i am absolutely fuming at what i've just read. NOT about your love of biggie (even though i sure don't understand that AT all), but about you trying to create reasons to feel comfortable liking music that treats women worse than dirt.

you can love hip hop all you want but when you say you're a feminist and you like certain types of and/or artists in hip hop, i just must shake my head.(are there NO non-misogynistic hip hop artists out there???)

you're more worried about how much the women in hip hop videos are paid? i'm guessing that IS indeed an issue, but the difference between you and i is, i am more worried about how they're PORTRAYED in the video (and how they were treated while filming)

"i never liked to criticize hip hop culture for anything.........." ???????? WHAT. that is so bizarre i can't even fathom it.
i equate that with me saying i like the mob because they're italian. I can LIKE some things that are italian but I sure don't have to like everything that is italian simply because it is in my heritage.

how are we to change the world views on women (treating women as equals for a start) when 'feminists' search for ways to justify women being portrayed as whores and/or second class citizens - who are only good for shaking their moneymakers or taking money from men?

mr hunt (whom you quote) can talk all he wants about don imus and hip hop music. they are TWO VERY different things. yes, both disparage women but i don't CARE about don imus. i DO care about music. (did he really say patriarchcy is responsible for misogyny in hip hop???).

I didn't want the wing-nuts to appropriate our feminist words to conflate with racist ideas and suppress black voices.

I spoke ill of the most misogynistic forms rap on my blog after the Imus flap and got blasted by my audience. (By this, I mean more than usual.) As you say, it is in fact very difficult to criticize misogynistic rap because of who produces it. However, if we don't criticize it, we can hardly expect it to go away by itself.

(did he really say patriarchcy is responsible for misogyny in hip hop???)

I think that makes sense. Patriarchy has been despicably cruel to black men and women, and, because black men are so dehumanized when compared to whites, they have no other outlet for their aggression besides people who are even lower on the patriarchal totem pole than they are--black women. Of course, this is just a theory I have been developing ever since I read The Bluest Eye.

msstrez, I'm not sure I'm reading Samhita's comments the same way you are.

When I first started becoming aware of and interested in feminism, and started examining how I felt about and thought about some of the various issues concerning women today, I had to start rethinking how I felt about some of the things I'd really enjoyed before. One of the things I had to do was get over my reaction to defend things. I love video-games and movies. My first reaction was to defend the things I'd loved and try to find ways to justify why I loved them. It was an emotional reaction, not a logical one- I really enjoyed these things, and it was hard for me to face the reality that some of the things I really enjoyed were, in fact, morally repulsive in many ways.

That's a hard thing to accept and learn from.

Now, years later, there are many things that I once loved that I can no longer enjoy. My initial reaction - justify and defend- eventually gave way to a critical analysis.

Which is a long way of saying that I don't get the impression that Samhita is saying that hip-hop gets a pass or that she's still looking for ways to justify or defend misogyny in hip-hop, but that it's time to start fighting against sexism and racism in hip-hop, and that she was glad to see someone else coming up with ways to help battle those forces.

I sort of think that lot of people go through something like that as they become more socio-politically aware- that moment where something that you've enjoyed or not given much thought suddenly starts to look really troubling. Maybe it's a movie (I suggest taking a look at The Unapologetic Mexican's review of Falling Down for an example), or a book, or (as in my case) video games, or music. I don't think it makes you a "bad" feminist to feel conflicted about something like this.

I feel you, Samhita. I think that we all have to reconcile for ourselves how to be comfortable loving some things that aren't perfect. I mean, there are some songs that are just catchy as hell and make you want to dance (Three 6 Mafia's Whoop that Trick, for example), but that the lyrics are questionable to downright mysogynistic... even songs by so-called conscious emcees, like Common and Mos Def say shit about 'bitches' and 'faggots', which I think exemplifies Byron Hurt's point that sexism and homophobia were created with the invention of hip-hop the same way that sexism and racism weren't created by these shock jock radio personalities. These people are taking what they get from the culture and putting it into their work. Art imitating life (see my post on the Tarentino thread) again. So until society changes, we shouldn't expect to see hip hop change. This isn't to say there's nothing we can do to change either society or hip hop, but I'm not sure that being dogmatic about everything and denying ourselves the pleasure that we get out of a Lil John song because that crunk feels good is the way to go either. particularly when issues of race are also at play here. The fact is that these people (black rappers and video girls) ARE making money and that IS empowering to people of color, however slight, particularly when these folks give back to their communities. Is it tainted money, yes. But what money ISN'T tainted? And what identity wins out? It's easier for white women to say that women do because they don't have that double bind, but perhaps that kind of racism is just as bad as the sexism in some hip hop lyrics. Just something to chew on. For something else to chew on, check out this piece (Celie's Revenge) by Jenn McLune, hip hop feminist extrodinaire.

