculine and feminine are something other than social constructs?

"You are so right! We should reject all cultural trappings of femininity such as high heels, makeup, dresses, long hair and leg-shaving. We should all eschew those things and dress and act just like men! (Because everyone knows men are totally superior to women, and choosing to mark oneself as female by displaying any culturally-identified feminine trappings clearly marks us as inferior.)"

Do you really think that is what this is about?

That would be the extension of your argument, would it not?
I've yet to meet anyone holding your position who could suggest a feasible alternative.

Care to take a stab at becoming the first?
Here's your forum; step up and preach your solution.
I'm listening....

Do we agree that wearing heels is not good for you body?

Do we agree that heels are sexualized in this society? I mean otherwise little girls would be wearing them and we wouldn't have that wobbly teenage in heels phase.

Can we agree to take the blinders off and realize that a large part of why women wear heels is to make themselves more attractive to others?

Sure it’s okay to wear heels AS LONG as you realize that your making it just a bit more harder for a young girl to grow up and feel attractive without strapping on some hurtful height.

I’m sorry if my comment of “feminist lite� bothered some. A majority of the post were very individualistic…�I’m 2 feet, I’m 7 feet…I wear them to parties and not work…I wear them to work and not parties..blah, blah, blah….who really cares about your preference as long as your getting the big picture on it and not deluding yourself that your not having any impact on the way future women measure their attractiveness.

� As feminists, we are aware of the patriarchal influences in are lives, and as such they do not control us. We are not "willing slaves to the patriarchy."

My answer to you is this: What then do you make of 9 year olds with eating disorders? Why is negative body image such a HUGE issue for teenagers? Christ, by the time that girls grow up into young women and can truly understand feminisim the damage is already done.

Feminism to me is not just having choice (lite) but realizing the ramifications of those choices on the next generation (heavy). And sometimes that means (gasp!) sacrifice like wearing earth shoes with your outfit (double gasp!) one day a week. This is activism and this is what being a feminist is about for me.

Paula, what I don't think you understand is that the "sacrifices" you make and find significant are not necessarily that "sacrifices" that are significant to other people. You find the wearing of earth shoes to be the best way to have a positive, feminist impact on the world. That's nice. But that doesn't mean that that's the best way for every feminist, when she considers the cost-benefit issues, to exercise her feminism.

Sure it’s okay to wear heels AS LONG as you realize that your making it just a bit more harder for a young girl to grow up and feel attractive without strapping on some hurtful height.

Quite frankly, if that's the worst a given young girl has to cope with in our society, I'll buy all the heel-wearers here drinks. One could easily flip this argument on its head and direct it at you: It's OK to wear earth shoes AS LONG as you realize that you're feeding into the stereotype about feminists dressing poorly with no sense of style and making it just a bit harder for a young girl to want to identify with feminism.

by the time that girls grow up into young women and can truly understand feminisim the damage is already done.

Indeed. And we're those women, too. I don't understand this fantasy some people have that it's possible to just throw off all the trappings of oppression and dance happily, in earth shoes, off into the sunset. We grew up in this society. We are products of this society. And human beings are products of their socialization. If you strip away the socialization, there's nothing there. So practically all feminists end up making command decisions about what they're willing to do and accept in their lives. For me, it's shaving. For other women, it's high heels. We are human. We are humans from this culture.

Quite frankly, if that's the worst a given young girl has to cope with in our society, I'll buy all the heel-wearers here drinks. One could easily flip this argument on its head and direct it at you: It's OK to wear earth shoes AS LONG as you realize that you're feeding into the stereotype about feminists dressing poorly with no sense of style and making it just a bit harder for a young girl to want to identify with feminism.
What? To be able to identify with feminism you have to have style? You have to wear footwear that is potentially damaging? And since when did wearing a pair of comfortable shoes deem you unstylish? That’s fucked! Question that! Question why comfortable footwear for women = ugly. Because that’s what your saying right?
Plus earth shoe makes some pretty cute shoes these days, but feel free to substitute any other pair of footwear that’s cute and doesn’t damage your body by all means.
by the time that girls grow up into young women and can truly understand feminisim the damage is already done.
Indeed. And we're those women, too. I don't understand this fantasy some people have that it's possible to just throw off all the trappings of oppression and dance happily, in earth shoes, off into the sunset. We grew up in this society. We are products of this society. And human beings are products of their socialization. If you strip away the socialization, there's nothing there. So practically all feminists end up making command decisions about what they're willing to do and accept in their lives. For me, it's shaving. For other women, it's high heels. We are human. We are humans from this culture.
Exactly, and again because we are talking about high heels I’ve made it relevant to this issue. And if enough people pick your battle to fight you end up with a movement that can effect the way young women are socialized in the future. I mean we’re not wearing corsets today are we?

