I would like to hear from women who have had children. I have heard that it does take a while after birthing to get back that pre-birth 'tightness' feeling during sex, but that could just be hearsay. Does anything become ripped that would require surgery?

Otherwise, this business of how a vagina should 'look' is beyond redonkulous. They come in all colors, folds, dimensions, what have you. Indeed, women should not be made to think that one day, their labia are going to start sagging, so they'll get a lil' lift when AARP comes a-knockin' Blerf.

Christopher A. Warner says he considers himself something of a maverick, a caring physician willing to challenge medical orthodoxy in order to help women.

Yeah. He's real helpful. And caring! Why, just this morning he helped an old lady out of his way by throwing her in front of a bus!
What a guy! Where's that Nobel Peace Prize...?

**alarm** {[Warning! Snark level exceeding capacity! Snark reservoirs critical! Warning!]} **alarm*

This is crazy. The euphemistic language that the doctors use is really disturbing -- "vaginal rejuvenation" is especially creepy since it suggests some kind of nourishment but actually involves cutting away tissue. And the "medical orthodoxy" idea is ridiculous. Warner wants to think (or wants us to think) that he's fighting for women, but what he's actually doing is fostering a culture of body anxiety that is endlessly damaging. Yikes.

"I would like to hear from women who have had children. I have heard that it does take a while after birthing to get back that pre-birth 'tightness' feeling during sex, but that could just be hearsay. Does anything become ripped that would require surgery?"

At the risk of being accused a troll - I had 2 children and it took around 3 years (after the second one) for most of the tight feeling to return. But I dont feel it has returned 100%, and I dont know if it ever will. Maybe aging plays a minor role as well.

I can say the exercises do help, and maybe if I had done them more they would have had a bigger impact. But Im happy where Im at, dont really care if anyone "wished" I was tighter.

FYI - if you've never heard of or seen the Dead Ringers, this story reminds me of it immediately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Ringers_(film)

the whole idea of risking sexual pleasure in order to be more sexually appealing is really disturbing.

the whole "vaginas are ugly" rhetoric bothers me anyway, but when women start risking permanent damage to have a "pretty" vagina i get really creeped out.

what is this world coming to...

Hasn't anyone thought about the plight of Men? Too long, too short, too thick or thin, circumcised or not, too light or too dark, bent, angled or, for gods sake, hairy! Where is the doctor, even the electrologist, for these poor souls who don't measure up to some standard set by the very treatment specialists who they turn to for help?

I would just love to see men lined up at the electrologists for a bit of a trim in the crotch!

Of course, I shouldn't take this so lightly. Once men start to be judged by an unreachable standard, they may just keep their pants on, or at least turn out the lights.

Hymenoplasty.. HYMENOPLASTY?! Seriously?

Man, I wish I didn't just read that.

I don't know where that picture comes from, but it seems to me revealing that the clitoris isn't even labeled.

And I'm not expert in "vaginal rejuvenation," but doesn't exercising your kagal muscles make it possible to apply a lot more pressure during sex, if that's what you're into, and make the woman's orgasms more intense?

Meanwhile, I think one or two people may already be working the "manhood enhancement" beat.

The question really is, what's next. Clearly the internal organs. I'm thinking probably the uterus, because it's all feminine and stuff. I even have the perfect tagline:

"Womb Rejuvenation: Because Beauty Shouldn't Be Skin Deep."

ew. ew. ew. ew. ew.

any woman who'd seriously entertain the possibility of cosmetic vagina-tightening surgery for even a split-second must be incredibly insecure. insecure enough to be involved with a man who'd say "you're not tight enough," because where else are you going to get the idea that your vaj is not optimally-sized?

i'm also gonna go out on a limb and guess that these men are probably only concerned about their own sexual pleasure.