whew,

thanks roymac... taking me way too long to write about how i don't think it's right to start off responding to a self-critical piece by lambastic the author.

you know what, though, i'm going to take a little departure here... folks do have a choice. the creators of the music do have a choice. and, as hurt pointed out in the interview, so do we, as consumers of the music.

more on this later... gotta run to work so i can, for a short time, support a much more accepted form of misogyny (popular episodic tv ish).

but just to throw something out there - music enters a whole 'nother element into the stew. music is not a political medium, it's a spiritual one and music can be amazing because of the music, without a mind to the content.

i love james brown. james brown was a conflicted and messed up cat, but his music was and is amazing.

biggie was an incredible rapper... really, his sense of musicality and lyrical precision was something few people ever attain. he chose to use his gifts for personal gain with little thought to what his word would manifest in the world (long-view style)... that doesn't take away from the musical worth of his work (because that's diddy's job).

this is part of the conflict. amazing musical and lyrical gifts don't always present themselves in people who are willing to sacrifice to make something that's not only good, but something that does good...

gosh... gotta run.

heights and blessings

I'd have to agree with roymacIII. We are not "bad feminists" for feeling conflicted about some of the things pop culture throws at us. Sometimes those songs with hateful, repulsive lyrics have a damn good beat. I believe that critical thinking and a basic awareness of what is going on in society are what's most important.

"I never liked to criticize hip-hop culture for anything."

This is a perfect example of what I find very troubling about America and its politics.

People on both sides of the political spectrum are very quick to criticize the other side, but will very rarely criticize anyone on their own side (no matter how justified the criticism is).

The hypocrisy is astounding.

"But I just want to know, is it ever OK to dance to hip-hop that has a bad message (cuz maybe I do that sometimes)?"

Only if you believe it's also ok to listen to "white power" music, too (the lyrics are scary, but the guitar riffs are awesome).

RM: You know, it's hardly useful to play the hypocrisy card when the whole point seems to be "This is hard, but I'm working on it." Note that the comment you quoted is past tense. "I never liked to criticize hip-hop culture for anything."

She's talking about her attitude in the past. Notice that she doesn't deny the problems with hip-hop today: "mainstream hip-hop seems to have reached it's height of misogyny."

You're claiming hypocrisy in a post that does exactly what you claim doesn't happen. That, to me, is what is really astounding.

Fair enough, Mac.

Better late than never to confront one's hypocrisy.

Samhita, I agree with roymac (shocking, I know) -- we all enjoy politically repugnant stuff sometimes. Would it help any if I admit that, while I won't seek it out intentionally anymore, I still love watching Pretty Woman if it happens to be on TV? I feel bad about enjoying it, but I enjoy it nonetheless.

I heard Anne Lamott speak once about "The Church of 80%." The idea is that if you're doing anything well 80% of the time, you're doing pretty damn good. If you're a good writer, or a good activist, or a good friend, or a good partner, or a good _______ 80% of the time, you're probably ahead of the game.

This is NOT, however, the same to rocking out occasionally to white supremacist music! Why? Oh, I don't know, maybe a little thing called PRIVILEGE? I'm sorry, RM, but a member of an oppressed group (women, people of color, etc.) occasionally enjoying something which may contribute to their oppression, because they developed a positive relationship with that thing (and the mass media has powerfully encouraged that positive relationship) long before they understood its power to harm them, is in NO WAY the same thing as a member of a privileged group (white folks, men, etc.) enjoying something that contributes to the oppression of OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT THEM.

Having one of those moments when I can't tell if people didn't read what Samhita wrote or the interview itself - or if some of the comments just reflect the larger discomfort with the subject matter.

It takes vast courage to criticize within an oppressed group; and if you've ever done it, you know why. It is extremely likely that not only will the privileged do their best to steal your words out of context and use them as 'proof' of their bigoted points (and by extension, use you as their unwilling spokesperson), but you will also probably be identified as a 'traitor' within the oppressed group. Too radical in your analysis. Not radical enough. Bringing down more hate on us. Whatever.