Sorry, I hope this is more readable.

Quite frankly, if that's the worst a given young girl has to cope with in our society, I'll buy all the heel-wearers here drinks. One could easily flip this argument on its head and direct it at you: It's OK to wear earth shoes AS LONG as you realize that you're feeding into the stereotype about feminists dressing poorly with no sense of style and making it just a bit harder for a young girl to want to identify with feminism.

What? To be able to identify with feminism you have to have style? You have to wear footwear that is potentially damaging? And since when did wearing a pair of comfortable shoes deem you unstylish? That’s fucked! Question that! Question why comfortable footwear for women = ugly. Because that’s what your saying right?

Plus earth shoe makes some pretty cute shoes these days, but feel free to substitute any other pair of footwear that’s cute and doesn’t damage your body by all means.

by the time that girls grow up into young women and can truly understand feminisim the damage is already done.
Indeed. And we're those women, too. I don't understand this fantasy some people have that it's possible to just throw off all the trappings of oppression and dance happily, in earth shoes, off into the sunset. We grew up in this society. We are products of this society. And human beings are products of their socialization. If you strip away the socialization, there's nothing there. So practically all feminists end up making command decisions about what they're willing to do and accept in their lives. For me, it's shaving. For other women, it's high heels. We are human. We are humans from this culture.

Exactly, and again because we are talking about high heels I’ve made it relevant to this issue. And if enough people pick your battle to fight you end up with a movement that can effect the way young women are socialized in the future. I mean we’re not wearing corsets today are we?

I really don't understand what the problem is here, Paula.

To begin with, I don't wear heels. I wear a variety of very cool flats. But you specified earth shoes, which aren't just flats, but have a negative heel. And I've never seen a pair that I don't think are ugly. Because, as I've mentioned, I'm a product of this culture, and affection for earth shoes is not one of the things I choose to put a lot of my de-programming energy into.

To be able to identify with feminism you have to have style?

Don't be absurd. That's not what I said. The facts are that girls and women in this culture usually learn to set great store by looking good, and to develop an affection for visual beauty. How that visual beauty is defined is determined by a combination of innate inclination and social conditioning, so that my opinion that heels look pretty is social conditioning, but my ongoing affection for things that sparkle and glitter is probably not, given the evidence of human history. If girls are given the message that they must choose between looking stylish, pretty, beautiful, and being a feminist, feminism is going to lose. That may not be the way I want it to be, but you have only to look at the rash of young women saying things like "I'm pro-choice and in favor of equal pay, but I'm not a feminist, because feminists don't shave their legs" to see that it's true.

But leaving that aside, you yourself acknowledged that women wear heels in order to look attractive; many of the women posting here have written that they like heels because they think that heels are pretty and stylish; heels are presented in our culture as the epitome of beautiful, feminine footwear. Yet, when I acknowledge those three realities by pointing out that a young girl could as easily get a negative feeling about feminism from your choices as she could from the choices of women wearing heels, you claim that I'm saying that all flats are ugly, and furthermore that I've never applied any feminist analysis to understanding how and why this dynamic exists. I and other posters have explained that this is not the case over and over again, so I'm going to say it once more, in all caps, to make it clear:

I DO INDEED HAVE A FEMINIST UNDERSTANDING OF FASHION FOR WOMEN. UNDERSTANDING THE NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF SUCH FASHION DOES NOT MAKE THE CULTURAL CONDITIONING DISAPPEAR IN A PUFF OF SMOKE. SO, AS AN ACTIVE AGENT, I MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT WHICH COMPROMISES I'M WILLING TO MAKE, AND WHICH I'M NOT. THE COMPROMISES I AM WILLING TO MAKE ARE PROBABLY DIFFERENT FROM THE ONES YOU ARE WILLING TO MAKE. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE COMPROMISES.

Is that clear enough?