Regarding vaginal tightness post-childbirth, I don't recall worrying about possible loss of tightness but about possible pain. I couldn't say for sure if there's a difference or not, or if there was a difference after son number two but not after son number one.
It is possible to have tears going either up or down from the vagina, which hurts. It is exceedingly common, with a hospital birth, to have an episiotomy, which hurts. The episiotomy and any serious tears are generally stitched up or glued right after childbirth, and I've heard it is possible for things to heal not-quite-right, requiring later surgical repair, which isn't at all the same thing as taking a tuck in the ol' vagina to tighten that sucker up.
That pre-childbirth tightness is not always a good thing, depending on one's partners.

Maybe it's not the vagina that's not tight enough, maaaaaaybe the problem is on the other end...

Childbirth can seriously damage a woman's body - it's nothing new. I would assume that usually, if surgery is required, it is addressed by a urologist, urogynecologist, or an obgyn. A plastic surgeon might address external tissue, such as labia that a patient reports gets in the way of her normal life.

But marketing 'rejuvenation' as if it were some new revelation in surgery is kind of ridiculous. Plus, I'm sure most women would be aware if they had a medical problem. This marketing seems designed so that women will read it and wonder "Omg do I need that?" and then inspect themselves/become paranoid.

I have nothing against plastic surgery, but a lot against purposefully trying to make women feel bad about their bodies. As if I didn't hate my genitals enough.

It makes me so sad when women say they don't like their genitals. When you wake up in the morning, you should roll over on your back, touch your genitals, and say, "God, I love my clit" (or whatever you like to call it).

plenilune,
Your right, it's about insecurities, and that's what these doctors are totally counting on. However, WHY would these women be insecure in the first place? We have this whole culture that's always telling us no matter what we do, our bodies are never good enough. These doctors know that, and they're creating markets for themselves, based on it. Just like that whole anal bleaching thing (which also gets a resounding WTF from me!). I dunno, it kinda sounded like you were blaming women for being insecure, like it's a personal failing, when it's people like these doctors that create and perpetuate the insecurities.

um,
"You're right"

FRIDAY.

Last year Dr Drew covered this on his Discovery channel show.

The wife wanted it due to the changes caused by having a couple of babies. The husband stated he was fine with how things looked and felt. Post-op the wife loved the new "her" and so did the husband. I think he stated "I didn't know what I was missing."

This is my first post and I am at an ethical dilemma about what I should say about my own experiences with my ex-wife and our experiences due to the changes caused by childbirth.

Natural child birth can cause some major physical changes. Having an episiotomy on top of those changes adds more “damage� to the situation. The “prettiness� never returned, but that was not important to either of us. I found that after the several months of recovery and some normalcy came back into our lives, that I enjoyed sex more post natural child birth. There was a lot less constriction which made things feel better for me. However, she no longer had vaginal orgasms.

Foreplay had changed drastically though due to the “damage� to the clitoris. No more lazy hours of foreplay for us. Too much attention and she would orgasm and pass out leaving me to fend for myself. There was never a full recovery of these tissues, and I had to pay way too much attention to foreplay so that things would just stop after a few minutes.

No medical procedure would fix any of this. Attention to what has happened and making the changes necessary to have both people enjoy the post child birth changes is what is needed.

I have yet to hear of a female doctor doing these procedures.

BTW, I trained for two years as a midwife, and clitoral tears are extremely rare. Most tears are below the vagina, and are repaired immediately. Most sexual pain is resolved in 6 months, but some rare cases may take longer.

Episiotomies make for deeper tears with longer healing times and more complications.

Something tells me that 'Wonder Woman' would not approve.

(Can you tell I like this topic?)

I grabbed a copy of an ACOG journal with information about middle aged women and sexual dysfunction. Satisfaction with sexual activity was corelated with being African American, having a lower BMI, and having a higher mental health score. Women reporting sexual dysfunction were more likely to have a higher education level, have poor health, and to be in a significant relationship.

Women with children were slightly less likely to have sexual dysfunction, and women with more than 2 children were more than twice as likely to be having regular sex.

Oh, and I forgot to say before. Serious vaginal injury is not more likely from "natural" birth, but with birth with (sometimes necessary) interventions such as forceps.

Hilary,
How was sexual dysfunction defined in that study? I'm always so wary of that term.