Add in a dynamic that what you’re criticizing is one of very few things the oppressed group feels is ‘theirs’ and you’ve got a tremendous amount of defensiveness on all sides of an issue, and even higher risk in talking about it at all.

In spite of that risk, Samhita wrote honestly about this tension, calling for hip hop and justice in the same breath. That’s not only righteous, it’s brave.
And Byron Hurt called out the notion that ‘no one criticizes hip hop’ clear as day right here:

GM: With that being said, why do you think it's been said that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, for example, don't publicly condemn many of the rappers who have said the same thing—or worse—than what Imus said?

BH: [Voice rising] You said they don't? Of course they have—they've been doing it for years. That's the thing that's just utterly amazing to me. That belief, or that thought, is just born out of historical amnesia or ignorance. Because Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have been talking about the degradation of women and hip-hop for many years. And they've done many different things to speak out against it. That's the thing that's really surprising to me—people are making it seem as if the hip-hop community is being hypocritical, or the black community is being hypocritical, when black people have been speaking out against this kind of stuff for a long time. It's just that it hasn't been newsworthy when it happens, by the mainstream media. And it seems as if nobody seems to care that we have these concerns or these criticisms.

I met Byron Hurt years ago via his role in MVP - and while I had major criticisms (and that’s an understatement) of the program as Jackson Katz determined it, Hurt brought a quality of honesty, courage, depth of analysis, and walking the talk that won my respect in a big way. Thanks for passing this on, Samhita. I’m glad to see that his film company God Bless the Child, and his independent voice, are getting out there so successfully.

I kind of feel like this too, not about rap (because frankly I want to bludgeon my head every time I hear it) but instead about America's Next Top Model. I know that it is a little sexist at times and that those violent photos they took a few weeks ago were out of line, but I can't stop watching it. It's something me and my friends enjoy on a weekly basis, and I know a lot of feminists hate it, but I can't tear myself away from watching it.

Pretty sure that at least 50% of the music I listen to could be construed as being misogynistic or anti-feminist. I ain't sweatin no finger-waggin..

Look, I had a feminist studies professor who unabashedly loved James Bond films, and who assured us that so long as we didn't watch (or in this case, listen) to such things and think to ourselves, "That seems like an ideal world", we would be safe from head-exploding cognitive dissonance.

Theriomorph, right on. It's so hard to criticize from within, but no real change happens without pressure from both inside and outside a culture/group/institution. The fact that Samhita loves hip hop so much even with all the misogyny, and that it's so complicated and difficult to speak about it, means she's crucial to the struggle to separate hip hop from misogyny.

My ex-girlfriend (who is also a feminist) and I used to go clubbing a lot and we loved nothing more than a good dance to Pussycat Dolls or the Black Eyed Peas. We were well aware of the ironies, and I think as long as you are aware and are consciously critiquing it. And don't give your money to them by buying/downloading the stuff.

Russell Simmons' Hip-Hop Summit Action Network recently put out this release calling for a ban on the words "bitch" and "ho" in hip-hop lyrics:

The words "bitch" and "ho" are utterly derogatory and disrespectful of the painful, hurtful, misogyny that, in particular, African American women have experienced in the United States as part of the history of oppression, inequality, and suffering of women.

I completely understand, Samhita: the beats, man, the beats - sometimes they are just irresistible (even while the lyrics are beyond cringe-inducing.) I feel the same way about some dancehall/dub reggae (but at least there I have trouble deciphering some fo the misogynistic/homophobic/etc-ic lyrics.)

Keep in mind WHO decides what is put on the air. If it was up to rappers, then almost every rapper would be on the air. But it is not up to them; in fact, it is up to the heads of major record labels, and they choose whatever will make the most money and put it on the air, and that is how "mainstream" is decided. These people are, most of the time, external to hip hop culture. Trust me, in poor areas where hip hop culture is its strongest, people love lyricism. People like the club hits, of course, but respect in hip hop, in its strongest form, in poor urban areas, is gained by having the wittiest, most clever, most original intellectual lyrics. I'm not saying that misogyny doesn't exist in this atmosphere, but I just want to get the point across that hip hop does not necessarily equal misogyny, EXCEPT in the sense that hip hop is part of American culture and American culture is essentially misogynistic.