And if enough people pick your battle to fight you end up with a movement that can effect the way young women are socialized in the future. I mean we’re not wearing corsets today are we?

Indeed. And there has been great improvement in women's fashion over the past 50 years. Nobody wears girdles these days, we can all wear pants, and heels are becoming less and less of a requirement. I'm not sure why you think that browbeating the women on here is going to advance your battle.

Good stuff MirandaJay and Paula. I think that people get defensive because they aren't ready to look at how much they are being influenced. It's really hard to do. It's painful to admit-to realize how little power you actually have. But it is very frustrating to be misunderstood-gah!

I really never knew that most women wear heels to be taller. I had no idea that was the case. How amazing!! ANd like miranda said-it has nothing to do with beauty standards or patriarchy-of COURSE not!

I find that the whole "more feminist than thou" gets pulled out and used when there are women who refuse to look at their choices. I get this one used against me a lot-when I ask someone to think a bit more about a choice they are making.

Again-I don't really care if you wear heels or makeup or whatever (except that I care about women's health) but trying to say it's an empowering act or something is just silly. Doesn't make you a "bad feminist" (whatever that is!). And to deny that we are all drowning in a big crappy sea of patriarchy is just, well, naive? I don't know-it IS hard to admit. I know why women don't want to look at this stuff-cause it fucking hurts!

I'm glad Paula brought up corsets-I mean, I feel that I should be thinner, so should I just wear corsets? And say that that's fine and I'm not being influenced by anything? I don't think anyone would make that argument, but for heels, people jump to defend them.

Oh, for the love of God. You're attacking strawmen, buggle. Nobody here has said that they're not influenced by anything; nobody here has said that we're not living in a big crappy sea of patriarchy. Nobody has said that wearing heels has nothing to do with sexist beauty standards. Whom on earth are you arguing with?

EG-I agree with what you say. My feeling is-as long as we are aware of what/who is influencing us, and we aren't trying to deny reality, it's all good. People should do what they want to do.

I struggled with the leg shaving thing for so long, and finally I realized "Crap! I'm spending a LOT Of time and energy thinking about this!" I realized that if I wasn't able or willing to just have hairy legs, that it's ok for me to shave or whatever. This doesn't make me a "bad feminist" it just means-like you said-that I'm choosing my battles.

My only problem is when people refuse to admit that culture and socialization and media and all that crap-GREATLY influences all of our choices. That's all. I think you get this completely, but many people don't get it, and get upset when someone points this out, and then they create reasons for why they made that choice (I want to be taller! Ok fine, but who taught you that you weren't good enough at that height?)

Peace to all the super sweet feminists here!

I struggled with the leg shaving thing for so long, and finally I realized "Crap! I'm spending a LOT Of time and energy thinking about this!"

Heh. This is exactly my experience with shaving too!

Thanks for clarifying!

I think what's buggine me the most here, EG, is the assumption (which has been both implicit and explicit) that because I choose to wear heels I'm afraid to think about beauty standards and cultural socialization.

These people don't seem to understand that it's possible to think of these things, understand them, and still come to a different conclusion than them. My conclusion is that heels are comfortable, I like the way they look, I like to wear my long-legged boot-cut jeans, not wearing them isn't life-altering for anyone else, and therefore I'm going to wear them.

They've come to a different conclusion, but somehow only theirs can be correct. There's nothing worse than a fundamentalist of any type. They can only see their view of the world, and they have to belittle anyone who holds a different view.

And before anyone claims people haven't been belittled, let me remind you of the list of terms and phrases that have been used to refer to those who wear (or defend the choice to wear) heels: delusional, afraid, unthinking, irresponsible, that we don't know our own tastes, that we are bait for rapists, that we cannot actually make our own fashion decisions, that we are wearing blinders, that we are tools of the patriarchy, and that we are contributing to the body-image problems of the next generation of women.

And all of this determined by the simple choice of footwear! Beats reading palms, I suppose.

Not you EG- but yes, if you read the entire thread, there are several women on here stating they love heels for x,y,z reasons, without any comment about WHY. And when asked why, they have responded with "cause I like them" and other reasons.

EG-that's funny, I really was like OMG I have spent the last hour and a half thinking about the hair on my legs-now THAT is a waste of time!

With the leg shaving thing though-I do think about how it will influence young girls-like my niece. Is it responsible of me to shave when it will influence her? I think it matters, even though I'm still shaving.