*blinkblinkblink*

Anal...bleaching...?!?

No, don't tell me. I don't want to know.

Wait, there's the possibility of clitoral tearing?

Owie, owie, owie, owie.

I eagerly anticipate the day when babies gestate in lucite tanks filled with wonder nutrients. Until then, hooray for birth control.

This is pretty scary- scary that some people think of this as a positive thing and scary that real women will put themselves into debt in order to mutilate thier poor vulvas.

It reminds me of when babies are born without defined labia or penises, and the doctors decide to "make" the baby into a girl, they create her genitals through defining a vagina as something that can be penetrated. The picture - ahem - crude sketch of the vulva above reiterates this concept of a vagina being some cavernous hole that can be stretched out and become, eventually, unusable.

This really makes me sad.

cycles - I am so with you.

Everyone else: I agree on the ew factor.

When my pussy is exhausted, I sure don't call it a scourge.

I have two children. The second of which was born at home, weighed TEN pounds AND if that wasn't enough for this poor mama, he had his arm up over his head and his elbow jutting out. Needless to say, it was not very easy, yet, was somewhat satisfying in that "Damn, I just gave birth to a ten pound baby with his arm over his head, at home with no drugs" kind of way. Anyway, after both pregnancies my vagina was a bit "out of shape", but it seemed to go back. I asked my husband and he said that he hasn't noticed a difference, not that it would matter that much, our marriage is more than just sex, but... In fact, I enjoy sex more now than I did before, but I think that is from being more comfortable with me than any physical change. In my opinion, if these women are worried so much about the appearance of their vaginas to the extent that they are willing to go under the knife/laser/whatever, then they probably aren't very comfortable with their bodies overall and may never be, I firmly believe that that comfort is what leads to great sex.

somebody explain to me how it is that women don't know about the loss of sensation due to a breast hacking, 'cause this is gonna bite people the same way.

I don't know if the comments on clitoral tearing was directed at my comments, so I'll explain a little more.

Pre birth there was a hooded clitoris that was surpisingly sensitive. Post birth more of the clitoris was exposed causing much stronger reactions to stimulation.

It was shocking to have my ex scream and then curl up in the corner of the bed for many minutes after I had done pretty much nothing to her.

It is all about that image put into their heads.

When my pussy is exhausted, I sure don't call it a scourge.

That's because you're a shameless hussy.

Interesting how the same feminists who consider abortion a sacrament consider all other forms of elective surgery to be manifestations of oppression. I have had hair transplants and would like to get my penis enlarged; does that mean that I'm an oppressed man?

When my mother had me (her first child) they waited to long so she could have a "natural" childbirth rather than a C-section and ended up having to do a mid-forceps delivery in order to get me out alive. This means they went in with the forceps while I was still in the birth canal and she experienced extensive tearing and an infection. 20 years later, she has told me that she has considered this surgery given the lasting damage from that birth. I wouldn't say that my mother in an insecure woman who's only looking to gratify her husband, rather that her obgyn hopelessly bungled what should have been a routine C-section and she wants back what she would have had if not for the mid-forceps delivery. It was not her choice to stay with the natural birth idea, it was the hospital's, and she was in labor 36 hours before I was born.

I'm not saying the idea of the surgery isn't a little creepy, but I think there are people out there who have a valid reason to seek procedures like this. Also, my mother will be at the birth of my first child to make sure that what happened to her doesn't happen to me.

Genny, your points are valid, but that's not at all how this surgery is being marketed. It's being pushed as a way to make woman who have had sex "look like a virgin," for crying out loud (that's crying out loud at the ad, not you).

I've never given birth, but pelvic floor exercises have helped with a weak bladder and have the added bonus of making orgasm spasms/contractions more intense (sorry for too much information. Sometimes you need the details!)
I challenge all the women here to try this for a few weeks:
Whenever you are urinating, consciously stop the flow mid-stream, and hold for a few seconds.
Do this a couple of times whenever you go.
It has really made a difference for me, and I reckon it would help women who are struggling with "extra room" after birth.
Did I mention the more intense orgasm? ;)

Heraclitus, I completely agree that the way they're marketing this procedure is disgusting. I'm just providing an example of someone who might have the surgery for reasons other than insecurity. If this surgery was being marketed as a reconstruction surgery rather than a "rejuvenation", it would make more sense. As is, it's just another way for women to feel that they're not living up to a manufactured ideal.