I think rappers need to grow the fuck up already. Snoop is married, has children, is in his forties, GROW UP ALREADY. Even from a totally apolitical standpoint, it just gets old. Think of something original.

No one seems to mention that there are ways to enjoy music/media that is objectionable or horrifying but find ways to subvert it and transform the message into a critical one. Just like ADBusters uses well known tools and a familiar medium to deconstruct corporate messages, the same can be done for other elements of culture. It can be remixing music to have lyrics which highlight the problem, or parodying the song, or just framing it with other content that highlights the problems. Sometimes just the cognitive dissonance can jar people into realizing how objectionable things can be. As an example, I once did a performance of Gin and Juice at a club, and I think (hope) just managing to convey mockery and the sheer ridiculousness of the lyrics can get across the message without spoiling the enjoyment. When you're out and just want to have fun, it can be as simple as just rolling your eyes and laughing when you sing along. I have the same love/hate relationship with hip/hop, and I think it's important to be vocal about changing the themes and messages in the music. AT the same time, I think it is possible to enjoy the elements of hip hop that make it great while still critically assessing the content.

peace,

i know someone touched on this. heck, for all the flak msstrez is rightly getting for flying off the handle right off the bat (i really wanted to say that), there is a good point in there.

"are there NO non-misogynistic hip hop artists out there???"

absolutely... there's talib kweli, there's queengodis, there's boots riley, there's zion i, there's dead prez, shelly b, the list goes on...

fact is, though, people listen to what's around and what's around is the stuff being pushed on hot97 and clearchannel networks (like kmel and power105)...

so, yeah, dem franchize boyz and kris and jeezy get more spins by the big business side of things while the coup gets an entire tour sidelined by a car accident and dead prez gets banned from venues...

and we wonder why hip hop is how it is and think it's ridiculous to claim that the "patriarchy" and big business ceos bear responsibility for the state of things right now.

i mean, folks have to take responsibility for their actions. fat joe, as mentioned in the interview, has done a lot to sponsor community programs, to raise money for social projects and to support more politically-minded artists.

and, like theriomorph said, thanks, sami, for bringing forward this interview with this bright star and for showing her love for hip hop by recognizing its flaws and working to find a way forward...

took me mad long to write this so it may look repetitive... sorry...

heights and blessings

Thank you thoughtful comments, I greatly appreciate. And puck and I have talked extensively about this and if you know anything about hip-hop, it wasn't invented by the mainstream either. The way that it is produced, commodified and pushed is, however "hip-hop started out in the heart" AND is and continues to be a political movement, along with a spiritual journey full of some of the best, hottest produced music that has indeed changed my life. I mean whenever any track from Tribes Midnight Marauders comes on or ANYTHING from Mos Def's Black on Both Sides or for that matter any of the early Wu-tang albums come on, you best believe I am dancing my ass off and I know all the lyrics.

But mainstream hip hop isn't what it used to be and when I listen now, I can dance for a minute (has anyone heard hyphy?) but then I get frustrated and I am like enough already, we get it.

But as hip-hop is in a schizophrenic space searching for some guidance, we as feminists are as well. The hip-hop movement as a political ideology is not that different from the feminist movement. It started by highlighting unfair living conditions in urban ghettos. If that is scary, well fuck it. Living in the ghetto is scary and we as Americans need to know about that.

Point being, it is more complicated than "it is misogyny." And honestly, when I hear people criticize hip-hop and they don't know much about it, I feel the same way of anti-feminist rhetoric, it is racist and sexist.

When I was much younger and in high school and college I defended the NWA/Biggie Smalls lyrics with the usual, "they're not talking about ME" rhetoric. My and other young black women's line of thinking went, "There ARE bitches and hos in this world and they're talking about THEM not ME." There was even a Behind the Music where T-Boz from TLC echoed this sentiment in defense of her hip-hop co-horts and that was the predominant thinking and justification from women of color who, like many have said here, loved the beats but not the lyrics.