Kimmy-I guess for me, if someone doesn't specifically say "I know that my choice is totally influenced by XY and Z AND I still decided to do A B and C" then I assume (maybe unfairly) that they haven't thought about it in that way. So that may be something I need to work on.

Buggle, that would be hugely helpful. A lot of it is context, and some of it is how you handle the assumption.

On the context thing: this isn't just some random grouping of women. It's a place occupied mostly by self-identified feminists. So to assume we haven't thought about the implications and ramifications is a bit out of place. Thinking about stuff like that is what we do.

On the handling it part: Even if you think you're justified in assuming that we haven't thought about it, there is a way to handle it that's less likely to bring on the defensive posture in the people you're talking to. Say something like, "How do you reconcile that with things like the beauty idea and the socialization of women to meet it?" That way the women you're talking to get the chance to say, "Well, I figured it this way..." or "You know, I never thought about that. Let's discuss it."

But to just act on a presumption of ignorance (or even simple lack of thought) will almost always insult and/or annoy the people you're talking to if you're wrong.

What Buggle said. And...

“If girls are given the message that they must choose between looking stylish, pretty, beautiful, and being a feminist, feminism is going to lose.�

What I’m saying and I think maybe the others are saying is that maybe we can peel that onion back further and redefine what stylish, pretty, beautiful mean in ways that aren’t damaging to our health and self image and those of future women.

Are you against this kind of change EG?

What Buggle said. And...

“If girls are given the message that they must choose between looking stylish, pretty, beautiful, and being a feminist, feminism is going to lose.�

What I’m saying and I think maybe the others are saying is that maybe we can peel that onion back further and redefine what stylish, pretty, beautiful mean in ways that aren’t damaging to our health and self image and those of future women.

Are you against this kind of change EG?

Don't be silly--of course I'm not. As I pointed out, it's a change that has been happening steadily over the past 50 years. But it's not going to happen magically overnight, and demanding that we act as if it will is unrealistic. Also unkind.

Can we agree to take the blinders off and realize that a large part of why women wear heels is to make themselves more attractive to others?
I think saying we have "blinders" on when we've all made it clear we're abundantly aware of the negative aspects of wearing heels is extremely insulting, but moving on...can we also agree that human beings of both sexes practice basic hygiene for the same reason? Is there something inherently wrong with wanting to appear attractive, or wanting others to find you attractive?

I’m sorry if my comment of “feminist lite� bothered some. A majority of the post were very individualistic…�I’m 2 feet, I’m 7 feet…I wear them to parties and not work…I wear them to work and not parties..blah, blah, blah….who really cares about your preference as long as your getting the big picture on it and not deluding yourself that your not having any impact on the way future women measure their attractiveness.
You seem to be under the impression that all these hypothetical future women lack the capacity for reason and are thus incapable of "getting the big picture" as well. Why do you think they'd be any less capable of doing so than the women here are? Why would the women of the future be any less intelligent than the ones walking the Earth today? Do you know something about the future of humanity that the rest of us don't? Does it involve an evil horde of ravenous brain-eating zombies?

"What then do you make of 9 year olds with eating disorders? Why is negative body image such a HUGE issue for teenagers? Christ, by the time that girls grow up into young women and can truly understand feminisim the damage is already done."

Well, it's either based on:
A) sexist socialization coupled with a steady diet of media and commercials designed to make them feel insecure about their looks so they'll buy more useless crap to "fix" their "flaws" and make the advertisers and sponsors really fucking rich, or
B) my decision to wear sandals with a 2" heel to work today.
Hmmm...I'm going to go with option A.

I'm not denying that we need to get the word out there and educate people about the harmful effects of sexism and the perpetuation of it through our mass media. I wouldn't be much of a feminist if I thought otherwise. Believe me, I rail against the media every chance I get.

Feminism to me is not just having choice (lite) but realizing the ramifications of those choices on the next generation (heavy). And sometimes that means (gasp!) sacrifice like wearing earth shoes with your outfit (double gasp!) one day a week. This is activism and this is what being a feminist is about for me.

Well, fancy that. Feminist activism through the wearing of Earth shoes once a week! Personally, I don't pat myself on the back as a champion of feminism based on my wardrobe choices. I honestly can't be bothered to wear heels or makeup when on my own time, so most of the time I don't. I'm too busy trying to work out ways to educate people (young women especially) about the sexist culture that surrounds them, so that they learn to question what they've been taught, to change it and to break free of its influence.