And for those worried about loss of senstivity for having surgery there, I had to have my hymen removed surgically at 15 to avoid a first sexual experience rivaling the one in "The Bell Jar" (and if you really want to hear disgusting attitudes about sex, I'll tell you about the people that told my mom she should leave it in until I was 18 to "control" when I had sex). I did have stitches in the area, and in the years since I've never noticed any problems with sensitivity at all. Then again, my surgeon was a female obgyn, not a plastic surgeon.

I'm going with the "makes me want to cry" emotion.

Unfortunately, they say that they can use surgery to improve sexual dysfunction. Why bundle that up with cosmetics?

I happened on this post in my RSS reader just after I read yet another post by a Senegalese woman who is waiting for restoration surgery. She was excised - mutilated - when she was four. (For those of you who read French, her blog is at http://survivance.blogspot.com/ and well worth the reading).

So, here's another one for the "makes me want to cry" emotion.

So if you have Vagina Dentata, do you go to this guy, or an orthodontists? (did I spell that right?)

I've had three children, 7lbs10 ounces, 1lb7ounces and 8lbs 10 ounces. After the first baby, I wasn't interested in sex at all for I'd say 7 weeks or so, because I had torn when she crowned and even going to the bathroom hurt. The first few times I did have sex we were just very careful and I'd say I was feeling back to normal about 3 months after she was born. I didn't tear after either of the other children, and had sex two weeks later and three weeks later, respectively, without any pain whatsoever. My guess would be it depends on if you ripped, how badly, how quickly you heal and so on and so forth. I do have some lasting issues from pregnancy and childbirth, mostly dealt with by doing kegels, but I've never had an issue with not feeling tight enough or anything like that during sex. If I did have an issue, I'd see an obgyn that specializes in something to help, absolutely, but I don't seem how trimming your labia will help with effects of childbirth. I don't feel like childbirth caused mine to sag or anything, but maybe I'm in the minority? I also really don't see how a surgery to repair/restore the hymen would help with post- childbirth issues. I'm sure there a few cases of women who legitimately need vaginal surgery to help them, but I don't see how plastic surgery to the vulva helps anything.

There is an entire editorial in that issue of the ACOG journal titled "When Does a "Less Than Perfect" Sex Life Become Female Sexual Dysfunction?"

It is the Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Vol. 107, No. 4, Apr. 2006.

I do not think these procedures are "marketed" for post birth injury, which I have pointed out is rare but indeed does happen. I respect the right of women to tell their own horror stories or those of women in their family, but I hope the writers and readers realize that not all people opting for "natural" birth (again, definitions differ on this) end up risking their babies' lives and end up with a forceps birth, a damaged vagina and sexual dysfunction. Very rare.

And joem, I would say yes it does, or one with a negative self image (I would not use the term oppressed), on top of a very lonely one I would assume, with that physical description and attitude!

I remember reading about the practice of putting in an extra stitch when closing up the episiotomy.

Its name? The husband's knot.

The amazing thing to me about any of this is that even just defining female sexuality as something central or primary to the vagina (rather than the vulva entire, the internal and external clitoris, the WHOLE body) still isn't an easy tip-off for any woman that this isn't about women's pleasure and sexuality at all. Ah, the stench of heteronormativity in the morning.

Believe it or not? We've had more than one cosmetic surgeon focusing on female genitalia show up at the Scarleteen boards -- which is a site designed for women in high school and college -- trying to sell them these procedures. Don't even get me started.

(Then there was the couple who tried to market a cornstarch powder for better vaginal "tightness" -- are you crossing your legs yet? -- and wanted us to promote it.... the ew never ends.)