Later it became, "I don't listen to the lyrics I listen to the beats" excuse as the southern crunk/strip hop became more popular. That was also my thinking, however driving home from school one day I was listening to a mixed CD I'd made for the trip and just happened to hear the lyrics to Yin Yang Twin's "Get Low". It has an awesome beat, that cannot be denied, but once I actually HEARD what they were talking about aside from the "To the windows/to the wall" chorus I was shocked and appalled. Years later they had their single The Whisper Song and I'd downloaded the uncut version to that one (I don't like anything to be censored from me) and again I was completely shocked and appalled by the lyrics, so much so that I went back and got the radio edit.

I can't really say when the tide officially turned for me but I know somewhere in these last few years I realized that they AREN'T just talking about "bitches and hos" and that "bitches and hos" have become their common name for ALL women and that they are talking about ALL of us and because the majority of us kept our heads in the sand for so long we somehow let them get away with it long enough so that now they feel entitled to call women bitches and hos as a sign of "affection" and a term of endearment.

It sucks because they know they can make good beats and most of the time when you're dancing in a club the beat is all you really can hear, however if black women want respect then we will have to stop buying and dancing to this music, period. If we even keep dancing to this in clubs it's only going to reinforce the notion that these lyrics are okay. I myself have stopped dancing to certain songs, and I do get funny looks when I explain why I'm not dancing but I no longer want to play along with the hip-hop we have today. It's really sad and unoriginal.

There is some good hip-hop out there, however it's underground and most of the mainstream hip-hop is not.

I see conversations like this, and I think about how sad it is that artists like Talib Kweli don't get more exposure, because it really is unfair to generalize based on what the mainstream media decides to spoon-feed us. It makes me wonder how many hip-hop artists would write about other subjects if the market was different.

I also don't think the conversation should be limited to hip-hop. There's a Buckcherry song I hear on the radio all the time called, "Crazy Bitch." There's "Smack my Bitch up." There's a slew of female artists singing about what basically amounts to submission to men. There's one pop song that I absolutely REFUSE to listen to all the way through, because it's about refusing to sleep with guys who don't have yachts and the chorus is, "I'm a golddigger. So what?"

It ALL contributes to negativity in our culture. Yes, misogyny is a problem, but when I think about it carefully, I really just see materialism run wild in a consumer culture. It's turned us all into products, whose only value to the other gender is to provide sex or money. And it disgusts me.

it's worth noting that you can find some hiphop that is intelligent and is at least reduced in misogyny by going to pandora.com and down thumbing everything that you don't like.

The music is indexed slightly by lyrical content, so sooner or later pandora will get the clue that you only like stuff that is happily exempt from the bitches and hoes line of thinking.

That being said, pandora stations are shareable, so maybe someone could do the grunt work for us and post their results?

There's one really interesting part in Byron Hurt's documentary where he's talking to a group of aspiring rappers in New York (I think they were in the South Bronx, which is a large focus of the documentary because of its role in the creation of hip-hop). He asks them why they rap primarily about women and money, and one of them shoots off a really great rhyme about poverty and violence, and then says something like, "But even though we can come up with rhymes like that, don't nobody want to hear about that...that won't sell."

UltraMagnus, your comment reminded me of an experience one of my friends had about a year ago when she went to a house party that was full of a bunch of hip-hop wannabe white boys. She and one of her female friends were getting ready to play a ping-pong game against two of the guys there, who they didn't really know all that well, and one of the guys said gleefully, "Hey, it's the guys against the hoes!" My friend responded angrily by saying that she's not a ho, to which the white boys replied, "yes you are, because you're women, and ALL women are hoes."

I really, really dislike mainstream rap for that reason. It makes me really upset when men sing about women like that. The thing is, there's really positive hip hop/rap if you look for it--I love Lady Sovereign, MIA, Northern State, & Queen Latifah.
I'm much more involved in the punk/goth movement. I'll admit that there are some seriously misogynistic punk bands, but it's so much easier to avoid them than it is to avoid misogynystic rap--every time you put on MTV, if they're actually showing videos, it's always women in tiny clothes shaking their asses for men.
But I have to give you credit, Samhita, it takes a lot of ovaries to admit something like that. My unfeminist indulgences are America's Next Top Model & Project Runway. Also, I love slasher movies. So I can relate to what it's like enjoying something that you know is wrong.

"It takes vast courage to criticize within an oppressed group; and if you've ever done it, you know why. It is extremely likely that not only will the privileged do their best to steal your words out of context and use them as 'proof' of their bigoted points (and by extension, use you as their unwilling spokesperson), but you will also probably be identified as a 'traitor' within the oppressed group. Too radical in your analysis. Not radical enough. Bringing down more hate on us. Whatever."