When I do wear heels, I do so largely for practical reasons, namely my fondness for long flared pants, and my desire to not ruin them by dragging the cuffs on the ground when I walk.

There, now you have a reason WHY one of us wears heels.
Will you STFU now?

Kimmy-I hear what you are saying. But, I'm confused, because I went back up and read the reasons that you listed for wearing heels, and you didn't address anything about patriarchy or sexism or anything. You did have a list of reasons, but none of them mentioned any of the implications and ramifications. So yes, I could just assume that you've thought about it and didn't feel it was necessary to write it, but I think it IS necessary to write it. And in one of your posts, it does sound like you are denying that you wear high heels for any reason other than that you like them. So it's confusing.

In terms of the way I word things, in my experience there is no good way to start this discussion, because people feel defensive no matter what.

I just reread the first 20 or so messages, and not one of the "heel defenders" (lol) said anything about beauty standards or sexism or patriarchy. In fact, most of them were just stating the reasons why they like heels. I don't think we can assume it's a given that everyone has thought about it- even on a feminist site.

That's my whole point, Buggle. I didn't address it in words. But because of where I am (a feminist website) it would be silly to assume that I hadn't thought about it. And because there are better ways to handle it, you shouldn't have acted on the assumption that way.

The whole point of my previous post was that you shouldn't assume regardless of whether your topics of interest are specifically mentioned. There's no basis for your assumption. And again, even if you feel justified, you don't tell people they haven't thought about something without asking them first if it's true. It's just rude otherwise.

I'm confused about your statement about my liking heels. Why would my liking them be at odds with my having thought about beauty ideals and such? Is it not possible that I decided that because I like them, and because there's insufficient benefit to be gained from not wearing them, I could go ahead and wear them? I don't see any contradiction there.

There would be a problem, in my mind, if I was wearing them and I didn't like them. That's the only good reason for wearing them. The question could then turn to why I like them, which I've also discussed several times.

But Vervain-where did anyone make it abundantly clear that you are all aware of this stuff? Most of the posts were just "I like heels" or "I don't usually wear them." There was no feminist analysis, or discourse, or real discussion.

You say that women wear heels to appear attractive, and that there's nothing wrong with it? If I'm misreading you, please clarify. But there IS something wrong with a woman feeling she needs to hurt herself in order to be more "attractive." And who decides what is attractive anyways?

Also, get your pants hemmed. That's what most people do when their pants are too long for them and are dragging on the ground.

Ok Kimmy, but then really-we're having this whole conversation about heels, on a feminist website-and no one mentions anything about sexism? Because it's just a given? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Okay, but what I'm saying is that if you want to talk about it there are ways to bring it up that don't offend or annoy people. And that's a much better choice.

As I said, my view is that it isn't an issue that has enough impact to change my preferences (much like shaving my legs - I love the feeling of freshly shaved legs and I don't feel it does enough harm to offset that preference).

Sometimes people just like to talk about things from a more personal aspect, likes and dislikes. And there's nothing wrong with that. If you want to take it deeper, please do. Just make sure you're doing it in a polite and friendly way.

So, I need to be nicer? I don't think so. I didn't say anything mean or hurtful, I didn't insult anyone or call anyone names. I just brought it up. I was frustrated, and I'm sure that came through, but I don't feel any need to be all nicey nicey about it.

It's really sad to me that on a feminist site, talking about sexism is "taking it deeper." I mean, what's the point of the original post, if not to talk about it?

We were talking about it. Apparently, we weren't doing it to your satisfaction, but we were talking about it. Again, there's nothing wrong with just talking about personal likes and dislikes sometimes.

And whether you need to be polite or not is entirely up to you and what you want to accomplish. You weren't the worst on this thread, certainly. But making the effort to be polite will get you a polite discussion. Failure to do so may put people's backs up and keep you from getting any kind of real discussion. If you don't care about the outcome, go ahead and speak to people any way you wish.

By the way, there is something insulting in assuming that feminists haven't thought about feminist issues in their own choices and in speaking to them in a way based on that assumption. You may not see it, but obviously many of us did. Calling someone "bitch" or "stupid" isn't the only way to be insulting.