Once on another blog I saw some guy both claim it's enlightened for him to want to reach 120 (because America's treatment of black men throughout its history is unhealthy) and claim it's base and selfish for a Third World girl to want to reach 12 (because if her village is still around after childbirth has killed its preteens for centuries, then that tradition must be healthy). o_O

"No one seems to mention that there are ways to enjoy music/media that is objectionable or horrifying but find ways to subvert it and transform the message into a critical one."

When I was a kid I liked "Epic" by Faith No More but hated some of the lyrics. So after I taped it off the radio, I taped another copy without that part.

"however if black women want respect then we will have to stop buying and dancing to this music, period."

Now I'm wondering about the music I like that has lyrics I don't understand, instead of lyrics I like or no lyrics at all (yay techno!). What's a good way to find out which bhangra and French hip-hop is misogynistic and which isn't when you don't speak Punjabi or French? I did find out that the lyrics to "Parisien du Nord" by K-Mel and Cheb Mami in French and Arabic are really cool, but it sure took a while to find that translation (and now the page's down again!). :/

As for hip-hop *videos*...

Sammi Cheng's "Big Step"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iePyeUrQC8s
(I can't even tell if this is Cantonese or Mandarin or something else. Either way, can anyone reading this tell what she's saying? Also, is there any Korean Wave dynamic on here a la http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/30/AR2006083002985.html?)

Cheb Mami and K-Mel's "Parisien du Nord"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-NwRDVddyGc
(The woman dancing in this one kinda reminds me of dancers in rap videos because she's silent, but also kinda reminds me of the men dancing in "Big Step" because they're all the opposite sex of the singers and fully clothed)

Lumino's "Nadtai Tsug Bayas"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XqR740BzO8
(What's going on here? Whose mockery are they mocking and who are they just mocking? Does anyone reading this know Mongolian?)

Patriarchy has been despicably cruel to black men and women, and, because black men are so dehumanized when compared to whites, they have no other outlet for their aggression besides people who are even lower on the patriarchal totem pole than they are--black women.

Coming a bit late to the party, but I have to say that I really don't agree with Andrea about this. It seems to completely absolve black men of all their complicity in patriarchy, and if I made a similar argument about white women (patriarchy has so brutally devalued our humanity that we have no outlet for our anger but those lower than us on the totem pole--black people), it would be rightly lambasted as racist apologist claptrap. Black men are moral agents; moreover, like other men, they benefit from patriarchy (though they do not benefit from racism, but the two things are not one and the same). Just as it is incumbent on white women to be aware of our racial privilege, black men are responsible for being aware of their gender privilege.

But I just want to know, is it ever OK to dance to hip-hop that has a bad message (cuz maybe I do that sometimes)?

Of course it is! That problem is hardly unique to hip-hop, anyway. How does one deal with the greatness that is the riff to "Brown Sugar" and the vileness that are the lyrics to that song? One still cannot help dancing around to it, but one feels a little icky about it (at least this one does).

While I have to second Moxie Hart in that I am a punk/goth/rivetkitten and have thusly been involved in that scene, I have to echo EG's sentiment. I once grooved to "Brown Sugar." Now, I cringe. Further, I'd like to remind everyone that hip-hop is by no means alone in its misogyny. Need we harken back to hair band days? "Cherry Pie?" anyone? How's about that Wanger, er, Winger song about a 17 year old girl? Don't even get me started on any form of metal or country music. Despite my leanings one way, I listen to all types of music and the one thing they all have in common is sexist and downright misogynistic lyrics. So, there are plenty of "guilty pleasures" I once enjoyed that now make me nauseous. Some of my former faves I've had to kick to the curb. Some of the least-bad ones I can enjoy in that rolling-of-the-eyes way that someone else mentioned. I do, however, take every opportunity to denounce misogyny in ANY form of music. Now, I'm going to go operate the tush for those un-misogynistic (at least as far as I know) brothers in Jurassic Five.

Now the conversation is about hip-hop, misogyny, and sexism, which are indefensible—and I don't defend them on any level—but I think the conversation should continue to be not only on Don Imus and his comments and the impact that it's had

I hate these shock jocks and hope all of them get fired.

but also on sexism and racism in American culture

Something I do daily.

not just hip-hop, because both of those things, including patriarchy, predate hip-hop.

Thank goddess for people like me who do all three things.

[/snark]

It takes vast courage to criticize within an oppressed group; and if you've ever done it, you know why. It is extremely likely that not only will the privileged do their best to steal your words out of context and use them as 'proof' of their bigoted points

I'm clueless here but can someone post a few links or examples of when this has happened? (i.e. when a feminist criticized blacks, Latinos, Asians or Native Americans and was appropriated by wingnuts)

That's why I try to support rappers who can bust a rhyme that doesn't involve the pimp/ho crap. Aesop Rock is among this dying breed of artists. That man is a god.

Samhita, have you checked out Ciara's "Like a Boy" hip hop video?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgb9UXM_J9I

Patriarchy has been despicably cruel to black men and women, and, because black men are so dehumanized when compared to whites, they have no other outlet for their aggression besides people who are even lower on the patriarchal totem pole than they are--black women.

Andrea, do you realize what you're saying? Feminism is supposed to be for all women including we who are not white.

Coming a bit late to the party, but I have to say that I really don't agree with Andrea about this. It seems to completely absolve black men of all their complicity in patriarchy...Black men are moral agents; moreover, like other men, they benefit from patriarchy...Just as it is incumbent on white women to be aware of our racial privilege, black men are responsible for being aware of their gender privilege.

Said the Ph.D.

Why would anyone want to politicize music or pop culture (or any kind of culture for that matter)? I have never had much love for hip-hop, and have a hard time finding any talent in it, but criticizing music or telling artist what they should or shouldn't create sounds absurd. Talent is innate, and to try to regulate it, is like driving from the back seat. People are going to say whatever they want to say in music, and usually the most defiant music is what sells the hottest. If you want there to be a change in hip hop, then you need to promote an example of the different style of music you desire, because creative mind cannot be stopped, and the only way to make a change in trends is to provide a new trend.

"I'm clueless here but can someone post a few links or examples of when this has happened? (i.e. when a feminist criticized blacks, Latinos, Asians or Native Americans and was appropriated by wingnuts)"

Would Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Nanette Rogers count?

Why would anyone want to politicize music or pop culture (or any kind of culture for that matter)?

It's already political, ranter. People are just taking a moment to level criticism at it. Just because something is labeled "art" doesn't mean it gets a pass on being sexist, racist, homophobic, whatever. Should we ignore the racism in "Birth of Nation" and say "Oh, it was just a movie, it's not really political"?

criticizing music or telling artist what they should or shouldn't create sounds absurd.

Wow.
Really?
So, you've never said "That movie sucked"? I mean, that's less directed, but criticism is criticism. At least when you point out the sexism in music, you're giving pointed criticism, but... wow... all criticism is absurd?

Wait, wait...
If passing judgement on music for the sexism is absurd... why is it okay for you to come on here and criticize Jessica's book (before you've even read it, no less)? This website and her book are both pieces of pop culture now. Does that mean that you're being absurd?

Hrm...

Interesting article in today's Times by Kelefa Sanneh called Don’t Blame Hip-Hop (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/25/arts/music/25hiph.html?pagewanted=all)

It makes the point that misogyny is a much larger problem than hip hop -- it was around long before the word "rap" even existed, and will be a problem long after musical tastes have changed.

For all that, I think we *do* need to think about how we subtly support negative messages by the culture we consume. Would anybody argue that renting a movie like Crank, with its horrifying "comical" rape scene, is OK? Well, the same is true of the music we listen to -- and I hate this, as quite a bit of the music I love contains some pretty awful stuff.

Shorter ranter: Jessica needs to write about "the general tone that women must be subservient to their men (in either relationships or in the workplace)" (from the Shameless Self-Promotion thread), but nobody should ever criticize or analyze culture!

How would that work, then?

I was trying to question the content of Jessica's book (and this site) rather than criticize it, though cirticism is part of the questioning process. However that is off the point I was trying to make about telling an artist what they should or shouldn't create. I am not going to tell Jessica what she should write (though I will give some suggestions of what direction I think the feminist movement should take). The content of hip hop isn't the problem, it's the fact that people buy it, and that's usually because an alternative (a new trend if you will) is not promoted. It is better to build an alternative than try to change something.

"I am not going to tell Jessica what she should write (though I will give some suggestions of what direction I think the feminist movement should take). " - Ranter

Ah, yes! Because the feminist movement DEFINITELY needs direction from men. I mean, what do we women think we are doing, with our own ideas about what is important to us and everything? Surely we need a man to provide the really critical insights about women's experience. I think it's safe to say, Ranter, that you ARE being absurd. The question is, do you know it?

Go Charity!

Ranter,
A few pointers:
Culture does not exist in a vacuum.
Cultural output (music, visual art, film etc etc) engages with and reflects the culture in which it is created.
Critical engagment with cultural output is not by definition pejorative. Ever heard the phrase "critically acclaimed"?
The content of hip hop and all other forms of cultural output IS "the problem", because it reflects wider trends and cultural "truths", which is why we feminists discuss it.
Have you tried reading some of Feministing's archives?
It seems you are a new reader here, and could probably do with a bit of a catch-up.
I mean this sincerely, not as a put-down.

The more you fight against misogynist hip hop, the more it will attempt to assert itself. Content means nothing if no one buys it. Do you have a plan to convince people not to buy misogynist hip hop (I never have bought it, but that's beside the point). Criticizing artists is not going to make them change in the way that you want them to (which is why its absurd), but threaten to pull their funding will. Imus is a good example of what happens to someone when the sponsors no long approve of their antics.

PS Of course I'm new!

Ranter, how, exactly do you think you get people not to buy misogynist hip-hop if you don't raise awareness?

Isn't that the whole point of having discussions like this? To help raise awareness? To get people to think about the music they're listening to, and take action?

Imus is a good example. Why do you think that his sponsors started pulling funding? It sure wasn't because people kept quiet about his bullshit. It's because sites like this helped spread the word about his antics and helped give people a voice that his sponsors could hear.

I agree with roymacIII, but I think spreading awareness is not the same as politicizing or criticizing something. I am all about spreading awareness. Awareness is essentially the same thing as promoting something which is what I was advocating from the start. In other words I am saying go to the masses not the artists or the industry. However an awareness campaign will work a lot better if an alternative is also added with it.

"I agree with roymacIII, but I think spreading awareness is not the same as politicizing or criticizing something."

Explain the difference as you see it here? And don't criticize artists? So we should raise awareness about bad media messages without mentioning specific artists? Unless you think the artist is reading feministing, I'm pretty sure the blogger is speaking far more to the "masses" than the "artists" or the "industry" in this case.

And as for alternatives, there are definitely positive alternatives out there in hip hop as well as other forms of music. One feministing post is not attempting to build a social movement. That's more the role of entire organizations. Feministing is full of short opinion pieces and interesting news snippets that most of the feministing readers will find interesting, savvy?

OK. I'm going to say this once:

Art that denigrates women is already political. Feminists call attention to the political bias that is already there. We do this because ignoring problems does not make them go away, no matter what my mother told me about the mean kids on the schoolbus.

I am a literary/cultural critic, a reader, an audience for art, and, I might add, a writer myself. I, and everyone else who reads/listens to/looks at/watches art, have every right to criticize it. Art isn't some special gift from the heavens that should remain untouched by grubby human thoughts and critiques. It's human creation, it involves all the concerns of any given human being and the culture in which it's being viewed/read/etc., and criticism is a vital part of the artistic process.

I deliberately excluded Arabs and Muslims. American feminists such as the Feminist Majority supposedly supported the invasion of Afghanistan (god, really? I learned that recently) and they were not criticizing the sexism of Arab Americans in the United States. When has the criticism of sexism of African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans and Native Americans led to appropriation of feminist words by wingnuts. Besides, I don't see the US bombing Africa, Latin America, East Asia to "save their women" mostly because they don't have any oil.

msstrez, there are TONS of hip hop artists who are non-sexist and conscious. One of my favorite groups is The Coup. They were never sexist and never had to "reform" like a lot of hip hop artists.

Gee I was kind of hoping this site was trying to build a social movement.

Criticizing is a direct attack.

politicizing implies that pressure groups do the direct attacks.

Awareness is made through broadcasting, and is usually done in an attempt to spread the word to the masses rather than directly attack, or meddle politically.

I don't want to ban hip hop, but I would rather the masses were interested in something else. The key here is the masses. People want hip hop, therefore it sells and gets played.

Until most people say "hey I am tired of misogynistic hip hop, and I want something else," nothing is going to change.